Scummers Mafia: Greatest Bash? (Game Over, Scum wins?)

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't really see the point in claiming miller in the RVS, it certainly raises suspicions...

FOS: SpyreX

And kudos to Starbuck for the Inspector Gadget reference...(has theme song stuck in my head)...

[MonkeyMan576]

Care for a reason?

[MonkeyMan576]

To be clear, if Spy really is a Miller, claiming was 100% correct.
He still needs to go. It's just way too convinient a claim for Scum to be able to dodge Cops all game long.

Maybe it's just me, but this seems like a strange double position to take. Care to elaborate on how claiming Miller is "correct" if he's town but he still needs to be lynched? Do you just not believe him?

[MonkeyMan576]

So you admit to taking a double position...and you don't seem very interested in backing up your statement.

Vote: SensFan

[MonkeyMan576]

So you admit to taking a double position...and you don't seem very interested in backing up your statement.

Vote: SensFan

He said it was just you so he did not admit to taking a double position.

Well, if he's not going to defend himself or elaborate then I'm going to assume that my read on him is correct.

[MonkeyMan576]

Let's say you got the role "You are a Cursed Townie. Every Night you are alive, 4 random Town people will die. You win with the Town."

a) Is it correct to claim ASAP?
b) Is it correct for the Town to lynch you ASAP?

Please try to think before posting in the future, and not jump to stupid conclusions.

I didn't reach any conclusion, stupid or otherwise.

So are you arguing that any town role which could potentially hurt the town should be lynched, say, Paranoid Gun Owner?

[MonkeyMan576]

Care for a reason?

Why FoS, No vote.

I thought he was suspicious, not necessarily scum, as I said in the post.

[MonkeyMan576]

You don't vote for suspicious people?

Sure, but if I voted for everyone I thought was suspicious I'd probably be accused of wagon hopping. Thus, FOS can be used tactically for a variety of good reasons.

[MonkeyMan576]

Starting with the insults early I see.


Anyways, hi Monkey, it's been awhile. How are you?

Pretty good, nice to have a chance to play with you again.

[MonkeyMan576]

You don't vote for suspicious people?

Sure, but if I voted for everyone I thought was suspicious I'd probably be accused of wagon hopping. Thus, FOS can be used tactically for a variety of good reasons.

Why do you care about what other people think?
And I can't see the difference in situation between where you FOSed Spy and VOTED Sens. Not to mention that was your first post (I think) in the game.

I don't see any rule where your first post has to be a vote rather than an FOS. Spy didn't rise to the level of a vote imho and Sens did(him asking for a replacement only reaffirms my suspicions).

I'm not overly concerned about what other people think, but voting for whoever you think is suspicious really isn't practical. Most of the time the best strategy is to vote for who you think is

most

suspicious.

[MonkeyMan576]

My guess of why Sens asked replacement is because of Star.

Were there any games you've played with D1 miller claims or have discussed miller strategy and stuff before?

I'm sure there have been games where I've played with millers, as I've played in a large number of games, but I don't recall any specific conversations about miller strategy.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Cow: Anything to say about SensFan?

[MonkeyMan576]

No vote because millers need to die. Unless Spy starts MOONBEAMING reaalllly fast.

This makes no sense. If millers need to die, then why not vote? And if he really is a miller, then he's town, and only scum would want townies to die.

[MonkeyMan576]

Wow, I've never seen such a baseless wagon, like, ever.

[MonkeyMan576]

Wow, I've never seen such a baseless wagon, like, ever.

This is not a defense. Show us why its baseless.

One vote is made without any real reasoning, another vote just basically says the same thing that someone else said, and there is a FOS without any reasoning.

[MonkeyMan576]

also @Star: I find it very hard to believe that you don't get the case on Monkey. Could you read over his posts again? It's rather obvious.

I asked the question after re-reading over the 4 or so pages we had in the game at that point, and I still don't understand it, which is why I asked.

He's playing both sides of Spyre, calling him suspicious, but not overly suspicious, so he can either jump on the wagon or stay off, depending on how the town goes. He didn't defend his FoS in a way that made sense; he's calling the wagon on him baseless when it's obviously not. And post 80.

This is a false dilemma here. You're acting like people act in only two degrees, scummy or town. This is obviously not the case. There are different degrees of scumminess, and if something doesn't rise to a significant degree, there's nothing anti-town about using an FOS rather than a vote to show your opinion.

[MonkeyMan576]

hasdgfas could well be scum, his posts have largely ignored the most interesting parts of the game

haha. Mind elaborating? I have no idea what I've been "ignoring".

also @Star: I find it very hard to believe that you don't get the case on Monkey. Could you read over his posts again? It's rather obvious.

I asked the question after re-reading over the 4 or so pages we had in the game at that point, and I still don't understand it, which is why I asked.

He's playing both sides of Spyre, calling him suspicious, but not overly suspicious, so he can either jump on the wagon or stay off, depending on how the town goes. He didn't defend his FoS in a way that made sense; he's calling the wagon on him baseless when it's obviously not. And post 80.

This is a false dilemma here. You're acting like people act in only two degrees, scummy or town. This is obviously not the case. There are different degrees of scumminess, and if something doesn't rise to a significant degree, there's nothing anti-town about using an FOS rather than a vote to show your opinion.

sure, but why not vote in your first post? In addition, why be so wishy-washy on him?
I'm well aware that the act of FoSing isn't necessarily anti-town, but it was the way you did it. You're strawmanning.

No, I'm not. I FoS'd because I thought he was suspicious, not scummy. I'm not obligated to participate in the RVS, if I see something that warrants bypassing it. Believe it or not, RVS is not practiced in every mafia site on the internet, and is not uniformally considered necessary.

[MonkeyMan576]

If ortolan says he has "good reason" to ask zazie for a claim, then I'll believe him at this point. Of course, if it turns out to be bogus, he's scum on my list.

Unvote:
Vote: Zazie

[MonkeyMan576]

If ortolan says he has "good reason" to ask zazie for a claim, then I'll believe him at this point. Of course, if it turns out to be bogus, he's scum on my list.

This is absurd. This is the exact same thing you did with Spyre, playing both sides. This is where my vote stays

I'm not playing both sides. I'm thinking ahead. There's a difference.

[MonkeyMan576]

I shake my hands of more town-fail, you're just digging your hole deeper

I guess I will have to wait till after the game to find out what the fuck is going on with my kill flavour, with the redirection and with non-reveal of insane cops

Can you explain why you think you are insane again?

[MonkeyMan576]

I must admit I'm totally confused. If someone could explain to me what's going on it would be helpful.

[MonkeyMan576]

Yeah, wasn't ortalon the hammer on a town lynch(correct me if i'm wrong)? This combined with the unlikely night action scenario is enough for a vote as far as I am concerned...

Vote: Ortalan

[MonkeyMan576]

Sprye X was the hammer on Ortalan and he was also on the Zazie lynch....

Vote: Sprye X

[MonkeyMan576]

So were you.

Vote: MonkeyMan

You didn't even vote...that's almost worse.

[MonkeyMan576]

I didn't vote [ortolan] because I had already said I believed he was town. After discovering he was the shooter, and noticing that the shoot kill flavor was missing night 1, you may notice that I backed off of him after a previous act of vehemence.

Since my mind has shattered as well, I see no harm in claiming. I roleblocked orto the night after zazie was lynched. Everything added up with the sledgehammer/mafia kill still going through, yet the shot kill was missing.

What I find interesting is that orto did not claim to be roleblocked, or perhaps wasn't told.

Yeah, wasn't ortalon the hammer on a town lynch(correct me if i'm wrong)? This combined with the unlikely night action scenario is enough for a vote as far as I am concerned...

Vote: Ortalan

Sprye X was the hammer on Ortalan and he was also on the Zazie lynch....

Vote: Sprye X

You need a new tune, sir.

You're right,voting patterns have nothing to do with guilt. Oh wait, it does.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm confused, what do I have to do with ortolan?

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't want this to take up too much of the day, so I'll claim:

I'm Kast, Town Name Cop

Do you guys want to know my results or should I save them in case someone fake claims?

[MonkeyMan576]

BTW, what do people think of my argument about Mask?

It does seem a little inconsistant...

Vote: The Mask

[MonkeyMan576]

A few people here seem to be tunneling. I'm trying to be as productive as possible...

Unvote:
Vote: SpryeX

[MonkeyMan576]

Hoookay

Nice claimin' time btw but lets address the core of this in one fell swoop:

The hell would a name cop do? Are there names that are SCUM?

A name cop gives me the name of someone I target but not their power or alignment.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, sure, but you get what I'm saying?

Monkey goes: "OMG Papa Zito is FATE!"
We go? "Ohhhkkaayyyy?"

Its not like we'd have any reason for anyone to lie about their name regardless of alignment - so, no, that claim makes zero sense.

Theory: Rolecop who gets the name as part of his information. Scum.

More like:

"I'm going to claim as Player X"

"You're not player X, I namecoped you and you're player Y, die scum!"

[MonkeyMan576]

Player Assignments are probably not random, so once we figure out what type of names are scum, scum would reason to fakeclaim their name.

[MonkeyMan576]

Theres. No. Reason. To. Fakeclaim. Your. Name.

None.

Its not like there is a secret master list of THESE DUDES BE SCUM YO.

And none of this changes the reason that monkey got voted in the first place.

This reeks of rolecop but after the first two fabulous days welllll

I disagree. I think you're just using a self fufilling prophecy to look for a reason to not believe my claim. I doubt the mod would give me a name cop role if there was no practical use, I'm guessing the scum have a common denominator.

[MonkeyMan576]

Why is Kast a town name cop?

My role PM isn't that long, but it mentions his agressive play style.

[MonkeyMan576]

I disagree. I think you're just using a self fufilling prophecy to look for a reason to not believe my claim. I doubt the mod would give me a name cop role if there was no practical use, I'm guessing the scum have a common denominator.

Yea.

Or, its the logic behind your vote. Coupled with an early claim. That doesn't make sense.

One of those.

Give me a compelling reason why there would be any reason for a name cop with the flavor of the players of mafiascum.net ffs and you might have had something.

Instead, like I said, you're a rolecop that additionally gets the name piece and went "ohh thats a confirmable part".

That sure doesn't do any good.

Well, that's a really nice theory Sprye, there's just no truth to it.

[MonkeyMan576]

Hmmm... I think you should wait at least a little bit. Maybe a mass name claim? This won't break anything though... It'll just force the scum to use their real name in case they were investigated. But some people will be obvnilla after this... I'm not sure.

I'm good with that.

--

Why is Kast a town name cop?

My role PM isn't that long, but it mentions his agressive play style.

This doesn't fit that well. There's little motivation for scum to fakeclaim a different player. And I don't know why Kast would be a cop for this.

--

Vote: MonkeyMan

Why would anyone be a cop.

[MonkeyMan576]

Besides which, I can prove my night action results(all 3 nights so far), so me being Kast shouldn't be what you are questioning.

[MonkeyMan576]

so me being Kast shouldn't be what you are questioning.

I was questioning why Kast would be a name cop, and what the worth of such a cop would be. I do not doubt that you're Kast.

Obviously there is some connection to the scum, and once that is figured out(or before), scum would have reason to fakeclaim.

[MonkeyMan576]

I don't doubt that Monkey is at least a name cop, if not a role cop. Scum wouldn't be stupid enough to fake-claim like that. I don't doubt that his name is Kast. So I don't know why people (ahem, Pomegranate) are asking why Kast would be a name cop.
Now, what I don't get is that I don't know how a mafia name cop would be useful. It actually seems like a really useless role. Town name cop would be almost as useless.
BUT
If Monkey were a town name cop, he would have asked for his inspection targets to name-claim before claiming his role, because now if he's town he's as useful as a vanilla townie, unless dramonic is imitating Vi and put Tarhalindur in as a scum role (which we wouldn't know anyway).

tl;dr: Monkey is a mafia role cop, claim means nothing, lynch goes ahead as scheduled.

My targets don't know who they are, so if they claim and they are lying, I can still counterclaim them.

[MonkeyMan576]

AGAIN:

Prove it. Right now.

I've got a theory and when I'm right he gets hung.

You really think I ought to show my hand because one player says so? That would be really advantagous for scummy players, which I'm betting you are.

[MonkeyMan576]

@Tajo:

Now, it looks like zito has some kinda mind blowing powers based on the ani/zito mixture. Unless you think they're both lying (which would hurt my brain) there is truth to that part.

So, thinking balance-wise: a scum role that permadestroys town PRs? Oouch.
Now, a town role that can't really be checked out without a huge negative? I could see that.

Mind you part of my Zito is town is either he's faking the same thought patterns I am with D1-2 pretty well OR he's, in fact, town who thought the same shenanigans as I do.

Of that grouping I'd put ani/zito farrr on the townside. The rest of em. Blah.

I was thinking more in the lines of his ability making him some kind of massive roleblocker AFTER they target him, that means there is a result before going offline.

Regarding Zitotown read, I still dont see it, tbqh. May be, and Im really hoping it, the ortolangate that made all of us take anormal stances.

Monkeyman, do you realize that so far all the claims have been EXTREMELY flavorful? Do you think its scummy that you dont have a valid explanation to fit Kast as a name cop?

I gave an explanation.

[MonkeyMan576]

He said valid.

Dingle dangle.

You're not making sense. I have 100% success in night results, and I can be investigated, yet you want a quick lynch on me.

[MonkeyMan576]

Investigated by whom, praytell? Someone really isn't paying attention to the game are they?

Give out your night results and we'll see. I'm betting a pattern.

I'm not giving out results until people nameclaim. Otherwise the results are worthless. My results are needed to incriminate others, not to clear me.

[MonkeyMan576]

And, again, there's no reason to fakeclaim a name even as scum since well, there's no inherent flavor-bad names in mafiascum.net.

So, you can get roped.

That's a false dilemma, there's other reasons to fakeclaim besides flavor-bad names. If you think the scum-names are just random I think you're pretty dillusional.

[MonkeyMan576]

Well, I think we should have a mass name claim just to make sure, what could it hurt?

[MonkeyMan576]

I think you're going to lynch me anyways, so I'm reluctant to give them, but...in hopes that you'll at least give me a chance...

Starbuck is KMD
Manho is Kublai Khan
Populartajo is Benmage

[MonkeyMan576]

While I do so, Mr. Monkey, please give the corresponding reasoning on why you picked who you did.

Starbuck and populartajo have been lurking and manho has been acting suspicious.

[MonkeyMan576]

I think you're going to lynch me anyways, so I'm reluctant to give them, but...in hopes that you'll at least give me a chance...

Scum motivation over here. Town power roles reveal their investigations because it helps the town, not because it might save them from being lynched.

Well, if I'm lynched, I'm not going to be able to help the town, so there's nothing scummy about wanting to survive to help the town further.

[MonkeyMan576]

Besides which, you're forcing me to give them before I want to, so exactly what attitude are you expecting, joy and utter happiness?

[MonkeyMan576]

Also, how was SB lurking if you targetted N0?

It wasn't night 0, it was night 2. I didn't say that was chronological order.

[MonkeyMan576]

While I do so, Mr. Monkey, please give the corresponding reasoning on why you picked who you did.

Starbuck and populartajo have been lurking and manho has been acting suspicious.

If these arent cronological, then who was the lurking or suspicious player in N0?

You...j/k

But n0 was manho. It was random.

[MonkeyMan576]

I just said it was random, he wasn't acting scummy THEN.

I mind if you hammer.

[MonkeyMan576]

I'm going to give everyone else a chance to have their say before hammering. These past two days have given me an aversion to quickhammers, and since we do still have plenty of time until the deadline I'd like to hear other players input on this. So I guess I will do this tomorrow. Also, just in case this is all MonkeyVI, I want to hear a bit more input.

Monkey, when you were first asked for reasoning for voting, you stated that you voted manho for acting suspicious. Then you changed this to random. Also, you say that you investigated Starbuck because of lurking. You do realize that Star had already nameclaimed at the point you investigated, right? And this was not part of your reasoning? Of your claimed targets, 1 had already claimed, and 1 had soft-claimed.

Why not investigate Spyrex to find out if he was telling the truth about being DeathNote?

Also, name multiple players that you find to be scummy.

Any other last words you would like to have?

To be honest I hadn't been playing that close attention. I hadn't noticed the Sprye and Starbuck nameclaims and I kind of clumsily put all my investigations in one basket rather than address each one individually. So my bad for that, but scum don't have any more need for namecops(perhaps even less so), than town, so there are some that think I am a role/name cop and some that think I am a scum cop, no one seems to agree, they just seem lynch happy. But I am town, I gave my results in good faith even though I didn't want to, and they are accurate, so I don't really know what else you are looking for.