/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Elmo]

I'm pretty busy packing for the journey tomorrow - I'll try and check in on Saturday.

Vote: Deadline option #2

, on reflection I'm not sure the extra week on Day 1 counts for a lot, and we don't have to lynch very early to save up a week of extra time (later in the game, where it's arguably more valuable) although I'm pretty skeptical about people banking time properly.

Guys, a daytime rolecop is dangerous. Seriously.

Can people saying this give some kind of reasoning? Discussion is good; I don't see it.

The thing with janitor is that it's rather rare, and few people have played limited/no reveal games, so it's mostly theoretical. The value of a janitor to the mafia is the value we would have got from one reveal, right? If all lynches are of equal value, then if you've got a game with (say) eight lynches, then losing one lynch only loses one eighth of the information from lynching. However, if some lynches are much more informative than others, then it could be a lot worse. I actually find it kinda hard to think of one single lynch that totally blew a game open, but I think this is something that might vary by playstyle. I think people advocating janitor should justify how we can make lynches roughly as important as each other. I'm not sure about the other side effects that Hoopla mentioned. SpyreX saying "just consider both possibilties of them being town/scum" doesn't tally with me; you're doubling the number of possibilities to consider, I think that's rather a bigger deal than you're implying. I guess more discussion is needed.

And I'm absolutely behind no daycop but the rationale from that to assassin still confuses me: the daycop finds the pr's but an assassin eliminates them in addition to a normal kill. The only PR the assassin doesn't deal with well is the hider.

Daycop seems stronger to me, because they can investigate someone every day freely. The assassin has to be pretty careful, considering it's only two-shot.

Assassin makes the game very dependant on whether or not power roles claim. You would have to have a pretty strong read to justify using up a shot without that. I'm not really sure why you'd lynch

any

claimed power role, it seems like the opposite, in fact; I don't follow the logic there at all. I think if we pick the assassin, then rolefishing becomes a bigger tell. I realise the irony of pointing this out, but I think it's good. Assassin is an interesting option, it seems a little like "double-or-nothing".

I think individually the roleblocker looks weakest by a fair way. I don't like the effects of RB+RC, though. I would tentatively approve of RB+assassin at the moment.

If I was scum, my initial thought would be something like two jailkeepers and two hiders. I'm not thinking it through too deeply, because at the moment I don't really see how the best choices change very much.

[Elmo]

Suppo.

A question for everyone: Offhand, to what extent do you think the scum chose town power roles based on what they thought we'd choose?

The "game breaking benefits" only come if we have two hiders and I would bet money that we do not. Scum would have to be fools not to notice the synergy, and I doubt we have four fools as scum with this player list.

I think I would broadly agree with this. I think a lone hider claim is interesting, but it means if we want to consider them confirmed and for reals, we can't give out the roleblocker or the janitor (I think?). So we're looking at rolecop & assassin - I'm not discounting it, but I'm not really enamoured. I'm a bit skeptical of the value of confirmed townies early in the game, personally.

For what it's worth, my initial thoughts (ie giving out two hiders) were formed before I saw cross-hiding protected both, I assumed the opposite and missed the clarifications on the first time through.

The chances of having two hiders in the game be slim but them exist. If them be there then we be fools not to use them.

I really do not like this one bit. Acknowledging a possibiliy as extremely unlikely but urging us to consider it anyway is pretty sketchy in my book. I'm not saying you're pushing this exclusively, but still.

From memory, there seem to be people going "X is bad, so we should give them Y". That doesn't actually establish that X is worse than Y; we already know that giving them anything helps them, so in a sense "X is bad" isn't saying anything new.

I'm more firmly against the Janitor this morning for the following reason: Without the Janitor in play, we are at the very least able to keep power role claims accountable by the knowledge that there are exactly four of them.

This is pretty important and something I'd like to see addressed by pro-janitor crowd (if it even exists?). This is something I could easily see seriously pissing me off in the future.

Unless I'm mistaken, an assassin combined with the normal mafia kill can go through a single protection effect. Thought I'd mention that.
I think people looking at assassin as "extra scum kills" are looking at it wrong. They're not kills unless they identify a PR, which should be hard to do. It's wrong from both directions; they have to do a lot more than just use the kill, but it's extra bad when they do.
Rhinox's point about the assassin being weakened by most of the town power roles is interesting.

Discussion is slower than I thought it would be, I'll try to post every couple of days.

[Elmo]

As "pro" janitor versus some of the other combinations (namely daycop + assassin) I still don't see the inherent distaste in claims: if we get 4 and 4 exact PR claims it doesn't matter who was janned.

It's literally true, but if I were mafia then we'd almost never see exactly 4 PR claims, which is kind of the problem. If you mix in the fact that mafia know the exact makeup of town power-roles, I start feeling queasy. I think mith's covered basically everything else I wanted to say, so yeah.

I'm a bit skeptical of the value of confirmed townies early in the game, personally.

I really need this one explained too.

I guess what I meant to say was, like, if you confirm people late in the game, it makes the lynch more accurate than early in the game, because you eliminate a greater portion of living players, but a single confirmed townie doesn't help

that

much late in the game, and that's assuming the single hider gets that far. The only other benefit is being able to have someone speaking who is known town, and I don't think that's a big help. So I think a hider claim is not great if we only have one hider, and I think it's very very likely that we have either zero or one hiders. Considering it, I think I can see where Troll is coming from, at least without a RB.

Massclaim is intriguing. I gotta think that through some more. I can't really see how we're lynching more scum by it, though - but there's so many possible combos. Can someone, like, pick a random set of town power and show me how we win moar with massclaim?

P.S: I PM'd the mod regarding how role allotment to scum will happen - scum will get to choose allotment during the first 24 hours of day 1.

Not that I'm saying you're lying or anything, but we've all been asking these types of questions to the mod in thread, and getting responses. I'd feel better if the

mod could please confirm this information about how the scum roles will be assigned in thread.

Confirmed. It is in the rules.

That's interesting. Ooba, why didn't you check the thread first? I think I'd be more likely to PM the mod if I was mafia and expected that info to be either in my role PM or nowhere.

Time to get to something that matters.
TOWN

This is looking an awful lot like scum-you, no? You're getting all this from Day 0?

Does anyone have any further thoughts about the power of a Janitor beyond roleclaims &c?
I'm sorta losing interest, even thought I think it's important. Heh. Seeya!

[Elmo]

Just checking in because it's been a while.

My problem with a hider claim (assuming there's one hider) is it doesn't work with giving out the RB - let's say one hider claims, we give out janitor & assassin. Consensus seems to be that RB is clearly the weakest. The hider can generate a confirmed innocent per night, or trade for a single scum. That's pretty good, but I'm not sure it outweighs the problems posed. After a 1:1 trade, I'm not that happy. If you think janitor is not strong, then it might actually be best, I guess; I'm pretty negative about the janitor, though. I think it's playable, but not best. I can't really think

I can't really find a good plan with massclaim. I'm not in favour unless someone can point out something I missed.

Time's up, byee.

[Elmo]

Fair enough, I guess - I don't think it's strictly best, but I'm pretty sure it's not outright awful either. Honestly, I'd prefer for people to have spent more time on what to give the scum (shrug)

Troll, I assumed the hider would announce their targets before hiding each night, so we knew what was going on. If we give out the RB, the mafia can just block them when they target a mafioso, and falsely confirm someone, so we wouldn't be able to trust the 'confirmed' innocents. If not, then I'm not sure how we know who we're supposed to be confirming. I also think using a RB to kill the hider is stronger than you, but the above seems a bigger deal to me?

I'm worried about the very real possibility of there being no Hiders, and scum knowing this, deciding to claim it.

I guess this is a bit nasty; a tracker would help. I haven't worked through it, but the selection of roles given out if we have no tracker and no hider might be kinda strong in combination? Don't like this much, though it's nontrivial to fakeclaim hider if they're told to target a mafioso.

I am not a hider

.

Unless we get a hider claim soon, I'm probably going to vote RB & Assassin because time's getting quite short. Zorblag, if we got 0 or 1 hider claims, what power roles would you advocate giving out?

[Elmo]

The plot thickens. A mass unvote of roleblocker is probably necessary at this point? Unless we can't get enough votes on the other options, heh. I would not hesitate to use a single RB to kill a single hider if there were no protective roles, but on consideration I think that would require the mafia to have given out a hider and either 2 trackers & vig or tracker & 2 vigs.. I would be reticent to do that as scum, trackers ain't cops but I wouldn't willingly double up on the only info role when I could give out something like a weak doc, and two vigs is dangerous for obvious reasons.

Roleblocking the hider without killing seems a bigger deal. I can't think of a way round that. The appeal of the hider claim, to me, is in large part due to generating confirmed innocents. I think it's much stronger without giving out the RB. Maybe I am just missing something.

Please note that we have about

19 & change hours until deadline

, and no hammer by deadline means random picks.

As such, I will

vote

:

Assassin

which I feel quite happy with and

vote

:

Janitor

which I'm dubious about (it's hard to evaluate) but is pound-for-pound probably better than rolecop. I may be on again before I leave about 7 hours before deadline, but no promises.

I

still

don't like Assassin, but I have a feeling I might be outnumbered on that one.

I can't really find an argument from you in ISO; clearly if the assassin lands the shots, it's bad, but the meat of the argument for it is that it's fairly hard for that to happen. I think we're out of time, though :\

[Elmo]

Seeing as you just got a role locked in that a number of players (myself included) only voted for based on the pretense that a hider exists, I a bit muffed about it. In fact, I'm just going to tunnel on you until one of us is dead based on the idea that this was a scum gambit designed to influence which roles the town gave to scum.

I didn't expeect such a fast hammer, but in any event, Janitor is harmless (IMO). Breathe.

Due respect, but there are 19 other people in the game, also with opinions. I am deeply unhappy about this; but it can, and needs to, wait.

I think we've been fairly unlucky if any of the unclaimed are a hider, so I'm simply assuming we have none at present.
We now only have three options. I like rolecop significantly less; I haven't done the math, but I think it has good odds to make a negative impact. Assassin and RB are much more up-in-the-air, but RB seems generally tamer.

vote Roleblocker

Probably last post before deadline. See you from the USA!

[Elmo]

mith doing all the work for me. Ta.

Still think RB is weaker than RC for reasons stated. I pretty much don't see an interaction between janitor and any of the three roles. Broken record mode engaged!

amished: Out of the power roles, only a vig would really be confirmable (tracker is dicey in most cases unless they catch a scumbag, although it's possible), so giving out the roleblocker doesn't actually change a lot on that front. Say someone claims weak doc, they claim to have targeted someone last night, now what? All it means is that scum can kill their #1 target instead of the #2 target, and in general I don't think that's a big bonus. If they don't get a roleblocker, then they can still fakeclaim doc or whatever, we would still have to think hard about when/if to lynch them, and so on - it doesn't seem that different to me.

Lynching a claimed power role with the janitor around is unpleasant, but I'm not sure there's much to be done about that beyond tackling it head-on, or (really) how the other scum role affects it in 99% of situations.

However, if we give them a rolecop with their janitor; then what happens? They get to whittle down who's a PR or not, only hurting themselves if they want to fake-claim eventually. They still only have the one NK; and they can't roleblock the PR from doing anything in that case. They have to deal with it;

For my money, killing power roles is far stronger for them than fakeclaiming. I mean, I was in PYP3 where I screwed up badly later, but we lost a huge amount of power very early, and that was pretty much like being kicked in the face as far as winning chances went. The rolecop is not nearly as bad, but the fact is (for example) they might well not need to fakeclaim before massclaim; it's not just a huge advantage to me. Saying "they have to deal with it" seems really odd, inthat I would be very happy with it as scum.

allowing townies to play their most pro-town game which is clearly beneficial for the sheer number of talented people in this game. It'll be incredibly difficult for scum to organize mislynches if townies are allowed to play with reckless abandon for the sake of the town.

I'm not really sure what logical argument this section is supposed to be making, although the appeal to people's ego is fun

[Elmo]

Plus it's not like this is a big surprise.

Why are you voting in that manner based on the events of Day 0 while you were basically completely uninterested in getting views and so on during it?

Hoopla, could you explain why the "lynch all claimed power roles" part of your plan was a good idea, or link to why? I don't think I ever saw an explanation, and I don't get it.

vote kmd4390

[Elmo]

Scum

5). Elmo
- For "This is looking an awful lot like scum-you, no? You're getting all this from Day 0?"
- Can you give me meta where elli has posted a list like this before?

I was Elli's scumbuddy in Teleportation Mafia, where I told him I thought his rather blasé attitude towards putting people on his town list (in the sense that he did it frequently and for weak reasons) was probably a tell. I subsequently saw him as town in a newbie game I modded, which largely confirmed my view. I'm not really sure why this would land me in the scum section; I am

very

interested that Elli could get alignment reads but (from memory) had very little analysis to contribute. Two should go together.

DGB is absolutely 100% capable of pulling the aforementioned as scum. Anyone seriously thinking otherwise is doing it wrong, period.
I don't really like ooba's or Elli's play, but I don't think it's scummy; I don't agree with tajo's reason, but I don't mind it - I don't think anyone is strongly committed by it, so "scum don't like to commit themselves" is less valid.

I'm voting Hoopla cuz she's scum. Zoraster's pretty upset about it too, look how this is paying dividends already.

Let's restate. You think she's scum, clearly voting her is fine, but that is based on things that happened in Day 0; so you must have suspected her back then, but didn't question or pressure her, in order to get good info for later. To me, it looks a little like you didn't actually do anything until Day 1, where you're sort-of-required to throw a vote out. Do you see my view?

Hero's arguments for Assassin/Rolecop (easily the worst synergetic combo even given a Hider claim) remind me of Rhinox's arguments that Assassin is good because it reduces the lynch pool the way a Vig would. AARgh. I may join you thar, still don't have a full hold on the game, too many people with too many wallposts makes for mediocre recall. I'd rather vote for the player who would fit on his own scumlist right now.

This is largely goodposting, and I disagree with the last sentence largely because I suspect this is fairly usual for ooba. This Hero business is relevant to my interests, and I should look back soon - but let's ask the burning question:

ooba

, if you believe you have identified pro-town things to do, and used it as the basis for reads (i.e. townies are more likely to be pro-town), why didn't you take steps to do these things yourself?

Hoopla: Right, thanks. I misremembered a few things, that reads better. I think I would be more prone to not lynch a claimed power role; leave it alive, and force them to use the RB shots on them instead of another, suspected role; they can only roleblock one per night; they have to use the NK after RB is used up; and so on. There are few scum roles that get nastier when left alive, other than the janitor; leaving e.g. a claimed tracker alive might be helpful. I am largely trying to understand why you take this view when "standard issue" play seems natural - make them do the work so that they do the work, even though it's inevitable (although I admit you seem one to question accepted wisdom).

[Elmo]

Yea, CaffWagon more absorbing than I thought it would be.

@Elmo, Troll's experience with Ellibereth as town be that him puts too many town on his suspicion lists then as well (Pledge of Allegiance, for example) for reasons that no be particularly good (or transparent) and that him does a relatively poor job of re-examining.

Yeah, my observation was that he had weak but vaguely understandable reasons for his reads; when he was in Teleportation, it seemed to be more "it's tactically nice to consider ___ town, so I do". I think the latter is more likely at the moment.

ooba, that doesn't really answer my question. If you're town, and you couldn't do it, why is it suspicious not to do it?

I did suspect her back then. In fact, take a look at post 0 in my iso. However, Day 0 was Boring Mechanics Day.

This is not an explanation for not pressuring someone you suspect; why didn't you?

Thx Flay. At least one of these guys is scum.

Exactly or at least one? Why? I don't remember you taking this position before.

I could also wagon Hoopla. Something about "that's a good point mith, I'll try to allay your concerns" sounds too much like a politician. Infact, I will, VOTE: Hoopla

[Elmo]

This is a post to say hi, I'm back! and will make a real post soon, likely within 24 hours depending on how long I sleep

[Elmo]

I think the value of DGB's gambit is the difference between the value of the assassin and the janitor; DGB, you've said repeatedly that the janitor's very weak - why is that, and why didn't you contribute your analysis on Day 0?

Zito, I give up.

Hoopla, usually pretty collected and thoughtful in her posts has become more and more incoherent.

I think this is where I end up, and I'm not sure what it means of her alignment. Interesting wagon, but I would really have expected HooplaScum to be suaver than this (e.g. #484 is pretty cringe-worthy if it's a ploy)... but I don't really want to unvote someone for playing bad, and this close to (bankable) deadline, we probably need to get our lynch on?

This VasudeVa business doesn't look to be built on much, as far as I can see, although Amished's stance appears to suck. KMD is doing not a great deal, I could probably go with him dying still - mith, why did you think his behaviour was somewhat townish?

[Elmo]

I know it's not really based on anything he's done in game;

That's kind of my problem. I would be much happier if you went through what he's done and explained why he would do it as town; that is, if you think he's town, go and defend him.

I was in New Hampshire without internet access for a whole week.

This is a good reason! Can we now have your views on the janitor role?

Time to sheep ekiM, UNVOTE: Hoopla, VOTE: zoraster

[Elmo]

contrary to what people are suggesting, there is no need to know the alignment of the lynchee for wagon analysis.

That would seem to depend a lot on how the analysis was performed; when a bunch of people say it would make it harder or impossible for

them

, I'm inclined to believe them. This is what I meant when I said it varied by playstyle - you're only a small fraction of the living players.

VI or not, his play strikes me as scum.

Assuming he's playing bad, you are differentiating between the two how? (I don't think his play is that bad, really.)

For what it's worth, if he flipped town, I could understand someone being suspicious of you; I wouldn't agree, but it's far from unreasonable. The crux is whether your reasons are legitimate. I would agree with him that being that wagon-y Day 1 is fine, I don't see how describing your attack as "lazy" is AtE (and largely agreed at that point), I could easily see a townie thinking they were a counter-wagon, etc. About the only thing I dislike is the lurking; I don't think it makes him scummy, but it does make me more willing to lynch him, if that makes sense.

mith: I keep WIFOMing myself on Hoopla. All I can remember is that she's supposed to be good scum; this doesn't fit what I'd expect from her as either town or scum, clearly she is capable of it if it'll work out, but it just looks lemming-like to me. I guess she's experienced enough that it's just too bad, meh.

UNVOTE: zoraster, VOTE: Hoopla
Hoopla>VasudeVa>>>zoraster I guess? I forgot we were this close to deadline when wagoning zor, I don't particularly want to kill him :V

[Elmo]

^ who are you talking to?

[Elmo]

I think Hero is town here, fwiw.

...maybe you are too stupid to be scum. I will have to consider this development.

Lủlz. You should totally interact with me concerning him, because the lurking is the only thing I see as legit. I think I've only seen him once, but

sans

meta he just looks mostly null to me.

Just iso'd KMD. He does reek of anaerobically rotting lurker scum.

Correct. KMD remains a decent lynch for this reason alone, imo - but (although I usually hate this argument) not particularly informative, considering. Wagoning him is probably a good start to Day 2.

[Elmo]

I actually like a Hoopla lynch quite a lot after taking a look elsewhere.

[Elmo]

Does it kinda sorta have to do with the above? ^^^

It's quite likely the same. =)

[Elmo]

Plum: I actually didn't know what the slip was supposed to be, I just felt like wagoning someone who seemed background-y I will say that I was really surprised to see it got votes like that, it was probably useful for that alone.

VV: Except me, obviously! Oh god please be town

[Elmo]

How perversely logical, Hoopla

[Elmo]

In fact, given that last bit, I don't think Elmo should even claim unless he

didn't

target Amished (in which case we do lynch him and then Vig Kmd if Elmo is innocent).

This is me not calling KMD a liar. Where do we go from here?

[Elmo]

Hmm. Hypothetically speaking, the scum know how many trackers there are.

Nitpicky, but I'm liklier-than-usual scum rather than likely. In the worst case it's 50%, vs. 25% at random.

[Elmo]

KMD: What at what?

[Elmo]

What do you not understand about it? First part, second part, both?

[Elmo]

I'm not buying some kinda "ohh, the tracker tracked the 'other' tracker to the dead guy" so its pretty much vig or scum.

Yeah, I have to agree here, it's very unlikely. I don't even think it's likely the scum gave out two trackers as opposed to something like a jailkeeper. I am a vig, I shot Amished, let's have a conversation about that!

By the way, to think I'm scum, you have to think the vig shot Tajo, so "Elmo is scum for not shooting Vas/KMD" is clearly wrong. I had Tajo down as pretty solid town, and I don't think anyone voiced suspicion of him, either, so feel free to argue. Ironically, this is written largely for KMD, so I don't get accused of vig-fishing!

I shot someone I hadn't said I was suspicious of because a) I spent most of my time on Day 1 concentrating on Hoopla and reread on Night 1 b) there wasn't much that I liked happening on Day 1 c) I wasn't too vocal about who I suspected because I don't want to make it easier for the scum to narrow down the vig.
I actually think you would actually find literally any choice of shot suspicious unless they flipped scum, because either they'd contradict what I've already said or they'd be people you think are bad choices.

I've specifically said I didn't buy into the VV wagon, and why; I didn't shoot him because I don't particularly think he's scum, he's probably not going to sneak to endgame, and I think his wagon will be quite informative - if he is scum. I'd rather he was lynched than vigged, because we'd be able to see who pushed the wagon. I disagree with the reasoning, but if he flips scum, I'm probably wrong, and his attackers probably have solid reasons for it, and they'll look very town in retrospect. I think he's quite likely to flip town in the pure numbers sense (more townies than mafia), so I'd rather have the arguments against him spelled out before he dies, apart from Seraph I thought they were fairly vague; he's a pretty juicy mislynch, and I felt some people (can't remember specifically) were clambering aboard for weak reasons. I also remember someone from a previous game saying it was a bad idea to vig easy lynches, which kinda stuck with me. (Think this is Sir Tornado in Traditional Mafia.)

I was thinking of shooting KMD, ironically, but I wasn't sure if the lurking was a temporary thing; I think it was DGB who said he got easier to read as the game went on. I said near the end of the day that I thought a good start to Day 2 would be a KMD wagon, you can find that - it would hopefully get him posting if he was town. I also bought into what mith said about him, you can see me asking mith about that on Day 1. I'm not going to shoot someone I think is mildly town who may wake up and start playing soon.

Other candidate in my mind was zoraster, because he seemed to tunnel on DGB and not do much else; I'm not sure on DGB, but I would have at least commented on Hoopla in his position. That may just be how he plays, though - I can easily see him genuinely wanting DGB dead over everyone else, and you need to talk about pretty much her alone to get that done.
I didn't want to shoot DGB based on Day 1 simply because I thought we would bring up the gambit later, probably wagon her, and be much better informed for that. I've been WIFOMing myself slightly about whether she would pull that gambit as scum knowing there was a vig in the game.. I dunno, maybe.

I wanted to shoot Night 1 because we would have an even number of people alive if the scum kill went through and I didn't, I'm not sure about the math of shooting after that - I was going to make some comment about it today, probably propose directing 'the vig' and get mith to talk more about numbers. I shot Amished because:

Amished's early vote on me largely misrepresented how I knew DGB was fakeclaiming - I won't pedal the semantics here, but I thought his entry onto my early wagon was the weakest of all the votes, and wouldn't be a bad place to start looking tomorrow.

Amished, you say you want to convince Zoraster that he is wrong. This implies a strong town read on Zoraster (scum already know and don't need to be "convinced"). Why so sure Zoraster is town?

I largely agreed with this, I can't see anyone getting a town read on Zoraster based on the way he's played; it looked like a slip.
I didn't strongly agree with Tajo's reasons for suspecting Amished, but he generally has a good gut, which factored into it.

Think that's everything I wanted to say, KMD, I'll try and explain that post after I eat.

[Elmo]

Hmm. Hypothetically speaking, the scum know how many trackers there are.

KMD is a tracker. mith's reason for me not claiming (to hide info from the mafia) relied on the possibility that I was a tracker, for which there have to be two trackers in the game. If there aren't two trackers in the game, the scum already know I'm a vig regardless of what happens next, and I should just claim.

Nitpicky, but I'm liklier-than-usual scum rather than likely. In the worst case it's 50%, vs. 25% at random.

Doc/JK apart, there are two people who killed last night, one mafioso and one vig. If you totally discount me being another tracker, then I have a 50% chance to be a mafioso or 50% to be vig. A coinflip is not what I'd call likely.

There are 17 people in the game. If oneself is town, there are 16 other people, of which 4 are scum; 4/16 = 1/4 = 25%. So clearly I am more suspicious than random, and I don't object to that.

[Elmo]

I actually think you would actually find literally any choice of shot suspicious unless they flipped scum, because either they'd contradict what I've already said or they'd be people you think are bad choices.

No. If you had shot KMD, DGB,or VV and claimed that shot there wouldn't have been any doubt (on the flipside I would have lynched the hell out of you with a Zor shot).

Kind of my point - shooting KMD or VV directly contradicts what I've previously said. I don't know why you'd lynch me if I shot Zoraster - I thought he was scummy, you didn't, so I must be mafia? Whatever.

Seraph, we can definitely talk about VV - for what it's worth, I believe you're town. SK's vote is kinda interesting. I don't think wagoning on Day 1 is interesting, and 'not scumhunting' doesn't really grab me since there wasn't much going, and it seems a lot of people fall under that - but those obviously change as the game goes on. The part about attacking people who suspected him passed me by, I'm afraid - I should probably go back and reread, but I, uh, haven't yet. Reiterating your reasoning might be good,

DGB's jump to suspect me earlier and then immediate jump to believing me is kinda weird. Hmm.

[Elmo]

The jump to suspect you was because I picked up that KMD had rolebased info, so I rolled with it.

You knew exactly what kind of role-based info, though. He claimed "Elmo killed Amished". Given that you thought I was town previously, how does that translate to suddenly thinking I'm scum rather than a vig?

SpyreX: You've just quoted me saying that I don't buy into pretty much any of the case against VV. Shooting him largely contradicts that, or at least I would be getting flack for it.
You've also quoted me asking mith about KMD - If I remember right, I later agreed with him that KMD was townish. I could have shot him, but it would have contradicted something I'd said and I would still be getting flack for it in the same way.
With respect to zoraster, I'm shooting someone Night 1. I don't have a burning need to kill him in particular, but standards don't have to be particularly high - anyone who I don't think is town or interesting to keep alive will do. The fact that I'm willing to randomly wagon him should imply I'd be fine picking him, in my opinion. But yeah, I would still be getting flack for that too, though I disagree with it. Do you see a pattern yet? It's ridiculous. Anyway, this discussion is pretty much also a waste of electricity.

With respect to tonight, if I successfully hide my reads then I'll probably be blocked anyway. I dunno what to do about that.

[Elmo]

I'm totally betting that tajo was right on at least one guy btw.

Well, his stated list was KMD, Amished, ekiM. Two are town; why aren't you taking a closer look at ekiM?

[Elmo]

..oh, yes, you are. What I would do in your position is to reread his posts and maybe try and make a case if I found something, because I think having that as your only reason is not hugely convincing, albeit I think it's correct. If I've also managed to miss this then I apologise unreservedly >_>

I'm going to sleep now. :V

[Elmo]

BTW HAY TAJO AM I SCUM THIS GAME?

I HAVE NO IDEA. ARE YOU VOTING ONE OF VASUDEVA, AMISHED OR MIKE? IF YES, TOWN.

Oh, yeah, also that. Huh.

zzz

[Elmo]

I do not need to defend myself from your scum logic.

Counter-point: Yeah, you kind of do.

Reading now..

[Elmo]

Well, the earliest response you gave was, I think,

Seraphim, I agree with around 80% of what you said. However, you are wrong and I am town. I realize that the previous statement is pointless in Mafia

so at this point I'm a tad curious what changed.

[Elmo]

I agreed with him that my behavior could point to scum, but I warned him that he is wrong and his tunnel is bad. He continued to tunnel and got worse.

How does him continuing to push arguments that you largely agree with make him "worse"? If he's town and thinks you're scum, I think it's highly unnatural for him to drop it based on you merely telling him he's wrong.

Then ooba soft defense with little to no mention of his reads on ooba was the tipping point.

I can't find much detail on this, but looking through his posts, his interactions with ooba seem fine to me. Can you go into more detail about why this is suspicious? You do appear to have OMGUS'd ooba on an initial reading.

One thing I agree with VV about is this "prove you're town" stuff, that doesn't fly with me.

[Elmo]

Well, that point I don't think is semantics - not sure if I should let Vas speak for himself on that.

[Elmo]

(n.b. Obviously there is the proof/evidence thing which is semantics, but I don't really agree with the broader point.)

[Elmo]

I agree, his defence is (at best) very poorly articulated at this point.

[Elmo]

Vas: Mmm, I'm not sure the language barrier is the issue. Also, please answer my questions?

However: I know I'm town. I know scum like to attack lynchbait. I'm lynchbait. Therefore, people who attack me are likely to be scum. Hence, attacking me is a scumtell.

By lynchbait, you mean you play in a way that can easily be painted as suspicious by scum, but would not

actually

be thought suspicious by town? If that's true, why would town ever agree with scum attacking you - how does that work?

For my money, I pretty firmly believe Seraph is townish; I'm not sure what you make of that.

[Elmo]

It's a win-win situation for scum. Have VV act in a VI-ish manner. Players dismiss him as VI. He isn't a strong player anyway, so if he comes under heavy scrutiny, they can bus him easily. Also, if there's a lot of noise about VV in the thread, that might help overshadow the other scum in the topic and make VV a more likely vig target.

It's incredible speculation and there's no real basis behind it besides my speculation.

That whole scenario is so absurd if can only come from scum feeling the burn of being unable to get a VV lynch.

He's like Wile E Coyote; he's lost sight of his goal which is to eat the Road Runner for his sustenance. Now, he just wants to blow him up into smithereens.

That's how scum-Seraphim has become with VV. It's all becoming clear to me now.

VOTE: Seraphim

lol, very smooth. VOTE: DrippingGoofball

[Elmo]

Vas: Also, please answer my questions?

from #986.

I'm not lying ooba. I was lazy early that game until people started voting for me. Then I went mad-dog at anyone who tried to get me lynched. HEY DOESN'T THIS LOOK FAMILIAR!?

So why haven't you posted anything like the post ooba quoted hitherto?

[Elmo]

Mith + zoraster
YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST
mith really needs to die

wat

[Elmo]

VAS ANSWER MY QUESTIONS o9

(well, to the point that he made those incredible stretching arguments about scum-VV being set up as Vig-bait, even if he did take them back after the utter dsfgfsgfhskj.hfsaness was pointed out).

Hahaha, Plum's town

I'd say I'll do a better reread of the ongoing VV/Seraphim argument but in fact I have such little desire to, and such a feeling that at this point in the game it's not worth it at all, that I probably won't.

You could always revisit DGB? She looks to be the only realistic 'third way' at this point. (Glad to know I'm not alone, too )

I have to go out to learn to drive now, but what I certainly

will

be doing later today is a Zoro reread.

[Elmo]

Vas: Also, please answer my questions?

from #986.

I agreed with him that my behavior could point to scum, but I warned him that he is wrong and his tunnel is bad. He continued to tunnel and got worse.

How does him continuing to push arguments that you largely agree with make him "worse"? If he's town and thinks you're scum, I think it's highly unnatural for him to drop it based on you merely telling him he's wrong.

Then ooba soft defense with little to no mention of his reads on ooba was the tipping point.

I can't find much detail on this, but looking through his posts, his interactions with ooba seem fine to me. Can you go into more detail about why this is suspicious? You do appear to have OMGUS'd ooba on an initial reading.

I could maybe go for zoraster also. Unless he picks up, I wouldn't want him to see endgame, meh.

[Elmo]

The way this zoraster wagon took off is weird but I definitely can't complain, per se.
Bleah, more tomorrow, hopefully.

[Elmo]

post

[Elmo]

lol, the mith wagon is so bad.

DGB remains a really good lynch, I can't believe the same people who were pushing Vas for (amongst other things) rampant vote hopping haven't gone nuclear over her play in the last ~week.

Beyond that, I've kind of lost interest. I dislike Vas appearing to dodge my questions, but w/e on that. zoraster is also okay, albeit I sympathise a bit.

[Elmo]

^ why is DGB town?

[Elmo]

Meh. I'm not gonna be around again before deadline, we'd need another 5 to lynch DGB or 3 for zoraster, so this is probably necessary. UNVOTE: DrippingGoofball, VOTE: zoraster

~~~

Unofficial Count Nao

zoraster (7) -- ekiM, Plumegranate, Rhinox, SpyreX, DrippingGoofball, Kmd4390, Elmo
DrippingGoofball (3) -- zoraster, mith, Herodotus
mith (2) -- VasudeVa, Seraphim
VasudeVa (1) -- ooba
ooba (1) -- iamausername
Seraphim (1) -- My Milked Eek

[Elmo]

I stopped reading after KMD claimed so I have no comment beyond

sigh

, bad scum play made valid by horrific town play