Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[ribwich]

I am counterclaiming consulmaker. I have no idea why Jack tried claiming it this early since outing me does scum absolutely no good, but he is not it. If you guys want, I can prove it at the end of this day by calling who will be the new consuls day 2.

[ribwich]

I chose the consuls pretty much randomly. This is actually my first game after a two year hiatus, so I don't really know any of the players or know who would be a good pick. I did remember the name SensFan (although nothing about him) from Price is Right Mafia, so I picked him and then just a random player.

I decided right away that if someone else tried claiming my role, I would have no problem with counterclaiming it. This isn't even a real power role since another townie will get it right away if I die, so town loses nothing by me being outed. It's also an easy to prove role since I can announce who the new consuls will be before the next day starts.

[ribwich]

ribwich:
1. would you have claimed consulmaker if Jack hadn't claimed?
2. do you believe Jack is scum?
3. why do you think did Jack claim consulmaker?

1. If one my consuls ever tried to execute me, I would have. Otherwise, I wasn't planning on revealing it.
2. Yes. I see no reason why someone would fakeclaim consulmaker unless they were scum.
3. There's a few reasons I can think of:
A. For some reason he didn't think someone would counterclaim it
B. He misunderstood the setup, and thought outing the consulmaker would be more useful to scum than it actually is
C. Someone in the mafia has a power that only works when targeting me. In which case, outing me does actually help them.

Actually, I think I'd rather just explain my thoughts so others can see if I missed something.

Tonight, if Jack is Consulmaker, he makes ribwhich and someone he thinks is Town the Consuls. If ribwhich is Consulmaker, he targets Jack and someone he thinks is Town. D3, we execute whoever of Jack/ribwhich turns up as Consul tomorrow.

I'm not a fan of this idea, since it would involve guaranteeing that at least one of the consuls tomorrow is scum. If you're insisting on not allowing either one of us to die today, I would propose this alternative: everyone divides themselves up into two groups. I will guarantee that the consuls tomorrow are one person from each group.

[ribwich]

I like that idea, and would be fully willing to use it.

[ribwich]

I'm not a fan of this idea, since it would involve guaranteeing that at least one of the consuls tomorrow is scum. If you're insisting on not allowing either one of us to die today, I would propose this alternative: everyone divides themselves up into two groups. I will guarantee that the consuls tomorrow are one person from each group.

how about dividing everyone in two groups A and B
and you choosing both consuls out of A and Jack choosing both consuls out of B?
that way even if one consul dies, we still know who of you is the real consulmaker.


PS:

FoS: chesskid

, for his nonsense-attack on me.

This is a great idea, and doesn't take until D3 to kill one of the fakes. Makes me think Sens is scum trying to drag out offing one of his teammates.

I'm not such a big fan of this idea, since it leads to the question of how the groups will be split up. Besides, I really don't see the downside to killing one of them for sure on D3, with the bonus of added info from a Scumconsul.

Is there still a way to roll dice on here? Roll a 2-sided dice for each player. If this ends with the 2 groups being uneven, roll a (# of players in larger group)-sided die, and select that player from the list to go to the other group. Repeat until the groups are balanced.

I don't see how there's any "bonus" to having a confirmed scum player be consul. There might be info found in the actions of a consul that was later found to be scum, but someone that became consul at the same time as being confirmed scum would just force a no lynch.

[ribwich]

how about simply splitting player-list in half?
it should be random enough for our purposes.

Possibly the way to do it is to get both consulmakers to agree on a randomish method (alphabetically by username, signup order), that way at know for sure that we've got one non-scum helping decide.

Either of these would be fine with me. I really don't care how the list gets split, since using this method should make tomorrow's lynch easy. Even if it ends with two scum consuls, as long as neither is confirmed scum, they should go along with the plan if they don't want to get attention thrown to them.


Why am I not surprised that Jack is less interested in doing this now that it's becoming harder for scum to use it to their advantage?

[ribwich]

You seemed fine with it back when the method of proving I'm consulmaker was just I call the 2 consuls before night starts (easier for mafia to exploit)

You're "not interested" now that it's this two groups idea. (much harder for mafia to exploit since they don't actually know who the consuls will be)

[ribwich]

So you wouldn't be opposed to the two groups idea, you just don't like any of the ideas given so far on how to create those two groups?

[ribwich]

...this is already such a weird game. Sens, why would you want Jack to be Tribune? Jack and myself should be the two guaranteed to not be a Tribune this day.

I haven't really seen enough yet to know for sure who I want to vote for, but I'm leaning towards chamber, InHim, and rabies right now.

[ribwich]

Vote: rabies

Just pick a method with what we have up (the list) and split into two. How about even and odds? Done. Done.

Another method I would be fine with using. Jack, I'll even let you pick which group is yours. And for anyone that thinks there's a chance both of us are scum, any potential third consulmaker could just pick one from each group.

[ribwich]

Strongly disagree. If it pleases you, look up Martyr Mafia. I suicidebombed Scum N0 in a 10:2 set-up. Town went on to lose, due to not having any informtion or links from the dead Scum.

I wasn't able to find the game, but from how you described it that sounds like a completely different situation. If Jack doesn't get elected as tribunal, (which he shouldn't, and neither should I) that doesn't mean we're going to be left with zero information.

[ribwich]

Sens, do you believe that either Jack or I will be confirmed as scum by Day 2?

If yes, why would you want either one of us to be a tribunal today? I understand that there is some merit to the testing how potential scum will act as a tribunal idea, but why bother risking it when it's going to be confirmed the next day anyway? If I was scum, knew my cover was going to be blown the next day, and received tribunal power, I would just veto any execution for the sake of either saving a scummate or causing a bunch of confusion. I don't see how that helps the town at all.

[ribwich]

Sens, even though it's not as relevant any more, I would still like a response to post #276.

I might be alone in this, but I would much prefer if the executions never work that way again. The way I see it, other than extreme cases, there shouldn't ever be a time when the veto power needs to actually be used. I think it should be made clear from all tribunals and consuls on whether or not they are fine with an execution, or else the day could end horribly. Whether Sens was trying to end the day early or not, there's a good chance it could have if Nathaniel happened to not get a chance to check this soon enough.

Jack, quit ignoring me.

You're trying to not respond to my offer of evens or odds so that tomorrow you can say the reason the consuls didn't get picked correctly is because you never agreed to the plan. It's not going to work. Pick one soon or I'll pick for you.

[ribwich]

Re: 276
I still would have wanted Jack as a Tribunal.

I know. That's not what I was asking. My question was why would you want him to be tribunal when he's going to be confirmed as scum tomorrow anyway?

Re: Executions
Tough shit. As long as I'm a Consul, I won't ask permission to execute someone, nor will I be telling anyone if I plan on vetoing an execution until I decide to Veto or NotVeto an execution that has been placed. I'm not going to be hiding behind the protection of the majority, and I won't be letting any of the other people in power today do so either. When you play a game of Mafia, you are expected to be checking the thread every 48 hours as a bare minimum, so unless someone announces V/LA ahead of time (in which case I likely won't submit an execution during that time), if anyone chooses not to use their Veto, I will assume that they saw the execution posted and chose not to use it; I won't be accepting "Oops I didn't check the thread for 2 days".

Well I hope you had fun being consul for a day, because you're never getting that power again. This isn't about asking permission to execute, or hiding behind the majority, or using an excuse for why they didn't post a veto. This is about pulling a dick move like trying to get an execution started at the soonest possible time. It was the weekend after Thanksgiving, so there was a good chance a lot of people weren't going to get a chance to see it (notice how activity has been pretty low from the majority lately?) And on top of that, after it got vetoed the first time, you tried executing him again for shits and giggles. All it's going to take to get a quicklynch is for Nathaniel to not notice one of your executions right away.

@ribwhich: since you say you are the consulmaker, why wouldn't you just pick, going for even or odd based on who you wanted to be consul?

Fine.

I'm taking evens.

[ribwich]

Now, I realize that rib is most definatively either an idiot or Scum, since he seems to want no one to even think of the E-word without first asking permission from everyone else. Likely on the idiot side of that line, since he also hasn't read enough of the thread to realize that I was not trying to have chesskid executed the first time.

Trying to start an execution at the very start of the day that's going to get vetoed anyway can only accomplish two things:

A: Waste one of the tribunal's vetoes
B: Cause an accidental quicklynch

And I understand that you were at least making it look like you didn't actually want chesskid executed, but that's part of my point. If you don't want somebody executed, don't use your power to execute them. All you're doing is abusing your power to try to get reactions from people, but it's going to cause more harm than good.

[ribwich]

C: Get the message across to someone that they need to smarten up

Which can be just as easily accomplished through the threat of execution. When it's clear you have no intention of actually wanting the execution at that time there's no difference.

D: Get reactions from everyone

See above and

All you're doing is abusing your power to try to get reactions from people, but it's going to cause more harm than good.

Also, there's no such thing as an accidental quicklynch. If chesskid had been lynched, it would have been because each one of {Sens, chamber, Primate, Nathan} wanted him lynched.

Or because Sens decided to waive his right to veto to try to look more threatening, chamber and Primate assumed Nathan was going to use his veto anyway, and something happened to cause Nathan to not get a chance to use his veto in time. And before you say something, I know that didn't happen. That's not the point. The point is if you and future consuls play this way, a situation like that is very likely to happen.

Real things are happening. I'd love for both of you to comment on Kat's little "Ohh I forgot about the game but I know what happened in it" business.

Honestly, I don't think it's much to look into, but I don't want to say why until Kat responds.

[ribwich]

Or maybe I should actually read the posts that come up before submitting....

I don't think it's that far fetched for Kat to have seen the mod's post. The title says "Parama has been saved!" so the very first thing I did was look through the recent posts to find either a bolded post or something from the mod explaining what happened.

[ribwich]

Yea, when I saw that I was curious too. So I, ya know, CAUGHT UP ON THE GAME.

And so did I. But, before getting caught up on everything I figured out exactly what was going on regarding chesskid. I can see how Kat did the same thing.

Are you scum this game, spyspy?

That, however, is scummy. I didn't agree with SpyreX's thinking, but it was still valid. Why do you think Spy is scum?

Pseudo vote: Katuski

[ribwich]

Spy, until recently you had basically the same reason for powerrox and xReck as you did for Kat. Is there a specific reason you have scot over both of them?

[ribwich]

In that case, I think it's this part of your post I was more confused about.

Hate-belly says kat.
Gut says scot.

I took that to mean that you already had Kat as the highest on your choice list, and the recent posts just helped confirm it. What did you mean by "hate-belly"? If the recent posts involving Kat hadn't happened, would Scot be the one that you most want to see executed?

[ribwich]

You might as well just have that be a vote for Powerrox and Reck since chamber and Nathanael can't be killed.

[ribwich]

What happened to "I will not allow the execution of Jack or ribwich"?

[ribwich]

What happened to "I will not allow the execution of Jack or ribwich"?

Partly what Parama said. Partly I realized that you've been much more scummy than Jack.
Mostly that I don't think its in the Town's best interests for you to continue making the decisions on who is Consul, if you happen to be Consulmaker.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of this pseudo vote thing to get an idea of who everyone wants executed? What's the point of having a vote on someone that you don't actually want executed today?

I would ask you to explain how I'm scummier than Jack, but it really doesn't even matter. It'll be obvious by tomorrow that I'm the real consulmaker and that he's lying scum.

And the fact that you're more interested in getting rid of the consulmaker instead of scum just because I don't want consuls that will abuse their power makes me all the more confident in my decision to never let you be consul again.

[ribwich]

I'm not talking like I'm confirmed consulmaker. I'm talking like someone that's going to be confirmed tomorrow when the consuls get chosen the way I said they would. Taking the gamble on Jack or me would be the worst move you could make. There is absolutely no reason to want to execute either of us when tomorrow it will be confirmed which of us is lying.

[ribwich]

Abrasive != scummy.

I've got good feelings all over about Sens being town.

Not that I agree with killing one of the two as its panned out TODAY (especially when there's others so deserving)

It's not the abrasiveness that makes me think he's scummy. It's the fact that he tried to get us to use a plan that would involve having confirmed scum as consul tomorrow, and when that didn't work he tried to get Jack to be a tribune.

[ribwich]

We already agreed on I'll take evens and Jack will take odds, but I actually like that idea better if Jack wants to do it.

[ribwich]

Parama, why is Nathanael scummy? I don't really understand what you meant by

he's pretty much trying to line up lynches from the looks of things.

Also, why do you believe that Jack and I are both town? What pro-town reason would there be for lying about being consulmaker?

[ribwich]

<b>Mod, what happens if an execution attempt is made when there's less than 48 hours for the deadline?</b>

Just quoting this incase Parama missed it the first time

Parama, why is Nathanael scummy? I don't really understand what you meant by

he's pretty much trying to line up lynches from the looks of things.

Also, why do you believe that Jack and I are both town? What pro-town reason would there be for lying about being consulmaker?

[ribwich]

Oops, wrong tags...

Mod, what happens if an execution attempt is made when there's less than 48 hours for the deadline?

[ribwich]

a) want the katsuki lynch

Haven't decided how I feel about the timing though. Do we want to wait until a replacement arrives and has a chance to defend him, or just get it over with?

[ribwich]

You've yet to read the game, but you somehow know that sensfan is scum? I should have listened to Spy the first time around.

[ribwich]

It takes about 2 seconds to read that sens is the one executing me.

So he's scum because oh my god he sucks?

[ribwich]

I am a VT btw. You guys can proceed accordingly.

I'm not sure how strongly this should be considered, but this could be a slip. There are no VTs in this game. The closest thing is a Roman Senator, but they're not really vanilla since the PM states they can become consulmaker. It probably isn't very much on its own since I could see some people still referring to it as a VT, but I do think it at least adds to the case against Katsuki.

[ribwich]

Hello SpyreX. Hello Katsuki. Bye Katsuki. Hello everyone else I've not played with before.

I'm replacing Rabies, and I've read about a third of the game so far. I will read the rest tomorrow before the execution happens. I have no opinion yet on whether Katsuki deserves execution this game, but I will say that she is an easy target to get mislynched.

Reading about the two Consulmaker claims and the plans to find which of them was lying was certainly interesting. I saw some patently bad ideas, but fortunately there are players with common sense around, and all the ideas I had while reading were invariably mentioned by someone. Anyway, I think it is obvious that one of them is lying scum, though I cannot fathom what the scum hope to accomplish by it.

Time is running short, so I will just go ahead and propose a plan. As discussed, all players will be divided in two groups. Jack has to choose the next consuls from one group, and ribwich has to choose them from the other. Even if one consul dies, the one surviving consul and the identity of the night kill will indicate which of them is telling the truth. Just in case the real Consulmaker has yet to reveal himself, then this third Consulmaker should choose one consul from each of the two groups. Clear enough? I should hope so.

How the players are divided into groups is irrelevant, as long as it is arbitrary and has nothing to do with anyone's reads. I will just use the order of the playerlist. The current consuls are removed from the lists since they cannot be consuls for two consecutive days, as well as the two Consulmaker candidates, for obvious reasons. Even/odd won't work because both current consuls are even, meaning the groups would not have equal size that way.

Group A - Jack has to select consuls from these

1. chamber
2. Feysal (replacing Rabies)
3. SpyreX
4. Powerrox93
6. Mert
9. Primate
11. xRECKONERx

Group B - ribwich has to select consuls from these

12. Porochaz
13. dramonic
14. horrordude0215
15. Parama (replacing chesskid3)
16. inHimshallibe
17. scotmany12
19. Lowell

have we decided on the two lists for the consulmakers yet? if yes, must have missed it, show me.
it is necessary we do that before a lynch.
I also want both consulmakers to explicitly agree with it by quoting it, so there are no misunderstandings.

Hope these lists work for both Jack and ribwich.

More to come tomorrow before the deadline, once I've had some sleep and read the rest of the thread.

Quoting to show that this is the plan I will be using when selecting consuls.

[ribwich]

Feysal, a couple of people have suggested the idea that Jack and I are both town. Primate (I believe) has said that it's too stupid of a move for scum to do, and parama hasn't given an explanation despite me asking for one twice, but thinks that its obvious we're both town. What do you think about this idea and the players that suggested it?

There's some other things I wanted to say, but I'm posting this from a phone and its too difficult to get to the right quotes. I'll try to have a post tonight.

[ribwich]

However... from a quick ISO read of Katsuki I feel this is a mislynch for lurking.

I believe Katsuki is town. She has been useless, that is true, but for Katsuki this is par for the course, even the replacing out when lynched.

I disagree with this. Although I can't comment on if this is common for Katsuki, there's more to the lynch than just the lurking. There's been the couple of times to suggest that Kat actually has been paying attention to this thread. (I still don't think the first instance was really that strong of a case since there are ways to explain it, but when another one pops up it makes me rethink it.) Kat also tried calling Spy scum just for being called out on this behavior, which is probably the closest to omgus voting you can get in this game.

I could be wrong, but I don't think the chance of Katsuki being scum is any higher than when picking any player at random.

Is there someone you think has a better case against them that isn't immune today and isn't claiming consulmaker?

i hope u die

Has the execution happened yet?
I want blood, damnit.

Keep doing that, and I will force a No Lynch. This is getting fucking retarded.

The comments like these are just annoying. There's nothing wrong with what Nathanael is doing. Why would you want the day to end early before replacements get a chance to contribute to the game? Plus, Jack still hasn't confirmed if he's going to use the plan. He probably won't, but let's not give him a chance to go "you guys ended the day before I could say I wasn't going to use that to pick consuls."

[ribwich]

Question is, would scum claiming Consulmaker make any more sense? At first glance no, but there may be some mechanic involved we don't know about. For instance, the scum could have a role blocker and plan to force the Consulmaker into revealing himself, only to keep blocking him from selecting new consuls. There may be some hidden purpose in scum doing this which we cannot see.

We should be wiser tomorrow, but I fear the scum have some way of messing with the Consulmaker.

I was really worried about something like this after I counterclaimed, but the more I think about the more I feel it will still be worth it if this is the case. If it turns out they've gotten such a hold over me that I've become a liability to town, there would have to be a vig for balance purposes to take me out. We still get a free ticket to the identity of one scum member, and any future consulmaker will be made more aware of what can happen with a claim.

[ribwich]

If Nathanael vetos this execution again, I'm probably going to refuse to let Kat get lynched today.

Why?

[ribwich]

Hey Parama:

why is Nathanael scummy? I don't really understand what you meant by

he's pretty much trying to line up lynches from the looks of things.

Also, why do you believe that Jack and I are both town? What pro-town reason would there be for lying about being consulmaker?

[ribwich]

You've been pushing a case, you just haven't explained what the case is. This is the third time you've made a post about how he's scummy without giving a reason why.

If nobody counterclaims, scum gets to look like town. If someone does counterclaim, scum knows who the real consulmaker is.

[ribwich]

Vote: ribwich

I intend on doing this at the start of every day. I also do not plan on giving any explanation on my choices for consuls. The more I say about which players are the best to give power to is the more information scum get at guessing who I'm going to elect the next day.

[ribwich]

If enough people disagree with it, I might change my approach to the beginning of the days. I just don't think town loses very much by having one person not comment on who they want to give power to, while scum gains quite a bit by having the consulmaker comment on who they want to give power to.

He has a tremendous amount of control. If he finds me scummy, he can pick two Consuls who both find me scummy as well, for instance. I think it's a massive mistake to let someone pick the Consuls and also have veto power.

I think because of this you guys need to look at it on a case by case basis. If it looks like I'm trying to get a specific person executed, and you don't think that person is scummy, then you obviously shouldn't be voting for me.

Trying to protect the real consulmaker? I dunno. It's so fucking blatantly scummy, though, I can't see WHY scum would do it to draw attention to themselves.

But then why keep the charade up once the real consulmaker counter claims? I might have believed him if at the very beginning he admitted to lying and said he was trying to protect the real consulmaker, but he kept his claim even after several people said that if we are both town the lying one needs to come clean immediately. Hell, even after being caught lying, he's still trying to say that he's consulmaker.

[ribwich]

My psychic powers say if I put you on the chopping block I'll get vetoed.
I must be a seer!

Does that mean you would execute him today if you knew nobody would veto it?

Shit, I guess it is WIFOM.
I just feel like Jack is stupidtown instead of stupidscum. *shrug*

Whatevs. I won't miss him if he gets executed, but I'm still convinced he's town.

I just don't see how that could be the case when Jack is still trying to stick to his consulmaker claim. I think someone in the scum QT told him to say he picked consuls from my list to psych out the scum (which is probably why someone from his list got nightkilled) and someone else told him to say he got mixed up on who belonged to which group. He got confused and used both of those excuses not realizing that they contradict each other.

[ribwich]

...did I skim the part where Jack is still trying to stick his Consulmaker claim?

Post #644

[ribwich]

I intend on waiving my right to veto, but I want to get a few questions out there first. Dram or scot, these don't have to all get answered before the day ends, but could you at least make sure the deadline doesn't happen before Leon gets a chance to do his catch up post?

chamber: Why did you veto the execution attempt on parama? Would you have vetoed any execution that wasn't on katsuki?

Nathaniel: Was there ever a time when you were thinking you would allow katsuki to be executed? If not, why keep the charade up by constantly doing attempts on her?

SensFan: Did you think powerrox was going to flip scum? If not, why didn't you veto the execution?

Feysal: Knowing that Katsuki was obviously lying about not having enough time for this, (she signed up for other large games afterwards) do you still think this is all a big null tell for her?

Parama: Since he's not unlynchable anymore, can we get that case on Nathaniel?

Dram: Do you honestly think reck is scum? If you knew it would go unvetoed, would you execute him right now if you had the chance?

Reck: Do you honestly think dram is scum? If you knew it would go unvetoed, would you execute him right now if you had the chance?

[ribwich]

Your "holy shit, how'd I miss that?" post reads as "holy shit, I got myself in trouble saying he was town!".

The one thing Jack has said that I agree with. Although now that he's the one to bring it up, I'm not sure how strongly I agree with it anymore...

I wasn't planning on saying anything until tomorrow, but I did find it pretty hard to believe that reck not only missed that post, but also missed every post referencing and quoting it, including a post of mine that reck was replying to.

[ribwich]

Watch and learn:
Jacktown claims consulmaker to cover for the real consulmaker and try to attract a kill as a VT.
Ribwichtown the idiot ccs because he is unable to process this simple thought process and ruins the entire point of Jack's claim.
That Nath doesn't even try and consider this option FROM HIS POSITION shows that he's aiming towards the dichotomy and is scum trying to set up two mislynches based on claims alone. Even a 3rd grader has enough of the brain to come up with the solution, "Oooh they could both be town right? right? Riiiight?"

If this is what really happened, Jack made a terrible move. There was no need for me to have cover. This isn't a real power role. If I die, the honors go to another VT anyway, so the only reason I'm even likely to get targeted is because I'm confirmed town. People that were pushing for the dichotomy are not scummy, or else we have more scum players than town players in this game.

[ribwich]

And this is where everything you say is completely discredited.
Seriously.

I disagree. I've never played with you and can't chime in on if he's even right about this, but if you're someone that normally is very good at catching scum, using those kinds of arguments as a reason to suggest someone is scum does make it a fairly good chance you could be scum.

I didn't have a read on powerrox, but there were other players I was much more confidant would flip Scum. Unfortunately, I didn't veto the execution because I had a great idea, but was late coming home from class and missed my chance.

Was this a specific to the situation idea that you can share, or do you need to keep it secret since its general enough that it could be used again later in the game?

[ribwich]

No that's okay. I was just curious if you were intentionally not mentioning it or didn't think to.

[ribwich]

2) I get counterclaimed and we kick of day 1 with practically everyone commenting on who they think is lying and who they think is scum. Scum KNOW that neither of us are scum. Town DOES NOT KNOW that. This is excellent. The fact that people generally didn't get it bodes well for the quality of the reads based on it.

After rereading the post, this part is making me rethink things. I was originally thinking that reck and parama look scummy for trying to protect their scummate, but if Jack flips town, they actually look even more suspicious. The fact that they're acting like it's so obvious for Jack to be town when it really isn't obvious suggests that they have outside knowledge that Jack isn't scum. We'd still have to kill you today, but if it does turn out that you are town, there actually will be information to gain from it.

[ribwich]

I'm probably going to get some flak for this, and I'm surprised myself that I'm actually doing this...

VETO JACK EXECUTION

I'm not saying I for sure think he's town. There's a chance that this has all been a big scum gambit, but I can now really see the pro-town reasons for what he did. There's better execution choices for today.

[ribwich]

Oh come on SensFan. You of all people should be able to see what there is to gain from this. Sure, Jack needs to die, and he's going to. There's no way he's going to survive to the end with what he's done, but what do we gain from doing it now? If we let dram and scot execute the easiest target, we learn nothing about them. But when that easy target is taken away from them and they have to make a real decision, we get information. There's a player that I think is actually scummier than Jack, but at the moment I don't have time to make the full case. So for now, I just want to see what's going to happen.

[ribwich]

Not that it matters as much now since he's already dead, but reck was who I was referring to. I'm not going to bother now with the whole case, but the main idea was that he looks scummy regardless of whether Jack is town or scum.

I'm still thinking there's a good chance Jack is actually town. It's obvious he had the whole thing planned from the beginning for this being about trapping people that had inside knowledge of knowing both claimed consulmakers are town. It wasn't a last plan of defense, because now it actually makes sense why he did it in the first place. So what it comes down to is was it really a town plan to gain information, or was it a scum gambit to try to stay alive? It just makes more sense to me for this to be a town move, because there was a slim chance of it working if he was scum, while there was a lot to gain if he was town.

[ribwich]

Vote: ribwich

I would not mind ribwich being reelected, though I would prefer him to discuss his plans with the town before making another controversial move. We were fortunate dramonic had to put his executioner's axe where his words were, and no one vetoed the execution. I still think it would've been better if ribwich had made his case against reckoner, that would have discouraged anyone from vetoing. Now we had luck on our side.

To be honest, it was an issue of timing. The entire reconsideration of how Jack should be approached didn't come to me until right when I made that post, and I wasn't willing to rely on one of the consuls being able to extend the lynch time to give us more time to discuss the merits of the plan. I also just didn't have enough time to actually make my case against reck, but with dram being one of the consuls I was pretty sure saving Jack would get him killed anyway. For what it's worth, if I'm ever tribune again, I promise that I won't make a move like that again without discussing it with everyone first.

[ribwich]

The death of a backup bodyguard is also interesting. It implies there is a bodyguard also, meaning we have another confirmed town should that someone wish to claim. Which that someone obviously should not do, unless he ends up on death row.

Actually, in a game like this, are we sure that the bodyguard shouldn't claim earlier? Normally I would agree with this, but confirmed town members are extremely valuable to us. If the bodyguard claims, we can ensure that there is at least one town consul every day. They'll be more likely to get nightkilled, but isn't that part of the point of the bodyguard?

[ribwich]

Ah okay. I'm not very familiar with the bodyguard role, so I wasn't aware there were multiple types. Are bodyguards generally aware of whether they're regular or elite?

Another thing that's occurred to me is we should pay more attention to the fact that only one kill happened night 1. Since the bodyguard is still alive, and it seems unlikely for there to be a doctor and a bodyguard, either there is no serial killer and it actually was a vigilante that killed dram, or a roleblocker prevented one of the kills the first night. If it's the second that's the case, and it wasn't reck or dram that they blocked, should the roleblocker claim now?

[ribwich]

I guess I need to really mull it because would Dram throw double busses? Because no way in hell ever is Jack an SK.

Two scumteams?

What am I missing? Help me Sens

Two scumteams would actually make a lot of sense. That would explain Jack's gambit a hell of a lot better than him being town or on the only scumteam does. His scumteam gets info on who's on the other team, and he sacrifices himself for the sake of disrupting town discussion and getting attention away from his own side.

[ribwich]

Similar to why he had to shoot reck second. The majority of the town wanted jack lynched. Had he tried to kill reck first, we once again, would have known something was up. And I was the other consul, and I was pretty adamant during day one that I thought jack should be lynched. Its not crazy to think dram was afraid of me vetoing reck and then executing jack.

Also note that dram's explanation for why he didn't try to execute reck in the first place was specifically because it was going to be vetoed.

[ribwich]

Parama, I think I missed the point where you had the change of heart towards Jack. You were originally one of the people swearing that he's obvious town from the very beginning. Why are you willing to believe he's scum now?

[ribwich]

So until you made that connection, you weren't thinking Jack was scum?

[ribwich]

Hmm now that I'm rethinking... there's probably 2 scum left, maaaaaybe 3 but it's less likely, so the scum probably aren't voting together on the tribune wagon.
So Jack probably isn't scum since Nathanael is.

Nice backtrack and way to ignore the question. I'm guessing by now you've figured out what I was leading up to, which is that you've been taking on a more subtle approach to what porochaz is doing. "Jack is town. Ribwich is stupid for saving him."

[ribwich]

Can someone explain to the historically challenged why two scumgroups is unlikely with this flavor?

I don't believe that Jack is scum with dramonic and reckoner. I don't think that *anyone* thinks he is. No, wait. scotmany mentions this. Ok, I don't think anyone but scotmany believes this.

You can add me to that group too. I think dramonic did everything he did out of necessity. The only reason I think it's more likely for Jack to be a non-pyrrhic scum is because it explains his gambit a lot better.

I don't see why dramonic would've been afraid of you vetoing the execution. That would've allowed him to get out of executing reckoner, and if reckoner ever died by different means, the suspicion would have fallen on you.

I'll have to look through the pages to find the quote, but I'm positive dramonic specifically said that the reason he wasn't going to execute reck was because it would be vetoed.

[ribwich]

No, it's me noticing that OH WAIT 2 SCUM ARE DEAD HURRR.

Seems pretty convenient that you noticed that right after I started questioning you, but whatever. I think that answers the question anyway. If you were so sure that Jack was town, why were you one of the ones pissed off about my veto? You should have been ecstatic that we traded a town lynch for a scum lynch.

I know he did, I believe I referenced that very post earlier. What I'm saying is I'd have played differently in that situation, not that it matters much. Anyway, that situation can be interpreted in different ways. I'm not sure I believe SensFan's explanation that dramonic and reckoner were trying to appear so obnoxious neither of them would be made Consul, mainly because dramonic looked so much better of the two.

I'm not quite understanding what you mean here. You said dram wouldn't have been worried about it being vetoed, but he basically admitted that he was. What other way is there to interpret the situation?

As far as I remember from way back, that's Lowell's meta- town or scum.

Could you show a few examples of this? After seeing that Feysal's meta on Kat was just one game, I have to be a little more skeptical about this.

[ribwich]

Sens, why did you want somebody to claim the dramonic kill?

Of course dramonic wouldn't have been worried about his execution of reckoner, his fellow scum, being vetoed. I'm sure they both wished someone would, and had it been me, I would've executed reckoner first precisely so someone would veto it and execute someone else instead. I don't think the bus was entirely deliberate, and they hoped that their fight would look so silly that someone would veto it, like Nathanael had vetoed Chesskid's execution.

What I meant with interpretations, we have two: one says that dramonic would not have bussed Jack simultaneously with reckoner, and another that says he had no choice, and Jack could be scum anyway. I can't tell whether Jack is scum based solely on this, though I would be surprised indeed if the scum had planned to bus two of their number right at the start.

Ah, I think I see where this misunderstanding is coming from now. I'm not saying dram was afraid of a reck execution being vetoed because it would hurt their scumteam. Obviously the best case scenario for scum is to be able to bus your scumbuddy and have them not die as a result of it. What I mean is, if dram had put in an execution on reck, and it got vetoed without us seeing that reck actually was scum, how was dram going to look? He was presented with one of the easiest lynch choices you can get, and he would be ignoring it to continue his bus. The entire reason why I picked dram as a consul was to see if he would choose reck over Jack, and I think he knew that.

'tis because I noticed after you asked.

Care to respond to the rest of that post you were quoting?

[ribwich]

Not really.

Noted, scum.

In case we later find out it was an SK or second scumteam.

Were you expecting it to actually work? I see a move like that as being much more likely to out a vigilante than it would to get an SK or non-pyrrhic scum to fakeclaim.

Sorry if you already answered this before, but I don't remember me or anyone else ever asking you this. If that plan you had thought of for day 1 had worked, who were you planning on executing?

[ribwich]

I waive my right to veto.

[ribwich]

I'm going to withhold saying anything about SensFan right now, because so much of my read on him will depend on the Jack flip.

The death of a backup bodyguard is also interesting. It implies there is a bodyguard also, meaning we have another confirmed town should that someone wish to claim. Which that someone obviously should not do, unless he ends up on death row.

Actually, in a game like this, are we sure that the bodyguard shouldn't claim earlier? Normally I would agree with this, but confirmed town members are extremely valuable to us. If the bodyguard claims, we can ensure that there is at least one town consul every day. They'll be more likely to get nightkilled, but isn't that part of the point of the bodyguard?

My only problem with this is that we don't know what kind of bodyguard we have. An ordinary bodyguard dies to protect his target, and an elite bodyguard takes the attacker with him. If we have the elite version, it is definitely better to stay hidden and hope to take out an anti-town with you.

Since the bodyguard had a backup, I doubt he is an elite though, but still, I think I'd rather keep that confirmed town card until endgame to be played there.

Reposting these quotes just because scotmany was the only other person to comment on this, and I'd like to hear what other people think about the idea of the bodyguard claiming.

[ribwich]

I'm not talking like I'm confirmed consulmaker. I'm talking like someone that's going to be confirmed tomorrow when the consuls get chosen the way I said they would. Taking the gamble on Jack or me would be the worst move you could make. There is absolutely no reason to want to execute either of us when tomorrow it will be confirmed which of us is lying.

I'd just like to point out that Sens backed off on me after this post, and if I remember correctly there wasn't really anyone else attacking him at the time for what he was doing. The argument we were having started out as legitimate on my end, but after what happened with chesskid I was curious to see if I could antagonize Sens enough to get him to put an execution attempt on me. If he was town, I knew he would see it as a terrible move and resist the temptation no matter much he wanted me dead. Now, all of this could just be because he knew it was going to get vetoed anyway, but that didn't seem to stop him before.

Again, too much of my read on Sens will depend on how Jack flips, but I wanted to at least get that out there in case I die tonight.

[ribwich]

Vote: ribwich

Only one death. That pretty much rules out serial killer, so a vigilante looks likely now. With him on our side, I expect two more mafia left, one of them possibly a power role.

This fits exactly with what I was thinking, and my gut is saying the last two can't be Sens and parama together. Of them, parama is giving me much more of a scumvibe.

[ribwich]

And yet whenever someone asks for what this post is, you say nothing.

[ribwich]

Also:

I can't believe people are missing the towniest post in the game.

Enlighten us about this most towniest post in the game then.

[ribwich]

And that is nowhere near as much of a towntell as you think it is.

[ribwich]

Because there's a 0% chance that scum would do that to try to make themselves look better.

[ribwich]

Except it's not sacrificing a power. It's giving it to someone else. You even said yourself that the alternative is neither of you being tribune.

[ribwich]

The loss scum gets in town having tribunal power, which really isn't that much considering there wasn't anybody saying they wanted Fonz executed, is minuscule compared to the gain they could get from making a move that looks protown.

[ribwich]

Tribunal power = lynch immunity btw

Except that's not what I said. I said giving Fonz tribunal power doesn't hurt scum all that much because he wasn't going to get lynched anyway. i.e. the only part of his power that was actually relevant was his ability to veto a lynch.

[ribwich]

Heh, I was so focused on Parama at the time that I didn't even realize you were referring to Nathanael in that post. Parama is just as guilty of doing that as him.

But regardless, I think that's overall a pretty null point. If I was in that situation I doubt I would say anything. What were you expecting? "Oops, guess I was wrong about Jack. Anyway let's move on to..." It just doesn't do any good to mull over it unless the flip suddenly changes your read on somebody else.

Not saying Nat can't be scum, but that's not the reason for it.

[ribwich]

Oh shit, somehow I missed the line in his post about Sens. Okay yeah, now I see what you guys are saying.

[ribwich]

I thought it was pretty obvious why I chose him for one of the consuls, but okay. It's day 4 and we have no read on that slot due to nobody in it actually doing anything. I'm giving us a chance to start getting actual information about him by putting him in a position where he has to make a decision.

If that wasn't what you were looking for and you wanted me to justify why I chose him over others, don't waste your time. Arguing over that isn't going to be any help.

[ribwich]

Fonz and Sens, since you guys know Lowell's meta fairly well, is this still a null tell for him? That was pretty bad to be that clueless about the game.

[ribwich]

Well yes, I meant sensfan should vote me when the time comes if he thinks I'm scum. My sense from the post, though, is that he doesn't. So whatever else you want to say about my play (I'll admit I've been consumed with another game recently), my obvtowniness is a help. So, you know... be happy.

I have a feeling asking this will lead to absolutely nothing, but whatever, how the hell are you obvtown?

[ribwich]

Something just occurred to me. Most of us have been assuming that the dramonic kill was done by a vig because it was the only night that two people died. But there was something else that was special about night 2. That night was handled by Flameaxe, and he did things a little bit differently. Anyone that took too long to send a night action got prodded. (I know this because that night it took me a while to figure out who I wanted to be consul. I took just as long last night and didn't receive a prod.) Could it be then that dramonic wasn't killed by a vig, but instead by a lazy SK that hasn't been paying much attention to this game?

[ribwich]

Maybe my point wasn't getting across. I'm saying we should execute Lowell because in addition to him being generally useless there's a good chance that he's an SK.

[ribwich]

Remember though that Lowell has admitted to spending more time on a different game than this one, and he's been paying so little attention that he still doesn't realize that I'm confirmed to be town (along with thinking that there's people that think I'm scum) I wouldn't find it that hard to believe that he often spends several days without even checking this topic.

I get ribwich's point about Lowell fitting in as an absent-minded serial killer, but the problem with serial killers is that they usually have to kill every night. I cannot recall where I read it, but a serial killer may even have a random target chosen for him by the moderator if he does not choose himself.

Well the rules state that taking more than 72 hours means your action does not go through, but I guess that doesn't necessarily mean no action occurs.

[ribwich]

Ah yes, my bad. I'd forgotten how OTT you were about the 'Dram couldn't have been bussing' thing.

However, that raises a new issue of its own- how come you seemed to think it so drastically unlikely that Dram was bussing Jack, but are happy enough to assume that Sens was?

I'd like an answer to this too.

[ribwich]

I'm not really sure what you're expecting from everyone else though. Sens, Scot, Nat, and I have all said we want him executed. Shanba has said he won't veto it if Fonz executes him. There's not a whole lot else that can happen until tribunes get elected.

[ribwich]

unvote
vote: scot

[ribwich]

I'll probably be the one killed this night, so I should get this out there. If Lowell flips scum, my next top scumread would be Spyrex. If Lowell flips town or SK, it's Parama and Feysal.

Spyrex: Expresses much uncomfortableness with the execution of Jack and Lowell. Jack's execution alone isn't very much though since he still went through with the execution, so that's why I'm only really suspicious of him if Lowell happens to also flip scum.

Parama: Many times talked about Jack as if he was obvtown with lousy reasons, yet was one of the people acting pissed off when I vetoed Jack's execution. (Yeah, porochaz did the same thing, but many of us were surprised when we found out he was town, and I think he did that on purpose specifically because he was the bodyguard) Also tunnels heavily on Nath in day one without any explanation, and then when pressured enough to present a case on him gives one that was lackluster for confident he acted about it.

Feysal: Most of what I was going to say about him was already mentioned by Shanba, but there's two other things I would bring up. First is in regards to yesterday's execution of Jack. Spy was talking about his uneasiness with it as more of a no longer being 100% sure type of thing, but it looked like Feysal was seeing that as a chance to get Jack to actually survive this game. The quote in particular that bothered me was this one:

What I mean is, if dram had put in an execution on reck, and it got vetoed without us seeing that reck actually was scum, how was dram going to look? He was presented with one of the easiest lynch choices you can get, and he would be ignoring it to continue his bus. The entire reason why I picked dram as a consul was to see if he would choose reck over Jack, and I think he knew that.

Obviously it would've looked like dramonic was tunneling, and given how much flak you got for vetoing Jack, it probably would've made him look suspicious. However, it may have been beneficial in the long run. It is likely that either dramonic or reckoner would've been executed eventually, and the survivor would've gained the reward for the bus then. As a bonus, if the one executed was reckoner, whoever had vetoed his execution would look suspect because of it. Doing this would be risky of course, more so than what dramonic did, but I may have done it in his position anyway.

What this whole thing started from was my response to Scotmany in #1014. What I meant there was that dramonic could not really have been afraid of his execution of reckoner being vetoed, like Scotmany suggested. In retrospect, it should be clear that dramonic saying so was an excuse because he did not want to bus reckoner yet. It still tells me little about Jack, since dramonic may have well decided that Jack was a lost cause, if they were scum together.

Having thought it over, I don't see why Jack could not be scum with dramonic and reckoner. Whether he is and they gave up on him, or he is not, the fact that dramonic had no hesitation executing him is a null tell. There was that odd episode with reckoner suddenly believing Jack and ribwich were both town, and changing his mind just as suddenly, and I can't say why reckoner would do this, though the scum may have been simply late with their planning since they did not expect to get a consul position. The way dramonic made an excuse not to execute reckoner says to me that it was not a planned bus, and ribwich vetoing Jack's execution really screwed their plan. And if it was not a planned bus, then the fight between dramonic and reckoner was meant as distancing, but they overdid it and it blew in their faces. I've said before that it was odd how dramonic and reckoner were setting up to bus each other, and I would not do this if one of my teammates was about to be exposed. I've changed my mind, I don't think they were preparing to bus at all, it was simply distancing gone too far.

For Jack's part, while I have no experience with him, there are some odd things I noticed in his ISO. Like when he proposed reckoner as the deadlock lynch on the first day, out of the blue. And of course, he kept up his Consulmaker claim longer than I'm comfortable with.

This post start off with him still arguing for why the double bus was unlikely, but in the end he just kind of gives up and admits that Jack could still be scum. To me this looks like someone that was trying to defend their scumbuddy, but then backs off when he sees it isn't working.

The second thing is a little harder to describe, because there aren't specific posts that back it up, but I've been getting this overall feeling that he's been trying exceptionally hard to get on my good side so that I'll make him consul. Town players would want to be consul too of course, but nobody else is giving me this feeling in the way that he is.

[ribwich]

This worries me even more than your stance on me. What does Lowell's flip have to do with anyone else being scum? I've said my read on him is null. Null read means he is more likely town than not. Has anyone else said anything different?

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Lowell flipping town doesn't make me more suspicious of you. Lowell flipping scum makes me more suspicious of Spyrex. It just so happens that you and Parama would be at the top of my list if he's town simply because my read on Spyrex depends on Lowell being scum.

[ribwich]

ribwich. Still don't see how he could be scum given his actions as tribune.

And this is the line that shows you've still been paying so little attention and makes the entire post useless even if you are town.

[ribwich]

Vote: Fonz

Spy, you know we're only allowed one tribune now, right? You should only be voting Feysal if you want him over Fonz.

[ribwich]

I'm with Sens that a scum tribune at this point pretty much guarantees that we're not going to lynch scum. Also, if we get a town tribune, that tribune vetoes a execution, and the day ends in a mislynch, our tribune is suddenly going to look suspicious. Even if they were right in their veto, the fact that the day ended with a mislynch makes it look like scum saving a scumbuddy. Unless they think there's a really high chance that the next next person on the chopping block will be scum, a town tribune has less incentive to actually use their power.

So do we even want a tribune? We're already having to take a chance on my townreads being accurate for consuls, why should we increase the chance of scum getting power when it's unlikely for town to even use that same power? However, if none of us vote for anyone, somebody could make a vote for themselves at the last second. So, I'm going to propose this idea: give me the tribunal power, and I will do nothing with it.

Vote: ribwich

[ribwich]

Is there something specific about his post you don't like, or is that just a general "Nate is scum, and he's pushing a lynch. So that's how scum push lynches"?

[ribwich]

Fonz and Sens - Does that mean you would be looking at Magua as the last mafia member if Nath flips scum? If not, why do you think Nath bothered to delay and eventually prevent the Kat lync? If yes, would you still look at Nath the same way if somehow Magua died before him and flipped town?

Nath - What happened during that period to get you a strong townread on Katsuki?

[ribwich]

Nath - What happened during that period to get you a strong townread on Katsuki?

[ribwich]

I still think the best course of action in regards to tribune is to just give the power to me and have nothing happen with it, but it's not that big of a deal right now. I'll push more heavily for it in later days when I think it'll be more important.

Nathaniel needs to claim now.

It's obvious that an execution is going to be put in on him. Not claiming now is just wasting what little time we have, and it gives him more time to come up with a believable claim if he is scum.

Parama is being scummy as usual.

[ribwich]

Not you too. Why is it obvious an execution would be put on him?

One consul has said he will do it right away, the other has Nathaniel on his "would execute" list, and the current tribune vote leader has expressed no interest in vetoing such an execution.

You probably have a point on the second part, but it still gives him more time to think about it and consider options.

[ribwich]

Nathanael, I want you to claim too.

[ribwich]

I found this post genuine. and I didn't like how everybody was pushing katsuki all over the place for nothing at all. I got a lot of scum-driven thing there.

1. What was it about the post that made you think it was genuine? As you can see from my post right below it, I didn't interpret it the same way.
2. In retrospect, do you still think that was a good decision? Do you still think there was a scum-driven thing going on now that you know the alignment of some of the people that were wagoning Kat?

I haven't read Feysal's post yet. I'll read it tomorrow.

[ribwich]

I know I said I'd get to reading everything yesterday, but I never did. Been busy lately. I'll for sure get to it tomorrow.

[ribwich]

Nathaniel, are you accusing Feysal of trying to earn town points by being the one most opposed to your lynch right before the flip, or is it something else about the defense that's making you suspicious of him? Who would you pick between Sens and Parama to be scummier?

[ribwich]

vote: ribwich

I wanted Feysal tribune so that we could finally get Parama killed, but it looks like scot will have to do it alone.

[ribwich]

Fonz, I thought you had a fairly strong town read on Parama. Why would you want someone that wants him dead to be tribune?

[ribwich]

Really? I thought it was pretty clear that Parama has been on the top of my suspects list for a long time now. Two posts before you voted for me I even said that I wanted him dead.

[ribwich]

I don't think Sens' argument holds as much weight now though with Spy being dead. There's most likely only one of them left alive, so there's no worry about a scum tribune saving his buddy.

[ribwich]

I don't really see how the way chesskid was acting towards Sens makes him town. He knew that if he kept doing it Sens was going to put in an execution on him, and it was very likely that Nate or one of the tribunes was going to veto it. He could have been trying to make Sens look bad while at the same time guaranteeing that he won't be executed.

[ribwich]

Can you give me until monday to make my case before putting in an execution? I'm not really seeing myself being online that much this weekend, and I want a chance to reread all of the players first.

[ribwich]

Haven't gotten a chance to do my reread yet, I'll get to it soon. Spyrex flipping scum makes me fairly confident Magua is town though.

[ribwich]

That would make a lot more sense if what Sens said had anything to do with WIFOM.

[ribwich]

Hurry up and execute someone, scot, before anyone manages to convince you to change your mind about not wanting to execute me.

Unless I just horribly misread everything, I was under the impression that Parama was calling this post WIFOM. That's what I was talking about.

[ribwich]

Oh dammit. For some reason I thought that said "Sorry, we're all out of the wine because your arguments against me used it all up."