/Invitational 11: Pick your Poison 5 (Game Over)

[Seraphim]

Hey guys. I have a role PM. I'm reading the game. Cool, huh?

[Seraphim]

Alright, so I'm only on page 2, interesting stuff so far but nothing that really shows alignment one way or the other. Definitely, definitely seeing why Hoopla is being wagon'd though, sorta. Her plan is definitely outside of town think parameters but I'm really not sure one way or the other if that implicates her or anything. Just thought I'd drop that down here.

[Seraphim]

Also, choosing Janitor was probably terrible but we'll see how it plays out. Probably better than the rolecop and waaaay better than the assassin.

[Seraphim]

I'm so glad we're getting useful catchup posts from seraphim....

/sarcasm

Oh shut up, you try reading through this son of a bitch, it's taking forever...and I can't get scum/town reads based on what's happening D0.

[Seraphim]

Alright, I have fairly decent reads on most players in this game. I definitely, definitely see why Hoopla is getting lynched; I would be voting her if scum didn't have daytalk...her entire "frazzled" act seems really forced especially after her strong start Day 0. However, you'd think that would be avoided with daytalk...but I digress. I would not be adverse to a Hoopla lynch at this moment in time.

However,

Vote: VasudeVa

Ever since the day started it's been minimal active-lurkingish content combined with minimal content vote jumps action

I don't like 'ooba's I have more scum reads than town reads' wall.

Vote: ooba

Also, you're reading way too much into that.

Vote: KMD

Let's get a serious bandwagon going on. Still interested in what ooba has to say to my point against him though.

vote: Hoopla

I want to see where this goes.

I also really, really do NOT like this post in particular:

Sweet. I'm the scum-driven counterwagon. I very much like the fact that Hoopla is voting for Hero, FYI. That looks a bit like something I saw before from a scumbag somewhere.

Hey Amished, doesn't this look a little bit familiar?

And he continues to dodge Tajo's line of questioning.

I have some other scum suspects but I'm definitely not sure of them yet. Pretty sure that VV is scum though. He looks like classic out-of-his-league newbscum.

[Seraphim]

Actually, I do feel out of league. There are way too many people and way too many stuff going on for me to handle.

I can totally tell when it's happening having had it happen to me several times before. Not this time though.

I also love how you keep referring to yourself as the "competing wagon" very smugly, as if it somehow justifies attacks on those on your wagon, like they're scum for voting you. Until you flip, you aren't confirmed in any sense, even if Hoopla swings today. Tajo is one of my strongest town reads ATM and he started the so-called "counter-wagon".

Nice OMGUS, BTW, even if you tried to cover it up with a FoS.

[Seraphim]

Well, I obviously know I'm Town. And seeing as Tajo and a few others started voting for me, scum thought "Hey, there's a pretty cool guy to counterwagon to save our buddy.1.". The fact that this wagon on me is building up at a suspicious pace raises eyebrows.

This is what I'm talking about. He's basically attacking everyone who votes for him(except for Tajo) by lumping them into scum.

Yawn at the OMGUS accusation. Does anyone ever believe that scum are more likely to do that? Lazy, lazy~

Nice appeal to emotion, which this totally is. You are leveling accusations on me based on nothing with the intent to discredit my argument by calling it "lazy" while avoiding the actual points presented. Maybe that's not OMGUS but that's exactly what you're doing right now.

[Seraphim]

Once again, the appeal to emotion.

Now.

If you even cared to read properly, Those votes came way before Tajo's question.

Plus, I never called them scum. I'm just using my votes properly.

...I don't understand the bolded portion. Why does this matter?

@Rhinox
I move my vote where I think it needs to be. Besides, bandwagoning is a legitimate strategy D1. I switch my vote to whoever has the biggest wagon that interests me, with the intent to pressure and in turn gather more accurate information.

Smells like a copout to avoid accountability for your votes. While I understand and even agree with what you're saying, there should still be some reasoning behind it besides "let's see where the wagon goes".

If you want to talk about lazy bandwagoning, let's take a look at your post jumping onto the Hoopla wagon: here. Looks like a serious double-standard.

[Seraphim]

Once again, the appeal to emotion.

Now.

If you even cared to read properly, Those votes came way before Tajo's question.

Plus, I never called them scum. I'm just using my votes properly.

...I don't understand the bolded portion. Why does this matter?

@Rhinox
I move my vote where I think it needs to be. Besides, bandwagoning is a legitimate strategy D1. I switch my vote to whoever has the biggest wagon that interests me, with the intent to pressure and in turn gather more accurate information.

Smells like a copout to avoid accountability for your votes. While I understand and even agree with what you're saying, there should still be some reasoning behind it besides "let's see where the wagon goes".

If you want to talk about lazy bandwagoning, let's take a look at your post jumping onto the Hoopla wagon: here. Looks like a serious double-standard.

[Seraphim]

Let me break it down for you, VV. You are

voting

players for reasons other players have provided and then

attacking

other players for voting you. It's scum play through and through. You're not scumhunting, you're jumping onto wagons to make it look like you are scumhunting. Then, you attack the people wagoning you while being snide and snotty about it.

Hoopla was probably going to get lynched. At what point is a person wagoned enough? When they get a claim? Are you rolefishing?

I can't believe you even have the audacity to accuse me of "lazy bandwagoning". That's hilarious.

[Seraphim]

Despite Amished's chainsaw defense of VV, I am not going to back down on him unless deadline hits and there's not enough support for his lynch. VI or not, his play strikes me as scum. I might get behind a zoraster lynch but I'm a little wary of a Hoopla lynch ATM simply because of how hard VV is pushing her lynch, though her play has definitely been...questionable. In other words, don't be surprised if I jump wagons to get a lynch going at deadline.

If people could explain why they feel the AtE or whatever else is scummy instead of saying "R U 4 REELZ YO?" (exaggerated) I might not have spoken up; but he's just too easy the way it's going right now.

It's not a scumtell, but it is a logical fallacy and is by no means an actual defense. I'm saying that this post and this post, rather than actually trying to address my points, he tries to dismiss them by saying that the points are "lazy bandwagoning".

[quote="VV]I did not accuse you of lazy bandwagoning, I'm accusing your

case

as a lazy bandwagoning case.[/quote]You haven't proven for one second that my case is "lazy" and it looks like you're trying to add the word "case" to somehow differentiate your attack on my play and your play.

You claim you're bandwagoning to get town responses from people and I don't believe that for a second. You're bandwagoning to bandwagon, to try and get people lynched based on who has the most popular wagon.

Herod, possibly Seraph.

Oh, so I'M scum now? Why would that ever be?

[Seraphim]

At the moment,

VasudeVa>>zoraster>>Hoopla

Though to be fair, I'm not terribly adverse to any of them.

[Seraphim]

@Seraph: Well then SUCK ON THIS.

Vote: Zoraster

.......?

Your play confounds me.

[Seraphim]

But dude, it doesn't work that way. Besides backtracking on the point you were trying to make, you still want Hoopla lynched, unless you're backtracking on that too and saying "well whoops! Maybe I don't want her lynched after all." Not to mention you are trying to "conform" to try and throw off my scum view of you, which is obviously "cramping your style", so to speak, and holding up your scum-hunting ability, if it exists at all, as you have described it.

...maybe you are too stupid to be scum. I will have to consider this development.

[Seraphim]

Alright, this constant joking around in lieu of actual content from Hoopla is starting to get on my nerves.

[Seraphim]

I guess VV can wait until tomorrow.

Unvote
Vote: Hoopla

[Seraphim]

For more clarification, the reasoning for changing my vote is that the VV wagon lost steam and it's entirely possible that he's just stupid as opposed to scummy like I'm initially postulated. That doesn't mean I'm abandoning the idea of him as scum, I'm merely temporarily moving my vote to help the most likely wagon along. If we had more time, I would not be doing this.

[Seraphim]

@Seraphim: you had Zoraster as worse than Hoopla. When you switched from Vas, why did you skip Zor and vote Hoopla?

I changed my mind and the zoraster wagon felt a little iffy.

[Seraphim]

hmmm. Well, that's interesting. If you wanted to draw the janitor, it's a little too late for that now as the janitor has the power to change whether or not he's using it right up to the lynch. I suppose we'll see what happens though.

[Seraphim]

I suppose. We'll see when we'll see.

[Seraphim]

My only worry is that you jumped the gun and didn't give scum enough time to use the ability on you. You could have pushed deadline a little bit closer.

[Seraphim]

My only worry is that you jumped the gun and didn't give scum enough time to use the ability on you. You could have pushed deadline a little bit closer.

Maybe - but I was worried that someone else would have hammered. This close to deadline though, scum would have already decided if they were going to use it, one way or another. There's no way they'd be in limbo. They must have made an active decision.

Well, if you pulled this off, I applaud you. Not many people are gutsy enough to put themselves up for lynch for only a possible benefit.

[Seraphim]

What, did you expect me to jump for joy? I'm keeping neutral until I see the results of the gambit.

[Seraphim]

I did not notice the breadcrumb.

I'm thinking that I'm going to start today where I left off yesterday and see where it takes me.

Vote: VasudeVa

[Seraphim]

Alright, I'm going to try and organize my thoughts on VasudeVa to see if I can come to a conclusion. Biggest aspect of his play: wagon-hopping and his eagerness to wagon-hop.

Sooo...Is it safe to throw out votes yet?

Vote: zoraster

Also, Hoopla's cake-y avi looks awesome with THC. Fooled me for around 3 seconds.

I don't like 'ooba's I have more scum reads than town reads' wall.

Vote: ooba

Also, you're reading way too much into that.

Vote: KMD

Let's get a serious bandwagon going on. Still interested in what ooba has to say to my point against him though.

vote: Hoopla

I want to see where this goes.

@Seraph: Well then SUCK ON THIS.

Vote: Zoraster

Excellent point.

Vote: Hero

Vote Zoraster

Clearly no one is as interested in Hero as I am.

If one decides to check the dates on these votes, which I will, it certainly is bizarre how much and how QUICKLY he changes his mind within a very short time window.
initial Zoraster vote: Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:23 pm
ooba vote: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:17 pm
KMD vote: Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:01 pm
Hoopla vote: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:52 am
Second Zoraster Vote: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:12 am
Hero vote: Sun Aug 22, 2010 10:36 am
Third Zoraster Vote: Sun Aug 22, 2010 12:11 pm

Note at the beginning and end of this chart how he switches his vote in spans of time measuring less than 24 hours with a few exceptions. It's also interesting to note that these quick switches correspond to the beginning of the day, when wagons are forming for various reasons, to the end of the day, when wagons are desperately trying to form. The longest period of inactivity was when he was voting Hoopla for almost a week(NEW RECORD), which was when, coincidentally, the Hoopla wagon was at the zenith of its popularity.

In fact, every vote he has made seems to be "testing the waters" which he basically admits in one of his posts.

I move my vote where I think it needs to be. Besides, bandwagoning is a legitimate strategy D1. I switch my vote to whoever has the biggest wagon that interests me, with the intent to pressure and in turn gather more accurate information.

Um...eek? Basically, his plan seems to be to join bandwagons he finds "interesting" usually with no precedent and very little reasoning. Then, he never follows through with these votes. He claims the reason he bandwagons is to gather "genuinely Townie responses" from the players he's bandwagoned. But he doesn't DO that. He just changes his vote so he can bandwagon farther.

For example, he is currently voting Zoraster, who he has voted the most times in this game. When he switched the second time to vote Hero, had Zoraster exhibited the townie responses he was looking for? Obviously not because he votes him again in quick order. Also, had Hero established those "townie tells" in the 90 minutes you were voting for him?

He also doesn't start posting content until he has to defend himself from the attack that I started on him upon my entry into the game.

So, we've established that VasudeVa is opportunistic, but the ultimate question is, is he scum? I feel this is a fairly solid positive.

His bandwagon-hopping method of "scumhunting" seems to be a fantastic way to test the waters, to see what wagons are most viable for him to jump on. If he was really trying to bandwagon for reactions from the player, why does he keep making statements that implicate some of the players he votes as scum? For example, his ooba vote, where he says his(ooba's) wall of reads was scummy, or his Hoopla vote:

read Hoopla as scum because of her very uninterested responses to her wagon, quite unlike what I saw from her in Elliland.........And I'm voting for her lynch.

Or his Hero vote:

Nope. Bad attacks with bad scum-buddy coaching theory. Hero is defscum.

Your entire bandwagoning theory/premise/strategy gets invalidated by your play. It seems very much fabricated to give credibility to a playstyle that is very anti-town. You never follow up your scumhunting premise, I haven't even seen any evidence of scumhunting besides calling your wagon and everyone on it anti-town by implying that your wagon was a counter-wagon running against the Hoopla wagon.

If I am being coached with this playerlist, I'll probably get good advice and NOT get wagoned. Also, being coached increases the chance that I'll be dissonant/ungenuine. What say you about that? Do you think I'm faking this because my scumbuddies coached me?

If I were your scumbuddy, I would actually try to coach you to "act as you would when you were town". To try and achieve that VI status so people basically ignore you, allowing you to basically do whatever you want.

In conclusion, I'm pretty damn sure VasudeVa is scum.

[Seraphim]

I'm not just willing to ignore him or leave him to his idiotic antics. And you seemed pretty eager to lynch him yesterday.

Besides that fact, Elmo is a terrible lynch today. And I can't drink. So. Yeah.

[Seraphim]

Hmm, interesting developments on this entire KMD-Elmo thing. I think that KMD needs to fully claim his results before I'm dropping any sort of vote down. The reason I wasn't interesting in voting him before was I didn't see anything scummy that he had done and his play had struck me as town. Elmo was a "terrible lynch" because I saw a wagon picking up on absolutely nothing. I obviously missed the subtle hints.

Also, VV, I am not going to stop attacking you until I am satisfied. You can try to dodge the case and yell "Confirmation bias" to high heaven but you haven't proved a thing. You can say I'm tunneling as much as you want to say but doesn't discredit my argument. I don't believe your play is town and your use of buzzwords rather than a real explanation of your play doesn't convince me. You look scum, scum, scum to me. Also, I gotta love how you're attacking, first me, and now SpyreX for being lazy, who, coincidentally, are the main two proponents of your wagon.

Anyway, who are your other scum picks? Who are my supposed scumbuddies?

I ain't gonna play this game, sorry. This isn't how I play. I can't name scumbuddies and I'm not going to name other players as scum. I'm a one-at-a-time kinda guy. You call it tunneling, I call it "focus".

Who do YOU think is scum, VasudeVa, and why? zoraster, certainly, but what's your case on him? Or what assessment do you agree with?

[Seraphim]

No idea who's scum yet. Maybe zoraster, hence the vote. And here's another 'I'm using my vote to gather information' explanation which is inherently not wrong and I will be doing it until I find something I like/dislike.

Why is zoraster "maybe scum"? Jesus Christ, this is like pulling teeth.

And stop screaming "confirmation bias". What parts of your play point you out as town, seeing as I've chosen the parts that "make you look like scum"?

Also, just for clarification, is KMD claiming to have tracked Elmo to Amished or is he claiming to have tracked to tajo?

[Seraphim]

I'll be honest: I'm still not completely sure what the deal with your wagon was.

[Seraphim]

Well, there, my question is answered. I'm going with the consensus that neither Elmo nor KMD is getting lynched today.

[Seraphim]

Elmo: I recall yesterday you said you were interested in engaging in a discussion concerning the possibility of VV-scum. It kinda got overshadowed by the Hoopla wagon and the approaching deadline. Would you be interested in engaging in that discussion now?

[Seraphim]

Also, that votehop was lazy as hell.

[Seraphim]

VasudeVa, it would be cool if I could believe you're town but you keep managing to up the scum quotient.

I really don't like how so many people are writing VV off as a VI, especially people like Rhinox who aren't proving any reasoning.

[Seraphim]

Why doesn't anyone want to talk about ekiM?

Let's talk about reverse Mike. Why is he scum?

[Seraphim]

Sorry, not seeing it. That isn't enough to convince he's scum as I could see that statement coming from town too. You just threw spin on it. Got any other evidence or is that your big "slip"?

[Seraphim]

There are no scummy motivations in his play, only apparent scumminess, and buzzword cases (opportunistic, wagon hopping, hypocritical, etc.). No motivation for scum to act how he is acting, drawing plenty of attention to himself. Perfect mislynch bait. He doesn't have to be super pro-town to be obv-not-scum.

Yes, but there's also no scumhunting aspect to his play either. ooba has cited some meta where VV does, in fact, actually attempt to scumhunt, especially when a wagon had starting forming on him. He has no clue who his suspects are, besides what looks like an OMGUS vote on ooba(I have yet to see why he ever changed votes) and a vague, half-defined suspicion of zoraster.

[Seraphim]

Rhinox: also, there's a big gaping hole in your case. Not sure if you noticed it yet.

[Seraphim]

I agree with everything mith said regarding Seraphim in his most recent post.

Also, ISO'ed Vasude Va. He's town. Get the hell off him.

Thank you so much for providing such detailed and insightful reasons that clearly and obviously prove VasudeVa as town and myself as scum. Yep, lemme tell you, you sure convinced me. I am in a right state.

[Seraphim]

Seraph: is anyone besides VV scum?

I could definitely see DGB as scum. Part of that stems from her useless Hider claim gambit. Another part of that is the strange exchange between herself, Rhinox, and VV. Rhinox defends VV, KMD calls it out, and DGB dismisses it. I don't think this is evidence of a Rhinox/DGB/VV scumteam, which would be highly ridiculous, but we do see DGB indirectly defending VV.

I don't think wagoning on Day 1 is interesting, and 'not scumhunting' doesn't really grab me since there wasn't much going, and it seems a lot of people fall under that - but those obviously change as the game goes on. The part about attacking people who suspected him passed me by, I'm afraid - I should probably go back and reread, but I, uh, haven't yet. Reiterating your reasoning might be good.

Alright. Whenever one plays with "Village idiots" or perhaps you prefer the softer version "unconventional playstyle", it becomes more difficult to take the actions the VI makes to get an accurate picture of alignment. One needs to look at intent and try and get a feel for the player.

I have never played with VasudeVa before. Well, that's not COMPLETELY true. We were technically in the same game but he replaced in after I died. While ooba has already posted a great meta case on VV, it's interesting to go back and check out this game. At first glance, there are a lot of similar components. There's the bandwagoning, the one-line posts. But there also seems to be SCUMHUNTING in his post. His intent seems to be to catch scum.

If you look back at his posts in this game, he seems to be bandwagoning just for kicks. A lot of the time, he can't even articulate why he's voting a player(i.e. ooba). Playing the "too scummy to be scum" card works to a point but unless VV is a troll(which I don't think he is) he seems to be making more excuses for his play than actually playing. Just check out his last post:

Also, I think I've explained my disappointment at getting into a 20 player game when like, 95% of the mods in the /in-vitational thread were putting up minis. Why do you think that this laziness of mine is scum motivated/coached? So because I'm scum in this game, I'll just let myself be lazy despite having probably awesome buddies to coach me and knowing the existence of a vig somewhere out there?

Excuses, excuses. I'm in a large game, I don't play well in large games. I play better as scum. Awesome playerlist, wouldn't my buddies be coaching me better.

And then he OMGUS'd ooba a while back, a wagon I don't buy.

Do you understand what I'm saying? VV is scum because his motivation is not to scumhunt, but to make noise and bandwagon. I suspect he's being coached to do this. His play right now doesn't match up with his town or his scum play which makes me think he is being coached to play his "town" meta rather than butting heads. Does that make sense? Sorry if I'm a little incoherent.

[Seraphim]

I'm listening...

Your flaw in your case on ekiM, BTW, is that you assume Elmo-town which isn't necessarily the case. That's all I have to say on that subject.

[Seraphim]

I don't have time to respond to everything, but my neutral response to Hoopla's gambit was due to confusion on my end. I thought the Janitor could switch his target until the reveal so I wasn't terribly excited that Hoopla had pulled off her gambit because I thought it had failed. I thought Hoopla had self-hammered too early for it to be effective.

[Seraphim]

No, that does not make sense. What this is, is refusal to back down despite being shown evidence/explanations to the contrary(of me being Town.). This is a massive stretch and it is getting old. What's the matter? Afraid of looking bad hmm?

Where the fuck is the evidence to the contrary? All I see is people dismissing you as "too scummy to be scum" and that's hardly evidence.

What the hell are you talking about me not scumhunting? I've called you scum, called ooba scum, called Hero scum at some point, called Hoopla scum and bandwagoned the hell out of whoever. What makes you say that that is not scumhunting? I may be lazy about it but that does not mean that I am not scumhunting.

Just because you're voting a player does NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT THE MILLIONTH POWER MEAN YOU ARE SCUMHUNTING.

[Seraphim]

SK: I'll try to avoid quoting when I can.

First point, first example:
That's just a misrepresentation of what I actually was saying there. It's certainly one thing to express concern at a growing wagon on yourself. It's quite another to claim you are the counterwagon and being driven by scum, which is what I was referring to. By claiming that his wagon was, in fact, driven by scum(which is already been partly proven to be false), he is able to make a broad blanket attack on everyone rather than narrowing down the players who are scum on the wagon. Quite different than expressing concern on a growing wagon on himself, eh?

first point, second example:
VasudeVa's main point against my argument during that point in the game was that I had made a "lazy bandwagoning case" rather than actually addressing the points I had made against him. I still maintain that that post is an appeal to emotion, or perhaps more accurately "ad hominem". Let's take a look at the post again:

Yawn at the OMGUS accusation. Does anyone ever believe that scum are more likely to do that? Lazy, lazy~

If we break down this post, he first tries to discredit the argument by asserting the following: "Scum are not more likely to make an OMGUS vote than town." This is also a strawman for the real argument, which is that he is discrediting my argument by calling it lazy rather than going after the points themselves. By continuing to push that I am being "lazy"(note the use of the word "yawn"), he doesn't actually have to answer any of my points because the case is "lazy" and therefore not a case at all and not worth answering. This IS appeal to emotion. Rather than answer the points or prove they are unsubstantial, he strawmans a few key points and says the case is lazy, probably made by lazy scum, therefore I don't need to answer the points because I don't need to answer no posts by no scum.

Also, I still believe VV is dodging my argument and that he has NOT addressed the points to a satisfactory manner.

Also, beyond this, how do the posts you've chosen prove that my case is "fake"? That's a pretty serious accusation. All you've done is prove that I've thrown some spin on the VasudeVa which hardly proves that my case isn't real.

Second point:

I've already proved why he's not scumhunting. I'll do it again, just for you. Go back, look at his ISO posts. Look how he bandwagons with no reasoning, with no follow-up. His pool of suspects is ever changing. He's asked a few questions of a few players, questions he hasn't followed up on, questions that haven't even been answered yet. If they mattered, don't you think he would tried to get people to answer them?

I will agree, though,that it's entirely possible that my "vendetta" against VV stems from a personal dislike of playstyle and personality. Maybe VV just rubs me the wrong way. It's a possibility. But no one has shown me any reasons for him being town besides continuing to push "too scummy to be scum".

Third point:

Since when is transparency a scum tell? I've had people come after me for

not

putting out that fire.

fourth point:

I've already addressed this in my 942.

Also, about your case...I don't see how you've proven that I'm scum. How do your points come together to prove me-scum?
1. false case on VV(not proven)
2. Theory attack????(I don't understand why this point is named so, ties in with 1, not proven)
3. Over-clarification(hardly scummy)
4. Neutral reaction to Hoopla's gambit(spin)

Where is the over-arching proof?

[Seraphim]

At first, I was willing to give you some le-way and tell you how wrong you are with your interpretations but I've grown tired of your tunnel and your recent chainsaw to ooba shed some new light of your motivations.

Also, lol at this. How the hell am I chainsawing?

[Seraphim]

You cannot prove that shit. These are INTERPRETATIONS. How hard is it for you to understand that INTERPRETATIONS are hardly ever the same level as proof?

I see the dots but SK's case fails because it fails to CONNECT them into a fully understood scum read, looking at the bigger game rather than reaching each part of it and saying "lol scum". I've connected the dots. Maybe not initially, but once I reread and hit Day 2, I could see how your play was coming together.

It's hardly a chainsaw if I've been voting for you and attacking you this entire time, love.

I think you're being coached to play like this because it will make it difficult for you to be lynched so long as they continue to play the too scummy to be scum card. I postulate that scum may even be using you to draw the vig with your play.

....

....


Phew.

Alright.

Listen.

I'm going to give you ONE CHANCE. ONE FUCKING CHANCE. to explain to me why you're town without attacking me or using meta. To prove that your lazy, bandwagon-tastic, OMGUS, idiotic play is indicative of town rather than scum. If you can cast enough doubt, I will look at other players. Fair enough?

[Seraphim]

I think you're being coached to play like this because it will make it difficult for you to be lynched so long as they continue to play the too scummy to be scum card. I postulate that scum may even be using you to draw the vig with your play.

WHAAAAAAAT? EXPLAIN NOW PLZ.

Whoops. Looks like there was a giant hole in my logic there, lol. I'm pretty sure there was more to that point so I'll expand on that.

It's a win-win situation for scum. Have VV act in a VI-ish manner. Players dismiss him as VI. He isn't a strong player anyway, so if he comes under heavy scrutiny, they can bus him easily. Also, if there's a lot of noise about VV in the thread, that might help overshadow the other scum in the topic and make VV a more likely vig target.

It's incredible speculation and there's no real basis behind it besides my speculation.

[Seraphim]

Yes, I understand that and I regret putting it in my post. It is incredible stretching.

Foot + mouth.

[Seraphim]

lol and here come the votes. Fuck me I was having fun with this game too.

[Seraphim]

lol and here come the votes. Fuck me I was having fun with this game too.

Your time of screwing with the town is over my friend.

lol in what manner have I been "screwing with the town"? I'm quite curious.

[Seraphim]

If we're going to talk about "janitoring", let's not forget that it was your "hider claim" that let the janitor role get through, aye?

[Seraphim]

I would love to call you scums right now but a closer evaluation of the hider claim and your repeated announcements that the janitor would be useless(self-fulfilling prophecy) make me think that wouldn't claim hider to push that forward. Unless that's all part of your elaborate plan.

Also,

Zito can you explain for me like Elli in babysteps because I'm missing it.

[Seraphim]

I certainly agree that what Plumpom pointed out was incredible reaching but I would like to think that the rest of my case was formed on legitimate points.

[Seraphim]

Alright then.

Confirm Vote: VasudeVa

I was willing to give you a shot to convince me otherwise but if your lazy scum ass doesn't even have the time to defend itself...

[Seraphim]

I do not need to defend myself

from your scum logic.

because my scum buddies will come and save me no worries.

FTFY.

[Seraphim]

So I've been told.

[Seraphim]

@VasudeVa: But how does that prove that you're town?

[Seraphim]

Now you're just arguing semantics.

Fine, then. I'm looking for some sort of

evidence

, some sort of sign that you are TOWN, I want to see some version of scumunting rather than this "lol bandwagon" approach or the "yur logix sucks lul" approach to the game. ooba has already pointed out several other games where you did so. Instead, you're making ridiculous connections, voting anything that moves for reasons you can't even comprehend, let alone articulate, and then telling

me

that

I'm

the ridiculous one?

[Seraphim]

I can completely understand that but surely you can understand my frustration. I'm really just trying to get some sort of defense out of him besides attacks calling my case crap. If you evaluate his play from a purely reactionary standpoint(which VV claims is his best play), VV seems to be more interested in attacking his attackers rather than actually proving why my case "sucks" and then using previously mentioned "case suckage" to launch an attack.

[Seraphim]

Not necessarily. True, Town would attack me too at some point. But I believe that Town is more likelier to be openminded, and not dense to evidence/explanations simply because:

There are fewer scum than Town, they have a higher chance of mislynching, therefore they are more likely to keep a broad point of view.

Herod is a good example of what I'd expect of a good Townie who'd react to lynchbait: Ask questions, then when evidence comes up just stop.

Lynchbait =/= town BTW. Now it even looks like you're repeating the same "I'm too scummy to scum!" spiel.

Also, the bolded is wrong. You seem to be indicating that scum are more likely to tunnel than town and that's just incorrect. Scum have equal opportunity to tunnel or "fish with a net", so to speak. Scum have one base goal and that's to survive and if that means tunneling or attacking multiple players, they will do whatever is required to survive.

Totally unlike Seraphim here. He's either a retarded town tunneller or bad scum trying to suck up. Leaning towards bad scum tunneler caught red handed. Seraphim looks like he's just trying to suck up now, see how he's treating everyone differently?

I love the ad hominem. Yep, calling your attacker "retarded" is definitely a good idea. Mind showing us some examples of "sucking up" rather than postulating meaningless attacks with any backing "evidence"?

[Seraphim]

In other words, rolecop + roleblocker + nightkill gives the scum three chances per day/night cycle to find the hidden vigilante, making it virtually impossible for the vig to stay alive and safely hidden. And ooba was the one who advocated for this.

At first, I wasn't buying this, but scum also gave us a tracker as well, which can be another avenue to identify the vig. Its certainly some suggestive circumstantial evidence, but I don't think its THE reason to lynch ooba today.

Out of curiosity, what is THE reason to lynch ooba? It seems a wagon built on wagoning for wagoning's sake.

[Seraphim]

Do you make your cases to be answered by the person against whom they are composed, or to convince others? Any strawman/AtE/dismissiveness on his part isn't going to prevent others from agreeing with you.

Both.

[Seraphim]

It looks like Seraphim decided it's only worth trying to figure out that someone is town if the other person cooperates. It could be frustration, or scumminess.

I'm open to other people telling me why VasudeVa is town. No one has. If even the

player getting attacked

can't articulate reasons why he's not scum beyond attacking his attackers, though, why should I be convinced otherwise?

[Seraphim]

Sure, here's evidence(of you sucking up):

You cannot prove that shit. These are INTERPRETATIONS. How hard is it for you to understand that INTERPRETATIONS are hardly ever the same level as proof? You do your fair share of interpretations and this 'defense' you put up is terrible.

[Seraphim]

Generally, a good defense offers alternate interpretations of the case. So far, your defense seems to consist entirely of "Yeah, my play sucks, but don't lynch me because my play sucks. Hey, look over there, confirmation bias!"

[Seraphim]

What makes SK's case on me more valid and "good" than my defense of it? What makes my counterpoints terrible?

[Seraphim]

So, in other words, my defense is bad because I've been doing exactly what you've been doing this entire game to me?

And that's not true. The reason SK's case fails is because, even if the points were valid, he fails to connect the points he has made. For instance, he doesn't say why me throwing a little spin on my case means the entire case is fake. All he's done with that point is prove that I've thrown spin on the case, which I would agree with...what writer worth his salt does that? '

I don't understand why the second point makes me look bad at all.

The third point is the only one I've found valid but over clarification is just something I do as town and scum because I know, as both town and scum, that if I don't clarify, it will come to bite me in the ass later.

The fourth point I offered a very valid misconception of the facts on my part.

[Seraphim]

We still have 6 days or so but we really need to start laying down the law here. People, in their next post, should post the order of preference for three of the current "wagons" going right now or even better, change your vote for who you want to lynch. Game is stagnating a little and this needs to be rectified.

VasudeVa>>>>zoraster(so THAT'S why people are voting him)>>DGB

[Seraphim]

There is a DGB wagon, even if it is rather tiny. 3 out of the currently available wagons...sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[Seraphim]

in particular, VasudeVa and ooba.

I dunno, three was an arbitrary number I picked off the top of my head.

VasudeVa>>>>zoraster>>>DGB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ooba

I am a long way away from being convinced on ooba.

[Seraphim]

I think, despite the omission, I have made it abundantly clear that I find the ooba bandwagon to be very questionable and incredibly shaky.

[Seraphim]

My counter-argument: I think that the scum team either figured that VV would be less likely of a vig target if he acted like he did now, playing up the VI aspect of his play and trying to convince people of that aspect, or that VV was expendable.

[Seraphim]

well obviously he didn't get vig'd last night and most people seem to think he's town, at least according to how the day has played out.

[Seraphim]

*sigh*

VasudeVa is going nowhere, man. "Too scummy to be scum" killed any sort of momentum the wagon had. Maybe I should look elsewhere and let the vig handle things. See if I can't bark up a different tree tomorrow and let things simmer for a while. I do agree with VasudeVa that, in retrospect, I've been tunneling waaaay too long on one player.

I'm willing to hammer zoraster. Looks to be a pretty decent lynch, far superior to ooba, especially with Zor not even reading the game.

[Seraphim]

KMD, VERY interested as to the sudden turnabout. I know they say don't look a gift horse in the mouth but is there something I'm missing that indicates zoraster-town?

[Seraphim]

Oh.

Oh.

OHHHHHHH.

Holy fucking shit.

What the long odds on a mith wagon you think?

[Seraphim]

It's also interesting that he plays off the discussion/argument between me and VV, refusing to take a definite stance and sitting on the fence until the general consensus emerged that VV was VI which really bugged me. He doesn't even say that he doesn't know which of us is town and which of us is scum, trying to play off both sides until the real consensus emerged, especially around where my wagon was picking up some steam.

He looked ready to jump on until other players started calling me obvtown.

if I decide in a few days that DGB won't be lynched, I will be switching to Seraphim unless something major affects my reads

but then zoraster comes along.

Though there is something interesting before we get too excited...zoraster seems at least somewhat aware of the elmo/KMD situation.

but are we completely leaving the elmo tajo thing alone?

I dunno.

[Seraphim]

Come on folks, it's not TOO LATE to lynch VasudeVa. Bleagh.

Unvote
Vote: mith

The zoraster wagon feels wrong and I think KMD has outlined the reasons for why mith is the right lynch for today.

[Seraphim]

Bleah.

Unvote

[Seraphim]

Vote: mith

or you got roleblocked. Either way, no result today.

[Seraphim]

It find it entirely probable that KMD was roleblocked last night especially if Elmo wasn't roleblocked last night as evidenced by the Herodotus kill(strange choice of kill BTW).

[Seraphim]

Sometimes people just get no result if they get roleblocked, at least in my experience.

[Seraphim]

My mind isn't changed, I just think that based on yesterday, the mith wagon is an avenue worth pursuing. After two Days pushing a wagon on a player people have pretty much dismissed, I'm just a wee bit tired.

[Seraphim]

HOLY SHIT I'M A DOUBLE VOTER NOW. 8D This is like the greatest day ever, I didn't know this was in the mechanics! Now I can vote for VasudeVa AND mith at the same time!

Mod: I think SpyreX, not Seraphim, is the singular person voting VasudeVa

Dunno what you mean - mod

[Seraphim]

Bleah, prodded...not feeling good, will try to post however.

[Seraphim]

Wow. I feel just absolutely apathetic about this game but I don't want to replace out.

That being said, a brief cursory glance at the wagons running right now...I think I would definitely go for a DGB wagon. I need to read back the last few posts, get some context...expect some more from me in a little bit while I try to get back into this.

[Seraphim]

Unvote
Vote: DGB

[Seraphim]

I will explain my vote later, no time now...you can hound me tomorrow but I think I've got a handle on this game.

[Seraphim]

And you're sure sure sure you weren't roleblocked?

[Seraphim]

Vote: HackerHuck

fucking finally people come around.

[Seraphim]

Mod: Requesting replacement