Medieval Mafia - Game Over

[Xylthixlm]

There goes my #1 suspect. Lying as town isn't cool.

That wasn't me, btw, despite the suspect timing. (I think OGML is just catching up on mod stuff.)

Oh, and jumping into the "what is day 1 for" debate: The ideal result of day 1 is lynching scum. The second-best result is to force the scum to play their hand in order to avoid being lynched, which generates good information for later in the game. The worst result is for a townie to do something blatantly scummy, so that everyone (town and scum) jumps on them, a townie is lynched, and no useful information is gained.

[Xylthixlm]

Highest post #

DrippingGoofball - 53

zwetschenwasser - 40

Kmd4390 - 33
Thestatusquo - 27
Caboose - 26
Yosarian2 - 23
scotmany12 - 17
camn - 15
populartajo - 15
hasdgfas - 13
crywolf20084 - 7
farside22 - 7
sam.samhorn - 5
qwints - 4
stark - 4
CounselWolf - 3
Jebus - 1
Xylthixlm (rep. Simenon) - 1

vote: Jebus

It's

science

!

[Xylthixlm]

Better at what?

[Xylthixlm]

Better at what?

Finding scum than counting posts!

I'm finding scum

by

counting posts.

[Xylthixlm]

Of our other lurkers, qwints looks town, and sam.samhorn is scummy.

[Xylthixlm]

Of our other lurkers, qwints looks town, and sam.samhorn is scummy.

Aside from the number of posts, do you find Jebus scummy?

He has done absolutely nothing protown, so yes.

[Xylthixlm]

Why do you need more?

[Xylthixlm]

"Only voting him for lurking." That makes it sound bad. Hey, let's see if I can apply that to some other situations.

"Some people are only voting him for vote-hopping."

"Some people are only voting him for lying."

"Some people are only voting him for claiming scum."

That actually works pretty well. I'll have to remember it for future use.

[Xylthixlm]

Jebus is active in other games. Why is he trying to avoid attention in this one?

[Xylthixlm]

Jebus is active in other games. Why is he trying to avoid attention in this one?

To continue being worthy of being lynched if that's what you're asking.

Fixed.

[Xylthixlm]

When we lynch Jebus and he comes up scum, scotmany is next.

[Xylthixlm]

Also, why don't I have a bunch of people blindly following me? No IRC players in this game?

[Xylthixlm]

Four votes is "rushing to lynch"?

[Xylthixlm]

The difference is zwet was scummy while Jebus has done nothing scummy.

This is a fallacy. Things you

don't

do can be just as scummy as things you

do

do.

[Xylthixlm]

It's especially unsatisfying because you were tied for lowest posts at that time, so you could have just as easily voted for yourself. That makes your method highly suspect if you're town.

FoS: Xyl

I didn't feel like voting myself and then having to unvote when I made obviously protown posts.

[Xylthixlm]

The only thing you have accused Jebus of doing is lurking and being more active in other games, something you cannot call him scum for.

Yes I can.

[Xylthixlm]

Also, I just saw a "but he could be doing it as town so it's not scummy" fallacy go by.

[Xylthixlm]

Your argument seems to be that Jebus is innocent until proven guilty.

[Xylthixlm]

That's not the point. The point is that your voting method is obviously flawed, due to the fact that it lists you as an equally likely scum candidate as the person you ended up voting for. Considering the fact that we've had about 15 pages of hard content, there has got to be a better method for voting than one which, if you're protown, is proven to be inaccurate to you.

You have unrealistically high expectations for the accuracy of my voting methods. Throwing darts at a dartboard is my baseline.

[Xylthixlm]

Your argument seems to be that Jebus is innocent until proven guilty.

He is, and anyone who thinks otherwise is retarded.

Nice ad hominem. Personally, I've found that "guilty until proven innocent" works better in this game.

[Xylthixlm]

camn is awesome.

[Xylthixlm]

If I had a way of voting that was equally likely of voting town or scum, I would take it. No questions. 50% scum is better than random voting.

[Xylthixlm]

hasdgfas must be really worried about that dayvig to fish so blatantly. Self-aligned?

TSQ: you must think I'm really awesome to be able to reread the whole thread in an hour and 33 minutes (the time between when I replaced and when I voted).

[Xylthixlm]

... I didn't say the system is 50/50.

[Xylthixlm]

No, but I question why you would vote before you re-read fully.

Mainly because I never reread fully when I replace. It worked well enough in Minivitational 10.

[Xylthixlm]

I say random because if he's town, then his method is obviously just as likely to make him vote town as scum, because he was at the same number of posts at time of vote.

I would take that hypothetical "just as likely to make me vote town as scum" method. If I had it. Which I don't.

Damnit TSQ, stop making me explain myself. How can I be gnomic if I keep having to explain myself? I'm going back to my mountaintop.

[Xylthixlm]

Of our other lurkers, qwints looks town, and sam.samhorn is scummy.

I'm changing this to sam leaning town.

[Xylthixlm]

scotmany, what do you think of CounselWolf?

[Xylthixlm]

Stop jumping off a perfectly good lurker wagon just because someone does something a little bit scummy.

[Xylthixlm]

Look, we have all day to kill lurkers.

There's no time like the present.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm guessing Yosarian2 doesn't actually have two votes.

At least two of the following are scum: CounselWolf, crywolf20084, hasdgfas, Jebus, stark

Vote count fixed. -OGML

[Xylthixlm]

Okay. I am completely baffled by how scotmany12 can think that "actively lurking" is scummy, and simultaneously believe that being active on the site but not posting at all is not scummy. It doesn't work. There's no set of consistent assumptions that leads to those conclusions. I smell rationalization.

[Xylthixlm]

His general activeness means that his lack of posting here isn't because he's too busy, or has unexpected circumstances, or whatever. He's deliberately avoiding this game. That is

not

a null tell.

[Xylthixlm]

Jebus has been prodded.

Seeking a replacement for CounselWolf.

*Slow applause*

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, why did your read on sam change from scum to town?

Because I read his posts more carefully the second time.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't like Xyl not reading the full thread when replacing in. Town should always read everything to get a good read on everyone.

Too much data hurts my gut reads.

[Xylthixlm]

At least two of the following are scum: CounselWolf, crywolf20084, hasdgfas, Jebus, stark

No reactions to this?

[Xylthixlm]

Also, why don't I have a bunch of people blindly following me? No IRC players in this game?

Xyl, could you explain why this post was necessary? Seems to me like it's just there because you

want

people to blindly follow you.

I've gotten too used to being able to generate pressure wagons at whim. Bad habit.

[Xylthixlm]

Hi korejora. Be like the awesome players and jump right in.

[Xylthixlm]

populartajo, hasdgfas: Do you do this in every game you're in together?

[Xylthixlm]

Caboose is pretty much town in my eyes for the way he reacted to the second claim by zwet. Go look at it. It would take a lot of quick thinking and good acting to fake that.

QFT

[Xylthixlm]

I'm glad to see that these bandwagons are on people who are scummy. But still at lack of Jebus votes.

[Xylthixlm]

Because putting up with this shit is bad for the site, and bad for the town.

[Xylthixlm]

Well, it sure makes it harder for

me

to find scum.

[Xylthixlm]

Most people tend to concentrate their attacks on the people who are actually posting. It's kind of like the drunk looking for his keys under the lamppost because that's where the light is.

[Xylthixlm]

The mod has enough trouble finding replacements for players who actually flake from the site. Making him find replacements for people who are lurking strategically doesn't help.

[Xylthixlm]

And why are you threatening to lynch Jebus if he comes back? You should be threatening to lynch him

unless

he comes back.

[Xylthixlm]

If he's flaking on this one game he should request replacement himself. Anything else is just poor sportsmanship.

[Xylthixlm]

Quick aside: I consider flaking without notice to be poor sportsmanship, and it will get you banned from all games I mod unless you have a good excuse. If you are active elsewhere on the site, you do

not

have a good excuse.

So yes, I may be letting personal feelings about lurkers influence me. But I think there's sound meta reasons to lynch lurkers, too.

[Xylthixlm]

However, if Jebus comes back and starts posting, he better have a damn good explanation for why he was absent.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm not sure what else it could be. "He better have a damn good explanation for why he was absent, or else I'll give him a free pass"? "He better have a damn good explanation for why he was absent, or else we'll have tea and crumpets"?

Oh. I see. You think he might have the damn good explanation. I seriously doubt it.

[Xylthixlm]

And I'm convinced Jebus is flaking on this game. And that is not something he should be lynched for.

Lynched, tarred, feathered,

and

banned from all future games is more like it.

[Xylthixlm]

Another IRC player? Cool. I've got over 1000 games on IRC myself.

BTW, you missed one thing:
<Xyl> CounselWolf, crywolf20084, hasdgfas, Jebus, stark = SCUM

[Xylthixlm]

that's not a lurker list.

[Xylthixlm]

Highest post #

DrippingGoofball - 53

zwetschenwasser - 40

Kmd4390 - 33
Thestatusquo - 27
Caboose - 26
Yosarian2 - 23
scotmany12 - 17
camn - 15
populartajo - 15

hasdgfas - 13

crywolf20084 - 7

farside22 - 7
sam.samhorn - 5
qwints - 4

stark - 4

CounselWolf - 3

Jebus - 1

Xylthixlm (rep. Simenon) - 1

vote: Jebus

It's

science

!

^ That's a lurker list. Scum bolded.

[Xylthixlm]

Although now that I look at it the scum are clustered near the bottom. Funny that.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm a big fan of reading the last 3 pages and jumping right in, then catching up gradually.

[Xylthixlm]

Besides, intentional lurking on day one isn't a scumtell anyway.

I look at it like this. There are places that are well-lit and hard to hide in (actively participating), and places that are dark and easy to hide in (lurking, active lurking, bandwagon hopping, etc.). The town needs to force the scum to play in the well-lit places. A meta that prevents lurking is

terrific

for the town.

[Xylthixlm]

bold=evil lurker,

DGB - 84
shea - 56
xyl - 55
scotmany - 45
Kmd - 43
Caboose - 39
camn - 36

hasdgfas - 29

yosarian - 28
populartajo - 21
sam - 9
qwints - 8
farside - 7

crywolf - 7
stark - 5
CounselWolf - 3
Jebus - 2

Hmm, that's funny, I only needed one bold tag.

That's not what the counts were when I posted my list.

[Xylthixlm]

I take the fact that Korejora is disparaging my awesome scumhunting technique to mean I'm on the money.

[Xylthixlm]

Stop jumping

I won't jump off a perfectly good lurker wagon just because

someone does something a little bit

hasdgfas is scummy.

[Xylthixlm]

Will rectify during my break between classes tomorrow. I did most of the major reading tonight but everything I'm typing is awfully incoherent.

Everything I type is incoherent, too, but it doesn't stop me!

[Xylthixlm]

You miss things that way... I did it once on SA, but the game was on page 70+ and they have 40 posts per page. Actually, I read about half of Day 1 and the Day just before I replaced in. But still. I missed a lot.

It definitely beats never posting anything because you keep getting further and further behind, though.

[Xylthixlm]

TSQ is earning townpoints slower than the other active players.

[Xylthixlm]

No need to pressure Caboose over his softclaim now. We'll rake him over the coals for a fullclaim in a day or three.

[Xylthixlm]

MASSIVE SIMULPOST

[Xylthixlm]

First I attacked the faulty logic of a voting system that would name him as just as likely to be scum as the person he was voting at the time. I often look at what people deem scum tells, and then use those as a standard to measure those people, because players very often use their own play as scum as a standard for what they see as scummy in other people.

This is a very good observation. Of course, as you notice, the reason for my low post count wasn't because I'm generally quiet but because

I had just replaced into the game

. I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to see that, and see that the argument above doesn't apply because of it. So what was your

real

reason?

[Xylthixlm]

Softclaiming is a scumtell when it's done without a good enough reason. It seems like Caboose had a good enough reason.

[Xylthixlm]

Yos2 is too awesome.

HoS: qwints

.

[Xylthixlm]

Shea has not learned the art of mafia jujitsu. You must cultivate inner calm.

[Xylthixlm]

Korejora is obvtown here.

[Xylthixlm]

sam, context is important.

[Xylthixlm]

@sam: softclaiming is just a lame response to getting votes. It is on my list of things I will vote you for. If you are going to claim, claim. If you aren't, DON'T. In fact.. it IS day one.. unless we are going to lynch you.. DON'T CLAIM!

I've lynched someone almost entirely for softclaiming and then refusing to fullclaim before.

It was DGB.

She was scum.

That was in the game TSQ thought I got "lucky" in.

[Xylthixlm]

And for the record, DGB

*is*

full of yummy candy.

[Xylthixlm]

If you ignore DGB, she doesn't go away, but at least you're ignoring her.

Or you can panic under the pressure like a good little scum.

[Xylthixlm]

A refusal to claim could also be a Doc claim.

Docs should not refuse to claim.

[Xylthixlm]

Ha. Ha. Ha.

qwints... I like his attitude, I don't like the soft claim, I wish he would post more. Not enough info to make a judgement on content, and he's not the biggest lurker in the game.

[Xylthixlm]

k.

unvote, vote qwints

Jebus, you're not off the hook. I'll be back.

[Xylthixlm]

DGB has a strange obsession with bussing. TSQ would say that's because she busses when she's scum.

[Xylthixlm]

Jebus didn't just enter the game.

[Xylthixlm]

Jebus didn't just enter the game.

Jebus! He's still alive? What are we thinking???

vote: Jebus

I don't know what you're thinking. I'm thinking "Damn, another game where I can't get a lynch on a blatant lurker. I hope we have a vig to shoot him. Actually I hope we have three vigs to shoot him."

[Xylthixlm]

I'm sorry, I forgot to mention, because all of my games I replace into, and I so seldom replace into D1.

I'm too afraid of looking scummy on day 1 to vote a player, but I don't want to make it seem like I want no lynch.

Fixed.

unvote, vote Korejora

. I think I just found another thing to policy-lynch for.

[Xylthixlm]

So, you're saying I'm scum in 100% of my games?

You're just as likely to be scum as the next person, but the benefit of leaving you alive as town is lower than average. Do the math.

[Xylthixlm]

Refusing to vote...

* Means that the number of votes to lynch you is effectively one lower than the number of votes required to lynch anyone else. If you're town, this makes it more likely a townie will be lynched day 1.

* Makes you look scummy, which again makes it more likely a townie will be lynched if you're town.

* Denies the town information which could be used later in the game to determine your alignment, once again making it more likely that you will be lynched (since if you're town, more information

decreases

your chance of being lynched).

* Gets even worse if more than one town player adopts the same strategy.

But you already know all that. Die. Immediately.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't expect to stop you. I expect to lynch you.

[Xylthixlm]

I've seen town players adopt the strategy of falseclaiming on day 1 to stir up discussion. That didn't work very well either.

[Xylthixlm]

I need a "Yosarian2 agrees with me" smiley.

[Xylthixlm]

This fails the "If everyone did it, could the town still win?" test. Badly.

[Xylthixlm]

Also, it's not just the not voting thing. Claiming it ahead of time is making an excuse for future anti-town behavior. That is

extremely

scummy, regardless of whether you actually play that way in every game.

[Xylthixlm]

Noting for future reference: It's really suspicious how Kore dropped that at the perfect time to derail the qwints wagon.

[Xylthixlm]

Maybe I should put in my wiki that I always policy-lynch deliberate anti-town play, even if it's a "meta".

[Xylthixlm]

Can't we lynch her another day? I like her so much more than qwints, Jebus, OR hascow.

Fine, but my vote's parked. Have fun.

[Xylthixlm]

* Disclaimer: I can usually be counted on to hammer anyone who gets up to L-1 and is not obviously protown, especially if the day has lasted longer than 3 milliseconds.

[Xylthixlm]

So, you're saying I'm scum in 100% of my games?

You're just as likely to be scum as the next person, but the benefit of leaving you alive as town is lower than average. Do the math.

scotmany is obviously bad at math.

[Xylthixlm]

Now

you're

trying to lynch someone for something he does in every game.

[Xylthixlm]

That was at scotmany.

Just pointing out that if scotmany really thinks that doing something antitown in every game is not scummy, and thinks that what I am doing is antitown, it should still be not scummy by his own logic.

[Xylthixlm]

I've never played with Korejora before.

Bad at math

and

logic.

[Xylthixlm]

because you think it is anti-town

I think it's anti-town, and Yosarian2 thinks it's anti-town. Now, I think you should think it's anti-town too; but your wording implies you don't. Which leads to one of five possibilities:
* You think that me and Yosarian2 are both scum.
* You think that you have a better understanding of mafia theory than both me and Yosarian2.
* You think that one of me or Yosarian2 is scum and you have a better understanding of mafia theory than the other one.
* You actually do believe it's anti-town, but are arguing otherwise because you're angry.
* You actually do believe it's anti-town, but are arguing otherwise because you're scum.

Please, enlighten us: Which one is it?

[Xylthixlm]

Or you could just shut up before you dig yourself a hole any deeper. That's an option too.

[Xylthixlm]

Oh, man, that's

right!

Xyl and Yos both have the best understanding of mafia theory in this game, and they don't happen to be at the top of my scumlist, so I'd better vote exactly when and where they do.

Baaaaaaaaa.

Strawman and appeal to emotion in the very same post. Defensive much?

I'll let someone else handle scotmany's latest post, if anyone wants to.

[Xylthixlm]

Insert "on this issue" as appropriate.

[Xylthixlm]

Although, I think everyone here except you has now agreed that your meta is anti-town. So maybe you can help me with a question I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to: "Why would someone deliberately adopt an anti-town playstyle in all their games?"

[Xylthixlm]

Right now, I don't think either of you or Yos are scum; however, you are a bigger detriment to the town than the lurkers you want to lynch and kore who will not vote on day one.

I know I said I would leave this for someone else, but I remembered a pertinent piece of information: So far, people who have claimed anti-town metas in games I'm in have been scum more often than random chance.

[Xylthixlm]

I would say either because they don't think it's anti-town or because it increases their enjoyment of the game. Winning and fun are the most common goals in games.

This is a competitive team game. Having fun at the expense of your teammates is not only a rude thing to do, it's also against the site rules.

[Xylthixlm]

It's not a psychological hypothetical; I'm asking how you came to your policy of not voting day 1.

[Xylthixlm]

The rules come up mainly because I'm unwilling to play in the same game as someone who isn't playing to win; I'd like to know if you're in that category so that I can request replacement and save us all more aggravation.

[Xylthixlm]

My vote stays on Korejora until she answers my question about her "playstyle".

[Xylthixlm]

Now you are being unreasonable! Technically, any policy lynch isn't "playing to win", and is a violation of that same rule, isn't it?

I've pondered what would happen if two of me met in a game. We'd probably gang up on a lurker.

But that aside... Don't speak of replacing out! And keep your rulebook in your pants where it belongs! Lets get back to lynching lurkers!

How about I make an analogy here.

"Hey, wanna play a game of pick-up basketball?" "Sure!"

"Dude! You just picked up the ball and walked two steps! That's a foul!" "Says who, man?" "Says the rules!" "I'm not going to talk with someone who brings the rules into it because they disagree with my playing." "Whatever dude, I'm not playing basketball with you any more."

[Xylthixlm]

Q: So why are you so pissed off by Korejora?
A: People who flaunt their anti-town playstyles get under my skin. They hurt

my

game, and unlike people who are just bad, they won't even try to improve their play. For a really competitive player like me, who enjoys

trying to win

rather than just

playing

, being in a game with one just isn't fun.

Q: So you should lynch them. It sounds like a perfect policy lynch to me.
A: People on this site, as a rule, don't understand the benefit of policy lynches, or don't believe that lynching anti-town players is a good policy.

Q: That sucks. Maybe you should go play on a site where deliberate anti-town play is against the rules, so you don't have to deal with this aggravation.
A: Sure! I hear there's a great site called "Mafiascum" where "play to win" is part of the site-wide rules! Why don't I play there?

[Xylthixlm]

Except that in your analogy, you already punched somone in the face for failing to set a screen! And I crouched down behind him so he would trip. Plus, TSQ cried and ran off.

So really.... travelling? Really?

Those were all accidents.

[Xylthixlm]

How about: If Kore doesn't vote TODAY, you will help policy lynch her TOMORROW.

[Xylthixlm]

You say it helps the town by generating discussion. Zwetschenwasser was helping generate discussion, too. Do you think

he

helped more than he hurt?

[Xylthixlm]

To be honest, your argument looked to me like "it doesn't really hurt the town that much" and not "it helps the town". Your sarcastic answer to my question didn't really help, either.

[Xylthixlm]

Korejora's policy is pretty much exactly the same as voting no lynch, except without the guts to actually vote no lynch.

[Xylthixlm]

Damnit Xyl you're being annoying. Don't you realize that you're being just as anti-town as korejora by policy-voting him?

Why shouldn't I vote someone who I think is scummy?

[Xylthixlm]

Oh, right, because I'm supposed to be voting a lurker. Almost forgot my priorities there.

[Xylthixlm]

There are many lynchworthy players in the game.

Starting with all the lurkers.

The vacant TSQ player slot tops my list, but I won't get any traction on a wagon on a player that ragequit.

At the moment I fancy a hascow wagon moar than a qwints wagon, though my desire for a qwints wagon has increased after he made yet another useless post.

Given the presence of both lurkers and someone who needs a pressure wagon/policy lynch, I am completely unwilling to vote someone who is actually posting today.

I might be persuaded to vote qwints, but only if Korejora shows some evidence she's playing to help the town. So far all I see from her is a bad summary of the game, a super-weak attack on hasdgfas, a meta claim to "cause highly important to stimulation" when there was

already

plenty of discussion going on, and then some defense of that with some fallacious arguments thrown in.

[Xylthixlm]

IMPORTANT NOTE FOR SAM.SAMHORN: THE ABOVE POST CONTAINS AN ACTUAL CASE ON KOREJORA THAT IS NOT BASED ON POLICY ARGUMENTS

[Xylthixlm]

I may have overreacted, but Korejora is still scum.

[Xylthixlm]

Your case on TSQ was unconvincing.

[Xylthixlm]

I fail to see how the case against qwints is better than the case against Kore.

[Xylthixlm]

Can't we all just compromise on Jebus?

[Xylthixlm]

Yes.

[Xylthixlm]

Well then.

unvote, vote Jebus

[Xylthixlm]

I don't like the qwints wagon any more.

[Xylthixlm]

Update on my inactivity - If I don't catch up this weekend, when I've got at least 20 hours of nothingness, I probably won't be able to catch up at all.

Sorry for not keeping up

Guys...If Jebus does not catch up over the weekend, hes going to get replaced. Lynching him is an awful move.

If he's replaced, then his replacement will be under pressure. It won't exactly hurt.

[Xylthixlm]

I like to hunt scum by looking for positive signs, and by process of elimination of those players that appear townie.

Same.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm willing to replace in on 40-page day 1's, but that's because I don't read them.

[Xylthixlm]

Are you denying that you are emotionally unstable?

No comment.

[Xylthixlm]

Who said anything about lynching? My vote goes off of him when he posts something useful.

So if he never posted anything useful, would you lynch him?

[Xylthixlm]

I want to give the replacement a chance.

Why

are you taking off pressure? It's not like we're going to get a replacement tomorrow, and even if we do, they will have effectively lurked for 40 pages when they come in.

Caboose is clearly a Jebus scumbuddy.

[Xylthixlm]

Hey, where is everyone going? Remember qwints, activelurk softclaimer extraordinaire?

I don't see you voting qwints.

[Xylthixlm]

What I really want to know is why Yosarian2 is being so quiet this game.

[Xylthixlm]

Huh. Seems like less. Never mind, then.

[Xylthixlm]

Here, rereading,

Unvote

.

Yep. Emotionally imbalanced.

[Xylthixlm]

Hey guys.

Just letting you know I'm reading the game at the moment, I hope to be caught up soon.

In the meantime I will:

Unvote

Who are you?

[Xylthixlm]

Rogueben replaces Thestatusquo. Thanks Rogueben!

I kan red reel wel

[Xylthixlm]

The problem with the qwints wagon is that qwints is town.

[Xylthixlm]

The problem with the qwints wagon is that qwints is town.

Wait, what?

I'm a daycop-vigilante-recruiting mason.

Actually, no, I'm not. But my gut says qwints is town.

[Xylthixlm]

It's more the fact that the wagon against him got big fast on weak evidence.

[Xylthixlm]

Because I believed the case at the time.

[Xylthixlm]

The Jebus wagon didn't get big. If there had been, oh, four or five extra players who pushed instead of ignoring it or ignored it instead of resisting it, then it might have gotten big...

[Xylthixlm]

- I need to meta Xyl in-depth; not yet sure if the Xyl of the day is manipulative scumXyl or townXyl.

Almost everyone who plays with me a lot has fallen back to process of elimination for catching me: if everyone else looks town, I must be the scum.

Of course, that's on IRC. Take it for whatever it's worth.

[Xylthixlm]

^ Don't let the above discourage you from trying a meta. Maybe you'll find something I don't know about. You might find Minivitational 10 and Mafia 89 helpful as reference.

Tarhalindur, what's your opinion on sam.samhorn?

[Xylthixlm]

Oh, and Mafia 74 for a game where I was scum.

[Xylthixlm]

Fun things I found looking through my old games:

3 days to deadline. Nobody has enough votes for a deadline lynch. I will consider anyone not voting at deadline to be voting "no lynch".

Advance warning: I will consider anyone not voting one of the top three candidates at deadline to be voting "no lynch", and demand explanations accordingly.

Korejora, I'm not making an exception for you. You have been warned.

[Xylthixlm]

@scotmany12 - Which active player is most likely to be scum? Which lurker?

This looks like prodding a scumbuddy to contribute.

[Xylthixlm]

It's more the fact that the wagon against him got big fast on weak evidence.

Ah, the old "we can lynch him so we obviously shouldn't lynch him" argument.

The irony here is that I'm usually the one shouting "Lynch him! Faster faster!" on a weak bandwagon.

[Xylthixlm]

My gut says qwints is town. I'm not sure why, but I trust my gut.

hasdgfas: I'm not claiming my meta as a defense, I'm just trying to give Tar realistic expectations about what he'll find when he does his analysis.

[Xylthixlm]

Post 984 - Xyl: This seems like a possible lead-in to an attack on Yos. Xyl, why'd you feel it necessary to make this comment?

I don't keep notes on my games, so any really weird comments are probably me putting something in the thread so I'll remember it later.

[Xylthixlm]

hasdgfas: I'm not claiming my meta as a defense, I'm just trying to give Tar realistic expectations about what he'll find when he does his analysis.

I'm not talking about telling Tar what to look for on you, I'm talking about the interactions with Kore, where people were claiming you were anti-town for going after her and your reaction was, as far as I can recall, "I always do this."

No. My reaction was "If you're giving her a pass because she always does this, you should give me a pass because I always do this".

You shouldn't give either of us a pass, but if free passes are being given out I'll take one.

[Xylthixlm]

Acknowliding prod. I don't have much of an opinion at this point, but it's obvious cow is doing whatever he can to stay alive.

this is useless post number 18, out of the fourty pages of play.

....

I changed my mind.

unvote, vote qwints

[Xylthixlm]

I'm shocked,

shocked

to find that Korejora is not voting qwints!

[Xylthixlm]

I think I would like to see a qwints claim before I put him at -1

Remind me again why this guy isn't a candidate today? And why exactly are we narrowing our options to qwints and hasdgfas now to the exclusion of everyone else? I'd understand if deadline was tomorrow, but 4 days is plenty of time to run someone up from 0 votes to 9...

The question is really whether we'll have enough time to run them back

down

if they claim cop at the last minute.

stark is a better lynch than hasdgfas, but qwints is safe enough for me.

[Xylthixlm]

BANDWAGON!

unvote, vote stark

[Xylthixlm]

Besides, at this point in the game, reading is not important. We have only one player dead, who gives us no leads. Once scum start dying, then we can go back and analyze posts etc., but more information is gathered in the early stages of the game by simply observing players reactions in the present.

How will we go back and analyze

your

posts if you aren't reading?

[Xylthixlm]

stark is town; i guarantee it.

Is that a "you can lynch me if I'm wrong" guarantee or a "I'll furiously backpedal if I'm wrong" guarantee?

[Xylthixlm]

Policy votes are scummy at this stage in the game

Which

stage of the game? Day 1?

[Xylthixlm]

Oh, and...

Everybody on this stark wagon is super scummy!

The people on the stark wagon are some of the most obvtown people in the game. Are you even reading, or are you just calling people scummy because you disagree with them?

[Xylthixlm]

Our dayvig could do worse than shooting sam.samhorn tomorrow.

[Xylthixlm]

Stop trying to direct the vig.

No.

What separates stark from camn?

camn reads the game. Among other things.

[Xylthixlm]

I have the setting checked where Post #1 is at the top of every page... and it clearly states who replaced who. Maybe you should try that?

Oh wow, there's a setting for that? Cool!

[Xylthixlm]

I'm also confirmed town anyways.

[Xylthixlm]

Who is less scummy, populartajo or Caboose?

[Xylthixlm]

Who was that question directed to, Xyl?

Anyone who wants to answer it.

[Xylthixlm]

Well then.

unvote, vote qwints

[Xylthixlm]

stark is town; i guarantee it.

Is that a "you can lynch me if I'm wrong" guarantee or a "I'll furiously backpedal if I'm wrong" guarantee?

sam.samhorn never answered this question.

[Xylthixlm]

just for clarification: I have no role information that implies that stark is good. Or bad. I just said that I guarantee that he's town because this wagon is stupid.

I see you're actually reading my posts.

unvote, vote stark

[Xylthixlm]

Tarhalindur: What does IIoA stand for?

[Xylthixlm]

Stark, I refuse to read your wall of text, just like I refuse to read all wall's of txts.

If you had a specific point to it, feel free to post it.

You're lucky that Korejora is scummier than you are.

...Just cuz i refuse to read his post?

That can't be it, or Tar would be voting sam.samhorn by now.

[Xylthixlm]

I would actually be really up for a camn lynch, and not just on OMGUS. If I have time tomorrow, I can work on a more topical PbPA, as the last thirty pages have been a bit of a blur for me.

If you can make a good case against camn you should do it ASAP. I don't see one myself.

[Xylthixlm]

stark isn't confirmed town.

[Xylthixlm]

minor FoS Xyl and crywolf. For subtle rolefishing.

What rolefishing?

[Xylthixlm]

I just said that I guarantee that he's town because this wagon is stupid.

I'd like to take this moment to point out that IT FINALLY WORKED.

stark has posted more in the last 3 days than he had the

entire game

before the wagon on him.
That is what lurker wagons are designed for. Thus NOT stupid.

Right.

So now that stark has stopped lurking, we lynch him for being scummy.

[Xylthixlm]

(Note for Xyl: IIoA = Information Instead of Analysis, supertell of active lurking.)

Interesting list of tells. I should point out that "Well, that sucks" is actually a null tell, despite popular opinion. (Well, not entirely null - it's a mild vig/doc tell.)

[Xylthixlm]

I'm also confirmed town anyways.

stark is town; i guarantee it.

That's the mason subclaim, people.

Let's put it this way: either you're a mason with sam.samhorn or you are scum. Since you apparently aren't a mason with sam.samhorn... logic ftw.

You're reaching.

Oh? What do you think that was?

[Xylthixlm]

Tar's reason was obvious: he thought that sam.samhorn and stark were claiming mason buddies.

[Xylthixlm]

scotmany: Someone says "I'm confirmed town" and you assume they're

joking

?

[Xylthixlm]

I might accept it as a joke (maybe) the first time he said it. But the bit where he quotes himself and sam.samhorn is pretty hard to pass off as a joke.

[Xylthixlm]

Jokes and scum bullshit look exactly the same, you know.
The "lolz! pwned!!" defense is the oldest trick in the book.

QFT.

How are they remotely similar? Is a joke a scumtell or something?

YES

[Xylthixlm]

I've seen scum do something scummy and then try to pass it off as a "joke" multiple times. I hardly ever see townies do that.

[Xylthixlm]

Town Thought Process

"Hey, it would be really funny if I said I'm a cop as a joke here. Wait, someone might think I'm serious. I should put in a [joke] tag or something so no one will get confused."

Scum Thought Process

"Hey, it would be really funny if I said I'm a cop as a joke here. Wait, someone might think I'm serious. But that's good for me; if people believe it I can keep the claim, and if they don't I can pass it off as just a joke."

[Xylthixlm]

The problem with the qwints wagon is that qwints is town.

Wait, what?

I'm a daycop-vigilante-recruiting mason.

Actually, no, I'm not. But my gut says qwints is town.

^ This is what a townie making a joke looks like.

[Xylthixlm]

scotmany: You really don't see any difference between my joke, which confused nobody, and stark's "joke", which confused at least three people?

[Xylthixlm]

I'm partially trying to make especially offensive or defiant statements so it will draw more attention to the absurdity of the stark case.

While I'm at it... this smells like bullshit, and even if true is bad play along the lines of zwet's falseclaim to "stimulate discussion".

[Xylthixlm]

scotmany: If I said "I'm a mason with camn", and everyone took me seriously, and then later I said I was just joking... would that be scummy?

[Xylthixlm]

scotmany: If I said "I'm a mason with camn", and everyone took me seriously, and then later I said I was just joking... would that be scummy?

Yes, but this analogy doesn't work. Stark never claimed to be a mason with sam. It was Tar who reached that conclusion without thinking.

Actually me, Tar, and camn all reached that conclusion.

[Xylthixlm]

I'm really having trouble accepting something which 3 out of the 7 people on the stark wagon took as a serious claim and unvoted because of, as an "obvious joke".

[Xylthixlm]

I didn't replace in until Feb 16.

[Xylthixlm]

So I'm scum because other people are dense?

Let's go with "You're scum because of your callous disregard for how your joke would be interpreted".

[Xylthixlm]

MOD:

CORRECTION: Xythlm is in violation of

RULE 3, SUBCLAUSE B

I'm lynching you, you're scum, lynching scum is fun.

[Xylthixlm]

So I'm scum because other people are dense?

Let's go with "You're scum because of your callous disregard for how your joke would be interpreted".

So you're saying I'm scum because I overestimated the capacity of my fellow players to recognize a joke?

Or so you claim. Pretty lucky mistake for you that your "joke" resulted in half your bandwagon vanishing.

[Xylthixlm]

Post 1128: stark is at 7 votes.
Post 1175: stark makes his "joke".
Post 1188: stark quotes his "joke" and sam.samhorn's "guarantee". This is the post that people thought was a mason claim.
Post 1189: Tarhalindur unvotes stark because of post 1188.
Post 1190: I unvote stark because of post 1188.
Post 1194: sam.samhorn clarifies.
Post 1198: I revote stark.
Post 1206: camn (behind the times) unvotes stark.

[Xylthixlm]

What? What? What?

My wagon APPEARED because of my joke.

They haven't gone away yet.

Where did that come from?

You were at L-2 before the "joke". That's some amazingly selective memory you have there.

Seriously. Why haven't we lynched stark yet?

[Xylthixlm]

why yes, as a matter of fact, I did read stark's post. He asked for a modkill because of rule 3, which is "have fun, don't make personal attacks." I don't see anything there that's a personal attack or not having fun.
What in that post is worthy of a vote, if I may ask?

I'm pretty sure stark meant that as a joke.
Trying to torque that into a scumtell is scummy.

I'm rolling on my bed laughing here.

Guys, can we stop discussing the joking thing? It's distracting from the fact that stark is a lying scumbag.

[Xylthixlm]

This:

Vote Count:

9 to lynch

stark: 6 (Caboose, Tarhalindur, DrippingGoofball, populartajo, camn, Xylthixlm)

Preceded this:

I'm also confirmed town anyways.

But stark said this:

My wagon APPEARED because of my joke.

Now, the most charitable interpretation I can give that is that stark wasn't looking at the vote counts, didn't realize there was a bandwagon on him, and wrote his "Frustrating that I have to do a long post now" post for some other reason. In that case, he would just be totally useless as a townie.

The alternative interpretation is that he's a lying scumbag.

[Xylthixlm]

Really? Making a joke and

not

realizing people will take it seriously

but posting it anyways

is something that

only

scum do now?

Yes.

[Xylthixlm]

Really? Making a joke and

not

realizing people will take it seriously

but posting it anyways

is something that

only

scum do now?

Yes.

Um.

Why'd you cross out the word "only" if it's a scumtell?

But if you think he honestly EXPECTED that people would take it seriously and posted it anyway, how is THAT a scumtell?

Let's break this down. He has a joke. People will probably take it seriously. What's the expected result? Suspicion. Why would any non-jester role purposefully attract suspicion. And why would scum specifically do it? Or do you think he had another motive for it aside from attracting suspicion?

Basically, I don't follow you here.

I think we've just established that a lot of people will give anything a free pass if they think it's a joke. If he could get the votes off him long enough for another bandwagon to build, and then later wave it off as a joke, that would be pretty good for him. Worst case? Some people unvote him and then revote, and everyone else says "it was just a joke, it's not scummy".

[Xylthixlm]

You seem to be missing the point. It's not "If X is a joke it's not scummy", that's obviously not true. The point more was that "You completly misinterpreted his post, because you complely misunderstood what he was trying to say, now you're trying to attack him because of your mistake."

Are you missing the fact that the post which people "misunderstood" was not his post where he said "I'm also confirmed town anyways", but his second post where he repeated it?

So, just explain this to me. Why is it you think Stark is scum?

viewtopic.php?p=1520653#1520653 not good enough?

[Xylthixlm]

Elaborate stark.

I'm also confirmed town anyways.

stark is town; i guarantee it.

So... stark made a comment which might have been a joke. Someone asked him to elaborate. And what did he do? He quoted his post together with sam.samhorn's post. That doesn't fit with the idea that his first post was a joke based on some witty banter that happened Feb. 12.