Left 4 Dead Mafia - Day 6?

[Amished]

/unconformist

But I'm ready to play.

Vote: almightybob

Didn't like your reaction to the vote.

[Amished]

Pfft, I don't waste time catching scum.

[Amished]

Hrmph, didn't carry over.

Vote: almightybob

[Amished]

@Doc: I lynch it, obv.

[Amished]

EBWOP: Why are you voting for a scumhunter? Afraid of me?

[Amished]

OHHHH, I get it now..

/facepalm

[Amished]

Any particular reason, Dizzy?

[Amished]

Perhaps the PR doesn't want to use their own power that night if what they pick up is more powerful.

i.e. a Tracker would want to use a Cop's PR rather than their own more often than not; or a Doctor not seeing an obvious target or something like that where a cop investigation would be more beneficial. Heck, a cop that just outed themselves having a bulletproof vest or something is pretty good as well. I don't think there's any way we can really know the alignment of a person just by if they go for items or not.

[Amished]

Unvote
Vote: Ifrinn

I'm pretty sure I know what Socrates is talking about and that's better than my reaction vote.

[Amished]

@Socrates: Nelly seems to be more concerned with being right about a townie. A fellow scum would have a vested interest one way or another (bussing for town-cred or defending to keep the person alive). Reads as a SK almost.

Doesn't look town in any case; since the last time I called somebody an SK they were just scum =\

tl; dr version: Teammate of Ifrinn would have something to say after this much discussion. Reads as another form of scum (SK or alternate scumgroup)

[Amished]

He wants to know our (Anon/me) opinions on your lack of acknowledging the Ifrinn case.

[Amished]

This is gonna be kinda long winded and probably in a couple circles, so you're forewarned.

In any situation: Nelly-town would be best off to comment on anything to explain his thoughts/line of reasoning. He's not so from here on I'll be assuming nelly-scum

If Ifrinn is town in single-scum setup: Nelly would know that Ifrinn is town and could either start a mislynch or defend a townie for bonus points.

If Ifrinn is scum in single-scum setup: Nelly could buss for town-cred or defend to save a partner from a veiled attack. (Or ignore it and see which way gains more steam so he can have the more accepted opinion later on, but it's better to take a stand and just go with it as scum)

If Ifrinn is town or opposite alignment scum in multi-scum, Nelly wouldn't really know Ifrinn's alignment; but could take a risk and defend or attack depending on a personal read as he's scumhunting anyways.

If Ifrinn is scumbuddies with Nelly in multi-scum: defending is much more important as the numbers aren't there to buss as freely.

So it doesn't make sense for Nelly to ignore pretty much half of the serious game as town, and it doesn't make sense for Nelly to ignore an attack on a scumbuddy in multi-scum. It can make sense if they're partners in single-scum; but I think it makes the most sense in multi-scum; where Nelly and Ifrinn aren't aligned.

[Amished]

Not really as Ifrinn was just as much a topic of debate as DeathNote (or possibly even more). You made it a priority to comment on DeathNote probably being town (now for admittedly skimmed reasons), but you didn't comment on Ifrinn.

[Amished]

-snip-

How does this compare to DocPotter, who has been more active than Nelly and has consistently talked AROUND the Ifrinn issue, and has yet to give a stance on it, despite me directly asking him?

I was initially going to say that DP just didn't see it and was waiting for an explanation before deciding if it was a scumtell; but with Doc's last post it has me much more on edge cause now that more people are weighing in against Ifrinn Doc decided to hop on without really knowing what it's about.

[Amished]

@Socrates: Similar, but not exactly what I saw. At first I thought I was seeing a power role ("How dare you think that there's no power" type of tone) but PR's are stupid enough to out themselves so brashly. That, as well as the coddling of Charlie ("I don't get what you're saying here") coupled with the attack ("minus town points") both don't add up to a PR.

They wouldn't be hostile to the fact that there's people without power roles, and certainly not calling out somebody on not being a PR. Finally, a PR wouldn't attack somebody for rolefishing when they'd be so obvious that they were. The only people that fake a PR with this type of aggression are scum in my book.

[Amished]

I actually agree that the person shouldn't claim, but I think that maybe collectively we should choose a target for whoever has it, if we know what it does. Obviously there's a strong chance that the player won't listen, but I don't think that it does any harm.

Also, hi Tar!

Cute: the only way we find out what it does is to have whoever gets it tell us.

[Amished]

@Pom: Flavor can go multiple ways: Bile sends all the lesser horde to one place so it could be a massive bus-driver; roleblocker (can't get through all the mini-horde); vig (that many horde is hard to stop); or just cause a post restriction (since it blinds).

[Amished]

Hey Tarhalindur. You must be the dude who made the set of "standard scumtells" found in the wiki. I suppose it is a kind of a privilege to play mafia with you

Anyway, I'm kinda disappointed that you attacked me based on my first post.

I asked myself after posting that, :"Is this scummy?"

and I found myself answering "No." I'm learning new stuff as I play! (For the record this is my fourth game of online mafia, first ever non-newbie game)

Ruh?

[Amished]

@jmj: Who's your top suspect?

@Charlie: Why did you feel it necessary to state that you reread your posts for scumminess, do you/have you always done that?

@Glork: 1) Welcome to the dark side

2) I don't really understand Tar's viewpoint of the game either. He's not one to go for the easy targets and both Charlie and DN seem to fall under that category. Coupled with putting more effort into a case against charlie but voting for DN gives me the creeps too.

[Amished]

I was kind of pondering if Ifrinns other half is going to have something to say. He said that we'd be able to differentiate them two by one of them posting in *something* type way.

I looked through all the Ifrinn posts, and not one of them isn't in asterisks. Is he ever going to have something to say?

I might be wrong on that, so don't hold it against me.

The other half could be just talking in their QT and the ** is the representative so that we have the same posting style to look at. Either way, it doesn't matter as long as we're getting something from the slot; unlike you.

When are you not going to follow other people with your suspicions? You've voted for DN when he was getting flak and now Ifrinn when they're getting votes.

Heck, ISO 15 looks more like Socrates is scum as well for pushing an anti-town plan but your vote goes on Ifrinn (since they both advocate plans of a certain select group of people grabbing the item) but doesn't bother to be suspicious of Soc at all ever.

[Amished]

I did ISO you and your reasons for voting don't make sense given the context of the game. Socrates clearly had a similar plan (and now that we know how the item mechanic works won't work) for having (a) certain person(s) grab an item. You attack Ifrinn for it while you don't really mention Soc bringing up said plan; and instead agree with him about Ifrinn being scum.

Explain yourself better; or come up with your own ideas that aren't you being scummy.

Unvote

Now that I actually had time to read more of this game and catch the subtleties I'm not liking the Ifrinn wagon as much.

[Amished]

Ok, Soc. I've read the entire thread over and, yes, regarding post 69, I began to ponder over Ifrinn myself. I'm definitely thinking about placing my vote on him. He kind of rubs me the wrong way in thinking that we should decide on who grabs for an item based on whom we think is the most innocent.

Ponder the theory that if the scum decide to push a couple of their guys into grabbing the item, and let the town go for it, they will have atleast a 50% chance of nailing our guy with the item, assuming they didn't destroy it themselves. It appears to me, that he's trying to set up a plan to benefit himself and the rest of the scum.

So for that reason, I've decided to
vote: ifrinn

Bolding mine.

How is what you've said (the bolded) about Ifrinn different than Socrates'

If we all agree on one player to get the item (say, someone who is a big question mark to the town) then we get a useful tool for determining that persons alignment.

Say we give someone a gun and then tell them to shoot someone else. We can confirm a townie and get a bonus lynch from that, and if they can't, we have a likely scum on our hands. (yea yea, watch out for a role blocker, I know.)

suggestion? They both want to have limited people (in Soc's case, 1) go for the item to help the town. This seems to be your only tangible point against Ifrinn, and it's equally "damning" of Socrates. Yet you wagon *with* Soc *against* Ifrinn. I don't see why (with your claimed reason for suspicion) that they're any different to you.

[Amished]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday the 22nd

[Amished]

Back from V/LA.

Vote: thatguy00

Solely for the dichotomy of voting between Socrates and Ifrinn. Having that weak ass "oh, ifrinn has done other things that are scummy" (paraphrased) addendum without actually bringing up any points leads me to believe that he's scum.

I'll take a look at jmj; but I'm positive that thatguy is scum and is where my vote will stay unless I see something equally as scummy from jmj.

[Amished]

@Starbuck: My ISO 21 is my main point against thatguy. Calls Ifrinn scum and Socrates town for essentially the same reason for both (it's the same thing that you called a nice find in post 331).

Also, after

@bv130: I am still rereading and making notes. My rereads go me reading the wholr topic at a glance, then reading it in detail, then isoing everyone, so it takes me a while.

followed by

@everyone: I have never been very good at going and pulling information from many pages of info, unless I have something specific to look for. So, ask me questions and I will answer them.

coupled with

Concerning Charlie and his comment:
That had to be one of the stupidest comments to make. To me, that seems like a huge scum-slip.

(only scum can be stupid? Riiiight)

and that's pretty much jmj in full.

Unvote
Vote: jmj3000

[Amished]

Talk about convenient timing... Jesus

[Amished]

Gah, Furry, I barely recognize you when you post like that.

@Socrates: I think Tar summed up bv nicely last page; though if he's that chronic of a lurker I would've expected tar to bring it up as my main experience with town-tar is that he generally looks at a meta for an overall supertell; and lack of posts by bv would show up over the number of games that I expect tar to look at.

@jmj: Then state what you agree with or disagree with for each wagon. If you're "not sure", then say what is holding you back from voting. As is, we got nothing to look at for accurately gauging your read on the game.

[Amished]

Sorry about the weekend absence; definitely wasn't planning on that.

Here's my catchup on the last 3 pages or so:

@Glork: My vote on jmj is due to the fact that I think he's scum and needs to be lynched. I'm advocating for that.

re my interaction with thatguy00: I was trying to figure out what the hell he was thinking. I can't figure it out without asking him.

jmj's laziness and relying on others for his defense in 417 is uninspiring.

Not really feeling Izzy as scum. Not sure why Furry jumped on bv and then off so quickly to vote for Izzy.

Glork's 464 (asking Pom for top suspects, and *pairings*) is intentionally leading and scummy.

That pretty much catches me up; but one last question:

@Glork: Since I'm "still scum"; what do you make of me voting for the person that you just put to L-1? And doing so before a bandwagon really built steam while you hop on at the end for a claim? I haven't specifically checked, but I didn't see you talking about jmj much just from memory.

[Amished]

@Glork: I was pretty sure that thatguy is scum (and not much has changed, just other people have come up more recently).

Also, it's more the "why/how do you think they're paired" part of your question that I disagree with. It both implies inside knowledge (one scum group if they're all paired) and allows an avenue to discredit her in the future if she thinks that somebody is paired and one of them flips town; even if she's right about the other one.

[Amished]

I thought you were talking about my advocating of jmj's lynch with what you've called in a scummy manner (tone/timing/whatever else you said) and not thatguy's.

Regarding my questions to Pom:
1) I don't understand how "do you think your top suspects are likely to be scumbuddies" implies any kind of knowledge about the game. I would love for you to explain this.
2) I was trying to get a feel for how critically Pom thinks about player suspicions in early-game. Her response was appropriate, and it gave me the information I wanted to know.
3) Regarding the "discredit" point, I don't see how that's relevant. Saying that two players could PLAUSIBLY be scum together does not mean that they are either both town or both scum. There is no avenue for discredit.

1) If Pom is town (which is my current read of her) then it's setting up a way for her to... trip herself up unnecessarily (not the wording I want, but you get the drift, hopefully). It forces her to look for connections when there might not even be any (and still have both be scum). Or look for connections between town and scum/town and town; both of which are (obviously) a waste of time since one of the pairing is town (and then could be attacked for her attack on a townie by tying them together)

3) Very true, but it also sets up a mental point about a connection. I rarely remember anything that significant throughout a game other than one or two major points and live in the moment. However, if I'm questioned about my own read (specifically pairings) I tend to keep that closer to the forefront of my mind. If one of those pairings ends up town it will affect my read on the other player. So it would both create doubt in Pom's mind (as it would in mine). Also, I've seen somewhere that somebody was attacked for a before lynch pairing during the next day; which allows an alley for having Pom (or whoever) seen in a worse light for being wrong about a pairing. It's a subtle mental note that comes up more than I think people like to admit.

Regarding jmj/thatguy and my stance towards them: Since I've said that both are obv-scum; how do you reconcile your willingness to lynch jmj (with me on the wagon for a long time) with your position that I'm scum? If I were partners with anybody, I'd want them alive; regardless of alignment? If I were truly scum, then wouldn't thatguy/me be a better place to look for scum with my supposed connection there rather than jmj?

Almost believe you're really scumhunting here, Glork....

[Amished]

@Starbuck, thatguy, bv310: What do you think of me?

[Amished]

@Izzy, SPS: *sigh* You both know because somebody is town, they're not always right, right? Glork had a lot of suspects, not just me. Socrates the same.

I've never seen a double-killing faction so therefore if I were scum, I'd have to be able to 1) know who anybody else with a killing role might be and 2) tell *them* to kill of somebody who suspects *me*.

Right, cause anybody with a killing role "protecting" *me* is a good idea and optimal play for *them*.

Besides, I asked those three people in particular for a very specific reason.

Vote: thatguy00

[Amished]

Because the people that attempted to grab the dual pistols were:

Furry (didn't ask for several reasons)
thatguy
bv310
Starbuck
(and jmj if it went to a fifth which I don't believe it does..)

bv has only been talking about the bile, and not about dual pistols so I could rule him out. Starbuck is set on jmj being scum so if she got the pistols I believe that she would've shot him.

That only leaves thatguy.

It's been a pretty obvious theory/playstyle that if you get a vig, you use it as much as you can as often as you can. Since neither kill looks like a vig; that means that whoever grabbed the pistols destroyed them (which is only possible by scum).

It appears that I was right with my first instinct for sure about him, and these circumstances only help to reinforce my belief that he's scum.

@SPS: after this game I'll never follow dead townies again as every single lynched town from day 3 said that Papa Zito was scum (including me). Guess what, he wasn't. Build your own case instead of being lazy.

[Amished]

@Doc: No comment.

[Amished]

@SPS: Now you're just delving into fallacy. It's like that article about ABR? being right 7/7 times nailing scum in a row so then people just followed him even when he was wrong.

BTW: what function *other* than shooting do you think pistols have? Seriously.

Besides, if I were scum wouldn't I be worried about it and go after somebody who had a chance to have it? ... I really just wanna run head first into a wall here.

[Amished]

I think DocPotter is suspicious.

I'm interested in a name claim as I believe it would be more helpful to town than to scum. For the record, Socrates was Keith and he as a jack of all trades fits perfectly into the L4D theme. I mean he survived drowning, traffic accidents and lawnmower blades just to name a few! I'm going to miss him most.

Sad, now Louis shall never get his pills.

almightybob, what do you think?

Ok, What the fuck is going on with this post (and how did I miss it before)?

You give an example of how POWER ROLES ARE LIKELY TO BE OUTED and say that it's good for the town?

[Amished]

@SPS: Because it's a bullshit argument. You're not actually doing shit, you're trying to coast by by saying that "glork was town, so he's right". That's not logic.

A shotgun dropped?

Obviously I was the top scum candidate on a no-lynch day yesterday. If anybody would've been vigged it would've been me. If I had the ability to kill to protect myself, it would've been on somebody that I believed would shoot me.

The more I think about it, Furry has a (long) shot at being scum just from the pistol thing, but it's a slim one; but I believe thatguy to be scum from before as well as being the only one that didn't (basically) not claim to receive the gun. If a person could shoot anybody, they should (just to clear up confusion/reduce the number of suspects if wrong).

Therefore since I *should've* been shot if only for that reason, Starbuck would've shot jmj. bv claimed not to get it and Furry isn't likely scum in my eyes. That leaves thatguy (who wasn't going to get replaced as our mod said that only Ifrinn flaked, implicating that thatguy was around, and still is) that could've grabbed the gun.

Grabbing a killing item and not using it is not feasible from a pro-town member, but grabbing it and having it destroyed is easily explained by the fact that if scum grab something it's destroyed and can't be used.

[Amished]

Boomer bile is almost like a hand grenade in the game (I'm fuzzy on the L4D2 stuff, but I played L4D1 plenty). You throw it, it draws out all the infected around and they flock (and attack?) to whereever you threw it. It makes it easy to run by or just take a shotgun to them all (or a molotov, for that matter).

[Amished]

Yeah, I think there was a little fudging of the flavor there, it does redirect all common infected (in computer game) but for flavor purposes I'd assume that all the scum are boss infected. I can see the connection, just doesn't line up exactly with the flavor

[Amished]

@SPS: It's still because you aren't doing anything. You're coat-tailing a reputation that Glork is often right. You've not provided any evidence stating why you believe he's right (i.e. what I've done that is scummy to you) or looking to see why he might be wrong (cause you've said "often" which implies not always).

re: Killing the vig: If I were scum, it'd make a ton of sense to try to kill a vig so that I don't die since I was a pretty clear vig target. Obviously. However, nobody that went for the gun is dead, therefore I (as scum) didn't go after somebody who I believe would have gotten a vig power which is in my best interest to full a scum win-con. Is this too hard to understand or what?

[Amished]

I'VE CALLED YOU LAZY AND COASTING BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE A CASE.

OMG, seriously. Your whole point is "Glork is often right, he was attacking me, I'm scum". Even if that were true (I have no idea, the one time I played with him as town I got a scum modkilled D1 and he died N1) you don't look or bring up any evidence to support your opinion at all.

I've brought up why, as scum, it would be more beneficial for me to kill off somebody that had a vig as I was an obvious target. However, nobody that went after the pistols (even through 5 people) died.

Other than that I admit I had a terrible day 1 and I'm trying to make up for it now.

@Furry: There's a little thatguy case/suspicion in my ISO if I remember correctly; but it's a lot down to it's a 50/50 chance that you or he picked it up from my opinion; and I have a very much so stronger town read on you than TG00.

[Amished]

I still don't know how people are coming to the conclusion that even if I were scum, I could kill two people.

Neither of you has still stated anything up to date relating your suspicions on me. Pom has joined the "Glork/Socrates are often right" BS; so I don't know if I should be happy that people are being open about attacking without backing up your statements with non-WIFOM (not exactly the word I'm looking for, but based on something that's not from you, second hand knowledge, perhaps?)

Additionally, if scum think that a weak player received the pistol, they might not kill him simply because he could provide a few extra kills on townies.

That might be a possibility, but then use the extra information that neither kill looks like a vig. You're half-assing your scumhunting and the only other time that I noticed that from you you were scum in SWN II.

Therefore whoever got the gun didn't use it; or DESTROYED IT. Which is why thatguy is the best option for today because there was no vig last night. There's also ample evidence from yesterday to support this as well.

[Amished]

Oh, I know you don't, Star; but Pom brought it up now too.

The NKs were a just a bonus.

(note the plural)

[Amished]

@Mod: Any word on a Ifrinn replacement or a prod on Tarhalindur?

[Amished]

I just skimmed up to the current thing and I followed pretty much everything Dizzy said until this part

Socrates is easy.

There are a number of Socrates posts that indicate he may have had a power role that he turned out to have

, which a scum team could pick up on in order to decide he is a good kill. On the other hand, he was the first person to jump to the Amished wagon that prevented a lynch yesterday, which I assume would have attracted a Vig's attention attention. I know if I had vig powers,

I'd have probably killed Socrates last night.

Ok, this rubs be wrong for two reasons: you'd vig somebody that you thought hinted at a power role; and isn't the Soc kill getting mobbed/mauled or something? That doesn't sound like a vig at all. Kill flavor is one of the easiest things to keep from a video game to a MS game. Hopefully I can catch up more.

[Amished]

Keith is a good buddy of Ellis. They may be masons.
Keith is described as one who took a lot of abuse and punishment. He may be a tough person to kill. He may be a survivor with a disadvantage, having been weakened with so much past abuse.
Keith made it through a lot of crap (like horrific accidents, drowning, etc.) but learnt to survive through it. He may be a jack of all trades.

See what I did there? Scum can only vaguely guess at a role with name claims. Anyway, with Glork silenced, I think I'm the only one who is keen on a name claim. Everyone else does not seem interested. Can we please discuss this?

Two thirds of your examples give scum either a mason (why the hell do you want to out them?) or a JOAT (same question). There's no logical reason to push for a name claim.

and being one of the people to stick on the jmj wagon yesterday, yet did not get back on it today.

Mmm, I would like an exmplanation of that from Amished.

jmj is easily in my top three, but with me staying alive/no shot flavor or anything like that I believe that the pistols were destroyed. I've still got a town read on Furry; Starbuck would've killed somebody else, bv got the bile and would've used one of his items if he got the guns I believe (and it's provable since if he dies we'll; which leaves thatguy who I had a strong scum read from yesterday as well.

[Amished]

Still, you don't vig somebody that you claim to have had a PR read on. If necessary you attack them and force them to claim if you don't believe them. Then if they're telling the truth you get PR information.

On a related note, why are/were you looking for PR tells at all in the first place?

That's never something that I associate with a town alignment. It just doesn't make sense.

[Amished]

@jmj: If you ask the mod, they'll tell you that scum destroy the item immediately.

[Amished]

@jmj: PM them. I was curious, they told me.

[Amished]

@Charlie: You mean how I'm really the main one pushing thatguy right now because I believe he's that scummy and destroyed an item? That's more compelling than "voting for easy lynch targets" since nobody I've attacked has gotten lynched.

@Mod: I'll be V/LA until Monday (the 19th)

Sorry for the lack of activity, summer sucks for having free time

[Amished]

It's gotta be a safeclaim. It's obvious if you actually looked at your role PM (which townies do to ensure no confusion due to the fact that they know that they're innocent and don't benefit from lying) that you weren't the drinker. With the poster thing that Furry has posted I don't see how you could legitimately be confused as to your "title" thing.

So bogus.

[Amished]

@thatguy: SAFECLAIM: safe - clame (n): A fake role pm that is given to scum that isn't in the town otherwise to prevent massclaims breaking the setup.

[Amished]

How could you possibly think that that picture is confusing to say you're "Dusty, the drinker"? If you even possibly looked at the picture you'd see that you weren't what you claimed to be.

[Amished]

I do not, under any terms or conditions, support an Izzy lynch today.

[Amished]

Because I thought the same thing that she did yesterday; and besides, scum would know that faking a claim of another biker would be extremely dangerous for a single mislynch. It just doesn't make any sense. Besides, Kise and xRx are experienced enough to not allow their game to be broken by massclaiming (and I view this to be an attempt to throw suspicion where there shouldn't be any at all.)

[Amished]

Knock yourself right the fuck out. Nice try saying there's more support for somebody I view to be a mislynch based on mod-WIFOM and no other reason than there actually is.

[Amished]

I didn't understand where she was coming from. Care to not take something out of context next time? I still don't agree with her theory, but that doesn't make her scum.

[Amished]

LOL! That was clever. I got a prod saying I was at L-1 so of course I came and checked it out.

Just a gut read but from BV posting, I don't believe he got the bile, and that means if he didn't get it, he is probably scum.

FoS: BV

This is the only thing that gets you posting? Where's a vig item when you need it?

[Amished]

Why?

Since I posted nothing else of note has really occured so I'll just echo this question.

[Amished]

Oh, it was to charlie that had some half cocked reason that Starbuck, Dram and I should be lynched today; without voting for any of us (I believe)

[Amished]

Why?

Any reason why the three of us specifically? I fail to see the link.

Coz people who suspected Amished & dramonic ended up dead. ReaperCharlie is more of a gut feeling, but I'm not counting on it. I believe Starbuck and her claim that jmj3000 is town.

Well, seeing as Defibrillator is probably a doc protect, doctor should be on our clear. That is JMJ right?

How on earth did you come to such an implausible conclusion? What is a medkit used for?

Not another one...

@Charlie, SPS: Because somebody dies, doesn't make them right. Especially now Charlie, you're trusting the reads of confirmed scum. Do you realize how little sense that makes?

Let me tell you both a story:

Somebody pro-town and actively pro-town was killed N1. Somebody wrongly assumed that townies are always right and *ignored* the other NK's motivations (maybe the scum caught Socrates? supposed PR tells, maybe they didn't and he was killed for his suspicions but the previously noted player only casts suspicion on one of the dead townies suspect. The next night, now that ample time has been wasted by said player (I dare anybody to say that SPS did anything but active lurk throughout yesterday) and suspicion has been cast and the confirmed town opponent of SPS's theory (Furry) is now dead another person has come out of the woodwork to ignore one NK's motivations and only focus on the other NK's motivations.

I believe our dear dead Tar (when town) calls this selective scumhunting. SPS hasn't done shit for a whole day and now is trying to coast by on the same thing that didn't get him called out for yesterday. He's also ignoring a full half of the NK's. You wanna know why? Cause he knows exactly why those kills were made cause he was in on them.

Vote: Steam Powered Shovel

[Amished]

It was never about the NKs! Killing Glrok or Socrates just made sense for Amishedscum. It was tangential to my real point.

Nor was I ever stupid enough to think "townies are always right". How often are you going to repeat that slander? How difficult is it to understand "Glrok is often right. Glrok was pretty convinced you were scum."?

Killing Glork or Socrates also makes sense for anybody familiar with them, but you single me out. You instantly attack me for something that can have many motives. Perhaps one scum group thought he had a power role, or nobody was really attacking any of them but feared Glork in the long haul? You do not even consider any of the other possibilities but you decide to ignore them anyways and attribute it to me.

For your second point, let me illustrate this better so it's clearer that you're wrong.

Say Glork is right (an absurd) 70% of the time. Then say that he was 70% sure that I was scum. In that case it's more likely (barely) that I'm town than scum (49% to 51%). Then consider that nobody will ever be right 70% of the time and it only further illustrates the point that you're still attacking somebody more likely to be town by your main point. Even if you take a more reasonable (but still extremely high) Glork is right 50% of the time: then it's a 35% chance that I'm scum.

You've done this for all of Day 2 and now this is your only contribution on Day 3. I don't know who you even suspect OTHER than me. Die. Now.

[Amished]

Also, after all of D2 you {SPS} talking about it, the scum group that you aren't in has complete and utter control over your play. If somebody that didn't suspect me died, then you could say that it was used to throw you off the track. There's a reason your "reasoning" hasn't caught on, and that's because it's faulty and everyone else knows it.

[Amished]

...

If Glork is wrong about me being scum, then I'm not scum.

Come up with a better argument. You can't estimate his "rightness" either and this last post shows how ridiculous your position really is.

70% is absurd cause no scummer ever is right 70% of the time

[Amished]

@Dizzy: I understand that people die for a reason, but I'm most.. up in arms I guess.. that SPS ignores other valid reasons for a death and only attributes one of them to me without saying what the other reasons could possibly be or saying why this one is most likely.

[Amished]

Uhh, both N1 and N2..... not both N2 *headdesk*

[Amished]

@crypto: largely what bob has said, but add in what I mentioned about N1.

I'm aware of the MD thread, and the OTHER reasons besides level 1 (or even a level 0) reason for a night kill have been ignored for some unknown reason. Without addressing any of the other possibilities and blindly following one option without backing up supposition is ridiculous and what SPS has been doing since the start of D2.

With that clear NK analysis being present, bob's logic comes more into play where SPS's analysis is known and can be manipulated (as SPS-town) or perpetuated (as scum). At this time, I believe SPS to be part of Tar's "mauled" grouping due to the selective scumhunting of only looking at the "om nommed" motivations, but I could see him being part of the "om nommed" group and using NK wifom to coast through days on a weak position without really being called out on it.

[Amished]

@crypto: For any reason besides the PM thing yesterday?

[Amished]

@Reaper: Ok, how about the entire day 2 and now all of D3 essentially active lurking by not pushing on me but attacking me for something that is entirely WIFOM based. He's not scumhunting, he's not forming a case, he's barely talking about anybody else. This is not the action of a townie. A townie would believe that they're right and actually form a case, but SPS-scum is too afraid to get called out on something that he's had like 3 weeks (estimate) to formulate. His case isn't even based on anything that he pointed out or thinks is off in my posting.

[Amished]

Ugh, I hate large games:

@Dramonic: Who do you most suspect and why?

[Amished]

@SPS: re: selective scumhunting: You've said that I had ample scum-motivation to go after Glork N1 (the om-nommed kill); and that Tar was attacking me, giving me scum motivation to go after him (again, the om-nommed kill). You haven't discussed Socrates nor Furry being NK'd; therefore redeeming those NK's to something else and only focusing on one "set" of NK's, attributing both of them to me without really looking at who would benefit from either/both of those deaths. That's why I say you're selective scumhunting.

Ok, so your case (aside from now admitted NK-WIFOM) is that you're following the cop when the person you're following... isn't actually an investigative role..? Seriously, how do you expect anybody to believe your horseshit position when you can't even possibly believe that you're right?

[Amished]

Oh, 1080 by Dizzy and your 1081 ran together in my mind, I see where I was mistaken over that.

Fine, I seem to be missing every single point that you're {SPS} trying to make. Put everything that you think is scummy about me together in one place so that you can't say "that wasn't my main point" or anything and we can get to the bottom of this.

[Amished]

So.. essentially a gut-meta... That's almost convincing.

[Amished]

Wait, what? Rephrase? I'm already voting SPS ...

[Amished]

GRABBIN PEELZ

[Amished]

Yeah, that's especially convincing. If the entirety of your case is going to be based on somebody else's thoughts; I'm not going to respond.

[Amished]

Mod, can you poke or prod or break one of SaintKerrigan's fingers so he posts?

[Amished]

@1295: Or I'm not scum and whoever DID kill Glork (spelled correctly!) or Socrates thought they were a power role, or countless other reasons. I'm glad that you've dropped that from any significant case.

@1293: Your position is still: (this is all assuming a townie perspective on your part)

Glork (confirmed town) is *often* right. Glork died N1 for *unknown* reasons (I think we can both be sure that no vig om-noms people). Glork suspected Amished the most. Therefore, I will follow Glork blindly, who didn't have any opportunity to use an investigation in the first place even if he had one.

(side note: the one game that I was in together with him he was NK'd by the mafia after not attacking a single one of them. (Mafia 104 if anybody cares))

In this: You are not looking at my posting and determining what (if anything) is scummy to you. You have not discussed anybody *but* me since your ISO 11 aside from asking Charlie to claim yesterday.

tl;dr: You are not a townie. "Your" "case" has about as much merit as an RVS vote. You have done nothing this game except for clog the thread with uselessness.

[Amished]

It's not that interesting.

[Amished]

... I think that's the first time *anybody* said "get him out" to me. Sad day.

[Amished]

No counter-claim for the pills here.

Also: SPS: You have no case. You've now like hypnotized Charlie into thinking the same thing as you. You're clearly scum trying to push something that you really have no responsibility for. What happens if you lynch me? Then the next day you get off by saying "oh, Glrok (intentional) must've been wrong once. Oops". I will not let that happen.

[Amished]

I see what jmj is talking about. I think he's saying why delay scum-lynch so we can lynch scum that day too, since we'll kinda be half-assed scumhunting with the pill thing. Lynching scum sooner rather than later with two scum kills is obviously better. I need to catch up on this game better too, I have too few town reads for my liking.

[Amished]

@Starbuck: In short, active lurking.

He hasn't done anything remotely resembling scumhunting since the start of D2 where he piggybacked Glorks suspicion of me and hasn't added to that since.

[Amished]

I think Izzy is banking on the fact a medkit and? a defib dropped (maybe only the medkit, I haven't kept up with that); one of which would probably act as a doc protect.

Course, that draws a potential PR action; but it would also confirm a townie (like a one-shot cop at that point, so it'd be worth it in my opinion). Also, keep in mind that I have a strong town read on Izzy.

[Amished]

Reaper, how do you feel about Starbuck?

[Amished]

Reaper, how do you feel about Starbuck?

She seemed pretty eager to lynch Dizzy, and was extremely active at that point up until the events of thatguy00's lynch, but has since faded back into the woodwork.

This makes me believe she is either scum that was trying to pull a gambit and is now trying to fade back into the woodwork (I have done this myself, and it has worked rather nicely, since as I always say: "Once the seed of doubt is planted, tis mighty hard to uproot."),

OR,

she is town and thinks that having pushed that hard, she just made herself look guilty. And now she's trying not to get lynched for being too vehement in her attacks on Dizzy, and even though she

may

still want Dizzy dead, it is obvious that she doesn't want to

appear

like she still wants Dizzy dead.

The events leading up to Starbuck's

post 1330

may have just been a good excuse for her to unvote.

I realize that most of my post is speculation and is practically useless, but I guess it's just my way of making my thought process known to everyone. That's normally what I do in games: think out loud and hope someone else thought the same thing as me.

Anyone see where I'm coming from?

I understand the bolded; and it's relatively common for scum to do; but I've never heard of any townie do the italicized. They know they're town and therefore don't really have to worry about how they appear. They have their convictions/beliefs and follow through with them.

[Amished]

Unvote

I don't see the logic behind the molotov beyond "killing it {a wagon} with fire". It's an obvious item that is easily provable and we can lynch him tomorrow if he doesn't follow through with it. In the meantime, we can still lynch scum; need to look over nhammen's cases, my skim thought they looked pretty solid.

[Amished]

Ok, reading through the recent megaposts again:

I'd have to go against Doc moreso than bob; if only for the fact that a fair portion of the bob case is on a slip where he "knew" that bv was town; where now we obviously have information of two scum killing factions. I've never been in a game where I thought I was the only scum faction when there were two; and scum-bob would know that as well. Him "clearing" anybody is then bunk and does support bob's confusion/revision statements.

Doc, however doesn't have the explanation behind it that I can see. I've been getting better vibes from Reaper but that could just be better scum play too.

(intent to vote Reaper goes here when I can reread him and Doc on my own)

Oh shi-

I was just thinking about SPS's claim: SPS: can you use the molotov on yourself (therefore making yourself unlynchable)? Otherwise we'll not lynch him today; or tomorrow if we decide to test it out. We need a list for him to use it on too otherwise we'll have a possible SPS-scum deciding who we lynch for a day, essentially.

[Amished]

Right, but unless I'm understanding something wrong, it makes somebody unlynchable. For us to test that: we'd have to get to a lynching majority, so if he's scum; we'd lynch whoever he told us he'd targeted giving his scum faction another day.

[Amished]

If one of them dies when we try it means we lynched the town and let the mafia survive the day.
Is that REALLY what you want?

This is my main concern as well. Yes, we're getting a townie for a scum, lynch wise; but there are two anti-town killing factions so we're still losing quite a bit through the NK's. If the molotov works where it just makes everyone on a wagon unvote; we can test that without a lynching majority (though I could've sworn I saw somebody say unlynchable somewhere WRT the molotov...).

Izzy's is therefore riskier since it only adds one to the needed to lynch. Oh, nevermind; we just control it til it gets to a L-1 situation, have one person vote and post that, then unvote immediately after in a new post. Doesn't give time for the scum to quickhammer either; so the only way we're risking a lynch is if Izzy is scum (and I'm almost positive that she isn't).

Therefore, we need a new lynch for today; Doc or bob seem to be the top two candidates. Shit, I need to read them both yet too. Sticky noted for later tonight, this was my most important game so I saved it for last so I could get a good post in. I'll vote one way or another tonight. Boy scouts honor!

[Amished]

Vote: ReaperCharlie

Bob did get into scumhunting eventually; but Doc's following of Socrates/me onto Ifrinn; and only talking about items and theory really rubbed me the wrong way now that I took a look at him. Doc's claim of having a vote on somebody for like 250/280 posts or something looks like a bullshit excuse too since the vote that he was talking about was a RVS vote of me for having a comment that could be taken two ways. Reaper came in and didn't do a lot of scumhunting either. What he said kinda fell in line with typical "other townie" talk which is the easy part to fake for scum.

[Amished]

Vote: dramonic

This is the 5th vote, standard L-1. I'll get to a more in depth post later when I'm on my own computer.

[Amished]

First off:

Unvote
Vote: ReaperCharlie

Second off: I don't buy this confusion about items for a second from SK. It's pretty obvious how every item in the game would work (heck, double pistols "gave" two votes to whomever Furry voted for, for example) so any reading of the game would make that apparent. However, SK attacked bob for a BS reason; looking to me like he's throwing suspicion on something that was plainly obvious.

[Amished]

@SK: Exactly what dram said. You replaced in yesterday, how else would we have confirmed anybody by using the items? We talked about all of that including lists pretty much until the deadline. Scumz not following along? I notice that you pretty much haven't talked about confirmed scum Reaper until the obvious slip just now.

[Amished]

Well, I expect either

Follow along from where you replace in

and/or

Fully catch up

and/or

ISO a couple high profile targets

from a town replacement. It seemed like you were going to do the 2nd while doing the first. At the very least you could've done the first as there wasn't that much going on.

[Amished]

Townies still take a pretty good look at the rules. Especially for theme games. Item dropping is pretty hard to miss if you even remotely glanced at the first post of the game.

[Amished]

1) Townies typically want to get every advantage from the game
2) Items dropping are an advantage
2a) Being clear on the rules helps (i.e. can give you an advantage)
3) The rules about the items are in the first post of the game.
4) You have no freaking clue how items work
5) Therefore, you're not town as you didn't need to look at how items work (because you're scum); and haven't read the FIRST POST OF THE GAME

Especially when you've made such gems of posts like:

Just so it's out there, I've never played L4D before, and the reason I'm here is because I cross-replaced with Reck. This is also my first large Theme (not including my short stint in SWN II), so it may take me a little time to get a grasp on the mechanics of this game.

If anyone would like to give me a brief summary of the current game status,

along with any relevant info regarding items and such

, I'd really appreciate that.

Other than that, I'll be chugging my way through the read.

So you "know" about items but didn't want to know the rules so that you could skate by later if you were questioned about them and you even

Grab: Defibrillator.

-snip-.

tried to grab an item.

@dram: I'm onto something here, add to it or shush! :glare:

[Amished]

bicker?

Finding scumz

[Amished]

@ Amished: I have a grasp on how items work. I have shown this in both the quotes you mentioned as well as my description in Post #1540. Where are you getting the idea that I have no clue how items work?

The test tells us nothing about dramonic's alignment though.

Vote: Almightybob.

If Dramonic was scum, the pills would've been destroyed, and thus he would've been lynched. This sounds like scum trying to unconfirm a confirmed.

[Amished]

@ SK: So... what did you think we talked about with regards to Dizzy (and SPS, to an effect) yesterday?

[Amished]

@ SK: So... what did you think we talked about with regards to Dizzy (and SPS, to an effect) yesterday?

I don't recall having read that part yet. If you can give me a post number(s) for reference, I'll try to provide an answer.

Ok, lets see. You replaced in here on page 46.

Dizzy grabbed the pills here, on page 51 (5 pages after you replaced in). She then explained what the pills did here on page 53.

Finally, there's the post here that specifically states what you were "confused" about:

Ugh, apparently I'm not allowed to use them on myself, but the mod has confirmed that they're used at the start of the day, thus ensuring that using my plan, the town gets the back if I die tonight. So really, there's no reason to not attempt to pull of my plan to clear myself.

Also: the mod has made it clear that they'll work on non-town players, so I will definitely be cleared by the pills working, but the person they are used on won't be.

OH, then don't forget that SPS claimed the molotov here; with similar confirmable status for him. This derailed two L-1 (mis-)lynches on D3 and contributed to our no-lynch.

How do you seriously miss all of this if you're a townie?

[Amished]

@bob: what happens if it's an SK + a larger group of mafia?

If it's 2-1-5 left; we're in mylo (given that there are no cross kills).

If it's 1-1-6 left (possible depending on scum power) then we have no reason to no-lynch. 18 people alive; 5 scum (total) isn't outrageous either. Without knowing, your suggestion is scummy as all hell.

@Dizzy and Starbuck: You're both town, focus on scumz.

I want to go back and check dram/tar/reaper for buddies. Probably have time to do that tonight.

@Charlie: Do you even have a case? You've been saying that I'm scum for a while now.

[Amished]

@Starbuck: (editor's note, I haven't gotten a chance to read through the scumz on my own yet, but going off of what you pulled from dram)

(objectively) The difference between bv and I (from what I remember of drams interactions with me) is that dram never tried to derail my wagons. I can see dram trying to keep bv alive with that defense while not speaking up against mine to allow a mislynch. Pushing crypto over bv seems similar but obviously I'm less sure about that without reading it myself.

@bob: I never questioned two *factions*; just the number of people in a faction. I'm in an ongoing game where I believe that an SK was colored red; maybe Kise and xRx didn't want to be normal (which, if you know them isn't all that hard to believe...)

I can see 4/1; and 5/1; but not 6/1 in an 18 player game. What makes me lean this way more is that dram's pretty blatant derailing of certain wagons looks like he's protecting scumbuddies and has more knowledge about who would be town or not.

If it's 5-2-1 (town, scum, sk) and we mislynch; we'll have another day even if two townies are hit; since for the sk to win, he'll have to align with the town in a 2-2-1 situation and lynch and kill the last scum (or force a prisoner's dilemma; which should always end in a town win).

However, if it's 6-1-1 and dram was just confusing the issue treating a buddy and a townie similarly; then we definitely have a mislynch (maybe two). The only scenario that we don't have a mislynch yet is if bob is right and there's a 3/3 split (3/2 doesn't make sense since ambushed has two "power roles", 3/4 would be game over). This does look like bob is trying to scare the town into being patient and maybe getting to a no-lynch situation (which isn't uncommon this game )

@bv: did you use your redirect last night?

[Amished]

@Charlie: I need to really go through the game again; but after today and with my thoughts on possible setups I'm finding it less likely that bob is town.

Oh, while I'm on that note: to me, an SK is a scum "faction" of 1 person. I don't really understand the naming convention labeling them third party as some third party's (survivor, mainly) can win with the town. An SK has a directly contradictory wincon to any town; so therefore they're scum. They just don't have buddies. Scum faction of 1. Ugh, I hate semantics arguments. More later.

[Amished]

@Izzy (1647):

I'm part of the latter. The item claim is what made me throw him into a townie pile; mostly because I figured if he was he'd get NK'd for having a claimed PR (essentially) by one of the two factions.

Essentially though: if bv is scum; he'd have to be part of the same group as tar/dram/reaper. Otherwise he wouldn't know about a roleblocker or be able to claim that he was roleblocked.

So it comes down to if you believe it's two groups of 3 scum each; or if there's a larger group and an SK.

If it's the former, he's cleared and if it's the latter; he's got a damn good chance of being scum IMO.

[Amished]

@Izzy: (All assuming bv is scum) If it's a 3/3 setup: All of dram's faction is dead; meaning he's part of another group. Two kills have happened every night so he wouldn't know he got roleblocked if a kill failed. He'd have to be told that his action failed; or be a mafia doctor or something (but then why would he protect somebody not of his faction?) It doesn't make sense for him to be part of the other faction as how would he know he got roleblocked before a roleblocker flipped? There's a chance that both scumteams are mirrored if this setup is the case; but oftentimes mods like to have one scumgroup dedicated to "defense" and one to "offense". (add link to Last Will Mafia modded by LlamaFluff where I was part of the "defensive" team when site isn't being slow as hell)

If it's an X/1 setup (where bv is the 1); there haven't been any missed kills, so that's not possible.

If it's an X/1 setup where bv is in the X; his buddy was a roleblocker and could easily claim that for a later time to seem more legitimate. Charlie? pm'd the mod and got the same information so bv-scum could find out what happens if an item wielder gets roleblocked. (null if Charlie/bv are a scumteam; but this should be easily checked and therefore I'm taking it as true regardless).

The only way bv-scum makes sense is if there's a large scumgroup and an SK. Otherwise he's an idiot town. As I haven't really seen any convincing logical evidence that this game *isn't* an X/1 setup rather than a 3/3 setup; it's still a quite open possibility for me.

That brings me back to bob: why would bob-scum bring up a 3/3 setup as a possibility if it's true and he's in the scumgroup? It would tell us that we're in mylo making us all more wary. A no-lynch only hurts him since we'd have a bigger chance to hit his scumteam tomorrow so there's no reason to try to sow fear of a mislynch and get it to a deadline situation.

Christ, I don't know what to think anymore.

[Amished]

@Izzy: (All assuming bv is scum) If it's a 3/3 setup: All of dram's faction is dead; meaning he's part of another group. Two kills have happened every night so he wouldn't know he got roleblocked if a kill failed. He'd have to be told that his action failed; or be a mafia doctor or something (but then why would he protect somebody not of his faction?) It doesn't make sense for him to be part of the other faction as how would he know he got roleblocked before a roleblocker flipped? There's a chance that both scumteams are mirrored if this setup is the case; but oftentimes mods like to have one scumgroup dedicated to "defense" and one to "offense". (add link to Last Will Mafia modded by LlamaFluff where I was part of the "defensive" team when site isn't being slow as hell)

If it's an X/1 setup (where bv is the 1); there haven't been any missed kills, so that's not possible.

If it's an X/1 setup where bv is in the X; his buddy was a roleblocker and could easily claim that for a later time to seem more legitimate. Charlie? pm'd the mod and got the same information so bv-scum could find out what happens if an item wielder gets roleblocked. (null if Charlie/bv are a scumteam; but this should be easily checked and therefore I'm taking it as true regardless).

The only way bv-scum makes sense is if there's a large scumgroup and an SK. Otherwise he's an idiot town. As I haven't really seen any convincing logical evidence that this game *isn't* an X/1 setup rather than a 3/3 setup; it's still a quite open possibility for me.

That brings me back to bob: why would bob-scum bring up a 3/3 setup as a possibility if it's true and he's in the scumgroup? It would tell us that we're in mylo making us all more wary. A no-lynch only hurts him since we'd have a bigger chance to hit his scumteam tomorrow so there's no reason to try to sow fear of a mislynch and get it to a deadline situation.

Christ, I don't know what to think anymore.

[Amished]

@Izzy: (All assuming bv is scum) If it's a 3/3 setup: All of dram's faction is dead; meaning he's part of another group. Two kills have happened every night so he wouldn't know he got roleblocked if a kill failed. He'd have to be told that his action failed; or be a mafia doctor or something (but then why would he protect somebody not of his faction?) It doesn't make sense for him to be part of the other faction as how would he know he got roleblocked before a roleblocker flipped? There's a chance that both scumteams are mirrored if this setup is the case; but oftentimes mods like to have one scumgroup dedicated to "defense" and one to "offense". (add link to Last Will Mafia modded by LlamaFluff where I was part of the "defensive" team when site isn't being slow as hell)

If it's an X/1 setup (where bv is the 1); there haven't been any missed kills, so that's not possible.

If it's an X/1 setup where bv is in the X; his buddy was a roleblocker and could easily claim that for a later time to seem more legitimate. Charlie? pm'd the mod and got the same information so bv-scum could find out what happens if an item wielder gets roleblocked. (null if Charlie/bv are a scumteam; but this should be easily checked and therefore I'm taking it as true regardless).

The only way bv-scum makes sense is if there's a large scumgroup and an SK. Otherwise he's an idiot town. As I haven't really seen any convincing logical evidence that this game *isn't* an X/1 setup rather than a 3/3 setup; it's still a quite open possibility for me.

That brings me back to bob: why would bob-scum bring up a 3/3 setup as a possibility if it's true and he's in the scumgroup? It would tell us that we're in mylo making us all more wary. A no-lynch only hurts him since we'd have a bigger chance to hit his scumteam tomorrow so there's no reason to try to sow fear of a mislynch and get it to a deadline situation.

Christ, I don't know what to think anymore.

[Amished]

That you don't have a case?

[Amished]

If it's mylo I want to be careful with my votes.

I'm struggling with Saint, bob and you, Charlie as my top scum suspects. Saint is still #1 with the delay and not even paying attention to the game. bob has done scummy things, but other stuff that he's said/talked about (3-3 scum split, namely) doesn't make sense to bring up as him scum. For you, I'm trying to see your motivation for throwing a vote down in something you consider mylo without a case at all. Your explanation for why you believe you can vote is weak as hell too since three people can be online at one time very easily. Giving that as your primary reason for why you don't fear a quickhammer is pretty bogus.

[Amished]

Oh shit, forgot about bv. I do need more information on the setup to be clear about him. If there's one big scumgroup, then he's my top suspect, but if it's split 3/3 then I don't see how he can be scum at all.

[Amished]

If you had the time to read 2 pages a day you could've gotten caught up by now. However, you attack us for getting on your case for essentially being patient with you for much longer than we should have and now that you apparently have time to defend yourself you still don't have time to do a damn thing about the rest of the people alive. Your willingness to keep yourself alive (to the exclusion of everything else) makes me feel a lot more comfortable about putting you at the top of my scum list.

[Amished]

2 pages a day would barely take 20 minutes if you read into any depth at all barring huge walls'o'text. Probably shorter if you ignore dead people and look for solo tells; or shorter yet if you only look at alive people and connections to dead people if you look for associative tells. It's not that big of a commitment.

Fine: what do you think of Charlie's vote on me without a case put behind it when he says he believes that it's mylo?

[Amished]

SK, you're just getting on everybody's nerves and you keep responding to non-questions isn't helping what we're annoyed with you for right now.

You've given your opinions on Charlie and bob, how about crypto and (more importantly, IMO): bv310? Probably more specifically bv especially with the item claim and all.

[Amished]

I'd rather not replace SK either, but there's only so far you can let someone who's refusing to catch up and participate properly go before it starts to adversely affect the rest of the game, partiularly if town could lose today.

Look how the game has stalled out thanks to people trying to give SK a chance to catch up. This is not good for town.

+1

[Amished]

Fine,

unvote

for now.

ALSO, what the hell are we doing letting something like this go?

1) You still don't have a fucking case
1a) unvoting does not change that fact
2) Your self-preservation is scum bullshit

You're so scum it hurts, I hate that this weekend interfered with my more in-depth reading but so it goes.

For the longest time you've piggy-backed Glork and SPS (and IIRC partially Izzy at one point). I've finally figured out why I've been getting my bad vibes from this game and you: you've been the one attempting to frame me.

You've claimed that this is your primary reason for suspecting me (ISO 85)

You've ignored my explanation that the NK's could be for other reasons (conveniently) since I was more operating under the assumption that Glork/Socrates and Tar (which I believe are the ones that you mostly focused on I believe) are all good players and that's why they were killed. However, killing them does serve a dual purpose of offing threats and framing me. You haven't said anything that the rest of the om-nom kills (SPS and dram) don't necessarily fit your theory.

SPS could be confirmed town through a day action (and was shot *by* confirmed town) which makes him a threat.

Dramonic: he's done essentially nothing all game regarding me other than calling me town. How does this fit with your weak "case"?

Instead I believe you're buddying to Starbuck (ISO 80 and ISO 85), keeping out of Dizzy's way hoping that she'll revert to her stance after N2 where she voted me for the same reason that you've been pushing all game (and not dealing with confirmed town), and putting a rift between bob and I in the hopes to set up a mislynch either today or tomorrow if by chance I'm lynched and/or bob is scum.

To elaborate further as well: you've "conveniently" resisted looking at alternate explanations for the NK's because you don't want to give your own motivations away through discussion. You know that it can't hold up to intense scrutiny but you continue to push the weak reason that you've pushed all game. You're worse than SK in the fact that you haven't "caught up" insofar as you haven't produced the case that you've essentially been promising since you've first voted me (since you never really had anything ever).

Also, I want people to look back at his interactions with dramonic after dizzy claimed that her target was dram: (First off, Charlie's first MENTION of dram is in ISO 48 without a case (notice a pattern yet?). He failed to provide any real case on either dram or me; then decided to vote me and FoS bob in ISO 64 (no mention of dram even though he fully supported it earlier). In ISO 70 he votes me again (still no mention of dram). ISO 71 is the one where we were attempting to confirm Dizzy, then in ISO 74 he goes back to voting me without explanation again even though dram has been a lip-service "scum candidate" (for lack of better words) for just as long and nothing has really changed. (For reference, Charlie "suspected" dram for the same reasons as me in ISO 52 but *never* attacked dram along those lines for the rest of the game. As an additional bonus, he set up a future bus on ReaperCharlie if it came to that for more weak reasoning. ISO 76 he mentions dram again but fails to specify why I'm so much better of a candidate than dram if we're ostensibly suspected for the same reason. (hint: it's because my death would eliminate his reason to suspect his scumbuddy after my flip.)

Finally, look at ISO 37. If that's not buddying with tar-scum; I don't know what is.

Connections to all 3 dead scum and an illogical attack? Voting me and essentially saying that the reason that I won't get lynched if I'm town is because he doesn't believe all the scum will be available to hammer at once? (hint: it's because he's scum and there's not enough scum left to quickhammer afterwards)

Sorry that this post became so long and rambly, but the more I looked the more I found that was wrong with Charlie.

Vote: Charlie

obv-scum.

[Amished]

@crypto: There's no way that bv is more scummy than Charlie. bv is second a ways back but not the most scummy.

@Charlie: Don't even give the line "oh, my vote was for discussion". That was not your intent when you put it down and you know it. Your unvote after seeing SK's opinion of your vote on me with what else you've said just today shows that you're very concerned with what (assuming you-scum) SK-town (because I don't see connections there between you) thinks of you. If one person puts you higher on their scum list for that you don't want to get lynched. Clear unvote for self-preservation.

My case winds back and forth, but it's really simple: You've killed people for a dual purpose early in the game, you've applied your "scumtell" unevenly (voting me all the way through over flipped scum even though after all you've said we were suspicious for the same reason. Then you haven't done anything else all game besides ride your argument (which you still haven't posted a case after voting me late on D1). You've never pushed for any lynch with any conviction.

[Amished]

I've wanted a case from anybody for like 3 days now and haven't gotten shit. I'm sick of these retarded accusations.

[Amished]

Oh heck. There is one lead nobody thought to follow. Remember the pipe bomb? I deduce that crypto is in possession of it!

Was. I used it on Tarhalindur night 2. It was a one-shot roleblock that I could use on any of the three nights immediately after I got it.

Why did you choose Tar?

[Amished]

How can you still have a town read on Charlie after all the evidence that's been brought against him though?

[Amished]

I can't say I'm disappointed with the lynch; but I hate that somebody that was defending him hammered. We were about 5-6 days (something like that) away from deadline so I don't see how this hammer makes sense from town.

Get crypto tomorrow if I'm not alive.

[Amished]

YUS!

1) Sorry Dram, I did NOT think that you were scum; I thought you were also a town JOAT/watcher that saw me track somebody that didn't die.

2) I called Tar-scum!

3) OMG the no-lynches! That hurt the town so bad.

4) I can't believe I didn't get lynched

[Amished]

5) LOL @ N5 actions.. Holy hell

[Amished]

3) I can't believe Amished didn't get lynched. Seriously, how many times did he have a wagon on him and it got derailed? Unbelievable.

UNLYNCHABLE!!!!!! I thought that's why you wanted me singled out for a scum role before the game even started...?

[Amished]

@bob: I thought you got the defib so there's no protection that was available. BV didn't redirect me, so it should've gone through had you actually gotten the defib.

[Amished]

Yeah, I don't know how I survived. I count this as my 2nd worst scum game ever...

[Amished]

I LOVE YOU TOO STARBUCK! I actually had a pretty elaborate fake-claim set up for the last day, where I was the lead singer of the band and I was a bodyguard cause I can't live without my fellow bandmates. I even switched my safe-claim PM image to the one that Izzy had to justify my town read of her when she pushed thatguy over PM discrepancy...

I promise next time I'm in a game with you I'll only join if I can be on your team, deal?

[Amished]

So... what happened this game where your only attack on scum was an RVS vote on Exalt and you lived for two days?

Seriously, the game is over, calm down. For your play: you either need to be more convincing to lead to an actual lynch or less of an outstanding threat so that you can push lynches on scum without being NK'd. While "optimal" play as vanilla is to draw NK's away from PR's, in a game like this you also need to alter your play to actually help the town rather than bluster D1 and then get yourself NK'd. There's definitely an aspect to your town play that you're missing so your after-game talk here is just arrogant and annoying, tbqh. Nobody here played a great game. I'd argue Charlie played the best and I still don't understand how a lynch was pushed through on him since we needed 2 townies to help us lynch him.

Fully agree with Furry: I did pretty much exactly that in that game with SpyreX and Ani; where I pegged 4 really pro-town people and shut the fuck up and followed whatever they really said. I knew that I would divide the town and that I could convince them of my own innocence later on in the game thereby preventing a mislynch.

[Amished]

Haha, that is pretty awesome that we sent out the only thing that could possibly kill you dram.... Without knowing it...

Hell, I didn't even know that bob was a godfather OR the witch...

[Amished]

*hugs crypto*