/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[VasudeVa]

Hmmm... I like Assassin and Roleblocker. No synergy whatsoever. I don't think it's worth protecting the PRs anyway but they're still pretty useful. I'm going to guess with what the scum chose, I'd say it's 2 trackers, 1 vig, 1 hider because that's what I'd choose.

Vote: Assassin
Vote: Roleblocker
Vote: Deadline 3weeks, 2weeks flat.
Vote: Hoopla

Do scum have daytalk? Do we get to lynch Day 0? I don't seem to find any specific mention of these, so yeah.

What the hell is a mountainous setup?

[VasudeVa]

Actually, scratch what I said about what I'd choose. I'd totally do 2vigs - 2trackers. If ever the kill flavor is different, then scum can claim vig(which would make the Janitor doubly dangerous.).

@Hoopla: Well, I thought it was RVS time. Apparently not.

Scum daytalk makes this game around 3x scarier with the player list. Is it permanent or just for day 0?

[VasudeVa]

I really really REALLY dislike Janitor. Scum have a strong advantage with an unknown lynch no matter what the alignment of the lynchee because they can easily spread bad information AND get away with it. Then there is the threat of a ninja LyLo(if they are ever unannouced....

@Mod: Are they?

). Lastly, it will make us doubt all claims in this game forever and force us to speculate. I have won and lost games where speculation ultimately drowned the Town out.

The Assassin is very weak at it's core. It only seems powerful because it can kill but~
1. There is a way to circumvent the Assassin primarily because we KNOW that there is an assassin. Just don't claim and let the reveals tell us the truth.
2. The Assassin can not be used to sneak a win on us.
3. With 12 VTs and 4PRs, the chances of them killing anyone isn't good.
4. The PRs aren't that impressive anyway and it looks like Town will be doing more traditional scumhunting than 'Follow the PR'.
5. Coupled with the RB, the scumteam seems VERY weak now.

[VasudeVa]

Actually, reading back Hoopla made all the points I wanted to make. Curse my aversion to giant walls¹!

¹of text. Although I would averse my self from the Great Wall too²

²If I were planning to conquer Ancient China³

³As a Mongolian Khan!⁴

⁴Then again, I'm not Mongolian⁵

⁵In fact, I don't know anyone who's a Mongolian.⁶

⁶Except the Khans⁷

⁷But I don't know them personally.

Wow, I'm bored.

[VasudeVa]

The main argument for RB + Assassin is this:
We are ultimately giving them 2 PRs that do roughly the same thing. Having an Assassin and an RB effectively neutralizes the RB because scum will definitely choose to kill rather than RB a PR if they ever find one(And they won't because the fact that we KNOW there is an assassin discourages PR claims.).

The end result is: They have 1.5PRs, we have 4 PRs.

If that isn't a convincing argument, I don't know what is.

[VasudeVa]

I am against massclaim = Daycop/Janitor. Of course the daycop would be useless, All the PRs would have claimed already.

Still,

unvote: RB

because it is at L-X and whatever. I don't see how we would ever end up NOT choosing the RB though, but acci-hammers are my pet-peeve so w/e.

[VasudeVa]

Sooo the major difference is: "

Let's

If

we massclaim, we can stick scum with a completely useless Daycop, Hurrah!"

Not exactly sure why the 'if' part is important nor why it makes the argument more convincing.

The Janitor makes it all moot. Remember:

Scum have daytalk

and if we do go with this plan, it'll be easy to coordinate fake claims and janitorization which would benefit scum

alot

. (I'm actually more scared of teh daytalk than I am of the scumPRchoices.)

Also, with five claims and a janitorization = Our real PRs are now unreliable and thus effectively neutralizing our PRs until we find the fakeclaiming scum(which we might not, because of the Janitor.). 5 claims in the DC/Jan plan absolutely needs a scumflip to be effective and it will only help us for 5 days or so if we play it perfectly and lynch correctly knowing that there will be a ???? flip.

4 claims in the DC/Jan plan is next to impossible. The Janitor is a fake-claim WIFOM machine, I don't see why scum won't take advantage of that. In fact, it will practically force them to claim otherwise they'll have 4 confirmed townies to deal with. The scum countermeasure here will be one goon fakeclaims, scum team kills off ALL 4 PRs which is obviously bad considering only get to catch 1 scum.

What's the Town advantage here anyway? I don't see it. All I see are PRs dying early with little to no benefit other than a temporary voting block.

[VasudeVa]

Ack, my first prod.

Hider claim?
Yes - 1 (Plumegranate)
No - 5 (ekiM, Amished, PZ, Rhinox, Vas)

Massclaim?
Yes - 0 ()
No - 6 (ekiM, Plumegranate, Amished, PZ, Rhinox, Vas)

I'm now against any Town gambit discussed thus far. Let's just continue the game normally and pick bad roles for scum etc. Scum have had more than enough time to plan for the plans discussed thus far anyway.

Also, I'm having terribad internet access for a while now and Starcraft II's epic epic epic campaign isn't helping me be more active.

[VasudeVa]

That said though, no to Janitor for no claim shenanigans if there is no massclaim(which is looking to be the case anyhow.). Assassin/RB it is with PR lynches.

Vote: Assassin
Vote: RB

[VasudeVa]

Reading back, I'm having trouble understanding the Assassin role PM. What does 'to perform two extra nightkills, on top of the normal mafia kill. ' mean, exactly? Does it mean that the assassin targets 2 people per night, + Mafia kill? Or is it a fancy-schmancy way of saying 2-shot?

[VasudeVa]

Not a hider

[VasudeVa]

Vote: Rolecop

since we have a hider/fakeclaiming hider and all.

Also, wtf was with that Janitor-hammer.

[VasudeVa]

Didn't DGB claim Hider?

[VasudeVa]

Sooo...Is it safe to throw out votes yet?

[VasudeVa]

Vote: zoraster

Also, Hoopla's cake-y avi looks awesome with THC. Fooled me for around 3 seconds.

[VasudeVa]

I don't like 'ooba's I have more scum reads than town reads' wall.

Vote: ooba

Also, you're reading way too much into that.

[VasudeVa]

I don't like 'ooba's I have more scum reads than town reads' wall.

^^^ THIS is why you're voting ooba, of all reasons???

That happens to me all the time, having more suspects than there can be scum player slots, and it drives me up the wall when people run up a wagon because I suspect 4 players when there is, say, no more than 2 scums left or something.

Okay then, let me elaborate.

I'm voting ooba because his long wall of scum is suspicious. His scum reads are either lurker attacks or some weird graspy case, his neutral reads are weird as hell and I have no idea why the hell they are in there for the reasons posted and his Town reads are like 'this person suggested something lol'. Something is off with it and I don't like it.

[VasudeVa]

Vote: KMD

Let's get a serious bandwagon going on. Still interested in what ooba has to say to my point against him though.

[VasudeVa]

Tajo, why do you know about my meta/asking about it? I have never played with you before.

[VasudeVa]

vote: Hoopla

I want to see where this goes.

[VasudeVa]

@Rhinox
I move my vote where I think it needs to be. Besides, bandwagoning is a legitimate strategy D1. I switch my vote to whoever has the biggest wagon that interests me, with the intent to pressure and in turn gather more accurate information.

@Tajo:
It's a pretty legit question. I've never played with you before, and why you're saying that you know about me raises eyebrows. Also link to whatever that game is.

[VasudeVa]

Sweet. I'm the scum-driven counterwagon. I very much like the fact that Hoopla is voting for Hero, FYI. That looks a bit like something I saw before from a scumbag somewhere.

Hey Amished, doesn't this look a little bit familiar?

[VasudeVa]

I see very little point in self-metaing to answer Tajo's question. No matter what my alignment is, I will always answer in a way that will give me town points. I was more concerned with the fact that he apparently knows my meta even if I have never played with him before nor have ever talked to him outside of games.

So, yes. I am dodging the question because it was pointless and suspicious.

---
@Seraph: Actually, I do feel out of league. There are way too many people and way too many stuff going on for me to handle. (In fact, I'm slightly disappointed that I did get into a game as large as this one. But ah, that's what I get for not mentioning stuff like that because it looked like all the mods in the /in-vitational list were doing minis. *grumble*)

That's quite a lazy case. Quote all my vote hops, proceed with lazy newbscum case on the competing wagon. Hmmm??

FoS: Seraph

[VasudeVa]

Well, I obviously know I'm Town. And seeing as Tajo and a few others started voting for me, scum thought "Hey, there's a pretty cool guy to counterwagon to save our buddy.¹.". The fact that this wagon on me is building up at a suspicious pace raises eyebrows.

Yawn at the OMGUS accusation. Does anyone ever believe that scum are more likely to do that? Lazy, lazy~

₁:

In the event that Hoopla is scum, which I think is the case.

prev-edit: @Rhinox: Well, I can't just blindly agree to my mislynch now, can I? Also, where did I 'take offense' from the wagon?

[VasudeVa]

If you even cared to read properly, Those votes came way before Tajo's question. Plus, I never called them scum. I'm just using my votes properly.

Also, I have answered your lazy case(Which seems to be a lazy bandwagoning case.) waaayy before you even asked it.

Reread properly and try again.

[VasudeVa]

This is what I'm talking about. He's basically attacking everyone who votes for him(except for Tajo) by lumping them into scum.

I seem to have phrased that wrongly. I never voted for them for attacking me. I started voting them when they got wagons behind them. Those votes came before Tajo's question, which in turn I think started the wagon on me.

There

is

reasoning behind it. And the reasoning came from the people starting the wagon. I like to listen to people, helps getting people lynched/wagoned heavily. Wagons need to reach a certain L-# before people start taking them seriously. I help other people reach that L-#.

What's wrong with my vote there? That's a pretty standard votehop^tm.

[VasudeVa]

I did not accuse you of lazy bandwagoning, I'm accusing your

case

as a lazy bandwagoning case.

A person is wagoned enough once I think they have given genuinely Townie responses. I AM scumhunting. I read Hoopla as scum because of her very uninterested responses to her wagon, quite unlike what I saw from her in Elliland. In that game, she had a good Town game and was very motivated. Here, she's being apathetic and defeatist. I don't like it. And I'm voting for her lynch. I don't like her responses and everyone has been doing the legwork for me so w/e. So instead of wasting my time to post something somebody already said, I just keep quiet.

Also, this no-scumhunting bullshit is pretty silly. 20 players all scumhunting at the same time would be pretty chaotic. I'm already lost at this game and I don't want to promote more chaos which in turn would make me more lost-erer. So yeah, excuse me while I lurk but I did say I'm not a fan of large games. Ask Amished, ask Troll. (I have tried to scumhunt versus ooba and tajo, but people seem to be ignoring me so w/e. If people aren't listening to me/taking me seriously, might as well lurk.)

Also also, that 'he attacks people who wagon on him' point is bullshit. I think the proper term would be 'abrasive defense'. Not nearly the same as 'attack', doncha think? The only person I have ever attacked is Hero, and that's because I see Hoopla, who I perceive to be scum, voting him. Well, that's before you came into the picture.

[VasudeVa]

scumHoopla's not voting for me, or the biggest wagon, because then people will be all like 'lol, survival vote'. That would be a waste of a vote. In the interest of making the most of her vote she votes Hero. Something like, 'I voted for my scumbuddy, he's obviously town because I've already flipped scum and I'm voting for him. '

Well, that's the best she's got. At the very least, it opens up a can of WIFOM.

Plus, it looked rather desperate because the vote hop felt....unnatural from my previous experience with her.

[VasudeVa]

...

You can't be real.

Unvote, Vote: VV

Its like a damn scum manifesto

GOODIES:

Everyone can breathe a sigh of relief, SpyreX is town in this game.

And I love me some Seraphim...

Unvote, Vote: VV

See, I don't get it. People accuse me of not adding reasoning to my votes(which I have explained to be me listening to people) but people let shit like this slide and say 'ooh, it's <player name>! s/he does that'.

(Well, it's either that or it could be because I only ever pay attention to stuff that's happening to me.)

[VasudeVa]

VASSSSSSSS, ARE YOU TOWN?
HAVE PEOPLE ASKED YOU FOR YOUR META BEFORE???

1. Yes.
2. Yes. If it's not suspicious(like tajo), I point them to my (very unfinished) wiki.

[VasudeVa]

HMMM
HAVE I EVER SEEN TOWN YOU BEFORE?
ALSO
STILL DON'T GET WHY IT WAS SUSPICIOUS.

Well, you're seeing Town me now. XD.

I haven't played with (un)populartajo before,nor have I ever talked to him outside of games yet he claims to have a 'bad feeling' about a 'Town meta' of mine. If that's not suspicious, I don't know what is. Also, he dodges that question and proceeds to wagon on me.

[VasudeVa]

Because I wanted him to answer my questions first, which he kept ignoring. Then Hoopla came along and did a 180 from what I saw from her in Elliland and that's that.

I usually give people the same amount of attention they do to me. If I'm town and I have a wagon on me, I generate content like a mother$@#$. Then either I die or the wagon dissipates, in which I pay even more attention to the game unless people start ignoring me again and then I lurk.

--prevedit
@Elli: Well, I don't think I'm very popular. >.> I rarely GD and only post in games. Why he knows my Town game when there are a thousand other games and thousands of other players out there is suspicious.

[VasudeVa]

Herod, possibly Seraph.

Well, yeah. But there are more games I'm not in than games I'm in. Plus again, I don't think I'm popular(or am I?) nor good enough to have someone meta me.

Why is tajo Town? I might have missed it while I was skimming and lurking.

[VasudeVa]

Oh right scum motivation would be spreading doubt to a lurker, possibly leading to my mislynch in the future.

[VasudeVa]

Hoopla: Reasons for your suspicions. Go.

They better be

damn

good. Like, you better quote your statistics and shit.

[VasudeVa]

It's all in my Wiki. Check out NY111 where everyone attacks me for having bad theory.

Don't really have time to respond to specific questions, weekends are rather caustic for me.

[VasudeVa]

Vas, your Hoopla-connection theories are silly, though I don't find them scummy. The rest of you is suspect.

Your current refusal to answer looks like something your scumbuddies coached you to do. I do believe your claim that you feel overwhelmed in this game; the same thing happened to me in my first large game (last year's /in-vitational.) But if you felt out of place and overwhelmed and you were a townie, I think you would want to answer the question, instead of picking a fight over it. Only your scumbuddies telling you in your QT to stand your ground would likely give you the inclination to refuse.

I also don't see what you're referring to when you say that you've scumhunted populartajo. You've just asked him what game of yours he's referring to for your town meta. Does Tajo look scummy to you? You seem to be oscillating between him being suspicious and his vote being something that the scum latched onto. (I'm referring to your posts prior to Elli's question in post 587, naturally.)

WIFOM me this: Why would I ask about daytalk then? I've been particularly pissy about the scum daytalk in this game. Scum coaching is a bit more reactive. Scum generally would coach each other AFTER one of them fucks up, not because 1 dude asked another dude about their meta.

I have stated over and over and over and over and over

again

that I find his familiarity with my meta to be suspect at that time. Make fun of my rather odd way of thinking all you want but that was what I felt when talked about my meta.

[VasudeVa]

Also, do you honestly believe that I would go like 'OMG SCUMBUDDIES HALP. ONE GUY ASKED ME TO MAKE A 1 PARAGRAPH SUMMARY OF MY META. COACH PLZX.'.

Nope. Bad attacks with bad scum-buddy coaching theory. Hero is defscum.

[VasudeVa]

@Seraph: Well then SUCK ON THIS.

Vote: Zoraster

[VasudeVa]

That was jokingly snooty, btw. Ever wonder how we'll ever get to properly convey emotions/context over forum posts? >.>

[VasudeVa]

I have no response because I do not understand.

Lemme see if I got it. Soo, Me, KMD and Hero are all scum and, Hero is bussing me while distancing KMD. Did I get that correct?

[VasudeVa]

I have no response because I do not understand.

Lemme see if I got it. Soo, Me, KMD and Hero are all scum and, Hero is bussing me while distancing KMD. Did I get that correct?

No, actually, I'm trying to assume you're not scum, and I'm trying to help you out of a defensive position if you're town.

In fact, if you're town, Hero might be doing a variation of the classic "FOS:buddy, vote: town."

Oh, well okay.

Where did Hero FoS: buddy? I only see him commenting about KMD because ooba asked him about KMD.

[VasudeVa]

Excellent point.

Vote: Hero

[VasudeVa]

@Seraph: Well then SUCK ON THIS.

Vote: Zoraster

.......?

Your play confounds me.

You said that I was wagoning to get someone lynched. I was proving you wrong. (Then hero comes along etc.)

[VasudeVa]

Yes to backtracking. I liked ekiM's points on Hoopla. If she really does hide in her shell when she gets pressured as Town, then okay.

"Conforming" to your standards is not the main goal. I just put your name up there because you are wrong and I wanted to make fun of your wrongness. I wanted to wagon on zoraster to see what happens(And gather info etc. etc.). Then I thought DGB's points on Hero were good so there.

[VasudeVa]

Vote Zoraster

Clearly no one is as interested in Hero as I am.

[VasudeVa]

Seems like a slip to me.

Hey Spy, was that a slip? Y/N?

[VasudeVa]

I'm quite surprised myself. I mean, If I saw myself playing like that I'd vote me too. But that's what I get for being Town and different. Everyone hates me.

I wish I had buddies forced to ally with me.

[VasudeVa]

If I am being coached with this playerlist, I'll probably get good advice and NOT get wagoned. Also, being coached increases the chance that I'll be dissonant/ungenuine. What say you about that? Do you think I'm faking this because my scumbuddies coached me?

Be lazy and ISO me in NY111. Scum like to attack me and my 'bad' theory

(You say bad, I say different. >.>)

.

It proves him wrong because he claims that I'm using bandwagons to lynch people rather than what I explained to be a way to gather information. Do you think so too? What do you think I'm doing?

@Elmo: Aww thanks! Actually, I kinda consider you to be my mafia older sister since you modded my first game and all.

Plus I'm very unpopular with MS Females.

Well, one of them anyway.

[VasudeVa]

Ack, Beatles Mafia. I was actually as lazy as I am in that game as in here. But there were fewer people soo.

Read on, I get better after page 24. Again, I was slightly disappointed at the size of the /in-vitational I got because it was as large as NY111 and I hated NY111. So I just went to lazy bandwagon mode. I'll get better (I suppose).

Also, no votes to you because I wanted to make the most of my vote and get on a big bandwagon. I find that solo tunnelling one person with only your vote is kinda pointless.

[VasudeVa]

This is pure genius. I love it.

[VasudeVa]

I did not see Hoopla's breadcrumb(which was why I switched my vote to zora).

Vote: Zora

[VasudeVa]

Seraphim, I agree with around 80% of what you said. However, you are wrong and I am town. I realize that the previous statement is pointless in Mafia but this tunnel on me is very, very bad. Emphasis on bad.

I am not going to waste energy trying to pick apart your attacks on me when I know that mafia is an interpretation heavy game and that's your interpretation of my play. And it seems that my attempts to give you my perspective on my play is just shrouded with your heavy confirmation bias.

Anyway, who are your other scum picks? Who are my supposed scumbuddies? Why is elmo a terrible lynch today?

@Spy: Cool. Why? Also stop being lazy(Here comes the hypocrisy accusations gogogog). You're way more competent than that. Are you not convinced by my 'OMG IM BEING WAGONED' antics?

@Papa Zito: Why do we need more dead ooba?

@ooba: I don't understand your last post.

@Elli: Why ekiM and the FoS-es?

[VasudeVa]

Well, you're still wrong and if you want to stay in confirmationbias ville, then by all means stay. I've already told you that I cannot discredit your interpretation on my play simply because it is an interpretation. How the hell do you defend against another person's interpretation anyway?

No idea who's scum yet. Maybe zoraster, hence the vote. And here's another 'I'm using my vote to gather information' explanation which is inherently not wrong and I will be doing it until I find something I like/dislike.

[VasudeVa]

Greaat, now that I'm actually trying to be useful, people attack me for trying to be useful. Geez, you people are hard to please.

Vote: ooba

@Seraph: Daytalk. If you've played scum with Daytalk before, you'd know that I don't have daytalk. Do you honestly believe that my scumbuddies would coach me to be dense and play like I did? Don't you think that maybe after like, the 3rd or 4th vote they would've 'Yo Vas, stop BWing lol'. And when people started calling me out on Daytalk, do you think my scumbuddies would say 'Yo Vas, attack everyone attacking you lol.'

[VasudeVa]

Not necessarily. But if you've been under as much pressure as I have, don't you think that would have been a prime time to ask your scumbuddies for help?

[VasudeVa]

k.

[VasudeVa]

Because we're Town and he's not?

*virtual fist pump!*

Also, that votehop was lazy as hell.

[VasudeVa]

I have a post restriction. I need to act as scummy as possible or I get modkilled.

[VasudeVa]

Also, I frickin' love Grease!

[VasudeVa]

I actually played a lot like I played from D1 here to my D1 in Greek Mythology. The only difference is, I did not get lynched.

Greek mythology: Try to do something lazily, get voted to L-1, RAGE MODE, Lynch. x.X.
Here: Try to do something lazily, get voted, RAGE MODE, not lynch, D2: proceed to trying to do something lazily.

Come on, ooba, you nominated that game for a scummy. Surely, you'd remember it better, hmm?

[VasudeVa]

Now look what you did, I have to post now. D:

[VasudeVa]

...

No.

Let's step through this. Look at the night results. What do they tell you?

I....don't understand. Because he thinks tajo is the scum kill? Amished is on his earlier scum list and tajo is in his neutral list?

[VasudeVa]

Now look what you did, I have to post now. D:

Hai. How are you?
And this:

VAS
Did you ever reply to tajo's stuff about your past town meta and

this being all contradictory and stuff?

I didn't reply. I don't understand the bolded part.

Do you want me to answer tajo's question?

[VasudeVa]

First off, I don't understand what's so different about me here and in DeathNote's game (NY111). I was so lazy over there, refusing to post for weeks. In the Beatles game, everyone was worse than I am since it was so filled with VIs and scummy townies so it was easy to take the reigns and command town. Even if I was the one who made the losing LyLo vote to a Townie. Also, there were fewer players and fewer walls to read so it was a much better atmosphere for me there.

This game, I don't know. Everyone has either said what I think or doing so much better that I don't really feel the need to do much effort. Also, D0 dragging on coupled with that really long D1, was really bad for morale.

Again, I said this over and over: I was suspicious of him knowing my meta. I'm being very honest about that and while I now understand that it had bad reasoning, that's what I really thought at that time and I didn't really want to lie about that because I feared that I might be caught lying and be get lynched.

---

Now for Tajo's question(May he rest in Peace.): My meta can be summarized as this: I have a reactive play style that's slightly inconsistent. I sometimes play good(like Beatles Mafia as Town, despite the loss and Rainbow Unicorn through successful WIFOM.) but more often I'm D1 lynchbait. I tend to play better when I give effort...but that mostly boils down to how people react to me. If I'm being listened to/people take me seriously, then I play better. Otherwise, I give up and be lazy.

[VasudeVa]

Suffice to say thatI am being persuaded partly against my will of something akin to a too-scummy-to-be-scum-argument, except it's more like too-attention-grabbing to be scum. It's one thing in a small game (where there's little leeway for policy/VI/annoying playstyle lynches/misvigs), but in a Large game like this - one where scum-VV would know there's a Vig who'd like as not be perfectly happy to shoot someone who plays like that Day 1, Day 2 - I do think we would be seeing something less provocative, less 'full of buzzwords' to paraphrase Rhinox.

I was waiting for someone to say this! It would have been especially bad if it came from my own mouth since everybody hates WIFOM.

@Elli: Why do you think Tajo is correct about someone?

[VasudeVa]

I....don't understand. Because he thinks tajo is the scum kill? Amished is on his earlier scum list and tajo is in his neutral list?

Argh.

We had two green kills last night. We know that we gave the scum roleblocker and janitor, and we know that there are only two factions in this game, so that means one of those kills was town. In other words, we have a vig.

Now, review ooba's Day 0 and tell me what you see.

Ohh, I think I see it now. He kept pushing for the Mass claim, and then favoring Rolecop without explanation.

[VasudeVa]

@ooba: Why are you still pushing for me when you've had firsthand experience of how lazy I can be as Town in a recently finished game?

[VasudeVa]

My play in minis and large games differ though. I like minis, it's easier to keep track of games. I don't think I've ever played well in a large before. Then again, I've never been scum in a large before too. I seem to play better as scum, it seems.

Also, I think I've explained my disappointment at getting into a 20 player game when like, 95% of the mods in the /in-vitational thread were putting up minis. Why do you think that this laziness of mine is scum motivated/coached? So because I'm scum in this game, I'll just let myself be lazy despite having probably awesome buddies to coach me and knowing the existence of a vig somewhere out there?

More ooba votes, please.

[VasudeVa]

Do you understand what I'm saying? VV is scum because his motivation is not to scumhunt, but to make noise and bandwagon. I suspect he's being coached to do this. His play right now doesn't match up with his town or his scum play which makes me think he is being coached to play his "town" meta rather than butting heads. Does that make sense? Sorry if I'm a little incoherent.

No, that does not make sense. What this is, is refusal to back down despite being shown evidence/explanations to the contrary(of me being Town.). This is a massive stretch and it is getting old. What's the matter? Afraid of looking bad hmm?

What the hell are you talking about me not scumhunting? I've called you scum, called ooba scum, called Hero scum at some point, called Hoopla scum and bandwagoned the hell out of whoever. What makes you say that that is not scumhunting? I may be lazy about it but that does not mean that I am not scumhunting.

Also, here's an OMGUS:

FoS: Seraphim

Seraphim/ooba scumteam anyone?

[VasudeVa]

I don't have time to respond to everything, but my neutral response to Hoopla's gambit was due to confusion on my end. I thought the Janitor could switch his target until the reveal so I wasn't terribly excited that Hoopla had pulled off her gambit because I thought it had failed. I thought Hoopla had self-hammered too early for it to be effective.

ie. Daytalking buddies HALP!

[VasudeVa]

Where the fuck is the evidence to the contrary? All I see is people dismissing you as "too scummy to be scum" and that's hardly evidence.

Evidence/explanations. Whatever. You automatically dismiss my actions and interpret them with the scummiest interpretations possible. At first, I was willing to give you some le-way and tell you how wrong you are with your interpretations but I've grown tired of your tunnel and your recent chainsaw to ooba shed some new light of your motivations.

Just because you're voting a player does NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT THE MILLIONTH POWER MEAN YOU ARE SCUMHUNTING.

Yes. It does. Why? BECAUSE I SAY SO. MUHAHAHHAHAHAHAH.

Serious answer: Yes I am.

Serious-er answer: No really, I am.

Serious-est answer: Fuck off.

[VasudeVa]

Hey, SK. Let's lynch Seraphim's buddy ooba first, he seems important.

[VasudeVa]

1. false case on VV(not proven)
2. Theory attack????(I don't understand why this point is named so, ties in with 1, not proven)
3. Over-clarification(hardly scummy)
4. Neutral reaction to Hoopla's gambit(spin)

You cannot prove that shit. These are INTERPRETATIONS. How hard is it for you to understand that INTERPRETATIONS are hardly ever the same level as proof? You do your fair share of interpretations and this 'defense' you put up is terrible.

You've dumped everyone's defense on me into 'too scummy to be scum' when in fact it's much more complicated than that. Scum know there is a vig. I'm apparently coached to act like a VI by my competent scumbuddies knowing that there is a vig on the loose? Terrible reasoning. I've been telling you that your attacks are horrible, yet you cease to stop despite my explanations.

You're either stupid or scum. Maybe even both.

Also, lol at this. How the hell am I chainsawing?

And then he OMGUS'd ooba a while back, a wagon I don't buy.

Seems like a chainsaw to me! A soft one, maybe with kittens.

[VasudeVa]

I'm going to give you ONE CHANCE. ONE FUCKING CHANCE. to explain to me why you're town without attacking me or using meta. To prove that your lazy, bandwagon-tastic, OMGUS, idiotic play is indicative of town rather than scum. If you can cast enough doubt, I will look at other players. Fair enough?

Hahahahaha.

No.

Vote: Seraphim

[VasudeVa]

I do not need to defend myself from your scum logic.

[VasudeVa]

Oh Seraphim, you so crazy.

[VasudeVa]

Cheer up, it's not like you're the first scum to get caught doing a terribad tunnel on a townie.

[VasudeVa]

I do not need to defend myself from your scum logic.

Counter-point: Yeah, you kind of do.

Reading now..

I already told him how bad his logic is and how he is scum for it + that soft defense of ooba. I don't think I need to repeat myself.

[VasudeVa]

Well, the earliest response you gave was, I think,

Seraphim, I agree with around 80% of what you said. However, you are wrong and I am town. I realize that the previous statement is pointless in Mafia

so at this point I'm a tad curious what changed.

I agreed with him that my behavior could point to scum, but I warned him that he is wrong and his tunnel is bad. He continued to tunnel and got worse. Then ooba soft defense with little to no mention of his reads on ooba was the tipping point.

@Seraphim: It doesn't. You are looking for something that CANNOT be done outside of PRs. The only real way to 100% prove that someone is town is through sane cop investigations, confirmed masonry, reveal upon death etc. Why you are looking for definite proof that I am town is ridiculous. There is no way that you can PROVE someone is town by studying their posts in thread.

You can only postulate someone's alignment by studying their posts in thread and then getting a read on them. However that does NOT prove anything, it only gives you an idea whether they are likelier to be Town or scum by their actions/posts. That is not PROOF, it is EVIDENCE. There is a massive difference between the two.

This constant attack/defense wherein you rely on 'proof' is ridiculous. Stop it. This is not the first time I have attempted to explain this to you.

[VasudeVa]

Why, yes of course I'm interested in people who are attacking me! Why, I've played like lynchbait this entire game! That's my fault and I even admitted it to you(via Elmo's quote somewhere up there.).

However: I know I'm town. I know scum like to attack lynchbait. I'm lynchbait. Therefore, people who attack me are likely to be scum. Hence, attacking me is a scumtell. Also, that's pretty reactive playstyle. Aren't I consistent!

ooba keeps attacking me with meta, despite having recently completed meta that dissolves his earlier meta attack therefore making me suspicious of his lack of an open mind(which I saw from his town play.). You keep attacking me because you are scum and don't want to flip flop. I was suspicious of Herod D1 because he was questioning me, but now have a good Town read off him. Etc. whatelse.

Please tell your scumbuddies to attack me too, please.

[VasudeVa]

I agree, his defence is (at best) very poorly articulated at this point.

*cough* sig *cough*

[VasudeVa]

I'm not lying ooba. I was lazy early that game until people started voting for me. Then I went mad-dog at anyone who tried to get me lynched. HEY DOESN'T THIS LOOK FAMILIAR!?

In fact, I can remember a handful of games wherein some of you may have seen that multiple times. (*cough* SPYREX *cough*). As town, I go mad-dog to anyone who dare attempt to get me lynched. At that game, I was too new actually know anything about hunting scum(it was my first Town game, IIRC. And I think I just resulted to meta because I knew jack shit about scumtells).

Also, wow. You are still pushing a meta case 40 pages in?

[VasudeVa]

So why haven't you posted anything like the post ooba quoted hitherto?

I don't necessarily believe in meta anymore. I mean, they do work somtimes but back then I was in 2 games. Nowadays, I'm in like, 7 games. I don't think I can do anything like that anymore(especially now that I'm busier).

I think I have explained my suspicions of ooba throughout my posts. What is unclear?

[VasudeVa]

By lynchbait, you mean you play in a way that can easily be painted as suspicious by scum, but would not

actually

be thought suspicious by town? If that's true, why would town ever agree with scum attacking you - how does that work?

Not necessarily. True, Town would attack me too at some point. But I believe that Town is more likelier to be openminded, and not dense to evidence/explanations simply because: There are fewer scum than Town, they have a higher chance of mislynching, therefore they are more likely to keep a broad point of view. Herod is a good example of what I'd expect of a good Townie who'd react to lynchbait: Ask questions, then when evidence comes up just stop.

Totally unlike Seraphim here. He's either a retarded town tunneller or bad scum trying to suck up. Leaning towards bad scum tunneler caught red handed. Seraphim looks like he's just trying to suck up now, see how he's treating everyone differently?

[VasudeVa]

Sure, here's evidence(of you sucking up):

Yes, I understand that and I regret putting it in my post. It is incredible stretching.

Foot + mouth.

"Oh, I'm sorry I'm stupid Plum! Please don't vote me! I'll totally satisfy your foot fetish(if you have it)"

lol and here come the votes. Fuck me I was having fun with this game too.

"Oh no, votes! Please don't, I'm having fun!

I certainly agree that what Plumpom pointed out was incredible reaching but I would like to think that the rest of my case was formed on legitimate points.

"Please ignore my scummy arguments! Just check out my earlier attacks! And please totally don't use those against me!"

I can completely understand that but surely you can understand my frustration. I'm really just trying to get some sort of defense out of him besides attacks calling my case crap. If you evaluate his play from a purely reactionary standpoint(which VV claims is his best play), VV seems to be more interested in attacking his attackers rather than actually proving why my case "sucks" and then using previously mentioned "case suckage" to launch an attack.

"Oh, Elmo! I sooo frustrated! I was just evaluating his play but then he started going mad-dog on me! Please vote for him!"

@Herod: I'm just making sure whoever attacks me will pay for it. I don't do replacements. Replacements kill games.

[VasudeVa]

Sure, here's evidence(of you sucking up):

You cannot prove that shit. These are INTERPRETATIONS. How hard is it for you to understand that INTERPRETATIONS are hardly ever the same level as proof? You do your fair share of interpretations and this 'defense' you put up is terrible.

Exactly. I put my interpretations out there. It's up to people if they are convinced by it or not.

It's not the same level as proof, it's out there to convince people that if they think that the evidence works/makes sense.

[VasudeVa]

Your hypocrisy pains me. One could say that your self-defense is all INTERPRETATIONS which are not the same level as proof.

I'm asserting that it is evidence that I am Town. I don't think I said that it proves I'm town, it just makes me more likely to be Town.

[VasudeVa]

Your hypocrisy pains me. One could say that your self-defense is all INTERPRETATIONS which are not the same level as proof.

I'm asserting that it is evidence that I am Town. I don't think I said that it proves I'm town, it just makes me more likely to be Town.

Couldn't Seraphim say the same?

True. But I'm denying him as much as he's denying me so we're good.

[VasudeVa]

Generally, a good defense offers alternate interpretations of the case. So far, your defense seems to consist entirely of "Yeah, my play sucks, but don't lynch me because my play sucks. Hey, look over there, confirmation bias!"

I DID GIVE YOU ALTERNATE INTERPRETATIONS. You've kept lollygagging in confirmation bias land, which I am now interpreting to be scum motivated.

[VasudeVa]

Your hypocrisy pains me. One could say that your self-defense is all INTERPRETATIONS which are not the same level as proof.

I'm asserting that it is evidence that I am Town. I don't think I said that it proves I'm town, it just makes me more likely to be Town.

EBWOP: He offered some counterpoints to SK's case; did his counterpoints not make him more likely to be town? You reacted as if he needed to PROVE HE'S NOT SCUM.

His counterpoints were bad.

SK: Here's evidence that Seraphim is scum! *long good case filled with good interpretations*
Seraph: OH YEAH!? WELL, THAT DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING!!! ALSO, STRAWMAN, MISREP ETC.

[VasudeVa]

What makes SK's case on me more valid and "good" than my defense of it? What makes my counterpoints terrible?

You are attacking his interpretations by saying it does not prove anything. True, it doesn't prove anything but that doesn't mean his case is bad. SK could be wrong too(in the event that you are Town.)

It is also why I'm supposedly 'dodging' your attacks on me. Those are your interpretations and it is a case. I've told you your earlier case was good(I said I agreed with 80% of it) but that doesn't stop you from being wrong(since I'm Town). Also, you're completely ignoring new evidence(Scum choice of Vig + supposed coached VI me) that is evidence that I'm Town.

Therefore, I now think you are scum because you are still standing by your old washed up case while not listening to the new evidence that has come forth.

[VasudeVa]

Apparently, arguing with Seraphim isn't good for my health(I got sick today.). I'll go back to that argument when I feel better.

Vote: Zoraster

Lending wagon support for now.

[VasudeVa]

VASSSSSSSSS
YOU KNOW I WON'T STOP DOING THIS :p

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... 5&sr=posts

*slap* Ack~! </3. (What are you calling me out for anyway?)

@Elmo: I suppose you are referring to my 'playing like lynchbait' thingie. I played poorly D1, and since I'm not on their scumteam, and since I'm a scummy townie: scum would attack me...or something like that. But ehh, Town would attack me for that too but I expect them to act with an open mind(like Herodotus here.) and totally not like Seraphim(Although, I'm having my doubts on this too now.).

Lynching me is a bad idea though. .

--prev-edit:
Oh, nope. In fact, I'm hella more clueless when I'm town since I have no scumbuddies to explain stuff to me D:

[VasudeVa]

@Vas

: Could you provide the latecomer with a clear and concise case for why you're not scum and Sereph is?

Hello-not-reading-the-thread. Other people have explained it far better than I did and this question has been getting old. Basically: Seraphim has been pushing the argument that I've been coached to play like a VI to not get vigged. I mean, read below:

My counter-argument: I think that the scum team either figured that VV would be less likely of a vig target if he acted like he did now, playing up the VI aspect of his play and trying to convince people of that aspect, or that VV was expendable.

This is stupid because its stupid.

[VasudeVa]

KMD makes a lot of sense.

Vote: mith

[VasudeVa]

SpyreX needs to die. He's been way more useless than I have.

Vote: Spy

[VasudeVa]

I could swing for either with a slight leaning for zoraster, but right now I'm checking for wagon support on Spy. I really feel that this guy needs to die. I've done something similar before and I found that it had some success, even with deadline so close.

[VasudeVa]

I don't really think that DGB is scum, but I don't mind her lynch. Her play feels confused and mislead which I think is a Town tell for her since I read some of her games before and when she is scum she knows what she is doing. Zoraster is scummy due to his admittance of active lurking(posting in MD and not posting here.)

SpyreX is lazier than most people in here and people have been ignoring that. I know for a fact that he actually reads the games when he is Town, and here he doesn't look like he is. He always has good analyses even if they are sometimes mislead. Here he isn't. He was lazily riding along my wagon for a long time and then lazily rides zoraster's wagon as well. He needs to die.

[VasudeVa]

I have a feeling she's Town, but I'm not sure if it's right or not. At the very least, she's townier than zoraster(which isn't saying much, but you were forcing this dichotomy on me so here you go.).

This is where zoraster admitted to active lurking.

[VasudeVa]

Shock and awe VV thinks someone who think's he's scum is scum. WHAT A SURPRISE.

This is why SpyreX is scum.

[VasudeVa]

Vote: SpyreX

Die Spy Die!

[VasudeVa]

I don't get why Spy is Town for attacking Rhinox. People have been subtly attacking rhinox ever since D0.

[VasudeVa]

DGB feels real Town to me. I'm not sure what I think of mith. Spy is still scum. I don't see any attempt of genuine scumhunting from him as of late. His case on me is lazy. I think he just voted because he didn't like my playstyle which is kinda silly for Spytown.

[VasudeVa]

Fail post. Reposting for ISO purposes. Please delete the above post if necessary. TY.

---

So speaks another person who has not done anything ever since tunneling me D1.

Really, it makes sense that I suspect people who attack me. I'm really not motivated to keep up with this game and am on the verge of replacing out(I think I'll TRY to reread the thread when I feel like it and really decide from then.). And thus, I am goddamn lazy for this entire game. Of course scum would attack me, it's so easy to attack me, why you only have to make paragraphs like Spy's #1326 and now you have your magic trick! An illusion of scumhunting!

Then again, Town would also attack me but I consider them collateral damage.

@mith: DGB feels Town because:
1. DGB's recent argument with you rings sincere(thus Townish.). If DGBscum were being tunnelled D1 onwards by a dude with a red name, I feel that she really would have NK'd you N1. DGB would probably be Alpha-scum(ie. dominant scum) in her scumteam due to her reputation and you'd be dead.
2. She'd have daytalking scumbuddies to coordinate with. Her play doesn't have the slight bit of coordination that I can see, thus Townish.
3. She seems eager to display her opinions even with you attacking her D1 onwards. I'd imagine scum under pressure would lie low.

---

I'm consistently wondering why mith is still alive and not scum-NK'd. Why would scum kill tajo and Herodotus over mith? Tajo, I'd understand as a PR read-NK(due to the lurking). But obv-VTHerod over obv-VT(if Town) mith?

Hmmmm...

[VasudeVa]

Mine. It's VV/Andrius general Hydra.

[VasudeVa]

Yeah, scum didn't kill Hero. Nice try.

??

I do not comprehend.

[VasudeVa]

I do not comprehend.

I find that difficult to believe.

Who killed Elmo then?

[VasudeVa]

This page is the best exchange.

And, again, I don't think I really need to go hunt them all down when he's nice enough to do it again here. "I'm scummy, so people think I'm scum, thus I don't play and everyone attacking me is scum"

No, I meant scum are likely to attack me(since I'm easy to attack and all.).

[VasudeVa]

Vas, can you go through what's going through your head between 1332-1334?
I'm really curious...

THC. 8D.

I didn't really know coz I was just thinking out loud then, and Herod seemed like an obvious scum kill.

[VasudeVa]

Hey VV, how big is the scumteam this game?

Aldso ignoring my vote on you is your death knell. You die today.

Okay.

It's all on the first page, goddamnit.

[VasudeVa]

Nah. I'm just waiting for you to finish your reread before you replace out.

YOU'LL NEVER LYNCH ME FATE. NEVERRRRR~!!!

[VasudeVa]

EBWOP: *before I replace out

[VasudeVa]

Bah. I really tried to reread but I really can't find it in me to continue.

I request replacement

Final picks for scum:

SpyreX
ooba
mith
Maayybe Seraphim

[VasudeVa]

As for #3, VV TRULY BELIEVESZ that his mindless wagonnin is good play for town (at least from him since his reads are shit) and that being lynch bait is fun.

Ellieland is prime example of VV replacing in and being obvscum and being lynched. I'm TELLIN ya he's just fodder for LyLo

That's your fault. YOU DESTROYED MY SOUL IN ADVANCE WARS MAFIA FOR NOT BEING SCUM. EVERYTHING I BELIEVED IN WAS A LIE. /kidding.

That's an inaccurate description of my meta. We need a better sample size.

[VasudeVa]

SpyreX and Plum were obviously scum. Seriously, Spy never did anything of use for days on end. He was tunneling my slot for silly stupid reasons and refused to provide content during my time here. I think I caught ooba scum too, I think. Plumscum's continuous lurking was inexcusable as Town, and why everyone gave her the 'OK' after her claim was a 'Whut?' moment for me. Although, I really didn't have the Town points to get them(Spy, ooba) lynched nor did anyone ever really listen to me over the course of the game anyway.

Although, meh. I really have no right to complain after my horribad play here. I think one of Seraphim's posts quite adequately explained what I felt about this game. I just felt so apathetic about this game but I didn't want to replace out(until I did.)

But eh. Bah, scum. D=<.

Also. Hah, Fate. Hahahahaha. Guess you're not getting that best new player after all!

[VasudeVa]

I think this setup would've worked better if it was a Pregame PM vote to the mod about Town powers and scum powers. And then rolling alignments right after that, rather than the D0 vote. I think D0 killed my enthusiasm too.

Also scum being obvscum and calling me scum without even reading my posts, but that's just me. *raises fist* SppyyyyreX. I swear, your meta protects you more than you know, despite your own dislike for meta.