Datisi's University [game over!]

[jjh927]

Just checking in immediately to say I'm on holiday until tomorrow and VOTE: Whemestar

[jjh927]

Caught up.

Gonna continue to vote wheme for now. My holiday was great- I went to go hang with like ~20 friends and play board games for a week.

I would like Osuka to elaborate on her Dusa vote.

The Drew wagon has some interest to me but I won't go into detail on why yet

[jjh927]

Caught up.

Gonna continue to vote wheme for now. My holiday was great- I went to go hang with like ~20 friends and play board games for a week.

I would like Osuka to elaborate on his Dusa vote.

The Drew wagon has some interest to me but I won't go into detail on why yet

ebwop as I seem to have muddled pronouns while joint isoing the two of them, which maybe reveals a bit more of what I am interested in here

[jjh927]

You two seem to be going back and forth on something inconsequential. Do you want to look at Aristeia's vote on Drew instead?

[jjh927]

Drew wagon was of interest to me in the sense that both Drew and the wagon could easily all be town, rather than of interest in the sense that I might vote there.

In other words, with it being the biggest wagon and all I was waiting for a scummy hop on vote to scrutinise and one seems to have appeared

Aristeia, please elaborate on your drew read

[jjh927]

I'd like a Dusa

Aristeia, please elaborate on your drew read

I could go for a Dusa read too

I think Osuka/Dusa interactions are pretty one-directional in a kinda unnatural way and there's something to unpack there but I would rather discuss it with one or both of them directly

[jjh927]

@jjh

does not seem inconsequential to me am trying to gain better understanding as to how ranger makes posts and such / still feels odd to me

if you’d like to explain why inconsequential to you you can might certainly help me to have outside view of but it’s not like i’m just going to stop thinking about it because it’s not noteworthy to you

have looked at aristeia naked vote likely inspired by other voters and reads of them if town like is there something specific i should be thinking about regarding?

It's fairly straightforward.
I post, Ranger puts me at +town when everyone else is kinda rand.
I don't post, everyone else posts, lots of people go +town above rand
I go down relative to others

It's just how it goes. If you want to go into the future you will probably watch me go back up again

[jjh927]

Talk to me about Fire then

[jjh927]

i rememebr someone said he was townie for a reason and i thought it was a good reason when i read it.

Do you remember who said it or roughly what they said? Or was this some highly persuasive but forgettable reasoning?

[jjh927]

What was persuasive about that post to you?

[jjh927]

So, Fire Assassin makes a post doing nothing other than calling out Dusa as performative, but the thing you remember is GuiltyLion pointing out that this makes FA towny?

[jjh927]

Not just, you know, thinking that FA is towny for calling out Dusa in the first place?

[jjh927]

Talk to me about Andres then

[jjh927]

Townie how? Elaborate on what makes Andres townie

[jjh927]

Why do you believe Andres could not post in this way as scum? And could you provide some examples and go into detail on this enthusiastic vibe you are getting and why it must come from town?

[jjh927]

What's different then? What posts make you think "Andres is beyond his scumrange here"

[jjh927]

What's different then? What posts make you think "Andres is beyond his scumrange here"

It's really weird the way you're framing these questions

I mean, if you elaborate the first time then I don't have to ask the same question in 3 different ways

[jjh927]

If you'd have opened with 384 I'd have been like "Sure, cool" but now I'm like "What does 'enthusiastic' mean to you"

You gave a lazy answer saying Andres was townie for enthusiasm. My questions are phrased to get you to think about your reads if you actually believe what you are saying and you are trying to place people, and just generally to keep probing because it's helpful to me at the minimum

[jjh927]

I'd like a Dusa

Aristeia, please elaborate on your drew read

I could go for a Dusa read too

I think Osuka/Dusa interactions are pretty one-directional in a kinda unnatural way and there's something to unpack there but I would rather discuss it with one or both of them directly

so why didn't you ask either of us about it

I did!

[jjh927]

Drew wagon was of interest to me in the sense that both Drew and the wagon could easily all be town, rather than of interest in the sense that I might vote there.

In other words, with it being the biggest wagon and all I was waiting for a scummy hop on vote to scrutinise and one seems to have appeared

do you think any vote at all on Drew at that point would have been a "scummy hop on", or is it something in Ari's vote specifically that you found scummy?

and do you think scum is more or less likely to naked vote onto a leading wagon like that?

I was anticipating that it was a very easy point for a scum player to jump on the wagon without much of a reason, so I was waiting for a naked vote, a sheep vote, or something similarly low effort. This was one that led into the other. Imo the naked vote was more likely to come from scum, but not significantly. Beyond that, I didn't have much of a read on Ari, and it was a great position to rectify that.

[jjh927]

Does it feel that way? I've not even called you scum yet and everyone else on Drew's wagon is varying levels of probably town

[jjh927]

well you're basically implying its scummy to vote drew? that feels like you are trying to keep people from voting him?

I said nothing of the sort. I believed a low effort vote was likely to come from scum and you came in with a low effort vote so I gave you the business over it. Low effort vote there comes from either scum or lazy town, but I expect lazy town to be able to demonstrate flexible thinking in response to probing and gradually build up reads rather than clarifying and defending a static postion like you did

[jjh927]

I'm a lot more bothered by your failure to demonstrate town thought process on the townreads you have claimed to hold than I am by the drew vote.

For example, your reference to GL's post on FA feels much more likely to have come from scum paying attention to how other players are being read than it does a town player trying to place people, particularly given you managed to totally forget the very simple reason given for the read you supposedly agreed with

[jjh927]

I'm trying to let you know where I stand and why I do on the chance that you are town, since you might just be genuinely misunderstanding me

[jjh927]

Surely nobody who plays forum mafia would knowingly misrepresent someone

[jjh927]

I think the reasons ultimately given are more likely to come from things scum would notice than town, and I think that Aristeia's thought process is demonstrably rigid and defensive. There are believable conclusions but the work being explained to get there is going backwards, probably because she was caught off guard by the immediate inquisition on the townreads she was supposedly sheepinhg

[jjh927]

I think her reads have been necessitated or at least encouraged by the game state rather than being trully formed by placing people in the game

And I think I'm good to vote here now.

VOTE: Aristeia

[jjh927]

Since it was asked, I'll go back a bit just to say I don't even have a particularly strong independent Drew read. I just think he's probably a bit more likely to be town than rand, but rand is pretty decent odds for someone being town. The ratio of game content/early game shitposting is looking relatively positive at this early stage.

That aside, scum!Aristeia makes town!drew a lot more likely from my point of view so my current confidence compounds things a bit

[jjh927]

jjh feels like hes chainsawing for drew and i would yeet him without hesitation if drew flips mafia

well you're basically implying its scummy to vote drew? that feels like you are trying to keep people from voting him?

Explain.

He said the people on my wagon are probably town.

And why is saying 'hey Drew might be town's causing such an issue with you?

And someone asked, but I haven't felt any urgency to move off of Osuka at any point, and nothing they have said in there brief catch up here compels me to move.

I don't get there vote on Ranger as well(osuka I mean), have you played with them before?

I probably need to go into sheep mode, so far no real strong scum vibes I am getting yet.

Who wants a loyal sheep to follow them?

the point that I am making is that his goal is to prevent more people from voting you by saying scum or lazy town would hop onto your wagon.

him saying the people on your wagon are likely town do not have anything to do with this.

If that was my goal, why didn't I do that before you hopped on the wagon in a lazy and poorly thought out manner

[jjh927]

You can focus on the drew wagon bit all you want but that was just the basis for the push which caught you off guard. It's not some critical component of my read, nor is it going to feature in a push on anyone else because I have already done it once and that would make it less useful for placing someone. Right now of course, I have already found scum

[jjh927]

You don't actually have a reason drew is scum and that was your first problem

[jjh927]

I don't see why you need to talk to me if I am "lazy scum" who is caught in your "ingenious trap"

Because ultimately I am still pushing and placing at all times

[jjh927]

I don't just decide someone is scum and then put them in a corner and never speak to them again, especially in day 1

If you were town and had interest in resolving it as a disagreement things would play out differently than how you've been digging further down as you believe gamestate necessitates

[jjh927]

That's still not what I am trying to tell you or get you to do.

There are two things you have refused, in the simplest possible terms:
1. Someone who scumreads you does not have to be scum
2. Someone who scumreads you might consider that you may also be town

I usually expect all town players to be capable of thinking along these lines eventually. I have been continually prodding you for any semblence of town thought process

[jjh927]

The point is more that the longer you have gone on entrenching your position and pretending things are simpler than they are for the sake of an easier defence, the more confident I have become on my read on you.

[jjh927]

For me Drew's towngame is a lot more earnest and serious than scumgame, he mostly memes as scum I seem to remember.

Okay so I wasn't misremembering that and his ratio of shitposting/game content is actually important

That's good

[jjh927]

That's also a pretty reasonable take on the situation as it's definitely a secondary objective

I think Ari felt very threatened by the push when the reality was I was still testing her

[jjh927]

Like, she felt that her only way out was to paint me as scum and worked backwards from there

She's not tried to work with me or understand my perspective at all despite me laying it out

[jjh927]

I did kinda want to talk about this GL post at some point, actually

I have an issue with the Aristeia wagon in that I played a game a while back with scum!Ari where town got absolutely suckered and she was in control of the game , playing town leader and leading us astray, I felt so hoodwinked at the end.

and I feel like she's made no real effort so far and the stuff people are registering as scummy is not stuff that scum!Ari is incapable of faking or doing well

so it seems a little too easy to me, I haven't found a reason to TR her but I'm skeptical that scum!Ari couldn't or wouldn't be doing more right now if she needed to

I looked through that game and Aristeia kinda looks the same except if nobody significantly challenged her? So like, is the point "Scum!Ari is too good and you'd never catch her" or what

[jjh927]

The point is she did all that later and nobody challenged her in any particular way. It's literally the same but she has more time to think.

You can ask "Why wouldn't she be better prepared" all you like- the important bit is that she was not, and that the things she used for reasoning are things that scum would remember and be more likely to refer back to when trying to come up with an explanation.

If she's as good a scum player as you say she should be a good enough town player to understand things she has refused to over the course of the last few pages. That was all the flexibility I was looking for

[jjh927]

You realise in that game that she came up with reasoning from stuff after she joined the wagon, right? Like, vote comes from gamestate, reasoning comes later when she figures it out

[jjh927]

Now here's another claim I'm interested in:

The ratio of game content/early game shitposting is looking relatively positive at this early stage.

What posts are you qualifying from Drew as "game content", and why?

There's probably a few too many on ranger, a couple on ina, a handful interacting with you and Dannflor.

[jjh927]

what I really want from you is an explanation as to why this isn't town. You've written a believable narrative as to why it's scum, sure, whatever, why are you confident that your narrative is reality when there's an equally compelling town!narrative available and the base probability is stacked in favor for that one. I don't think posting 356 and 360 is at all unlikely to come from town, yet you're treating it as a scum tell because you can imagine scum doing it. Is your claim that town!Ari would have different or better reasoning for voting drew and TRing these players? My claim is that scum!Ari could certainly have better reasoning, I've seen it, so I'm not inclined to favor a scum explanation for her reads here.

Scum!Ari could have better reasoning but surely town!Ari WOULD have better reasoning? Regardless of this, the reason it went on so long was because I was trying to rule out town!Ari myself. I think the reaction to my push only comes from scum, since town should be trying to solve. Joint iso me and Ari and see if you can find one instance of Ari trying to determine my alignment

[jjh927]

Scum!Ari could have better reasoning but surely town!Ari WOULD have better reasoning?

Not necessarily, no. that's my point.

Well yes, but what about the rest of the quote here?

[jjh927]

Or are you after an impossible level of proof on Ari here?

[jjh927]

Why wouldn't scum!Ari come prepared up front with a more justified read on Fire the first time you asked about it? Why does scum!Ari even need to townread Andres at this point in the game - do you think she planned to vote drew first then decided she could

only

justify that vote if she also faked a TR on Andres? Surely scum!Ari would be capable of coming up with her own independent reason to scumread drew.

Since you asked all this earlier I guess I'll answer all the questions explicitly

-Scum!Ari messed up and didn't expect a full inquisition on it.
-Ari didn't need to townread Andres until they said the wagon on Drew was clean. She wasn't expecting a full inquisiton on her vote and thought she would get away with basically just the logic someone else had posted to explain her vote before she did.
-Scum!Ari could have, but didn't. I would have been equally interested in any reasoning given.

You're pretty caught up in hypotheticals of what scum!Ari could have done rather than looking at the reality of what Ari did

[jjh927]

3p speculation probably is meaningless, yes

[jjh927]

3p speculation probably is meaningless, yes

do you think dusa noticing that i was discouraged by you wanting me to drop line of thinking is alignment indicative?

Not in a way I can discern

Dusa looks like maybe town but it's hard to see through the layers

[jjh927]

Yeah I need to figure out what happens next to be honest
Dust has cleared and Ari looks town now

UNVOTE:

I've still got that outstanding inquiry on Osuka/Dusa interactions being super weird to me though, but Osuka avoiding my question is just annoying rather than alignment indicative and I'd need the right timing for a good push there

[jjh927]

I can see her actually trying to place people and I'm now convinced that the reason she wasn't doing that when I was going on the offensive was because she was annoyed

[jjh927]

The whole reasoning for the reads I asked about feeling more like stuff that scum would note is still giving me some unease but overall once I backed out it was a lot easier to see the things I was trying to find to prove myself wrong during the push, to the point I think she's reasonable likely to be town after all

That being said, there's certainly interesting things to look into with regards to how people have positioned themselves around the argument

[jjh927]

This is some convenient timing

I know this was from ages ago but yeah

I would like Osuka to elaborate on his Dusa vote.

[jjh927]

I've generally liked your catchup but it has the negative of coming at a probably required time for your survival so if I still have the opportunity right now I'd like to prod you a bit on my own terms, but otherwise I guess I'll have to not sleep some time in order if that's when you're around

[jjh927]

Gonna assume that I've missed the window this time so I'll telegraph my next move instead

VOTE: furtiveglance

[jjh927]

Why did furtiveglance go up a ton for that one post on page 29

[jjh927]

For what it's worth Norwe, I would imagine that scum!Ranger would essentially be following the Ranger formula by going through each page and thinking about where people should move up or down as if Ranger was town, but with added thinking about where people could move up or down based on gamestate. It'd be a roughly indistinguishable approximation due to the formulaic approach being easy to follow, but with some amount of control and convenience to look out for

[jjh927]

So like, I think Ranger is probably town here? But, I can't really say more than probably right now

You on the other hand feel pretty town to me

[jjh927]

I thought I had way too many townreads, but then revisiting everyone my instincts aren't currently telling me to townread got me to a neat little potential scumpile of furtiveglance, Andres, Wheme, Titus, and Osuka to look at

[jjh927]

Speaking of one of those- Ranger, why was Andres so high up on like page 30 before completely tanking

[jjh927]

I think [Dusa, Aristeia, jjh, GL, Fire Assassin] is like a very solid town block

I'm in agreement here and I'd throw Norwee in there as well.

I haven't stated as much while reading through but I agree jjh backing off Ari feels townie and I also liked his engagement with osuka as well as his scumpool in 876 as that's reasonably close to where I want to look today. also I am not frankly paying much attention to changes in Ranger's readslists but I like that he is and feel like it's a townie thing to do.

I do have one question though @jjh what are your reads on KKFC/RCE? I feel like they're notable omissions from your pool, are you townreading those players and if so why?

osuka is still a mystery to me I don't think I can earnestly intellectually defend a TR there but at the same time I just don't get scumvibes from him and cannot muster interest in voting there

VOTE: Sail
this is starting to feel like a pretty good vote though. one other thought I had just now on 709 is that Sail seems to largely agree with me that Wheme is scummy/not worthy of a TR, yet never voted Wheme themselves and is using Wheme's scumminess as reason to vote Norwee instead. And then even when they unvote Norwee they still don't move onto Wheme, despite even making it clear that they don't necessarily agree with Norwee still. it gives me vibes that Sail doesn't actually have a genuine uninformed read on Wheme nor urgency to resolve his alignment

You've kinda dived straight into the bottom of my townreads there, not gonna lie
KKFC feels kinda town from the catchup and my gut is just like "fine" but there's not really enough content yet, while RCE almost made the cut for the bottom pile and I have some questions I want to follow up on if I can catch RCE at the right time in a sort of friendly conversation kind of way

[jjh927]

Also that's a good point on Sail

[jjh927]

It means that they're people I want to keep a close eye on because I think they're reasonably likely to be town but could easily be scum, so I'd rather interact with them cordially rather than piling on pressure but still try to place them further with those interactions

[jjh927]

Oooh, I realise why that's unclear now

Yeah, I meant that GL was taking a look at my bottom of the barrel townreads. not that doing so has made me read him as weaker town. If anything he's gone up because they're good people to ask about

[jjh927]

What about the people on the wagons, Titus

Who do you townread

[jjh927]

I think my question for Wheme is why does he think Ranger not putting him at the bottom of her reads is alignment indicative. That'd only be alignment indicative if Wheme and Ranger were both scum together, surely

[jjh927]

I'm loud with the loud bits

My main (active) tools are high pressure and low pressure

[jjh927]

In response to your earlier observation on Osuka- Yes, I think the gamestate was shifting towards an Osuka lim rapidly. The catchup needed to be good, so there is pressure to perform as either alignment, so the actual catchup itself isn't as strong a reason to heavily townread- not that it has stopped me much


And regarding furtiveglance, I was just wondering why that one post affected Ranger's read so much

[jjh927]

hmm I'm actually more interested in the meta claims about Ranger being fine with a lazy Wheme wagon in a previous game and her chronically scumreading you historically.

If you've a history of chronically scumreading a slot despite them flipping town, do you have no qualms scumreading them after realizing this?

I

thought

I knew WhemeStar's meta; I was wrong. Despite my attempts to figure out how/where I went wrong, I haven't. I'm trying to figure him out; I've yet to succeed. I don't know how to read WhemeStar. Even now, I think he's town, yet I'm not sure.

As for laziness, I

prefer

not being lazy with my vote; I'll still be lazy on occasion anyway.

That's part of where the question I asked Wheme was gonna go but I don't want to spoil any juicy bits

[jjh927]

I'm not discounting it; I'm considering it a possibility

[jjh927]

Osuka definitely became more likely to be town in my estimation following the catchup but is still one of my most unclear slots overall that happens to fall at the bottom end of my reads

[jjh927]

What about the people on the wagons, Titus

Who do you townread

[jjh927]

What about the people on the wagons, Titus

Who do you townread

I like GL, Dann, furtive, DD and NorwegianboyEE.

I am more about setting up chess pieces than pushing my own agenda yet. Straight up need more info. I'll get reactions until I get what I need.

Isn't that like your scumplay but you're just being transparent about doing it?

[jjh927]

Not sure what you're doing here but I'd typically expect to see you pick up some townreads, defend the odd townread when one of them gets attacked, and then do whatever passes for day 1 vca that is somewhat informed by your reads and those interactions which you don't seem to have had yet

[jjh927]

Aha! It's Mr Wheme Park himself

[jjh927]

I think my question for Wheme is why does he think Ranger not putting him at the bottom of her reads is alignment indicative. That'd only be alignment indicative if Wheme and Ranger were both scum together, surely

[jjh927]

It is different from previous games but why is that alignment indicative?

[jjh927]

What would scum!ranger achieve by artificially placing you in the middle of her readslist rather than the bottom?

[jjh927]

Do you think there is maybe a detail you have left out around Ranger's historic approach to you?

[jjh927]

Oh, and I'll double dip on questions and also ask- is there anything else on the readslist that 'doesn't make sense' to you other than you not being at the bottom of it?

[jjh927]

Do you think there is maybe a detail you have left out around Ranger's historic approach to you?

I don’t get this

So you're fine with not mentioning you were literally just scum in a game Ranger was town in?

[jjh927]

Oh, and I'll double dip on questions and also ask- is there anything else on the readslist that 'doesn't make sense' to you other than you not being at the bottom of it?

Uhm lots of our townreads and scumreads are flips

Is you having opposite reads to Ranger strange based on your previous games?

[jjh927]

Maybe after playing a game with you as scum someone might approach placing you differently? And sure, Ranger scumread you for all of day 1 in that game, but from day 2 onwards you were at the top end of the town pile

[jjh927]

So you mean, Ranger ended up being wrong about your scumgame and wrong about your towngame in quick succession and in this game now has you in the middle of her readslist? And you find this strange?

[jjh927]

Yeah and then she did it again and was wrong

Do you actually expect me to believe you don't think she can evolve in her capability to read you

[jjh927]

Do you have more than 4 townreads

[jjh927]

Wheme previously stated that he disagreed with Ranger's townreads AND scumreads which implies he should have stronger and more diverse opinions

[jjh927]

As of right now he kinda agrees with a couple and disagrees with a couple

If he were to address Ranger's middle tier townreads I'm pretty sure it would destroy his "disagreeing with everything Ranger says" narrative

[jjh927]

What are you gaining though? Ranger isn’t even that town for you. Also going through your iso I saw you had some questions for me if you could catch me around.

I'm gaining quite a lot of information on Wheme


And yeah, I think a decent start is that I'd like you to elaborate on your Fire Assassin read

[jjh927]

As of right now he kinda agrees with a couple and disagrees with a couple

If he were to address Ranger's middle tier townreads I'm pretty sure it would destroy his "disagreeing with everything Ranger says" narrative

I mean it’s a large theme though? Don’t really have a read on every slot I usually just pick or certain people stand out to me on day 1 and I stick with that group

Yeah but it seems pretty disingenuous of you to say you disagree entirely with Ranger's readslist only to have about 6 stances yourself, about a third of which agree with Ranger

[jjh927]

Wasn't your whole point that her readslist is so far-fetched for you that it must be made up

[jjh927]

Don't think I'm gonna get much more immediate response out of jabbing Wheme so yeah, guess it is time

VOTE: Whemestar

[jjh927]

I am currently on a train but don't want to miss a good chance to discuss reads in some respect with Ina so I'm gonna phonepost an ordered readslist on how I am feeling right now without easy access to references

Town

Aristeia
Dannflor
ina marija
Dusa
GuiltyLion
NorwegianboyEE
Fire Assassin

Also town probably

Ranger
Osuka
camelCasedSnivy
RCEnigma
Sail
KatyKimFanClub
Doctor Drew

There is no null tier

Scum??

furtiveglance
Andresvmb
Titus
Whemestar

[jjh927]

But yeah I'd like to encourage ina in particular to peruse my reads because I realise she's absolutely in my town reads but I have very little idea where we overlap on thoughts right now

Anyone else is welcome as well I guess

[jjh927]

My town tier is all an effectively interchangeable level of high confidence, fwiw

With Aristeia, I pushed and continued to look for something and ultimately found a consistent town behaviour/approach


I would definitely like to refine the bottom tier if we're in a similar ballpark. I've felt surprisingly alone on a lot of my scumpile considering how many people I think notionally agree with bits of it. I think it might be the current gamestate though

[jjh927]

And for what it's worth- my running at people approach doesn't normally result in a full reversal. Sometimes I just back off after seeing something to make me hesitate, and sometimes the absence of what I am looking for is sufficient for me to prove a negative. In this case I feel very confident on Aristeia town

[jjh927]

I guess I can clarify that the reason I'm scumreading Wheme so much after today's interactions are that he dug down rather than shrugging and going off in a different direction after being confronted by the weakness in his thought process. I remember town!Wheme being amenable to having it pointed out when he's using bad reasoning and going in a more logical but still Wheme-driven direction, whereas scum!Wheme has more resistance to moving stance.

In short, I think town!Wheme is much more fluid than scum!Wheme, and I believe experiments with pressure have determined his state of matter

[jjh927]

Like, the reason I was grilling Wheme about his Ranger read wasn't because it wasn't a reasonable stance to have on the game. It was because his reasoning to get there was bad, which presented the opportunity to take him through it in a way where I think I know how town!Wheme would respond. Quizzing Wheme about his reasoning is a good way to see how he's thinking, and he would have shown a different thought process if he was town

[jjh927]

jjh I take it that was meant for me? So you agree with some of my SRs? I’m glad you’ve changed your mind on Aristeia, though when reading your inquisition around #449 and the confidence you expressed in 480, I had alarm bells ringing.

I'm mainly leaving you to your catchup. My posts right now are primarily for ina

[jjh927]

I guess I can clarify that the reason I'm scumreading Wheme so much after today's interactions are that he dug down rather than shrugging and going off in a different direction after being confronted by the weakness in his thought process.

specifically with regards to past experience bottom of readslist thing or with regards to entire ranger read in general?

It's more about my understanding of Wheme's general attitude as a person and the way his thought process and behaviour differs when he is town

The points I was asking about were irrelevant to my read- I wanted to see how he would respond, particularly under a middle to growing level of pressure

[jjh927]

Town!Wheme would probably have disregarded it and be looking at something else though

For scum!Wheme right now his collection of Ranger related nonsense is all he has

[jjh927]

The readslist difference thing was a latter point I asked about, not the first and more important thing for the reaction

[jjh927]

Oh right, you did mean that then. So you think that argument had merit?

[jjh927]

Edgy how?

[jjh927]

As a general rule, it is better to ask about things you don't get rather than just pointing it out and saying you don't understand as though your lack of understanding makes it scum indicative.


If it helps in this particular case, the first thing that got me with Ari was when she said I was like the lead character of a bad detective novel. That is basically exactly what I was doing and what I generally do when I am pushing someone like that on day 1. I felt very called out. Channeling that kind of persona ups the pressure because of how unreasonable it is. I don't think that scum!Ari, observing a player behaving as such, decides to add more fuel to the fire with a line like that, given the likely reaction. Reality is that I respected it a lot. I suppose the comment was possibly inspired by my avatar, but at any rate it was around that point in time that to me, Ari's town thought process was transparently visible

[jjh927]

-Has reads consistent with what I would anticipate from town!Ranger but which would equally be fakable by scum!Ranger
-Does not appear to be manipulating the gamestate to a particular end from my perspective
-Likely to be town due to the ratio of town/mafia (yes this is true of anyone) and easier to place in a more developed gamestate

[jjh927]

It's certainly something I'm keeping an eye out for more in Ranger, particularly given I don't think anything else significantly alignment indicative could come out from her on day 1

[jjh927]

I'd love it if this Wheme wagon took off personally

[jjh927]

You’re welcome to try convincing me.

Would it be better if I gave you reasons he is not town, gave you reasons he is scum, or gave you reasons why you should sheep me and my epic track record for day 1 scum eliminations

[jjh927]

The biggest problem I can see this game is that all the players I want to work together to build a wagon with have conflicting strong opinions on different slots that basically means everyone is off doing their own thing

[jjh927]

last time i checked i was in the second highest and now im in the second lowest

what a snivy does to a slot

Your predecessor did a cool post and got a town pass from basically everyone and then did nothing with. The town pass expired shortly before you repped in

[jjh927]

These are about where my reads are at. I'm feeling a bit disengaged, I might as well go ISO someone.

Town:

Dannflor
GuiltyLion
ina marija
jjh
Dusa

Leaning town:

furtiveglance
Andresvmb
Doctor Drew
FA

Null, slightly town:

RCE
Aristeia

Null, slightly scum:

camelCasedSnivy
WhemeStar

Leaning scum:

Titus
Ranger
NorwegianboyEE (not totally sure though)

Scum:

osuka

VOTE: osuka

Spoiler:

[jjh927]

Sail, could you give your current thoughts on Norwe

[jjh927]

Does anyone want to do anything while we wait for Sail to exist?

If nothing else make sure you have put sufficient thought into and then sent in how much study time you are putting in

[jjh927]

I think this game is kinda weird with how entrenched the wagons have been

The sail wagon is basically just the doctor drew wagon 2.0 and then aside from the osuka wagon which briefly existed between this, people outside the sail wagon group haven't been able to organise into anything despite my repeated attempts to try and find something

[jjh927]

What does the professor's family tree look like to you, Dusa

[jjh927]

You've tended to be quite reactive so I'm not sure where you're actually at right now at this moment

[jjh927]

I think this game is kinda weird with how entrenched the wagons have been

The sail wagon is basically just the doctor drew wagon 2.0 and then aside from the osuka wagon which briefly existed between this, people outside the sail wagon group haven't been able to organise into anything despite my repeated attempts to try and find something

Do you think this has any implications since you bring it up?

It's just weird. I don't think I can draw any conclusions from it without a flip, and I'm not sure if a flip actually helps either.

Biggest implication is I think we're lacking a lot of info that would normally have been generated at this point in day 1

[jjh927]

You have Titus and Andres pretty low down considering their recent content. Did it not do anything for you?

[jjh927]

It honestly looked pretty town to me, yeah

[jjh927]

Which is causing problems because I definitely have too many townreads but at the same time I'd rather deal with those problems and eventually reach a correct conclusion

[jjh927]

It sorta caught me off-guard but it was basically a whole bunch of posts with clear Titus-type reasoning on various slots which I'm not sure there's any real reason to make as scum

[jjh927]

Why does the sudden unexpected wagon have to be on Ranger

[jjh927]

Titus, do you have any thoughts on how entrenched the wagon comps have been up to this point, particularly upon comparing the sail wagon with the drew wagon?

[jjh927]

If I'm honest I normally totally disregard your VCA antics even later in the game but this is a temporary lapse in judgment where I'm willing to listen and hoping you'll say something more impressive than "this points to a svt"

Pedit: that looks maybe like something

[jjh927]

I'm kinda feeling like Fire Assassin and Osuka might be scum together

[jjh927]

It has taken me like a bajillion years to reach this conclusion but Fire Assassin was part of the shift towards the Sail wagon despite A. scumreading osuka and B. Never voting osuka

Going over them, their interactions do kinda read like unrehearsed SvS

[jjh927]

You know I noticed it

[jjh927]

I was an ingame person once

[jjh927]

Alisae why didn't you sheep dead me like you said you would

[jjh927]

I thought there was a reasonable chance you could have got osuka, yeah, but you weren't gonna make it to the end

[jjh927]

I think with you in particular, when you put more effort in with your scumgame it becomes increasingly obvious you are working backwards from a stance rather than figuring out the game.

Once you pass a certain threshold you no longer get away with being wacky old whemestar and that's that.

[jjh927]

This game was so townsided. More clears than scum. Punished for finding 3p. Lose extra kill if wrong player gets eliminated. We had no shot.

How many clears were there, Titus?

[jjh927]

To answer the question I asked Titus, in terms of investigatives there was
A 2 shot gunsmith, albeit with three false positives in the setup
2 masons who both needed to activate in order to get any benefit, who could do this no earlier than night 2, unless they managed to make it to massclaim. If one of them had flipped before massclaim, then all the utlity would have disappeared instantly.
A loyal vigilante. This is incapable of clearing someone and only worked out because andres took a risky shot that paid off.

All roles had to give scum points in order to fire, in addition to havig the above drawbacks. That reaaally does not seem like too much to me


There were a lot of protectives, but they also ran the risk of overlapping significantly on nights and wasting tpr points, particularly since the roles get more expensive to use. If the protectives ever sccessfully protected someone you'd maybe have some right to complain about the potential swingyness there

[jjh927]

Lack of scum counterplay was literally all because of greedily saving up for the extra kill

There was literally a 5spr rolecop and a 10spr roleblocker

[jjh927]

Rolecop could have had all the info norwe had about the mason role
How much of a different situation would it be with 3 mason claims?

[jjh927]

Is getting 1 extra kill even that high reward in a large theme

[jjh927]

In TPR numbers the extra kill is probably like 600

That's a lot of activated PRs for 1 kill
You probably want rolecops to know who those PRs are and roleblocks to stop them ruining your day instead
Maybe you even want the strongman kill but that was probably overpriced

[jjh927]

So yeah I guess the 610 or so tpr translated

[jjh927]

So yeah I guess the 610 or so tpr translated

directly into 50 spr, which is all you got

That could have been 1 singular extra kill

OR

3 roleblocker shots and 4 rolecop shots


I don't think you needed more kills to control people's reads. I think you needed more info and more capabilty to disrupt town PRs

[jjh927]

and if it had gone into a more drawn out PR heavy game that's when you'd rack up the big numbers to make kills with

[jjh927]

Numbers going up gives you a lot of info about how much is going on, as well

[jjh927]

In fact, the numbers tell you quite a story because you get night 1 then night 2. Lighter PRs probably only stock up on n1. You could deduce that only 2-3 people built up more tpr on day 2, meaning that you only have that many big (ie 150+tpr per use) roles to worry about. Throw in a couple of early claims eg snivy put 100 in the pot on day 1, and you start to get an accurate picture of just how much power town have opted for

[jjh927]

And then you don't fall for Ranger claiming an innocent on Enchant and then make the questionable decision to kill Enchant

[jjh927]

It is very funny seeing what dannflor claimed with hindsight

It was pretty funny at the time too

[jjh927]

Somehow ranks as only the fourth worst claim in the game

[jjh927]

Is this really what it's gonna be

Titus - large theme scumslip
WhemeStar - power level inappropriate large theme claim also claimed same flavor as dann
Furtiveglance - clever large theme PR claim, but did not live action roleplay it from the start of the game and acted the opposite of his putative role late day 1
Dannflor - investigated for kinda having some scummy dayplay here and there this is the most fair one by far and would function similarly in a normal but like fails to provide the satisfaction of a fully homegrown lim to balance out the other nonsense

state of the game

Not quite

[jjh927]

My role gets slightly less powerful if I claim it, but it's still good even if I have to claim. It would be better for me to not claim today though.

I am very interested in this claim

I think I'm at E-1.

I'm a 'Phone Hacker', which is basically a submission checker that can confirm VTs. Hence my scepticism at 3 other roles in the setup which can confirm alignments.

The way it works is 80 points for 1 check, +20 for each next one. I studied 20% D1 to get the points for a check and 100% the other days. I get told whether my target studied 100% every day so far, or not. Non-town always give me a 'no' result, so I can confirm someone who's studied fully.

I was waiting for a VT claim before I used my ability. Does anyone want to claim VT and I can check them tonight?

Not to mention, your role can confirm town power roles who haven’t studied yet!

No it can't - that would provide an ambiguous result.

Ok, if we're eliminating GL, I need one player to claim VT before the hammer. As long as they've studied 100% all days I can confirm them.

Do you check VTs or anyone who hasn't accrued tpr?

The latter.

How come nobody brought this up

[jjh927]

Enough scrutiny of claims to pick up when someone says directly contradictory things about their role?