/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[populartajo]

Vote: Papa Zito.

My first instinct is that janitor and assassin are no-nos. Extra kills for scumz is horrible and ability to mess up with vital information is harmful in the long run. Even if its one shot, the information of one day in regards to wagon analysis, counterwagons, number of scum left, etc. is critical for late choices.

So if I had to pick now, Id go with roleblocker-rolecop.

Also whats up with people voting for choices asap and saying they wont change their mind. Thats why we have a day 0. Think, people.

I really need to think more about the assasin-roleblocker-no PR claim stuff. Hoopla, can you be clearer about this?

Finally, I think everyone should claim what roles they would have given to town if they were scum. Scumbags already know this information so I dont see it doing any harm.

Ill start. Id have given 2 trackers and 2 vigs.

Go on.

[populartajo]

Okay I finally reread this stuff.

Ill gladly abridge the hot topics in this thread for people on the go (TM). As obvious, if Im getting the wrong impression of what you thought please correct me asap:

1.- Rhinox and Hoopla suggested an assassin/roleblocker pair with a politic of lynching claimed power roles to

a)reduce the power of the scum roles and
b)prevent scum from fakeclaiming which seems really likely in this scenario.

My thoughs: At first glance I really liked this idea. As the posts progressed, somehow Im resilient to the idea of lynching power roles that have come up with verifiable information/feel town for gut, interactions etc. Anyways, I dont think its that popular so pushing it or trying to find a way to work seems pointless to me.

2.- Zorblag proposed a hider(s) claim to

a)get two confirmed townies and break the game if scum picked two hiders and we dont give scum a roleblocker.
b) get one hider claim, force scum to fakeclaim or to play hunt the hider.
c) get zero hider claims that will give us the same information scum already have and will prevent hider fakeclaims.

My thoughts: I agree with this plan for the simple fact that I really doubt scum gave us a hider and this would be a useless exercise. Anyways, the benefits if they picked wrong greatly amuse me and its worth the try.

3.- Herodotus proposed a massclaim to

a) Force scumbags to counterclaim with an x number of mafiosos unless they want 4 people confirmed in day 0.
b) Elevate our scum lynch ratio.
c) Render the rolecop role useless.

My thoughts: As all massclaims, they sound good in theory, I dont know how effective they would be in practice. It forces the rolecop/janitor tanget with the shenanigans the janitor always bring, but somehow Ive been moved by the pro-janitor crowd. A lonely ???? result with a healthy amount of other lynches doesnt sound so bad at all. The argument of a ???? covering a power role is likely to happen only if we are about to lynch a claimed power role which we should avoid doing days 1,2 and 3 if we are going to massclaim.

Somehow Im starting to like this idea more than I anticipated.

[populartajo]

I think the big downside with massclaim is the possibility that we have something like 2 Jailkeepers and 2 Trackers (which probably has an above average likelihood, based on the "If I Did It" comments) and thus are unlikely to get a good return on the massclaim; I think the Hider and Weak Doctor roles have a good chance of benefiting from a massclaim, and at least the Vigilante would be more informed in exchange for a lower EK (expected kills).

Isnt the advantage of massclaim the proactive part of it (force scumbags to take a position) rather than what our power roles are going to do?

[populartajo]

In other news, Hoopla, Rhinox, Hero, Zorblag and Spyrex are all very likely town. Voting for them now becomes a scumtell. Be advised.

[populartajo]

Im not surprised that unorthodox ideas as (partial) massclaims dont appeal masses very much. Its hard to implement even when the reasoning is explained carefully, as Zorblag's plan. I dont think its scummy to react that way, tbh, town tends to be more reactive than proactive and Im pretty sure the scumbags are supporting different stances as usual so I think this discussion would be useful in the long run.

That said I totally HATE what some players are doing, the "oh, lets just stop this shit and start the scumhutning plz" clique. Discussion is a very important tool in the scumhunting department even if the topic is not based on who is and who is not scum. Just based on this debate I already have some slight town reads. Since it seems a kinda popular trend, Im pretty sure there is at least one scum hiding there not giving a single opinion of his choices.

Im still a fan of hider claim for reasons previously explained. Still think that there is a way massclaim can help this in a context of very likely to fakeclaim scumbaggos. In this scenario of getting to day 1 asap, I think Im going to go with roleblocker as the weakest role and (still debating about this) the assassin. GASP.

I debated this very hard and thats why I think this part of the game is very important since besides giving some hidden information potentially important in later stages, it opened my mind to other strategies. I went to hate less the rolecop to hate him more due to the importance of power roles not only for his powers but for the fact of the claim situations that can swing games in late days. The assassin seems bad in the surface but its not that effective in a context of scum gambling the shoot and doing this in late stages when the shoot is more likely to hit. I hate less the janitor but something in his ability to mess with reads/flips and such, makes me hesitate.

I STILL WANT PEOPLE TO ANSWER MY QUESTION, SPECIALLY THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE FAILED TO CONTRIBUTE ON THE STRATEGY DEBATE. TIA.

[populartajo]

THE QUESTION IS: WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE GIVEN TO TOWN IF YOU WERE SCUM?

[populartajo]

I suppose I support the hider claim.

@Tajo: I'm doubtful of the benefits to the question in 238. The disadvantage I see is that scum could pick their fakeclaims more convincingly if they know what the townies expect the PR's to be.

I dont get this. Could your rephrase/example/etc?

Im not a hider.

[populartajo]

Ok, I dont even want to comment on what dgb did. Could be useful in the long run only if dgb is town which Im not still sure its the case.

Now that we have the janitor locked decisions kinda become more easy. Im not that thrilled with the choice but not as dissapointed as Id expect due to my progress of dehaterizing the role. So with that, the assassin is still in the nightmare zone for the power of additional kills in a likely power role lynch claim. The rolecop seems too useful for getting rid of power roles and optimizing the janitor shenanigans. The roleblocker seems still the weakest, not only for limited shoting, also for the fact that its partially useless if we consider scum didnt give us protection roles (which I think its a safe assumption) and gave us the trackers and the vigs.

[populartajo]

Im digging Zorb's idea but I really think its too late for getting suport for a massclaim (clearly not a very popular suggestion) and then a rolecop for the clash of egos effect.

Vote: Roleblocker.

[populartajo]

Oh yes, the janitor only works on lynches. For some reason I imagined an scenario where they find a power role and then get rid of it with the ???? for fakeclaiming later that role.

But, Zorb, the rolecop DOES help scum find power roles more quickly than the roleblocker. Why do you disahree with it?

[populartajo]

Quick Post because Im leaving for party now.

Ooba is town, even if his reasons for calling people town and scum are silly (Ill explain why when I come back). No scum will force himself to opinions of all the players in RVS. DGB and zor prob town too. Stop wasting time.

Vote: Amished.

100% gut. Ill try to hunt for the reason that made me feel bad about this guy when I come back as well.

[populartajo]

Amished is prob town.

Why?

@Tajo: I think I know why you think I'm scum, and you're wrong.

Please elaborate.

Im also having a bad feeling about Vasudeva, that is based on the town meta I recall from him. Vasudeva, could you summarize your meta in one paragraph?

I don't really like ooba's or Elli's play, but I don't think it's scummy; I don't agree with tajo's reason, but I don't mind it - I don't think anyone is strongly committed by it, so "scum don't like to commit themselves" is less valid.

My point was that I really dont see scum forcing to positions in RVS. What ooba has done (assuming he is scum) is to strongly reduce his possibilities to support a well thought wagon on a townie just for the fact that his analysis proved he was town. The fliflop is really painful to write and to make it look sincere.

Tajo is town, but I disagree with most of what he says.

lolwhy?

[populartajo]

DGB, who is scum?

[populartajo]

Tajo, why do you know about my meta/asking about it? I have never played with you before.

This isnt a valid response.

Vote: Vasudeva.

Wagon go.

Spyrex is town.

[populartajo]

I thought you people WANTED to play together?

(it's me, isn't it, doing the job you hired Patrick for...)

Prodding DGB,

Elmo

, KMD,

Plumegranate

, Rhinox, and zoroaster for falling behind activity guidelines.
Slicey has a small grace period to his prod, due to weekend V/LA. Elmo and Plumegranate get a bye due to Caffwagon.

Thx Flay. At least one of these guys is scum.

DGB, Elmo, KMD, Plum, Rhinox and Zoraster.

Remember to isolate Tajo when you are in endgame and POE gives you a name out of this list.

[populartajo]

WHY IS VASUDEVA STILL ALIVE?

[populartajo]

Also what is the case on Hoopla?

[populartajo]

Thx Flay. At least one of these guys is scum.

DGB, Elmo, KMD, Plum, Rhinox and Zoraster.

Remember to isolate Tajo when you are in endgame and POE gives you a name out of this list.

I don't know if you meant this as a joke or serious, but you realize that mathematically, if you pick any random 6 people in a 20 player game in which there are 4 scum, there is an 80% chance that at least 1 of those 6 players are scum. Unless you feel being prodded is a scum tell, you might as well have picked 6 names at random.

In a game with this amount of superstars and at the pace we are going, there has to be at least one lurking.

Yes I know that silly stuff about 1 of 6 players is scum blah blah blah. What I did was to give a DEFINED list of players. Random can kiss my ass. In endgame, every reason to decide your vote counts and adding green to this defined list (with town flips) should be helpful in the long run.

[populartajo]

Zoraster, can you explain in two sentences why you want to lynch DGB?

[populartajo]

shameless anitprod post.

tomorrow full reread.

[populartajo]

VLA for a couple of days. Full opinions with a couple of caught scum when I come back.

[populartajo]

Gosh, this guy Vasudeva is so scum.

Vote: zoraster
Also, Hoopla's cake-y avi looks awesome with THC. Fooled me for around 3 seconds.

First he hopes in the zoraster wagon, once DGB attacks him for his tunneling case. Then he adds a joke reason to a semiserious vote.

Spyrex is town for multiple posts.

Is Zoraster always this close minded? If he, then he is also town.

Im thinking Rhinox town. Meta reasoning here.

I also dislike Mrs. Plum for voting ooba instead of other people.

Oh joy, Vasudeva hops again in 409 against ooba for a WEAK reason. SCUM.

Mmmm, I dont like mith's top 4 (DGB, Hoopz, ooba and MME), pretty much for what zoraster said in his next post 413.

Amished thinks he know why I think he is scum. But I have no idea why I think he is scum, other than gut, argg, this answer is bugging me. Amished town, please tell me why should I think you are scum.

Im getting a scummy read of Mike. I dont remember posting him a lot of one lines.

Vasudeva hops again against KMD. And Im not buying the VI Ill lynch whatever moves attitude. I know VV is capable of thinking.

I like hero with his stances in 445.

Tajo, why do you know about my meta/asking about it? I have never played with you before.

Ive read the following games where you were town:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 72&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 55&t=13633

I have no idea why you are refusing to post your playstyle in a paragraph. I know you can think, you were a feared townie in the Beatles game. You were very easy to read as town in Deathnote's game. This game, you are hoping wagons like crazy and providing really bad arguments to support your views.

I also hate wallotexts, did I mention that?=

I think Ive realized why I think Amished is scum... I also dont remember him posting a lot of one liners and a lot of questions. Id expect Amished town to have some stances by page 21.

If you were hunting scum you'd be asking him his opinion of OTHER PLAYERS, something he's avoiding to do.

I really want to understand his motivations for voting you. Dont worry, dear, imma town. His answer is good enough and pretty much to what spytown is thinking in some of his posts in page 21, high in moonbeams but believes in what he is doing.

I haven't played with (un)populartajo before,nor have I ever talked to him outside of games yet he claims to have a 'bad feeling' about a 'Town meta' of mine. If that's not suspicious, I don't know what is. Also, he dodges that question and proceeds to wagon on me.

So with all the votes you spit in RVS, why in HELL didnt you vote ME?

Ok, page 24 freaking tired now, Seraph is also prob town. Scum by now: Vasudeva, Amished and Mike. Confirming my VOTE: VASUDEVA.

[populartajo]

Hey Tajo, do you remember from the previous invitational where early on I said jokingly that probably one of the five lurkers was scum and got attacked hard for it? What was your opinion on that?

Why should I remember this?

Also what is the scumhunting motivation for this question?

[populartajo]

BTW HAY TAJO AM I SCUM THIS GAME?

I HAVE NO IDEA. ARE YOU VOTING ONE OF VASUDEVA, AMISHED OR MIKE? IF YES, TOWN.

Arggg, why are you people discussing my list? This isnt the time you should be looking at this list...... ENDGAMEEEEEEEEEEEE.

[populartajo]

Votecount, please, Mr Patrucl, also when is deadline?

Also laos, Hoopstown knows there is a janitor on the mix? Why the hell is she doing this if she is town?

[populartajo]

WTF IS THIS I DONT EVEN