Medieval Mafia - Game Over

[Tarhalindur]

Here, rereading,

Unvote

.

[Tarhalindur]

Here, rereading,

Unvote

.

Yep. Emotionally imbalanced.

I forgot that there was an ongoing OGML game that I wasn't in. I rectified that.

Well, that and the whole "sanity, what's that?" thing, but that doesn't seem relevant...

First thoughts:
- stark is obvscum. Fishing for the dayvig source, fencesits DGB-TSQ, almost no scumhunting at all (the exception being Caboose, and his phrasing for that - "I would also support a Caboose lynch, if Jebus does not come to fruition. I'm getting bad vibes from him. A confirmed townie > vig." looks like scum trying to imitate scumhunting to me; note the "bad vibes" wording).
- Korajora's not scummy for her refusal to vote (in fact, her defense is a weak town tell)... she's scummy for her utter failure to scumhunt.
- crywolf is scummy (mainly for just following the popular wagons with little independent reasoning).

- I need to meta Xyl in-depth; not yet sure if the Xyl of the day is manipulative scumXyl or townXyl.
- I need to compare Caboose's play here to his play in Mafia 87 (where he was scum). Leaning Caboose-scum.
- I need to carefully compare hasdgfas's play here to his play in Mini 594. Leaning has-town, since his play here is reminding me of his play there.

- No good read on qwints (could be either nontalkative town or vote-hopping scum)

[Tarhalindur]

EBWOP: Whoops, forgot the following...

!vote Stark

Oh, wait, this isn't XylBot...

Vote: Stark

[Tarhalindur]

I think I would like to see a qwints claim before I put him at -1

Remind me again why this guy isn't a candidate today? And why exactly are we narrowing our options to qwints and hasdgfas now to the exclusion of everyone else? I'd understand if deadline was tomorrow, but 4 days is plenty of time to run someone up from 0 votes to 9...

(Right now, I find qwints scummier than has, with the caveat that I'm comparing has's long summary post to a similar post in Mafia 86 (where he was town) and seeing if there are any significant differences, since I've seen him make such posts as town and it's the biggest point countering his scummy play early.

Also, stark is even scummier.

[Tarhalindur]

I'm sorry...what separates stark from qwints?

stark crap attacked me and retreated for a long time. qwints didn't.

So because stark said he was getting scummy vibes from you, while qwints didn't, stark is scum, but qwints is allowed to be useless? OMGUS much?

I'm also confirmed town anyways.

Elaborate stark.

It's blatantly obvious, and I wish I'd had time to post yesterday.

GTFO stark. NOW.

Unvote

[Tarhalindur]

first off

unvote

I want a clean slate as I read what's happened since Thursday.


Post 764 - kore: what's wrong with a case "out of thin air"? I realized I had been getting bad vibes from kmd all game, and decided to go look at him a bit closer.
Post 771 - qwints: wait, so what? That's a horrible reason for a softclaim, especially when it does the exact opposite thing that you're trying to do.
Post 774 - Yos: I agree with Yosarian2.
Post 781 - DGB: So one post you like is better than everything else he's done?
Post 788 - Caboose: Why isn't it scummy?
Post 795 - Jebus: *twitch*
Post 800 - scot: stark's not posting at all. How would he be able to jump from one popular wagon to another?
Post 809 - Xyl: Why is this a higher priority than qwints, who actually is being scummy?
Post 826 - Xyl: I really don't like this post by Xyl, because he's blaming someone else for something that's completely his fault.
Post 846 - camn: Got any reasons for that or just throwing it out there?
Post 869 - tajo: Thanks for noticing I was V/LA, tajo, it's not like I was lurking. I didn't post

anywhere

from Thursday-Tuesday. Also, if he is scum, we shouldn't let qwints survive to following days.
Post 882 - tajo: It seems to me like this is saying that you know qwints is town. Why is that? Would you rather lynch someone who's not going to be useful in the future or someone who will actually do stuff that we can find out if they're scum later?
Post 901 - kmd: Hmm, I dislike the "no one can look at your voting records" argument. I find looking at "voting records" is talked about as being a better idea than it actually is. Looking at everything else is usually smarter, with looking at vote

context

being the best idea.
Post 912 - qwints: this doesn't say anything. Can you actually say something in this game?
Post 917 - sam: Saying that you're not going to read Xyl's posts is anti-town. What if you're in endgame with him and one other person?
Post 926 - sam: Not reading a certain person's posts is really anti-town.
Post 943 - Xyl: Why? what's

wrong

right with qwints?
Post 963 - farside: Is that really all you have to say?
Post 973 - qwints: How have you not been lynched yet?
Post 984 - Xyl: This seems like a possible lead-in to an attack on Yos. Xyl, why'd you feel it necessary to make this comment?
Post 988 - kmd: What is interesting about this? This seems to be yet another inane comment that you're making too many of in this whole game.'
Post 1004 - Xyl: Why? What has he done to make you think that?
Post 1006 - tajo: Dang it tajo, I was V/LA. Did you not catch that when multiple people said it?
Post 1010 - Xyl: What evidence against him was weak? Why is a fast wagon a sign of the wagoned player being town as opposed to pretty obvious scum?
Post 1019 - sam: A) I've been V/LA, B) I'm not scum, C) the rest of the town finds other people scummier
Post 1022 - Xyl: I'm not really a big fan of pulling out your own meta as a defense. meta should be a defense looked at by others to try to figure out if you're scum or town.
Post 1027 - Rogueben: I think qwints has the most value at this point. Jebus has been replaced, so I'm giving the replacement time to let me get a good read on him.

conclusions:
farside is way too quiet this game. I've never seen her this quiet. Feels off to me.
I don't like Xyl/Kore claming their own meta as their defense, although Kore feels better to me as she was attempting to explain why she uses her meta, but I don't remember seeing too much from Xyl besides "I always do this, so it's not scummy". If I'm missing something though, feel free to point it out. Not to mention that he tried to blame the derailing of the qwints wagon on Kore when nobody else even cared and he was the only one to unvote qwints because of it.

FoS: Xyl

I'm not a fan of tajo trying to build my wagon while I was V/LA, but I can somewhat understand it.
Looking back at kmd's case after some time away from the game, it's not as bad as I originally thought, but it was still a bit difficult to find the points.
qwints really needs to die. Not going to vote immediately as A) I want a votecount to see what it looks like and B) I want people to actually read this before night.

Pages 21-now/u]
Post 514 - Seraphim: Really? That's the only reason you brought up Jester? We've seen the same thing from tajo and he wasn't a jester. Bringing up Jesters is completely anti-town
Post 528 - Empking: THE HAMMER IS NOT THE SCUMMIEST VOTE. I HATE THIS ARGUMENT.
Post 537 - Seraphim: Saying they could be a Jester is the silliest reason ever to not vote for a scummy player.
Post 552 - ShadowGirl: Again, saying it was a good night. Don't like this.
Post 554 - BA: Same thing. We know it was good. Don't post that it was to look like town.
Post 557 - Jebus: Don't pay attention to the bah post. It's possible he was just trying to screw with us.
Post 560 - skitzer: Yes, we know. Do you have any non-inane comments to add to the game?
Post 565 - ShadowGirl: You didn't have any strong suspicions, but did you have suspicions?
Post 568 - Seraphim: That's a terrible excuse for terrible play.
Post 573 - massive: Oh I forgot you were in this game. Any non-inane comments to add?
Post 575 - skitzer: That's a very weak case for this point in the game, skitzer. What a noncommital post.
Post 581 - massive: What a terrible post. You claim we're not scumhunting, but if you think so, why aren't you doing anything yourself?
Post 611 - massive: what?
Post 619 - BA: What sense does it make?
Post 650 - Jebus: Wait, how do you know that there are more japanese mafia? Why are you FoSing the people who wagoned you early? Why are you FoSing me and ckd?
I also want to point this wonder of a quote out:

Note: Curiouskarmadog makes the hammer against a claimed doc. Not worthy of an FoS, but still noteworthy.

You FoS people for random wagons, but don't FoS CKD for the hammer against a claimed doc and instead call it noteworthy? Could you elaborate please?

Post 665 - gorckat: Don't like this post for some reason. Doesn't seem like gorckat
Post 671 - skitzer: What another wonderful inane comment by skitzer.

Final Thoughts

ShadowGirl: Likes to stay out of the spotlight. I don't understand why she was so unwilling to believe tajo and emp were scum. Also, there were a few instances of defending other players that I didn't like.
skitzer: Hasn't posted very much at all. Most of what he's said has been inane comments. What hasn't been inane hasn't felt right to me.
BA: Don't like his play much. Most of it has been said already.
Seraphim/gorckat: Brought up Jester. That almost makes me want to vote him just for that. His other posts have also not been good, IMO.
massive: hasn't said anything.
Sierra has been quiet recently which I find very interesting.
Where's Ku_F and Rush?



Anyway, I am now caught up and will start off with a

Vote: ShadowGirl
HoS: skitzer, gorckat
FoS: BA, massive, Sierra, Ku_F

Okay.

Point 1: Stark lynch is bad. This has been made abundantly clear. Any further questioning of him is bad. GTFO him, people.
Point 2: Hasdgfas is either town or scum with Xyl. That means he's probably town. That means he's a bad lynch today.
Point 3: Xyl looks pretty town after isolation read. No IIoA, at any rate.
Point 4: Qwints lynch is okay (about equal with CryWolf), but Korejora lynch is much better. Seriously, IIoA, people (no scumhunting from CounselWolf OR Korejora). Got time to force a claim?

Vote: Korejora

(will switch to Qwints on Monday if necessary)

[Tarhalindur]

Stark, I refuse to read your wall of text, just like I refuse to read all wall's of txts.

If you had a specific point to it, feel free to post it.

You're lucky that Korejora is scummier than you are.

[Tarhalindur]

just for clarification: I have no role information that implies that stark is good. Or bad. I just said that I guarantee that he's town because this wagon is stupid.

... So stark's mason subclaim just got counterclaimed by his all-but-claimed partner?

Back to Plan A.

Unvote, Vote: stark

[Tarhalindur]

sorry guys. really sick ,bad fever. couldnt catch up today.

You're still on my "why isn't this scumbag lynched yet?" list, you're just lower than Stark is right now.

(Note for Xyl: IIoA = Information Instead of Analysis, supertell of active lurking.)

[Tarhalindur]

I'm also confirmed town anyways.

stark is town; i guarantee it.

That's the mason subclaim, people.

Let's put it this way: either you're a mason with sam.samhorn or you are scum. Since you apparently aren't a mason with sam.samhorn... logic ftw.

[Tarhalindur]

Sitrep:

I am very V/LA until Tuesday.

I'm not likely to have time to post again before deadline - one post at most.

Stark wagon isn't going to lead to lynch. Has case is better than qwints case, IMO.

Unvote, Vote: hasdgfas

Has, that's L-2. Claim or die (>10 players alive). Would active players please make sure that this ultimatum has teeth?

[Tarhalindur]

Hey look, a minute of free time!

Crywolf is scummy.
Camn is scummy.
Qwints's inactivity after his wagon derailed is increasingl scummy.
Xyl is goddamn unreadable.

Unvote, Vote: Crywolf20084

(If she's confirmable, then I'd guess that scum are trying lynch-control instead of IIoA - that would be a MAJOR point against Xyl, btw.)

[Tarhalindur]

unvote, vote crywolf

Looks like we have a solid consensus candidate.

FOR GREAT JUSTICE!!

... Thanks for claiming scum, we'll deal with you tomorrow.

Now I have to remember who derailed the qwints wagon earlier.

[Tarhalindur]

- I need to meta Xyl in-depth; not yet sure if the Xyl of the day is manipulative scumXyl or townXyl.

Almost everyone who plays with me a lot has fallen back to process of elimination for catching me: if everyone else looks town, I must be the scum.

Of course, that's on IRC. Take it for whatever it's worth.

[quote="OhGodMyLife, first post]

7. zwetschenwasser -

William Wallace, Town Martyr

- Felled by an Arrow Day 1

10. crywolf20084 -

Geoffrey Chaucer, Town Vanilla

- Lynched Day 1

6. qwints -

Salahuddin Ayyubi, Town Vanilla

- Hung from a Tree Night 1

13. Caboose -

Jeanne d'Arc, Town Martyr

- Beheaded Night 1

[/quote]

All but two of the players I found scummy at end of yesterday have been proven town by death... camn is looking much better to me after a reread overnight... korejora can wait... das ist genug, wir sollen Xylthixlm sterben.

Vote: Xylthixlm

[Tarhalindur]

Cow, night result. Now.

I was told that Tarhalindur is better known as The Venerable Bede.

Correct.

Hey DGB and camn, can you help me beat some sense into Tarhalindur?

*facepalm*

Never mind, apparently I had the situation completely misread. Need to reread Rogueben, then.

Unvote

[Tarhalindur]

Actually I changed my mind. I'd rather be a daycop-vigilante-recruiting mason-double voter.

Vote x2: stark

Something tells me that this is a pretty good sign that we should be lynching stark today.

Or tonight. Either way works for me.

Vote: stark

[Tarhalindur]

Actually I changed my mind. I'd rather be a daycop-vigilante-recruiting mason-double voter.

Vote x2: stark

Something tells me that this is a pretty good sign that we should be lynching stark today.

Or tonight. Either way works for me.

Vote: stark

Why? Just because xyl said so? It's not like double voting confirms xyl as town. Why are you so quick to follow xyl?

Also, xyl, stop kidding around and making jokes and shit. Obviously, you are a double voter, at least for today. But don't keep saying shit like you are a dycop-vig, recruiting mason.

He's not kidding. Though I think he forgot to mention that he doesn't appear to have any control over his vig kill.

[Tarhalindur]

EBWOP: After all, I'm pretty sure I used that kill (with some help) to kill qwints last night.

[Tarhalindur]

Stark, claim or die.

Nothing personal, it's just that my personal policy is to force a claim at L-2, for reasons ably illustrated by qwints' hammer D1.

... Okay, it's personal, since barring a good claim I think you are scum and need to die, but the reasoning works either way.

[Tarhalindur]

I had some thoughts about Xly while in the shower this morning.

a) Xyl... did you say you were a one-shot?

b) Did you have anything to do with the Zwet Vig?

c) Shouldn't we just lynch Yosarian, then.. if he is unreadable? Better now than have him burn us in endgame, right?

d) Scumlist. Everyone. Now, please.

Scum: Stark, Korejora

Weak Scum Read: camn (early D1 play), scotmany12 (reaction to Xyl earlier today)

Null Read: Yos2, farside22, Kmd, sam.samhorn (need to reread all)

Weak Town Read: poptajo, Rogueben, hasdgfas

Town: Xylthixlm, DrippingGoofball

Me: Tarhalindur

[Tarhalindur]

Here's a good idea of why I find scotmany's play early today scummy.

I'm a daycop-vigilante-recruiting mason.

Actually, no, I'm not.

^ This is obvtown.

Nice WIFOM.

WIFOM, maybe you should explain to all of us why he is town.

I have reason to believe his role claim. Ask no more.

You mean the roleclaim that he said was a joke? Like in this post.

The problem with the qwints wagon is that qwints is town.

Wait, what?

I'm a daycop-vigilante-recruiting mason.

Actually, no, I'm not. But my gut says qwints is town.

^ This is what a townie making a joke looks like.

Seriously DGB? You do not see how this is WIFOM? And here I though you were somewhat decent at this game.

It's not WIFOM. I can read Xyl's mind, and you can't.

Since you seem to be so adamant about defending Xyl from his blatant WIFOM, maybe you should explain to all of us why he is town.

Part 1: Trying to use Xyl's breadcrumbs as evidence that he was trying to WIFOM, despite people backing up what Xyl was saying. Could be scot-town really not realizing that Xyl's "joke claim" was in fact true enough that people were recognizing the truth, but I think that Scot-scum trying to paint doubt on a very strong role is more likely.

Actually I changed my mind. I'd rather be a daycop-vigilante-recruiting mason-double voter.

Vote x2: stark

Something tells me that this is a pretty good sign that we should be lynching stark today.

Or tonight. Either way works for me.

Vote: stark

Why? Just because xyl said so? It's not like double voting confirms xyl as town. Why are you so quick to follow xyl?

Also, xyl, stop kidding around and making jokes and shit. Obviously, you are a double voter, at least for today. But don't keep saying shit like you are a dycop-vig, recruiting mason.

Again, trying to paint suspicion on Xyl when I was signaling that I had reason to believe his claim.

DGB is pretty much town sam.

xyl, what is the benefit of having the masons not say who they are, as they are unconfirmed.

Fish fish fish moar harder plox!

I don't like these posts one bit.

[Tarhalindur]

Day 1 Scummy Camn posts:

Wow, guys. You all come out pretty strong.

Obviously, I

VOTE KMD4390

WHy? flawed gambits + flawed scum-dar = town liability.

Plus, in an off-topic way, I would like to mention that I am revisiting Pink Floyd's early work. I think I like it better when Gilmour started playing Lead.. though I am sure there are some Syd Barrett purists here that will defy me.

Would be far more damning if posted out of the random-vote stage, but I still associate this kind of post with IIoA'ing scum.

I remember Cam Neely!
Just from the name, though... I never was into him... He was on some EASTERN conference team, wasn't he?
I live out west.

But I remember the name.

Again, severely off-topic post. Reminds me of some of Vi's posts in Mafia 87, actually.

I tend to agree with DGB, that dayvig scum seems unlikely.. .
Plus, if he actually lets us direct his kill. . it makes me like him.
Setting up his lynch in advance only guarantees at least one dead townie.

If he is scum, and we tell him to kill someone and then we kill him, obviously he will only kill a townie.
If he is town and we do the same, then he dies as town.

Thus... I would be against a lynch on principle only.

For some reason, you believe there is no way, if he was scum, that he would kill a fellow scum if we told him to do so. Why is that?

Not he knew we were simply going to policy-lynch him directly thereafter. Where would the percentage be?

And no, I don't think D1 is for lynching scum.
As far as I can tell, it is for lynching the most annoying player, regardless of alignment...

Don't like this attitude towards the D1 lynch.

Camn starts getting far more pro-town after these posts. After a better review, he's more of a neutral read than I gave him credit for initially (play makes better sense as town, neutral, or scum who knows there's a second faction than member of only Mafia).

[Tarhalindur]

Tarhalindur, since you seem to be the official representative of the mason-vigs, I have a question: Was the decision to shoot qwints unanimous?

Yes.

Rereading Kmd now.

[Tarhalindur]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, gentlemen.

Why are we spending our time using Kmd's scum list to try to hunt down his scumbuddies when we could be using the other posts in this game instead? (Well, besides the obvious, but I'll get to that near the end of this post.)

Observe:

Vote Camn

Seriously, she's scum.

Wow, guys. You all come out pretty strong.

Obviously, I

VOTE KMD4390

WHy? flawed gambits + flawed scum-dar = town liability.

Plus, in an off-topic way, I would like to mention that I am revisiting Pink Floyd's early work. I think I like it better when Gilmour started playing Lead.. though I am sure there are some Syd Barrett purists here that will defy me.

Hey, wow, look, mutual random voting between a known scum and an unconfirmed player. Unless there's a meta reason for this (haven't ruled that out yet), this is a pretty good scumtell. Also, again, note the off-topic comment on a completely non-game related subject (STILL reminds me of what tipped me off on Vi in Mafia 87)

Wow, guys. You all come out pretty strong.

Obviously, I

VOTE KMD4390

WHy? flawed gambits + flawed scum-dar = town liability.

Plus, in an off-topic way, I would like to mention that I am revisiting Pink Floyd's early work. I think I like it better when Gilmour started playing Lead.. though I am sure there are some Syd Barrett purists here that will defy me.

This post=scummy.

Note the Chainsaw Defense for a known scum (Chainsaw Defense is a valid tell as long as one of the players involved is confirmed scum). Sure, it's random stage, but that's no excuse.

Vote Zwet

Ideally, I would like to see him dead before he gets to post again, just in case he is a scum dayvig. I am 100% serious about this.

This is a good point. If he's scum dayvig, I don't want to give him a chance to shoot a townie.

DGB is my second suspect right now.

Point 1: Note the fearmongering here (we need to kill zwet NOW! He might be a scum dayvig!).
Point 2: Note the barning of Yos (who chainsaw defended Kmd in random stage) here. I'd put better than even odds on Yos being scum.

Sam, Day 1 is where you get your biggest read on players. Yeah, more can come later. But Day 1 is far more important than people usually think it is. For example, when people say Day 1 is a shot in the dark, I attack them for it. We get a lot from Day 1.

Not sure whether Kmd-scum would coach a townie like this or not.

Well... Camn says she's biased on me and I think I feel the same with her. I see her massively buddying up to Yos with the "legend" comment, but one of my points against her in Tranquility was buddying up to Rishi early in the game. Remember that she was town... I don't even know what tells to look for with her because I was so wrong on her in the other game. =/

Qwints is only reinforcing my thoughts on him by jumping on the latest popular wagon with Cow. And guess what? He did it in the same way he did with Zwet and Jebus when those wagons were popular.

Sam looks good with the lurker opinions, but when it comes to actual specific players, he's no better than Qwints. If Qwints weren't so scummy, I'd probably vote Sam. The lurker opinions look more like trying to look active without giving actual thoughts. And when he does drop an opinion, he can't be bothered to back it.

Camn, I have to ask. You call TSQ scummy. He asks why. You answer. Why do you need the disclaimer, "For clarity.. this post should not be construed as a 'case' against TSQ" at the end. Giving reasons why a player is scummy IS a case. Why are you seperating yourself from calling it that?

Mod

, the vote count shows my vote on Qwints and the other 2 votes as seperate wagons.

I don't see why Caboose needs to be uestioned about the "softclaim"?

Hey camn. Wanna use Zwet to see if my Gambit (actually an analysis strategy more than a Gambit when I use it like this) works better on a confirmed town wagon? hasdgfas, Thestatusquo, Yosarian2, scotmany12, sam.samhorn, Kmd4390. Those were the Zwet voters. (Actually, at quick glance, Qwints, Caboose, and Cow all were voting Zwet at one point too.) I bet we can find an experienced scum or 2 or maybe even 3 on this wagon. Qwints, Yos, TSQ would be my top choices. Cow and Scot are meh as well. So yeah, I'm doing this again based on the simple fact that Zwet was town. Stef being scum ruined the hell out of it last time. I'm gonna piss off Camn here and say this: My analysis strategy reinforces my scum read on Qwints. It also reinforces any suspicion I may get on any of these players later.

Given this post and an earlier analysis post which I found too long to quote here, I'm leaning towards camn being town who Kmd tried to buddy up to based on past meta.

Also note weak Chainsaw Defense for TSQ (now Rogueben).

Last note: Given Kmd's attack on qwints, I strongly believe that the zwetschenwasser wagon was town-driven, with little if any scum presence.

TSQ, if you read closer, I say Sam's "looking good" looks like an act because he is only looking good as far as the lurker discussion.

And there is no "but" about you, Yos, and Qwints. Way to try and make my suspicions look less like suspicions.

FoS TSQ

(I rarely use that, but I'm not unvoting Qwints)

Hai guys, it's the Friend of Scum (FoS) Tell! You know, the one where scum tend to FoS their own for distancing...

I agree with DGB's logic.

Also Qwints' last post makes me think even more that he had buddies on Zwet's wagon.

Yeah, I'd say zwet wagon was town-driven...

2. Qwintscum would have left the wagon but with what purpose? Nobody would have given him shit for pushing such a perfect wagon.

(shrug) Very often, around day 3 or 4, people go back, see who was on each bandwagon at lynch, and compare who was on which townie wagons to who was on which scum wagons. For that reason, scum often don't like actually having their vote on a townie wagon at the moment it goes to a lynch, or at least not to have that happen too often.

I know what you're saying, but I don't think the behavior would be unlikely for qwints-scum.

I agree with Yosarian2.

Caboose left the wagon before Qwints claiming role-based info (which is the reason Qwints used for leaving the wagon). I think Cow left it later, but don't quote me on that just yet. I'll check.

OK, never mind.

I just wondered why you asked someone else thoughts about my leaving the zwet wagon.

Oh, I know how it happened. I'm curious what Tajo's opinions on it are in comparison to Qwints leaving the wagon.

Kmd was barning Yos2 a fair amount. I'm just not sure if that makes Yos more or less likely to be scum.

Kore's no voting thing is anti-town. Not worth voting over though. Xyl's vote on Kore is anti-town. Also not worth voting. What Qwints has done this game is scummy because it is specific to this game.

The one thing about Xyl that does stand out is this:

Noting for future reference: It's really suspicious how Kore dropped that at the perfect time to derail the qwints wagon.

As Scot pointed out, Xyl was the ONLY one to vote Kore. Xyl has also blown it up to be hotter discussion than anything about Qwints. So not only does this start to derail the wagon, but it makes it look like Kore's fault.

About Jeebes: You don't think posting "I'm still here, am trying to catch up" stall messages, doing them just barely often enough to not get replaced, and nothing, else, is scummy?

I've seen him fluff post as town before

Note Chainsaw Defense of Korejora by known scum, and the attempt to set up a Xyl attack if the qwints wagon failed.

Plus, TSQ cried and ran off.

Haha TSQ is the kid who gets picked on.

The semi-on-topic nature of these two posts is pinging the scumdar. Either camn was a Kmd scumbuddy or Kmd was SERIOUSLY buddying to camn.

Kore, the only way not voting helps you is if you are scum. No one can look at your voting records that way. It hurts the town because we get no read on you. And I think Xyl mentioned this, but if everyone were to adopt that style, it would wreck any chance of lynching scum. The only discussion it generates is whether or not you should be lynched. If you are town, that's not helpful. And we have plenty of other discussion going, no? Qwints for example.

Coaching here (again) is catching my interest.

So anyone notice how the Qwints wagon conveniently derailed when Xyl went after Kore partially for derailing the Qwints wagon?

CHAINSAW DEFENSE AHOY!

stark is ahead in the count. Curiously, some players find him worth defending. Why, when stark himself feels differently?

Because Qwints is a much better lynch.

Stark only has a few minor points against him.

The defense here is noteworthy, but nowhere near as noteworthy as Chainsaw would be. Minor scum point for Stark.

...

Dear Santa,

This year, I've tried to be a good boy. I've done all my chores, and I've only lied once or twice. I've been working hard, and I got an A on my last spelling test! Isn't that great?

This year, if you don't think it'd be too much to ask, could you kill Xythl for me? He's mean and humorless, and I don't think that's very nice. He's also trying to get all the other kids to vote for me, which isn't very nice either. I will be willing to put off the pony for a year or two if you can just do this for me.

What kind of cookies do you like?

Happy Holidays!,

Stark

Seriously though. Xyl is scummy.

...

Hmm... not sure what to make of this, noting it for others.

Tajo, yes I find Crywolf scummy.


Tajo/Caboose:
On Xyl,
-he should have caught up when replacing in. I guess if that's just something he does, it's null, but I didn't like it.
-Instead of looking for scum, he came in immediately after lurkers and only lurkers.
-He spent a lot of time (his first 50+ posts) just pushing Jebus for lurking instead of adding something else to the game.
-His whole Kore thing was a huge reach and completely derailed the near-lynch Qwints wagon.
-After briefly voting Qwints just to switch to Kore, he's been repeatedly defending him pretty hardcore on what he admits is "gut", then went back to Qwints because he "changed his mind". (Note that he switched to Stark VERY quickly.) Switches back to Qwints just to go back to Stark again a few posts later.
-Overdid the whole Stark is scummy for joking thing.
-And his post history is just FILLED with one-liners.

As if we needed more confirmation that Xyl is town.

...

Oh, and you didn't think I forgot the scum list, did you?

Basically confirmed:
Cow
Xyl
Kmd

Town Read:
DGB
Rogue

Slightly Scummy to Nuetral (scummiest on bottom):
sam
Tar
farside
Stark
Scot
Kore

Scummiest:
Yosarian2
camn
populartajo

Vote Tajo

*Waits for "OMG KMD THAT'S TOTALLY OMGUS"*

Okay, here's that scum list. The important thing to keep in mind is that, if there are scum that Kmd was trying to distance from, they're probably one of the Scummiest players that wasn't voted for (it's what I'd do, especially if I was trying to protect a scum power role...).

I'm pretty sure that one of {Yos2, camn} is scum and that tajo is town.

Sharing views is different from buddying up.

What are the distinguishing signs?

Examples of buddying up:

"X is so awesome they have to be town."
"X is cool." *Follows*
"<3s. That's why I play mafia with you."

Examples of sharing views:

"Yeah, you're right. X looks pretty scummy/townie."
"I see that point."
"Logical assumption."

The first group is basically just baseless compliments and following for no real reason. The second is more game-related and reasoned.

Note to self for second read: since it's clear he was thinking about it, there's a pretty good chance that any Kmd buddying in this game would be phrased in such a way to appear to be sharing views.

*remembers a fair number of "I agree with Yosarian2" comments in Kmd isolation read*

See now why I like him more than I like you?

Because even if he is scum he'll make good points? Is that a reason to just assume him town like you and camn seem to be doing?

I'm looking for your case against Yos. Where is it?

I don't have a case yet. I don't expect it to be easy to make one on him though...

As I am obviously at the mercy of my rediculous bandwagon I will claim.

I have been breadcrumbing the whole time with my "confirmed innocent".

I am Brian Boru. I have a passive ability that prevents me from being made to look like an outlaw.

This makes me think that there's a role out there, sort of a miller-maker.

Sounds like a fakeclaim for "investigation immune".

Note how Kmd pretty much admits that he's fabricating a case on Yos2. Whether that's due to bussing or Yos2 being town, I know not.

Also, Stark is probably town.

Conclusions:

Likely Kmd scumbuddies: Korejora, Yos2, camn, Rogueben in that order
Not scum with Kmd: Stark

Unvote, Vote: Korejora

[Tarhalindur]

Again, this is really silly. Scum don't go "Yup, he's right, I agree with X" with EACH OTHER, that would be dumb.

Seven-layered WIFOM sandwich, yum.

Ah, the classic "wave the WIFOM wand to make the valid argument you don't like go away" trick. Which is ironic, considering that the main tack you are persuing is "let's see if we can guess in which direction the scum was trying to WIFOM us when he played WIFOM games involving making a list of who he thought was scummy, and then take that wild guess and pretend that it is direct, unambiguas proof", and then you accuse me of using WIFOM?

It's frustrating, because you probably are town based on the way you brought attention to KMD earlier today.

I've seen scum go "Yup, he's right, I agree with X" towards more experienced scumbuddies. I'm sure you have, too.

Uh, Xyl, you forgot the obvious (and at least part of the reason why scum are known to agree with more experienced buddies). The original defense IS WIFOM, because it's based around things scum "don't do". If you're scum and you know that "scum don't do X because blah blah blah", then you have every incentive to SUBVERT that and do X, because people will think that such behavior makes you town. (I should know - my play as scum is heavily based around doing things that scum "don't do".)

This is doubly relevant here, considering that I am under the impression that Kmd WAS playing to subvert meta expectation.

In another note, the tone of this defense is horrible. See that "wave the WIFOM wand to make the valid argument you don't like go away" and the eyeroll smilie? Am I the only person seeing an attempt to defend by belittling the attack? Because that's scum behavior right there.

Actually, DGB, would you mind putting off Rogueben for a bit? We both think Yos2 is pretty scummy, and I'm not nearly so sure about Rogueben. Besides, I want more pressure on Yos2, and I think the vig-masons would be rather likely to support a Rogueben vig tonight than a Yos vig.

Unvote: Vote: Yosarian2
FoS: Korejora

- haven't forgotten about you...

[Tarhalindur]

I'm kind of assuming the guy with the arrows is might be a SK. He's doing a good job of killing scummy people though.

Also, the mason-vig group is less powerful than a regular vig, because it's possible one of them is scum - which would give the scum a very good chance of redirecting the mason-vig kills away from scum. Think of it as a town-within-the-town voting on who to night-lynch.

Given the two players killed, either that arrow kill is a dayvig or a daykilling SK trying to imitate a dayvig. Either way, we can deal with him later if necessary. (Which reminds me: after a reread today, I'll be leaving a player who shall remain nameless alone for a while.)

[Tarhalindur]

So stark, who do you think is scum?

Right now, camn.

Any reasons for that?

[Tarhalindur]

So stark, who do you think is scum?

Right now, camn.

Camn has said nothing of substance this game and only posts for the sake of posting. She is so incredibly mafia.

PS DGB: I am trying to undermine your "credibility" because you're an awful mafia player and you need to realize this ASAP.

Care to elaborate on the first accusation? I don't trust camn one bit, but when I read her I didn't see IIoA outside of the first few posts (and "said nothing of substance and only posts for the sake of posting" is pretty much a summary of IIoA*).

Second attack is just bad regardless of camn's alignment. Ad hominem? Admitting to attempting to undermine a town player's credibility? That's behavior I usually see from scum. It also has pretty damn strong scum motivations.

Unvote
IGMEOY: Stark, sam.samhorn

[Tarhalindur]

Someone needs to put another vote on Rogueben.

1) Rogueben is at L-2.
2) There are more than ten players in the game.
3) Yesterday should be a good reminder of exactly why you force a claim at L-2, especially in large games.

No need for somebody else to put a vote on Rogueben, we should just force the claim now. Speaking of that...

Rogueben, claim or die.

(For those of you who are unaware, it is my policy to force the claim at L-2 regardless of previous support or lack thereof for the wagon.)

[Tarhalindur]

When night comes around, I'll investigate, but I think you've secured yourself a good position.

Are you officially changing your claim?

Investigate using my powers of reading through 30+ pages.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that you will survive until the beginning of Day 3 without posting some kind of analysis on Day 2.

I suggest you reconsider that assumption.

Sincerely,
Tarhalindur, vig-mason representative

[Tarhalindur]

Oh right,

unvote

if voting.

No point in having my vote up while we're forcing a claim from Rogueben.

[Tarhalindur]

OK. Lets get serious.

Here is my PBPA with an ear as to TODAY's gameplan.
We have too many people who aren't really into the game. If you are reading this.. just start typing. I don't care if you catch up. Just jump on a wagon and go with it. PLEASE!!

Other that that, I have very few suspects, and no solid ones.
Pop reads scummy to me, but I don't have a case.
I wanted to hate Cow, but I found that he is simply irrelevant.
Scot could be scum. KMD could be, too, and I am overlooking it.

And, All lurkers must die.

CAMN'S OPINIONS:

Caboose

:
Soft claimed PR. This = bad D1 lynch, great lynch later on... If.

camn

: Obvtown

CounselWolf

:
Is lurker. Must die. Oh wait.. Is

Korejora

... best replacement ever.

crywolf20084

:
Is hardly playing.. please rectify or die.

DrippingGoofball

:
Was correct about zwet not being a vig... scum, or insightful?
Def should live through today.

farside22

:
Stupid Vacation. Hurry home. Wait.. you should be back by now.

hasdgfas:

Gosh.. I read you WANTING you to be REALLY scummy.. but you aren't that bad. You are incredibly WRONG about a lot of things.. but not everything. Neutral on you. But I would lynch you because you are so wrong on everything. You could easily be scum who's buddies are furious with you for sucking.

Incognito:

Totally Lurking. Must die.

Jebus:

Um. Its not a "burst". Its called DAY ONE. Dork.

Kmd4390

:
I am biased on KMD. We were town together.. then he was town and I nightkilled him night one for revenge... now I hope to play a couple days with him. So I can't be trusted. He seems as townie as ever. I would like to see him live a couple days.

OhGodMyLife

:
Talk about repetitive posts. Jeez.

populartajo

:
I thought you were on V/LA till thursday.. but you have posted MOST of your wordcount since you left! You should go on vaca more often.
Pop reads like scum to me. He is posing enough, but without much meaning.
Stays away from the zwet wagon.. stays away from the lurker-battle despite being #2 on the Jebus wagon... then mildly goes after the Cow once it becomes cool. Which = scum.

qwints

:
Totally useless. Convince us you are worth having around, please.

sam.samhorn

:
You haven't posted much, and some of what you say is suspect... but you aren't afraid to have an opinion. That earns you townie points to me.

scotmany12

:
You have an irrational fixation on Jebus. If you don't totally start letting us in on your secret scumhunting, then you deserve to hang. Post 507 is pretty indicative. It is all about Jebus, isn't it?

stark

:
Come play mafia with us? Please? You did sign up!

Thestatusquo

:
Scummy at times.. but worth keeping around until tonight. Totally worth it. At least he is playing.

Xylthixlm

:
I guess I am a little biased, but I think obvtown. Or obvscum-who-loves-killing-lurkers. Either way . . a terrible lynch for today.

Yosarian2

:
You aren't going to find me advocating a D1 lynch of a legend. Plus I see no scum here. Not today at least.

zwetschenwasser

:
R.I.P.

So.. I haven't played with most of you.
I play a little backwards.. so bear with me.
here are some thoughts of mine.
During THIS read I mostly ignored the first few pages of nonsense...... then got totally lost in your strategy-discussion.
For the record, I am PRO hypoclaim. I just lost (as scum) to a town who hypoclaimed a Hider. It was a good play.
However.. I couldn't be bothered to figure out all your rules.... so someone please explain. Who should I target? Actually, check that -- RYAN please explain, concisely, what I need to do in regards to the hypoclaim.. and when. Thank you.

----------------
MY RUNDOWN:

* BSG - 7 posts in 16 days? Not impressive.
In fact, generally not impressive. Probably scum.
HOWEVER, this is very, very true:

Also, can anyone please explain to me why so many players are announcing who they see as town? I really don't see the point in that.

I am generally against ID'ing people as town.. though in this rundown I will... since I replaced in.

* popsofctown - Seems levelheaded... which is refreshing around here. I like his style. Though not knowing IIOA is scary.

* Netlava - nothing notable. Seems like typical D1 play.

* GIEFF - Wow. This guy is some sort of internet superstar. If he is scum, we are all screwed.. so I am hoping town. Plus I really agree with the style here. People need to answer straight questions, or the entire game is pointless.

* EsoMonty - answers questions, which is so far so good. I think pretty good. Don't think being new is any kind of excuse for anything though.

* Gamma - Wow. His FIRST 10 posts are almost entirely worthless. I think he got popped initially for poor play, and could EASILY be scum.. but I am unsure if he INITIALLY was scummy. However.. his incredibly evasive answers and lack of coherent defense WAS and IS actually scummy. SO .. probscum.

* Xtoxm - NO read.. but I think BadGuy was generally cooperative with questioning.. plus I liked his stance on Gamma. probtown

* camn - Um... obvtown! Smile

* roflcopter - So.. I think hypoclaiming is almost a gamebreaker... and it looks like this guy was the first to bring it up... so obvtown.

* Korts - I was not confused about what Popsofclaown was saying in post 189.... Korts jumping on him for that was a little weird, but I guess it reads as a bona fide misunderstanding. Plus... I like everything else. No foul.

* Empking - no real read. nothing jumps out from magisterrain either.

* ryan2754 - At first I couldn't see the case on him. In fact, I still can't. But then I saw his last post, and I got annoyed.

Wow this game has grown a little stagnant as of late. Not many new posts to go through. Then again, it looks like we are waiting on eso or Gieff to do the hypo claiming.

He has 11 posts during the course of this game. None of which are particularly interesting. His post BEFORE this one was 5 days before! So maybe it is HIM making the thread 'stagnant'. I hate posts like that. So my vision is cloudy, but that strikes me as the scummiest post of the game.
"well.. nothing going on here! Guess I don't have to do anything!"

Grr.

--------------------

So... Thats it. Please let me know if I need to address any outstanding questions....and be advised.. I was in a hurry when I wrote this.. so I might have missed some details.

[Tarhalindur]

EBWOP: Oops, wrong button (meant to press Preview).

I was looking over those to see how similar they were.

Conclusions coming in a bit.

[Tarhalindur]

OK. Lets get serious.

Here is my PBPA with an ear as to TODAY's gameplan.
We have too many people who aren't really into the game. If you are reading this.. just start typing. I don't care if you catch up. Just jump on a wagon and go with it. PLEASE!!

Other that that, I have very few suspects, and no solid ones.
Pop reads scummy to me, but I don't have a case.
I wanted to hate Cow, but I found that he is simply irrelevant.
Scot could be scum. KMD could be, too, and I am overlooking it.

And, All lurkers must die.

CAMN'S OPINIONS:

Caboose

:
Soft claimed PR. This = bad D1 lynch, great lynch later on... If.

camn

: Obvtown

CounselWolf

:
Is lurker. Must die. Oh wait.. Is

Korejora

... best replacement ever.

crywolf20084

:
Is hardly playing.. please rectify or die.

DrippingGoofball

:
Was correct about zwet not being a vig... scum, or insightful?
Def should live through today.

farside22

:
Stupid Vacation. Hurry home. Wait.. you should be back by now.

hasdgfas:

Gosh.. I read you WANTING you to be REALLY scummy.. but you aren't that bad. You are incredibly WRONG about a lot of things.. but not everything. Neutral on you. But I would lynch you because you are so wrong on everything. You could easily be scum who's buddies are furious with you for sucking.

Incognito:

Totally Lurking. Must die.

Jebus:

Um. Its not a "burst". Its called DAY ONE. Dork.

Kmd4390

:
I am biased on KMD. We were town together.. then he was town and I nightkilled him night one for revenge... now I hope to play a couple days with him. So I can't be trusted. He seems as townie as ever. I would like to see him live a couple days.

OhGodMyLife

:
Talk about repetitive posts. Jeez.

populartajo

:
I thought you were on V/LA till thursday.. but you have posted MOST of your wordcount since you left! You should go on vaca more often.
Pop reads like scum to me. He is posing enough, but without much meaning.
Stays away from the zwet wagon.. stays away from the lurker-battle despite being #2 on the Jebus wagon... then mildly goes after the Cow once it becomes cool. Which = scum.

qwints

:
Totally useless. Convince us you are worth having around, please.

sam.samhorn

:
You haven't posted much, and some of what you say is suspect... but you aren't afraid to have an opinion. That earns you townie points to me.

scotmany12

:
You have an irrational fixation on Jebus. If you don't totally start letting us in on your secret scumhunting, then you deserve to hang. Post 507 is pretty indicative. It is all about Jebus, isn't it?

stark

:
Come play mafia with us? Please? You did sign up!

Thestatusquo

:
Scummy at times.. but worth keeping around until tonight. Totally worth it. At least he is playing.

Xylthixlm

:
I guess I am a little biased, but I think obvtown. Or obvscum-who-loves-killing-lurkers. Either way . . a terrible lynch for today.

Yosarian2

:
You aren't going to find me advocating a D1 lynch of a legend. Plus I see no scum here. Not today at least.

zwetschenwasser

:
R.I.P.

So.. I haven't played with most of you.
I play a little backwards.. so bear with me.
here are some thoughts of mine.
During THIS read I mostly ignored the first few pages of nonsense...... then got totally lost in your strategy-discussion.
For the record, I am PRO hypoclaim. I just lost (as scum) to a town who hypoclaimed a Hider. It was a good play.
However.. I couldn't be bothered to figure out all your rules.... so someone please explain. Who should I target? Actually, check that -- RYAN please explain, concisely, what I need to do in regards to the hypoclaim.. and when. Thank you.

----------------
MY RUNDOWN:

* BSG - 7 posts in 16 days? Not impressive.
In fact, generally not impressive. Probably scum.
HOWEVER, this is very, very true:

Also, can anyone please explain to me why so many players are announcing who they see as town? I really don't see the point in that.

I am generally against ID'ing people as town.. though in this rundown I will... since I replaced in.

* popsofctown - Seems levelheaded... which is refreshing around here. I like his style. Though not knowing IIOA is scary.

* Netlava - nothing notable. Seems like typical D1 play.

* GIEFF - Wow. This guy is some sort of internet superstar. If he is scum, we are all screwed.. so I am hoping town. Plus I really agree with the style here. People need to answer straight questions, or the entire game is pointless.

* EsoMonty - answers questions, which is so far so good. I think pretty good. Don't think being new is any kind of excuse for anything though.

* Gamma - Wow. His FIRST 10 posts are almost entirely worthless. I think he got popped initially for poor play, and could EASILY be scum.. but I am unsure if he INITIALLY was scummy. However.. his incredibly evasive answers and lack of coherent defense WAS and IS actually scummy. SO .. probscum.

* Xtoxm - NO read.. but I think BadGuy was generally cooperative with questioning.. plus I liked his stance on Gamma. probtown

* camn - Um... obvtown! Smile

* roflcopter - So.. I think hypoclaiming is almost a gamebreaker... and it looks like this guy was the first to bring it up... so obvtown.

* Korts - I was not confused about what Popsofclaown was saying in post 189.... Korts jumping on him for that was a little weird, but I guess it reads as a bona fide misunderstanding. Plus... I like everything else. No foul.

* Empking - no real read. nothing jumps out from magisterrain either.

* ryan2754 - At first I couldn't see the case on him. In fact, I still can't. But then I saw his last post, and I got annoyed.

Wow this game has grown a little stagnant as of late. Not many new posts to go through. Then again, it looks like we are waiting on eso or Gieff to do the hypo claiming.

He has 11 posts during the course of this game. None of which are particularly interesting. His post BEFORE this one was 5 days before! So maybe it is HIM making the thread 'stagnant'. I hate posts like that. So my vision is cloudy, but that strikes me as the scummiest post of the game.
"well.. nothing going on here! Guess I don't have to do anything!"

Grr.

--------------------

So... Thats it. Please let me know if I need to address any outstanding questions....and be advised.. I was in a hurry when I wrote this.. so I might have missed some details.

Looking over these two...

- The tone is somewhat different between camn's post here and camn's scum PBPA in 103, but not different enough to conclude wholeheartedly that camn's alignment is different here. Indeed, what the opinions post from this game really reminds me of is this post, by Vi in Mafia 87:

The body count in this game is massive o.0 Sorry for being slow to return; two other games have me... involved, so to speak.

I think between the Puta Puta scumflip and the three Townflips, everyone got proven wrong about someone. The question of the day is thus who got foiled more than embarrassed...

I'll play PbPA.

Vi

~ Miaow~

iamausername

~ If it hasn't yet been made obvious, you are ringing up as Weird to me just as far as your gameplay has gone. You jumped on Der Hammer early and faded out, went for al4xz early on and then made a late jump onto Puta Puta (how about I shorten that to Gimbo from now on) after initially agreeing with him and trying to continue with the al4xz lynch. That last part is what solidifies my suspicion. I like your contribution today though.

Tom Mason

~ Did not vote for either Scheherazade or Der Hammer D1 because he was catching up, which is a positive point IMO. Pushes forward with al4xz for agreeable reasons. The jump to Gimbo was somewhat on the resigned side, but I don't think I could label it scummy. Erratically signs his name to some of his posts, but not all of them (obvscumtell).

DoomCow

~ I'm torn between calling you useless or anti-Town... or both. I notice you were on the two big wagons very late, and while I would be more understanding if you said you were not around for the Gimbo fiasco you've already said that you were there, but didn't want to hammer (or more plainly, you were lurking). I have a meta on you (ongoing game), but it's not helping much. I don't see the hindsight on Juls as incredibly enlightening, personally.

Jazzmyn

~ As far as factuality goes, I think Scheherazade was a bit on the losing end in arguing with you. As far as attitude goes, I think otherwise. You did not wish to vote Gimbo for his meta in another game, it seems... which is almost a null-tell, except--

I realize that it might just be his way of trying to establish a mechanism for avoiding being lynched

when he

[Puta Puta]

is scum in other games

, of course, but for what it's worth, there it is.

THIS needs explaining.
Another quote that jumps out at me--

If I were scum, I would have voted for DerHammer somewhere around the middle of the pack and been quite happy with a town lynch, any town lynch.

There's a glaringly obvious problem with this statement. If you need a hint, look at posts 179 and 183.

ribwich

~ Is immediately barred from suspicion because he has

me

in his sig~
But seriously. At least as of now, I don't think I have anything either way on you. Leaning townside because you seemed rather reasonable about al4xz.

Gerrendus

~ I think you already have some idea of what I've to say here. You hammered Der Hammer as a policy lynch while constantly saying you believed Scheherazade was scum. You voted Scheherazade 429 on grounds of not being succinct (?!), and in 434 seem to insinuate that the thrust of your argument is the succinctness point (!?!); while in that same post hitting Scheherazade about diverting from the lynch of someone he implies deserves a lynch. This in itself is odd, because you said that you couldn't find where Scheherazade expressed suspicion of al4xz "in the mountains of posts", but we had to ask you where you ever mentioned al4xz; and reading them you don't express any strong suspicion of him at all. And at the end, you seem to argue against (or at least excuse) the Gimbo lynch. Yep, #1 suspect.

Caboose

~ As I've mentioned before, the timing of your Scheherazade vote strikes me - it seems to come after a weak point. Other than that, the only thing that strikes me is that you don't seem to have said as much as the other players (barring teh cow of doom).

ZazieR

~ Another player where the lengths of time between posts bother me. On the surface, though, I don't see a lot to comment on. I'm willing to believe that you have a meta on Gimbo, but trying to call him

confirmed

makes me wonder.

Top

Gerrendus
iamausername
Jazzmyn

Mid

DoomCow
Caboose
ZazieR

Bottom

ribwich
Tom Mason

I see Gerrendus is quickly gaining a wagon, of which I approve right now. But I'd like to hear him respond to me before I decide whether to join it.

Everyone who has not laid out suspect(s) for today yet should, frankly. Still to go: DoomCow, Cabüse, ribwich, Jazzmyn, Gerrendus (sorta), and ZazieR.

------------

Happy Innovative Interactive Response Time!

I didn't address Puta Puta's L-1 Vote (Here I mean his placing al4xz at L-1) because it didn't seem necessary. Everyone was aware that al4xz was at L-1, and no one was willing to vote for him until we could hear from him.

Do you... even care why people vote for others?
I see your defense of this later, but I don't buy it. Only paying attention to large wagons seems like a scum mindset.

I made the statement merely that we had needed to be careful. Although I doubted it, I was willing to give his mason claim the benefit of the doubt and not hammer until his alleged mason partner had time to claim as such. Had I pushed further for a lynch (which at the point he was: L-1, all I could do was vote and then hammer) I would have been denying that benefit of the doubt.

I thought you said that Gimbo could have been a sympathetic? Doesn't that counter the Mason claim? See also DoomCow's question.

Jazz was on the defensive from sche all yesterday, and had pushed for his death the previous two days. Granted I also did but she was his main target. It's possible she felt threatened, though as has been previously stated analysis based on night actions quickly and easily falls into the realm of WIFOM.

It's absolutely WIFOM. Do you have any other suspects?

it seemed more likely that Puta was a symp than a full partner, still a necesary lynch but an observation to be made. I also wasn't about to make the same mistake and be hammered for being the person to hammer twice in a row, I had checked vote counts etc this time in reaction to my mistake the previous day.

In the immortal words of JDodge--WIMP
You just said that Gimbo was a necessary lynch. Your reason for not hammering sounds like self-preservation; I at least would have been much more understanding if you had clarified that you were NOT accidentally hammering and thought you had hit scum/a necessary lynch this time (both of these would be improvements over D1).

As for me not voting Puta Puta, by the time I read her posts, she was already at L-1.

I wasn't willing to hammer after the claim.

Why? Masons aren't that big a deal tbqh, and if it were true the other Mason would have had good reason to claim ASAP - if they were even confirmed at all. If they weren't confirmed, then the claim is essentially worthless.

Why aren't you in more of my games, Vi?

You should probably be glad for it; a bunch of my games have wound up being modless train wrecks. (Praise be to Incog-Co-Mod!)
But hay, after this game we can IC together or something.

And after Night Two, coincidentally two people he put in his targets were eliminated.

Again, NK WIFOM. I wouldn't accept this as an argument against Gerrendus.

That's still a scum mass summary post, mind, even if it's from a different player...

Key things that feel off:

- Focuses on "good lynch on day so and so". I don't usually see townies talking about "good lynch on day so and so" - the closest I've seen townies play is the threat prioritizing "we'll deal with him today and you tomorrow", which is generally seen when a player thinks two different players are definitely scum. No, I usually associate "good lynch on day so and so" with scum trying to set up future mislynches ("okay, now TODAY is a good day to deal with so and so").
- Note how camn's assessment with known scum Kmd doesn't directly say he's town (it implies it, but in such a way that camn can easily back down later), instead backing away from attacking Kmd using "bad lynch today" terminology. (Also of interest - camn does much the same thing with TSQ/Rogueben, except that she's avoiding doing anything with an implied scum read instead of an implied town read. It's a null tell at best, and looks rather like her "read" on scumbuddy BSG in the 103 post.)
- Inconsistent with later play (note her lack of hatred for lurkers Stark and TSQ).
- Flippant tone - see especially the comments on CounselWolf, OGML, Incognito (speaking of that, including the Mod and Backup Mod in a summary of *players* is ITSELF rather flippant, let alone what she says), and Jebus, though others caught my attention to a lesser degree. That's a tone I generally associate with scum trying to defuse possible antagonism (trying to veil their attacks to soften possible blowback from those attacks).
- IIoA? Not sure here, since there's one form of the tell outside of more conventional active lurking that I've had severe trouble defining (best I can offer is that it's a form of analysis that seems to be substantative but really isn't). I suspect that Camn's opinions here are an example of that tell, and that despite the words themselves appearing to contain content there actually isn't anything here. I can't prove it, however, since I can't figure out exactly WHY these words give me that impression.
- Intuition/gut read. Every so often, I get a "their posts look town but I get this nagging feeling that they are actually scum" vibe from a player's posts (or vice versa). I'm finding that the intuition is actually more reliable than the logical read - reliable enough that I've considered using some game (probably a Mini Normal) where I'm town to experiment by not building cases at all and just relying on my intuition. The gut intuition wound up giving me the correct read on Vi and Jazzmyn in Mafia 87 (though it took a while to catch up on Jazzmyn); it was pinging Kmd during my initial read here, but nowhere near as much as it was pinging camn.

I'm leaning strongly towards camn being scum here. Since I rather doubt that I'll convince the masons to deal with her tonight (I know there's one mason who seems absolutely supportive of camn, I'll have to see what the fencesitter thinks), if we want to get rid of her without worrying about mason politics we'll need to rely on either the lynch or the daykiller.

She'll wait, of course, since Rogueben needs to claim as a matter of policy. But she's near the top of my scum list right now.

[Tarhalindur]

I still think stark's claim is a joke. I mean it sounds really bad on paper.

And if the masons feel that way we can deal with Stark tonight. (Rogueben and Stark both look like good candidates for the masonvigs.)

Stark's play of late is significantly improved, however, so there are better targets about. Starting with killing Rogueben tonight if we don't like his claim. (Camn kill still has enough obstacles that I'd rather not rely on us... including the biggest one, which I suspect camn has picked up on.)

[Tarhalindur]

Revised and updated "Trust me, I'm a daycop-vigilante-recruiting mason-double voter" scumlist:
stark
Rogueben

Korejora

He sees it too.

But he doesn't see camn. (Then again, I should have suspected that.)

camn, Korejora, Rogueben, maybe Stark... so many scummy players, so little time...

[Tarhalindur]

Hey guys, sorry for my absense. I guess I'm going to have to claim.

I am Suleiman the Magnificent, an unnightkillable townie. The paraphrased flavour is that no one would want to kill me as that would bring the full force of the law down upon them.

I am dismayed by the way a lot of people are playing. The analysis of KMD and my lists is inconsistent as mentioned previously.

I have issues with the play of all the people who are essentially confirmed in this game.
DGB seems to currently think I'm scum, camn is scum and three people out of {stark, samhorn, Tar and Yos} are scum. If you add KMD to that there would be 6 scum in an 18 player game which seems almost impossible to me.
I dislike Xyl's trust me I'm confirmed town stance. Confirmed town are no more likely to get things correct then normal townies so playing follow the confirm town is a bad game in my opinion.
Hasdgfas is basically useless. He comes in every now and then and pops up with something, but it's rarely useful.

I still think Korejora is the most likely to be scum out of anyone currently being mentioned as likely. So my vote goes to her.

Vote: Korejora

I will attempt to respond to anything directed towards me or about me in my absence later today or tomorrow.

Before I render judgment: are you immune to daykills or just nightkills?

[Tarhalindur]

It just says nightkills.

Okay, so we don't HAVE to lynch you today (if you'd claimed immunity to daykills, there would have been absolutely nothing you could do to prevent me demanding your lynch) - we could theoretically wait until tomorrow and ask the daykiller to deal with you. It's merely a good idea to do so.

Let's see:

- I don't think that you're lying about the bulletproof ability. It takes ballsy scum to claim a self-protective ability when they don't have one, since it's easy to test provided the vig is willing to potentially waste a vig kill.
- As DGB has noted, UNK claims are usually scum. I've only seen TWO UNK townies in recent games... and both of those were variants on the role (specifically, the Replacable Townie from two of the Mind Screw games). Claiming UNK Townie is usually lynchworthy (nailed the coffin in on Toolenduso in Stargate SG-1).
- At the risk of playing Mod WIFOM, I've seen scum bulletproofs in OGML games before. Hell, I've played as OGML scum bulletproof (Mafia 87).* It's a really useful ability for a scum role that you don't want to get crosskilled.
- If you're scum, you're either a strong Mafia power role (likely Godfather with good role name + UNK) or - more likely IMO - an UNK daykilling SK. The latter fits only moderately well with the claimed role name, but fits very well with the ability (and might explain why you didn't claim a kill as SK - there's been speculation about a daykilling SK). Also, given what I remember of Mafia 67, TSQ's play here would fit TSQ-SK nicely.

We can deal with Korejora/camn et. al. later (and by later I mean tonight... hello fellow Masons). Despite not having the instant-lynch form of the claim... suffer not the claimed UNK Townie to live.

Vote: Rogueben

L-1.

* - Side note: Now that I think about it, OGML mod meta offers weak support for Stark's claim (see Mini 594, which had a Framer), though not enough to clear Stark on its own.

[Tarhalindur]

I WANT BOTH KOREJORA AND FARSIDE TO CLAIM IN THEIR NEXT POST.

Why? Are you lynching me? Does your need for my claim mean that much in this game?

DGB I know I'm town. Dont know why you think Camn isn't scum but if you think stark is still scum and after the horride claim from him yesterday I would lynch him as well.

unvote:
vote: Stark

@tajo: Answer the above questions then I will claim.

Farside22, as official representative of the mason-vigs: Claim in your next post or die.

Same for Korejora and sam.samhorn.

[Tarhalindur]

Why? Are you lynching me? Does your need for my claim mean that much in this game?

Yes it does, on account of TSQ's suspicious interactions with you. We want to be sure we're lynching the right player.

I dont' know about korejora, but I know I'm just a vanilla townie. Not worth crap in this game. My name is Dante Alighieri. I got a brief discription of the guy and my win condition is getting rid of threats to the town.

I hate being vanilla. I find it quite boring.

Okay, that's one. Now we just need Korejora and sam.samhorn to claim.

I need to mull over flavor here, but Chaucer being vanilla town is a point in your favor.

[Tarhalindur]

Also, can someone tell me why pop is definitely town? His posts have been kinda town, but I want to know why he's "confirmed" town.

Can't speak for DGB, but I know that a Mason got rolebased on camn. Trust me: camn cannot be Mafia, and is almost certainly town.

Speaking of that, I need to run a few tests, but I think we have a town autowin here.

[Tarhalindur]

Farside claimed vanilla, Tar.

I'm playing catchup here (silly dinner), note the response to her claim in my second post today.

[Tarhalindur]

I WANT BOTH KOREJORA AND FARSIDE TO CLAIM IN THEIR NEXT POST.

Why? Are you lynching me? Does your need for my claim mean that much in this game?

DGB I know I'm town. Dont know why you think Camn isn't scum but if you think stark is still scum and after the horride claim from him yesterday I would lynch him as well.

unvote:
vote: Stark

@tajo: Answer the above questions then I will claim.

Farside22, as official representative of the mason-vigs: Claim in your next post or die.

Same for Korejora and sam.samhorn.

Wait, you guys have also been doing the day kills as well?

No, but we do have a NK and we're pretty sure that the dayvig will help us out here.

[Tarhalindur]

Modified from the autowin I set out for the Masons last night.

- we (Masons) vig Yos2 tonight
- Mafia kills someone confirmed (Xyl) tonight
Day 3: 10 alive, 5 confirmed (me, DGB, camn, poptajo, Slicey)
- Robin Hood dayvigs an unconfirmed (Stark, sam.samhorn, Korejora, farside22, scotmany12)
- Town lynches another unconfirmed
- Surviving Masons vig another unconfirmed
- Mafia kills another confirmed (assume DGB) N3
Day 4: 6 alive, 4 confirmed (me, Slicey/has, camn, poptajo)
- Town lynches an unconfirmed
- Mafia kills a confirmed
Day 5: 4 alive, 3 confirmed
- Town lynches the last unconfirmed, and wins
- Surviving Mason (if applicable) kills a false-confirmed player if necessary.

Mafia killing Xyl instead of a Mason last night all-but-ensures that the Masons are still active at endgame and can guard against a false-cleared player - the ONLY way this loses is if Robin Hood (yes, the daykiller is Robin Hood, pay attention people) is an SK, which I strongly doubt. (Barring a sixth confirmable town claim, we can guard against only one of daykilling SK and falseconfirmed player - not both.)

[Tarhalindur]

I don't mind dying for a cause but might I inquire to Tar whether you and camn are confirmed town to each other?

Don't inquire about that, instead, ask that samhorn and Kore claim ASAP.

We have a winner!

[Tarhalindur]

We're waiting on IIoA-Stark to provide analysis and for semiactive-Korejora and look-at-the-thread-already-sam.samhorn to claim. I don't think even Xyl would be able to speed this up much.

I'm also all-but-certain that we should not suffer Stark to survive the day unless both Korejora and sam.samhorn are MUCH better targets.

[Tarhalindur]

Also, now that I think about it: Scotmany12 needs to claim as well.

[Tarhalindur]

Also, now that I think about it: Scotmany12 needs to claim as well.

I second this motion.

What? I already know who he is.

Okay, I'm curious - what is he?

Yes, this is rolefishing, but I have my reasons - specifically, if we can clear scotmany12, my plan listed earlier guarantees a town victory (unless town deems me unconfirmed) WITH an allowance for Robin Hood being SK.

[Tarhalindur]

Explain why camn is town.

Stark, I dont know who do you think is scum or town.

Camn is scum.

Sorry, wrong answer.

What player OTHER THAN CAMN do you find scummiest?

[Tarhalindur]

Tar, how many masons are there?

Tajo, generally, vigs have a limit on kills. I felt that 2 is a good limit.

Why do you want to know how many masons there are?

Also, what the hell gave you the idea that vigs usually have limits on kills? Most vigs I've seen are either 1-shot (unlikely if not impossible given that there are 2 daykills) or unlimited.

[Tarhalindur]

seriously, stark? Is you dying in the best interest of the town?

Hunt now, please.

After I am informed as to why you are not scum.

While ordinarily I would just post a cool picture and call for Robin Hood to take your head, I already inadvertently answered this earlier today. Here, have some inadvertently public knowledge:

Also, can someone tell me why pop is definitely town? His posts have been kinda town, but I want to know why he's "confirmed" town.

Can't speak for DGB, but I know that a Mason got rolebased on camn. Trust me: camn cannot be Mafia, and is almost certainly town.

Speaking of that, I need to run a few tests, but I think we have a town autowin here.

Lucky for you that I misread "pop" as "camn".

[Tarhalindur]

Also, now that I think about it: Scotmany12 needs to claim as well.

I second this motion.

What? I already know who he is.

Wait a minute... I just realized something obvious that is indirectly related to this.

Is this a role cop claim?

(Side note: I'm pretty sure we should massclaim today; I'll elaborate after a few pressing issues are dealt with.)

[Tarhalindur]

Main headline: stark is rolefishing scum that refuses to fake hunt for buddies and should die.

In other news, scotmany is town.

Strongly inclined to concur.

Bigger problem: Given that our revealed Mafiosos had the role names Prince John and Vlad the Impaler (aka obvscum names) and poptajo seems to be hinting that he is a role name cop... we're ruling out the possibility that Slicey (claimed Torquemada, aka "obvscum name") is mafia role name cop why, exactly?

I need to check the D1 hasdgfas wagon again.

[Tarhalindur]

Vote Count:

9 to lynch

hasdgfas: 7 (

scotmany12

, sam.samhorn,

qwints

,

farside22

,

populartajo

,

Caboose

,

Tarhalindur

)
qwints: 5 (

Kmd4390

,

Yosarian2

, hasdgfas,

camn

,

crywolf20084

)
stark: 2 (

DrippingGoofball

,

Xylthixlm

)

Not Voting: 3 (stark, Korejora, Rogueben)

DEADLINE: Tuesday March 3rd, 10:00 PM EST

Hmm. Possibilities:

- haswagon was town-driven and qwints wagon was moderately scum-driven (has probably scum)
- haswagon was moderately scum-driven and qwints-wagon was largely town-driven (requires probably sam.samhorn + 1 falsecleared {scotmany, farside} be scum)
- BOTH wagons were town-driven and scum were explicitly staying on the sidelines (really like this option, since both Stark and Rogueben weren't voting).

Conclusions: has wagon looks town-driven to me, but I'm not sure if scum were on a competing wagon or avoiding both. The former says has (Slicey) more likely scum, the latter says both were town wagons.

Likely scenarios:
- Stark + Korejora scum
- Stark + sam.samhorn scum
- has + ??? scum(?)

DGB, your thoughts?

[Tarhalindur]

EBWOP: Olive is players I'm inclined to believe are town given rolebased or claim.

[Tarhalindur]

Also, camn should be olive instead of green. Silly me.

[Tarhalindur]

There's got to be a scumbag on has' wagon, regardless of has' alignment.

That logic says sam.samhorn is almost certainly scum.

Let's make sure he doesn't survive the day. shall we? We've got the lynch, and unless I'm much mistaken our friend Robin Hood has one last arrow left in his quiver.

That pretty much says that Stark and sam.samhorn will be dead before the end of the day.

Now, the question is: how much were are scum avoiding wagons D1? I'm inclined to say heavily (again, reminding me of Mafia 87 - two D1 wagons, both town*), but I'd like a second opinion.

* - Hmm. Should go analyze those now. Might be informative.

[Tarhalindur]

Now, the question is: how much were are scum avoiding wagons D1?

They did not avoid wagoning in the least, they were like circus clowns cramming in a Volkswagen on the zwet wagon. Kmd remarked that the zwet wagon was scum-driven. I believe he was setting up WIFOM so that we'd think the contrary if he flipped scum. I bet the zwet wagon had at least 3 scum on it.

Zwet wagon had Kmd, TSQ, and sam.samhorn on it, so I think you're right about zwet being scum-driven.

Problem is the end of day wagons (crywolf, hasdgfas, qwints). If there were two scum not voting during has/qwints wagons, Stark can be scum. Otherwise, farside22 pretty much has to be scum given minimum-1-scum-per-wagon logic.

(Mafia 87 and 78 both say 2 scum on largest D1 town wagon, btw.)

[Tarhalindur]

Thought: could Scotmany and Korejora BOTH be scum trying to pull off a Setesh Gambit* (probably off a Thomas Aquinas safeclaim)? If not, we've got at least one stupid scum on our hands barring severe mod shenanigans** - either Korejora for false counterclaiming (only makes any sort of sense if it's a total desperation move or if there's one more scum than I thought) or scotmany for claiming a role name that was likely to get counterclaimed.

Maybe I should start looking at the possibility of three surviving Mafia, too.

* - Setesh Gambit is where a scumbuddy counterclaims his own partner's falseclaim in an effort to gain false town credibility (as pulled by Tarhalindur as Setesh in Stargate SG-1). It works better if a safeclaim is provided, as that removes the chance that the counterclaimed role name is actually in the game (that's what prevented the gambit from working in SG-1), but can be used without.
** - Read: duplicate roles in the setup in a history-themed game (no flavor reason for there being duplicate roles that I can think of). Unless there's speculation that Aquinas was more than one person using a pseudonym?

[Tarhalindur]

Wait a minute.

I just thought of another possibility.

How much is OGML channeling my ideas, anyways?

I want to see a sam.samhorn claim ASAP.

[Tarhalindur]

I think we should use the rolecop, not risk lynching him. Doesn't it seem odd to you that scot would happen to pick the one guy I have out of however many other people lived in the middle ages? What if OGML put two of the same name in to punish flavour counterclaiming?

I lack a "DAYKILL HIM AFTER SAM.SAMHORN CLAIMS" picture, so this will have to do.



But remember, we want to force the sam.samhorn claim first. So hold fire for just a bit, Robin Hood.

And I'll want to make a fairly large post after sam claims (probably after DGB drops her reasoning for suspecting Slicey - I'm curious whether she's seeing the same thing I'm seeing).

All I'll say now is that I think I found a major design principle and I intend to exploit it.

[Tarhalindur]

Wait a minute.

I just thought of another possibility.

How much is OGML channeling my ideas, anyways?

I want to see a sam.samhorn claim ASAP.

The idea I had here was quite simple, actually.

We've had a LOT of roles that can mess with kills (both dead Mafiosos, 2 dead Martyrs, one dead town bulletproof) and a lot of killing roles which were either guaranteed or fairly likely to be controlled by the town (Vehmgericht x[REDACTED], Robin Hood).

Now, Slicey's proven that he's a name cop (correct result on me). That does not necessarily mean that he's town, however. The key question is, would OGML have designed a setup where the only actual cop in the game is a Mafioso (allowing the Mafioso to claim Cop to "clear" himself).

I've done something very similar in one of my games (Ocarina of Time future setup - the only cop-like role was a Mafia Traitor). I may or may not have a current or pending setup that works similarly.

The one thing I'm sure of right now, given the counterclaim et. al, is that one of the two is correct: 1) Slicey is Mafia, or 2) The Mafia have a name framer.

[Tarhalindur]

Does that not seem like a pointless role?

Absolutely not, if it's the only investigative role in the game.

[Tarhalindur]

BTW my next post will also have why camn is mafia and needs to die ASAP

Read my posts again. The Masons have known since last night that camn cannot be Mafia. Verstehen Sie?

[Tarhalindur]

Scum also have fakeclaims.

... How do you know that, again?

[Tarhalindur]

Scum also have fakeclaims.

... How do you know that, again?

What did Rogueben claim?. It would scuk to claim Vlad, the Impaler, huh?

There's a lot of people in medieval history.

Case in point - if scotmany is scum and Korejora is not (unlikely but possible), then we can be pretty sure that scum don't have enough safeclaims to cover every last scum, if they have safeclaims at all, and he just chose his falseclaim poorly.

Also, just having scummy rolenames doesn't guarantee safeclaims by any means - see Stargate SG-1, where only ONE Gou'Ald (the godfather) had a safeclaim.

So, why did you conclude that scum had safeclaims and didn't have to go hunting on Wiki or in history books for suitable names?

[Tarhalindur]

Speaking of that, I've been mulling something over - why would Korejora counterclaim if she was Mafia and scotmany was town, when that would inevitably result in her death tomorrow? If there are two Mafia surviving (my running assumption given 18 players, two revealed strong scum roles, and some relatively weak town roles), they definitely can't afford to trade 1-for-1 with an unconfirmed if there are 5 confirmed town... they would need to unconfirm a town. I can see a few good possibilities:

1) There's one more Mafioso in the setup than I thought (I've been assuming 4 Mafia out of 18 players for a while, but there might be five), and Kore is trying to push through a mislynch for the win.
2) Korejora thinks that her scum partner is under so little suspicion that he'll get past the Masons and two days of LyLo easily (presumably Slicey or poptajo, who have been under little suspicion)
3) Korejora is gambiting in an attempt to survive EXACTLY long enough to try to force through the Mafia win (but how does this work with 2 scum when town has 5 kills and this dodges at most 3? This probably requires a gambit with 3 Mafia alive to make any sense.)
4) Given is wrong: scotmany is scum with Korejora and is trying to pull a Setesh Gambit to falseclear one Mafioso
5) Given is wrong: Korejora is town (either scotmany is scum or OGML threw a curveball)

Point against Korejora are fairly simple: she failed to vote scotmany (much less LOCK ON) when counterclaiming, and she was the counterclaimer.

Frankly, looking it over with logic, I'm wondering if the best play isn't to have Robin Hood nuke Scotmany, not Korejora (definitely not stark - I want to resolve the counterclaim NOW so we can plan around the results, though I concur with making sure Stark doesn't survive to D4). Despite her bad handling of the situation, her counterclaim makes very little sense if she's scum unless scotmany is also scum or the setup is borderline-imbalanced towards Mafia.

[Tarhalindur]

OK.

Here is how I figure the math:

Tar has two mason buddies, right?
2 nights have gone by, and no masons have turned up nightkilled, so I am assuming that all of them are town.
Thus, my allegiance is with Tar.

SO... Tar and friends get a kill tonight and tomorrow.. and MAYBE the third day, assuming there IS one and that a solo-mason can kill while being nightkilled? (I know big assumption.. can it happen?)

That means, counting our dayvig....the numbers are as so:

NOW = 10 alive. (lets assume, conservatively, 7:3)
3 die today/tonight by town... 1 by scum.
Worst case scenario? tomorrow it is 3:3 - Lylo, since Mason Vig can still kill.

Thus I propose EVERYONE state which 3 people they would like to see Day-Vigged, Lynched, or Night-Vigged TODAY/tonight

If/Then statements are OK.. but keep it simple.

I will start

Scot
Stark
Sam

Then Slicey can Name-check Korejora tonight.
If inconsistent, then Kore Dies.

I assume at least ONE scum in those 3... so tomorrow we will be at 4:2 or 5:1.. depending on how many scum. I like those odds... considering Tar can confirm at least 1, maybe 2 tomorrow.

Scotmany
Stark
Korejora

I'm of the opinion that all three of these need to die before the start of Day 4. I'd rather scotmany12 get killed before Korejora.

DGB, starting thinking things through again. If Korejora and Slicey are scum (and Kore is not Aquinas) and scotmany is town, let's see how this gambit plays out:

1) Stark (or other) daykilled D3
2) somebody (say Farside22) lynched D3
3) Masons kill somebody (say sam.samhorn) overnight (Mafia kills 1x of {poptajo, Tar, DGB, camn} overnight)
4) Slicey claims that scotmany is not Aquinas, scotmany lynched D4 (live players: 3x of {poptajo, Tar, DGB, camn}, Slicey, Korejora)
5) Masons kill Korejora or Slicey N4 (mafia kills 1x of {poptajo, Tar, DGB, camn}
6) Other of {Korejora, Slicey} lynched D5
7) Last Mason kills last other player N5 if necessary

DGB, even if there are three Mafia alive, the only way the Mafia can win here is if there are three Mafiosos alive AND the Mafia has somebody in the "confirmed" list (poptajo, Tar, DGB, camn).

Hell, we *may* be able to guarantee a draw at WORST so long as we assume no SK (reasonable). Give me a second.

[Tarhalindur]

WE NEED TO DO A MASSCLAIM. NAO.

After looking it over, I am inclined to agree here. We've already outed enough roles, and I want to know if we have anything else I need to know about when calculating the possibility of a town auto-win.

Funny thing is, you forgot to tell us your role, so we'll start with you. Claim, please.

[Tarhalindur]

I have a nice big post laying out a probable town autowin, but I want to finish the massclaim before I post it. No point giving scum information for making falseclaims.

Poptajo claims first, then I do, then we'll let DGB and camn work out the order they claim in. Savvy?

[Tarhalindur]

@ Slicey:

What exactly would be the point of you scanning anyone other than Kore or Scot?

@ Tar .. are we calling for full claims? or just name-claims? Cuz I don't remember Kore fullclaiming.

Full claim from poptajo at least - I want to know why he said he knew who scotmany was (or at least make it public - I could already know what he is and be asking for last night's results). I leave the WIFOM to non-mason, non-populartajo players. Poptajo, I request that you NOT reveal whether you are a Mason.

I'm thinking that there's too few players left unclaimed for Robin Hood to hide in to protect him/her for much longer - and since we suspect Robin Hood has exactly one kill remaining, there's little point in keeping him alive.

I already discussed this possibility with the other Masons last night. I'm not sure if I want to out the other Masons just yet... we might convince the Mafia to ram their kill into the semi-confirmed.

As to Korejora's fullclaim, I thought that this was the fullclaim:

I am Saint Thomas Aquinas, philosopher and priest of the Roman Catholic Church. Simply a town vanilla.

No,

I

am

Spartacus

Aquinas!

... Seriously, though. That's my role.

I thought that she claimed that scotmany claimed her exact role - down to her abilities (or lack thereof).

Korejora, if you have a role other than vanilla townie, now would be a good time to say so.

[Tarhalindur]

Time to drop this post:

I'm The Venerable Bede, vanilla town.

DGB appears to have claimed Vote Doubler. I'm not sure on her rolename.

Camn, of course, is Robin Hood. I've been fairly blatantly claiming that information since the beginning of the day (seriously, saying camn is either town or maybe SK should have tipped you off RIGHT THEN that I knew she was dayvig).

Note that there may be a town player who lied about their abilities. If there was a Role Cop amongst the Masons, I would have directed them to claim Vanilla today to attempt to preserve that role's utility. Alternately, camn could be another Mason.

I love playing WIFOM games when I know I know more than the Mafia does. Let's see if I can WIFOM the Mafia out of another Mason kill this way.

Now, the logic that should create a town autowin:

Assume 3 all-but-confirmed Masons and 7 nonmasons. Also assume that Mafia doesn't have a bonus kill or another means of stopping a Mason kill (riskiest assumption here, but if they had either I'm surprised they didn't use it last night... unless they knew we were killing Yos2, and that would mean that there was a Masonscum bussing the hell out of two scumbags yesterday, which seems unlikely).

Worst case scenario (assumes we can't clear any nonMason town - for this scenario to even come to pass, Robin Hood must be a Mason):

D3: 7 nonmason alive, 3 Mason alive
- Robin Hood kills a nonmason
- Town lynches a nonmason
N3: 5 nonmason alive, 3 Mason alive
- Masons kill a nonmason
- Mafia kills a Mason
D4: 4 nonmason alive, 2 Mason alive
- Town lynches a nonmason
N4: 3 nonmason alive, 2 Mason alive
- Masons kill a nonmason
- Mafia kills a Mason
D5: 2 nonmason alive, 1 Mason alive
- Town lynches a mason
N5: 1 nonmason alive, 1 Mason alive
- Mason and last Mafia crosskill, game ends in draw

There are a few ways this loses:
- Mafioso in the masons (highly unlikely, as Robin Hood is alive and Xyl is dead)
- Robin Hood is an SK (extremely unlikely given numbers)
- Robin Hood is a Mafioso (extremely unlikely given zwetschenwasser and Kmd shots)
- There are 3 Mafiosos alive and all of them survive to Day 4 (unlikely given game numbers)
- There are 3 Mafiosos alive and 2 of them survive to Day 5 (again unlikely given game numbers)
- There are 2 Mafiosos alive and all of them survive to Day 5

Now, keep in mind that there is at least one townie outside the Masons that I consider largely confirmed. Whether this is due to being Robin Hood or something else, I will leave you guys to WIFOM over.

The only way Mafia wins is if we have extremely bad luck when killing unconfirmed players AND the nonmason I consider largely clear is in fact a Mafioso - the only difference between 2 and 3 Mafia is how soon bad luck can lose us the game (we lose 2 additional kills to hit scum if there are 3 scum).

I doubt the three scum scenario, however, due to game balance sense. Let's assume the most powerful town possible given roles and claims:

18 players at game start (normal balancing says 4 scum + SK or 4 scum with strong power, with latter somewhat more balanced).

- 2x Martyr/Bodyguard
- 1x partially bulletproof Town
- 1x Masonvig maker
- 1x Vote Doubler
- 1x 3-shot dayvig
- 1x role name cop (w/scummy Mafia rolenames)
- 1x framer-immune? town
- 5x or 6x vanilla town

Revealed Mafia roles:
- 1x bulletproof
- 1x roleblocker

Even given this strongest possible Town, I'd lean towards there being 2 remaining Mafia with either one or two abilities remaining (likely just framer) given this level of power (especially with 2 known strong Mafia power roles - bulletproof and kill-immune). Overall, I'd say the most likely possibilities for the surviving Mafia are:
- 1x Mafia Role Name Cop (read: Slicey is scum), 1x Mafia Goon
- 1x Mafia Framer, 1x Mafia Goon
- 1x Mafia Godfather (with good role name or the same kind of Godfather ability I put on Chairman Mao in Mind Screw 1), 1x Mafia Goon
- 1x Mafia Godfather (same as above), 1x Mafia Framer

Keep in mind here that we may know that a fourth player is Town. We just don't want to claim that knowledge yet. Isn't WIFOM wonderful?

Now, unless somebody (say, a Mason) sees a problem with my logic, we have here an autowin. I'm not sure when the Masons should claim except that the other two should claim soon (either today or tomorrow - I'm not sure whether playing around a possible Mafioso with bonus kill is worthwhile).

[Tarhalindur]

WHY KILL SCOT BEFORE KOREJORA???????

Korejora's claim followed scot's. If one of these players is pulling a gambit, it HAS to be Korejora.

I WANT FULL EXPLANATIONS FROM EVERY DUMMY THAT'S PROPOSING WE KILL SCOT FIRST. THANKS AHEAD. You know who you are.

1) DGB, take a look at my earlier post. I explained why, from where I'm sitting, even the scum gambit you describe doesn't make much sense (unless there are 3 surviving Mafia AND one of those Mafiosos is a player I consider townier than most, and - given known roles and the fact that this is an 18 player game - balance strongly suggests there are only 2 Mafia remaining).

I'm not seeing WHY scum would counterclaim scotmany if scotmany is town - the numbers don't make sense (if it's an attempt to falseclear, it fails because we're not going to consider any of them clear; if it's a suicide run, it seems half-baked). The one Korejora gambit that I see that makes sense - Setesh Gambit - REQUIRES that scotmany be scum.

2) I don't consider it nearly so implausible as you do that scotmany is nongambiting scum who got really unlucky on a falseclaim. Look at Stargate SG-1: I gambled that Bill Lee wouldn't be in the game, and used that name for a Setesh Gambit. I gambled wrong (though it only took me out because I killed incorrectly). Sure, it's low probability, and it's a bad falseclaim if scotmany is non-gambiting scum, but it's possible.

3) I want BOTH of them dead by the end of Night 3. As far as I can tell, the scotmany kill provides somewhat more information (if he's town, Korejora and Slicey are pretty damn scum).

[Tarhalindur]

I finally thought of a gambit that would make reasonable sense for scum Korejora to run if scotmany is town Aquinas. She could be trying to falseclear Slicey if Slicey is scum.

Consider the following possible plan:
1) Korejora, Mafia Goon, counterclaims a town vanilla, and proposes that the claimed role cop investigate either her or the false-counterclaimed player.
2) Slicey, Mafia Role Name Cop, claims the correct investigation result on one of these players. Korejora-scum is lynched.

The idea here would be that Slicey, by claiming a CORRECT result Day 4, "clears" himself and can hopefully skate into endgame (after all, Mafia is trying to hunt Masons and he's not a Mason...).

[Tarhalindur]

Meh. I think the odds of scotmany having a bad claim are better than the odds that Korejora is gambiting scum and scotmany is town (this is why I disagree with DGB - she discounts the possibility that scum simply made a bad claim, something which I'm definitely not going to rule out).

Those odds, however, are only relevant if scotmany has a really useful Mafia power role.

There are two things that need to happen now for my peace of mind:

1) Stark needs to be killed. I'd prefer we lynch him today, actually, especially if we kill a scum in {scotmany, Korejora} with the daykill.
2) Scotmany and Korejora both need to be dead by the beginning of Day 4 if possible. I think we have somewhat better odds of killing scum first by killing scotmany first, but the difference is not great enough to warrant spending too much time deciding.

Plan for today:
- Vig Korejora
- Lynch Stark
- Vig Scotmany overnight

I'm (more than) willing to swap the order of Korejora and Scotmany,

[Tarhalindur]

*facepalm*

Wait a minute.

Korejora could be daykill-immune Mafia trying to waste that third daykill (and get an extra opening to sneak a Mafioso into).

Camn, nuke Stark for us, will you?

[Tarhalindur]

Are you

serious

? Can you think about just one thing I say for a little more than the half second it takes to appease a confirmation bias? ... I mean, it really doesn't matter... but

still

... You're so damn sure I'm scum, you're going to think OGML's

lying

when he tells you I'm town.

Are you talking to me? Well, let's set some thing straight:

1) I'm not sure that you're scum at all - if only one of you and scotmany is scum, I'd say there's a 55% chance that it's scotmany, mainly on the ground that I'm not nearly so reluctant as DGB to rule out the possibility that scotmany might claim Aquinas as scum even without a falseclaim. (Note that I'm reluctant to rule out the possibility that *both* of you are scum - I can't rule out the possibility that you are trying a Setesh gambit.)

2) I'm looking at an autowin here. The mere fact that you are unconfirmed (read: not Mason, not camn) means that you need to die at some point unless the game ends first; the fact that a counterclaim is involved means that I would prefer that you die sooner rather than later.

[Tarhalindur]

Camn.

Losing a daykill strips us of our autowin. (Then again, poptajo being scum might also do that...)

I don't like the Slicey shot. I don't want to take that shot until Korejora is dead. That means tonight or tomorrow.

I say vig Stark and we'll use the lynch on Korejora.

[Tarhalindur]

I would LOVE to vig Stark.

Stark.. any last words?

Stark's role makes no sense without a cop. I wouldn't object to that.

DGB, you've played in enough of my games, at least, to know that "makes no sense without a certain other role" doesn't mean that said role has to be in the game. The role can just be useless. (See also: Nurse with no Doctor [Adel IIRC], Psychiatrist with no SK [Guardian, Mafia 78]).

No, I want Stark dead because he's scummy as all hell.

[Tarhalindur]

Yes, let's.

Vote: Korejora

[Tarhalindur]

Um, I'm not scum.

Um, you're not confirmed.

We'll wait for the flip before deciding, though.

[Tarhalindur]

1) Yes, DGB was a Vehmgericht member. However, she's the Vehmgericht member who tried to convince us not to kill scotmany last night, so...

2) Don't worry, camn, we already decided that sam.samhorn needs to die today. Actually, the running plan was:

1) Lynch sam.samhorn today.
2) Kill Slicey overnight (I REALLY don't trust the role name cop with a scummy rolename)
3) Lynch farside tomorrow if necessary.
4) Vig the last nonmason N5 if necessary.

Savvy?

Vote: sam.samhorn

Note: Still trying to work through if scotmany was the Mafioso with the beheading kill. I suspect he is, which bodes poorly for Slicey (remember, the Inquisition burnt heretics at the stake).

[Tarhalindur]

Before the first light of dawn, the townspeople are wakened from their slumber by a horrible scream, coming from the direction of the town square. Rushing from their beds, a terrible sight greets them, as a light illuminates the tree on the hilltop. Hanging next to qwints is another victim, Yosarian2. His armor was strong, but did not stop a rope from choking the life out of him. But it was not his scream that woke the people. The source of the illumination is just beyond the hill, right in the town square, where Xylthixlm has been

tied up and set alight. And he still lives! His eyes beg for help, but there is little anyone can do to stop the inferno

. By the time the flames die down, the sun is rising high into the sky, and Xylthixlm is no more than a burnt out husk of his former regal glory.

Yosarian2 -

Flavius Belisarius, Partially Nightkill Immune Town

- Hung from a Tree Night 2
Xylthixlm -

Charlemagne, Town Vehmgericht Master

- Burnt to Death Night 2

It is now Day Three. With 10 alive it will take 6 votes to lynch.

Hmm. See that bolded text? That looks suspiciously like "burned at the stake" to me...

Slicey, I'm pretty sure you die tonight.

Sincerely,
- Tarhalindur, Vehmgericht spokesperson

[Tarhalindur]

Wary of the grim sights that always seem to accompany daybreak, the people of the town approach the meeting place. Unsurprisingly, another lifeless body hangs from the tree. It is scotmany12, his life cut short, but not before he accomplished his own dark task in the night.[/b] Still held fast in his death grip is DrippingGoofball's hair, attached to her head and neck. The rest of her body is in a heap below the hanged criminal's feet, with Charlemagne's letter of marque visibly protruding from the vest pocket.

scotmany12 -

Gilles de Rais, Weak Mafia Goon

- Hung from a Tree Night 3

DrippingGoofball -

Johannes Gutenberg, Town Vote Motivator,

Free Judge

- Beheaded Night 3

It is now Day Four. With 6 alive, it will take 4 votes to lynch.

Oh wow, I need to read more carefully.

"Burnt to Death" is DEFINITELY a kill method from a living Mafioso - Rogueben and Kmd both died before N2 (the night that Xyl was burned to death) so that can't be their kill methods, and it can't be scotmany's kill method because OGML effectively confirmed that beheaded was scotmany's kill method.

So, Slicey: I'm sorry, but you don't get to survive to Day 5. So, camn: sorry, farside gets to wait until tomorrow, because the Vehm will be taking out Slicey tonight.

The only reason I'm not asking for Slicey's head immediately is that he's proven he's a role name cop, so it's rather unlikely he has a kill-preventing ability.

[Tarhalindur]

Err, the "scotmany12, his life cut short, but not before he accomplished his own dark task in the night." in the above post was meant to be bolded.

[Tarhalindur]

I couldn't win as an SK at this point... so its not relevant.

But I was looking at this fun scenario:

Say...we lynch town-samhorn.
Tar Vigs town-Slicey, and scum kill town-Pop.
Tar and scum-farside Lynch town(or SK)-camn
Then Tar Vigs scum-farside while scum-farside kills town-tar.

End result: Reservoir Dogs. Everyone dead.

It is almost interesting enough to hope for!

Uh, it would be damn easy for you to win as an unlimited-shot Day SK - just survive to Day 5 and daykill the last Mafioso immediately for the win.

Unvote

I need to think things over - we can't force a Mafia loss AND an SK loss at the same time without one more reasonably confirmed town, and if we want to guarantee that camn isn't an SK we'll have to do so by the lynch.

Slicey still dies tonight at latest, however - he's doing a DAMN good job of convincing me he's the last Mafioso by trying to play the "hey, you should go hunting for a possible SK" card (aka Selective Scumhunting).

[Tarhalindur]

Camn: Good point.

Now, more important matters:

Farside, sam.samhorn, poptajo: Do any of you have flavor in your role PM other than a basic summary of why your historical figure is famous?

This may be important.

Mod: Can we have a PROD on sam.samhorn?

[Tarhalindur]

Side note to camn: We should not lynch until all three of the other claimed vanillas have answered my question. I don't want to see a hammer anytime soon.

[Tarhalindur]

Ah-ha!

I thought of some evidence to my innocence.

DAY 1, before my first vig.. I breadcrumbed that I had THREE ARROWS.
It was my Samuel 20:20 biblical breadcrumb.

How would I have known to specify 3 arrows way back then? Not 4, not 2... remember the mason group was unknown... so I would have anticipated a much longer game, I think, if I was planning a fake-claim

Your thoughts?

For reference:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 04#1496104

Might as well note that this was the "good point" I was referring to earlier.

It's *possible* that you could have been planning a falseclaim from the beginning (it's what I often do), but we can deal with it later.

Now, let's get back to that elaboration by the other claimed vanillas. (Note: I only have the basic summary for flavor, as in the example vanilla PM in the first post.)

[Tarhalindur]

Camn: Good point.

Now, more important matters:

Farside, sam.samhorn, poptajo: Do any of you have flavor in your role PM other than a basic summary of why your historical figure is famous?

This may be important.

Mod: Can we have a PROD on sam.samhorn?

no
tar, be nice and rerad sam and farside isolated
im not buying the i hate vanilla excuse
farside hasnt scumhunted at all and has spent all game semilurking to just start the day with a heavy informed post
sam could have been here to send the kill in the night?

Poptajo, in case you hadn't noticed, I'm pretty sure I figured something out. Wait for the other two to claim, then we can deal with

lynching

mason-vigging farside

today

tonight if necessary (I STRONGLY believe Slicey is the last Mafioso).

[Tarhalindur]

Side note to camn: We should not lynch until all three of the other claimed vanillas have answered my question. I don't want to see a hammer anytime soon.

You got it. My vote(s) is belong to you..

I agree with your previous plan.. though I think the odds of Slicy-scum are small. I think if samhorn and farside die, the game = over.

PS.. for roundup purposes:

3.

Slicey

claimed Tomas de Torquemada - Name Cop
8.

camn

claimed Hereward the Wake - Dayvig
12.

sam.samhorn

claimed - Leif Erickson - Vanilla
14.

Tarhalindur

claimed The Venerable Bede - vanilla - mason vig.
15.

populartajo

claimed - Genghis Khan - Vanilla
18.

farside22

claimed - Dante Alighieri - Vanilla

Now, my thoughts:
Fake claiming Genghis Kahn would be insane.
I also think that Slicey is real. Balance wise, it seems to make sense to me. If he is the last scum, that is essentially me and 4 vanillas? crazytalk.
One or two of the vanillas must be the scum. My money is on it being samhorn, and samhorn alone.

Re: pop's balance comments earlier: We got lucky that Xyl picked all townies for the Mason-group. It could easily have gone the other way, and the mafia could have control of the mason-group by now! That would give the scum double-kills every night, and totally swung things. So balance wise.. it is complicated!

Camn, you're ignoring the fact that Slicey claimed Spanish Inquisition, and you're also missing something else. I'll explain after sam.samhorn and farside answer my question.

[Tarhalindur]

We have no proof if all of the masons are town OR if Tar himself is even town.

Why does this sound familiar?

Oh, right:

I don't have anything else to say. I can continue posting that I believe Kore to be scum and that killing me tonight after she dies would be ridiculous, but it would all be pointless. However, I do have one thing I want to say. It seems people are pretty much assuming that the masons are all town simply because a mason has not died yet. That is WIFOM, and the masons should not be looked at as confirmed town.

Um, I'm not scum.

Um, you're not confirmed.

We'll wait for the flip before deciding, though.

Neither are you. Pretty sure that no one is confirmed so how bout you stop acting like you are.

You're not the first scumbag to try to discredit the masons over the last couple of days. Now, let's show you exactly why the masons ARE all-but-confirmed:

Tar, xyl, and dgb have sufficiently confused the shit out of me.

There's a few other posts in the same vein, but this shows the point most clearly. Scotmany's confusion and refusal to believe Xyl's semi-claim at at the beginning of D2 just don't look like an act to me, and neither of the other Mafiosos commented on the softclaim until after Xyl clarified.

The Mafia, given the apparent confusion of its members, probably did not know about the existence of the Vehm until we claimed its existence at the beginning of Day 2, and that implies that there are no Mafiosos in the Vehm.

[Tarhalindur]

tar, ok, lets see what farside and slicey have to say
i strongly believe slicey is town and that the scum left has to be between farside and sam.
she thinks it that way too.
you havent answered why a mafia name cop makes sense, have you?

Why a Mafia Role Name Cop might make sense:

1) Speaking as an experienced meta-breaking moderator (coughMindScrewcough), one of my current design principles is that "an ability that doesn't seem to make sense on Mafia is by definition a PERFECT ability for Mafia, because the Mafioso can true claim his ability and rely on the Town assuming that his claim cannot be Mafia to falseclear him". You wouldn't think that making both members of a Mason group come from the same Mason group would benefit the Mafia in any way, either... but that's exactly what I did in Mind Screw Mafia II, exactly because the Mafia could use that line of reasoning to falseclear a Mafioso.

2) Slicey as Mafia Role Name C0p would mean that the only investigative role in the game is a Mafia role - perfect for a meta-breaking moderator who doesn't like a "follow the Cop" meta, since if town assumes that at least one investigative role has to be town they lose to the Mafia.

3) The Mafia is definitely somewhat short on safeclaims - given the fact that scotmany got himself counterclaimed, I'd say that they had two safeclaims at most. Given that and scummy role names, Mafia could use *something* to help them avoid getting counterclaimed/badclaimed to death, and Role Name Cop is a perfectly reasonable means of doing so. (I strongly suspect that the last Mafioso is either our claimed role name cop or a Mind Screw 1-style role name Godfather.)

There's a different reason why I am so sure that Slicey is scum, but I'm not going to reveal it just yet. I will explain one certain outstanding issues are resolved.

I consider the first of these three reasons alone a fatal flaw in the "you havent answered why a mafia name cop makes sense" argument, let alone all three.

[Tarhalindur]

Camn, you're ignoring the fact that Slicey claimed Spanish Inquisition, and you're also missing something else. I'll explain after sam.samhorn and farside answer my question.

The name is a good point, but Pop claimed Genghis Khan, for gods sake. I can't put TOO much credence in name-claims alone.

Luckily, If we put this SK biz to rest, we have enough time to kill all three.

you think i can be scum, vamn?

Well, I certainly think you CAN be scum... but I don't think that you ARE.
The three I mean are Slicey, Farside and Samhorn.
My point re: names was you seem town, yet claimed Genghis... So Slicey could be town with his name claim.

Saladin was in the game and town aligned, and Genghis Khan didn't run an organization which burned people at the stake. I consider Genghis Khan a FAR more pro-town role name than Torquemada at this point.

[Tarhalindur]

Look at you with your history knowledge.

Given you compelling rationale, I am perfectly willing to support a samhorn lynch followed by a Slicey Vig.

I just re-read farside and samhorn, and I feel Vanilla from her, scum from him. He was never on the right side of a scum lynch.. . and she was.

Also, I agree that a nk-proof mafia may exist, and Slicey ain't it.

can we kill now? I think Sam is the last one, and he has bailed out cuz he knows he is beat.

Absolutely not. I need both of them to answer my question.

[Tarhalindur]

vote camn

She has done nothing that would imply that she's town, and she's definitely a scum role.

Why would I be lynched again?

1) Explain further, please. Specifically: what kind of scum do you think camn is?

2) You haven't answered my question to you asking for elaboration on your flavor. You will answer it or you will die.

[Tarhalindur]

Ps, tar.. voting me is either a totally town move, or a totally out-of-touch with the game move, no?
Wouldn't sam-scum be voting town-Farside?
In fact, wouldn't sam-scum be voting scum-farside?

You might be right about Slicey after all.

I'll answer that once samhorn answers my question about what kind of scum he thinks you are. Or once he's replaced and his replacement answers the question you quoted above. Either one works.

Now, I really need to get some answers to my first question from samhorn and farside - yes, I have my reasons for asking.

Mod: Can we have a prod on farside22?

[Tarhalindur]

What now, Tar? Can we kill yet?

Given that you and Pop are town, it is in the bag.
If one of you are scum, everyone dies....
If either of you are unnightkillable.... then god knows.

DEFINITELY not yet. A little more patience is well worth your while.

Regardless of sam.samhorn's answer (I'd still like it, but it's not as necessary as I originally thought), there is a rather large post I want to make in the thread before the day ends. Something that should completely break the setup open. (Here's a teaser: I suspect, given the kills, that "Weak Mafia Goon" meant that scotmany could kill only every other night... hence the burning kill N2.)

I'm mulling over whether a sam.samhorn answer to my question still has enough merit to warrant waiting on that big post until he claims.

As for farside... I expected that answer from her, actually. Given Chaucer being vanilla and the elaboration on flavor (either farside has done her homework or she's legit), coupled with scotmany's behavior towards her, I'm inclined to say she's legit.

[Tarhalindur]

Actually, I can't completely confirm sam.samhorn regardless of his answer, so I might as well just tell you all what I figured out: namely, I think I've figured out exactly how the setup works.

The key realization came to me while I was pondering a few facts:
- St. Thomas Aquinas was partially NK immune. I couldn't immediately see a flavor reason for this - like my own character and a few others, St. Thomas Aquinas is mainly known for his writings, so I had been fairly sure that he was vanilla town (along with the rest of the writers and the conquerors). What flavor reason justified him being partially NK immune?
- Why did Stark make that claim about "couldn't be made to look like an outlaw"? It just didn't make sense - how did that imply partially NK immune?

Then I got to thinking about a couple of facts:
- Prince John, in the Robin Hood legends, is famous for trying and executing outlaws. Stark claimed that he was unable to be made to look like an outlaw. Coincidence?
- Burning at the stake (the flavor STRONGLY suggested for Xyl's demise) is, to the best of my knowledge, only associated with two things in the middle ages: witch hunts (which occured mainly AFTER the Middle Ages, were group efforts with few, if any, famous participants, and even then the popularity of burning in witch hints is overstated) and the Inquistion (hello Torquemada!).

Then the key realization hit me:

The partially NK immune town were each immune to a single scum's kill.

- Yosarian2 had heavy armor, stated to be able to resist strong blows. There's two Mafiosos who he could have been immune against (scotmany or Rogueben), but given that Vlad was a power role and armor doesn't seem that useful against beheading I suspect he was immune to Rogueben (Vlad the Impaler... I'd guess his kill was an impaling method) kills. (I also wouldn't be surprised, given a few notes later on, if Rogueben was only NK immune when he wasn't making the Mafia kill*...).
- Stark was immune to Kmd kills. Fairly obvious, given his claimed flavor: Prince John couldn't make him look like an outlaw, which make sense as the flavor for Prince John's kill.
- Korejora, however, doesn't make immediate sense. There's no reason why Aquinas, despite his fame, should be immune to either a Vlad the Impaler kill or a beheading kill (Gilles de Rais was a real-life serial killer).

* - A major reason for this assumption is that the Mason making the Mason kill can't use any other abilities when making the kill (not sure how camn's daykill would have interacted with the mason kill); I'd expect the Mafia kill to work similarly.

That's when the second realization hit me:

Korejora was immune to the burning kill.

There's NO way the Inquisition would have been able to find Thomas Aquinas a heretic (and thus burn him at the stake), so it would make sense that Aquinas was immune to that kill.

BUT, there's a problem. There are TWO saints claimed/revealed in the game (both Doctors of the (Catholic) Church, even). The first is Thomas Aquinas. The second is... my own role, The Venerable Bede.

This apparent contradiction, however, can be resolved fairly quickly with a little sleuthing. The Venerable Bede appears to have been canonized in 1899, well after the Middle Ages (so he wouldn't have been unassailable to the Spanish Inquisition of the 1400's). Thomas Aquinas, however, was canonized in 1323, and is well-known enough that no Inquisitor would be able to convict them.

(Alternate possibility given what I've been able to find is that I'm ALSO immune to the burning kill, but I find that unlikely.)

Now, there is an immediate and blatantly obvious candidate for who could be responsible for the burning kill, given claimed role names: Torquemada, infamous Inquisitor General. The flavor also makes sense for a scum name cop, and his claimed N2 result (Yos investigation) could easily be faked.

Why would the scum have a role name cop? There's actually two possible reasons other than the catch-all "because town wouldn't expect the only investigative role to be scum" argument. The first is that scum don't have safeclaims and OGML wanted to give them something to not get totally owned by counterclaims. The second, less likely, possibility, which I only realized in the last day or so, is that the Mafia were actually told which role names were immune to which kill (in this case, DGB would be RIGHT about the Mafia running a gambit with the Aquinas claim - specifically, sacrificing their weakest member to get the townie they couldn't kill dead and hopefully use Slicey to skate into the endgame).

That left two questions: Who could be immune to the beheading kill, and why did the Mafia send a Mafia power role (presumably Slicey) to kill N2 instead of a goon?

Then it hit me:

They didn't send scotmany to make the N2 kill because they COULDN'T send scotmany to make the N2 kill.

I'll bet that "Weak Mafia Goon" meant that scotmany couldn't be sent to make the kill two nights in a row (forcing the Mafia to send a power role to kill). This also leaves open the possibility that there is no townie immune to beheading kills (since that weak Mafia goon drawback prevents them from just sending out the one Mafioso who can kill any unprotected player each night - this possibility is why I decided to drop this information).

My read on the setup is that it is one of the following 2 setups:

1x Vehm (3x Mason-Vigs) recruiter
1x 3-shot dayvig
2x Martyr
1x Vote Motivator
3x Partially NK Immune Town (1 per non-beheading kill method)
6x Vanilla Town

1x Mafia Roleblocker
1x UNK Mafia
1x Mafia Name Cop
1x Weak Mafia Goon (can kill only every other night)
(Mafia weakened by having to send out a power role - blocking that power role - at least every other night)

OR:

1x Vehm recruiter
1x 3-shot dayvig
2x Martyr
1x Vote Doubler
4x Partially NK immune town (one per kill method)
5x Vanilla Town

1x Mafia Roleblocker
1x UNK Mafia
1x Mafia Name Cop
1x Weak Mafia Goon

Both look fairly balanced to me (the latter somewhat more so), particularly with the sheer blocking/killing power the town has. It reminds me of one of my own setups, in fact.

Side note: Given the numbers, camn cannot be SK if Slicey is Mafia - which I believe he is.

NOW, we can get around to killing the last Mafioso.

Vote: Slicey

[Tarhalindur]

Tar, you are a convincing guy but i have some questions for you:
a) who do you think sent the kill last night? I assume scotmany, right? That means beheaded is his kill method.

Exactly. Moreover, since there was a burning kill N2 balance and both Rogueben and Kmd died on D2, that means that the last living Mafioso (balance says 4 Mafia to me) has the burning kill.

b) different killing methods would explain the partially night kill inmunes townies, right?

Exactly - each was immune to one kill method.

c) So, you think this Aqunas thing was a gambit for scum. Scotmany claimed Aquinas to get a counterclaim for the real Aquinas. But why?

Incorrect - it's *possible* that the scotmany Aquinas claim was a gambit, and this can be the case if and ONLY if scum were informed of the names of the NK immune town (in which case they were trying to sacrifice scotmany in the hopes of getting the real Aquinas lynched and completely freeing Slicey's kill).

More likely, scotmany just used Wiki or personal knowledge, thought Aquinas would be a good falseclaim, and found out that he was wrong the hard way.

d)Any comments on Rogueben claim, who was not Vlad the Impaler? Do you think scum have fakeclaims or he looked it up in wikipedia?

Wiki or personal knowledge, especially since the claim is VERY late Middle Ages (possibly too late to qualify as Middle Ages).

I'd guess Wiki myself - Vlad the Impaler fought off an Ottoman invasion during his life, and Rogueben might have gotten the idea to use Suleiman from that (especially since a dead Saladin made the claim plausible and the late date of the claim made it unlikely to be counterclaimed).

c) why Slicey coming up scum will make camn a non-sk?

Because hasdgfas (Slicey) got my correct rolename N1 (proving that he is a name cop) and the following setup is, by my read, imbalanced against the town:

-1x Vehm Master
-1x Vote Motivator
-2x Martyr
-4x Partially NK Immune Town
-5x Vanilla Town

-1x Mafia Roleblocker
-1x UNK Mafia
-1x Mafia Name Cop
-1x Weak Mafia Goon

-1x Daykilling SK

(Also, as long as we lynch a Mafioso today, camn can't win even if she IS SK - since 5 Mafia + SK is pretty much impossible, lynching a Mafioso today removes their kill from the game and ensures at least 4 players are alive D5, which is more than enough to lynch camn even through a daykill.)

d) What happens if Slicey coming up town?

Masons presumably kill sam.samhorn tonight (any other option leads to Prisoner's Dilemma at best unless camn is Mason (not saying either way...), in which case the best we can hope for is that last townie is the kingmaker between Mafia and camn)

If camn is SK with unlimited daykill and sam.samhorn was Mafia, we lose immediately after this. If camn is town and sam.samhorn is Mafia, we win. If camn is SK and a player other than sam.samhorn is Mafia, either we wind up in Kingmaker or with camn choosing her own fate. Otherwise, we lynch farside tomorrow and the last Mason kills poptajo N5 if necessary for the town, ensuring a town win or everybody dies draw.

e? you think there is a scum between farside and sam?

Doubtful, given how strongly I believe Slicey is scum. If there is scum in those two, it's sam.samhorn.

Pleas nobody hammer. I think these questions are important.

Roger that...

[Tarhalindur]

Happy birthday, BTW, OGML!

This.

[Tarhalindur]

Ok tar. Still some things that arent that clear.

a) Do you think that scotmany could exactly guess a name in the game? And why did they have to sacrifice him when korejora had to claim anyways (massclaim) and find out about the inmune townie?

I'm not completely sure what you're trying to say with the first question:

1) Of course scotmany could choose a role name that wound up in the game, since he wound up counterclaimed.
2) The ONLY way that play would make sense is if the scum thought they couldn't kill Aquinas through any of their NKs and would have to gamble on getting him mislynched by sacrificing scotmany.

That, however, is by FAR the less likely possibility - as I've said previously, the scenario I find more probable is that the scum had no safeclaims and scotmany just made a bad claim. It's just setup-breaking time, so I'm covering as many possibilities as I can think of. (That's also why I'm still running over "camn is SK" scenarios.)

b) Do you think its strange that farside thinks that there has to be scum between she and sam?

No, it's not strange at all, just annoyingly misguided.

Farside: Samhorn is NOT getting a free ride. If Slicey is somehow town, samhorn's will be killed tonight by the Vehm.

If you consider not lynching samhorn today giving him a free pass, then... well, I can't believe you're giving Slicey a free pass, especially with his Torquemada claim, a burned(-at-the-stake) kill method, Korejora coming up partially NK immune, and scummy play that forced Slicey's predecessor has to claim D1 and succeeded in moving Slicey off of my confirmed list yesterday.

[Tarhalindur]

what in your flavor suggests 3 kills, camn?
.........
also, tar, i dont know why but i have this feeling that if there is a scum between farside and sam, it HAS to be farside.

Look at the reactions. Farside thought it had to be sam or her but sam entered the day with a vote on camn (retarded thing to do as scum). Also, I could bet that sam was not here when night hit.
Can you confirm or deny this, sam?

Can your plan still can make town win if you kill wrong tonight? I still dont think Slicey is the best lynch of the day but your arguments are convincing and I cant give you more reason than gut in this scenario.

Also, the only question I have left is that do you really think that scotmany could have guessed exactly the name of a player here (korejora counterclaimed) cuz its what you are assuming happened, right? or am I missing something?

1) Tajo, the point is that I strongly believe the last scum is Slicey, and if that's the case there CAN'T be scum between Samhorn and farside.

Here, let's rephrase it for emphasis: I believe that NEITHER farside22 or samhorn is scum. The only reason I'm considering how to deal with them if one of them is scum is to hedge against the possibility that I am somehow wrong about Slicey.

Here, let's rephrase it again for simplicity: It's really easy for both farside and samhorn to be unlikely to be scum, because it's very possible that neither one is scum.

(Also, as for why samhorn will be vigged over farside tonight in the UNLIKELY event that Slicey is not scum: Samhorn didn't have to be here for the Mafia to kill last night, since Scotmany could have sent the kill on his own. Also, trying to get camn lynched makes sense for a Mafioso, since they need to discredit either myself or camn to have any chance at winning.)

2) The only way my plan loses is if camn is antitown or if the last Mafioso is UNK, though it can currently draw if you're the last Mafioso (which I'm starting to reconsider given your play in the last day or so). Period.

The problem is that I can't simultaneously hedge against camn being scum (SK) or against one of {farside, poptajo, samhorn} being scum.

Here's how it works:
- Lynch Slicey today. If he's somehow not Mafia, go to next step.
- Mafia kills me or Camn tonight. We kill an unconfirmed (presumably samhorn) tonight. If the person the Masons kill is not scum, go to next step.
- Day 6, 3 alive (including 1 Vehm member). Town lynches either farside or poptajo (the unconfirmeds), presumably farside. If Day 6 lynch is not scum, go to next step.
- Mafia kill last Vehm, Vehm kills last Mafioso. Game ends with no players alive.

Town loses if camn is scum with a daykill (game may end in draw otherwise) or if she's SK with the same win condition as in Mafia 87. Town also loses if the last Mafioso is bulletproof and survives to N6 (if our kill tonight fails, we have a confirmed Mafioso).

3) Thomas Aquinas is reasonably well known. Presumably Scotmany just made a bad/unlucky name claim and paid the price, much like I did in Stargate SG-1 ("Bill Lee" much?). Having actually been a Mafioso in this scenario (and survived, despite the bad claim, until the LAST unknown townie role name was revealed and counterclaimed me), trust me when I say it's not as improbable as some people seem to think it is.

[Tarhalindur]

I really just can't feel comfortable with lynching Slicey. I don't know I just get this feeling like I'm being manipulated by Tar.
I really think Sam or I should be lynched and if you really feel Slicey is scum kill him tonight. I mean did he say he was immune to NK's or something?

ARGGGH.

We could just NK Slicey tonight, yes, but if we lynch the last Mafioso today we can win EVEN IF CAMN IS SOMEHOW SK (unlikely, but I'm planning for worst-case scenarios here) and I'm pretty sure Slicey is the last scum.

Poptajo's play indicates to me that he is town.
Camn is the dayvig and thus isn't Mafia.
Your play today is absolutely stupid if you're scum, and everything else about you fits.
I'm Vehm, and given Scotmany's reaction to Xyl (which indicates to me that scotmany, and thus the Mafia, didn't know about the Vehm until we claimed it, which would not have happemned if a Mafioso was in the Vehm) D2 no Vehm member if Mafia*
sam.samhorn I have only a weak town read on, but I still think he's more likely to be town than Slicey, and I can vig him tonight if necessary.

* - I might as well drop this info now, since camn's made it very obvious of late and it puts the Mafia in WIFOM over which Vehm to kill tonight should it come to that: Camn is the other surviving Vehm member. She's not Mafia either.

[Tarhalindur]

And look, pop.. If Tar agrees, I would be willing to support a Farside Vig tonight, and a samhorn lynch tomorrow, if it comes to that.

I am almost certain of a town win, or at WORST, an everyone-dies draw (which I have never seen!)

The last scum would have to be YOU, Pop, for there to be anything other than a town-win at this point.

Ok, camn, I buy your crumbs.
I want to know how Tar reacts to the last farside post.

Why exactly are you stalling here?

[Tarhalindur]

And look, pop.. If Tar agrees, I would be willing to support a Farside Vig tonight, and a samhorn lynch tomorrow, if it comes to that.

I am almost certain of a town win, or at WORST, an everyone-dies draw (which I have never seen!)

The last scum would have to be YOU, Pop, for there to be anything other than a town-win at this point.

Ok, camn, I buy your crumbs.
I want to know how Tar reacts to the last farside post.

Why exactly are you stalling here?

I think its obvious. We are going to lynch Slicey today anyways, your points make sense and I only cant battle them with a gutty town read on Slicey. The point here is that I dont agree with you killing sam tonight.

Worst scenario is that somehow camn is a lucky SK (it doesnt matter if she is a Vehm or not or that she is mafia or not since we are dealing with third party here) We lynch Slicey, you kill sam. Assume both are town, therefore the scum nk goes online.... what happens?

We wake up with a mafia (farside), a sk (camn) and one of you and me (town). Doesnt seem so town autowin in the WORST scenario, right?
Therefore its important to go tomorrow with a DEAD mafioso, preferably lynching him today. In the best case, we would have won, in the worst case, we lose.

The decision you have tonight its important if and only if camn is a SK. Therefore, I ask Tar, do yo really trust camn? If yes, then Ill vote Slicey.

There might be some validity to that argument, given game balance (I don't think we can have a daykilling SK AND a Mafia name cop, and a guaranteed autowin requires a Mafia lynch today).

I so not support a Farside lynch at this time, because I'm almost certain she's town given her play today.

Give me a bit to look things over - if we're nuking Slicey tonight, I need to find my second scum candidate to lynch today.

Unvote

[Tarhalindur]

Also, now that I think about it: Scotmany12 needs to claim as well.

I second this motion.

What? I already know who he is.

Wait a minute...

Tajo, explain this post in full. NOW.

[Tarhalindur]

Partial PBPA, farside22:

Okay I'm reading the top 2 players in isolation.
Qwits. Sounds board. Mostly one liners and following and more following. Soft claimed vanilla. More one liners.
In short I think qwints is mostly board and behind in the game. I need to read Kmd's case on him but readin qwints alone I saw nothing but a board soul who is not helping the town.

He seems bascially the way I feel.

Now that I look at it, this post is a pretty strong vanilla townie breadcrumb.

Now on cow:

Not sure why cow pushes zwet's claim. Did he not watch braveheart? The problem with asking about a confirmed townie is you don't know if a doctor or protecting role exsist in the game so why out that person?

there are plenty of ways for a role to avoid getting NK'd. But even if the dayvig was NK'd, I don't find that to be a huge negative. Sure, we lose a power role, but the scum could easily have made a more crippling kill than a dayvig.

Excuse me?

Later cow makes a case on kmd but later backs off and joins the qwints BW with nothing to add or say on it.
Yes I have been quiet. I hate, hate, hate day 1 in large games. That's why I would rather replace in a large game then start in day 1.

Between cow and qwints just the solo read alone I think cow is scummier.
I know this will be an odd thing to be picky about but I didnt' get the I will be gone for 4 or 5 days you can replace me if neccessary comment. It's only 5 days why state that you could be replaced? What mod would replace someone who is going to be gone less then a week? Plus it comes when he is getting pressure about his wanting the vig to claim.
Know no I'm not saying he planned it his leave and the pressure. I'm saying stating he can be replaced looks like a cheap way out. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I also don't like his vote on qwints with nothing there.

vote: hascow

Not IIoA - and while farside22's last point looks misguided, she's got a good catch on that hascow post (for reference, hascow = Slicey).

If hascow is telling the truth, he can be (1) nightkilled or (2) prove his ability.

Seeing cow's claim. Although I don't like it I agree with the above.

unvote:
vote: stark

I dont' agree with the qwints wagon at all.

Again, her reaction to the qwints wagon is a vanilla town tell.

Why would you role block a cop? He should give up something if he has info or he most likely will be killed by scum. I don't like the claim. Something feels wrong but I'm going to see if he comes up with anything as proff first. Why do you want him to not get results?

Someone missed the point...

What I saying is that I hope hascows isn't scum and he'll just claim to be "roleblocked" at the beginning of each day in order to put off having to prove his role.

Also, are you seriously asking why a mafia roleblocker would role block a cop?

Your asking him to be blocked are you telling the scum to block him for a reason? I don't get why? I was a role cop and town once. It was quiet helpful even if the scum (cough another game with DGB) tried to make me look scummy for the role so don't mind be for giving him a shot.
Hascow can confirm town with that role. Did you miss that? I think you believe he is going to lie and with that you are giving him an out. Seriously we dont' know (execpt scum) if there is a scum role blocker but I would hope if we have a town role blocker they won't block cow.

Farside22 has bad reading comprehension, but there's a valid point hiding in here, now that I think about it... why *wasn't* hasdgfas/Slicey blocked N1, given that we now KNOW the scum had a roleblocker? I guess the Mafia could have decided that Caboose was a bigger threat even if hasdgfas was town, but given their role names...

Just an fyi about what I find with kmd is meta. Being a mod and having kmd as town and mafia in my games sometimes I feel like I see a difference.

Kmd: Joke votes camn. I've seen him do this before with Zazie where they were both scum buddies.
I see nothing wrong with TSQ having a serious vote so early in the game. Why the issue?
Don't like Kmd's following of Yos on the Zwet wagon. Also this:

This is a good point. If he's scum dayvig, I don't want to give him a chance to shoot a townie.

Odds of shooting townie is higher. Scum however fear vigs more then town do.

I honestly don't think scum would come right out and say something like what Sam did just because of alignment. The argument on TSQ though, I can buy. Still think a Zwet lynch is better, but if that's not going to happen, I'm prepared to switch to TSQ.

IE: I will go where ever the most vote are and give up my push easily.


Why would scum use code when they can talk at night?

Makes a big post in regards to catching up but notice not really scum suspects.

Next post Does a PBPA on Qwints: Why him?
Personally I don't like catch up and then a PBPA on one player without a reason.

That's just my RVS style. I do it in pretty much every game I play with people who have been in other games I've enjoyed.

ORLY! Be back to this one in a second. Yup this is true. I see it now.


Buddies up to Camn a lot. Why you don't know her alignment right. Why buddy with her?



Qwints turned out town what does that say about your day 1 push?
Xly always lurker votes. It's a null tell.

Wait now tajo. What the heck happened with Xyl? Now Camn is on your list after all that day 1 buddy up?

Seriously I see soft scum bussing all over Camn on this.

Qwints caught my attention based on gut. I looked into it and saw a case. I posted that case. Is that scummy?

Its scummy as it came from out of nowhere. Thin air PBPA without reasoning or thoughts before. Yay I see it as scummy. Or if you like better.
Scum attempting to look town.

How have I buddied with camn? And if you think I did, how was it any different from this game where we were both town?

Why buddy up? You dont' do it with Llama till you feel he is town. You don't do it with others I have seen in a game when your town unless you feel they are town. I know you and your defending me without a reason.
Yay all this just doesnt' sit well with me.

Qwints being town means I was wrong. What more do you expect me to say?

Why did you feel so strong about a case on him when his soft claim and comments didn't match up to your reasoning?
I mean seriously all you said after that case is I like Qwints lynch over and over again.

Xyl claimed and became basically confirmed. Why am I going to go after someone who is basically confirmed? And I can't be suspicious of someone if I previously thought they were town? Can you honestly tell me you have NEVER changed your mind on someone as town?

Why tajo? I understand chaning your mind but I've gotten nothing but town vibes from tajo.

See comments in bold.

There were many times you made joke comments to Camn and back and forth but by for this quote was the worse I say.

Well... Camn says she's biased on me and I think I feel the same with her. I see her massively buddying up to Yos with the "legend" comment, but one of my points against her in Tranquility was buddying up to Rishi early in the game. Remember that she was town... I don't even know what tells to look for with her because I was so wrong on her in the other game. =/

Hey camn. Wanna use Zwet to see if my Gambit (actually an analysis strategy more than a Gambit when I use it like this) works better on a confirmed town wagon? hasdgfas, Thestatusquo, Yosarian2, scotmany12, sam.samhorn, Kmd4390. Those were the Zwet voters. (Actually, at quick glance, Qwints, Caboose, and Cow all were voting Zwet at one point too.) I bet we can find an experienced scum or 2 or maybe even 3 on this wagon. Qwints, Yos, TSQ would be my top choices. Cow and Scot are meh as well. So yeah, I'm doing this again based on the simple fact that Zwet was town. Stef being scum ruined the hell out of it last time. I'm gonna piss off Camn here and say this: My analysis strategy reinforces my scum read on Qwints. It also reinforces any suspicion I may get on any of these players later.

I need to read another game to see meta? Ugh do I have time for that right now?
No

Someone else want to fill me in if this was norm?

Please don't I consider it a null tell if so. Scum/ town it's easy to buddy up to people. I tend to believe scum before town in cases but if you have history of it in one game fine but that's one game. You show me other games I might reconsider it more.

Starts to make a coherent case against Kmd, but never votes for him. Usually, I'd call that a bussing tell, but I'm not so sure here: the first of these posts occured on 03/13/2009 at 11:05 A.M, the last occured at 12:18 P.M of the same day and OGML announced the dayvigging of Kmd at 12:24 P.M. on the same day. That, to me, implies that it's possible that farside would have switched over to Kmd if not for him getting dayvigged.

I WANT BOTH KOREJORA AND FARSIDE TO CLAIM IN THEIR NEXT POST.

Why? Are you lynching me? Does your need for my claim mean that much in this game?

DGB I know I'm town. Dont know why you think Camn isn't scum but if you think stark is still scum and after the horride claim from him yesterday I would lynch him as well.

unvote:
vote: Stark

@tajo: Answer the above questions then I will claim.

Yuck, that's very scummy.

Why? Are you lynching me? Does your need for my claim mean that much in this game?

Yes it does, on account of TSQ's suspicious interactions with you. We want to be sure we're lynching the right player.

I dont' know about korejora, but I know I'm just a vanilla townie. Not worth crap in this game. My name is Dante Alighieri. I got a brief discription of the guy and my win condition is getting rid of threats to the town.

I hate being vanilla. I find it quite boring.

Consistent with her reaction to qwints's play.

Why is sam town over me tajo? I dont' care if you lynch me today. I even believe the lynch should be sam or me. That get's rid of town vanilla's with no confirmation.

This kind of play (pushing for a lynch on either herself or sam.samhorn) is absolutely SUICIDAL as scum - the only time I've ever seen it happen before is with CKD in Mafia 75. If Farside is Mafia, she must be really, REALLY demoralized Mafia.

Hell, it reminds me of MY play in Mafia 75 (where I was extremely scummy-looking vanilla and would have pushed through my own lynch on the last day if not for the last scum CKD getting to lynch count before I did so).

its obvious from a reread and my feelings ALL the gam.
you are not playing your town meta and your play here reminds me of some play where you have been scum before.... (still ongoing but you know what im talking about)
and sam is too polemic to be scum.

vote : farside

i really REALLY prefer farside being lynched now instead of sam.
I also think Slicey is town.

I hope this game teach's you that your meta read on me sucks. Unless your scum and have everyone fooled but I don't believe you are scum I just think you need to adjust your thinking to the fact I HATE BEING VANILLA

She's really being quite consistent here.

I can't even go away for a weekend and you want to prod me!
No offense but I actually have a life and was celebrating Aerin's birthday on Saturday and taking care of him on Sunday so no weekend prods.

Now for flavor on my character.

I'm Dante Alighieri - time period is 1265 - 1321 I wrote the Divine Comedy. I'm a poet from Florence.
Townie basically.

I really, really like this claim - given what I know, that's EXACTLY what I'd expect from a vanilla townie. (Yes, that includes the "from Florence", especially since Florence was so important to the real-life Dante.)

I get the strong impression that this claim is paraphrased from an actual mod PM, and I don't think OGML has taken to giving his Mafiosos the Mafia Falseclaim ability.

I really just can't feel comfortable with lynching Slicey. I don't know I just get this feeling like I'm being manipulated by Tar.
I really think Sam or I should be lynched and if you really feel Slicey is scum kill him tonight. I mean did he say he was immune to NK's or something?

I have severe difficulty seeing this insistence about lynching a claimed vanilla over a claimed power role come from a Mafioso.

Last point in farside's favor: Scotmany attacked farside22 very heavily D2 and D3, and he seems to have largely ignored other Mafiosos rather than bus.

Farside hasn't played well this game, but I'm pretty sure she's town. I could grudginly accept a farside lynch today, but I'd really rather lynch samhorn if we're not lynching Slicey.

[Tarhalindur]

Also, now that I think about it: Scotmany12 needs to claim as well.

I second this motion.

What? I already know who he is.

Wait a minute...

Tajo, explain this post in full. NOW.

I thought scotmany was Robin Hood.

Okay, that makes sense.

(Also, I need to keep in mind that Scotmany attacked you for attacking Kmd. That's Chainsaw Defense, and that's a huge point in your favor.)

[Tarhalindur]

Looking it over:

- We autowin in either of the following situations: there is 1 Mafioso surviving, or there is 1 Mafioso + 1 SK alive and we lynch the Mafioso today (lynching SK first is a horrible idea, because the only possible SK - camn - comprises 50% of the Vehm and is therefore key to ensuring the deaths of all Mafia).

- Camn can't be Mafia, but it is weakly possible that she is SK. She cannot, however, be SK if Slicey is scum, because if she was the game would be horribly balanced against the town.
- populartajo, despite his single-minded insistence on farside being scum, is probably town, given how strong his play before today was.
- farside22 is probably town, given how strongly she crumbed vanilla town early and some good play on Day 2.
- Slicey is probably the last scum. There is, however, a caveat: if camn is SK, Slicey cannot be scum. Moreover, given his proven ability (role name cop), Slicey should not be NK immune. Due to this, we should be better off Vehm-killing Slicey tonight, because we don't gain anything by lynching him instead of killing him (Slicey-Mafia, camn-SK is implausible at best given game balance) and we DO gain something by not killing him today if he is, somehow, town (at least a 33% chance that we can autowin even if camn is SK).

That leaves sam.samhorn, who is the only other plausible candidate for being scum, whose play today is potentially consistent with trying to deconfirm a townie (so is tajo's, but tajo has stronger early play), and who was one of the last players to claim (less chance of counterclaim).

Lynch sam.samhorn
Vehm kill Slicey
If we kill scum and the game continued, lynch camn (quickly if the last scum successfully killed). If we didn't kill scum, lynch/vig populartajo and farside tomorrow (probably farside then poptajo).

The game shouldn't last until then, however.

I'm ready.

Vote: sam.samhorn

[Tarhalindur]

Second rule of Tarhalindur town play: I suck at scumhunting (especially not buying Mafia defenses... Vi in Mafia 87, and now Scotmany here).

First rule of Tarhalindur town play: I am very, very good at breaking setups in half.

Also, did Tajo not know he was a Tracker, or did he lie about his role???

[Tarhalindur]

Now, roles? (I figure they'll show up eventually, but I'd prefer sooner rather than later.)

[Tarhalindur]

Note to self: Never replace in an OGML game. I'm always scum. I actually replaced because I saw that cow was a confirmed town, and I knew that scot was scum (he did NO scumhunting the entire game, for obvious reasons.)

I got at least one mason right (DGB).

I thought the other one was tajo, who I also thought was a rolecop.

>___>

ugh if Xyl didn't pick three town players in his group, scum may have had a shot at winning. >_>

Heh heh heh.

See, that's EXACTLY what we wanted you to think. I spent a good portion of Day 3 trying to give you guys that impression.

[Tarhalindur]

I called EVERYTHING except for the following:

- 3x scum having safeclaims (why the hell they didn't use that Richard the Lionheart safeclaim for scotmany I don't know, same for hasdgfas claiming his real role name instead of Christopher Columbus)
- Populartajo being a tracker (why didn't you claim that, poptajo? I could have given us an autowin much faster that way - OGML likes his trackers).
- Yosarian2 being immune to Hereward daykills (the reveal wasn't enough for me to know he was daykill immune - that Yosarian Vehm kill looks much better to me now, we dodged an arrow - er, bullet - there.)

[Tarhalindur]

Camn, DGB, any problems if I post the QuickTopic?

[Tarhalindur]

I called EVERYTHING except for the following:

- 3x scum having safeclaims (why the hell they didn't use that Richard the Lionheart safeclaim for scotmany I don't know, same for hasdgfas claiming his real role name instead of Christopher Columbus)
- Populartajo being a tracker (why didn't you claim that, poptajo? I could have given us an autowin much faster that way - OGML likes his trackers).
- Yosarian2 being immune to Hereward daykills (the reveal wasn't enough for me to know he was daykill immune - that Yosarian Vehm kill looks much better to me now, we dodged an arrow - er, bullet - there.)

Columbus, name cop? Really? I couldn't see a way to make it fit and thought I'd roll the dice.
(hope it's ok I'm participating in post-game after leaving. I was interested, but falling behind was a vicous cycle)

Veteran explorer flavor comes to mind.

Of course, if I had been Mafia in your position Day 1 I would likely have hijacked one of the other two scum's safeclaims, both of which can be justified by royal historians/informatants/intelligentsia looking up what information they can find about the player... Columbus works better for someone like Vlad the Impaler (would work really well as flavor for an UNK role, except that standard UNK Townie is an autolynch claim in the current meta).

[Tarhalindur]

Side comment: DGB pretty well proved that her scumhunting is hit-or-miss at best here. She pegged onto Kmd and Rogueben nicely, but on Night 3 she both wanted to leave Scotmany alive (WTF WTF WTF) AND tried to switch her vote motivate to SLICEY, of all people. I mean, my gods, people...

[Tarhalindur]

Comments:

The mafia utterly failed to communicate with one another, which in my opinion definitely contributed to their total breakdown from day two onwards. They barely discussed their roles with each other and never shared safeclaims in private, leaving scot stranded without a claim when he needed it. Things could have turned out VERY differently if scot had had something safe to claim (or hell, if he had even claimed one of the sample roles), as he was coasting on some pretty high opinions from members of the very dangerous Vehmgericht.

Oh.

WTF.

That does explain the bad hasdgfas falseclaim, though. A good falseclaim maker could probably have cobbled something together from the Christopher Columbus safeclaim, but the others were better (and scotmany REALLY needed that safeclaim).

I'd love to see that QuickTopic, just to see the Mafia fail to use their best weapon (being the informed minority). Would our Mafiosos like to help out with a nice link?

hasdgfas claiming his real rolename was probably the biggest blunder of the game, I would have to say. This too could have been avoided by a little bit more mafia foresight and coordination - pregame discussion by the mafia was literally one "I'm here" post from each member and nothing else. Any sort of discussion of the level of flavor involved in the roles and mechanics might have tipped somebody in the group off to the fact that the flavor of kills might be directly traceable.

OMFG. Surely they've learned that at minimum you post your role PM pregame.

Also, you'd think that Mafiosos would know that, when you have a defined kill method, that means that kill method is potentially traceable.

Also, DGB - about those daytalking Mafiosos...

tajo, I don't think I'll ever understand your insistence on farside being scum. Hell, by day four you had actually confirmed her as town with your role, unless you believed there were two scum left at that point - you had a negative track result on her for both the night of the burning kill and the beheading kill.

*facepalm*

Good thing the Mafia miskilled N3, or Slicey might have pulled the game off.

Tar, well done cracking the setup open. This game was meant to make flavor an integral part of the game, and you were the first person to really notice this. I know Korejora realized this as well, but too late, as she was apparently lynched while in the process of working out that the flavor of her PM almost definitely made Slicey scum and her a partial BP.

Breaking the setup open was pretty much a function of WWTD? (What Would Tarhalindur Do?). Heavy emphasis on killing roles and kill-preventing roles, strong flavor component - the setup really reminds me of my just-completed Suzumiya Haruhi game, tbh.

There's a reason I'm a good moderator and a mediocre player (until endgame and massclaim) - as I said above, I'm a bad scumhunter, but I'm VERY good with setups.

[Tarhalindur]

Mason QuickTopic of "apparently we were more organized than the Mafia":

http://www.quicktopic.com/42/H/5GKJpZHrSbL2