MKM II GAME OVER

[semioldguy]

Hello everyone!

I'm going to read through the thread real quick. Back to post in a bit.

[semioldguy]

First thing:

Unvote

When worded properly, we can confirm the questioner and answer-er, given the descriptions. I have no issue with that, however there's one item I think will be renderer less useful. Ultimately though, given the nature of power-roles in MKMI and items, the general town abilities are not hard to guess.

I think all items could be potentially less useful once revealed how they work.

3 scum groups is a LOT. Even if its just mario and luigi for the mushroom kingdom, donkey and diddy kong for the DK crew, and wario by himself (like a SK), that's 5 scum and 12 town with 3 kills per night possible, and I don't see how a mod could create a write up that stacked against us.

Again, this was all conjecture and making educated guesses, but I think its important to know what we may be up against.

With the ready to jump in mechanic, we might not even have any third parties yet, they might be on the way to the castle so to speak. I'm guessing that the jump in mechanic will be used to help keep the game balanced as it goes on. Also, as per MKMI (which I read in its entirety) would suggest that third parties may have win conditions other than eliminating the town that might not be based around night kills.

Hm, I just forgot something, what do you think the effect of the "ready to jump in" players will be? What can we assume about them? Has anyone played with a mechanic such as this before?

See above.

I would ask if you go ahead that you don't ask questions about the most expensive because that could seriously diminish its effectiveness.

One thing I don't think should be mentioned is the cost of items as costs may be different from player to player. For example, Peach last game was restricted use of some items and had to pay more for the ones she could use. Players revealing the costs of their items could give insight to their role importance/abilities which I don't think we should do.

When everyone not in the army is dead.

Gorrad is prob town.

At some point you need to explain why you think this, because I don't think it's very conclusive yet at all.

[semioldguy]

I don't like the claim item abilities plan. I don't think it's very foolproof and may or may not reveal a lot of information to scum that we don't want revealed. I also don't necessarily believe that it will confirm townies as you may think it does (I could be wrong since you haven't said how you plan to do this, I just haven't thought of a good implementation myself that I don't see a bunch of holes in). I am currently against revealing item costs for reasons I stated in my previous post.

As pacman already revealed, I do have Bowser's Castle Items in my PM and am able to purchase them at night.

[semioldguy]

With the ready to jump in mechanic,

we might not even have any third parties yet

, they might be on the way to the castle so to speak.

I doubt this. If the first few jumpees started flipping 3rd party, the rest of them would be at a severe disadvantage at progressing through the game.

I never said it would have to be the first few.

I'm guessing that the jump in mechanic will be used to help keep the game balanced as it goes on.

I really doubt this. Forces the mod to start making judgement calls on what is balanced and what isn't. They probably have pre-destined jump-in points.

Why would it have to be judgement calls? I was thinking more along the lines of being part of a predetermined formula.

[semioldguy]

Not much has changed, but it hasn't been posted by tajo in a couple days.

People with items description

Tajo
Zwet
Qwints
caf19
semioldguy

pacman

Surye
Moratorium

People with no items description

Gorrad
Ace
Shadow Knight

Refusing to

Empking
Ortolan
Shinnen

Still no claim

k7 (prodded Saturday, posted but no content or mention of plan in his post)
Cream (prodded Saturday and hasn't posted since prod)
Rice (Refuses to comply without knowing more)
WLC

Dubya

(still not checked in)

[semioldguy]

The relatively small number of people objecting to the item claiming plan makes me wonder if it consists entirely of scum.

Although there is a relatively low number refusing to comply with this plan (which is a plan I'm not too sure of myself), among the people who are providing whether or not they have item descriptions there are some among us who still don't necessarily agree that the plan will work or be good for the town. What is your opinion of those people in comparison to the ones who refuse to give their item information?

After enough people have opposed or tried to discredit the plan, do you think it would be easy for scum to just slip in and agree with the plan thinking to themselves that it isn't likely to go through but would be something they could point back to support a claim of being in Bowser's Army?

[semioldguy]

@poulartajo

Cream has been prodded. Rice posted 5 posts before you and less than 24 hours ago and has given opinions about the plan, so I don't think Rice needs to be prodded. WLC needs to check in after replacing though

[semioldguy]

I am very skeptical of the plan. I don't know if it's as good as you are making it out to be, though I can't know for sure until everyone either admits to having items or not (or refuses to cooperate) and you reveal the next step of the plan. I disagree with the potential ways I see the plan going next, it could be that I just haven't thought of everything though. I trust your intentions, but I don't yet trust the plan until I actually know what the plan is.

[semioldguy]

Right now most of the focus of this game is all around this plan. In order to move on we need to get past the stage of people complying or refusing to go along. Me trying to further the game by reposting your list to get the last few people on (or off) board will get us past what has become in the past few days pretty stagnant discussion.

[semioldguy]

Cream147 said he was going to catch up yesterday. He hasn't.

Vote: Cream147

Not a whole lot of content from him and is currently the only one delaying moving past this part of the plan and hence keeping the game from moving forward.

[semioldguy]

@Empking

What made you change your mind about refusing to share whether you had knowledge of Bowser's Castle items to now saying that you don't have the item descriptions?

[semioldguy]

Technically we would do something really lame like "what is the seventh letter in the description for this item" but I don't think that will be treated kindly by the mod, amirite, mod?

I would consider that quoting a part of your role pm, which is not allowed. Use paraphrasing only if you want to say anything about your role (except for your rolename).

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-Shinnen_no_Me (2): Riceballtail, Surye
-Gorrad (2): Empking, ortolan
-zwetschenwasser (2): Shinnen_no_Me, AceMarksman
-Empking (1): zwetschenwasser
-AceMarksman (1): Shadow Knight
-killa seven (1): qwints
-ortolan (1): populartajo
-Cream147 (1): semioldguy

Not voting (6): killa seven, Moratorium, WeyounsLastClone, Cream147, Gorrad, caf19

With 17 alive it takes 9 real votes to lynch.

[semioldguy]

I think that most of the people in the claiming to have items list are town. I don't think yes/no questions are the best way to go about trying to catch someone. We can still come up with other questions that don't have yes/no answer and wouldn't completely reveal how the items work.

Also tajo, you omitted me from any part your list.

[semioldguy]

I have an idea. What about if every player of the "I have items description" list prepares a question for another player in the list?
That way we have another way to test.

I like this idea.

[semioldguy]

Because the ways I was thinking of for the next step didn't seem very foolproof to me. And before you ask me to explain what those ways are, I think it best not to explain them before testing. I will explain later if I need to though.

I'd be ready to answer/ask the first question if i need to be.

[semioldguy]

I do have item descriptions, why don't you think I do?

[semioldguy]

I was leery of your plan at first because I couldn't see how it would work, but lacking descriptions, I was trusting you to catch scum. ... I'm gonna be bitter until you bag a scum. If your plan gets us ahead or wins us the game, I'll eat crow and sing your praises.

I thought the plan was more about confirming townies, and confirming enough townies to further our targets for scum hunting. If the scum want to get themselves caught while we confirm some townies, then that's a bonus in my eyes.

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-Shinnen_no_Me (2): Riceballtail, Surye
-Gorrad (2): Empking, ortolan
-zwetschenwasser (2): Shinnen_no_Me, AceMarksman
-Empking (1): zwetschenwasser
-AceMarksman (1): Shadow Knight
-killa seven (1): qwints
-ortolan (1): populartajo
-Cream147 (1): semioldguy

Not voting (6): killa seven, Moratorium, WeyounsLastClone, Cream147, Gorrad, caf19

With 17 alive it takes 9 real votes to lynch.

[semioldguy]

I already said why I didn't like item costs, because that could be different for different characters (like last game where different characters had cheaper or more expensive costs for items). For example, last game the mushrooms cost 2 coins instead of 3 for Toad players. No one would know that except for the Toads. The Toads were not the only town-aligned role last game.

The item abilities are something that are going to be consistent between everyone's descriptions. Questions about some of the abilities can be general enough not to reveal exactly how they work, but also specific enough to know that they player knows how the item functions.

[semioldguy]

Please take Zwets off your list as well Tajo. I think he needs a question eventually. No, I don't think what he said so far necessarily confirms him at all. Mora should be taken off too I think.

After everyone else answers questions, I'd like Tajo to be asked and answer a question too. No one should float by. Him confirming/denying correct answers doesn't necessarily prove him because he could be the only scum on that list, if so and knowing that he is, he could deduce that everyone's answers were correct without actually knowing the answers himself.

[semioldguy]

I suppose there are other questions we could ask actually, e.g. 'what is the sum of the prices of items x and y'.

You can't ask this once one of the totals has been established, because then it just becomes a math problem and not that hard to figure out.

[semioldguy]

And maybe I have a question for 'tajo:

How many extra words does the description of the second bowser's castle item have compared to the first? (you may count the word with the ' in it as one word)

I think answering that question might warrant a mod-kill.

[semioldguy]

Two questions to be answered by two different people in order:

1. List the items from least expensive to most expensive using '<', '>' and/or '=' signs.

2. How much does the Bob-omb cost?

I am working on putting together strings of item questions to be asked without giving away full functionality, but confirming knowledge.


People who have already answered a question:
Qwints
caf19
WLC

People who have not yet answered a question:
Tajo
Zwet
semioldguy
Surye
Moratorium

[semioldguy]

Do not comment on the questions. Do not comment on the answers. Unless you are the person answering the question, do not say anything about them at all.

[semioldguy]

People who have not yet answered a question:
Tajo
Zwet
semioldguy
Surye
Moratorium

Anyone from that list (minus me at the moment, because I asked the two questions) Unless people want me to answer my own question for some reason, which I would be fine with doing. For integrity purposes though I'd think me not answering a question I came up with seems best.

[semioldguy]

Semiolduy, your questions give too much information to the scum.
Think in another one.

I

strongly

disagree.

@Ace
My first question doesn't give away anything more than Populartajo's question to me just now... as I am about to demonstrate.


The Bob-omb costs me more coins to buy than the Green Shell, by one coin.


How does your question to me reveal any different information than my question (1) above? Based off of the answer to the questions so far, including mine, anyone could put the three answers together to come up with Green Shell < Bob-omb < Red Shell < Poison Shroom. If they came up with that list first (as in answering my question before yours asked of me) they could deduce the answer to your question anyway that the Bob-omb costs one more coin than the Green Shell based on its placement between the Green and Red Shells which were answered to have a difference of only two coins (not a whole lot of options for that Bob-omb cost, in fact there is only one option). So tell me again how my question is too revealing when the

same exact list

can be deduced from an answer to your question.

You have handled this plan beyond Piss Poorly. If you had actually stopped to think about your questions you could have gotten five or more item cost questions out of people instead of just four. But due to your lack of thinking things through, you didn't. You fucked that up by asking about cost comparisons in the wrong order.

@Tajo
Pick one of the four Bowser's Castle items. How much does it cost? This is the only question left that can be asked about costs at this point. None of the questions you have asked suggest that you actually know any of the answers to your questions and the fact that you dodged a question yourself makes YOU look scummy.

You say my question was too revealing and then immediately go on to ask me a question that revealed the exact same information.

This doesn't seem like it would have happened if you would have thought about the question you were asking and knew about the Bowser's Castle items.

Unvote; Vote: populartajo

That vote stays until you can prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that you are playing for Bowser's Castle. If you can do that I will remove my vote, but my confidence in you will not be restored due to how poorly you are handling this.

[semioldguy]

I also would like him to answer why he thought my questions gave too much information but then asked a question that gave the same amount of information.

[semioldguy]

Item cost questions in better order:

1. List items from least to most expensive.
2. Green Shell vs Bob-omb cost differences.
3. Green Shell/Bob-omb vs Red Shell cost differences.
4. Any other item vs Poison Shroom cost differences.
5. Absolute cost of any item.

The above list just utilizes a better order. There are still ways we could have gotten more questions by choosing different questions to be asked first.

What tajo did wrong is he saved the Bob-omb for last, which is the only item you can't save for last due to its value being an only number between two other items. As soon as tajo asked for a comparison between the most expensive and least expensive items I knew he had just forfeit an extra question that could have been asked.

The least to most expensive list is going to be deduced by the other questions anyway, but you can't deduce a cost difference between the items based on the list.


Another even better way to do it:

1. What are the two cheapest items.
2. what are the two most expensive items.
3. Which two items fit into the middle costs.
4. Green Shell vs Bob-omb cost differences.
5. Green Shell/Bob-omb vs Red Shell cost differences.
6. Any other item vs Poison Shroom cost differences.
7. Absolute cost of any item.

[semioldguy]

EBWOP: in the second set of seven questions, question number two would not be able to be asked, making it a set of six questions and not seven.

[semioldguy]

1. What are the two cheapest items.
2. Which two items fit into the middle costs.
3. Green Shell vs Bob-omb cost differences.
4. Green Shell/Bob-omb vs Red Shell cost differences.
5. Any other item vs Poison Shroom cost differences.
6. Number of items costing more (or less) than the 10-coin block.
7. Absolute cost of any item.

If I wanted to keep thinking about it I'm sure there are more that could be added, but this plan was carelessly gone into and we've wasted our opportunity to do that.

[semioldguy]

In number six above a pre-selected number of coins could be used instead of the cost for the 10 coin block.

(We can actually still use both six and seven)

[semioldguy]

Tajo... can you please answer my question:

What made you think that my questions revealed too much information but that your question to me did not when they revealed the same information?

[semioldguy]

Question for Tajo:

Which of the following can trigger the Bob-omb:
a. First person you give it to
b. Number of times given
c. Triggered by voting
d. Holding or not holding another item
e Passing it to certain player(s)
f. Time elapsed
g. Number of players passed to
h. Bob-omb cannot be triggered (only used)
i. None of the above

Here is why none of those possibilites give away too much info about how the Bob-omb works:
a. Scum can't do anything about it
b. Scum don't know the number of times to give
c. Scum don't know how/who voting effects it
d. Scum don't know which triggers
e. Scum don't know which player(s)
f. Scum don't know how much time
g. Scum don't know the number of players
h. Saying that an item can only be used doesn't help Scum
i. Scum don't know how it is triggered

If someone OTHER THAN TAJO has a problem with my question, please say so. Don't say what your problem with the question is, merely that you have a problem with it and once that is established we can work it out from there in a way that is as unrevealing as possible. This method will prevent revealing answers to this or potential other questions if we go about this carefully.

[semioldguy]

are you raising your hand because you have a problem with the question?

[semioldguy]

I don't know, but I didn't want to make an assumption.

Do you think the answer to my question would reveal too much or is it another problem you see with my question?

[semioldguy]

It's an either/or question zwet, not a yes/no question.

[semioldguy]

Do you think answering any of the options would reveal exactly how a trigger works? (other than the (a) choice) If so I can give multiple theoretical possibilities for each choice meaning that a yes answer to any choice would still leave the trigger not completely known.

Do you think the answer would be enough information for the scum to gain an advantage over the town in the item's use?

[semioldguy]

Tajo... can you please answer my question:

What made you think that my questions revealed too much information but that your question to me did not when they revealed the same information?

Do you understand the difference betwwen relative values and absolute values?

In numeric ways:

An answer of this type: a+b=30 means scum will never know exactly which is the value of "a" and "b". That is the case of questions like: of these two items which has the highest cost and by how.

An answer of this type a=20, means scum will know the value of "a" and ALL the values related to a, using only simple math. That is the case of questions like: give me the cost of the item bomb-omb.

God, whats wrong with you?

This is wrong. Math helps a lot here.

Let's start by giving each of the items a different unknown variable as their cost.

Green Shell = x
Bob-Omb = y
Red Shell = a
Poison Shroom = b

Your first question was asking the difference between the Green and red Shells. It was answered red cost more by two.

Green Shell = x
Bob-Omb = y
Red Shell = x +2
Poison Shroom = b

Next question was between the Green Shall and the Poison Shroom. Shroom was answered as costing more by four.

Green Shell = x
Bob-Omb = y
Red Shell = x +2
Poison Shroom = x + 4

Your next question asked between the green Shell and the Bob-omb.

Green Shell = x
Bob-Omb = x +1
Red Shell = x +2
Poison Shroom = x + 4

Now you can put a list together of increasing costs based on your three questions. Any question about added totals now can deduce the actual costs of the items. For example If I asked what the sum of the red and green shells were you could take that answer and set up the following equation. Let's assume that the sum of the two items is 100 for this example.

We get this: x + (x + 2) = 100
Which goes to: 2x + 2 = 100
Then 2x = 98
And finally x = 49

Once you establish every item's costs in relation to one another, you prevent yourself from asking a bunch of other questions about relative values and such.

_ _ _ _ _

You never said that my second question revealed too much information, you said

questions

, which is plural. If anything... the answer to your question of me revealed MORE than my question asking for a list. If the bob-omb was the most or least expensive item, then you could have still asked what it's total was in relation to another item, netting an extra question. That is why you have to leave the most or least expensive item for last in comparison, which you didn't do. For example if the cost-increasing list put the bob-omb at the highest or lowest cost, it could be ANY number higher or lower. The fact that it was in the middle meant that it's value in relation to the other items could be defined by it's placement alone, since none of the items were separated by more than two coins.

[semioldguy]

Which of the following can trigger the Bob-omb:
a. First person you give it to No
b. Number of times given No
c. Triggered by voting No
d. Holding or not holding another item No
e Passing it to certain player(s) No
f. Time elapsed No
g. Number of players passed to Yes
h. Bob-omb cannot be triggered (only used) No
i. None of the above

My vote is staying on you based off of these answers.

[semioldguy]

I know you did... and that's why my vote is staying on you.

[semioldguy]

So that you shut up and stop wasting time writijng shit about me, here is some nice information for you:

Items ordered :

Gren shell - even cost
Bob-omb - odd cost
Red shell - even cost
Posion Shroom -. even cost

So NOW can we stop giving mafia more information than they need?

No, that could have been deduced from WLC's post revealing that the item in question was an even numbered value and then the relationship values to the other items.

[semioldguy]

I did read my PM, and G is not the right answer to my question.

[semioldguy]

The poison shroom costs 10 coins.
NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP.

This also can be deduced by the answers given already.

[semioldguy]

Here is how you figure out it costs 10 coins from the answers given:

Green Shell = x
Bob-Omb = x + 1
Red Shell = x +2
Poison Shroom = x + 4

You know that only the Shroom costs more than 8 coins by zwet's answer.
You know that the shroom is even from WLC's answer.

That means the Shroom must cost at least 10 coins.

Green Shell = 6
Bob-Omb = 7
Red Shell = 8
Poison Shroom = 10

If you try to make it 12 this is what happens:

Green Shell = 8
Bob-Omb = 9
Red Shell = 10
Poison Shroom = 12

And now you no longer have only one item costing more than ten coins.

[semioldguy]

EBWOp last line should read "And now you no longer have only one item costing more than

eight

coins. "

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-ortolan (3): populartajo, Shadow Knight, AceMarksman
-populartajo (3): semioldguy, zwetschenwasser, qwints
-Shinnen_no_Me (2): Riceballtail, Surye
-Shadow Knight (2): Moratorium, ortolan
-Gorrad (1): Empking
-zwetschenwasser (1): Shinnen_no_Me

Not voting (5): killa seven, WeyounsLastClone, Cream147, Gorrad, caf19

With 17 alive it takes 9 real votes to lynch.

[semioldguy]

I did read my PM, and G is not the right answer to my question.

This is strange because in my PM, it explicetely says that the bomb triggers when a)this item is traded "x" times. and b)a reason I dont think scum should know.

That doesn't line up with G as the right answer, it lines up with B

[semioldguy]

Answer G was "number of players passed to".
How this is not related to the number of times this item is traded?

Gosh, do you think?

Players passed to and times traded are not same thing.

Lets say we have a group of 20 poeple.

If we each pass it to the person next on the list alphabetically and it goes off on the last person that would have been twenty passes and twenty people.

If you and me pass it back and forth only and it goes off on the tenth time I receive it then that would have only been two people but still twenty passes.

If you and me pass it back and forth twenty times and then pass it alphabetically again and it goes off on the twentieth person. That would have been twenty people but more than twenty passes.

[semioldguy]

I did read my PM, and G is not the right answer to my question.

This is strange because in my PM, it explicetely says that the bomb triggers when a)this item is traded "x" times. and b)a reason I dont think scum should know.

I think THIS prove that I REALLY have the item bob-omb.

Unvote

[semioldguy]

Surye hasn't checked in.

I'm am fairly confident that everyone else on the has items list are all playing for Bowser's castle.

[semioldguy]

We were both to blame for that, it was not just one of our faults. I don't think any of us should apologize though as we are all making our best efforts to catch scum. If we see something we should press the issue because it could catch scum. If the positions were reversed I would expect the same from you.

Mod: can we get a Prod on Surye?

He hasn't posted in six days.

[semioldguy]

Vote: Shadow Knight

I think we are chasing the wrong person with ortolan here. He never did claim to have no item descriptions as far as I can tell by going though his posts, yet was put into that category. The fact that Shadow Knight has jumped on him though seems suspicious to me. If one of the two of them is scum, I think Shadow Knight is the more likely candidate.

Off Topic: Gorrad, you're from San Diego too? (Surye is also for that matter before he replaced out). Not very sunny here today though

[semioldguy]

f. Time elapsed Yes

WTF?

ortolan is correct here. And it was a part of my answer to the question to have two correct choices. I never said otherwise and didn't bring it up because other things tajo mentioned suggested that he did have the items in his description.

I don't think ortolan needs to send anyone a letter with the number of times for giving the bob-omb.

[semioldguy]

In the last MKM, Yoshi was the pro-town role that couldn't buy items. Yoshi also couldn't receive or use any items in that game as specifically stated in the PM. I think SK's PM would have specifically stated whether or not he could receive items based off of wording from the previous game.

Also I don't see why a role which can't buy items would need to be having coins. Goombas don't have hands/arms as far as I've ever known, so whether he is in a bubble or not I don't see how he is holding on to that coin from a flavor standpoint.

[semioldguy]

TOLD YOU

NOT

TO ADDRESS THIS QUESTION UNLESS YOU ARE

SK. YOU JUST JUMPED UP

SEVERELY

ON MY SCUM METER. You do realize that my question COULD HAVE CONFIRMED SK AS SCUM, but you RUINED IT. *fume* way to go, ZEEnon.

How is this:

Also I don't see why a role which can't buy items would need to be having coins. Goombas don't have hands/arms as far as I've ever known, so whether he is in a bubble or not I don't see how he is holding on to that coin from a flavor standpoint.

An answer to this:

My role stresses that I become a normal goomba once my bubble is broken. I assume that means I gain the ability to buy items.

What is the reason your role gives specifically for not being able to buy items?

???

That seriously makes no sense why you would think that... where in my post am I saying "the reason [his] role gives specifically for not being able to buy items"? I don't see where I am answering the reason his role gives for not being able to buy items... can you please point it out to me?

[semioldguy]

I plan to keep quiet about when I'm targetted the first time and what I gain (if anything) from it.

Bad idea in my opinion. Scum will know that they hit you, so you keeping quiet about it only hides information from the town. You don't have to say anything more but saying that you were hit and lived last night doesn't seem like something you would have to keep quiet about. Who are you intending to keep that information quiet from exactly? Because scum would already know that they targeted you.

I doubt there is a similar role to mine as I'll be more than a little pissed that they didn't come forward and back me up sooner.

Sounds like role-fishing to me.

When I said scum had elaborate claims I meant that usually scum dont claim a simple role like goomba in a bubble.

Not all of the fake claims from last game were elaborate. For reference last game they were: Dr. Mario, Shy Guy, Paper Mario, Rosalina, Baby Luigi and Bob-omb.

A reason I thought why this claim could be legit is cuz I tought that the vanilla version of this game were Goombas. For reference, in the other game, scum had fakeclaims like Dr. Mario and at the beginning they didnt know that the Toads were the vanillas of the game.

They did know that "Toad" was the vanilla of last game. From one of the Bowser PM's last game: "But because you are all disguised as a Toad, it might be better to pretend that you’re a Toad."

However, if Goombas arent the vanillas of the game, then who are the vanillas of this game?

No one should answer this.

[semioldguy]

Players without item descriptions can't use items either.

...I confirm Ace's statement about not being able to use items (and our PMs saying as such)....

We can't use items.

This coming from the only other three people who claim not to have item descriptions.

[semioldguy]

The red shell costs 2 more coins than the green shell.

qwints, Yoshi (Mushroom Kingdom), killed Night 1.

Problem.

I am going to comb through the thread really closely and make sure there was no way for him to somehow deduce this.

[semioldguy]

I went backwards from qwints' answer to see which posts may have possibly helped him answer correctly, if any.

The red shell costs 2 more coins than the green shell.

Prices...may not be the best thing with which to test. After all, both teams have four items each. Pricing may well be the same.

This was all I found with a quick glance, and I highly doubt this would be true because based on rules post if this were true than a fire flower would cost more than a star. If they do the same or similar things as they did in MKM1, then this wouldn't really make sense.

[semioldguy]

I have an idea about the jump in mechanic that I thought of after looking at the death list Moratorium posted from the first game.

Last time both sides had a resurrection type ability. The mushroom kingdom had Gimbo's 1-up Mushroom and Bowser's Army had Dry Bones.

The 1-up Mushroom mod-confirmed Populartajo as a townie last time and put the scum at a huge disadvantage, especially since the town coordination made it so that they couldn't even kill Tajo as they were going through with their plan then. Dry Bones on the other hand came back to life three days after having been lynched. This likely could have resulted in an insta-lynch were it to happen.

The Jump-in mechanic could be a fix to the resurrection mechanic, or something to help along with the resurrection mechanic as using it solely for that purpose wouldn't do a whole lot to completely fix the problem.

Visible Votecount

-sirdanilot (1): Gorrad
-Looker (1): populartajo
-Gorrad (1): AceMarksman
-populartajo (1): zwetschenwasser

Not voting (12): killa seven, Kast, ZEEnon, Riceballtail, Looker, sirdanilot, Moratorium, ortolan, semioldguy, WeyounsLastClone, Empking, caf19

With 16 alive it takes 9 real votes to lynch.

[semioldguy]

Semioldguy, what makes you think that the order is the same? I can't tell from the names which would go with which, considering I know the abilities of neither, but they could have the same effects with a changed order. Either way, the night kill proves that the item idea was bogus.

The order the items are listed in the rules post were the same order as listed in our PM's for Bowser's Army.

[semioldguy]

So? What if this were the case:
Mushroom Kingdom possible PM:
mushroom = x, 1-up shroom = y, fireflower = z, star = a

Bowser’s Castle possible PM:
green shell = y, red shell = z, poison shroom = x, bob-omb = a

All letters were assigned arbitrarily. Even if the items were in the same order, there's nothing to say the powers assigned to the items were.

So even if that was the case, how do they figure out which value goes to which for the other faction other than a random guess?

[semioldguy]

I don't really think it matters so much how they know. The fact is they do know and it compromises our list.

[semioldguy]

Then what was the point of your question to me in that post?

[semioldguy]

@ Gorrad

Just because something is justified to you, doesn't mean it is justified to anyone else. I'm not just going to take your word on it because you say so. Now it could very well be that saying so before sirdanilot answers would affect his response or undermine what you are getting at by asking him. But as soon as he says something on the subject I expect to hear your full reasoning to this justification you're claiming.

[semioldguy]

don't have long to post today, I'm just going to pop in and say kast's suggestion that there was no night 0 and therefore no conversation between scum is rubbing me the wrong way. There is normally pre-game chatter between scum, regardless of whether or not there is a Night 0.

The quicktopic for the first Mushroom Kingdom Mafia allowed for discussion during the confirmation stage.

Mod edit
Visible Votecount

-populartajo (3): zwetschenwasser, ortolan, Empking
-sirdanilot (1): Gorrad
-ortolan (1): populartajo

Not voting (11): killa seven, Kast, ZEEnon, Riceballtail, Looker, sirdanilot, Moratorium, semioldguy, WeyounsLastClone, caf19, AceMarksman

With 16 alive it takes 9 real votes to lynch.

[semioldguy]

-Do you have any other suggestions to explain Yoshi knowing the BA items but Toad not knowing them?

I have a suggestion to potentially explain this, but as the question is directed at someone else I'll hold on to my suggestion until Ace responds.

[semioldguy]

-Do you have any other suggestions to explain Yoshi knowing the BA items but Toad not knowing them?

Kast: I have no idea :/. It's really perplexing.

Since Ace has no idea I'll chip in my thought on it. My thought was that it might not be that Toad didn't know anything about the items, that in actuality he did know, but that all the scum wouldn't all want to jump onto the same list.

[semioldguy]

-Do you have any other suggestions to explain Yoshi knowing the BA items but Toad not knowing them?

Kast: I have no idea :/. It's really perplexing.

Since Ace has no idea I'll chip in my thought on it. My thought was that it might not be that Toad didn't know anything about the items, that in actuality he did know, but that all the scum wouldn't all want to jump onto the same list.

The thing about this is that how would the scum have forseen tajo's plan with enough accuracy to say "don't all of us claim that we know what the BA items do." Is there an explanation you can see for this? I can think of one, but I'm holding off for now.

Even if they didn't foresee Tajo's plan, if they see their scum buddies doing one thing, they might think to themselves to do something different to keep themselves from being linked together if one of them is found out. It just requires enough common sense that scum shouldn't all be doing the exact same thing as each other.

[semioldguy]

I'm a buzzy beetle! I have a shell that I think protects me from nightkills (from fire, to be specific). Now let's lynch poptajo for his unjustified OMGUS on me.

I don't believe this claim because (1) why would you only

think

that you are protected from fire? and (2) I don't think a buzzy beetle has any arms with which to use items, which you have claimed to be able to use.

[semioldguy]

Saying that Koopa Troopas can use items and Buzzy Beetles can't has nothing to do with my role, but rather my knowledge of the Mario games and the Mario universe.

Googling both Koopa Troopa and Buzzy Beetle, here are two image results from the first images page:



Almost all of the Koopa Troopa pictures depict hands, or him holding a golf club or driving a Mario Kart or doing something that requires the use of hands. Buzzy Beetle has four legs and is always walking on all fours. Koopas Troopas walk on two legs in the Mario games, giving them two free hands. There is a relative of the Buzzy Beetle that can use its hands in the Mario Universe, though its name isn't Buzzy Beetle, it goes by a different name: Buster Beetle.

Also AceMarksman made the argument that his PM specifically outlines which immunities he does and does not have. Zwetschenwasser saying he only thinks he is immune contradicts AceMarksman's post in suggesting that his PM doesn't specify whether or not he has a immunity or which ones he does have.

[semioldguy]

I suppose with a 1-up shroom they can bring a MK killed person back to life. A star would imply some kind of invulnerability alltogether. Seems enough for scum to me without also having the power to bring even more people in.

If you think the 1-up mushroom can bring dead scum back to life is there a reason that now alive scum wouldn't just "jump in?" If the same player came back I think it would make that person a near auto lynch if they died as scum.

[semioldguy]

Gorrad's last post certainly is funny. At least he's doing the thinking for me. you're voicing you're suspicion of me, but why exactly? It certainly isn't because I'm voting you, right?

Yes I'm suspicious of you for voting me, but it's not "You're voting me OMG I hate you you're scum" it's because of the circumstances.

I can't possibly prove that I'd suspect you even if it wasn't me for whom you were voting, but that is the case.

What?

[semioldguy]

That makes a little more sense explained that way.

[semioldguy]

Gone fishing my ass. There arent PRs in this game.

Now, zwet is town or he is likely town?

If you seriously think that there are no power roles in this game then there is definitely a problem. If we go under the assumption that there aren't power roles we have two immediately glaring problems:

(1) Gorrad's claim. It's a power role so if you don't think there are power roles than to you he must be scum.

(2) Zwet's claim. Also a power role (though weaker). So if you don't think there are power roles, then Zwet's claim must be fake too. Either that or you think that everyone in Bowser's Army is a Buzzy Beetle and therefore immune to fire, making any fire attack in this game pointless to have even been included.

Your post qualified as role fishing. Denying that it any way is just wrong.

[semioldguy]

Yes, I did click on and read it.

[semioldguy]

I think Zwet's claim is fake for the reasons I previously stated.

[semioldguy]

I have 0 voting power today. I did not get an explanation as to why (though I have a guess, if Yoshi has the same abilities as last game, than I might have been his target last night). I don't know whether or not my voting returns to normal again tomorrow, but I'd hope so.

[semioldguy]

if Yoshi has the same abilities as last game, than I might have been his target last night

Riceballtail's role wrote:
You are Yoshi (Mushroom Kingdom), Mario’s faithful steed. During the day you can double the vote count of

Mario

or

Luigi

, by voting for the same person as they do. This will be done in the real votecount, not the visible votecount. Unfortunately, during the day you are nothing without the help of

Mario

or

Luigi

, so your own vote always counts for 0 in the real votecount.
You have one powerful night action: Swallow. When you use this action on an ally, it will protect him from one fireflower, and when you use this action on an enemy, his votes will count for 0 the next day (of which they will get notified). I will not tell you which of the two happened.
Besides this, you don’t start with any coins, you won’t get new coins and you can’t buy or use items. All items and coins given to you are lost.
You win when everyone who is not on the town’s side is dead.

Are you Mushroom Kingdom?

No.

[semioldguy]

Why do you only

think

you have fire immunity rather than knowing one way or the other?

[semioldguy]

Another good question is that if everyone that has items descriptions in their PMs indeed do have hands.

We already know that not everyone with hands can buy items, if Gorrad's claim is true. But I don't think knowing who does or doesn't have hands is really going to help.

I'm leaning more toward believing Zwet's claim. My previous reasons for disbelieving it have since been pointed out not to be correct. As Kast says, there are games where Buzzy Beetles can have items. The Paper Mario games aren't ones I am familiar with. The Buster Beetles in SMB3 were the only ones I knew of that can use/have items and those ones aren't immune to fire either.

[semioldguy]

Asking people to prove/explain how they are town is a wasted exercise. Actually though, this raises an interesting point (which seems like a natural follow up to Tajo's plan from yesterday, and I'm surprised nobody raised this).

If we assume that MK cannot buy/acquire BA items, then players who bought BA items last night and did not use them could potentially confirm themselves by trading them now to prove that they did indeed purchase such an item

. This ONLY works if we assume that ONLY BA can buy BA items (and if players who can buy BA items actually *did* buy BA items).

In application, I think there are too many risks to do this as a mass/universal action. However, we could use it as an additional check against mislynching. If Zwet has a BA item, he could trade it to a players who suspects him and use that to prove ability to acquire BA items.

I don't like this for a few reasons.
(1) If any BA players are holding onto items, I don't think it would be wise to alert the Mushroom Kingdom as to where those items are because they may have ways to steal or cancel items as well as just killing the person who has the item. I don't know what happens to items being held by someone who dies, but my guess would be that they disappear and are wasted.
(2) Passing the BA item to someone else could just be giving our item into the hands of Mushroom Kingdom. There are multiple bad things that could come from this and if scum did get one of our items then we could never use items as confirmation again knowing that one of our items is unaccounted for.
(3) I also don't want to risk trading an item as a claim method as we don't know if there are any item stealing roles or not. Last game had both coin and item stealing, but the town was fortunate enough to eliminate those roles early and didn't suffer the consequences from the coin pooling plan.
(4) The fact that the trading is not announced publicly as it was last game leaves the door open for several things to go wrong.

[semioldguy]

Sirdan, I also dont think caf is scum. His reasoning is very similar to mine.

Why is having reasoning similar to your own a reason for not being scum?

[semioldguy]

Here are the players that aren't currently voting ThAdmiral.

WeyounsLastClone

-- Voting for someone else (please switch)

killa seven

-- typical non-participatory gameplay

ZEEnon

-- Not participating (and complains when he gets voted because he says he's V/LA?)

ThAdmiral

-- Self-Voting is in style these days, I swear!

semioldguy

-- hmmm...

millar13

-- Hell, you've given up the cow already, help us out and vote your buddy off.

The one that I'm honestly very surprised hasn't helped out with this wagon is semioldguy, who appears to have ignored this topic entirely and stayed non-voting. I had a townish read on him, but now I'm confused by his sidelining.

I have 0 voting power today. I did not get an explanation as to why (though I have a guess, if Yoshi has the same abilities as last game, than I might have been his target last night). I don't know whether or not my voting returns to normal again tomorrow, but I'd hope so.

[semioldguy]

I didn't just now claim it... I claimed it a week ago back in Post 1222 as quoted and noted above responding to Moratorium.

[semioldguy]

"Bah! Go Bowser's Army!"

[semioldguy]

AceMarksman was the most obvious Bowser's Army player remaining. Ortolan... being another Parakoopa, should have known that because you two had the same immunities which would have been very difficult to fake

[semioldguy]

Ouch... Night two really hurt from a penalty I didn't even know we had. I was wondering how I'd died considering I had several immunities.

[semioldguy]

Even just knowing about the penalties taking effect would have made a difference, as there were several things I would have shared had I known I didn't have immunities from what I perceived to be a majority of the scum-kill methods.

It was said that a punishment would be inflicted upon millar13's faction, but it didn't say what the punishment was nor did we know which faction he was or wasn't a part of.