The Werewolves of Millers Hollow (Game Over)

[The Replacement]

Hello. I can't start reading immediately, but plan to get through all the reading within a couple days.

[The Replacement]

Still catching up as well.

[The Replacement]

Quick thoughts on each of the previous days so far

Day One:
Thinking that a scummy mayor should be elected is baffling, and when almost every other player spoke against and ALL brought up points against it. I don’t know why Firestarter had to go on for so long about it. I agree millar13/Xtoxm was a necessary lynch, but it really prevented a lot of scum hunting. I was not disappointed too much with the mayor choice, though I thought it would have been better to get someone who would have been easier to read in that position, Yosarin2 does not fit that as well as some of the other protown-looking players would have.

Day Two:
This has to be one of the worst days ever. There are people cross defending each other left and right and misrepresentations all over the place. Let someone defend themselves or answer their own questions/accusations rather than any random person jumping in front of them to answer first. Even if you think it’s a bad accusation, a lot can be learned by seeing how someone responds. Prematurely defending them deprives the town of getting these reads on players. If everyone is insistent upon partaking in anti-town behavior it makes it a hell of a lot easier for scum to blend in. Anti-town behavior isn’t a scum tell unless you can explain why scum would be more likely to be doing that. The sad thing is, that even if I was in this game I would have been able to stop none of that crap since my character was out in the fields smelling the flowers.

(dingoatemybaby was entirely on the correct side of that argument, which seems pretty damn obvious if you actually read the thread. Dr Pepper made the worst possible choice, both in the self hammer and in his choice of who to kill.)

Day Three:
I don’t think Mufasa was the correct lynch. I fail to see how his claim would be more likely made as scum than it would be as. The only special ability I want to see going off when we lynch someone is the special ability of the town having one less werewolf to worry about. People who unvoted Mufasa on day two just to vote him on day three are very suspicious for doing so, especially since this allows them to effectively ignore half of the players for two consecutive days. MikeSC’s reason for unvoting is equally ridiculous in my opinion. His claim elaboration on day three creams fake, but I fail to see how he would do that as scum more likely than town. Admittedly it was dismal play by Mufasa as well.

[The Replacement]

There was at least one werewolf on the day two lynch Jahudo, you missed Percy.

It's been a very disheartening read in catching up. Every time I come across a player that I find seeming scummy, I look at the death list and notice that they weren't one of the lynches. People haven't been scum hunting, they've been hunting poor play with little to back up the accusation of scumminess.

The same thing is happening again today. You are all taking something that is poor play in general and making it into a scum tell because it is convenient to do so.

Yosarian2, as a veteran player, who I do not take as a poor player, you should know better than to let all that bad play happen on day two, and you even jumped in with them on the poor playing. You've said you would be using your vote as mayor also, I have hardly seen any evidence of you doing any scumhunting on your own.

Day three was horrible town play by prettymuch all involved as well. There was almost no discussion, despite the fact eight players from the previous day had been removed from the game teporarily and ignored. This didn't seem to bother anyone that they could just slip through day three and are now slipping through day four as well.

Furthermore, there were a group of replacements needed, and the quick day three basically meant that you couldn't have heard from any of us until the following day. This is horrible play for several reasons. First you aren't scumhunting amongst all the players in the game, only some of them. Second, you leave less days to get reads on the lurkers/replacements which is increasingly important as the game continues on, as you can't put off being able to get reads on people as you approch more dire situations.

[The Replacement]

Another thing that is unsettling, is the fact you all seem to be completely ignoring today's special ability. This is something the town MUST discuss and take control of. Since our second vote is secret, if we just go into a lynch without anyone saying who they plan on voting for as second lynch, then the werewolves can just feel free to all vote whoever, as we know they won't vote for each other since they won't have to be held accountable for the vote if no one sees them voting.

We need to line up our second lynch as town so that if that second lynch doesn't happen, then we know that we have liars on one of the wagons and can effectively narrow down a list of suspects in which we know will have werewolves. We need to know who the majority for second lynch will be going into the night so that if that doesn't happen, then we can look into why, and so keep people accountable for the voting that they do.

Vote: MikeSC6

If dramonic is lynched I will vote for MikeSC6 as my second lynch vote. If anyone's second lynch is going to be based upon the first one's flip, you should specify who you would vote in both scenarios.

[The Replacement]

I am tired. It's almost 4:30am and I have work in less than four hours. I'll post some more in depth thoughts on certain players tomorrow if I have time.

[The Replacement]

no. no. no. We do NOT discuss the second lynch today, because if we do, we give scum the chance to co-ordinate and overturn our decision. Unless you think we can get a nearly unanimous verdict, we are best off just going with our instincts, and assuming that scum will be clueless anyway, and probably cancel each other out. I advise keeping an eye out for anyone trying to communicate like this.

Your gamebreaking idea looks nice, but won't work in practice.

also, who are you replacing? lol

BM

It isn't a gamebreaking idea, and I never said it was. But without discussion it is not a pro-town event. How do you expect the scum to cancel each other out if they only vote for town players? Basically you have two groups, one group who will vote for anyone and one group who will vote only town players. The results of those two groups get combined and it seems that if there is no town attempt at knowing whats going on then we are just going to lose someone who is town.

I am replacing Shinen_no_me

Either way, the replacement's idea of trying to trap scum seems very unlikely to work.

It isn't an idea to trap scum (though it potentially can if the scum are dumb enough). It's a plan to take the day's event out of the inherent advantage of scum and let the town know what's happening. I don't see how the town having more information in this case would be a bad thing. What does the town lose by everyone making their second lynch choice public?

[The Replacement]

The Replacement just wrote about 5,000 words, and as far as I can tell provided little to no reads on anyone. Looks like he was posting "analysis" just to post, and didn't want to actually discuss anyone. Then he comes up with a mike vote out of nowhere.

Also, how do you write that much (and cast a vote no less) without discussing the prevailing wagon at the time? I have no strong lean on dramonic one way or the other, but I find the way his wagon took off suspicious, especially since it was based solely on his rolefishing. I agree that rolefishing is anti-town, but no way should it cause someone to be insta-lynched.

You are either selectively reading or ignoring my post that specifically explains this.

I am tired. It's almost 4:30am and I have work in less than four hours. I'll post some more in depth thoughts on certain players tomorrow if I have time.

Am still dead tired as I got almost no sleep. I'm at work and it is likely I will have time to post more in depth thoughts at some point today as my schedule doesn't look so bad.

[The Replacement]

Jahudo, I am not ignoring you, I will get to your post later, the questions you ask are mostly things I will specifically be discussing as I say I will in post 1166.

[The Replacement]

How does the town benefit from a secret ballot in which no one can be held accountable for their own vote?

If ignored, I predict that this event is not going to end well for the town.

[The Replacement]

dingoatemybaby was entirely on the correct side of that argument, which seems pretty damn obvious if you actually read the thread

Um...no. Not at all. Not even a little bit. Dr. Pepper was obviously town there, anyone reading the thread should have been able to tell that, and Dingo focused on him for terrible reasons.

Dingo was more obviously town. Dr Pepper invented his own reasons for focusing on Dingoatemybaby, Dingoatemybaby's reasons initially weren't even relating to Dr Pepper until Dr Pepper misconstrued his position numerous times. Misrepresentation and defending other players unprovoked are not terrible reasons for focusing on someone.

If you don't think Dr Pepper was misrepresenting Dingoatemybaby, then I will extend Dingoatemybaby's challenge to Dr Pepper to you. Go and find where Dingoatemybaby says what Dr Pepper claims of his stance.

They were both at each others' throats for the wrong reasons, but Dr Pepper was the first one in the wrong by stepping in when should have waited for Percy to respond first.

I don’t think Mufasa was the correct lynch. I fail to see how his claim would be more likely made as scum than it would be as town.

Because he was obviously lying? IF you catch someone lying about their claim, if they keep talking themselves farther and farther into a corner trying to lie themselves out of a hole they dug for themselves, then 99% of the time, the right play is to lynch them.

Town is perfectly capable of lying. Your response doesn't actually address the point I made of why scum would be more likely to make HIS claim than town. People dig themselves into lies because they believe coming out of the lie will be worse than trying to stay in it. And don't respond with "Oh I told him it would be better if he came out and told the truth" because you said nothing to actually make him believe that it would be a better idea. Pointing to Xtoxm's lynch isn't very convincing. You simply saying that something is better if done a certain way does not make it true.

By your logic, asking someone to come out of a lie would just further give you reason to lynch them based upon catching them in a lie.

People who unvoted Mufasa on day two just to vote him on day three are very suspicious for doing so, especially since this allows them to effectively ignore half of the players for two consecutive days.

Did you miss the part where Mufasa said on day 2 "the town should lynch me tommorow"? You'd better not say something like that without having a damn good explination the next day, and he did not.

The town should never be aiming to lynch a town player. That's not only dumb, but not playing to our win condition. I don't care if you are a Hunter or have some if-lynched triggered ability. The town doesn't need to lynch those kinds of players to win. In fact, lynching those players doesn't actually give us an advantage, it merely softens the blow. We would be better off lynching scum. We win by eliminating the werewolves, not seeing the cool effects that town players have when they get lynched.

If you don't like partial claims then where was that insistence to get a full claim from him on day two instead of leaving it hanging?

Once again you fail to actually address the point I make, which is that of it allowing you to essentially ignore half of the players in the game for two days straight.

Yosarian2, as a veteran player, who I do not take as a poor player, you should know better than to let all that bad play happen on day two, and you even jumped in with them on the poor playing. You've said you would be using your vote as mayor also, I have hardly seen any evidence of you doing any scumhunting on your own.

Excuse me? "Let" the bad play happen? I was doing everything I could to try to prevent Dr. Pepper from being lynched, since there was absolutly no good reason to lynch him. I tried to *prevent* the bad play from happening, and it's frustrating that peple were unwilling to listen, and instead followed people like Zwet who wanted to lynch Dr. Pepper while giving either no reasons or at best no good reasons.

Then what you should have done was to tell him to back the hell off and wait for Percy to actually come and respond to the points brought up against him first. What Dr Pepper did was deprive the town of Percy's response, you further contributed to that by jumping into the argument yourself.

If Dr Pepper truly thought that was Dingoatemybaby's stance then he should have waited first to see how Percy would handle it. You did very little to prevent the situation, if anything, you augmented it.

[The Replacement]

Barrylocke – He active lurked the entirety of the first two days before replacing out. He had no unique contribution to the game, always following along with the opinion of someone else and had either no suspicions, or only suspicions following someone else's. NabakovNabakov has been playing better though in my opinion.

DizzyIzzyB13 – Day one she claimed that she would be holding on to her mayor vote. This was brought up in the game already and is a good way for scum to sit back and see what unfolds before making their own decision or wait for something to unfold that they approve of. Despite her frequency of posting, she really contributed no content day one at all (which is really true of almost every player, sadly)

MikeSC6 – He is wishy-washy on pretty much everything, always leaving himself a way to back up his steps if he needs to. Asks questions but almost never does anything with the answers. Not ONCE at the end of any day has he had a vote placed at the time of lynch. He has had his votes on the eventual lynch of the day, but has always unvoted in those cases prior to that player being lynched and flipping town.

I'll have more to add later, I need to get back to work.

[The Replacement]

dingoatemybaby was entirely on the correct side of that argument, which seems pretty damn obvious if you actually read the thread

Um...no. Not at all. Not even a little bit. Dr. Pepper was obviously town there, anyone reading the thread should have been able to tell that, and Dingo focused on him for terrible reasons.

Also, just because someone is obviously town, does not make the person arguing against him in the wrong.

[The Replacement]

It seems to have become a trend in some of my more recent games for the town to jump on anti-town behavior coming from players who appear obvious to me as innocents who just play poorly. People are too quick to lynch for the reason "what that player is doing is anti-town" and they don't even consider whether or not the play is scummy (they just call it scummy and no one questions it). Anti-town does not always equate to scummy, and calling an anti-town action scummy without backing up with reasons why it is scummy rather than just poor town play is hurtful to the town.

Yes, the anti-town players are confusing and misleading regardless of their alignment. But these players still have scum tells of their own that can be determined and other players ignore trying to find these tells and take the easy way out of just lynching any anti-town player as opposed to actually trying to figure out who the werewolves are.

[The Replacement]

Also, I don't understand the double standard here. Percy wanted to pressure someone. Dingo attaked Percy for that, before the guy who Percy wanted to pressure responded. Dr Pepper attacked Dingo for that. Why do you have a problem with Pepper's play and not Dingo's?

Wrong. There is no double standard here. That is NOT what Dingo attacked Percy for. Dingo attacked Percy for having an unreasonable condition by which Percy's vote might ever be removed and had nothing to do with it being specifically on Zoneace or Percy's reason for putting his vote onto Zeonace. In fact Dingo specifically said that he didn't have a problem with the reason for the vote or with who the vote was placed on. Where does Dingo specifically defend Zoneace? Dr Pepper explicitly defends Percy. Hence there is no double standard in what I have a problem with.

Why should I have tried to prevent Dr Pepper from trying to hunt scum?

Because what Dr Pepper was doing was actively interfereing and distracting with other players' hunting of scum.

If I directed a question or a case at someone, and somebody else stepped in to defend the points directed at a player other than himself, when is this ever a protown thing to do?

[The Replacement]

Once again Yosarian, you ignore the points I make by drawing your own separate points that I am not in disagreement with you about.

Here is the initial point Dr Pepper brought up against Dingo:

dingo, I find that accusation of Percy not contributing to be unfounded. He is clearly performing player analysis, calling out lurkers, and keeping the game moving. He doesnt need to commit to a lynch so early. Maybe he doesnt want the popular lynch to occur. Maybe ZONEACE will be the lynch for the day.

This is defense of Percy. Period. He isn’t questioning Dingo’s motives or reasoning, he is providing his own interpretation of Percy. He is defending Percy’s actions. Dingo did not do this of Zoneace.

Dr Pepper’s accusation was also incorrect, because Dingo wasn’t accusing Percy of not contributing.

[The Replacement]

Haven't been prodded, but I likely would have been before long. I've been away for a few days and I'll have a more substantial post sometime later today.

[The Replacement]

MikeSC6, who is your top suspect at the moment and why are you not voting?

dramonic, same question.

With both of you as the leading lynch candidates today I think it would be helpful to the town if you did some scum hunting or let us know where you suspicions are.

zwet, if they were both at L-1 and you still weren't voting which player would you hammer? Or would you not hammer either?

[The Replacement]

Prod received, will catch up and make a post later today.

[The Replacement]

Okay, not much has happened since. I don't really see the case on BattleMage. Would like dramonic and others who need to read and catch up to give their thoughts. I still like my vote on MikeSC

[The Replacement]

I still like my case on MikeSC. Other players are sticking to their same very old cases, despite plenty of new things directly related to their case happening since then and their neglect to comment on it and also their ignoring of new things in the game that have happened since their cases that the town could benefit from their comments on.

I think Mike's vote on Dramonic was pretty horrible, like he was looking for a reason to vote rather than paying attention to a larger span of game content.

[The Replacement]

Surprised I am still in this game with such a long absence from the site. I'll stick around to keep from having to look for more replacements. Will catch up in the meantime before too long.

[The Replacement]

You can like your case on Mike, but maybe others don't and they aren't required to. You seem to think that it should be your way or no way.

Players don't have to agree with my case on Mike, even if I think they should, but I don't think they should ignore more current events which is what it looks like is happening to me (or you who have pretty much not commented on practically the entire game thus far). If you have an old case that you like you should be able to explain why it is still relevant and preferable to more recent happenings, keeping the town up to date with your current thoughts and why you agree/disagree with what others are saying.

FoS: Starbuck

[The Replacement]

I also don't think we should be trying to out lovers.

[The Replacement]

Why is the case on Mike (mine and Jahundo's) null to you?