Objection Redux - It's all over bar the shouting!

[magnus_orion]

vote: rhinox

good wagon

unvote

Vi's wagon is falling apart.

wut?
why, exactly, are you unvoting?

[magnus_orion]

on page 4... goddammit fate... how can you be so awesome and still have me hate you so much.
As of where I am, VV, rhinox, and vezo are the only acceptable votes. Everyone not voting these three needs to seriously reconsider. That is, unless something dramatic happens in the next two pages. Which I doubt.

[magnus_orion]

my opinions have not changed. Behold my abilities of pre-cogniscience.
Actually, you can throw GG on as a valid vote too, but not as strong as the other three.

I want answers regarding Vezok's unvote. Let's pray he's more cooperative than VV last game, or I might turn the blinders on again.

I also think the only reason rhinox has less votes than VV is cause VV is posting more. They're roughly equally scummy, and I have stronger scum vibes from rhinox via his higher scummy content:post ratio. At least, that's how it feels. It might just be a difference in content amounts between VV and rhinox.

[magnus_orion]

@M_O, is your reason for finding Rhinox scummy basically the same as Gamma?

Basically.

@VV: As I understand, you are effectively stating you intend not to make an attempt, or serious attempt, to read into fate's alignment during the course of this game, for whatever reasons, or as a consequence of whatever. Mainly this is an understanding brought on by considering the implications of your deference to power roles and the scum nk in regards to fate.
In addition, upon this being pointed out you made comments to the effect that fate is "unreadable", and that he should be vigged because his actions will either be a serious detriment to the town due to his tendency to gambit (implying you think fate is town) or nked because he tends to tunnel on scum, which is really useful to the town (implying you think fate is town). If you interpret your first "detriment to the town" as implying either town or scum, it still leaves the question of why vigging him would be good play given that he tends to tunnel on scum and hasn't attempted, at least, hasn't appeared to attempt a gambit which will be a serious detriment to the town. In addition, this would appear to be advocating scum night kill a player whom is potentially very useful to the town.
So we have you
1. Directing the vig, solely based on policy of what could come
2. Advocating the night kill of a player, noting that he has a tendency to tunnel on scum
While not necessarily scum-motivated, such actions tend to be avoided from a town view-point.

[magnus_orion]

EBWOP: My question to VV is whether or not this is a proper understanding of what he's said, or whether he feels additional warranted considerations are not taken into account.

[magnus_orion]

@VV: As I understand, you are effectively stating you intend not to make an attempt, or serious attempt, to read into fate's alignment during the course of this game, for whatever reasons, or as a consequence of whatever. Mainly this is an understanding brought on by considering the implications of your deference to power roles and the scum nk in regards to fate.
In addition, upon this being pointed out you made comments to the effect that fate is "unreadable", and that he should be vigged because his actions will either be a serious detriment to the town due to his tendency to gambit (implying you think fate is town) or nked because he tends to tunnel on scum, which is really useful to the town (implying you think fate is town). If you interpret your first "detriment to the town" as implying either town or scum, it still leaves the question of why vigging him would be good play given that he tends to tunnel on scum and hasn't attempted, at least, hasn't appeared to attempt a gambit which will be a serious detriment to the town. In addition, this would appear to be advocating scum night kill a player whom is potentially very useful to the town.
So we have you
1. Directing the vig, solely based on policy of what could come
2. Advocating the night kill of a player, noting that he has a tendency to tunnel on scum
While not necessarily scum-motivated, such actions tend to be avoided from a town view-point.

Well, I'm guessing you've never played with Fate before! This guy is nigh unreadable. I hope he fucking gets vigged ASAP. He does the same shit as Town and scum AND gets away with it because of his extremely annoying personality.

1.) If directing the vig to do the awesome thing by killing the 'possibly anti-Town unreadable player who gets away with the shit he does' is wrong, then hell lynch me for all I care. I will soo fucking laugh when I flip Town you all rip Fate a new asshole. (And then maybe proceed to lynching AGM/Spy + Fate vig or something.). Like or not, I see this as optimal play. Is it wrong to be opinionated on how to deal with certain players?

2.) Fate only ever Tunnels on scum when: a)He gets lucky and/or b) He's not being stupid. He's clearly being stupid now. I mean, LOOK AT THE FUCKING CASE ON ME. It is soo fucking ridiculous I DONT EVEN. He's twisting my statements like they are scumtells

when they are not

. I have argued that my actions are NOT scumtells and he procceds to twist it even more. I'm surprised people are actually buying that shit.

So, to further my understanding, if Fate rarely tunnels on scum, why do you believe the chances he will be nked were sufficiently high as to include it in the initial list of possible fates for Fate? IIRC, your reasoning for asserting Fate would probably be nked was that he tends to tunnel on scum, however, you are now asserting that he only rarely does so? Or am I to understand Fate get's lucky/is not stupid fairly often, and his, as you claim, "being stupid" in this case, is the rare event?

[magnus_orion]

why isn't vezok answering my questions?

[magnus_orion]

@ Vezok:

vote: rhinox

good wagon

unvote

Vi's wagon is falling apart.

wut?
why, exactly, are you unvoting?

This is a serious question. I'm confused about your rationale for what you did here.
Please respond.

[magnus_orion]

I'd rather VV not be lynched prior to a claim. plz.

[magnus_orion]

Frankly, as a physics major, I'd advise you to do so as well.

I'm just a generally cautious person, k?

[magnus_orion]

@VV: none of your cases add up. Sorry. There is literally nothing there.

@Fate: Most of your case is useless too. If VV is scum, its because if you shoot enough times you'll eventually hit your target. Not because of your incredible sharp shooting skills. Only a tiny fraction of your case has any merit at all. In actuality, I'm tempted to assert that the lack of resistance this wagon is getting is indicative of town-vv. But I've been screwed by this reasoning in the past, so I'm not sure how much I trust it now. I still think its important, however, to question the people on the wagon and fully understand their motivations.
I don't understand the additional benefit of rushing into this lynch.

[magnus_orion]

In the meantime, magnus_orion can protest/waffle less and do something meaningful with his life.

Sorry you feel that way. Everything I want to say is being said.

I would recommend a megalynch on Rhinox like rite nao but the power of the b&wagon is kind of compelling. I'm not superhyped that VasudeVasudeVasudeVasudeVasudeVaVasudeVa will flip scum but the chance of him leaving the game via means other than lynch is fairly minimal; and between the Vanilla claim, the unhelpful scumhunting, and the fact that a majority already wants him dead anyway I can't work myself up to being opposed to this lynch.

This is, like, a perfect summary of my position on this game.
Except I like to stall more cause I like long day 1s. And information. Lots of information, long day 1s. This whole 11 page day 1 is totally ridiculous to me.

[magnus_orion]

meh. It depends on the game's speed. And how often people are posting/have to catch up. And what is being posted.
But this is a large theme. 11 pages on day 1? I mean, at least reach 20. ugh. Whatever, I'm not seriously opposed to VV's lynch.

[magnus_orion]

Also also, I don't like mangus stalling the lynch - stalling usually leads to wagon shifts. If VV flips scum magnus is probably a buddy.

Or maybe I think Rhinox has got a better shot at being scum than VV and would prefer rhinox start posting to verify or nullify my suspicions.

[magnus_orion]

ebwop: by which I mean that I'd probably end up preferring a wagon shift onto rhinox.

[magnus_orion]

there's nothing left to say. Hence the need more posting from rhinox.
I already said why. Rhinox has more scumminess to content ratio than VV, VV just has more thread noise, which invariably leads to an increase in the amount you read someone as scum.

And I say we need longer day 1s which is just something I always think. You can check my past games to verify that I am a strong believer in long day 1s. I said 20 before, but really that's what I see as good for minis, this is a large, so I think more like 40 is appropriate, but there's no way I'm getting that much with these people.

[magnus_orion]

more info = more things to call scummy.
is what I mean.
and what's that about delusion? Does that have to do with your picking at my semantics or with something else?

[magnus_orion]

Most people commit things that could be interpreted as scumtells frequently. If I had been lurking instead of mentioning my preference for long day 1s, you'd have nothing to call me a buddy for. I'm town, doesn't mean I don't say things that can't be interpreted as scummy.
and just for sake of completeness, he's scummier per amount of content he posts than VV. Not because he's posting less. Because when he does post, they contain more scummy content per post than does VV's posts.

[magnus_orion]

because, as I said before, most of your case was noise.
you had some valid points, and VV's reactions were certainly interesting, but it could have been shortened to only few valid points
Whereas most of the points against rhinox's few and brief posts have been valid (there may have been some noise, I think I recall something having to do with meta and smilies that I could have done without)


Preview edit: I have neither the time, patience, will, reason, or interest in deconstructing your case against VV. If He can't respond to your points adequately it doesn't mean that I can't see an interpretation where he can. Just because I *could* see wiggle room out of most of your case doesn't mean I should pass out directions rather than watch for VV's response.

[magnus_orion]

if it isn't clear what I mean I should go on to say that in absence of anything more to push on rhinox, my only option to push a rhinox wagon would be to defend VV, hence the dilemma

[magnus_orion]

I wasn't aware of the site meta against people who go V/LA. Please do go on.

[magnus_orion]

Yes, I'm willing to watch VV burn because I don't have evidence suggesting he is that incompetent townie. He may very well be scum. I just think Rhinox has more of a chance of being scum.
Also, more wagons are quite useful, please, feel free. I would be quite pleased, because, as you pointed out, the day would be longer.

once again for sake of completeness, because I'm being misunderstood, I simply wish rhinox to post to check my suspicions (hence verify or nullify). I may find rhinox's towniness outweighs his prior scuminess.

[magnus_orion]

9_9 Just because I haven't demonstrated what's wrong with it doesn't mean it doesn't have problems nor that I can't be aware of those problems and act accordingly. Your arguments are illogical

Preview edit: My current stance is that I would prefer rhinox lynched because he's committed more scumtells per content. Hence the vote.
I have a stance. But I can do one better and verify that stance with additional information. Which I find, on the whole, better than not. Explain to me how my current stance is fence-sitting.

[magnus_orion]

or, are you certain of VV's alignment. If, hypothetically, VV posts right now, and were to claim innocent child, and faraday were to confirm it, I assume that this additional information may affect your read on him? I feel I must reiterate Hypothetically?

[magnus_orion]

to explain that additional information can be a valuable asset is re-evaluating one's reads. Via example.

[magnus_orion]

to explain that additional information can be a valuable asset is re-evaluating one's reads. Via example.

Well its a fucking stupid analogy. If your POINT was "if VV were to come in, start posting gold and not trash, would that not affect your read on him? That is my stance on Rhinox" THEN FUCKING SAY THAT>

GAWD.


AGM BACK ON THE VV WAGON. I WANT HIM DAED DEAD LETS NOT GET SIDE TRACKED.

sorry.

9_9 Just because I haven't demonstrated what's wrong with it doesn't mean it doesn't have problems nor that I can't be aware of those problems and act accordingly. Your arguments are illogical

Preview edit: My current stance is that I would prefer rhinox lynched because he's committed more scumtells per content. Hence the vote.
I have a stance. But I can do one better and verify that stance with additional information. Which I find, on the whole, better than not. Explain to me how my current stance is fence-sitting.

It is FENCE sitting because you've said in basically these words:

"Rhinox is scummier than VV atm, but if Rhinox posts maybe he will be townier than VV or scummier, I cannot say."
"VV is scummy and I want his mislynch to go through, as I at first "did not want to defend him through the wiggle room in the case against him" but NOW its "I have no evidence that VV is just an incompetent townie.""


Must...

RESIST>


MUST


RESRAWRKJAIJFIWAJFWA{

I never said its a mislynch.
I don't know VV's alignment. All I know is some of the case against VV doesn't fully wash. Doesn't mean the case can't still be coincidentally right. False reasoning can draw an accurate conclusion.
Plus some of the points are pretty compelling.
I just find the case against rhinox MORE compelling.

[magnus_orion]

OK then here's the most important question:

Why aren't you VOTING VV?

I just find the case against rhinox MORE compelling.

Geez, if you really want me to say something so bad, I'll head down the playerlist:
UK has been pretty meh this game, but meh, so have I.
fate is probably town
Vi I think is town.
VV has been a centerpiece for a while now, scummy.
jahudo I have no opinion
socio I just don't believe in reading him anymore
vezok I'm rather unhappy with. ScummySpyreX I generally find agreeable, townish
alamaster the vote against me was fairly pro-active. If VV is town, write down alamaster as very likely town.
elli isn't posting a lot, and I don't have a good reference like last time, so I don't really have an opinion here yet. Give it, like, 10 or more pages
Magnus is clearly town.
GG has said a lot of stuff that just rubbed me funny even if I agree with them. I don't know, something just feels off here. Scummy with a "I could be looking too far into this, take a wait and see approach"
Rhinox is my number 1 suspect, and someone I'd like to see a lot more of. Scum
Papa Zito... haven't really been paying much attention to him. On reflection, hasn't moved vote from vi, hasn't taken clear stance. Scummy.

[magnus_orion]

Magnus?

That is a horrific list of reads. You fence sit on everyone except the one that the majority agreed are scummy.

and people ask why I haven't been saying anything when

Everything I want to say is being said.

But okay, indulge me, what are your reads vezok?

[magnus_orion]

dude it was like 2 in the morning when I was talking to you, plus I don't memorize my cases or reasoning against players, I just keep a running tally in my head.
So yes, I don't remember the case against rhinox without looking back.
Yes, I usually can only remember when things bother me and can't remember why.
Yes, I recall that what did bother me was mentioned by other people already.
Yes, at 2 in the morning I don't have the motivation to go back and shift through everything.
Does this make me scum? No.

AND IF HE WERE A TOWN SHEEP HED BE ON THE MAIN FUCKIN WAGON LETTIN IT COMPLETE.

This is just dumb.

Geez, at least Vi made the case look decent.

[magnus_orion]

to reword fate's case for brevity, I believe it could be accurately stated as:
If magnus chooses to agree with some points made by other people, he must choose to agree with all points made by other people, or must present points unique to himself. He may not choose that he agrees with some points and not others. This is scummy. For... some reason.

It should be obvious the fallacy involved here.

Since my knowledge or lack thereof of a case involving rhinox seems to be a hot topic I will go over the points against rhinox.

unvote, vote VuVu

for teh counterwagonz

Vi is way too much fun to lynch on day 1.

Here Rhinox randomly decides to vote VV for the sake of avoiding a Vi wagon during the RVS despite having already made a random vote against SpyreX. This is highly disconcerting, as Rhinox should have no concern involving Vi's wagon.

Aww Rhinox, you need to stop being scum in my games.~

Also, how's the no-longer-a-puppy?

Probably pissed at me. Left her behind while I traveled away for thanksgiving.

Rhinox for VV's scumbuddy 2010.

Cuz we all know how that worked out LAST TIME

I like what Jahudo said.

unvote, vote vezok

It becomes increasingly obvious that Rhinox didn't have any additional reasoning behind his second RVS vote, since he drops it the second there is a different case on the table.

Fate proceeds to make a big deal about the "LAST TIME" comment, for some reason.

<3 Fate.

you're the one who called it fake meta. I seem to remember a few people in /in 11 calling me scum with VV and DGB. If you think i would seriously use that as evidence to say I am not scum especially not with VV in this game rather than just joking around, then well maybe you don't know me as well as you think you do.

would it make it any better if I went back to voting VV? I don't really feel like being the word of reason preventing his lynch all game again

P. edit shit can't do that now it would be OMGUS

While he responds to Fate's comments, he leaves open the other situations going on around him, in particular his opinion on VV is left ambiguous. While his comment could be implied as an advocation of defense of VV, it could also merely be a joke, and the fact that he leaves this ambiguous is highly unsatisfying.

The reason I find this more compelling than the case against VV is that the rest of Rhinox's posting is mere fluff. And very light fluff at that. VV actually made an effort to make points and do things, etc. His posting takes up a great deal more space than that of Rhinox, hence he has a greater amount of content, so more to pick at. The end result, as I stated before, is that if we divide scumminess by content for these two individuals, we find Rhinox has a much higher ratio, hence why I find the case against him more compelling.

HOWEVER. I also recognize that Rhinox is V/LA and that there is a severe lack of information concerning him available. As such, in my opinion, the best course of action is to try and get additional information in order to weigh this more adequately against the wealth of VV information already available.

preview edit: Something that looks decent need not also be decent in terms of effectiveness. So no, I did not admit that the case against me was decent in that it was accurate. Merely that it was worded convincingly and made me believe that the positions being brought against me could actually be held by rational individuals.

[magnus_orion]

Did I say I wanted him to burn? No, I said I was willing to watch him burn.
I want rhinox over VV atm.
Try and keep things straight okay?


I would prefer a wagon on rhinox over myself. But a wagon on me or anyone else certainly wouldn't hurt in the information dept. I already got a conditional read on AGM out of his vote on me.

[magnus_orion]

no it doesn't.
It implies that if I'm wrong about what I think VV might be, I have more info on AGM.

[magnus_orion]

You should be lynched for this right fucking here, magnus. That's about the scummiest damn thing I've seen said in this game so far.

What, why?

Congrats Magnus. You may have saved VV for another day. That's what you wanted, wasn't it?

No. That my be an incidental consequence of what I'd prefer. But I'm not opposed to his lynch. I just support a different one more.

There's not a whole lot else to say. Even ignoring the VV behavior a lot of mango's "views" this game are WAY more beneficial to scum.

how so?

@UK: what's your opinion on rhinox?

[magnus_orion]

That statement was related to how VV has posted more than Rhinox, not in reference to how I want longer days. But the interpretation in the direction you indicated is certainly available, although unintended.
Specifically I feel if Rhinox had been posting to an extent that was equal to the extent to which VV has been posted, Rhinox would definitely have more votes on him, based on extrapolation from what he has posted. If that makes sense?
I think the best way of framing the idea I'm trying to get across is the scumminess/content description I've been using.

read, "we need longer days so Rhinox can post more and I can find more reasons to call him scummy and derail the VV lynch muahahaha."

read I believe if Rhinox posted more people would see him as scummier than VV.
But if Rhinox comes in here and, as fate put it, posts gold, well, that'll change my opinion. But based on what he has posted, I think he is more likely scum than VV.

preview edit: you gonna get back to me on those reads vezok?

[magnus_orion]

I suppose a more brief way to frame my response to these criticisms is that they are confusing more information in general with more information about an individual. I prefer more information in general. But if its all concerning 1 individual, then the likelyhood that individual will be percieved as scummy by the town rises. I don't prefer such a skewed increase in information.

[magnus_orion]

...
UK's probably town, that frustration seemed legit.
Can someone tell me if Vezok normally tries to avoid taking positions like this?

preview edits:
@AGM: Read the full quote:

VV just has more thread noise

, which invariably leads to an increase in the amount you read someone as scum.

One person with a concentration of information about them invariably increases the amount you read them as scum.

m_o - You're actually very calm right now, in spite of being quadrupleflamed. Why?

Cause I'm used to it. A lot of my views on the site go against the acceptable ones. I usually get attacked a lot as town. I tend to avoid this sort of thing as scum though /wifom
and Oh shit Rhinox posted... I'll have to read that now.

[magnus_orion]

huh. While the obvious scum-move would be to hop onto either me or VV, rhinox does neither but leaves both those options open....
@rhinox: have you played with UK before?

[magnus_orion]

@"Why does it matter?": Just wanted to verify and make note of meta connections or lack thereof based on your comments. Its something to keep in mind when comparing what you think about a specific statement compared to what I think.

m_o: Might I suggest a different playstyle in the future?

I don't think making scum associations without flips is a good idea at all.

o rly magnus? you were ONLY talking about VV/Rhinox?

which invariably leads to an increase in the amount you read someone as scum.

if you were referring to a specific person, then why do you say "someone" instead of him?

more info = more things to call scummy.
is what I mean.

sounds like a pretty general concept to me. more posts = more stuff to attack doesn't JUST apply to VV/Rhinox.

Most people

commit things that could be interpreted as scumtells frequently. If I had been lurking instead of mentioning my preference for long day 1s, you'd have nothing to call me a buddy for. I'm town, doesn't mean I don't say things that can't be interpreted as scummy.

Bolded mine, MOST PEOPLE. Not just VV and Rhinox.

I'm talking about most individuals generally. This isn't specific to VV or rhinox. This can apply to any individual. If the information concerning that individual is disproportionately greater to the amount of information concerning most people, the probability that individual will appear scummy to people goes up.
If you have a general increase in information such that it remains roughly evenly distributed in reference to all players, my belief is that can (almost) always be good. (There is such a thing as general information flooding, But I don't want to get into that discussion, nor does it seem a problem here)

[magnus_orion]

@AGM: *sigh* look I'll do a diagram for you

Graph:
BAD (DO NOT WANT)
Persons.... Information concerning them
A....
B....................................
C............
D.......
E..........

GOOD (DO WANT)
Persons.... Information concerning them
A...................
B...............
C....................
D.................
E..................

Notice how if the first (Bad) graph, there is a disproportionate amount of information concerning player B. Player B will as a result appear more scummy to players.
However, in the second (good) graph, there is a roughly even distribution (I assume actual evenness to be nearly impossible in practice), this is good. Since there is no dis proportionality, the effects of mutual increase in information will cancel. If one "dot" more of information is added to every player on the second graph, it continues to be a "good" graph.

[magnus_orion]

oh yeah and graphs 1 and 2 are both general. The letters could be replaced with any arbitrary player names.

[magnus_orion]

didn't I address a lot of that already? I've called PZ, vezok scummy. But this isn't the only consideration I make. Its just a major one when I was considering rhinox vs. VV.
This isn't a hard and fast rule, there are such things as outliers, and people whose play is so generally pro-town (or simply so aggressive) that they can post a whole lot and not appear scummy (or simply not be attacked for it). There is a dependency on the player and their content/style.
This is just something I keep in mind when the game becomes hyper-focused around certain individuals. When I do ask for more information, I just generally hope that some of it will achieve a more stable equilibrium.
@PZ: wait, what?

alright, so... does that mean you don't agree with UK being scummy then? what do you think about the points I brought up?

I don't agree, but that's because I just got a town read on UK for other reasons. TBH I'm less concerned with what your case means for UK and more concerned with what it means for you. But I should REALLY be working on homework right now, so... that'll have to wait til I have more time.

preview edit: @PZ: wait, wait, what?

[magnus_orion]

M_o actually reads like that guy who tries to say "I really like you" but actually blurts out the summoning ritual for Cthulhu and then pees his pants and runs away.

O_O
...

I-I um... well er... ah...
...
uh...


...sure.

@M_O: Was your VV read ever ranked?

I haven't been ranking my reads in this game. Except I think I said Rhinox was number 1 scum read at one point. Other than that, no they haven't been. But that's basically the idea I've been trying to get across, what with the whole preference business.

@PZ: what justification do you see in the UK case?
@ rhinox: How much of the UK case do you believe is valid/worth considering?
I look forward to your response to UK's criticisms, as well.

@vezok: reads? Plz?

[magnus_orion]

I look forward to thoughts from DTMaster.

My request of reads from vezok still stands.

[magnus_orion]

Oh that's so fucking rich. Right up until the 11th hour VV REFUSED to comment on his Rhinoxerousness

Even in his final player list.

So yeah VV, here I am saying I'M NOT SORRY FOR THAT LYNCH.

MAGNUS LAME VOTE ON RHINOX + HIS POST DJOUR OF: Herp rhinoz flipped scum and all I want for christmas is dtm and vezok to post content so I can fade into the background leads me to:

Why the hell is he town SpyreX?

How, exactly, do you think I'm trying to fade into the background?

Meh I think vezok is town, but well go through the motions and get a claim cause of said townvig.

Its town lists time also now so the vig has more reads, and of course I elect princess ellie to go first

Ok, what cause do you have for believing vezok town?

[magnus_orion]

@sociopath: I don't think I''ve been mafia in a game with you as town have I?

[magnus_orion]

@Fate: You should really learn to ask people questions before drawing completely wrong conclusions. People might draw the wrong conclusion and think you're unintelligent. You'll note I haven't said anything in my defense in regards to socio's meta argument. I was going to state that he has a legit point. I have been playing differently recently, I'm aware of it, socio's noticed, he's commented to that affect. He feels its vote worthy. I can't argue against that. I didn't argue against it yesterday, I'm not planning on arguing it today. So I choose not to. However, it is something socio has said, and I can use that to judge his alignment.
What I asked was whether he played with me as scum before, it is because I want to confirm that I know where he is coming from. I'm fairly certain I do. Now what I have to do is decide how likely it is for scum or town to make a meta argument like this against a player.
I'm inclined to believe scum would prefer to avoid meta, which bodes well for socio-town.

[magnus_orion]

Considering DT claimed a role that basically NEEDS to die at some point, I think its a fair bet that DT is town.
Vezok's role is confirmable in terms of ability. I'm not sure how likely it is that there'd be a neighborizor power for scum, but DT makes a good point in that vezok's soft claim about keeping fate alive matches up with his claim.
Then again, there's no reason not to soft claim with that kind of ability as scum. *shrug*
I still want reads from vezok.

@DT: I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from with the Jahudo and Rhinox interaction, could you explain that better please?

Elli is looking like a good way to go. Elli doesn't talk much normally, however, so.... I'd kinda like to see more from Elli before choosing whether to jump on him.

[magnus_orion]

@DT: are you reading all this from iso? Did you read the game proper? Cause there was significant space between Rhino's 180 on Jahudo. Are you taking that into consideration?
Personally, what I find weird is that Rhinox's case on Jahudo seems to some degree stronger than his case on UK, but he chooses to push the UK case instead, and weakens the Jahudo case he makes with meta.

[magnus_orion]

Vezok. Reads. Now.
@Fate: Spyrex!?!?!

[magnus_orion]

Games I've played with you. Liar Game... that one where I was an invisible SK, the other objection game....

[magnus_orion]

idk. It's hard for me to understand. Socio has a legit reason to vote me based on meta. Vezok seems to be voting me cause Fate's voting me, and Fate is voting me because........ *shrug*

[magnus_orion]

yeah, it definitely works. I just don't think it follows that Spyrex is scum. I wish I could find better problem with the reasoning than that I don't think spyrex thought it all the way through, because I think spyrex is town. That aside, I do know that the worst case scenario today is that we lynch the vig:

town lynches vig -1 town
scum kill dtm -1 town
scum kill -1 town
3 dead town
0 dead scum
0 additional


So,
its a fact that there is a, presumably not-mafia, killing role that killed rhinox, so this role exists.
its a fact that spyrex claimed the kill, and the accompanying role.
its a fact that spyrex hasn't been counterclaimed.
If these facts do not change than the worst thing we could do is lynch spyrex.
I think the best thing we could do is not lynch spyrex without a counterclaim, and if there is one, have the two "vigs" kill each other, so we don't accidentally lynch the wrong one:

town lynches not dtm not vig player: -1 player
scum kills vig vig kills scum: -1 town -1 scum
town lynches not dtm: -1 player
scum kills dtm -1 town
scum kills -1 town
3 dead town
1 dead scum
2 additional

OR

town lynches not dtm not vig player: -1 player
scum kills dtm vig kills scum: -1 town -1 scum
scum kills vig vig kills: -1 town -1 player
town lynches: -1 player
scum kills: -1 town
3 dead town
1 dead scum
3 additional

[magnus_orion]

Also, sociopath's recent attack feels more scum motivated than town. While its a fact that its better not to lynch dtm, he's decided to use this fact to establish why spyrex's opinions were motivated by a desire to hurt the town, as opposed to merely establishing why this course of action is better. Taking into consideration that it wasn't immediately obvious that no lynching dtm was the better option, this attack thus seems to take a baseless level of assumed malicious intent on spyrex's part.
Although sociopath also just continued to vote elli, so his position is sort of confusing as well.

preview edit: Okay, that explains the lack of vote on spyrex, but doesn't explain how spyrex could possibly be scum without a counterclaim, since you do state that spyrex is scum, but the reason for not lynching him, which you just acknowledged, assumes him to be the vig (ie. not scum), in absence of a counterclaim.

[magnus_orion]

um... why wouldn't the actual vig counterclaim without you saying anything?

[magnus_orion]

Explain.

[magnus_orion]

@Spyrex:
*cough*

if 1 shot vig:
town lynch dtm -1 town
scum kill -1 town
town lynch -1 person
scum kill -1 town
3 town death
0 scum death
1 additional


town don't lynch dtm -1 person
scum kill dtm -1 town
scum kill -1 town
town lynch -1 person
scum kill -1 town
3 town death
0 scum death
2 additional

[magnus_orion]

@AGM: Fate's spewing nonsense, socio should know better, so socio might be scum, Spyrex and DTM are both town.

[magnus_orion]

SHORT ABND LLONG… THERE WAS NO REASON FOR MO TO PARK HIS VOTE OJ RHINOX WITH TEHEE FENCE SITTING UNLESS HIS SCUM PALZ WERE ALREADY PN THE VV MISLYNCH.

That is, if you are ignoring the actual case of what happened: I believed (realized) rhinox was a better candidate for scum than VV was.

And yes, I'm less inclined to believe I'm right, and want to gather more info. Because I tend to believe I suffer from confirmation bias, and like to second guess myself. I'm not satisfied without hearing more from my suspects.

And what do you want me to say, "HAHAHAHHAHA I was right!" ?
My reads didn't change, they were verified. They carried over from the day prior. And I didn't get my uber long day 1. I still want more infos.

[magnus_orion]

Right, townies shouldn't defend themselves, I forgot. My bad. /sarcasm.

So I'm being accused of...
1. Gathering info
2. Voting scum
3. defending myself.

:\ Yeah, I have trouble believing the case on me is solid.


preview edit: does it help that I was ninja'd several times? That's not four minutes.

[magnus_orion]

cause I'm lazy and I don't do that every time.
jeez.

[magnus_orion]

Please note that sociopath didn't explain what I asked last time.
I think sociopath is scum.

Preview edit: K, then I have no idea what Fate is trying to accuse me of.

[magnus_orion]

no I mean before accusing me of the strongman, of course.
If your case is OMG OBVSCUM then there's really no room to contest that, which is probably the point, seeing as how I've debunked all your rational arguments.

Fine, I'll claim, I don't mind:
I'm Miles Edgeworth,
I'm a Town Reporter, which means I can target someone and find out if they used an active ability last night.
I targeted DTM last night and they did not use an active ability.

[magnus_orion]

Cause I was fairly certain of rhinox-scum. I figured I could get him lynched today. If I checked PZ I might find additional scum.

[magnus_orion]

A conditional read based on VV being TOWN. Why the fuck would you spin your read THHAT WAY IF YOU THINK VV IS SCUM AS PER YOUR OWN DAMN READS?

You first thought was agm is town if vv is, NOT agm is vvs scumbuddy making leaps of faith.

WHICH IMPLIES YOU KNOW VV IS FUCKIN FLIPPIN TOWN AND YOU DON'T GENIUNE?Y SUSPECT HIM

THIS IS STILL VALID AS I EXPECTED MANGO KNEW VV WAS TOWN AND GAVE AGM A TOWN READ BASED OFF THAT.


AGMS CONFIRMED TOWN

heh. You give me too much credit, I'm not that good at identifying if someone is town. But thanks.

[magnus_orion]

YOU ARE IF YOU'RE SCUM. I'M NOT GIVINGF U KACL SHIT CREDIT.

YOU SAID U THOUGHT VV QWAS DEATH WORTHY and not worth defending.

YOU THEN SAID IF VV FLIPS TOWN AGM IS TOWN.

THERE'S SOMETHING OFF IN THSE TWON SENTENCES

why?

Oh and you THOUGHT you could get rhinox lynched today???

1. Yoour role would confirm/out him if he was run up todday, aka still. A good choice
2. Ur role doesn't catch scums unless run up...
3. Ou thought u could get him lynched today??? WHY COULDN'T U GET HIM LYNCHED YESTERSAYA? CUZ IU WEREN'T EVEN TRYINH. NOT EVEN AFTER HECAME BACK FROM VLA

Hmm, you tell me, why couldn't I get him lynched yesterday? Perhaps its because of the mislynch you were pushing with all your might? The whole, "I don't care why as along as they vote the same person as me" attitude you seem to have? 'Sides, there was time to run him up tomorrow, and I thought the possibility that VV was scum existed, so it was worth seeing where that went. In hindsight, yeah, it woulda been better to have opposed VV's lynch, but from my perspective prior VV-scum was a real possibility.

[magnus_orion]

Mag, how were you planning on getting Rhino lynched TODAY. Like...pretend he didn't die at night. What would you have done and stuff?

um... attacked him...
I guess maybe I put too much faith in the town's ability to make the right decisions? IDK, I just sorta figured it would be easy, since he seemed so obvscum to me.

I really don't get the whole NOT investigating top-suspect with that ability....because you don't catch scum with it anyway. You wouldn't have been able to use whatever result on PZ until post-RHino dead right>?

Yeah, I guess. I didn't really put a lot of thought into the decision, cause I figured it wasn't a particularly useful power anyway.

[magnus_orion]

@sociopath: I was asking you to explain your reasoning back there, not defend yourself. Why aren't you explaining? You replied with nonsense, then told me my reply to that was missing the point and then dropped the entire conversation altogether.
I really don't understand what you're trying to get at with that quote. Could you explain this as well? I mean, I'd respond, except I'd probably miss the point entirely, yeah?

[magnus_orion]

yeah, now the giant VV thing fate's attack created out of the way it'd be a lot easier.

[magnus_orion]

oh, right

I was asking you to explain your reasoning back there, not defend yourself. Why aren't you explaining? You replied with nonsense, then told me my reply to that was missing the point and then dropped the entire conversation altogether.

EXPLAIN

@vezok: yeah its been about 29 hours since this:

I will give my reads in a few minutes

[magnus_orion]

oh, yeah, and:

I was asking you to explain your reasoning back there, not defend yourself. Why aren't you explaining? You replied with nonsense, then told me my reply to that was missing the point and then dropped the entire conversation altogether.

EXPLAIN

@vezok: yeah its been about 29 hours since this:

I will give my reads in a few minutes

[magnus_orion]

@UK: could you explain the points you think you see? I'd really like to know what the case against me is.

Socio starts off saying my meta is bothering him, which is fine. Follows it up with that I could've been bussing... alright I guess. I mean sure, I COULD have been bussing. It's conceivable. It's also conceivable that I wasn't bussing.
AGM says YEAH! And also comments about being drunk
Fate says that we should listen to drunken philosophers (so I'm scum because AGM made a comment of agreement whilst being drunk.) and votes me
AGM then says that I'll dig holes for myself, whereas vezok intends to stall, so fate should vote vezok. Fate replies that Vezok needs to claim without being voted
AGM agrees and votes me....
Fate demands Vezok vote me... so Vezok does
Fate then posts this:

SHORT ABND LLONG… THERE WAS NO REASON FOR MO TO PARK HIS VOTE OJ RHINOX WITH TEHEE FENCE SITTING UNLESS HIS SCUM PALZ WERE ALREADY PN THE VV MISLYNCH.

I notice when I check the thread and begin to reply to it, during which fate makes a series of posts.
When my reply goes through I added some additional comments related to a few of those posts, but it turns up 4 minutes after fate's most recent post.
Fate brings this up and Spyrex proceeds to vote me.

I point out that the case against me is awful... so sociopath votes me.

Fate accuses me of strawmanning and I claim

That's it.
I don't understand.
I mean looking at it now it boils down to that I COULD have been bussing, and that
I guess there was no reason for me as town to vote rhinox unless scum were voting VV? Maybe? Fate can you make the part I quoted here clearer?
I mean that doesn't even make sense.

[magnus_orion]

I've been asking questions. I'm trying to obtain reads until I'm reasonably convinced someone is a good lynch, at which point I intend to attack them and see how they respond and push their lynch. I'd be asking more if people weren't just ignoring my questions.

Look
DT - town
Spyrex - town
Fate - town
UK - town
Jahudo - meh (townish)
Elli - meh
socio - scummy
gamma - townish
Agm - town
magnus - town
vezok - Arrgh (townish by claim only)


Ugh, fine, I've waited long enough for socio to answer.

vote: sociopath

I believe his attack against spyrex was scum motivated. His nonsensical/nonexistent responses have done little to dissuade me from this. His reasons for not voting spyrex fly straight in the face of his reasons for calling spyrex scum. Despite my pressing he refuses to acknowledge or explain this away. The entire point of calling spyrex scum seems to be, in my view, weighing the plausibility of a spyrex wagon, which he already knew support existed for, via fate.

[magnus_orion]

yeah, I know, you said it first, but I have a lot less confidence in your scumhunting than sociopath. You just attack whatever you can, because you know that makes you look town, and every so often you hit a point people agree with and it snowballs. Socio, I've played with a bit, and I expect better from him.

[magnus_orion]

No, you pick a handful of people and tunnel. And don't second guess yourself. It is a bit more refined than flailing but it does still lead to relatively bad cases.
And you do it because you know it makes you look town, it doesn't follow that you're scum. You can do something cause you know it makes you look town, and be town.

[magnus_orion]

Also, off topic, the Taj Mahal is made of marble.

[magnus_orion]

... what? He doesn't know their alignments...
I'm saying that once he decides someone is scum, he just keeps attacking them until the whole thing snowballs. I presume the reason he does this is because he knows he doesn't get lynched when he does this, hence the whole "magnus is trying to fade into the background by asking questions therefore he is scum" implying he thinks town should be actively attacking someone, at the center of what's going on, which has been a pretty prevalent theme of his play. I think his eagerness to attack with abandon is a town-tell, but I don't think it's particularly great scumhunting behavior is all.

Anyway, my opinion is that fate is more prone to make the attack in question than sociopath, hence why I still think fate is town, but I still suspect sociopath for it.

Preview edit: yeah, I did say that, but I said it because Rhino hadn't been talking at the time. I expected him to talk LATER, and continue to talk. I'd have more things to read when he's actively making content. Its not really a difficult concept. SPEAKING OF: I WANT YOU TO EXPLAIN, SOCIO!

[magnus_orion]

I seem to have a streak of getting progressively worse at finding the scum scummy as a game wears on... this is becoming an annoying trend. I'll need to figure out a way to rectify this.