Perfectionist Mafia - Resultas

[manho]

i'm replacing Deuxieme Octopus, will read the thread soon.

@almightybob, no counterclaim from me.

[manho]

i've just finished up to page 5, how slow i am.

SW is definitely scum-buddy with BC, at least up to page 5.

will continue the read tomorrow.

[manho]

reading up to page 13, and i'll have no time to read/post until tomorrow morning, in my time zone.

SW is still the scum up to page 13 and i'm wondering why he had not been lynched yet before page 13. saber was scumhunting and was pro-town, but he was scumhunting and seemed pro-town in my last game with him where he turned out SK. sanjay is pro-town. gut-feeling for the followings: mufasa-town, xreckonerx-scum, AlmightyBob-scum, dram-scum, mrsuave-town. neutral for the remainings.

[manho]

@cookie: that's a spoiler!!! you should put it in the spoiler tag!!!

[manho]

finished reading up to n2 ended.

SW is scum. the roleclaim is faked. SW even said he expect a second cop to save himself from a possible counterclaim. and BC said he would skip the analysis and claim cop, probably implying he didn't know SW's claim but his claim is accidentally the same with SW's. why didn't BC just counterclaim cop to save himself and got SW lynched? BC even didn't attempt to vote SW. i don't see why a godfather not trying to get a claimed cop lynched, unless they are indeed scum-buddy.

vote: SW

will continue my read tomorrow.

[manho]

sanjay is pro-town. gut-feeling for the followings: mufasa-town, xreckonerx-scum, AlmightyBob-scum, dram-scum, mrsuave-town

6 questions. Why, why, why, why, why and why?

I agree with your read on sanjay, but that's about it.
Mufasa hadn't done anything to make me think he was particularly Town on D1, Reck has seemed pretty Town to me the whole game, I'm obvTown, dramonic has seemed neutralish and MrSuave hasn't said enough to go either way.

sanjay was contributing a lot and really scumhunting. and i had stated the reasons for the others, that is gut feeling.

i will give a more detailed analysis after finishing the reading.

[manho]

finally finish the reading.

SW is scum, and i have stated the reason in my last post and his day 2 action doesn't change my stance.

reck is scum, and the case will follow soon.

mufasa is our vig unless zoneace counterclaim.

mrsuave is not necessary scum, as scum need only target mufasa and (starbuck or MME). it shouldn't be a matter why mufasa was targetted by the redirector as it is clearly the fact.

the traitor is helpness, didn't have any power, and even don't know who they need to support.

[manho]

BC's claim is obviously bullshit. Can we just lynch him please.

BC's claim is just the same as SW's claim. so why is reck so sure that SW is telling the truth while BC isn't?

I'm going to take a leap here and assume that Snow White's claim is legitimate, since BC faked his claim. Snow White, do you have results? I'm also gonna go ahead and pre-emptively say Sposh is NOT the lynch for today since BC was voting him, and I don't think he was bussing.

there are just too many assumptions.

Ninja'd. Also, I support the idea of lynching Suave and then using that to determine Mufasa's alignment... though it might be quicker just to lynch Mufasa and get the scum that way =P

so SW is definitely town but Mufasa is definitely scum? they both claimed to be a power role.

The players alive that haven't posted since Mufasa claimed:

Remplacement of DeathNote, Santos, Deuxieme Octopus, MrSuave

drunk epiphanies ftw!

what was The point of Really showing us this, exactly? Are you trying to appear townie? I think you are just trying to appear townie without being pro-town. Tell me: do you think this is really gonna solve anything? OR what? please, let me know... im dying to hear.

there is nothing wrong in sanjay's quote. seems trying to get a mislynch here.

Vote: MrSuave

L-2?

the mod has just given the answer to reck's question, but he ignore the answer and vote mrsuave, who is not necassary the scum with the mod's answer.

in conclusion, reck has a clear bias on SW being town and BC being scum in day 1, which is a clear bussing on BC and defending SW at the same time. and in day 2, he pushed a mufasa lynch, even after mufasa claim vig. and he also pushed a mrsuave lynch, which clearly is not today's best lynch.

[manho]

note that my case is a bit based on SW being scum, so my vote is still on SW and if he flip scum, reck is the other scum.

[manho]

does anyone think i should give a case on SW?

[manho]

i've seen scum counterclaiming each other. and don't you think it is a good tactic? one of the scum will be "confirmed". and with the third scum pushing the lynch hard and become "confirmed", they can surely win the game.

[manho]

it may not be a plan, but accidentally become it. both BC and SW are scummy in most of our eyes, so when one is lynched, the other is likely to be the lynch in day 2. that may be the reason why the godfather sacrificing himself.

and godfather may not be the most powerful one. he has only one chance to recruit the traitor, and with the sane/insane cops, showing town in investigation may just be another confusion. roleblocker and redirector will be more useful in later game when someone has roleclaimed.

[manho]

i think most of you are convinced SW is scum, as you had nearly lynched SW in day 1. so i'll start my case on SW from the point SW claim.

Case on SW:

Im town cop. Yay!!! Oh wait no... outted town cop. Oh noes!

Ironically this probably explains the over use of emoticons at the beginning of this game. But hey! Any non believers. Lynch me and lets find out! :devil: But frankly anyone who puts any further votes on me should probably be looked at before the community can get their say.

i really can't see why a cop would say "lynch me and lets find out!".

BTW. im aware there is likely one other cop out there as my sanity is not assured.

the "sanity is not assured" is already stated in the possible role PM. and i don't see why it is likely to have another cop out there. and we can have back up cop. i think SW state it to avoid counter claim from the real cop.

Eep! Plan was to investigate Wicked... someone who i thought had a higher likelihood of being innocent and going from that as my sanity, provided he turned up innocent. If he was guilty i was then going to wait till night2 if i lived so long as to pick someone else i considered highly innocent or highly scum and then work off that. Complicated! But then again so is this role tbh. :/

so what's the use to tell us your plan? and the plan will fail if you are insane. wicked will show up guilty if you are insane, and you will lose your power then. read the possible role PM in the first page clearly before fake-claiming next time.

No. I have been told nothing of if or either there are two cops. So far as to say i am only aware of my own existance as cop. No one elses. But generally i find that when sanity is called into question there are usually two cops. And why did i say this? In case of a potential CC by another living cop whose managed to keep hopefully under the radar. Honesty is always the best policy.

and he explicitly ask cop not to counterclaim him.

I explained why i thoguht there was another cop. My first game of mafia i played as cop on another forum. We were all a bunch of newbs so when one cop claimed wasnt i surprised and somewhat disbelieving because i was cop too. But town lynched the girl who roleclaimed cop and whaddya know she flipped "insane bulletproof cop". So frankly id rule nothing out... again thats the second game played in my wiki.

no, you are not saying "i didn't rule out the chance that there may be another cop", you said "there is likely another cop".

Id prefer an Octo lynch today seeing as he immediately jumped on with a vote to BC despite BC claiming cop which as i stated i find perfectly liable.

why are those people believing role claims so easily.

We dont need rash votes at a time like this. I highly dislike this when we still have a few more days left no?

a few more days left before deadline is when town need to decide who to lynch. i think you dislike this as the 2 leading wagon are both in your scum team.

@BC. You were such a far more active cop in Mafia97 and Kubrik. Your play here is significantly different. Any particular reason? Dont get me wrong, i have gotten a prodiminantly good gut vibe from you this game too. But thats gut and ive never seen you play as scum. Any links?

but you said you believe the claim. why ask for further support for his claim? seems like coaching.

Im inclined to believe BC however because he had the same "slip" i had in calling myself cop instead of "Town Detective". How very la dee da. If he'd been scum he'd have read over the slack i was getting for calling myself cop.

BC just said he is cop. if BC has read SW's claim, he should have said "i'm also a cop". so BC hasn't read SW's claim, or he appear to not having read the claim.

Im not being bullied into squat diddly by either one of you and if town stupidly want to lynch both people claiming cop well then i was never really going to be much help to town anyway to a town so dense.

that is appeal to emotion. mind you that you can't do anything to "help town" if you are lynched anyway.

BC: You're at L-2 with about 4 days to go before deadline. Claim ASAP please.

I take it you'd like me to skip my analysis and previous questions asked? And just claim?

I'm a cop.

here is BC's claim. it is obvious that he try to seems not having read SW's claim, as i said before.

-Snow, if you're the cop, why didn't you vote me?

and why didn't BC vote SW?

- A no lynch is out of the question. I would rather you lynch me, than no one.

and BC is sacrificing himself to save SW.

If SW is really the cop, BC should have voted SW to save himself. i really can't find reason for scum not to push for another's wagon, especially when he has the valid reason, in that BC "is" the real cop. BC didn't even vote SW. BC is likely to be investigated if SW was lynched, and BC is the godfather, so the chance for BC to be "confirmed" is high if SW is lynched instead. framing? i don't think so.

[manho]

BC are trying to look not to have SW's claim, based on the wording in his claiming post.

BC: You're at L-2 with about 4 days to go before deadline. Claim ASAP please.

I take it you'd like me to skip my analysis and previous questions asked? And just claim?

I'm a cop.

i don't believe he would miss it. and he should have acknowledged SW's claim in his claim, but he didn't. he even said he had skip his analysis and previous questions asked, probably implying he had also skipped SW's claim.

[manho]

my last post is directed to this post. missed a whole page again.

manho, are you arguing that BC did not read SW's claim before making his own? I find that very implausible.

[manho]

responding the prod, but don't have anything to add.

i still see SW is scum with BC.

[manho]

@mod: V/LA until 20/11

will look at dramonic when i have time.

[manho]

back from V/LA

this game is really fast, i left for a week and 6 player died, almost one per day. need some time to reread the thread.

[manho]

cop-SW was roleblocked and vig-mufasa was redirected, so our last 2 scums are roleblocker and redirector, right?

let's analyse the vote count: (i'll assume for all mislynch there exist a scum in the wagon)

D1: although BC was the lynch, SW was nearly lynched:

Vote Count - 11!

9 Votes:

Snow White

(

My Milked Eek, saberwolf, AlmightyBob

, Deuxieme Octopus,

Mufasa

,

Starbuck

, Faerie Lord,

Wickedestjr

, dramonic)

scums are in {manho (replaced DO), FL, dramonic}

End Of Day Has Been Reached

10 Votes

BloodCovenent

- 10 (EtherealCookie,

xRECKONERx

,

Sposh, saberwolf, starbuck, wickedestjr

, DeuxiemeOctopus, Santos,

almightybob

, FaerieLord)

this is not a mislynch but i can see scum jump into it late when the lynch is inevitable. also, i don't believe scum-cookie will stay on the godfather wagon for the whole day 1.
scums are in {manho (replaced DO), Santos, FL}

8 Votes:

Sposh

(EtherealCookie,

saberwolf

,

xRECKONERx

, Sanjay,

AlmightyBob

,

mufasa

,

elvis_knits

, FaerieLord)

scums are in {cookie, sanjay, FL}

Vote Count:

Snow White

: (

Snow White

, Sanjay, MrSuave,

Mufasa

,

xRECKONERx

, Santos) + After hammer (dramonic)

scums are in {Sanjay, MrSuave, Santos, dramonic}

as i know i'm not the scum, FL is the scum or (dramonic, santos, (cookie/sanjay) are all scum).

vote: FL

note that the conclusion is true if my assumation is true.

other analysis coming when i have time.

[manho]

It's nice to have the data here, though I am seriously headscratching that you don't really seem as interested in the people off the BC wagon (me, Mufasa, dramonic, MrSuave) as the people that jumped on it late.

Is there a reason why you think being on the wagon but late is more suspicious than being off the wagon?

As for the power roles of the last two mafia, I think your assessment of the situation is probably off. If you had a roleblocker and a redirector, wouldn't the better choice be to redirect investigations instead of roleblock them? You could basically turn the cop paranoid or naive. That gives away less information and more misinformation.

I think what more likely is that Snow White was roleblocked by the serial killer. Which is good, because A) the town is quite likely out of powerroles to block now anyway and B) it means there is the potential for cross-killing.

What do you think about this possibility? Had you thought about it before this post?

my mind really didn't work right yesterday. i still think a scum would jump on the BC wagon, although there is likely a scum not on it. i would say 1 on it and 1 off it, so we also have scum in {sanjay, dramonic, MrSuave}.
and our SK may have the roleblocking power, right. so we now have a redirector so sure and another scum with unknown power, right?

@Manho. Reread the votes in context. Both the votes for Sposh and BC were for one reason.
To lynch SW the next day. Granted I was wrong about SW, but I never pushed either of those wagons/

i'll read the exact vote in context when i have time. but you are now saying that you hammer others to get SW lynched? there is no logic in it, although i was also wrong about SW.

as i know i'm not the scum, FL is the scum or (dramonic, santos, (cookie/sanjay) are all scum). vote: FL

How did you get to that conclusion? I honestly cannot follow your logic

i assume that there exist a scum in each mislynch wagon, and from that assumption, i deduce that FL is the scum or (dramonic, santos, (cookie/sanjay) are all scum). i vote you as you have the highest chance to be the scum.

[manho]

assume that there exist a scum in each mislynch wagon, and from that assumption, i deduce that FL is the scum or (dramonic, santos, (cookie/sanjay) are all scum). i vote you as you have the highest chance to be the scum.

That is such a horrible assumption. There could exist one or two.
That's like me saying "I can assume that there are scum amongst us, and from that assumption I shall vote: x"

You're just stretching to try and find a reason to vote for someone to seem opinionated

read the post where i voted you. i've stated clearly the flow of the deduction.
there is scum in the set {FL, dramonic}
there is scum in the set {FL, santos}
there is scum in the set {FL, cookie, sanjay}
and there is scum in the set {Sanjay, MrSuave, Santos, dramonic}
if you(FL) is not the scum, then dramonic, santos, and (cookie or sanjay) had to be the 3 scums, which is really unlikely.
so i voted you.

i'll read the exact vote in context when i have time. but you are now saying that you hammer others to get SW lynched? there is no logic in it

Said the guy that came up with that beautiful assumption.
Of course it makes sense
Lynch a town to get a scum tomorrow
1 scum > 1 town
It's easy percentages

but why not try to lynch the scum first?

[manho]

read the post where i voted you. i've stated clearly the flow of the deduction.
there is scum in the set {FL, dramonic}
there is scum in the set {FL, santos}
there is scum in the set {FL, cookie, sanjay}
and there is scum in the set {Sanjay, MrSuave, Santos, dramonic}
if you(FL) is not the scum, then dramonic, santos, and (cookie or sanjay) had to be the 3 scums, which is really unlikely.
so i voted you.

Yes, but again. You're assuming a scum per wagon.
That's a big assumption.

In addition, even if an assumption is true, that doesn't mean it's built on correct premises. For example, I'm going to assume there is scum in the game. Therefore, I'll vote: x. My assumption is correct, but that does not mean that its a solid argument.

Also, I'm pretty sure we have by now concluded that there aren't 5 scums, due to the nature of the PMs. Yet you are assuming 5 scums BC, reckoner, dramonic, santos and {cookie or sanjay}. So obviously, it's really unlikely. It's pretty much false. Only two of those could be scum simultaneously.

forgot that BC is scum and we have two left. so we can't have those 3 all scum, and so you must be scum. my argument is valid and your example is invalid. and if you find my argument invalid, please give solid reasons instead of making irrelevance counter example.

i'll read the exact vote in context when i have time. but you are now saying that you hammer others to get SW lynched? there is no logic in it

Also, again you have obviously not yet seen the nature of the votes on BC and Sposh. Both were hammers in order to get to next day and lynch SW, so arguing that I was on the wagon is a pretty horrible argument.

i don't know the correct defination of "wagon", but you are among the people voting SW, BC... and my assumption is about who is voting but not who is on the wagon. and obviously you were voting those people.

but why not try to lynch the scum first?

Because the rest wanted to lynch the other first and it's a majority rule to lynch?

if the people voting cannot make a lynch, it is not majority. note that we need more than half of the whole town to get someone lynched.

[manho]

welcome zwet, can you confirm the action taken by mufasa at night?

[manho]

forgot that BC is scum and we have two left. so we can't have those 3 all scum, and so you must be scum. my argument is valid and your example is invalid. and if you find my argument invalid, please give solid reasons instead of making irrelevance counter example.

So you now change from "really unlikely" to "can't have those 3 all scum"

read the "forgot that BC is scum" in the quote.

And you're still assuming. That's a solid reason

an argument is valid if the premises(assumption) imply the conclusion, and there is no counter example for the premises to be true while the conclusion is false. "you're still assuming" is not a solid reason for proving my arugment is false. also, "you're still assuming" is not a solid reason to prove my assumption is unlikely, maybe you need some solid data to prove my assumption false.

...
You know what...screw this.
I'm bored repeating.

Enjoy your vote

i'm also bored repeating, and i enjoy my vote.

[manho]

Well, no masonry in this game then, unless FL and Manho are having serious mason issues XP

ah, forgot it. i'm not in a mason.

[manho]

i thought i had answered it long ago, maybe only in my mind or dream.

[manho]

@sanjay, i still have sanjay-town, zwet(mufasa)-town, dram-scum, mrsuave-town, the others are more-or-less neutral.

[manho]

i'm busy with final exam these days, and forgot to check this thread.

and i'm at L-2 now?

@sanjay, i still have sanjay-town, zwet(mufasa)-town, dram-scum, mrsuave-town, the others are more-or-less neutral.

obviously i have neglected the others in that quote, really was lazy at that time to read the others and what "the others" includes.

i'd add to my list that FL-scum, santos and cookie neutral.

Well, so far, I see manho is scum for ignoring zwet :p

but zwet is our vig, so what can i do to him?

[manho]

actually, i found FL being pro-town recently. my reason for voting him is not really about his scumminess, but his vote.

so,

unvote, vote:dramonic

. he is really scummy.

[manho]

actually, i found FL being pro-town recently. my reason for voting him is not really about his scumminess, but his vote.

so,

unvote, vote:dramonic

. he is really scummy.

Yeah, that's kind of why I'm voting for you, manho.

Why not vote dramonic before?

as i found FL scummier before, but dramonic scummier now.

[manho]

dramonic is probably active lurking. his iso is full of one-liner. and he is not on the BC-wagon...

[manho]

FraerieLord wagon for the win?

and the wagon finally start after i unvote him.

[manho]

FL at L-1 and me at L-2.

unvote, vote: FL

back to the wagon for the win. but dramonic is still scum.

[manho]

finally the final exams finish and i still think dram is scum.

will reread the thread tomorrow.

[manho]

I've been busy with finals, sorry.
Honestly, atm, I'm not liking Manho. The manho I saw during a game while he was playing was very pursuing of who he thought was scum. Also, I did not like how he jumped on to the FaerieLord bandwagon. It seemed very opportunistic. I don't know why nobody else has considered it as a possible busing.

With that in mind:

Vote:Manho

i was attacking SW and reck hard when i replaced in. and i was the first one to vote FL, but the bandwagon start after i unvote, so i have reasons to hammer and that's not jumping wagons.

[manho]

the thread is too long for a complete reread, and i give up after reading the first 10 pages. skimming through the rest and i think dram is the last scum and cookie is the SK. sanjay is too pro-town is be mafia, but he may be the SK. MrSuave is not the SK as he didn't really defend himself when there are votes on him.

[manho]

manho is scum or SK,, weither you want to believe me or not. Surprised he hasnt hammered me yet. Then again, it would reveal him when I flip townie.

the other killer out there should seriously consider shooting him down if they want any chance at winning.

you are at L-1 now?

[manho]

it's baseless.
Manho just popped in one day saying I was very scummy, without any other explanation.

call it gut.

and i won't hammer with my gut feeling so.

[manho]

actually no,

vote: dramonic

, and that's the hammer.

[manho]

No, no, no! I didn't mean Mufasa, I meant MrSuave! Ugh, I forgot who I sent in to investigate!

Don't lynch me guys. Pleeeaase.

so, MrSuave is not the SK?

[manho]

forgot to quote this

There is certainly a SK because I am Sigmund Freud.

I thought it'd be a good time to claim, since all I can do is investigate the vig and SK, and I already used my investigation on Mufasa and got it wrong on N1 so now I'm powerless.

But at least we know there is a SK!

[manho]

vote: cookie

It seemed very opportunistic, that bandwagon jump, and I'm not buying the "I jumped off the bandwagon and then thought I'd get back on" bullcrap.

i was not jumping off and on the bandwagon. i vote FL based on theory that there is a scum on each mislynch wagon, but then shift to a dramonic vote based on gut. they are both scums in my mind so i was going to vote both.

[manho]

Also, somewhat less sure, I don't think manho is the SK. manho claimed here to have been absent from the thread for day 2 and 3, and we still had twilight kills both those days. He could have been lying about that, but I'm inclined to believe he was not, especially since he was totally gone from the site during that period.

[manho]

yes, i know it is not a great prove for me, but just something that worth noting.

[manho]

but scum need to find the SK and lynch him, so scum's comment on SK is worth noting.

[manho]

it doesn't matter it is the scum that i was quoting. the thing that matter is the content, that i was in V/LA and the SK still make 2 kills. i know that the SK can send in future kills, but 2 future kills in a week V/LA? i really didn't expect day 3 end so early.

and look at day 5 kill on sanjay. i have sanjay in my town list for a really long time. why would i kill sanjay if i need the mafia die to win?

and you've read sanjay's quote that he thought i'm not the SK. if you are scum, who do you want to keep alive more than the one who thought you are town? i would have killed the confirmed town one instead.

and i'm scum for what reasons?

[manho]

From my perspective, the SK is definitely in the very small set

{EtherealCookie, dramonic}

. If you aren't me or any of those peeps, it is in the set

{EtherealCookie, dramonic, Sanjay}

.

just for your reference that cookie has a much greater incentive to kill sanjay. this is directed to MrSuave only.

[manho]

and look at day 5 kill on sanjay. i have sanjay in my town list for a really long time. why would i kill sanjay if i need the mafia die to win?

Uhm. Because mafia can be lynched, and you want to take down a pro-town player?

forgot that dram was supposed to be the last mafia and the SK need not kill the mafia. so cookie is right that the SK should take down a pro-town player.

and you've read sanjay's quote that he thought i'm not the SK. if you are scum, who do you want to keep alive more than the one who thought you are town? i would have killed the confirmed town one instead.

I don't understand.

if you, cookie, is the SK, of course you are, and sanjay said you are definitely not the SK, would you kill him? i know that the WIFOM thing is involved here, but sanjay would definitely vote cookie and i can get a win if i let sanjay alive, this is much better than using WIFOM as a defence.

and i'm scum for what reasons?

Voting pattern, and the fact Mr.Suave is confirmed town due to our Sigmuend Frued or whatever.

the question is directed to MrSuave. and you don't need to add in a "reason"-"voting pattern" as you are sure i'm SK if you are townie, and i'm sure you are SK for the reason that MrSuave is not the SK.

[manho]

actually, when I've played scum I kept the anti me people around untill I could safly dispose of them. otherwise it traces back to me. but you know what. I'm going to go ahead and end this game full of shinanigans. cookie has convinced me enough.

vote: manho

*sigh* if I screwed the town, that's my bad D:

there is no use keeping anti-you people alive! they won't change their mind and will vote you no matter what!

i really hope that i am the SK. i can kill you and get the win easily.

[manho]

i will discard the "WIFOM" tell in my future games. scum using WIFOM is too risky. the cost (losing a player supporting you) is much greater than the gain (player originally not supporting you change his mind).