Civilization Mafia - Town Wins!

[Vesuvan]

Replacing corporateclaw - still catching up but around page 4 I'm getting ready to lynch Puzzle.

No lynch is stupid, people. Either this game is easily bah-roken or the scum get stronger each day that passes too. Not to mention that our increase in power would have to be sufficiently greater than the scum's increase in power to offset that we're getting killed off at

at least

one person per night with no chance of catching scum through the lynching process.

[Vesuvan]

Right, caught up now. Puzzle and Astronaut are the two most likely to be scum.

Vote: Puzzle

[Vesuvan]

Vesuvan, care to elaborate your reasons?

An extended pattern of behavior between pages 2 and 5.

If you want me to go into more detail, hold in mind that you're asking for a 4000-word post. It'll take time for me to write it up and time for you to read it, but at least I won't get BabyJesus voting me for doing so.

[Vesuvan]

Vesuvan:

<snip>An extended pattern of behavior between pages 2 and 5.

If you want me to go into more detail, hold in mind that you're asking for a 4000-word post. It'll take time for me to write it up and time for you to read it, but at least I won't get BabyJesus voting me for doing so.

Um, if you expect your accusations to be believed, you’re going to need to say something a lot more specific than that. It doesn’t have to be 4000, but it’ll need to be more than those 10 words.

Starting on it now - when I do this, I like to be thorrough, so it might take a while.

<and not getting the BabyJesus reference>

I'm referring to London Mafia and PeaceCity where BabyJesus voted for me whenever I made an excessively long post.

[Vesuvan]

Puzzle:

- Throughout the early section of the game, he seems to be fishing for roles in the sense that they exist in this game. Questions like:

Well, as I think we may break the game, it may be interesting to explore the option I suggested a bit more :
Open question : how long would it take for each of us to get your first unit ?

and

Correction to my question : who cannot build units yet ?

Are pretty good indications of this. He was bouncing off Astronaut throughout this.

(Medium strength tell on Puzzle; weak on Astronaut)

- The main game / extension mass claim idea (post 49, 51 and 53) is an ideal way to help the mafia set up roleclaims and give the town a mis-lynch depending on how the setup has been designed. Suggestions of day 1 mass claims in setups where the identities of townie/scum

could

be narrowed down significantly by such, but with restrictions on the mass claim that allow the scum ample "wiggle room" smacks of information fishing.

He even fishes for existence of unbalanced civilizations in post 53 by suggesting that there couldn't be any "cop/doctor" roles. (note that he did succeed at this, though I'm not going to highlight other players' errors for the mafia). The folly of his suggestion to mass-claim as main-game or expansion civ is shown fairly well by Raj in post 62.

(medium-weak tell since I've seen Puzzle do this when town before and he did reference Swinkee ruining his "trap"; however he kept fishing after that "mousetrap" comment in 49)

- Puzzle seems to be insistent on directing the town in a certain direction of play (here he is second behind EmpTyger, but I still lack a solid read on Emp at this time, though leaning toward scum) (ref. his first post for a good example, but he's followed this throughout.

(weak tell)

- Suggesting setting up a defined order (originally proposed by VisMaior in post 74) was leaped on quite quickly by Puzzle, and he carries it throughout. However, after being so strongly in support of this, he points out how easily this strategy can fail in post 88, yet still supports the idea completely!

1) Interference by the Mafia can take 2 forms, as far as I can see :
- kill someone who checks one of them : suspicion falls on who was investigated.
- kill someone who doesn't check one of them : higher risk of getting caught.
A lose / lose situation for them, imo.
And scums don't know anyway who built cops and not, so as long as we keep them in the blur, they may target people who didn't and that plays in our court.

This here is a list of good reasons NOT to pre-plan investigations. At all. Letting the scum interfere with a planned pattern of investigations isn't a good call. (Flay pointed out some of the shortcomings with this in post 90)

So for me, it's rather 1 or 4, with a preference on 1. The mass investigation scheme has no reason to be delayed, as long as scums don't know who built cops on night 1 and not. Those who didn't can just stay silent, like all who don't find scum.

And yet endorses the plan that gives the scum a great way to manipulate the town's ability to gain information at night.

When questioned on this, his defense:

Thing is : the scums don't have many means to know who made what (apart from our behaviours).
Even if we may not have a complete inspection circle, it's worth trying to get as many inspections as possible, as the scums are quite blind to who is effective on night 1 or not.

is completely irrelevant. WE don't know what the other players built any more than the scum do and the unknown information will result in the scum being able to potentially mislead the town in their nightkill selection, not to mention knowing whether the risk of a given player investigating them exists or not.

(medium-strong scum tell)

- THIS post:

The only problem I see is after a few nights the scum get a bunch of RB's and block our units. Still, they will randomly miss with the RB and we will hit them.

1. I'm not sure at all that scums get units (imagine each with a vig).
2. The problem is the same even if we build docs or vigs, except that cops will be more efficient in purging the town.
3. Even if scums can build blockers, this goes in the way that we shouldn't go No Lynch anyway.

set off scum alarms. Puzzle should know there are options beyond building units, yet he presents that as though it's a non-option. He should also realise that if the scum don't get any units, the town is grossly over-powered. He also takes the angle of armlx opposing the idea of a lynch rather than opposing the idea of an "investigation circle".

(medium-strong tell)

- Being anxious to lynch a lurker (almost quoting him directly there) by his own admission. This is more of a personal opinion which I'm aware that other players disagree with, but still worth noting.

(very weak tell)

- Post 153:

I want at least one name claim before the night. Counter-claims should be efficient in a setup where the number of available civilizations is limited, expansion or not.
And a lurker is just as good a target as others. I also happen to know Swinkee from MTGS a bit and for personal reasons, lynching him would suit me well.

Two tells in 2 paragraphs. Tell #1 is wanting at least one name-claim - fishing for information. Mafia need to get name-claims to help with their roleclaims, townies just need to see scum lynched. Tell #2 is wanting to get Swinkee lynched for "personal reasons" which he's unwilling to mention as opposed to citing a logical reason.

In the same post he poses a list of people for an "investigation cycle". I've already gone into why that's a bad idea - and for reasons Puzzle himself stated!

His response to valid questions being raised?

Puzzle - you've made that list under the assumption that everyone built a cop unit, correct? What about those that chose another unit to build, or those that advanced? Things to consider, these are.

Well, they can simply build cops tonight without saying anything yet. Then, tomorrow, they can just say they were just building, which means unable to give a result, and the problem will have disappeared for the following night for which everyone will have cops.

MORE directing the town to play into the mafia's hands!

(strong scum tell)

Astronaut:

On looking further, the case on Astro is nowhere near as strong as that on Puzzle and I had mis-read two posts the first time around. What remains is:

The presumption was that the town had better opportunities of development at night because of our superior numbers. However, there is a possibility that antitowns get access to roleblockers, which, potentially canceling out an entire townsperson’s development regardless of the time spend on development.

We don't know that the barbarians can build roleblockers, and he wouldn't be able to cancel more than that specific night's development.

I'm still not convinced no lynch wouldn't be the better option, but if you can point out a scummy-looking person to me, I'll consider joining your bandwagon.

This post should set off anyone's alarm bells, though considering it's Astro, not too loudly. He's suggesting outright that we have a setup where the individual townies are vastly more powerful than the mafia. He is then agreeing to jump onto a bandwagon if he sees a suitable one.

(medium-weak scum tell since it's Astro)

Incidentally, while looking back over this, Dybeck and EmpTyger moved to secondary positions on my "scum radar". Emptyger in particular for the comment in post 86 about not voicing any suspicions about other players, yet insisting that players don't lurk. HezLucky also gets a

FOS: HezLucky

over post 124 - the fishing part, not the flip-flop on the "breaking the game" part. Also, on the re-read I just don't see the justification on the Thok bandwagon.

In summary,

"un-FOS": Astronaut

(with attached apology),

Confirm Vote: Puzzle

Also, smaller

fos: EmpTyger

and

fos: Dybeck

[Vesuvan]

I wanted to see reactions before answering and I'm quite happy with the first ones.

Now, answers :
1. The question about who cannot build units : it is made clear in post #3 that all townies can build units. Had anyone come out saying the contrary, he would have been scum paying little attention.

How could this question harm the town ?

Not all townies are necessarily equal. Had there been any inequality in townies, the mafia would want to know that. Townies, however, do not need to know that.

2. Main game / extension mass claim :
What is the importance of giving this info to the mafia ? What would they do with it ? If we are all from the main game, they are stuffed, so they have to claim extensions anyway. Having people claim main game would help clearing them partially at least, for

0 cost as the Mafia's play is not influenced / improved by revealing this

.

This leads to giving the mafia more information about the setup before they are called upon to claim. Regardless of the setup, this is a Bad Thing

(TM)

as it gives the mafia an idea of what will or will not work. In addition, if we are dealing with a setup where townies are not created equal, giving that info to the mafia is also a Bad Thing

(TM)

.

Most importantly, there is NO SITUATION where giving this info to the town is a good thing unless we assume the game was designed to be quickly broken by a day 1 mass-claim. Having designed a few games myself, a game that lasts for ~100 posts is not considered a "good design principle". I tend to give a mod more credit than that.

By the way, the fact you would use this defense just reinforces my reason to vote for you.

3. "He even fishes for existence of unbalanced civilizations in post 53 by suggesting that there couldn't be any "cop/doctor" : look at post #53, please. I say "There is also no chance to out a cop or a doc like in standard games. ". I'm not fishing, I'm stating the obvious : our cop or doc aptitudes are defined by our choices, not by the setup.

There is no particular role to be afraid to expose. Misrepresentation ?

Do you KNOW for certain that there are no unbalanced civilizations? Ones that may be have better horsemen for instance, or better spearmen?

No you don't know that. Why? Becuase we ALL KNOW THAT IS THE CASE. How? What's "unique units", precious?

Misrepresentation? No; logical interpretation.

4. "Puzzle seems to be insistent on directing the town in a certain direction of play" : yes, guilty.

What direction ?

I insisted on the all-cop direction, the no-No-Lynch and the circular inspection. Obviously in scum interests.

The anti-No-Lynch bit is pro-town, I'll give you that. The circular inspection direction is actually quite well in scum interests. Thanks for slipping up there. All-cops direction may well play into the mafia's hands, but we don't know that for certain one way or the other, but it could well depend on the strategy the mafia worked out last night.

When someone is vigorously trying to direct the town's night actions, it's scummy. Period. When it's in a way that plays right into a path of mafia strategy, I want to lynch you.

5. Suggesting setting up a defined order (originally proposed by VisMaior in post 74) was leaped on quite quickly by Puzzle, and he carries it throughout. However, after being so strongly in support of this, he points out how easily this strategy can fail in post 88, yet still supports the idea completely!
And what is the alternative?

To let each person choose their own night actions so the mafia can't make their plans with known information (i.e. the town's strategy).

I know you're a Magic player, so we are both well aware of how metagaming works, and that a metagamed strategy is only effective when you know your opponent's strategy. Don't play dumb with me.

Why do you omit to mention the other options and the reasons why I reject them ?

Thanks for teh slip-up.

You never stated a reason to reject the option of letting players make their own decisions. You just said that you preferred the pre-planned strategy, despite pointing out how the mafia can abuse it.

And that's the most telling point: you point out how the mafia can abuse the strategy. Why would a townie do that, except to argue against using the strategy? It's suicide.

The answer is that there is no logical reason for a

townie

to do that.

The strategy has weaknesses but it remains the best available, in my humble opinion.

What alternative do you suggest and why ?

Opinion already laughed at and the alternative was one you were ready to go with in post 88...

...Until you just slipped up now, of course.

(replies to the rest of that gibberish to come soon)

[Vesuvan]

6. "Puzzle should know there are options beyond building units, yet he presents that as though it's a non-option. He should also realise that if the scum don't get any units, the town is grossly over-powered. " : what options ?

Advancing ones civilization to the next era, so as to get better units. This had been suggested and the benefits highlighted (post 11) before you ignored the option.

Why shouldn't I doubt it with the all-vig option open for scums ?

This is a little unclear, so I take it you're asking why you shouldn't doubt that the scum should be able to build units? Because otherwise the scum are vastly out-powered by the town.

The confusing thing on this point is how often your opinion has changed on whether the scum will be able to build units or not.

"He also takes the angle of armlx opposing the idea of a lynch rather than opposing the idea of an "investigation circle"" :

Lie

, I've kept on saying the opposite.

Perhaps you mis-understand what I say here (I'm going to be nice here and all and allow the possibility that you're not just lying).

When you responded to Armlx, you mis-represented him by indicating that he opposed the idea of a lynch, whereas Armlx was opposing the idea of an investigation circle, not the idea of a lynch. He was quite clearly on the side of lynching.

7. Lurker-lynching will : guilty.

8. My reason for wanting to lynch Swinkee is available now : I was certain he was scum in 8-bit (on MTGS) and have been outraged that the town refused obstinatedly to lynch him. Simple reprisal (

*scribbles Vesuvan's name on a piece of paper*

).

Not a valid reason to want to lynch someone

in this game

. That's not playing to a townie win, that's playing to satisfy a vendetta. That's a scum tell.

9. "MORE directing the town to play into the mafia's hands! " : fortunately, you arrived to save the town from this evil plan. Very strong tell indeed.

Now, what will you suggest that people build instead of cops ?

I would suggest people think for themselves instead of allowing the mafia to metagame against an openly presented strategy.

Now, if I'm scum :
- Why would I want to make sure that townies go for cops instead of vigs or docs ? You may want to explain why making cops is the bad strategy here.

Because allowing the mafia to interfere with a pre-planned pattern of investigations trivialises the value of the town building cops.

You're doing that "straw man argument" thing again.

- Why would I have opposed the No-Lynch strategy ?

Again with the straw man - that's not even part of my argument against you.

- Why would I want to optimize inspections by avoiding some people receiving multiples while others receive none ?

This one has been answered multiple times already ITT. This allows the scum to interfere with the planned investigation pattern by selecting who they will kill and/or roleblock.

I must really be a terrible scum player for you to have found soooooo many tells in each of my posts. Ah, tells and their power... Did you know that being named Vesuvan is a 99% scum tell ?

Wow, ad-hom attacks too. Why don't you just roleclaim "barbarian" already? Now you're attacking me personally and claiming that there are no such things as scum tells.

I guess we should all just shoot each other at random, huh?

In my view, a long post doesn't prove a point if the base of the argument is weak. However, it's a good way to make people believe it's solid whereas a close look shows it isn't. When you are unable to synthetize your arguments, it is the sign there is something wrong in them.

Puzzle, there are very strong arguments against you. You just convinced me further that you're scum with this bit, though.

A good player, which you know, recently told me that overstating cases is also a scum tell. Should I believe him ?

You're referring to a game in progress. The alleigance of that player and myself in that game is not known at this time. Bad Puzzle!

[Vesuvan]

Puzzle, I'm not going to have time to answer all the points in that really long post until tomorrow, but if you stop using straw-man arguments, you're going to look at lot less scummy (and attract a lot fewer really long posts from people like me).

In summary, the two main points:

- Building cops is a good idea, but pre-planning investigations is not. Your straw-man position on this argument is that I'm arguing against building cops, which I'm not (unless a civilization's unique unit was a cop/doc or something)

- All townies being equal is clearly disproven by the existence of unique units. Your straw-man position on me pointing out that not all townies are equal is to point out that all townies have the same basic units, despite me explaining that my reasoning is based on the existence of unique units.

There are also a number of weak tells in regards to you, which you respond to by claiming that "logic + analysis of reasonings and motivations > tells". However, analysis of reasonings and motivations are the basis of "tells". I'm simply quoting the end-conclusion, not each step taken to get there.

And yes, I have my eye on how eager Raj is to agree with everything I've said here.

[Vesuvan]

And yes, I have my eye on how eager Raj is to agree with everything I've said here.

IMO, this is just raj being raj.

Well, you may note a lack of FOS on that. While it is quite common to his playstyle, it doesn't mean I'm not going to take note of it.

[Vesuvan]

Vesuvan:
The problem I have with relying on “tells” is that, as a matter of principle, they can be the result of a misplaying innocent as much as a discovered guilty. (Although admittedly the convergence of multiple tells and the relative strength would be an indication otherwise.) But when I have an alternative method bearing a result- behavior which would not be done by an innocent- I see no reason to follow the latter course short-term. Which is not to imply that I am not strongly tempted to switch to Puzzle.

I use "tells" as a method to find indicators of someone being scum, and look deeper from there. When I see a convergence of tells that does not match a player's playstyle (I've played with Puzzle before and watched 2 of his games on MTGS so I know his playstyle fairly well), it gets my vote.

[qute]And honestly, I’m a little curious as to why you’re dismissive of my allegations against Thok.[/quote]

To put it simply, I didn't see it. Thok tends to put a lot of ideas out in the open when he's playing as town (this ended up getting me lynched when we were both town in a mini-game). I didn't see anything too noteworthy on the first read-through, and I wasn't looking at him as my primary focus on the re-read. If you can highlight your main concerns (i.e. the things you feel he should be lynched over, rather than "supporting points"), I'll look a bit more closely.

I’d also still like a response to my last question in [249]...

On what I mis-read in regards to Astro? A couple of his posts were very much mitigated by an earlier post by VisMaior. What looked scummy on the first read-through was perfectly reasonable on re-read.

[Vesuvan]

Vesuvan:
I understand that the points you initially thought indicated Astronaut was guilty are invalid. Nevertheless, I still would wish to know them specifically.

As is often the case in a mafia game, there are some things better left unsaid whether because they're irrelevant or because they involve giving away information that is better to be left obscure.

Sorry if that sounds evasive.

As for Thok, aside from the responses to [117], these are restatements of what I’ve already said.

<snip>You were strongly against no-lynching without any analysis (with what Puzzle called “blind opposition”) when I was advocating it was in the town’s best interest. But when VizM showed it wasn’t, you continued to defend that idea.

You accused me of “flooding with numbers” when you defended VizM’s numbers, again without any analysis, in [67]. Yet not only were my revised numbers correct and VizM’s wrong, but you were portraying the act of analysis as inherently suspicious.

Thok’s only defense was “laziness” in [102], which doesn’t explain his behavior at all- especially the timing of his switch in advocacy.

Yep, flipping between opposing no lynch and supporting it is suspicious, but not all that strong an indicator. People do change their minds. I'd consider this a fair reason to look more closely at someone, but not to lynch someone in the absence of a deadline or something more tangible.

The laziness side of things is quite believable. While Vis was going through complex maths, this wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone react badly to your method of posting [post] references en-masse. When combined with maths, it makes your posts kind of difficult to read unless you have plenty of time and 2 windows open - one on your post and the other with the entire thread for review purposes.

Actually, given that this was a contributing factor to your lynch in the last game I played with you in, that point raises my eyebrow toward you moreso than toward Thok.

The vague instructions to refer to N128 seem to be baseless attempts to focus suspicion onto me for actions in another game. Because I’m not sure how else to interpret your “logic”, since I do not genuinely believe you believe yourself. I mean, you’re basically saying that since I would act as a protown when I’m guilty, therefore if I act protown I’m suspicious. Likewise the reference to Hospital mafia, which I still don’t see any point to have mentioned.<snip>

The reference to N128 has not been clarified, although he has elaborated about the Hospital mafia.

That actually sounded to me like you were intentionally twisting his words. I wouldn't have answered that point either.

However, the fact he has played with you before does make the "drowning him with numbers" comment a fair bit fishier, though I'd need to check back on how that was phrased (i.e. as an attack or as a comment of frustration)

And as for that random FoS in my first post, it was intended as 98% humor, but with the realization that if you were guilty, you might overreact. And I don’t see how you’d be reacting the way you did if you were innocent.<snip>

and

<snip>If you didn't want me to jump on you for a random FOS, perhaps you should have included a smiley or a [/sarcasm] comment? It seemed extremely weird, especially coming in a post where you specifically tried to kill off all discussion of suspicions, except for a no lynch strategy.

Oh, I was quite interested in whether you would jump on me or not. I believe you saw an excuse to begin focusing suspicion onto me and ran with it.
Let me put this another way. Let’s say I “random vote: Thok”ed. Would that have excused your “jumping on me”? Moreover, you were in Mafia 128. You immediately recognized my reference. And you’ve been in enough other games with me to be aware of my style. Yet nevertheless you made [21]- and I cannot see any way you would make that post as an innocent.

His jumping on the FOS was scummy. However, he does have a point with your post trying to kill off all discussion other than a no-lynch strategy (It's a large part of what got you my FOS). I think this is something to make him worth looking at more closely, but not "something he should be lynched over rather than 'supporting evidence'".

If you will, a convergence that does not match a player’s playstyle. I specifically chose Thok to random FOS because of our prior games (especially N128). I realized that there were a number of ways he might have reacted to it; most would be ambiguous as to his alignment, but a few responses would make sense only if he were innocent.

Agreed, and (working from memory as I'm trying to type this quicly), his response looked ambiguous.

<snip>Finally, I've said this before, but I'm not that useful of a day 1 player, especially protown. I need information to catch people, and right now there isn't that much to go on.

I played with you in the Poker mini. I *know* you are more than capable of analyzing and exploring unusual mechanics and setups on Day 1.

A lie.

Are you saying that you lied about him being able to analyze unusual setups as of day 1? Because I recall him being able to do so in a mini game I played with him in previously. Sure, we were both on the wrong track, but he was able to contribute to analysis of a rather unusual situation of 3 mason groups in a mini-game.

While I haven't read up on the Poker mini, that doesn't exactly make me more comfortable in following your lead there.

His rebuttal, which I hadn’t yet replied to, was

<snip>I'll point out that I was scum there, which means I had a decent amount of information to start the game, more so than I do now.<snip>

Which is at best misleading and at worst an outright lie. In fact, one of the postgame critiques I made was that the mafia did *not* have the advantage of information it traditionally has [M188.280].

Again, I haven't read Mini 188, but was that just your stated opinion or his too?

Because if that was only your stated opinion, that gets dangerously close to misrepresentation.

And one doesn’t need to go beyond this thread to find him behaving thusly in this game:

EmpTyger: What about wonders? What about barbarians developing stuff (they almost certainly will have a faster tech tree than us, or get better units than us at each stage). What about a possible time limit? I can imagine no-lynch + building units being disasterous if we're not careful.

I'm also metagaming a little-I was in Sinister Overlord's last game, which got broken fairly easily. I'm assuming that he's spent more time polishing up this game.

Finally, fundamentally all protown players are roughly the same as far as I can tell. Discussing suspicions only hurts when it reveals power roles, but as far as I can tell, everybody and nobody is a power role. (That is, everybody has powers, but nobody is that much more valuable than anybody).

No-lynch might be the right play for today, but I still think discussion is useful.

Keeping my vote on for now.

Okay, now you've got me confused, what "thusly" behavior am I supposed to be looking at there? This seems like a typical Thok post.

EmpTyger, my bandwagon has taken way too long to develop, so either I'm scum and my partners are trying to avoid voting me or our scum consists of some hard-core lurkers. Since I know I'm innocent (I haven't gotten any support from anybody), I'm going to spend some time looking for lurkers. Let's try

unvote, vote swinkee FOS MOS, coporate claw

, with possibly some others to be added to the lurker list.<snip>

As hinted in [128], something about this bothered me:
What conclusion could Thok be trying to draw? He himself is implicitly admitting that he’s acted suspicious enough to be voted, even though he otherwise is denying my accusations as baseless. In fact, he *unvotes* me, all but conceding that I’m correct to be suspecting him; in fact, in [161] he considers me one of the best candidates to edit an investigatory list! His line of reasoning makes no sense- if hypothetically my accusations were baseless, then wouldn’t that be the best explanation for why Thok wasn’t receiving votes? So if they’re correct, then, well, doesn’t that make Thok scum? So why make ?

unless it’s a disguised warning to his fellow mafia

. And read that way, the line “I’m scum and my partners...” jumps out. In fact, given that he in [136] attacked inhim for following this logic, it makes even less sense.
I didn’t mention anything at the time because I was wanting to see reactions.

That post is the one I found most suspicious from Thok when reading over the thread. However, it is quite likely that this is a case of Thok trying to analyze the game-state (i.e. several lurkers and a very slow-moving bandwagon on him) and trying to do something similar to what I tried to do in the mini game we were in together (can't remember the number OTOH - I'll check when I have some more time). I got a bandwagon started on me so I could observe the voting pattern on what I knew to be a bandwagon against a pro-town player. Of course, I was a mason in that game, and that's not a trick I would be likely to try otherwise. However, the path of reasoning is valid.

What doesn't make sense about it is his unvoting you and considering you a trustworthy townie. It doesn't make sense to the point that it doesn't make sense from a townie perspective or a scum perspective.

Also, you're taking a lot of phrases completely out of context there.

Not that more evidence is needed, but Thok is the only one who has rushed to attack Puzzle or Astronaut without any elaboration from Vesuvan<snip>

This I admitted is circumstantial; an innocent might also have behaved this way. But compounded with the other evidence against him, my suspicions are only solidified.

Okay then.

I'll update "I don't see your reasoning for the Thok bandwagon" to "I disagree with your reasoning on the Thok bandwagon". However, since I already FOS'ed you and you both deserve it,

FOS: Thok

[Vesuvan]

Okay, with that clarification I can see some of the argument against Thok, but it doesn't look strong enough to lynch him today IMO. The problem as I see it with the case against him is that a lot of his actions that are drawing the most suspicion for not making any sense as a townie also don't make any sense for scum either.

Also, if Puzzle is going to claim, I'd say now's the time to do it.

[Vesuvan]

Puzzle:
If you’re not going to response further to the points brought up (especially those of mine) you might as well claim; you’re easily one of the most suspicious players, and currently the one who would be easiest to lynch. If you are going to be claiming, however, I would ask that you wait until HezL clarifies [284]...


HezL:
...Which you should do very quickly.

FOS: Emptyger

Why do you want him to clarify something that confirms him as a townie?

Still thinking on the Puzzle issue, but thinking Emp may be the best lynch if not Puzzle.

[Vesuvan]

@Emp: No, I'm not going to explain how Hez has almost certainly confirmed himself as a townie because that falls smack in the realm of "info that should not be made public". Since I've brought that point up before for a different reason (irrelevant rather than potentially harmful),

Unvote, Vote: Emptyger

[Vesuvan]

Emp, HezL should not explain his comment. That falls under being "bad for the town".

My telling you that my findings on Astro were irrelevant was because when taken into context they

were

irrelevant. Discussing irrelevant points at length only serves to derail the town (unless of course, the town is sitting around doing nothing, which was not the case)

[Vesuvan]

[quote=Mr Flay]does that mean everyone's PMs are worded the same? I doubt it... [/quote]

O... kay...

The townie role PM's are structured in such a way that suggests that, except for the "flavor text" bit being different, all townie role PM's are very similar.

I think you just slipped up, Flay. Either you're scum, or you have a non-standard townie role PM, or I'm reading too much into one sentence in the townie role PM that I would assume is in the other townie role PM's which suggests a standardised structure.

Unvote, Vote: Mr Flay

[Vesuvan]

Easy. He *is* a barbarian but doesn't want to be lynched. C'mon people that's one too many. Let's not give out any more info, hm?

Why the unvote, Vesuvan?

Because it looked like Flay slipped up in a pretty significant way. He basically showed that he doesn't have a townie role PM. People without townie role PM's in a game structured like this have a very good chance of being scum.

Besides, the pressure on EmpTyger wasn't exactly about to go away with my vote moving.

Well, claim time, I guess, although I would have liked more inputs and positioning from Lurker & Co.

I am Hammurabi - Babylonians.
I started with units everyone have available + the Bowman (Unique Unit, as I understand, 2/1/1) already available. However, I built a horseman 0/0/2 for the reasons I already explained.

There is a bit of flavour at the beginning of my PM, which I can detail if necessary.

Is it ?

It looks like I'm going to be lynched because what Puzle & Vesuvan are saying is too obvious, in my eyes. Puzzle's claim doesn't contain the exact wording as my PM, so therefore I didn't assume they all would be worded the same. Maybe the fact that I don't have my UU yet is the difference here, Vesuvan?

As my clearing of HezLucky should show, I do not at this stage have my unique unit. Sorry, Flay, but you just confirmed the slip-up. Now, it becomes a matter of whether that means you're scum, you're a very unusual townie role, or I (and by appearances others) are reading too much into one sentence of the townie role PM which suggests a common structure.

Anyways, Flay's still #2 on the suspicion scale even with that mess-up. EmpTyger, claim before digging for extra info. Especially info which would help you to fabricate a claim!

[Vesuvan]

Vesuvan:

<snip>EmpTyger, claim before digging for extra info. Especially info which would help you to fabricate a claim!

Oh come on again. I'd already denied being able to counterclaim Puzzle and I was willing to go first against Thok. How could any possible claim I might have made been affected?

*cough*

I propose that we go through and deny or admit to being from the basic Civ3 game. {Americans, Aztecs, Babylonians, Chinese, Egyptians, English, French, Germans, Greeks, Indians, Iroquois, Japanese, Persians, Romans, Russians, Zulu} Also, if a player has not yet commented on Puzzle’s claim, they should do so at that time, and likewise counterclaim Thok if they can. Then that player names the next player to go, and so on. I am willing to go first. When this is done, assuming I am still under suspicion, I will make a full claim.

Do you

really

need me to explain that?

[Vesuvan]

Vesuvan:
Yes, I really do think I need you to explain that. Because- as I *just* restated- I said I’d be willing to go first. So I’d have been declaring main/expansion before anyone else. So… how again would that help me fabricate a claim?

Here, I'll highlight the appropriate section:

I am willing to go first. When this is done, assuming I am still under suspicion, I will make a full claim.

So you claim expansion/main-game, then after knowing how many expansion pack and main-game civs there are, make your full claim. I'll agree that it won't help much, but it will help.

Thok's reponse to that, however, was rather telling.

FOS: Thok

[Vesuvan]

Thok's reponse to that, however, was rather telling.

FOS: Thok

Explain, please? EmpTyger made certain posts that strongly suggested that if he was a Civ (rather than a barbarian group) then he was a main game Civ; for example, his post asking why this was a 20 person game. Or do you have some other reason for giving me the FOS?

My bad - I looked at the wrong "previous statements". FOS retracted now you've clarified.

Happy with my vote. Scum would just

love

to know if they can fake from the expansion sets...

*raises eyebrow*

(I had made a longer post here, but Emptyger has beaten me to it)

Anyhoo, I haven't seen enough from Flay to think he's a better lynch than EmpTyger today, though he's definitely right up there.

Unvote, Vote: Emptyger

[Vesuvan]

Suggestion to the mod: Ask the previously killed people (EmpTyger, Versuvan) to replace back in, since they've already participated in most of the game.

Not advisable due to additional information.