Big Brother Mafia - Town wins!

[Crazy]

/confirm

[Crazy]

I've only seen #11, the first 2 weeks of #9, and the first week of #10.

Nominate: SensFan

He's good with the Day 1 game, IIRC.

[Crazy]

I can appreciate voting for someone you have witnessed playing well in other games. However, this game is different than basic games and I think it is very important to get a floater in as HoH. SensFan being good in another game, in no way solidifies him as a floater townie in this game. Animo and Crazy, do you agree that more discussion is needed before letting this current SensFan wagon gain more momentum and possibly putting scum in power based on meta from other games?

I was actually thinking along the lines of "with no other information, this is who I would pick."

And yes, you're right; it is best to put a townie as the first HoH. But I'm not sure it's as important as you say, mainly because:

a. Scum will still try to scumhunt for the other faction, at least at the beginning.
b. The HoH will still have to listen to the majority of the town to a reasonable extent.

[Crazy]

1) Do you think it matters a good/experienced player gets elected as HoH?

Not especially, though an experienced person could likely stimulate discussion better. It would be most ideal if the person was town.

2) Do you think HoH should be guided by town? (as in, we still vote, and HoH picks the highest 2 in the VC)

I don't think the HoH should be entirely guided by town, but they should have a good reason if they don't.

3) If you are very suspicious of someone, would you pick him together with a seemingly town person if you were HoH to be sure your suspect gets lynched?

Only if I was very suspicious of a particular person.

4) If i were HoH, i would pick ___ and ___

I don't know yet.

I'm going to take this and assume that mufasa and whoot were on seperate factions, otherwise this wouldn't have been an issue.

(??) He's talking about them accidentally posting on each other's accounts; I can't imagine how that is indicative that they can't be scum together.

[Crazy]

I'll post a little later.

[Crazy]

Okay, I read up.

I like Kmd as HoH. Sly seems to be trying a little hard at certain points, and Sensfan hasn't posted in a while.

Nominate: Kmd4390

Saberwolf to me seems like a somewhat emotional townie. Nominating him seems like an easy way out for scum. And I don't blame him for not wanting to be HoH; I don't think I'd want to be a Day 1 HoH either.

If I was HoH, I'd nominate Snowbunny for sure. Her posts sound like she's just trying to please everyone and not ruffle anything. Her criticisms against saber happen to say nothing about his alignment.

Not sure about my other nominee at this point; probably a lurker (Yes, I know I haven't posted much, either).

[Crazy]

Sly seems to be trying a little hard at certain points

Is this bad? >.<

I mean stuff like picking apart the meaning of "semi-random" and the meaning of "faction." I could be wrong, but to me stuff like that seems unnatural, and yes, that is bad.

[Crazy]

@Sly - You seem to be trying to make Llama slip up and contradict himself, with no real case other than that.

Let me ask you: Why would Llama supporting Kmd over you be scummy? You said it yourself - both you and Kmd have saber as your primary suspect; if Llama was scum, why would it matter to him who becomes HoH if saber is dead either way?

Personally, I am also favoring Kmd as HoH because I like his secondary choices (Snowbunny, in particular). I realize that saber is still probably dead anyway, but there's not a whole lot I can do about that.

@Mr Finch - That was a really weird post. What do you have against voting for someone?

[Crazy]

@Sly - You seem to be trying to make Llama slip up and contradict himself, with no real case other than that.

Let me ask you: Why would Llama supporting Kmd over you be scummy?

His support for kmd in itself is not scummy. I have just been trying to get a straight answer out of him about the reasoning of his vote.

Would it be scummy if he had bad reasoning? I'm assuming you'd say "yes," but I don't see why it would be.

@Crazy: What's in me that you would nominate me to evict?

Your previous posts look like you were just trying to look active without really saying much. Who are you suspicious of?

[Crazy]

Would it be scummy if he had bad reasoning? I'm assuming you'd say "yes," but I don't see why it would be.

Not entirely, unless kmd is proven to be scum. If that happens, Llama's strong support of kmd will look very suspicious whether his reasoning was good or bad. I have been trying to eliminate people from my consideration for HoH today and that is where the entire discussion with Llama originated for me.

Well, that's interesting, because there's a hole in your logic.

You say it's weird that Llama supports Kmd over you since you both have the same primary suspect. That is to say, saberwolf would get nominated regardless if you or Kmd were HoH, right?

If we go to Llama's perspective, assuming he's scum with Kmd, he can do one of the following:

a. Try to get Kmd (his scumpartner) nominated, so saber is evicted.
b. Try to get Sly nominated, so saber is evicted.

Why would Llama-scum care at all who gets HoH if the person getting evicted is the same?

[Crazy]

I've been a little lazy, but I see Sly got HoH; I'll post tomorrow.

[Crazy]

One interesting thing about this game is that from any townie's perspective, 6/13 of the other players are scum. That gives a really big margin of error, I say, which should make it easier to scum-hunt.

First, SlySly is HoH; I find him somewhat scummy, but nominating him would be useless today. As well, saberwolf seems to have PoV, but he's not one of my suspects, anyway.

Now despite both Snowbunny and zwet being really scummy, I think these quotes show genuine ignorance of the setup, and thus are a town-tell (not solid, though):

I vote for saber and siroginous. The first is rather obvious, while sir is voted due to his number talk, which I find to be a distraction

(also, the certainty he uses when putting down scum in numbers is rather odd).

Scum will obviously pick two town if they're a HoH early in the game.

My first vote will be

Vote: Mr Finch

. Reasons are his OMGUS against Llama for pressuring him into changing his vote, and I don't like this attitude towards saber, either:

Do you really not care that you are the top of the hitlist? I don't really are if you are sum or not. I want you gone, you are being a pain in the ass. If you are town then you are doing a really bad job of it. If you are scum (which I think you are) then you are just being an ass to your scumbuddies.

My other vote will be a

Vote: animorpherv1

, though it's mainly a gut read and I have to leave in 2 minutes so I can't explain right now.

[Crazy]

I realize the statement I said about Snow/zwet showing honest ignorance of the setup being a town-tell was false... since scum would not necessarily know that they were not the only scum, unless if they read the first post. So meh.

Also, ani voting for Sens is so scummy I'd 100% advocate lynching him based on that alone. Think about it - if someone is replaced, then THEY CAN'T WIN! So how can asking to be replaced be scummy?

(Paltry's questioning is dead-on there.)

[Crazy]

WIFOM. If scum feels exposed and fear they are about to be evicted, they feel they can't win already, so why not throw a fit and ask to be replaced?

That could potentially happen, but it's not likely, since most people would just rather be evicted and hope their scumbuddies win it for them. It seems like you just made up a reason so it

could

be scummy.

I actually don't find Sens' request for replacement scummy. More like a childish attitude, but that's all. Why, I have found myself in that exact position in the past (though I never requested a replacement), and I can sort of understand that.

Cool, I agree.

@Crazy:

I find that replacing out of games is a bad habit for scum, when noone is listeneing to them. I would never do that, and I'd advise everyone else to do the same. And, just in case you haven't noticed, what Sens is doing is either really childish, or scummy, and he deserves to die because of both.

No, he doesn't. It's childish, but it's not scummy. You could maybe make an argument that he was scummy already before he asked to be replaced, but I know that's not what you were talking about when you voted him.

[Crazy]

WIFOM. If scum feels exposed and fear they are about to be evicted, they feel they can't win already, so why not throw a fit and ask to be replaced?

That could potentially happen, but it's not likely, since most people would just rather be evicted and hope their scumbuddies win it for them. It seems like you just made up a reason so it

could

be scummy.

I didn't make anything up. I have seen it happen before.

If it doesn't make sense logically, then one coincidence that you point out isn't going to change that.

[Crazy]

I'll check into this game a little later tonight.

[Crazy]

Okay, the Kmd/Sens nominations were pretty bad. I'm glad Paltry used the POV; I don't see how it's scummy (like pablito pointed out.) Pretty much, it puts a possibility of someone other than Sens being evicted.

Saber - I want clarification - were you actually trying to get evicted earlier today? It seems that's what people were assuming, but this quote seems to suggest otherwise.

. Don't worry, I only have jungle republic, kingdom hearts and friends and enemies mafia left [and this game]. All the games I wasn't interested in I have managed to get myself lynched. [I tried, but for some reason ppl thought I was scum...go figure]. All the games of which the flavours I am interested in, I have played reasonably well. The only exception is this one, but that's for a totally different reason altogether. That is not important though, what is important is catching scum. I'd like to see hewitt lynched today and kmd put back up later for info lynch if anything.

I also blame anyone that's looking for a saber policy lynch, including hewitt. That's too much of an easy out for scum, plus I have no real reason to see saber as scum.

I also don't care for hewitt's defense of Sly basically because he's caused an impact on the game and we need to vote out the people that aren't saying much, because they're bigger threats to win because they often win in BB. Sensfan said it before - this is NOT Big Brother; this is mafia with BB themes. I'd lynch an active person that did something scummy before I'd lynch a somewhat less active person that didn't do anything scummy.

And

nominate: animorph

, still because of the Sens vote 'cuz he asked for replacement.

[Crazy]

Hewitt - What I was referring to is this:

I think in this game particularly it's important to put early pressure on players who have made no impressionable impact on the game. Everybody who watches Big Brother knows that the dangerous ones in the game are the ones who fly under the radar. That'll be especially true in this game as well, we've already got people stating they'd like to evict SlySly tomorrow because he's in a position of power and has made an impressionable impact leaving those who want to slide under the radar, like yourself, safe. All you have to do is avoid nomination by not being memorable enough to warrant a nomination, and that's definitely a strategy I think a lot of scum will be employing.

That might not have been intended as a defense, but it comes across as one.

An animorpherv replacement nominee would be great but your reasoning is questionable. I don't even know what that means lol can you formulate a real reason here?

He voted for Sens basically because he requested replacement. I don't like that.

[Crazy]

I don't see how it's scummy (like pablito pointed out.)

You may want to give pablito's thoughts on the topic a reread.

What I was referring to was this:

Thinking more and more about the whole pov thing, I was thinking paltry as town, but it makes me thing of him more as scummy now. There was a bit too much willingness to use it, even before kmd went up. As for llama's reaction, I'd have to think harder on that one.

[Crazy]

I think you just misunderstood my post. Pablito said that using the PoV was scummy; I said I don't really agree nor understand why.

[Crazy]

Crazy, maybe I am reading your statement wrong.

Are you saying that you agree or disagree with pablito?

I think pablito was pointing out that there is an element of scumminess in Paltry's hasty decision to waste the POV.

I'm saying I disagree with pablito.

[Crazy]

All this BB-talk is annoying me. This is not Big Brother; this is mafia where people are lynched in the style of Big Brother.

The DisCode nomination also stinks; I'm thinking that I'll put up Sly if I'm HoH tomorrow. He just needs to be replaced.

I'm not sure who I'm voting for... at this point I'm slightly leaning towards hewitt... because there's nothing terribly scummy about DisCode, and I want to give his replacement a chance. Also, I find hewitt mildly scummy... though I don't exactly remember why.

[Crazy]

If you don't like flavor, don't sign up for theme games. This is Big Brother Mafia. It is a combination of both games, period. You can't separate them.

This is a mafia game that uses Big Brother mechanics to determine how people are lynched. That's it. Big Brother strategies, on the other hand, are completely irrelevant here, since the goal of this game is to elimate all opposing factions, while the goal of Big Brother is simply to not be evicted.

What makes you think you'll be HOH tomorrow? Somebody saying "if I'm evicted I'll nom xxx" doesn't mean you'll get it. Unless you know otherwise of course.

I didn't mean to imply I thought I'd be HoH; I was just saying that as a way to express my suspicion.

There's nothing particularly town about DisCode either. Replacement? What about giving Hewitt a chance?

DisCode's early posts seemed rather pro-town. But then so did SensFan's, I guess. Like I said, I'm kind of on the fence.

You are ignoring the reasons. The reasoning is what I went with. 3 made it majority over plurality.

Then why not put up zwet over DisCode? Or at least someone that people actually voted for. DisCode flaked from the game; that's something else entirely.

[Crazy]

I wanted to put Llama up but I felt that would just get hewitt evicted. Since hewitt has seem pretty pro-town to me since he has joined the game, I didn't necessarily want to see him evicted. So, I looked through what Llama had said and put up the person who he said he wanted in power for seemingly no good reason. When asked about it by kmd, Llama ignored the question. Saying DisCode flaked as opposed to him lurking is pure, unprovable speculation WIFOM. DisCode was as guilty as zwet for the same things zwet was being persecuted for and I just chose to go with the guy that seemed to have a connection to the guy I really wanted on the block.

Going off of an associative tell for the first vote is very weird. Especially since your main reason for thinking Llama is scum was his relation to Kmd and Sens (in regard to his explanation for his vote for Kmd as HoH, which you didn't like)! I think you're spiraling a bit out of control here with your whole "DisCode is tied to LlamaFluff, and LlamaFluff is tied to Kmd, and since Kmd is scum, that means LlamaFluff is scum, so DisCode is also scum." And all this without Kmd even flipping scum yet!

As for DisCode flaking, yes, he did flake. The evidence that he flaked is in the fact that he got replaced. He was not lurking, he just plainly disappeared.

[Crazy]

Hey, I'm liking Paltry's posts #674 and #676.

I actually didn't consider that Sens taking on Sly immediately as a town-tell, but that's interesting to note. That makes me want to evict hewitt significantly less.

This statement is just wrong. Survival is the name of the game in BB and in this game. The difference is that it doesn't come down to 2 people voted on by their peers at the end. The faction you are in just has to be the last that can't be eliminated. BB tactics can be applied to your win condition in this game.

Still no. One difference is that scum can win before the Final Two if they're protective of their group.

Another difference is that 8 of the people in the game have no alliance and can still win even if they die.

Another difference is that in BB, usually everyone lies to some degree; in this game, town still have no reason to lie.

I just meant WIFOM in a way that it couldn't be argued and proven either way, therefore irrelevant. I didn't mean there was anything bad by it.

Well,

now

it can be proven that he flaked. And when you nominated him, you should have been able to tell that he flaked, because scum don't "lurk" for 6 days on purpose.

If I had been playing this from the beginning, I would have gone with Sensfan/Ani as scumbuddies, with Sly as possibly on the opposing faction. Snow_Bunny seems to be actively lurking quite a bit, as are Siroginous and Saber.

Not many explanations there...

[Crazy]

I'm afraid I might not be able to get online tomorrow before deadline, so I'm just going to vote.

Vote: bv310

Neither of the two nominees I find particularly scummy, but I did have a town read on Sensfan, and bv's recent posts have been underwhelming.

[Crazy]

@Llama: I can't speak for the rest, but, my vote was based on I have a strong town feel on SensFan's slot. So, I voted non-hewitt.

Same for me, btw. ^Paltry convinced me.

[Crazy]

And the Ad Hom tunneling continues...

That's not what "Ad Hom" is.

Out of kmd/Sens :Sens. Kmd wasb't acting scumym and replacing out because of bad players is a bad move, and I sonsider it scummy.

Out of bv310/hewitt: bv310. Hewitt looked way more townie, and seemed more helpful overall.

Sens' role is hewitt's role. You say you'd vote for Sens because he was scummy, but you'd vote for bv310, because hewitt was not scummy?

I didn't read the last page yet, but my nominations would be (as I've said before)...

Vote: SlySly

Vote: animorpherv1

[Crazy]

Welcome back, bv.

I'll post tomorrow; it's too late now.

[Crazy]

I understand that you do know your alignment and that you are HoH. I am leaning heavily towards you being town at this point, which is the only reason Crazy wasn't put up as the replacement against you.

So you changed your mind about that, apparently? You said early in the game you'd put up the players you thought were most likely scum.

Why did you change your mind?

Hmm. Absolutely no info to take from this. Animorph and Snow_Bunny work as noms.

I thought Snowbunny was one of your higher town reads.

Paltry and the uber quick use of the POV to pull KMD out of the fire got to me. As others have already stated, it was almost a given that Sens would have been lynched given the choices and yet it was still used.

*blink* You're implying that Sens/hewitt being lynched would be a good thing? You said you thought both bv/hewitt were town!

I think what Paltry was trying to say is that he didn't use the PoV to

save

Kmd; it was to put a 3rd nominee on that he actually did think was scum.

I posted 2 quotes. One was tunneling and one was Ad Hom.

Actually, "ad hom" means saying someone's argument is invalid because of some personal factor... for example, "You're argument fails because you're an idiot."

How is it a scumtell that I agreed with you? And your "previously stated reasons" are crap.

Now that Sly has brought it up... why did you say you liked the bv nomination and then still vote to evict him?

I'm also feeling a bit of a lack of punch coming from Crazy. Kinda coasting.

Indeed, I'd agree with you. I'm surprised people have been saying I'm so pro-town.

Mostly, I think paltry used the pov to make himself look better, when it really wasn't used to the full benefit of the town.

Still, if the majority of the town preferred a hewitt lynch to a Kmd lynch, but a bv lynch over a hewitt lynch, then he used the PoV in a way that most of the town

liked.

I can't say that doing something the town

likes

is scummy.


(Haven't read the last two pages yet. Will do so later.)

[Crazy]

I didn't change my mind. When I put Sens up, I felt he was scum. hewitt's play since he replaced in is what has changed my feeling about the alignment of the role Sens was assigned.

You said if you thought hewitt was scum, then you'd put up me against him. I'm not your top scum-suspect.

Regardless, you've stated that DC wasn't your top suspect; it was LF, and you just put up DC because you knew LF wouldn't be evicted. So yeah, you changed your mind.

No. What made you think that?

This:

Who does everyone want as the next HOH? I'm not going to just take who everyone says, but I want input. I'm leaning Snow-Bunny.

Um. Are you implying that I shouldn't have voted to evict someone who I liked to see nominated for eviction?

Oops. Logic fail on my part. Looking back, your earlier actions do indicate that you were suspicious of DisCode.

Saying "you did something stupid and wasted a PoV which is scummy" isnt an-hom. Saying "You are an idiot. We have only one Pov" is ad-hom.

Im not attacking you, just describing your move.

Actually, neither of those are actually ad hom, unless if I'm just totally mistaken.

[Crazy]

See I'd like to see animorpherv get evicted because I think he's an anti-town unhelpful player. But it sounds like you'd like to see him get evicted because you think he was buddying up to SensFan, who is now me. And unless animorpherv was attempting to buddy up to a floater (which I'm not sure if he's smart enough to do) an animorpherv nomination/eviction for THAT reason does not make sense to me.

Ani wasn't buddying up to Sens; he was on his wagon on REALLY bad reasoning.

Anyway, Sly and Ani are my top two, I'd be happy with either of them being evicted.

All those who throw out nomination suggestions without giving reasons why are being thrown out, I'm not even considering them. This includes...

Bleh, I've explained my suspicions of Sly and ani before, I just happened not to say them

in that post

!

Sly is scummy for putting up nominations almost completely against the wishes of the town.
Ani is scummy for wanting Sensfan evicted essentially because of replacing out. Yeah.

hewitt was already up. If hewitt had not played the way he has played and changed my opinion of his alignment, I would have put you up against him because I felt you had played the most town-like game up to that point. I feel in that case, hewitt would have been evicted over you. Because hewitt's play had changed my mind about his alignment, I didn't put you up against him. I have already clearly stated this before.

Yes, you have stated that clearly before. I understand.

BUT, putting me up would be a breach of your own policy that you would put up your top two scum suspects. Do you acknowledge that, or deny it?

@KMD-937 - Okay.

Again, you're confusing things. Most of the town preferred a Sens lynch to a Hewitt lynch because of the scummy way that Sens was playing. I explained this in my last post.

I'm not talking about how hewitt "redeemed" Sensfan... that's irrelevant.

What I'm talking about is if it had remained Kmd vs. hewitt, then hewitt would have been lynched. Thus, Paltry used the POV in a way that was satisfactory, because it removed a less preferred nomination (Kmd) in return for a more preferred nomination (bv).

Everyone:

- I'm not sure why this didn't occur to me earlier... but why doesn't the person with the POV just claim? This is a nightless game, so they can't be killed by scum.

[Crazy]

I choose to nominate SlySly and Snow_Bunny for eviction

I like those choices.

I didn't put you up. So, whether it would be or not, doesn't matter.

I suppose. Yet, you did put bv up, and he wasn't your top suspect.

[Crazy]

Hmm, I saw Mr. Finch saying that, but I forgot to comment about it.

It's easy to solve. Get rid of Sly. If he turns town then we need to look hard at KMD/Llama.

Is this because Sly is suspicious of them or because they are suspicious of Sly? Either way, I don't get it.

[Crazy]

I didn't put you up. So, whether it would be or not, doesn't matter.

I suppose. Yet, you did put bv up, and he wasn't your top suspect.

Dude, you are dense. I put up my 2 top picks, kmd and Sens. I think you know the rest of the story after Paltry wasted the POV and I couldn't put Paltry or kmd back on the block.

Yet bv still wasn't your top suspect after Kmd and Sens, was he?

I understand why you changed your mind on your policy, but it bugs me that you won't acknowledge that you did.

[Crazy]

I have already acknowledged it many times over. My top pick after that was Llama. hewitt seemed townish to me after replacing in and I didn't want him evicted after the wasting of the POV. Since I didn't feel Llama would be evicted over hewitt, I put up the person that Llama wanted as HoH against hewitt to give hewitt a better chance of survival. Sound familiar?

That's a very long way of saying, "Yes, I did change my mind."

Good, you carbon copy stated the reasoning why I nominated Snow. I completely 100% agree and I'm okay with either of the nominees being evicted.

In all fairness, Kmd had Snow as a suspect before you even came into the game.

vote Sly

I'd like to hear more from SnowBunny before I vote for her.

Very funny.

Anyway, Sly and Snow are both near the top of my scum-list. I want to wait a little before I decide who to vote for. (Mainly, I want to see what Snowbunny does in the next few days.)

[Crazy]

I didn't change my mind. When I put Sens up, I felt he was scum. hewitt's play since he replaced in is what has changed my feeling about the alignment of the role Sens was assigned.

Denying that you changed your mind.

hewitt was already up. If hewitt had not played the way he has played and changed my opinion of his alignment, I would have put you up against him because I felt you had played the most town-like game up to that point. I feel in that case, hewitt would have been evicted over you. Because hewitt's play had changed my mind about his alignment, I didn't put you up against him. I have already clearly stated this before.

Not saying that you changed your mind.

I didn't put you up. So, whether it would be or not, doesn't matter.

Not saying that you changed your mind.

Dude, you are dense. I put up my 2 top picks, kmd and Sens. I think you know the rest of the story after Paltry wasted the POV and I couldn't put Paltry or kmd back on the block.

Not saying that you changed your mind.

I have already acknowledged it many times over. My top pick after that was Llama. hewitt seemed townish to me after replacing in and I didn't want him evicted after the wasting of the POV. Since I didn't feel Llama would be evicted over hewitt, I put up the person that Llama wanted as HoH against hewitt to give hewitt a better chance of survival. Sound familiar?

Somewhat implying that you changed your mind, but not actually saying it. Hence why I asked for clarification.

I already said it many times before. Why did you insist I say it again if you heard it the first 100 times I said it?

Out of these "100 times" you've said it, I only count about half a time, in your last post. All this question dodging is annoying and it makes me regret going down this road in the first place.

[Crazy]

I'll post a little later today.

[Crazy]

Do the math...

6 town vs 6 scum (3a, 3b)

6 - 1 floater HoH = 5 town vs 6 scum giving suggestions.

Nope. My impression would be that most scum would prefer to evict the other scum rather than town. Whenever I've been scum in a game with multiple scum-groups, I've always scum-hunted as much (or mostly as much) as I always do.

Snow's recent posts seem a lot more earnest to me. I kind of want to keep her just to see how her future postings go.

Vote: Sly

[Crazy]

Personally, I don't see Sir's "quickhammer" being scummy in any regard. Note that he could have chosen to wait a little while and then vote and still end up evicting Sly, since none of the others would be allowed to unvote, and Sly was at L-1.

So, pablito, is the fact that the hammer was a "quickhammer" a big deal, or is it only because he said he would vote for whoever had the most votes?

[Crazy]

I do think it could've been interesting to see how paltry would've voted if sly was already dead though. and sir took that opportunity away from us. so in that way, it can be seen as scummy as well.

You seriously think Sir is crafty enough to see that consequence? Scum that are that crafty aren't the same scum that will vote for someone because "they have more votes."

[Crazy]

I really hope Sly is scum. If he wasn't, that would be seriously annoying. I'd think a townie wouldn't deviate so much from the wishes of the town.

I've just realized my opinion of Snow is shaken every time Kmd's opinion of Snow changes (and I believe his opinion has gone from scum -> town -> scum). I also find that annoying because I want to follow my own instincts but apparently I'm not confident enough in any of them (for a short period I even thought SLY was town!)

Bleh, rant over.

[Crazy]

FOS: Crazy

Lame. Explain yourself, or not, your choice.

I must say that this twilight phase has been extremely informative. If you guys want, I'll vote so we can end it. Otherwise if no one has an opinion, I'll just vote right before deadline.

Lame. I didn't realize you were purposefully dragging this out. Almost 24 hours passed without a post, and then when me and ani post you step in to say "this twilight phase has been extremely informative?!" Are you implying anything specific without actually pointing it out or just saying nothing?

You didn't answer my last question, btw.

[Crazy]

(I was in a bit of a bad mood last night; sorry about that. I think I caught a negative tone from pablito's post that really wasn't there.)

Too me, it sounds like your trying to buddy with kmd.

Okay, I can see how you'd think that. Basically, I just mentioned him because he was the first person to ever really mention Snowbunny, and it was basically because of his case that made me look at Snowbunny.

[Crazy]

Vote: ani

Same thing as before. He found it scummy that Sens got replaced. It's scummier if you note he followed Sly's lead.

Vote: Kast

is the other one, but I don't feel as strongly about it. My logic is that Sly definitely was saving someone when he nominated DisCode, and zwet and saber were the vote leaders at that time. I'm sure Sly could have realized that he would have looked a lot less scummier than if he had just nominated Zwet. Also, Sly was calling DisCode a lurker, while most others were calling Zwet a lurker.

[Crazy]

Had family in town the past couple days... I'll post tomorrow.

[Crazy]

And on the SlySly wagon you've got the most anti-town seeming player of the game, the player most likely to be on a scumteam with SlySly, a player who replaced a very dubious former player and is fond of slinging crap,

a player who I get a concerning overly defensive vibe from

, another player who replaced an even more dubious former player, and a player who I really don't even think reads this game before commenting.

You get an overly defensive vibe from me?

-2 Kast votes that seem to come out of nowhere

I want everyone's thoughts on Paltry ASAP

Well, my Kast vote was just a wild card... since who I really want gone is ani. And honestly, he'd have a much better chance of getting evicted over Kast than over Snow.

And think of it, Sly had to be doing SOMETHING when he nominated DisCode! Why else would he do something that made him look like total scum? I'm not sure if Kast is the answer to that question, but that question has to have SOME answer, right? What do you think?

As for Paltry, he's one of my top town-reads. I'm not sure why you think he's Sly's partner; I mean, it's not impossible, but it would require a great deal of bussing. And bussing is much less viable in games with multiple scum-teams. *shrug* From what I can see from your posts, your entire case on Paltry is based on how he changed his opinion when Sly started to take heat early in the game. For me, that's just "meh."

Question:
Would we rather evict a Chenbot today or take a shot at the other group? Or does it even matter?

I want to go for most likely to be any (or either) scum.

I'd rather evict chenbots first, since there down one already.

That's a really weird stance. You mean, if there was a confirmed Chenbot and a confirmed *whatever the other scum-team is*, you'd vote for the Chenbot?

[Crazy]

(And yes, I obviously didn't read the whole thread yet.)

[Crazy]

@Crazy and ani - do you remember that Kast has coup d'etat?

Do you still support nominating kast? why or why not?

No, I didn't know that.

In that case, we shouldn't nominate him, at least not now. Even if he's scum, we can order him to use the coup d'etat when someone makes bad nominations... and if he doesn't use it, then well, he's scum.

I was going to say something like that. What exactly do you expect to win by lynching me? I know I'm town, and thus my flip would bring nothing good to town. One less townie, and not much info.

A Llama lynch, in the other hand, would bring more useful information, and we might as well get rid of a scum that is making a good job to look townie.

"I'm town" really isn't much of an argument... people want to lynch you because you're scummy... And you want to lynch Llama... just for that little post where he "set up lynches?" Is a Llama lynch better than an ani lynch?

I feel that Crazy´s position on snow bunny is still a bit vague. and obv snow´s position on crazy (and everyone else) is vague as well

Well, I thought she was obvscum early on... now I'm less certain but still leaning scum.

Crazy, Sly strikes me as someone who would bus. And Paltry's reaction looked like scum who knew his buddy was caught.

What are your thoughts on the possibility of being nominated against Paltry?

To me, Sly bussing Paltry is just a "possibility." I don't find it particularly likely to be true, mainly because seeing all of the Paltry-Sly interactions as just a coincidence isn't very difficult at all.

I didn't think there was a possibility of me being nominated against Paltry... if that happened, that would suck. *shrug*

****

I believe the case against me is that I don't have much of a push of aggression to my posts? Honestly, unless if I'm really

involved

and excited about one of my games, I usually play in a similar manner to the way I'm playing here. Right now my interest in mafia is relatively low, which is why this is my only ongoing game.

[Crazy]

I think the fact that Kast claimed the coup detat right away is a big point in his favor. Thoughts?

Missed this post, but this statement is false. Kast would claim he had the coup d'etat as scum if he would claim he had the coup d'etat as town. The basic strategy as scum is to appear like you're town. If he's scum and didn't claim he had the coup d'etat, then later in the game he'd be stuck with questions about "Why didn't you claim you had it earlier?"

[Crazy]

On re-read, the most likely answer is that he was defending saber who was supposedly his top suspect.

Yeah, that's a possibility. I'm not really sure.

@bv: All nominations will have "good discussion," unless if one person is obvtown and one is obvscum.

Personally, I think the nominations stink. The main nom, Paltry, is based entirely off of associative tells, and Kmd just picked me to give Paltry a good chance of being evicted. (I'm imagining that the only other people that Paltry might not survive against would be Llama, pablito, and hewitt... and if Kmd put any of those up instead of me he'd look like total scum.)

[Crazy]

I think Crazy should take this opportunity to convince us why he should stay as well. And I hope someone will make a case against Crazy. When I get time, I'll try to post one.

Well, the things you mention about me (that I lack "punch") are pretty much just part of my general playstyle. Unless if I'm deeply involved in a game, I'm rarely an aggressive player. I can attest to my currently mild interest in mafia games by pointing out that this is my only ongoing game.

That's not to say that I'm desperately waiting for this game to end so I can take a break from mafia; when this game ends, I'll probably join another one. If I join another game without my "punch" and/or activity levels picking up in this game, you're free to call me scum.

I also think most people would agree that I'm not scum with Sly. I think the rest of the case on me rests on me being scum with Snow... as for that, Snow is far scummier than I am (I don't think anyone would argue that), so if you think we're scum together, it makes no sense to lynch me before you lynch Snow. Other than to save Paltry, I suppose. *shrug*

The only other thing I remember you mentioning was that people seem to be avoiding mentioning me. That may be true, but I can only have 2 scum-partners at max. If this whole game is avoiding mentioning me, that means town players are avoiding mentioning me, too.

***

I'm not going to argue that Paltry is scum, because honestly I still think he's town. I do think Ani is scum... and people like Snow/Mr Finch probably are, too. And with his last nominations, Kmd jumped right near the top of my scumlist.

[Crazy]

Crazy, I'm curious. How do you see yourself as being linked to Snow. I don't remember anyone saying that.

Pablito said this:

I feel that Crazy´s position on snow bunny is still a bit vague. and obv snow´s position on crazy (and everyone else) is vague as well

If it wasn't that I was linked to Snow, then I'm not sure what he was implying.

[Crazy]

To me, Paltry is NOT the sure fire eviction. It's all going to come down to which alignment I believe Kmd to be. If I think he's option A then Crazy will most likely be my vote. If I think this is option B then Paltry will most likely be my vote.

I'm having trouble comprehending this. I also am doubting the relevance of Kmd's alignment to mine and Paltry's alignment, especially in a game with multiple scum teams.

What you're saying...

-If Kmd is town, then you'd vote for me. To me, that implies that you are straightforwardly more suspicious of me than Paltry.

-If Kmd is scum, then you'd vote for Paltry. That makes no sense at all to me. I think Kmd bussing Paltry like that would be a horrible scum move. I wouldn't rule it out, but in no way would I ever consider it a likely possibility.

Explain, please?

[Crazy]

This is the second time where an HoH did not listen to the town's suggestion and nominated who they felt like. The first time was when scum was HoH. I'm not just going to sit here and say well Kmd is HoH and he wants Paltry evicted so that's who I'm going to vote to evict. Fuck. No. You have to take in consideration all three of your possible alignments. It's called looking at the bigger picture...duh.

When did I say that you should evict Paltry just because that's what Kmd wants? I never said that.

I also don't really think you're looking at what scum is capable of in this game. For example, animorpherv is universally considered to be one of the scummiest players in this game and wanted to be seen evicted. That must mean we all think he's scum, which also means that AT LEAST one if not two scum partners are bussing him. Bussing happens, and it happens frequently and not just on weak players. It's the way of the game.

Well, ani is a much different case... since people would be suspicious of ani regardless of whether his scum-partners were "bussing" him or not. If ani's scum-partners defended him strongly, and then ani flipped as scum, then that would look really bad on their part.

On the other hand, Paltry would likely not have been lynched anytime soon had Kmd not nominated him. I am

not

ruling out a possible bus, but I see it as quite unlikely. You seem to think that it's the most likely scenario. I want to know why.

[Crazy]

I didn't say that you should do that Crazy, that was my own opinion. This is why I get that overly defensive vibe from you.

You quoted me, dude. If you type something right after you quote me, I'm going to assume that you're directing your comment towards me.

So if he's scum and clearly looking to get rid of Paltry I'm going to sabotage him and evict you because Paltry's actually made moves this game and you've just kind of sat back and played defense this whole time. Hmmm who would I rather have on my team in the end...

That makes more sense than what you said earlier... was what you said earlier a mistake?

These nominations are one of two things
A) Town Kmd is trying to put up two scum players who he thinks will be tough to evict in the end instead of easier scum targets.
B) Scum Kmd is trying to put up two town players who he thinks will be tough to evict in the end instead of easier town targets.

To me, Paltry is NOT the sure fire eviction. It's all going to come down to which alignment I believe Kmd to be. If I think he's option A then Crazy will most likely be my vote.

If I think this is option B then Paltry will most likely be my vote.

Now I'm sure you see why I called you out on that...

[Crazy]

Post 1190 - You say if Kmd is scum, then you want Paltry evicted.

Post 1207 - You say if Kmd is scum, then you want me evicted.

If you're trying to tell me those two posts are saying the same thing, then you're totally scum.

[Crazy]

Nah, I got it.

[Crazy]

Actually, one reason why I would suspect you is that you seem to jab really hard against anyone who mentions your name. I have mentioned your name, and you seem to be harsh on me. That makes me vigilant of you. But as you mention, I'm sure you're not one of Sly's partners.

If I sound harsh, it's usually because I'm just trying to poke around the situation and find out more information (like, do they abandon their argument or continue to push it, etc.) Also, sometimes I'm sure I come across as harsh when I don't intend to be.

If someone attacks me (especially in a weak-mannered way), I do like to question them about it.

About the coup: I think if a majority of the town wants to use it, then Kast should use it.

In this situation, I would vote to use it.

[Crazy]

@PE/Crazy - Can you each lay out your top suspects + partners to Sly. Also do you think eachother are town or scum?

My top suspects are still Ani and Snow. Sly's partners I'm really not sure at the moment.

I think Paltry is town.

I'm not overly convinced with the case on either of the noms, but of the two I find Crazy more suspicious. He's been really defensive whenever someone hasa mentioned him, and his explanation really has not been convincing.

It sounds to me like you're copying what other people have said. Can you point to specific examples. (Preferably to before I was nominated, because when you're nominated there's really no limit to how defensive you should be, since you're at direct risk.)

[Crazy]

Noo, SensFan was scummy because he asked to be replaced for a bad reason.

*headdesk* Being replaced can't be scummy! I can't believe you're still holding on to that!

I have to ask however: Do you still find Mr. Finch scummy?
Now that Kmd has deviated immensly from the town, do you think Kmd is scummy?

I find them both scummy to some degree. To what degree, I'm not sure at the moment (gotta read back). However, I think we can all agree that Kmd's nominations are strictly

less

scummy than Sly's nominations. This is WIFOM, but it's less likely that Kmd-scum would do the same thing that got Sly-scum evicted. Do I still find his nominations scummy? Yes, but I'm second-guessing that constantly.

Kmd, if you're scum, you have successfully confused me!

[Crazy]

@bv - I think you missed this.

I'm not overly convinced with the case on either of the noms, but of the two I find Crazy more suspicious. He's been really defensive whenever someone hasa mentioned him, and his explanation really has not been convincing.

It sounds to me like you're copying what other people have said. Can you point to specific examples. (Preferably to before I was nominated, because when you're nominated there's really no limit to how defensive you should be, since you're at direct risk.)

[Crazy]

As I've said before, I see Paltry as strong town.

On Crazy I have not that feeling. I think both are town, but I think Paltry is a better townie than Crazy.

Where specifically have you pointed out Paltry as strong-town? Your next most recent post regarding Paltry seemed to have a neutral-townish sort of way to it:

I must say, I can clearly see Sly-Finch, but I still don't see much on Paltry. It is true that D1 actions show some connections, but I can see that coming from townie as well.

[Crazy]

Remembered something... I really ought to have pushed this conversation further:

I do think it could've been interesting to see how paltry would've voted if sly was already dead though. and sir took that opportunity away from us. so in that way, it can be seen as scummy as well.

You seriously think Sir is crafty enough to see that consequence? Scum that are that crafty aren't the same scum that will vote for someone because "they have more votes."

No, I don't think Sironigous was clever enough to know that in advance. But there was acknowledgement that he was the lynching vote. That's something.

I see somewhat of a backtrack between pablito's first and second quote, here. Or at least it's showing a mentality of "It's scummy 'cuz it helps scum" rather than "It's scummy 'cuz scum would do it."

Pablito, if Sir couldn't have seen how his "hammer vote" helped scum, then how was it scummy?

[Crazy]

Good answer. Crazy, who would you nominate for eviction if you were tapped as the next HoH?

Ani and Snow. Possibly ani + a pawn, but more likely Ani and Snow.

[Crazy]

Deadline's tomorrow; if any of you guys have any questions for me (or if I've missed any, possibly) before you vote, please ask.

[Crazy]

Crazy and Paltry (although I already think I know what Paltry's going to say), if you get tapped as HoH tomorrow, who would you nominate?

Ani and Snow, still.

[Crazy]

It's a tough call, I don't really see any damning evidence to believe either are scum. I'm sure at least one is, just because of the numbers, but I can't see anything that leads me to believe one is scum over the other. It seems to me Paltry has put in a lot more effort since being nominated, while Crazy just seems to not even be reading the game. This is more a vote to keep the player who I think is going to be more helpful and less of a vote to evict Crazy.

Yeah, I'm probably not putting forth the effort Paltry is, but I'm not capable of being as articulate as he is, anyway. I really only comment on the things I care about... and I like to keep things to-the-point.

Where's the evidence that I'm not even reading the thread? Is this about that argument we had... I thought we cleared that up?

Honestly, if someone's not reading the thread, it's bv. He asked me the same question that I already answered further up the page, and he still hasn't answered my question.

[Crazy]

So, hewitt, are you voting me because

(a)

you think I'm more likely to be scum than Paltry, or

(b)

just because I'd be less useful as a townie than Paltry?

If it's the former, then judging based on presumed effort is really poor logic, because it ignores meta; Paltry just plainly will always type more words than I will, since he's a different type of player than I am (and he likely enjoys playing mafia significantly more than I do - not that I don't enjoy it, but I don't enjoy it to the point that I will devote 6-8 hours to typing a post for every player in the game.) I don't judge people in this way - for example, I do not think ani is scum because he makes short posts; I think he is scum for attacking Sens/you for getting replaced under bad circumstances.

If it's the latter, then that doesn't make sense because earlier you said you thought at least one of me/Paltry was scum because of the numbers. In the same post that you voted me, in fact.

[Crazy]

You guys know who my top suspects are. (Ani, Snow, and I'll even add bv to the list now.) Anybody below that isn't particularly relevant, unless if they end up nominated. I don't even have them in order in my head.

Let me ask you, though... how useful is "sitting under the radar" going to be when you're

nominated for eviction?

Not too useful, I bet, since if you're nominated, that automatically puts you in the spotlight.

I think what made you change your mind is Paltry's big fat posts about every player in the game, right? Newsflash, he also made those when he was

nominated for eviction.

Which means he was already in the spotlight; there was no use to hide.

For scum or town that's already in the spotlight, there's no benefit to do anything less than your full potential, right? So judging activity levels of people who are nominated is pretty dang useless.

[Crazy]

So judging activity levels of people who are nominated is pretty dang useless.

You can replace "activity levels" with whatever you like, the point is, striving to be UTR when you're nominated is useless.

If you want to judge that based on stuff before we were nominated, that's fine, but I don't think that's what you were doing, considering before we were nominated, you considered Paltry to be scummier than me.

[Crazy]

Yeah, Paltry definitely made scummier moves than you before you both were nominated and I did think he was the more likely to be scum. But now that I've had time to see both of you in the spotlight the fact is in comparison to Paltry, you're pretty useless. I don't care what your thoughts are on animorpherv and Snow Bunny, who gives a fuck? Everybody thinks they're scummy, that gives me absolutely no insight on you.

I was the 2nd person to be suspicious of Snow, and the 1st person to be suspicious of ani. I'll admit people might not be following me; their opinions are likely independent of mine, but I'm sure as heck not following them. Don't blame me if people start saying the same things that I am saying.

And please, still explain how I would benefit from staying "under the radar" once I'm already nominated?

@bv

To be totally honest, I don't think either of you are particularly scummy atm, but I probably wont be on tomorrow, so VOTE: Paltry Crazy's posts so far have been less swayed, and I think he could be useful to town more than Paltry (who so far has never astounded me)

I'd vote no lynch if I could. I don't like either of these noms.

Paltry seemed more suspicious earlier

, but he's moved up in my list, although Crazy's still ahead.

I searched your posts earlier, and I never see you saying that you were more suspicious of Paltry than me... in fact, you said the opposite:

I'm not overly convinced with the case on either of the noms,

but of the two I find Crazy more suspicious.

He's been really defensive whenever someone hasa mentioned him, and his explanation really has not been convincing.

[Crazy]

No, hewitt, the choice wasn't between Paltry and [whoever else is most fit to be lynched]; it was between Paltry and me. If someone is considering who to vote,

they will see my name as one of the two options!

If a scum was trying to stay under the radar, by the time they're nominated, they've already lost that fight. Any townie will logically see the lynch as either

Paltry

or

Crazy

. Paltry was never the default lynch; you said so yourself.

Personally, I haven't been trying to stay under the radar; I've never gone for that strategy as town or scum, since for me, it's not all that fun. Are you really that upset that you don't know who my 4th and 5th suspects are?

I don't even know who my 4th and 5th suspects are!

[Crazy]

Crazy, I was flipflopping between the two of you for all of this day. Neither of you did anything all that suspicious. I only voted to avoid getting modkilled.

Interesting. If you would have had Kast's coup, would you have used it, then? Why or why not?

[Crazy]

9 players left.

1 chenbot-scum
3 producer-scum
5 town

The producers-scum are obviously priority now. I will not nominate anyone today based on them being probable chenbot-scum.

Thank you for picking me as HoH, Paltry. It's nice to get a day to focus entirely on scum-hunting rather than self-defense.

For today, my main focus will go to ani, snow, and bv, since those are the three I would most like to see evicted. I'm not sure which one(s) yet I will nominate; I'll figure that out later.

Feel free to still vote, though; who knows, you might convince me of something entirely better.

[Crazy]

Just a note, to anyone who didn't think Snow was scummier then me before, how she doesn't nominate me. Where as everyone else will. Extremly scummy.

Personally, I see that as a WIFOM-ish town-tell for her, in that she's not going for the easy way out. Why do you think it's scummy?

I was the first person really pushing for the ani lynch

That disappoints me, because I thought it was me. Looking back, though, it appears Paltry deserves the credit of being the first. You're second, and I'm 3rd.

Ah well, it was all about the same time, anyway, as I can see.

I'm kind of thinking ani + bv, right now. I'm just not as sold of Snow being scum as the other 2 (even though Snow is definitely 3rd on my list.)

[Crazy]

Crazy: Voting Sly because "Snow's posts seem a lot more earnest". @Crazy: Is that still the case? Without the fact that Sly is scum, would you still be voting for Sly?

Yeah, I still would have voted for Sly. My read on Snow now is approximately the same as it was then.

[Crazy]

Ani, I'm giving you one last chance for you to explain how Sens' being replaced out was scummy. Otherwise, I'm going to nominate you.

[Crazy]

Yeah, I realize you've answered that before... I still just don't grasp your logic.

Are you saying that scum would be more likely to get enraged or be more likely to quit, or what?

[Crazy]

Crap, I know I don't believe in ani's logic, but it kinda seems that he has thought it out for himself. Proving that ani's logic is wrong doesn't mean anything, unfortunately.

I'm probably going to end up nominating ani/bv anyway (bv gets the nom just for asking a question that was already asked further up the page), but nobody is obvscum for me, anymore.

[Crazy]

I don't have any time now, so I'll just put up the noms.

Nominate: animorph and bv

[Crazy]

I didn't realize putting noms up earlier would have given more time for you guys to vote; otherwise I would have done that sooner.

[Crazy]

Okay, so ani's dead. 4/6 votes.

Last time I watched BB, I just remembered that (# of players) - (3) = (# of voters.)

[Crazy]

Actually, Kast should be nominated tomorrow to force the coup d'etat out of him. If Kast is a Mafia Producer on Day 6 with both of his partners still alive, he could use the coup and win. On Day 5, he won't be able to instantly win by using it, regardless of his alignment.

And here I'm hoping that ani isn't the last Chenbot that's going to make Kast HoH tomorrow just for the heck of it.

[Crazy]

@Kast, by forcing you to use the Coup tomorrow...

a. If you're town, then we get nominations that are controlled by a townie tomorrow.
b. If you're Producer-scum, then you won't get an auto-win on Day 6.
c. If you're Chenbot-scum, it really doesn't matter either way.

The only potential loss is that the Day 6 HoH puts up crappier noms than the Day 5 HoH,

and

you are pro-town. And I'm not going to base a whole lot on that possibility.

[Crazy]

@Crazy-
-Forced use of Coup prevents town from stopping a D6 producer win if a Producer is selected as HoH.
-Forced use of Coup prevents town from learning information from my use of Coup.

The former is true, although I'd put greater faith that the D6 HoH is town rather than that you are town. I am assuming here that ani is non-producer and the Day 5 lynch is non-producer, because if they were producers, then this whole argument is irrelevant because there's no possible auto-win for producers.

[Crazy]

To the first, we will see in a few hours.

To the second, the priority for D5 should be hitting Producer-scum. If HoH is a townie, his objective should be to pick the most probable Producers as his noms. Playing a strategy that assumes this will not happen locks townies into suboptimal play and excuses scum to engage in anti-town behavior.

Well, if you're forced to used your coup tomorrow, and you're town, then you can nominate those Producer scumz! If you can get producer scumz lynched, then we don't have to worry about a producer HoH Day 6 auto-winning, 'kay?

[Crazy]

Yay!

Getting the coup d'etat used up is useless now. Simply put, Kast can use it if Kmd puts up crap nominations; otherwise, Kast is the "automatic-HoH" for tomorrow.

[Crazy]

Oh, and

Nominate: Bv and Snow

I also need to look at that argument between Kast and hewitt, since Kast seems so certain he's found scum there.

[Crazy]

Quick question to everyone: when I flip town, who are your guesses for the remaining chenbot?

I got a certain hunch about hewitt at the moment... but it's specifically a chenbot-hunch and not a general scum-hunch, so it doesn't really matter to me now.

[Crazy]

^I'd support your idea, Llama, and I'd vote to evict Snow.

Obviously, it's up to Kmd, and I'm not sure he cares what anybody else wants.

[Crazy]

Anyone feeling safe this week besides the HOH?

I am, actually. From an objective point of view, I'm probably the least likely to be scum, because I have negative links to both scum-teams.

Do you think the either scum team could win the million dollars?

Yes, everyone still has a chance, though it's going to be really tough for the last Chenbot.

[Crazy]

Yikes.

Llama has negative ties to both Sly and Ani, from his perspective.

I need to check pablito's connections with dead scum, I think.

And what's with this new pablito-hewitt buddying crap?

[Crazy]

Eh, I'll make sure to post later tonight.

[Crazy]

I'm going to

Vote: pablito

. Whether he's likely to be scum I'm really not sure, but in my eyes he's certainly more likely to be scum than LlamaFluff.

I assume LlamaFluff's association with ani was based off of ani saying Llama was pro-town a few times? Bleh. Rarely do scumbuddies even do that in the first place. Llama's early open attacks against ani speak much more loudly, I think.

Pablito is much more likely to be producer-scum. When I searched him in iso, a couple of his posts seem a bit vague in regards to ani, especially considering that pablito is hardly ever vague:

There was some question before about my thoughts on ani. Honestly, at the moment, my thoughts on ani rely mostly on everyone else's thoughts. I have not looked at him in isolation and therefore cannot confidently put my own statement on anything from him. The fact that I can't probably means that he hasn't done anything to outright catch my attention, but his actions and his votes have made me aware of him and I put him in the back of my mind. If I were to look at ani (and I have at some point in the past, maybe last game week), I sensed he's not on my deffo town list, but he's somewhere in the middle for me. But I have not found a single instance that I can put down as him being scummy right now.

Hrm. I mean ani contributes and does a lot, but in this search, I can't pick up anything scummy because ani's posts are very short and I can't see any nuances in them. I'd have to look at all the posts in context to see what he does in actions and timing. It is significant however that ani pushes replacements to give immediate thoughts upon coming into the game though.

As for not nomming animorph. I have suspected him a lot of the game, and it wasn't until I read my own posts that I've actually seen that I have FOSed him or whatnot, but when I list out my suspicion lists, he's never there, because he always slips my mind. In fact, I mentioned as such in my last post where you did ask me to look at him. So while I've pointed out scummy things he's done, I guess I never took hard value in those points. And looking at the reasons I've pointed out before, ani continues to slip under my radar. It's just that players like Mr Finch and Sironigous have piqued my interest as of late. My failure to ever nominate or suggest animorph is based on my failure to synthesize all of the data I have poked at and realize that ani is on all those lists. I've been focusing on so many of the more interesting nuances in isolation that I hadn't seen the big picture.

[Crazy]

@crazy - all your quotes incidentally were spurred by kmd's questions toward me. I really don't think I would've mentioned ani all that much the entire time as my thoughts were focused on snow and sir (and to some extent paltry and sly). Is your vote more to protect llama or to evict me?

I compared the two of you and I saw you as more likely to be a producer than Llama. I saw Llama as someone who was "probably not" a producer, and you as someone who "might be" a producer.

I also think that you're more likely to be a Chenbot than Llama.

***

Ah, new nominations, and once again I am up against my biggest town read, lulz.

@Kmd, wasn't your confidence shaken a tiny bit when Paltry flipped town? Yet you still felt the need to

pull this crap again?!

Last time that everyone disagreed with you, you were wrong. So why do it again? Are you just absurdly overconfident in your scum-hunting abilities?

[Crazy]

And yeah, feel free to ask me questions, and such.

[Crazy]

Crazy - I was the most vocal person on Sironigous. Does that make me more of a chenbot?

Hmm, forgot about that. All that came to my mind was Llama's conflict with Sly. But yeah, your interactions with Sir put you as probably-not-chenbot. It wouldn't shock me if you were Producer, though, as it would shock me if Llama was

either

scum.

I'm leaning toward keeping Llama now. Crazy has not shown much initiative since he's been nominated. I'll re-read to see how Crazy has interacted with ani and Sly/Sir, but I did not like how Crazy stated that he was the one least connected to both scum teams. That's nothing to boast or state for your self. But I really really just need to re-read everything before I know what's goin on.

Actually, I've seen other people call Llama scum so "everyone" doesn't disagree.

Pff, only Snow, who you also think is scum, and pablito, who is now backtracking on that. Lulz.

Kmd, my issue with you is that a townie that went against the grain the first time and was

wrong

would be a bit shaken up and not likely to try it again.

2. If Crazy and Llama are both floaters I'd much rather keep Llama because Crazy rarely contributes anything substantial...at all...and I've been saying that since he was up for eviction against Paltry. Plus, I think he's just generally more likely to be a Producer than Llama ever will be.

I've been lazy lately... but I was contributing hard when I was nominated earlier. XD If you want to evict me over Llama because of that, I can't object.

But how am I more likely to be a Producer than Llama? I really don't think either of us are likely to be producers, but I put ani up against bv when I could have just as easily put him up against Snow! Come on, lol.

(And if you're gonna mention that that's WIFOM, then you fail, because that would require way more forethought than anybody is capable of.)

What about me? You have been suspicious about me the whole game, yet you failed to nominate me the two times you have had the power.

I know what Kmd's argument is to that (it's that you'd be evicted anyway), but I certainly know if I was Kmd-town and made a grave error in putting up Paltry, I'd be much more likely to play it safe and nominate Snow, who most people (as well as Kmd) in the game suspect to some degree.

***

I want to dig into Pablito's use of the veto a little later; that seemed a little fishy to me.

***

Also, hewitt, if I was evicted and made you HoH, who would you put up?

[Crazy]

How fishy will it look AFTER Llama flips producer?

Here's Pablito's thoughts: "Shit, I'm nom'd with my buddy. Looks like he's gonna be evicted. Wait, maybe if I veto myself, Snow will go up instead."

YES! That would explain his flip from Llama being his top scum suspect to wanting to evict me. That's more logical than any explanation I can think of. If Llama flipped scum, I'd lynch pablito automatically.

I'd still have rather lynched pablito before Llama (since pablito has greater ties to ani, as well as some random link with hewitt), though, too late now, I guess.

And perhaps you actually are just "cocky," as you say. The only reason I was pushing you is because I know in your position I wouldn't have imposed my own opinions with my nominations. But then I don't hold my scum-hunting skills in high esteem.

Also, can you explain further why you think saber is town? I tend to buy into random logic spiels and WIFOM-ish arguments more than the average player.

[Crazy]

Crazy - tell me when I was strongly against Llama and then you have a case. But even when I stated that I thought Llama was most likely to be producer, it was by process of elimination and I stated that I wasn't sure on it. For you to spin that now makes me think you're scum because you feel more desperate flailing (as compared to Llama's desperate resignation).

I don't want to talk absolute vs. relative now. Llama was on your list as

most

likely to be a producer. Meaning that there was nobody else that you thought was

more

likely to be a producer than Llama. That's all that really matters.

I was on your list as least likely to be a producer AND least likely to be a chenbot.

That's a major flip, and you can't deny that.

[Crazy]

Crazy - my inclinations were baed off of what Sior and ani said. And I think I was entirely mistaken in my analysis because it's not the most appropriate way to conduct an investigation. I should not solely go off of what Sir and ani said and ignore what you Crazy said.

Therefore I'm not a big fan of my previous analysis, especially since Kmd was supportive of it.

Okay, well, I wasn't a big fan of your original case, either. XD

I gotta think on this.

[Crazy]

Llama's dead.

I'm not expecting anything, but I'm crossing my fingers.

[Crazy]

You PWN, Kmd.

I should have realized - simple logic:

-Llama is never lynched when he is pro-town.
-Thus, lynch him, and he will be scum!

That makes pablito likely scum, probably, but his "If Llama is scum, then you're free to lynch me," kind of trips that up.

I'd

Vote: pablito

and

Vote: SnowBunny

Kast has coup so it's useless nominating him, I don't think Kmd is scum after that, either (I never thought he was a likely chenbot.) As for bv, I'm trusting in Kmd's judgment based on that unknown ongoing game. (Honestly, scum wouldn't lie about something like that.)

[Crazy]

@Crazy-
I don't see how you can possibly ignore Llama's last act:
-Select buddy who is going to be nominated and make him immune to eviction.

That's WIFOM. You could also note that hewitt would be the least likely to nominate pablito. *shrug*

Though yeah, hewitt being scum is a possibility.

[Crazy]

Yeah, I forgot that you basically have complete control.

If Hewitt is his buddy, then selecting him as HoH is the ONLY way his team has a chance.

Yeah, you're definitely right about this.

If Hewitt is not his buddy, then he has no incentive whatsoever to select Hewitt. Doing so lowers his partner's chance of survival from 100% to something less than 100%. Hewitt's likelihood of nominating Pablito (or anyone else) is completely meaningless since Kast will be the one making the nominations.

This has a slight WIFOM factor to it. From a strict, non-psychological standpoint, you're right, but Llama doing this would make hewitt look more scummy as a possible Day 7 lynch.

[Crazy]

Nah, I might be willing to lynch hewitt over pablito... I'm on the fence right now; I just wanted to point out that hewitt isn't totally OMG obv-scum.

Even though, yes, Llama HoHing hewitt does make the most sense if they were scum together. And if they were scum together, Llama

would

pretty much have to HoH him.

[Crazy]

Kast: Using the coup, I become the new HoH and can nominate any two people other than hewitt.

hewitt: Using the coup, you do not become the new HoH. You can only replace one or two of my nominations.

Those two statements mean exactly the same thing.

@hewitt, I believe what Kast was referring to was this:

I expect Snow Bunny to be evicted no matter who Kast replaces for himself.

Which somewhat implies (possibly unintendedly) that Kast can only replace the nomination of himself, rather than either Snowbunny or himself or both.

[Crazy]

Hewitt (hewitt gets a vote since he was dethrowned as HOH)

Actually, this isn't the official rule on the TV Show... when Jeff used the coup to put up Jessie/Natalie, Chima did not get a vote.

And

Vote: Snow

, and

Cross fingers

[Crazy]

So meanwhile, while that circle is a running, Crazy. Do you think you've played a flip-floppy game so far? Do you think that you've changed your views and opinions based on who you think is going to hold the power that week?

Yeah, I always change my mind a lot. You can call it "flip-flopping" if you like, though I don't want it to make it sound like I'm flaky.

I really don't think it's dependent on who's in power, though...

@pablito - I also feel bv as a likely producer, but Kmd essentially promised that bv is nearly confirmed because of another game. So there's a conflict between my own judgment and trusting the judgment of someone who has unknown, potentially solid evidence.

[Crazy]

Yuck, I was worried about that.

Let's see:

-I assume I look more like a producer than a chenbot at this moment, since it's clear that Llama was bussing ani.

-Kmd is unlikely to be a chenbot due to his interactions with Sly and unlikely to be a producer due to his interactions with Llama. I think it's far more likely he's a chenbot than a producer, but he's probably just town.

-I think bv looks like a producer (mainly because of ani). He also looks like a chenbot because it's suspicious that Sly-scum didn't put him up. I think bv is the scummiest player in the game... so I hope Kmd's tell on him is

really, really

good.

-Hewitt has the distinction of replacing someone that Sly nominated, which makes him unlikely Chenbot. Of course, however, he is a very likely producer due to interactions with Llama.

-Pablito probably isn't a chenbot, either, due to him being the only one that really went after Sir to a large degree. There's not much stopping him from being a producer, though.

-Kast is probably not a producer, considering Llama's bold attacks. Could be a chenbot (which would explain why Sly didn't nominate zwet, either), but I'm not sure.

I also want to try to do a little digging to find out what ongoing game Kmd was talking about, to see what makes bv basically confirmed.

[Crazy]

-Hewitt has the distinction of replacing someone that Sly nominated, which makes him unlikely Chenbot. Of course, however, he is a very likely producer due to interactions with Llama.

Oh, and hewitt evicted Sly, lol. How'd I forget about that?

Anyway, I think Kast is the last chenbot, if only for process of elimination... Also, here's some mildly interesting voting history, a day apart between vote counts:

Zwet (1) Kmd4390
Sensfan (3) animorpherv, Crazy, Grandi
Sironigous (1) Zwet
SlySly (3) PaltryExcuse, Snow_Bunny, saberwolf
Paltry (1) DisCode
Discode (1) MrFinch
Kmd (1) Llamafluff

Zwet (1) Kmd4390
Sensfan (2) animorpherv, Grandi
SlySly (5) PaltryExcuse, Snow_Bunny, saberwolf,

Sironigous, Zwet

Paltry (1) DisCode
Discode (1) MrFinch
Kmd (2) Llamafluff, Crazy

Both Sir and Zwet jumped on the Sly wagon in the course of one day? This was also close to deadline... perhaps just a "Woah, we better make sure our buddy gets HoH" thing?

And before zwet was voting Sly... he was voting Sir. Woah.

So for now I'm thinking Kast -> chenbot, hewitt -> producer.

[Crazy]

@Crazy - what's more important to lynch next - producer or chenbot?

Whoever most likely is scum. However, there seems to be more people that could be producers than people that could be chenbots.

[Crazy]

I mean, not logic wise. But I mean, what purpose does it give US for you to analyze yourself right now at this point in the game? You seem to make statements about yourself quite a bit this late in the game and I'm not sure why you do it.

I don't think I make comments about myself for any particular reason at all, other than a sake of completeness, or that time the mod asked a question.

Besides, one sentence in my post isn't making my post any more burdensome to read, so I don't see how it hurts.

[Crazy]

@Kmd - What do you think of Sir and zwet both voting Sly as HoH right near the end?

Is your town read of Kast based just on the fact that he claimed the coup? Or is there more?

And note that this also applies to zwet:

-The only explanation that makes any sense for Sly's D1 choices were a last second reluctance to lynch his buddy. The town was calling for Saber's lynch; Sly was promising Saber's lynch; the only reason to avoid nom'ing Saber (PoV) was claimed and not going to be used on Saber. There is absolutely no reason for Chenbot-Sly to draw so much town attention on himself and make himself the primary candidate for D2 lynch other than to defend his buddy.

[Crazy]

Also, Kmd, has that game that made saber confirmed town completed yet? I'm so anxious to see that.

Interestingly, if me or Kast is scum, and hewitt or pablito is scum, then we can win this game.

Day 7: 6 players left, Pablito puts up me; and I'm lynched. I'm town (obviously. ), and I pick Kmd for the next HoH.

Day 8: 5 players left, Kmd puts up Kast; Kast is lynched.

Day 9: 4 players left, Kmd, bv, hewitt, and pablito. If Kmd or bv is HoH, they evict hewitt/pablito. If hewitt/pablito is HoH, then they must lynch the other one. If they don't, then they're obv-scum for Day 10.

Day 10: 3 players left, this would only occur after a mislynch of either hewitt or pablito. The evicted player (who would be town) would then pick the last HoH. HoH can evicte hewitt/pablito (whichever one is left.)

This plan would only fail under two circumstances:

a. Kmd or bv is scum. This is something I worry about slightly. This is also why I want to know why saber is confirmed-via-Kmd. Also, Kmd could be really crafty scum; if he is, maybe he just deserves this win.

b. Both hewitt and pablito are scum. This could mess with the potential Day 10 HoH. However, I see this being much less likely than (a), since I doubt either hewitt or pablito is a chenbot.

[Crazy]

Unfortunately, it's not even close...

Okay, another question, then... does it make him like 100% confirmed, 98% confirmed, 80% confirmed, or what?

Actually, I love Crazy's plan in 1719. Crazy being evicted is a good chance of hitting Chen. If not, we know it's Kast.

The only way I'm a good chance of being a chenbot is by

process of elimination

, okay? And can you at least give me something and say "it's either Crazy or Kast" rather than saying "If it's not Crazy, it's Kast?"

[Crazy]

@Kmd - How is hewitt confirmed?

[Crazy]

[quote="pablito"]What gets me on Crazy is his failure to scumhunt period. But I'm just not sure. [quote]
That's insulting to me. Didn't you say a while ago that "Crazy was impressing the hell out of me with his asking questions?" And I just gave my opinions of everyone further up this page!

Anyway, the reason I was mad at Kmd earlier today was because it went like this:

Crazy: I think if I'm lynched today and follow through on this plan, we will win...
Kmd: CRAZY, YOU'RE SCUM!

Nobody likes being accused of being scum, but I generally see it as being necessary in a game of mafia. But when I had already offered myself to be lynched, to then call me scum is just rude and just served as a way for Kmd to show his own self-proclaimed "cockiness.".

But now that Kmd has said hewitt is confirmed, (I don't know if he said that before, or if I just missed it) that would change my plan... which would make it better to leave hewitt/bv at the end rather than Kmd/bv. I'm not sure how hewitt is confirmed; that's what I want to know.

@Kast - Are you ignoring that Kmd has proclaimed bv as being confirmed town due to another game? Do you think Kmd is lying scum, or do you think he's over-assuming, or what?

Same question to pablito.

As for me, I'm putting a whole lot of stock into it, because even if Kmd was scum, it really doesn't help him to lie to "clear" other people. The only other question would be his competence, but I have trust in that as well.

As for my plan, if Kast doesn't go along with it, it's pretty useless.

[Crazy]

Hewitt, you're aware that YOU replaced SensFan, right? You basically just admitted to being scum.

It looks like a typo. Sensfan's name was printed directly above SlySly's.

[Crazy]

@Crazy-
I think KMD is wrong. But his insistence that specific players are obvtown/confirmed town/whatever, on reasons that only he sees is typical of his play as both town or scum. I'd wager it more likely town actually since I have seen him deviate from his strong opinions as scum when it would let him win; and in this game, a scum KMD could have easily jumped aboard with what Pablito and I suspect and coast for a guaranteed win. He hasn't done so which makes me less inclined to think he could be scum (although in general his play makes me think he is the most probable townie out of the lot of you).

Why do you think he's wrong?

Do you know what game he's referring to?

[Crazy]

Crazy, you really don't scumhunt much when you're not feeling any pressure. You have scumhunted, but it seems so circumstantial off my memory.

Okay, I can acknowledge that I feel more pressured to scum-hunt when I'm on the chopping block.

[Crazy]

Kmd's alignment is barely relevant to that, Kast. I really don't see what gain Kmd-scum would have by

lying

to make someone that's not part of scum-team be confirmed town.

As I see it, Kmd has information about bv/saber's alignment that I don't... and there's really no motive for him to be lying about it. So why would you choose to ignore it?

My guess is that removing bv from being scum reduces the number of possible chenbots, and you wouldn't want that.

[Crazy]

Meh, Kast, you might have a point, but ignoring it entirely is not a valid option IMO.

I did a search through Kmd's posts to find why he said hewitt was confirmed...

Well. Now we get into the WIFOM part. Why did Llama, as scum, make Hewitt the next HoH? One side says "to protect his scumbuddy from being evicted this round". Well, my arguement is that it implicates Hewitt as Llama's buddy way too much for Llama's taste. I think Llama would know that his choice could very well be suspected as being his buddy. So I think Hewitt is right in the arguement he's so afraid to make that Llama probably tried to frame Hewitt as his buddy.

But unfortunately that isn't true...

If hewitt was Llama's partner, and Llama didn't make him HoH, then there was a very large chance that hewitt would be evicted that day, since Kast had the coup, and would surely nominate him if he could. And if Kast put him up against Kmd I'd guess that hewitt would be evicted. So no, hewitt is not confirmed.

Knowing that now makes me further skeptical of how "confirmed" bv is. Kmd, can you give me a percent chance of bv being scum compared to a percent chance of hewitt being scum? I'm worried, now.

[Crazy]

He's non-producer because Llama made him HoH.

He's non-chen because he evicted Sly. Only possibility left is town.

The former isn't true. If Llama hadn't made hewitt HoH, then Kast would have nominated hewitt for sure. Probably against you, for an easy eviction. Llama almost

had to

make hewitt HoH if they were scum together.

Now the thing is, you say bv and hewitt are confirmed. I disagree with you about hewitt, so that makes me more wary about how "confirmed" bv is.

Can you put a percentage of how "confirmed" hewitt is compared to how "confirmed" bv is?

[Crazy]

Putting a percentage on things like that is a bad idea. You, for example, in the same spot with the same opinion may use a different number than I would. Let me just say this though. If BV isn't town, I will be completely shocked. If Hewitt flips scum, it will be more "ok, I was wrong. whatever". A BV scumflip would be a huge WTF moment for me.

Okay, cool.

Vote: hewitt

[Crazy]

Crazy, your vote was more symbolic since we already clearly know who kast is voting. What do you think of that in terms of timing and all?

I don't think I exactly know what you mean.

I figured I would probably vote hewitt over anyone except for Kast; I just wanted to make sure how certain Kmd was about bv.

[Crazy]

Well just saying that Kmd had already voted hewitt, and we know kast would vote hewitt. So your vote isn't really necessary on hewitt or bv as we know hewitt will be lynched - but yet you still seemed to do your own investigation. Not saying bad or good on it, just interesting of note.

I feel like arguing this, but there's no point. You could have easily said I was an obvious vote for hewitt and Kast's vote really didn't matter. Or really, that all 3 of us were obvious votes for hewitt so none of our votes really mattered!

The only reason I asked Kmd that question about the relation between hewitt and bv before I voted is because I wanted him to answer before hewitt flipped. I probably would have voted hewitt regardless of what Kmd said, since I still am unaware of the outside game with saber.

Also just in terms of cutting timelines, your vote could've been extended and delayed so that we had more time to think things through. But as it is now, next hoh will be crowned within days now. Just wondering what your thoughts are on that process.

That didn't cross my mind, because it's really up to Kast how long he wants the vote to last, but I don't really like to drag things out too much, anyway. Especially now, when there's really not a whole lot I feel like doing before I see hewitt's flip.

I think a lot of people forget that timing of votes is an important part of the process as well - not just who they vote. with unretractable votes, timing is of the utmost difference - like in sironigous' vote for sly.

Is your point that Sir's "quickhammer" made it look too much like a bus? Do you think I'm bussing hewitt?

You already said that my vote didn't matter at all. Why should it matter how I

time

my vote that doesn't matter at all?

[Crazy]

Clearly I'm not Chenbot. And clearly the last remaining Chenbot is either Kast or Kmd.

Probably Kast. If so, then that's awesome, because that means I guessed right at the start of Day 7!

I'm hoping you made me HoH, 'cuz then I could nominate Kast/Kmd, and then as long as pablito votes Kast, then he's evicted.

If Kast is town, I imagine he'd put pablito as HoH, since pablito is the only one who would possibly nominate bv. But then again it really wouldn't matter since only Kmd or me would be able to vote, and we'd most likely vote to evict each other over bv.

If I'm evicted in the Final Four, then I'd make bv HoH in hopes that he'd evict Kmd over pablito.

(And yes, I am totally bored right now. I wonder where Kast is.)

[Crazy]

Nominate: Kast & Kmd

I'll vote for Kast if it's a tie. So unless if both pablito and bv vote for Kmd, Kast is gone.

[Crazy]

BV is the most probable remaining Chenbot. Sly's behavior regarding Saber makes no sense otherwise. The only defense against it so far has been "that's too obvious", but as we can see from the Producers, scum are capable of being very obvious.

The thing is, you could also say that about zwet (maybe to a slightly lesser extent.)

I think Sly was going for what he'd probably do as town... nominate the "tough scum" to get... the same thing that Kmd was trying to do with Paltry and Llama.

My assumption is that Hewitt is hoping for a town loss by adding KMD to the mix. With only 3 lynches, adding KMD to the pool of potential remaining Chenbots means one of the 3 candidates gets out. I would guess he thinks Crazy is the last remaining Chenbot (possible, but much less likely than BV).

He probably just wanted you dead, with all of the arguing between you two... and I bet he thought you were scum.

Aside from that, I was right about Sly, AM, Llama, and Hewitt. I'm 4/4 with picks so far and I knocked that Coup out of the park. You'll find in most games, I'm hesitant when I don't have a strong suspect, and I come down hard when I am right. I'm coming down on BV now, just like the 4 scum before him.

I don't want to lynch bv when Kmd says that he is confirmed town.

And 3/4 of your correct picks were Producers, so that doesn't really mean anything.

Your meta thing about coming down hard on suspects should only apply when you're town... using it saying, "I'm coming down hard on bv, so I can't be scum because then I'd know he was town," doesn't fly.

As for being right about Sly... even

Sir

FoS'ed Sly as early as Dec. 1st, and you didn't replace in until the 14th.

[Crazy]

You realize this makes absolutely ZERO sense, yes?
You only trust BV as a result of trusting KMD. HOWEVER, you would rather lynch KMD over BV?

This stinks of a ploy to get Kast/KMD/BV lynched for a Crazy-Chenbot win.

I trust bv as a result of trusting Kmd's judgment, not of trusting Kmd's alignment.

It doesn't make sense for Kmd-scum to lie about bv being confirmed, because then someone could probably figure out he was lying if they researched enough. And imagine taking that risk for someone that's not even on your scum-team! Ridiculous.

I

am

trusting; however, in Kmd's confidence in that bv is town.

(Kast, if you're that worried that bv is scum, just make Kmd HoH instead of pablito when you die. That would solve the problem of "pablito-can't-be-HoH-twice-in-a-row.")

[Crazy]

KMD-scum would know that BV is town. There is no risk. The rest of your "case" requires this.

There is always risk to lying - and that's possibly being caught. Being caught in this case wouldn't be bv flipping scum; it would be someone searching through past games and then being able to say, "Kmd, you're totally lying; there's no possible game to confirm saber/bv!"

KMD HoH noms Pablito and Crazy. BV votes Pablito. How is that a solution?

In that case bv would be obvscum.

[Crazy]

it would be someone searching through past games and then being able to say, "Kmd, you're totally lying; there's no possible game to confirm saber/bv!"

Try reading that one again. I'll let you pretend you never posted something so mind bogglingly senseless.

So what's your point? That you think Kmd is lying about bv being confirmed?

[Crazy]

Try again.

Yeah, I was aware of that earlier post.

But in that case, you're arguing the wrong points right now. You were just disputing that Kmd is probably telling the truth about bv.

[Crazy]

This is a flawed argument and I pointed out the flaw (

KMD scum might state trust of BV).

Uh, that wouldn't matter if Kmd was scum or not, as long as he had something that confirmed bv.

It also isn't actually an argument for why KMD-town would be correct about BV.

Yes, in which case I was trusting his judgment, because he was showing extreme confidence. Calvin and Hobbes quote: "If you can't win by reason, go by volume."

As for now that it's revealed, yeah, I still agree that bv is almost surely town.

[Crazy]

@Crazy-
You posted an argument that KMD as scum would never say BV is town. This was in parallel with claiming that KMD as town would be trustworthy.

The former claim was false and I showed that it was false. This does not have anything to do with whether I believed KMD was actually lying or not.

Actually, what I said was that Kmd, as scum, would not

lie

in order to confirm bv (as in, make up the whole fact of this "other game.")

[Crazy]

Though, yeah, that really doesn't matter, since now seeing the evidence, you can agree that bv is most likely town.

I presume that makes me your top suspect, but I wouldn't blame you, because I'd think the same thing.

[Crazy]

I will be V/LA for the extended weekend. If my vote is needed as a tiebreaker, consider me voting for Kast.

[Crazy]

I'm back.

No need to wait, bv, I'll vote Kast even if you vote Kmd.

[Crazy]

Fun game... I was actually more correct this game than I usually am. I especially love how my wild guess Day 3 about Kast being a Chenbot was awesome (even though I ended up losing faith in that until the end).

If it was up to me, though, I don't think I'd have ever guessed that Llama was scum.

Sly... why didn't you nominate saber Day 1?

[Crazy]

Interesting. So, in reality, you were evicted for being

too pro-town!

Interesting because you were right about Llama and hewitt, and we were right for evicting you, but we were wrong on the reasons that we evicted you!

[Besides the point, I still think Sens' replacing-out was entirely irrelevant to him being scum.]

Also amusing is that the main reason I suspected ani (and that Paltry did, too, I think) was his illogical attack on Sens, and then Sens ended up being his scum-partner!

The other interesting thing is how Kast and hewitt fit the typical roles of "two townies at each others throats," and yet, neither of them were town! And it took the town until the end of the game to fully realize that.

This game has really renewed my interest in mafia... and it also makes me wish there was a real Reality TV Show based on mafia. For it to be interesting to a general audience, it would probably have to fit the rule of "you have to survive to win," which was thematically implemented here, but I don't think anybody took that seriously.