Blackest Night Mafia (GAME OVER!)

[Kast]

Hi all,
Sorry for being completely inactive; have been travelling and didn't have any internet access. Posting from Shanghai airport atm. Was going to try catching up while I wait for my flight...but the internet here is wonky and won't load full pages. Catchup will wait til after the flight.

[Kast]

Thoughts I noted while reading from 1-17. Will try to finish the rest tonight with overall summary. If not tonight, probably will have to wait til Monday.
@Andy-
-Dislike. EVERYONE has power rings (color = Color of Ring). If you genuinely think everyone got the same warning, your warning seems unnecessary. If you don't actually believe that, then at best it seems like unnecessarily making yourself a target and at worst it's a fishing attempt.
-Agree that flavor makes

Orange

an obvious ring thief. Oddly, you left out the much more flavor relevant info that

Orange

ESPECIALLY wants a

Blue

ring.

@Spy claiming

Orange

2nd-
-It's harmless and it's consistent with what he said and plausible for Spyrex. SK is almost always the hardest faction to win with. There's a lot of high quality players in this game and I'd expect many of them were interested in the challenge offered. Slotting

Orange

as second pick is consistent with being open to SK but preferring Town.
-It's been mentioned, but Spy was mistaken. Getting his 1st pick says nothing about existance of an

Orange

.
Kdub's (and others') attack doesn't apply. The rules in signups allow for 0 or 1 SK. It seems clear that Spy assumed SK would be given if at least one person asked for it. If he got SK, then nobody else chose it. If he didn't get it, then someone else chose it. If he didn't even list

Orange

, then he has no info on existence or non-existence of an SK (until he read rules ITT).

@Flavor Relevance-
-RC enjoys/is good at writing deep/rich flavor. Don't really know Danakillsu's modding style. RC takes the flavor pretty seriously, and I'd expect any "flavor" clues from him to be game relevant.
As for possibly useful info:

Spoiler: Additional Source Info

In addition to the regular lantern corpsmen, there are several heros and villians who get power rings and become lanterns. There are also several people who are associated with multiple colors during the series. Additionally, even though

Green

,

Blue

,

Indigo

, &

Violet

are all town, they are separate factions in the source material.

Spoiler: Color Characteristics

Red

-Lead: Atrocitus-Doesn't get along with anyone and wants to kill pretty much everyone. Anger can be soothed by Blue Lanterns. Opposite of Violet Lanterns. This is one of the smaller corps.

Orange

-Lead: Larfleeze (later recruits Lex Luthor)-Selfish and independent. Really wants a Blue ring (wants other rings too). He makes energy copies of the people he kills.

Yellow

-Lead: Sinestro (Rebels led by Mongul)-Sinestro was a former Green Lantern and has a grudge with them and Hal Jordan.

Green

-Lead(s): Guardians/Hal Jordan (Lots of other Green Lanterns)-The Green Lanterns are typical good guys. Hal Jordan has history with Sinestro and with Carol (Star Sapphire).

Blue

-Lead(s): Guardians(Ganthet & Sayd)/Saint Walker-Blue Lanterns are on very good terms with the Green Lanterns and gain more power when workign with a Green Lantern. This is one of the smaller corps.

Indigo

-Lead: Indigo 1-A very mysterious group. Keeps to themselves, but assembles and works with all other lantern corps to defeat the Black Lanterns.

Violet

-Lead: Aga'Po/Carrol Ferris (Star Sapphire)-Originally villians, Carol essentially leads them to work with Hal and the Green lantern corps to defeat the Black Lanterns.
Of note: All 7 colors eventually team up to defeat the Black Lanterns. There are also several White Lanterns who form from the Superheros who died and were reborn (White Lanterns include power of all 7 colors)

@Vi-
-Agreed that there's really no obligation to answer irrelevant questions if you don't want to. It's also not a big deal to answer them.
-Your initial response looks like you were directly answering the question. Again, what's the big deal if you answered one of his questions and not the others?

-Please clarify, it sounds like you are assuming everyone asked for town colors.

--If a player requested

Yellow

&

Red

, but they got a town role instead, they could indistinguishably say no without revealing anything.
--SF whines a lot. Whining because he requested town colors and got town with a different color is well within his normal behavior.

@MoI-
Mostly agree with this entire post,

except that I doubt there was an evenly distributed color quota.

Spoiler: Source material would argue against

Blue Lanterns are a really small corps, with really just 1 notable member (Saint Walker) + 1 added member (Flash). Only 1 Indigo member has a name ("Indigo-1" the rest are nameless tribesmen who barely appear in the story), plus 1 added member (the Atom). Atrocitus is the only named Red Lantern who survives the first part of the Blackest Night series plus 2 added members who stop being red lanterns (Mera & Guy Gardner).

-Do you have multiple instances of SSBF claiming to hate SK?
--I'd add that SF has no problem with replacing out or abandoning games when he doesn't get his way. Not doing so could be a tell that his indignation from before was just an act.
--After reading Jack's post, this point is less compelling.

@Mod-

For the record, this was a lie. I did nto pick up my role PM until just before I posted in this thread.

@Andrius-Post too long, or maybe this reading/catching up after 20+ hours in the air is a bit too much.

To be clear, are you claiming that you submitted Indigo/Purple AND another color? You seem to think Indigo and Purple are the same thing. They are not. Indigo is one color. Purple (aka Violet) is a separate color.

Nvm, the lack of clarity is still there, but it's probably for the best that you don't clarify. It sounds like you genuinely didn't understand the difference.

@Tans-

Also have not seen where 4 members per color was ever even hinted at by mods.

However, rules clearly state

Red

,

Yellow

, and

Orange

are different factions.

@Guderian-Thanks, that's helpful to know. Link to the quote please? Also,

mod

confirmation that this is an actual rule would be good.

If true, disregard italics above.

[Kast]

Quick note, I'm pretty much caught up. I had a half finished post for the pages I didn't address in thread, but a lot of it isn't that relevant, so I'm just gonna run through my notes, update based on D2 info, and post the summary. Should be posted sometime tonight.

Also, I'm down with VOTE: SensFan

Quick note though, I checked with mod overnight whether the quote about 2VT and 2PR for each color faction is guaranteed, and he said that is NOT the case. That seems to have only been part of the original idea for the game.

Also, KK's post on flavor/setup was technically right but actually wrong. There are at least 4 names for each corps listed in wiki, but that doesn't address which chars were present for the Blackest Night series. More specifically, I was mistaken about

Indigo

; there are 3 "names" listed for

Indigo

not 2. There are 2 additional names listed on the wiki, one who is not even part of Blackest Night series (nor even an indigo lantern) and the other is the primary antagonist of the series who the

Indigo

's took with them to watch after he was defeated (they put a ring on him but he isn't one of them). He's flat out wrong about Larfleeze; his entire intro/first story arc is about wanting a

Blue

ring.

[Kast]

Damn...you guys post too much and I barely feel like moving after a very very nice dinner...

Spoiler: Notes From D1 Re-read

AlmasterGM Random questions at beginning (not nearly as relevant as he later acted). Seen him do that as town before, not sure about as scum. Active and appears to be scumhunting. Pro-town actions, Neutral read.
Andrius Possible PR fish. Claimed PR AND hinted/claimed color choices. Initially opposed to Fate's alliance playstyle, later tried to buddy and join the alliance. Neutral perhaps net slightly anti-town actions. Mild townish affiliation read since I doubt scum would out himself as a PR so early in D1.
Dekes Claimed nothing and doesn't want claims. Low activity but what he has is fairly solid and pro-town. Prob-not red based on Guderian case. Neutral affil read.
dramonic Pro-color claiming. Nonsensical attacks on MoI, Spyrex, NPIAU, others. Nonsensical posts are anti-town, but that's typical for dram. Neutral affil read.
Fate Random play. Some scumhunting mixed in. Lots of not carefully reading people and impulse voting. Surprise/displeasure with AGM's possible claim seemed genuine and +town. Very hard to read. Neutral affil.
Guderian Says he is against color claims but pushes false idea that there are exactly 4 members of each faction (supporting color claims) and gives pros/cons of color claim as being equal. On the whole, posts seemed reasonable. I wouldn't have been on the Guderian wagon yesterday. Obviously he is scum after seeing the flip. Based on his flip, I'm guessing he thought color claims would help (red scum at least) but didn't want to be seen as pushing them. Potential +red-scum to others pushing mass color claims.
Jack Jack's playing as inscrutably as ever. His Spyrex case is nonsense. His Starbuck meta case is reasonable but a bit weak since it's kinda old meta. While I don't get most of his thoughts, that's pretty normal for Jack and I'd say net neutral for town. Potential SK-Soft claimed wanting but not getting Orange. Neutral affil read.
KageLord Follows Dram, pro color claim. Seriously attacks the alliance (+scum looking for "easy" targets). Extremely light on contributions. Slightly scummy affil read.
Katsuki Mostly random, occasional nitpicking. Like Fate, there's some scumhunting mixed in and a lot of following Fate/Reck. Doesn't seem very confidant in her own reads; she's proposed to her alliance a few times but easily drops it when they ignore her. Like Fate, very hard to read. Neutral affil.
Kdub Attack on Spyrex seems below Kdub's normal standard (+scum looking for "easy" target) but could be just paranoia against color claims. Followed by OMGUS vs tans (yes, tans' posting does suck, no that doesn't necessarily mean scum). Strong anti-color claiming stance. Moderate play that's probably slightly pro-town. Neutral affil read.
Kublai Khan Extremely stubborn/dense with Spyrex over a stupid point that he's clearly capable of understanding and moving past. Speculation about Nekron or about losing a ring and surviving sounds like an attempt to use flavor to excuse ridiculous game assumptions (+scum). Potential fishing Fate for PR status (+scum). Anti-color claim, but pro even-distribution (null?). Apparently has background in the comics yet blatantly misdirects town regarding sizes of the various corps. Overall anti-town and somewhat scummy.
MagnaofIllusion Very solid play, as expected. Switch to Guderian is a +not red scum. Pro-town posting. Neutral-slightly pro-town affil read. Potential SK-Soft claimed wanting but not getting Orange.
nopointinactingup Ignored AGM's question. Buddied with MoI. Mostly contentless with a couple good thoughts tossed in. Lack of content and activity puts him net anti-town. Neutral affil read.
Plum Reasonable on the whole, as expected. As per norm, Plum is pretty good at cutting out the confusion and arriving at what players are actually saying, meanwhile checking for consistency. Pro-town overall, neutral affil. Potential SK-Soft claimed thinking Orange would be a very desirable role and indirectly implying a town/SK color choice.
SensFan Pointless whining, empty threats of replacing out, and a lot of empty posts. MoI's catch regarding SSBF is a +scum, though mitigated by Jack's catch. Refusing to scumhunt until after we do a mass color claim is suspicious like nothing else. Combined with Guderian's flip the color claim stance looks like a tell. Anti-town and scummy.
SpyreX Distracted in early game due to the nonsensical attacks over Orange second pick. Using this as a trap is typical of Spyrex. Aside from that, low contribution. Guderian vote seems like an empty throwaway. Neutral affil read. Potential SK-Claimed Orange 2nd pick, but I actually doubt he would have made the post if he was the SK.
Starbuck Lots of flavor info without much content in early game. This is null for Starbuck (if Starbuck likes the subject, he's going to give lots of flavor info regardless of affil). Catchup posts were helpful. Neutral affil read.
Stephoscope Almost no contributions. Guderian vote could be a potential bus. Anti-town play and neutral (slightly scummy) affil read.
tanstalas Random play until he started seriously pushing the crap against Spyrex despite showing intelligence to know better (+scum). Also pushed a BS reason against Kdub (+scum, looking for "easy" lynch). Argument with Katsuki is ridiculous and shows you either have poor reading comp or are intentionally pushing crap (latter seems more likely); most of it is either out of context quoting or taking obvious jokes as literal statements of fact (+scum). You are active and responding at least though. Neutral play, slightly scummy read.
The Stove Low activity but fairly reasonable. Neutral play and affil read.
Toogeloo Nothing too unreasonable. Takes fairly light stances on most things. I get a slight gut feeling that he doesn't want to ruffle feathers (+scum). Opposition to Guderian wagon is understandable, but may be a buddy tell. Neutral play and neutral (slightly) scummy affil read. Potential SK-Claimed Orange 1st pick
Vi Vi is playing fairly reasonably, though normal stubbornness on trivial points is still there (e.g. clearly answering AGM's first question but then claiming he didn't answer it). There's definite scumhunting going on, though the only other game I've played with Vi, he did scum hunt despite being scum. The Guderian vote looks legit, so -red scum. On the whole, pro-town play, but neutral (slightly pro-town) affil read.
xRECKONERx Extremely random play initially. At some point, he shifted gears and became much more serious (though still includes craziness). His serious play reads as scum (his own self admitted tell that I'd agree with). He was key in the Guderian lynch, but it wasn't his top lynch and I fully expect Reck-scum to bus his buddies. I'd guess if any member of his alliance is scum, it's probably Reck himself. Overall neutral play. Neutral-slightly scummy affil read.
xvart Attack on Spyrex is crap, even if xvart thinks he was arguing a different point from the other attacks (minor +scum). Attack on Reck seems overly nitpicky (+scum looking for "easy" target), but not really sure of xvart's playstyle (he seems to be pretty nitpicky in general). Other than that, there's some reasonable points and the rest is middle of road. Neutral play. Neutral (slightly scummy) affil read.

As for today, the three top candidates all look reasonable:
SF: Stance on color claiming, case from D1, Generally scummy posts
Kats: Starbuck's confirmation of Reck's ability is pretty damning.
NPIAU: Blatant fishing. Hiding behind Vi but not dying.

@SF-
Game relevant posts would be nice. Defense and/or claim would probably be relevant.

@Starbuck-
Please confirm this with mod: If Reck targets a non-scum to recruit but Reck gets killed on the same night, would the recruiting still happen?

I assume that's a yes

2 thoughts:
-Presumably

Red

scum team has a kill and does not have two Janitors. They obviously did not kill themselves, and Vi's death looks janitored. It is possible Reck was the

Red

team kill (this doesn't resolve Kats not joining your masonry...provided the answer to prior question is yes).
-Flavor might just be flavor, but if it's actually relevant info (like in RC's other games), then it sounds like Reck was killed by someone on his way to recruit Kats.

@Kats-
-Why did you investigate Andy?
-If flavor is game relevant, then it directly states that Vi was not an innocent person. While it's reasonable that scum might visit Andy (soft-claimed PR), it seems like scum would probably

visit and kill

.

@NPIAU-
-Does your hiding ability specifically state that you will die if your target dies? If it doesn't say anything, ask the mod.

@Plum-
Check with mods, the TWO VT and TWO PR for each color is NOT true. That was only an original concept but was abandoned between concept and the actual game.

@Mods-

Please confirm in thread that the rule about 2 PRs and 2 VTs per faction is not true.

@Fate-
Assuming you're claiming cop, check with mod how your power works with INV IMMUNE. Assuming you're just a standard cop, I would guess Yellow scum team and potentially SK has similar INV. IMMUNE as Guderian. I'm assuming town has multiple INV. abilities to deal with misinformation roles.

[Kast]

You guys post way too much too fast...I hope I didn't miss anything there.

@Andy-
Yes, you may ask me a question from whenever...assuming your earlier post was to me and still relevant.

[Kast]

@Fate-
-Not sure why you expect me to chastise you for an "early claim". I wasn't even sure if you were claiming, and if you were, I don't see any problems with cops claiming on a guilty result if needed to secure a lynch.
--To be clear, you don't actually have an innocent read on KK? Because I'm reading KK as probable red-scum, but if there's an innocent, I doubt red-scum has two INV. IMMUNE on their team.
-I am suspicious of the Tomar Re claim. Tomar Re is DEAD in the Blackest Night storyline. He gets reanimated as a Black Lantern and fights the good guys. Starbuck, please confirm.

@Starbuck-
-Sorry, mistaken pronouns.

@Toogloo-

I am fairly certain that any one who is roleblocked and takes an action would be informed that they were roleblocked.

Why would you think that? This usually ISN'T the case unless the action is provides the user feedback (e.g. investigations).

@MoI/Spyrex-
Cases against both nopoint and Katsuki have merit. Ultimately, Occam's Razor points at Reck's death and Kats non-recruitment as a single effect of Kats being scum. I'm inclined to vote Kats and let the game move on. You two have both soft claimed info that implicates NPIAU. If you're going to share it, assuming it is relevant, please do so.

[Kast]

Btw- with 2 red-scum dead and potentially Vi-SK dead, it may be good to finish off the remaining

Red

-scum and eliminate another NK preferentially over

Yellow

-scum. If Fate's analysis of Kats as

Red

-scum watcher holds true, then that's a minor plus for lynching Kats vs. generic scum.

[Kast]

@MoI-

That

sounds like you are making that up

to cover

Spyrex’s unrevealed role-information

to me

.

I parsed this wrong, thought you were saying

Spyrex revealed info to you personally

not that you were

breaking up your phrase

.

@Andy-
You enjoy unvoting and revoting the person you were already voting don't you? Did you intentionally fake hammer or was that intended as a real hammer?

@Katsuki Lynch-
I'll trust Spyrex knows what he's doing with not revealing yet. I'm fine with the Katsuki lynch now, but if people want to let her give final thoughts, then just be aware this puts her back to L-1
UNVOTE: SFVOTE: Katsuki

[Kast]

KK and SF haven't posted...but I doubt either is planning to...they're prolly both scum.

Spyrex is leaving further claims until a later time.

I assume from Kdub's last post that he doesn't really have more to say at this time(?).

Katsuki did say she'll be back later, but she's already claimed so not sure if there's anything left to be said.

I think we're set for today...though it feels kinda odd that you're asking permission to end the day. Also,

Unvote, Vote: Katsuki

Lynch for today. No other. We'll handle nopoint, SensFan, The Stove, Stethoscope, et.al. later.

Sounds like an intended hammer.

[Kast]

@Spy-
Fate was BSing with the cop claim. There's no innocent result on KK.

[Kast]

I'll catch up tonight. Just read the day started post so far.

[Kast]

Katsuki [11] - Starbuck, The Stove, tanstalas, Dekes, Fate, KageLord, xvart, Kdub, SpyreX, Kast
nopointinactingup [3] - Katsuki, Plum, MagnaofIllusion
SensFan [2] - AlmasterGM, nopointinactingup

Not voting [5] - Andrius, Jack, Kublai Khan, SensFan, Stephoscope

Was the end of day vote count correct? Toogloo is not listed, Andrius is listed as non-voting, and if it is correct it seems to imply I had a double vote. From end of day events, it would seem like Andy should be the 11th vote, and Toogloo should be still voting SensFan.

Spoiler: Claims (including Soft ones):

– SpyreX: ???,

Blue

Lantern, similar abilities as Andrius (similar enough to confirm)

N1:

[Targeted] NPIAU (result = failed)

N2:

Gave Andrius 1-Shot Mandatory Vig

Spyrex ability confirms him as Blue/Town to Andrius.

– Kublai Khan: ???

N1:

May have been gunsmithed by Fate

If he was gunsmithed, then he is SK/Not Mafia/Not Cop/...Not Gun Owner

– nopointinactingup: John Stewart,

Green

Lantern, Hider

N1:

Hid behind Vi. [Targeted] by Spyrex (Result = Failed).

N2:

Hid behind ???. [Targeted] by Andy (Result = Failed).

NPIAU living when Vi died indicates he is lying. NPIAU's reaction to Spyrex initially indicated NPIAU was scum, but Spyrex has since changed his mind. Katsuki's watch of Andy indicates Vi did not bus Andy AND Vi. NPIAU's reaction to Andy indicates he is lying.

– Kdub: ??? with ability similar to Spyrex.

N1:

[Targeted] xvart.

N2:

???

xvart's reaction to Kdub indicates xvart is lying.

– The Stove: ???

Starbuck's investigation indicates The Stove is either Town OR Investigation Immune.

– xvart: Sister Sercy,

Blue

Lantern,

Red

Immune

N1:

Did not get anything from Kdub.

N2:

Did not get anything from Andy.

Reaction to Kdub indicates xvart is lying.

– Andrius: ???,

Blue

Lantern, similar abilities as Spyrex (similar enough to confirm)

N1:

[Targeted] ???

N2:

Received 1 shot vig. Killed Stepho. [Targeted] NPIAU (result = failed).

Confirmed to Spyrex by ability.

– SensFan: ???

If he was gunsmithed, then he is Not SK/Mafia/Cop/...Gun Owner

Spoiler: Confirmed players & Actions:

– Guderian - Atrocitus, Investigation-Immune Janitor of the Red Lantern Corps - Lynched on Day 1.

No actions; lynched D1.

– dramonic - Bleez, Goon of the Red Lantern Corps - Killed on Night 1.

???

– xRECKONERx - Star Sapphire, Mason Recruiter of the Violet Lantern Corps - Killed on Night 1.

Recruited Katsuki (result = death)

– Vi - Kilowog, Busdriver in the Green Lantern Corps - Killed on Night 1.

Bussed Andrius AND ??? (according to Katsuki)

– Katsuki - Bedovian, Watcher of the Sinestro Corps - Lynched on Day 2.

Recruited by Reck. Watched Andrius (result = Vi).

If Katsuki was telling the truth about the watching, then one of the following happened:
-Vi bussed Andy AND Vi. Katsuki's watch got transferred to Vi. Katsuki saw Vi visit Vi (

this seems to violate intuitive action resolution rules

)
-Vi bussed Andy AND Vi. Katsuki's watch happens before Vi's bus. Katsuki saw Vi bus Andy. Katsuki did not see NPIAU hide behind Andy which indicates NPIAU is lying.
-Vi bussed Andy AND NOT-Vi. Katsuki's watch happens before Vi's bus. Katsuki saw Vi bus Andy.

If Katsuki was telling the truth, then NPIAU is lying.

– Plum - William Hand, Operative in the Indigo Tribe - Killed on Night 2.

???

– Starbuck - Wonder Woman, Cop Mason in the Star Sapphire Corps - Killed on Night 2.

N1:

Investigated TheStove (result = innocent)

TheStove is either town or Investigation Immune

– Stephoscope - Arisia, Operative in the Green Lantern Corps - Killed on Night 2.

???

– Fate - Tomar-Re, Gunsmith in the Green Lantern Corps - Killed on Night 2.

N1:

Investigated SensFan (result = Has Gun) OR Investigated KK (result = No Gun)

SensFan is a gun owner (Mafia/Cop/...Gun Owner) OR KK is a non-gun owner (SK/Not Mafia/Not Cop/...Not Gun Owner)

Qs:
@NPIAU:
-Are there any abilities that happen prior to your hiding?
-Do abilities that target you fail or get transferred to the person you are hiding behind?

@KK-
-First, sounds like you have a reading problem. Whining about it to others is unnecessary.
-Second, your point is a load of crap-logic. If mods were being true to flavor of Blackest Night, then William Hand and Tomar Re should both on the Black Lantern team and thus should not be present or townies. Since they are both town roles in this game, then we know that mods are taking liberties with flavor

and should not put too much stock in flavor having game relevance

.
You are also using your crap-logic as an attempt to straw man the point:

you intentionally used wrong/misleading flavor to mislead the town

.
-I'm amused how you've adopted my mod-confirmed position and preach it back as if you are correcting me on something (and screw up chronology to boot). Check the post record for why danakillsu's even confirmed that in thread.

@Spy/Andy Coalition-
-With Spy/Andy/Kdub all claiming similarly, I doubt this is a scum gambit, and am inclined to trust that group as prob-town.
-I'd like confirmation that my understanding of what's been claimed so far is correct along with the implications of those claims (listed above).
--To summarize though, ultimate conclusions are:

Xvart is scum

NPIAU is untargetable

--My additional thoughts/conclusions:

NPIAU is prob-scum

SF is prob-scum

KK was probably not investigated

Given Fate denied investigating KK twice to different people, but did not deny investigating SF; I'm betting that was a breadcrumb for her actual investigation target (also makes sense since she suspected SF but didn't suspect KK). Being a gunsmith instead of a cop also explains why she was willing to give up on the result (gun doesn't equal scum).

I'm up for the xvart lynch.
VOTE: xvart

SensFan and/or NPAIU should also be looked into (note that NPAIU is likely vig immune).

[Kast]

Not sure why I got a prod when I told mod I wouldn't be around for day start if it started over the weekend...

Anyway, started skimmign through. Will post a catch up with more complete thoughts later.

Immediate things of note from what I've skimmed:
Scums:
-I strongly believe Andy, so if his role indicates tans is scum, then I'll fully support that.
-SF flip practically confirms that Fate's investigation was NOT on KK but her actual claimed guilty on SF. That said, MoI/tans/NPIAU as scum are all very plausible.
-MoI does look like a strong candidate for Yellow scum. He's tried to derail/divert both previous yellow-scum lynches, and both flipped Yellow-PR.
Mass Claim/Colors:
-I'll participate in a mass claim if that's the majority preference, but I don't see that it helps us that much.
-People seem to be assuming the 4 per color thing is true. Mod's already publicly posted this is not true.
Black Lanterns:

Flavor note: take with a grain of salt since flips reveal some bastardized flavor

, Black lanterns can only exist while William Hand is dead. The way to solve the Blackest Night/end the series was by bringing William Hand back to life (and turning him into an

Indigo

Lantern prisoner). It is possible that William Hand's death triggered the Black Lantern awakenings. If any player has a reviving mechanic, William Hand would be the flavor solution to the Black Lantern problem.

[Kast]

@Zito-
Agree with that point. The only mod confirmed scum so far who was "against" color claims was Guderian, and he was talking out both sides of his mouth; saying he's against it, but then making arguments in favor of it.

However, as I understand it, the argument for mass claiming is more than just color claims; it sounds like Andy is trying to reconstruct all night actions and potentially catch liars through conflicting claims/abilities/etc. It has potential to catch scum, it has potential to help scum target better. At this point, I doubt it would automatically catch anything since too many players are already dead and can't share their info. It may lock players and let us find more scum if we still have investigative roles though.

@Andy-
To be clear, I have no idea whether such a mechanic exists in

this

game. If there is a reviver (presumably one-shot), then mass claim puts a target for Black Lanterns, but may actually be helpful in terms of other scum may leave that player alone.

[Kast]

@Andy-
-Assuming Katsuki was telling the truth about her watching; it seems unlikely Vi targeted Vi. Action resolution that reveals the bus driver after being effected by the bus driver is paradoxical. Plus, if Katsuki's actual watch was on Vi, then Katsuki should have seen Vi's killer and would have an easy "out" by revealing that person (except if Vi was the Yellow-scum kill...in which case Kats would have an option to bus for survival or just hide it).
-Fate said she seriously investigated SF and said she was just messing around about investigating KK. Given that her claimed guilty has now been confirmed it seems far more likely that the gunsmith result was on SF (what she actually said). That plus it seems unlikely Fate would investigate one of her town reads rather than one of her scum reads.

@Dekes & Others mentioning number of Green Claims-
Did you guys miss the memo that there is no reason whatsoever to think roles are evenly distributed among colors? I'd guess there's at least one scum trying to push the "4 of each color" thing, probably due to having a good safe claim. Tans & NPIAU are both prob scum. But that's based on play and conflicting game mechanic claims; nothing to do with the green claim...

[Kast]

@Zito-

@Plum-
Check with mods, the TWO VT and TWO PR for each color is NOT true. That was only an original concept but was abandoned between concept and the actual game.

@Mods-

Please confirm in thread that the rule about 2 PRs and 2 VTs per faction is not true.

I just realized/remembered that somewhere earlier in this process, I may have stated that there was exactly 1 PR per faction or exactly 4 people per faction besides the SK. This is not a real guarantee for this game. Only what I have stated in the OP is given to you as factual about this setup.

Game-Specific Rules

1. You know that Violet, Green, Blue, and Indigo are all part of the good faction. You know that Red, Orange, and Yellow are all different evil factions. You also know that there is only one Orange Lantern.
   
2. You know that there is at least one VT in this game.

The 4 per faction was something Guderian and KK suggested/pushed initially. If Tans/MoI are remaining

Yellow

-Scum, and NPIAU is

Orange

-SK, I think there's an at least reasonable chance that KK is last

Red

-scum.

@Color-claim-
Ok, one point that I've been unsure about sharing, my role suggests we may have a color cop of some sort (also possible it's a red herring or I'm over analysing my role).

I'm just going to partial claim this in case it helps; if we end up doing the mass full-claim I'll reveal more at that time:
-I started the game as one color with the one time ability to change to another color (permanently). From this, I'm guessing color matters as a game mechanic (initial guess is some kind of color cop). If we do have a color cop, they would find scum even without a mass color-claim.

From flavor, I could see other possible color changes...but some of those possibilities involve scum colors. If we're doing the mass color-claim, I can claim my starting color and the color I can switch to. I'd prefer holding off on my current color until a mass full claim, though that's a weak preference (it probably won't matter, but not immediate claiming may have benefits).

@Andy-
If NPIAU is SK and Tans is one of 2 remaining

Yellow

-scum, then SK is probably better to get rid of since it removes a kill. A 2 member scum voting block isn't an issue at this moment (it becomes more of an issue if we don't stop the night kills).

[Kast]

My color actually immediately gives away my character name and the color I become to both MoI and KK (both probable scum), so I might as well share those both:

Ganthet,

co-leader of

Blue Lantern Corps

. I can turn myself into a deputy member of the

Green Lantern Corps

.

I picked Orange and Blue, but also said if I don't get either I'd like Green third most and the rest I don't really care (so I'm pretty happy with what I got). I'd actually love to improve my SK record which sucks on this site; that'll have to wait for another game.

My choice to pop-corn is obviously KK, but if we're limiting this due to the nigh confirmed Towns unreasonably trusting him, KageLord can go next.

@KK-
Projecting?

@Black Lanterns-
From flavor and from the mod announcement, it's possible that currently dead townies can be recruited by the Black Lanterns. Agree that it seems unlikely that scum could be recruited (dead or alive). For that to happen, they would need to retain their original scum win con or other mechanic to prevent divulging names of teammates.

[Kast]

@AGar-
As MoI mentioned (and mod admitted the error), Tomar Re should be dead OR should be a Black Lantern. William Hand should also have started out dead, as a Black Lantern, from the beginning of the Blackest Night story arc (his transformation into a member of the Indigo Tribe is more of a cameo in the epilogue and only really developed in stories post-Blackest Night).

@Tans-
I'm pretty sure your buddy doesn't appreciate that you're defending/tying yourself to him. Even more so since he's already under scrutiny.

@MoI-
-Hal went Green>Red>Blue>Green in the arc you're referencing; and it wasn't exactly something he controlled. It was also pre-Blackest Night. Within the Blackest Night story line, there's really only one person who goes Blue to Green.

-If you ignore my prior posts, then sure you might have grounds to claim I'm OMGUSing you. If you read my prior posts, then your claim doesn't have any grounds.
--You've been the primary pusher of both counter wagons for the flipped Yellow-Scum.
--Both caught Yellow-Scum have turned out to be PRs, yet you act as if there's no possible motivation for Yellow-scum to try and save his buddies.
--Both of these thoughts have been stated since my first post of D4; well before you claimed to suspect me as SK.
I'm curious to see how your "suspicion" adjusts after NPIAU flips Orange.

-In Brave and Beautiful, I acted based on info provided by my role as well as info claimed by others. There was one specific role interaction that led me to doubt you, and it turned out to be a red herring that only happened in the event of 3+ PRs interacting with each other in a very specific way (Samus normally copies death flavor; Cortana's death flavor is always generic 'destroyed'). In this game, the info available to me, primarily from plausible claims by others, has pointed pretty clearly and obviously at scum and there's been neither opportunity nor necessity to get into heated debates on why we should follow the info.

Thoughts on the Claims thus far:
@MoI-

In other news, I've counted thus far at least 4 people who put Orange in one of the two colors based on the way things have been phrased and such. Of those 4, SpyreX is the only one who stated he put it second. Many have not yet commented on their color choice selection in such an obvious way though, so I am betting there were more.

I'm apparently braindead. Who else besides Sens has done it? I'd LOVE to see it in context if you'd be so kind because that furthers what I've been saying with this selective garbage, depending.

Magna strongly eluded to it:

1. Second choice. Hardly a surprise given how popular my first choice was.

I will also admit to having put Orange first when I quoted Magna, I said as such:

1. Second choice. Hardly a surprise given how popular my first choice was.

Just noticed this. You are a man after my own heart MoI.

This isn't a hard point, but it did seem like your initial post was claiming Orange as first pick. It seems uncharacteristic of you to not correct that if it was a misunderstanding.
@KageLord-

Green and yellow

The reason I am telling you this is because I know that SensFan is on the red team because he claimed that SSBF picked yellow as the number one pick. There were/are two people on my team (myself included) that did not pick yellow as a color at all, so the fact that he picked yellow as his first pick and he didn't get it does not compute with the fact that I (and another) did not pick yellow at all.

These don't really match. Seems unlikely that xvart would lie about color picks while claiming scum.

[Kast]

@MoI-
Your refusal to admit any possible motivation for scum to try protecting their buddies is what's stupid. The obvious motive for trying to save your buddies is because it directly contributes to your chances of winning by having your team survive (more votes, more powers, more "hitpoints", etc.). Other potential motives could include being GF trying to draw a cop, being a less valuable PR/Vanilla who would be less harmful for your team to lose, setting up for the "defending scum-buddies is too scummy to be scum" crap-logic defense that you're using now, or trying to distract & gain townpoints by focusing on a competing scum-lynch (NPIAU) (not an exhaustive list).

Your motive obviously was not trying to reveal yourself as scum. Claiming that people are pushing that ridiculous argument just evades the actual point. Your defense further assumes that both Yellow lynches were forgone conclusions at the time you tried to divert them. However, MoI-scum trying to save his buddies would obviously think there was a chance to save his buddies and thus no suspicion would come from that. MoI-scum also wouldn't know that xvart was about to claim scum in thread, and despite your claim to the contrary, you didn't actually argue against xvart's lynch after he claimed.

As far as Tans defending his buddy; Tans is already caught and your lynch is pretty likely after Tans flips (that would make this the third and only successful time you've pushed for NPIAU instead of a caught Yellow-scum). He doesn't exactly have much to lose if he hurts you; but if he can get his buddy *confirmed* as town, then that's a no-brainer move.

Can you explain what I would gain by correcting Toog? I’d like to understand what scum-hunting motivation I would have to correct him and say “No, I didn’t choose Orange as my first color” at that juncture without directly giving up my color choices prematurely.

The same motivation that makes you correct when people publicly voice thoughts that you softclaimed anything else.
The clause about prematurely giving up your color choices doesn't seem at all relevant to this point. From context, your "first choice" was something you thought would be obvious to others; your implication that correcting Toog would require some strange and/or risky thought process is inconsistent with "prematurely" softclaiming your first choice.

@Andy-
Turning into a Green Lantern was a once per game effect triggered at any time by PMing Dana or RC. I sent in the PM on D3 after posting my catchup. I didn't actually get the confirmation until N3. I actually haven't asked for clarification on whether I counted as changing when I sent the PM or when I got the confirmation. I'll check, but from the wording, I'm guessing it was during D3 when I sent the PM.

[Kast]

@Andy-
I have a role-related reason for changing. If you need me to claim further, I can.

Your request is doable.

Also, RC confirmed that my change happened during D3 as soon as I sent in the PM.

[Kast]

@Dekes/Andy-
Lol@Dekes. Andy is on the right track.

@MoI-

Just curious as to why the Red Mafia (aks AGM) isn’t included on this list?

Are you admitting AGM isn't part of your Yellow Mafia?

I don’t see the any possible motivation to defend Yellow Scum-buddies because I am not Yellow scum. You don't know that of course but I can't entertain a notion I know is incorrect. This whole block is a cornucopia of speculation. Your POV here automatically dismisses the possibility that I am Town trying to hunt my top scum suspect. Your are simply filtering events through your personal bias.

We both know you are fully capable of evaluating the possibility of MoI-scum from a non-MoI townsperson's PoV. From that PoV, there are obvious scum motivations for your behavior. Agreed that this is not a 100% guarantee that you are scum; it is a potential scum tell. There is a possibility that you are town stubbornly pushing NPIAU-scum; despite your objection, nobody has claimed this is not a possibility.

As for the bold sections:
-If you were able to successfully push a counter-wagon, then you wouldn't have any suspicion on you. Your refusal to acknowledge this point is just silly.
-You're correct scum could potentially have Day Talk; that's arguing an irrelevant technicality to evade the point. This point is a response to your claim that only stupid scum would defend a buddy who is claiming scum. Even with a scum day talk and/or a pre-planned strategy for xvart to claim scum, you can't actually believe xvart was determined to claim scum

even if people listened to your counter-wagon

. Xvart had some pressure, you pushed hard for NPIAU instead of xvart. At the time you pushed, you obviously thought there was a chance of a NPIAU lynch.

If anything it would be much more likely Tans would work hard to incriminate someone not on his team, especially one who others have already labelled likely Yellow.

Agreed that this would be more ideal play for caught Yellow-scum. However, it's also plausible that caught Yellow-scum would latch on to a potential chance to *clear* their buddy, particularly if that buddy was already almost caught.

So what is this nebulous motivation you say? What scum-hunting would come out of correcting him? Give me something actually specific.

You tell me. You're the one who is exhibiting the behavior. Also, you're begging the question by assuming your motivation necessarily results in some kind of scum-hunting.

@Tans-
Your post sounds a lot like xvart's scum claim. If you're going to claim Yellow Scum, might as well do so now and save trouble.

@Andy-
-I am not (and was not) an Operative. I have (and had) active abilities.

[Kast]

You act as if there would be one.

This is false. I pointed out that it is uncharacteristic of you to not correct someone when they misread a soft-claim. You're the one claiming there MUST BE some kind of scum-hunting relevance to all of your actions. If you have such a motivation, great, share it. As far as game relevance; there's pretty clear relevance when you imply something in a D1 soft claim, but claim something completely different on D4 under pressure.

-There is a point to evaluating it. You state that there is no motivation for MoI-scum to take those actions. That statement requires evaluating the situation from both possibilities (MoI-scum and MoI-town). You're blowing a lot of steam but there's no logic behind it.

-Or you slipped and admitted he's not your scum-buddy. Besides, AGM was against the Guderian lynch and never commented on Dramonic. How does either of those fit with bussing a buddy under duress?

-If you have two caught scum, then it's DEFINITELY plausible that they'll try to save one of them. If they can potentially do that by promoting a *clear* suggested by a townie, then it's obvious they'll take that option.

[Kast]

@Second bullet- actually doesn't require evaluating from MoI-town perspective. But it requires evaluating from MoI-scum.
@Third bullet- AGM could have been bussing SF, but so could a lot of other people. But if that was a slip and you have some private info that incriminates AGM, thanks!

[Kast]

I am a JoAT. I started with three 1-shot Night Abilities plus my changing ability:
-1x RB (used N1 on SF)
-1x Track (used N2 on xvart; no results)
-1x Doc

My results PM from N2 (which I didn't see until D3 started) included flavor that something ominous was going to happen or had just happened. It was vague, but sort of hinted that it would be a good idea to change colors (flavor was about reinforcements). At the time, I guessed it was referring to so many Green Lanterns dying on N2.

After turning into a Green Lantern, I now have 3 different abilities (I lose the previous abilities regardless of whether I used them). I did not know what abilities I was going to get until after changing:
-Redirect
-Black/non-Black Cop
-Protect against Black Recruitment (permanently)

N3 I used the protection against Black Recruitment, but I think it's better not to name my target.

The Black/non-Black cop is actually the main reason I suspected a Color Cop as a complement to my ability.

Dead/Confirmed

–

Guderian -

Atrocitus

- INV IMMUNE, JANITOR
–

dramonic -

Bleez

- GOON
-

SensFan -

Dex-Starr

- BOMB
–

Katsuki -

Bedovian

- WATCHER
–

xvart -

Arkillo

- NINJA
–

Vi -

Kilowog

- BUS DRIVER
–

Stephoscope -

Arisia

- VT
–

Fate -

Tomar-Re

- GUNSMITH
-

SpyreX -

Munk

- ROLE COPY
–

Plum -

William Hand

- VT
–

xRECKONERx -

Star Sapphire

- MASON RECRUITER
–

Starbuck -

Wonder Woman

- MASON COP
-

Jack -

Queen Aga-po

- VT
-

Toogeloo -

Fata

lity

- VT

Probably no Black Recruiter specifically (or actually Plum may be directing from beyond the grave...

but I doubt anyone will believe that

).

Assuming equal starting color groups w/Fatality as Violet (4/1/4/4/4/4/4):

–

AlmasterGM -

Red Lantern

–

nopointinactingup -

Larfleeze

–

MagnaofIllusion -

Yellow Lantern (Sinestro?)

–

tanstalas -

Yellow Lantern

–

KageLord -

Hal Jordan

–

Kast -

Ganthet

/

Deputy Green Lantern

–

Kdub -

Blue Lantern

–

The Stove -

Blue Lantern

–

Andrius -

Blue Lantern

–

Kublai Khan -

Indigo Lantern

–

Dekes -

Indigo Lantern

Assuming Corps size follows flavor (4/1/4/4.5/3.5/3/5):

–

Kublai Khan -

Red Lantern

–

nopointinactingup -

Larfleeze

–

MagnaofIllusion -

Yellow Lantern (Sinestro?)

–

tanstalas -

Yellow Lantern

–

KageLord -

Hal Jordan

–

Kast -

Ganthet

/

Deputy Lantern

–

Kdub -

Blue Lantern

–

The Stove -

Blue Lantern

–

Andrius -

Blue Lantern

–

Dekes -

Indigo Lantern

–

AlmasterGM -

Violet Lantern

The 4 per faction is possible, but the 2VT per color isn't really possible. In Blue there's Andy & KDub nigh confirmed; then Kast & MoI both claimed PR. The 1+ VT per color probably holds though.

[Kast]

That was claim, then speculation.

[Kast]

@KDub-
D1/N1 I had a pretty strong scum read on SF. Guderian's flip on D1 only increased that. Also, it sounds like you are evaluating RBs from a scum perspective rather than a town RB (limited scum RB is more inclined to wait for claims). If I could stop a N1 scum-kill that would be ideal.

N2 I considered doc, but with a large number of plausibly claimed town PRs, several of whom seemed capable of some kind of investigation, I decided to keep that for a later night when there was a more critical/obvious protection target. Your end of day fingering of xvart was plausible, but not definite/damning. I was hoping that if xvart was SK or scum PR (or scum NK) I could verify both xvart as scum and confirm you as at least having some kind of investigative ability.

[Kast]

Also, note I hid a crumb in the first spoiler of my first actual game post; essentially describing my role.

[Kast]

As for possibly useful info:
In addition to the regular lantern corpsmen, there are several heros and villians who get power rings and become lanterns. There are also several people who are associated with multiple colors during the series.

This was a veiled reference to my color changing and being associated with both Blue and Green. On first reading my role, my private speculation was that using my ability might trigger changes in other players (who presumably would start as non-lanterns and become lanterns). Starbuck's flip killed that possibility (also it's another instance of mod diverging from the Source chronology).

[Kast]

@KDub-
-If you have a strong scum suspect, it's ALMOST ALWAYS better to roleblock and stop them from acting than to just track. Denying scum kills is HUGE and denying scum PRs is similarly powerful; the earlier in game you can do this, the better.
-Andy was really the only plausible protection target on N1, and he was neither confirmed nor high priority for a 1-shot. N2, Fate was a potentially claimed PR, Andy was a claimed PR, Starbuck was a claimed PR, KDub was a claimed PR, Stove was a cleared town. It's easy to say "docs should have obviously protected Fate or Starbuck" now, but that isn't considering the situation at that time and isn't realizing that a single shot doc can only pick a single target.
-As far as saving the protection; I got a PM that strongly suggested/advised/hinted that I should change colors. I followed the advice.

My character isn't in the Blackest Night series.

Don't buy this at all. That's like claiming you're Yoshi or something in a Super Mario Bros 3 Theme Game. KK's gotta be either the last Red or, if there is a Black cult recruiter, then the Black Recruiter. If the latter, it's understandable that he's unhappy with a role specifically intended to oppose him. Scar speculation may be projection.

@Dekes-
What holes are you claiming? If you don't recall, D3 was extremely short. I didn't get back til Monday afternoon. Read everything and submitted my change on Monday night. Day ended on Tuesday morning and RC wasn't even around until partway through the night. To be clear, are you claiming it's a hole that the mods (read=dana) took ~14-15 real time hours including an end of the day AND real life night to answer a PM that probably doesn't even have time significance?

@Andy/Kdub-
If needed, I can demonstrate my redirect tonight. With Stove claiming VT, that leaves Andy's "Blue Brother" power as one of you two (or Spyrex copying one of you two). I can prove my redirect works by sending that ability back to Kdub or Andy (unless you're assuming I'm a recruiter who can recruit AND redirect and who knows what else).

[Kast]

@Dekes-
You're also mixing things up. I partial claimed first; I got under suspicion after partial claiming as a result of the claim. It's important to look at what actually happened, instead of letting confirmation bias make you see what you wish had happened.

[Kast]

@Kdub-
Actually, let's walk you through the thought exercise:
-You can doc, RB, or track.
-There's a single claimed PR who tried to draw as much attention to himself as possible. He could be town or scum.
-There's a very probable (and arrogant) scum player.
(1) Options are to use powers on one of the targets of interest or use powers randomly.

Realistically, one of the targets of interest should be picked.

Options remaining:
-Doc the random unnecessarily claimed PR.
-RB/Track the probable scum
(2) Protection is out.

There's very low incentive to doc a random player; especially not one who tried drawing attention to himself (suggesting trap or drawing full doc or drawing watch).

Options remaining:
-RB scum
-Track scum
(3) RB is clearly a better option than tracking.

-If the scum does nothing, then either option is the same.
-If the scum performs a non-kill PR:
--Tracking gives potentially misleading info (that the player is not the scum killer), and does nothing to prevent whatever ability is being used
--RBing stops the action which clearly hurts scum team.
-If the scum performs a night-kill:
--Tracking IDs the player as a killer (value depends on how strong/weak the suspect is).
--RB stops a kill which clearly hurts scum team. Potentially reveals player as scum depending how many kills and flips on D2.

[Kast]

@Dekes-
-I'd much rather not have Black Lanterns trying to kill/lynch/Recruit/RB/do-anything-to me. Claiming from the get go kinda screws that up.

How stupid do you think we are? Honestly.

You are proving yourself to be very much
If KDub uses his power on unannounced target A, I redirect to Andy, then unless I recruited both KDub, Andy, AND target A, there's outside confirmation from two other people. Same holds with Andy and KDub switched.

No, stupid. You already made reference to my character being listed on the Indigo Lantern wikipedia page despite the fact that the character wasn't in the series.

And if you looked at a Generic Wiki about members of the mushroom kingdom, you'd see Yoshi there even though he doesn't appear until Super Mario World. Shane Thompson doesn't make an appearance until well after the Blackest Night is finished and done with.

Neat. Kast is now claiming that the Black Lantern cult is a figment of our imagination, despite the fact that his "role" specifically lists an immunity to their recruitment.

This is just playing stupid. There may be a Black Recruiter, or it may be a mechanic controlled by Plum, or some non-player controlled mechanic.
-Redirection and bus driving are completely different abilities.

@MoI-
I raised the point of reviving William Hand as the flavor solution from comics, but I don't think it's particularly likely that there is a reviver. I think the primary mechanic for dealing with it is probably a combination of my protection ability and probably scum immunity limiting black growth.

And I don’t see a Mod-directed Black Lantern mechanic as anything other than Bastard Modding which was not indicated in any way during sign-ups or the start of the game. If it is the case mark me as officially pissed at the Mods.

I don't see it as any worse than including a secret cult recruitment into a semi-open game.

@Kast – I don’t recall Ganthet having any special powers to buffer people against the influence of Black Lantern rings in the source material. Is this correct in your flavor knowledge?

That is correct.

Why wouldn’t you buy it when we already have evidence that one character (Tomar Re) alive and kicking in the game who was dead two decades before Blackest Night. At this stage I think you are tying your thought processes to closely to what ‘must be’ based on the flavour (again). Looking to fill out the Indigo Corps and having to look outside the strict Blackest Night comics to other Green Lantern material isn't unreasonable.

Dana has come out and publicly admitted Tomar Re was a mistake. Shane Thompson isn't an indigo lantern. He was the host for the Indigo entity. Ray Palmer and Indigo-1 are the two most high profile Indigo Lanterns; KK's prolly BSing Shane Thompson to avoid a counterclaim from Dekes.

[Kast]

@MoI-

1. A mod directed mechanic that ostensibly penalizes the Town

(by segregating the Town into two faction which cannot win together) but does not affect Scum and that

neither Town

nor Scum has any significant way to deal with.

Bold is common to both possibilities. Italicized is not true. Town has a PR who can prevent townies from being recruited.

2.

A cult in a game that was not expressly indicated at game’s start

but

is player driven and thus can be dealt with in any number of ways (lynching, Cops / Trackers / other Information roles, kills)

.

Underlined is equally bastard modding for both cases. Italicized portion deals equally with Black Recruits in either situation. Black Recruiter as a player can potentially be dealt with by PRs, Black recruitment as a result William Hand's death can similarly be dealt with by PRs and further dealt with by straight up careful play.

They aren't identical cases, but they're both bastard modding in the sense that we're playing a semi-open game and the Black Lanterns go contradict the open aspects.

@Dekes-

And what makes you sure, this won't happen while you're trying to prove yourself by redirecting tonight?

Non-sequitor. If the Black Lanterns control any means to mess with me (e.g. Kill/Recruit/RB/etc.), I'm sure they'll try it. There's nothing I can do about that, and it's irrelevant to the point in discussion.

This would just mean outguessing Andy here. Do you think Andy referred to himself when he was talking about the "Blue Brother" action or not? You'd only need to hit the Blue Brother for your plan to work. And even if not, this could just be you sacrificing yourself because you got caught and you're just trying to gain another night for another recruitment.

So, you realized that your objection was flawed but you pushed it anyway. Confirmation bias much?
-To be clear, by "outguessing Andy" you mean I've planned ahead for being caught and already recruited Blue Brother?
-I think Andy was

probably

referring to KDub as Blue Brother with the next most likely that Spyrex copied Andy's power and used it on Andy (and prior to Stove's claim, he was another candidate for Blue Brother).
-Agreed that if I were a Black Recruiter, I could be flat out lying to get another night. If I had a night action that flat out confirmed me as non-Black to every living player, it would be indistinguishable from lying to get another night. If you're already determined to believe I'm lying and will just push that regardless of any evidence to the contrary, then there's no point to furthering that discussion.
--Also, unless you think I've already recruited BOTH Andy and Kdub, then they've both claimed PRs with demonstrable abilities for their targets. I can demonstrate redirection of either one (they can choose) to a target of their choice with a secret initial target as insurance/verification. If you honestly think I've recruited BOTH Andy and Kdub, then I can see where you're coming from, otherwise, it sounds like you're just raising the bar every time I top it.

Please clarify though:
-You think I'm a Black Recruiter who has been recruiting since N1?
--This would mean I control 3 votes with scum controlling another 4 and only 4 townies left.
--This also means that if Toog didn't get night-killed, I would control 4/11 votes today and a majority of votes from D5 forwards; meanwhile town wouldn't even have a hint that Black Lanterns exist.
---Additionally all of my recruits have perfect safe claims if any of them get in trouble (which if there's any communication between the Black Lanterns, means each one has access to all of those safe claims).
-If this is what you think, then who do you think I have/would have recruited?

Who do you think it could be and why?

KK's gotta be either the last Red or, if there is a Black cult recruiter, then the Black Recruiter.

As far as how likely that there is a player Black Recruiter; I don't think it is at all plausible that there was recruiting prior to William Hand's death. William Hand enabling Black Lanterns is a CORE aspect of the Blackest Night Series. Given that, it seems unlikely that there would be a dedicated Black Recruiter who just had to wait around until Plum died (a Black Lantern searching to kill Plum in order to recruit is another possibility).

@KK fake claiming-
(c) I'm guessing he got a Green fake-claim (potentially Violet or Blue, but I'm doubting Indigo). Since he claimed late/last (Kdub had essentially claimed Blue), Indigo was the only group with less than 4 members.

[Kast]

@Andy-

You're assuming that I'm not the Blue Brother and he's the lesser of us two.

Please read carefully. I explicitly stated I think Blue Brother is either Andy OR Kdub. You are Andy. I have no clue what you mean by lesser of the two. I'm offering a means to prove that I am a PR since you think demonstrable PR-ness is sufficient proof of being a non-Black Recruiter.

-My redirection should happen before everything except for RB targeting me.

-My RB, Track, and Doc were all standard abilities. My redirect itself works unconditionally, but if I redirect an ability that has conditions, and the conditions are not met as a result of the redirection, then the ability will fail. From Kdub and your soft claiming, I'm guessing you both have abilities that power up others and that might be dependent on color and/or PR/Operative status. If I redirected an ability that only works on Operatives to a non-Operative, then it would not work (ie. the non-Operative would not gain a power or whatever the ability does). However, I if the ability does not have a specific condition, but is just has targeting limitations, my redirect can allow a player to target someone they normally couldn't (specifically, this refers to self-targeting; e.g. I could redirect a standard doc to himself). My Black/non-Black Cop ability works unconditionally. My Protection against Black Recruitment only works on people who are not Black (using it on someone who is already Black does not "cure" them and simply has no effect).

I lol'd.

I hope that was at KK's literacy failure.

@Redirecting-
If you want to test it, let me know.

[Kast]

@Shane Thompson Claim-
Btw, for you guys with no background, Shane Thompson as a character did not exist until the NOV 2010 issue of Green Lantern Comics which wasn't released until Nov 17th.

[Kast]

@Andy-
I'm pretty sure that my redirection happens before almost anything else (I grilled Dana and RC about how my abilities work and how they would interact with hypothetical roles when I got the PM...dana got sick of my questions and they didn't want to answer most of them, but I gather my redirection should be first).

I'm not sure Redirecting would even work, given that one of us (at least) is bound to eat a NK tonight. :/

If Black controls an NK, I am definitely their top kill choice. That clears me, but at that point, clearing me becomes a non-issue. My guess is that scum have a better grasp of the full game setup by virtue of being scum and knowing what kills/unclaimed PRs were theirs. They probably realize I'm legit (also, the potentially missing Red kill from N1 might be due to my RB of SF...in which case Red KNOWS I'm telling the truth). From that, I agree with Dekes' earlier point that claiming likely reduces my chances of colored-scum killing me.
You getting NKed doesn't stop me from getting cleared. You announce who I should redirect you to and as long as either you or that person is still alive, that should be good. If you die, your secret target can counter-claim the public target if he is lying/recruited.

This applies equally to Kdub if his ability would work better.

I know that, but its not the only thing I'm looking for. More pieces of the puzzle, see? If we had let nopoint get away with god-knows-what under the guise of Hiding we'd be really shitty players.
Its a combination of things: VT claims, unproveable PRs, lurky play, lots of speculation without much definite "X is scum", not wanting to step on toes, etc.
If you look at Succession Mafia, both Animorpherv1, Flameaxe, and Quagmire were under the radar and very non-confrontational for the most part. Very friendly without commiting to reads outside of their group.

This sounds like you're arguing a NPIAU lynch. Is that what you're saying? Because I agree eliminating NPIAU and one NK with him would be great, but I don't really see how that ties in with the rest of your post.

Kdub knows what I was trying to get at with the "are your abilities conditional" thing.

I figured that. I'm assuming it's the "Blue Trade Secret" that you keep hinting at.

[Kast]

@MoI-
-Actually, I specifically did not list the #-shots of any of my new abilities. I don't think it is at all helpful to share how many people I can protect; but I will say I have a much better night action than proving myself by redirecting Andy or Kdub.

@Kast – Dekes asked a good question that you have not answered that I can see. Please do so in your next post.

You say that KK made up a rather obscure name in fear of getting cc'd. So what does that make him exactly? If he's scum do you think he a) didn't get a mod provided fakeclaim, b) was provided a poor fakeclaim of a character not taking part in the Blackest Night that could expose him or c) ignored the mod given fakeclaim and made up his own?

@KK fake claiming-
(c) I'm guessing he got a Green fake-claim (potentially Violet or Blue, but I'm doubting Indigo). Since he claimed late/last (Kdub had essentially claimed Blue), Indigo was the only group with less than 4 members.

@Kdub-
-You think I as town would not make certain actions, but you think I as scum would false claim actions that I as town would not make?
-Given that Spyrex was able to copy at least one of you guys abilities; I think you're mistaken about your ability happening "first". But to be clear then, you do not want to be redirected.

Also, I'll be very amused if Black Recruits me tonight and I get subsequently lynched tomorrow.

[Kast]

@KK-
We agree that cult recruiting isn't bastard modding. That's not what I said. Playing in a semi-open game with a mod confirmed list of factions and adding a faction that is not one of those (ie. mod lying to players about the setup) is bastard modding by definition.

-The confirmation used to be here but has since been redacted. It was pretty clearly in response to MoI pointing out Tomar Re as an example of bastard flavor. I'm sure others besides me read it.

-

Which I find funny because my bio states that Proselyte inhabits my body and as such I don't need a ring.

Which is also funny because Shane Thompson/Proseylte

does not have a ring

.

-Lol. Do you intentionally read bits and pieces while ignoring parts that you dislike, or are you genuinely bad at reading? If recruiting is a Plum controlled OR mod-controlled mechanic that triggered on Plum's death, then keeping Plum alive is something well within town's capabilities as one means of handling it. Additionally, if the recruiting is a mod-controlled (or even player controlled), it likely has some kind of limits.

-A 55/45 split isn't very compelling. Also, you're wrong- Toogloo offered the full 100 to the other player; xvart offered 70/30 or 60/40 - I suppose that's par the course for you?

@Dana-

Was there a reason for redacting your post?

[Kast]

Not going to be around for the weekend. At this point everything looks to hinge on Andy's decision. If you decide to lynch me, give me a chance to share final thoughts on Monday.

If anyone has questions, I'll get to them Monday.

Also @Kdub/Andy-an alternative for proving myself; send a vig kill at me and I'll redirect it to your designated target. If I'm lying, you'll kill me (you pick the vig).

There's several probable scum:
If it's 4x per color, then AGM, one of {Kast, MoI}, and one of {KageLord, NPIAU} are scum.

My flip would finger MoI

NPIAU's Hider claim interaction with Vi marks him as potential scum. It also conflicts with MoI.
KageLord claiming Yellow-pick says he is either Yellow or lying.
Tans Unlynchable + Odd Vig conflicts with Blue Brother making town vigs. Andy's PR also indicated Tans scum
KK claiming non-Blackest Night character. Also claiming to have a ring when the claimed character is not a lantern and does not have a ring.

We've got 1 Red, 1 Orange, 2 Yellows, and potentially 1 Black.
Red- probable AGM, Kage, or KK
Orange- probable NPIAU, MoI, or Tans
Yellow- probable MoI, Tans, or Kage
Black- probable KK or AGM

@Dana-

Removing your comment essentially protects KK's false claim. I can see if you're concerned that your comment makes KK's false claim less plausible, however, consider a parallel, if players are believing a false claim thanks to a mod error (ie. player claims double voter based on an incorrect vote count), you'd still have to correct that vote count and that would directly screw over the false claiming player. Using Tomar Re, instead of using an appropriate character for the series was an error that you already publicly stated (rightly so, since it misleads players who are less familiar with the flavor). The comment didn't directly impact the game and doesn't directly affect KK. But redacting it while KK is using that redaction as support for his implausible fake claim...that's a bit not so cool and more of a direct impact...

[Kast]

Got the prod...not sure that it's necessary especially given it was over a weekend where people are generally busy with life.

@Mod-
Thanks for confirmation.

@Stove/MoI-
-The point on flavor is that the mods intended to have characters in this game come from the source (Blackest Night comics) and is a direct response to KK's objection that Tomar Re being alive in this game is "proof" that flavor doesn't matter so it's reasonable to expect characters who have NO TIES AT ALL with the Blackest Night Story. KK has claimed a brand new character who appeared in the comics (and subsequently in wikis) AFTER mod announced the game AND a couple weeks before the game design was finished. Shane Thompson is not part of the Blackest Night series at all and, despite KK's claim, has NO RING and is NOT an Indigo Lantern.

Aside from that KK was generating scum reads early game for several players, but he got a free pass because people read Fate out of context and jumped to the false conclusion that he was investigation cleared town. Also note, KK has abandoned his previous desire to reduce the number of NKs and instead is pushing the claimed-PR who almost exclusively opposes Black Recruitment. If people really want to kill Black, KK's the most likely candidate for Black Recruiter.

@Andy/Kdub-
I don't know what your powers are, but you're both clearly jumping to conclusions and not reading my full post. I get that you both claim to have unblockable/unredirectable abilities that target others. I get that one of you can give your target the ability to one-shot vig (and potentially other abilities). From your responses, you weren't addressing my previous proposal. The proposal was that if you ARE REALLY unblockable/unredirectable, then I can redirect the VIG KILL (or WHATEVER ABILITY you grant to your target), NOT redirect you. Tell your vig target he has to shoot me; presumably you can pick a target who is unlikely to be "recruited" already.

@Andy-
I think you're seriously overestimating the danger of a Black Cult to scum.
-If SK can be recruited, then he obviously has no incentive to kill Black. If he can't, he still has no incentive since the Black Recruits split up town and allow him an alternate to be lynched instead of himself.
-Red/Yellow scum likely don't have to worry about being recruited, and based on the number of players remaining, it's in their interests to wait one more night before killing each other (Red may aim to kill one Yellow, but then again might just shoot safely since the two primary Yellow suspects might be bulletproof (MoI-claimed it; Tans might be SK if NPIAU isn't).
Scum is going to kill town tonight (or potentially shoot recruited blacks who are indistinguishable from town anyway). Town needs to reduce kills with today's lynch, then use Blue Brother's enabled-vig & tomorrow's lynch to get rid of Black and another NK.

Just try running through the numbers.

VOTE: NPIAU

AGM, Kage, or KK are good alternates. Tans maybe on the off chance he is SK. MoI should be left for Red scum to gamble a wasted kill.

[Kast]

@Andy-
Working on a numbers post that'll be up tonight; however, if you assume Toog was recruited on N0, then obviously it wasn't me as I wasn't anywhere on the site until Jan 10th (this was posted in the sign up threads and I only agreed to join this game on condition that it wouldn't be a problem). Mod can confirm that his initial statement about everyone picking up their PMs was not true for everyone (if he wants to avoid directly confirming me, he can at least admit that the statement was false so it doesn't falsely confirm me as a liar).

[Kast]

@Andy-
Still working on my post but PLEASE don't make a decision based on the assumption that scum WANTS TO HELP TOWN DEAL WITH BLACK, or with the assumption that scum will INTENTIONALLY TRY TO LOSE BY THINNING EACH OTHER RIGHT NOW. I'll prolly have analysis up in 2-3 hours...depending how much time I can slip in between work stuff.

[Kast]

Based on the numbers, we've got 11 alive, and assuming starting distribution of 4x per color:

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Spoiler: If we play by KK's proposal of Kast as Black Recruiter, then...

x₁+x₂+x₃ = 3

thus one of these situations:
(1) For

(x₁, x₂, x₃) = (1,2,0)

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(2) For

(x₁, x₂, x₃) = (0,3,0)

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(3) For

(x₁, x₂, x₃) = (0,2,1)

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For simplicity we can take (1) since KK is badgering Kage and Stove and buddying to Andy/Kdub/Dekes. The numbers work the same for all of them regardless.
-Assuming successful lynch of Black Recruiter TODAY that puts us in this situation for N4:

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--Black is neutered and not a threat to any scum.
--Orange and Yellow are obviously aiming for town PRs (who KK and most are assuming as non-black-recruits).
--Red is the obvious town kill. The revenge kill on town is most likely (if town doesn't kill him, they're going to thin Yellow).
--Assuming town has a vig (that isn't given to Black), then SK is off limits due to BP so Red or Yellow is the obv kill (Red more likely since it eliminates 1 NK).

Probable results:
(1) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes; Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Red (AGM or Kage).
(2) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Red (AGM or Kage).

-If we end up in (1.1) ie. if scum each hit a different townie, then we enter D5 like this:

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--Lynching SK hands the game to Yellow.
--Lynching Black either hands the game to Yellow (if SK does not kill Yellow), or lets town (or black) play Kingmaker between Yellow and SK.
--Lynching Yellow lets town play Kingmaker between Yellow and SK (SK shoots town to force Kingmaker situation rather than auto-loss)

This situation results in a definite town loss with either Yellow OR SK winning.

-Assuming (1.2) since there is a fair/decent chance of scum kills overlapping at that point, we enter D5 like this:

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--Lynching Black (or town) lets SK force a Kingmaker between Yellow and SK.
--Lynching Yellow forces SK to force town to play Kingmaker between Yellow and SK.
--Lynching SK lets town play Kingmaker between Yellow and Black.

This situation results in a definite town loss with either Yellow, Black, OR SK winning.

...the numbers pretty much guaranteed a town loss by lynching me. If any of those numbers are unclear, please say so.

Spoiler: The interactions with an SK and my expectation of the setup argue undisputably that...

I'm pretty sure we're in one of these setups...

--We've got at most 1 Black Recruiter with no current recruits.
--One of NPIAU or KageLord is the fourth Green Lantern.
--AGM is scum by virtue of being 5th Violet Lantern (most likely Red Scum).

(1) AGM is Red; NPIAU is SK; MoI & Tans are Yellow; KK is Black Recruiter; 1 Townie is immune to recruiting

(Alternate version with equivalent numbers: AGM is Red; Tans is SK; MoI & Kage are Yellow; KK is Black Recruiter; 1 Townie is immune to recruiting)

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(2) AGM is Red; NPIAU is SK; MoI & Tans are Yellow; Black Recruiting is dead-player or mod-controlled (if dead player, then limited by my ability, and not recruiting scum; if mod controlled, then probably x₄ uses that follow a predetermined list (e.g. Recruits from list of Operatives) or target randomly); 1 Townie is immune to recruiting

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Looking at the first case (1), we have a couple options for lynches:
(1.1) Lynch Red to remove 1 kill.
(1.2) Lynch Orange to remove 1 kill.
(1.3) Lynch Yellow for Stove's reasons.
(1.4) Lynch Black to remove recruiting.

(1.1) Assuming a successful lynch since a mislynch in any situation pretty much means town loses (or reduces to one of the other alternatives so can be ignored here since it's not what we're aiming for).

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-Black is not a threat to any scum (town vig has to shoot at the suspected Black Recruiter).
-Orange and Yellow are obviously aiming for town PRs (who KK and most are assuming as non-black-recruits).
-Assuming town has a vig (that isn't given to Black), then SK is off limits due to probable BP so Black or Yellow is the obv kill (Black more likely since it potentially eliminate Recruiting).

Probable Results:
(1.1.1) Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruits town.
(1.1.2) Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Blue (Kast). Black Recruits town.
(1.1.3) Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Blue (Kast). Black Recruiting fails.
(1.1.4) Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruiting fails.

-If we end up in (1.1.1), then

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--Lynching SK lets town potentially redirect Yellow Kill at Yellow. If that works, we lynch last Yellow to stop the kills and then guess who the last Black Recruit was (may be discernible based on my protections). If that fails, then we lynch Yellows and town/Black are left in 1 town 1 Black Recruit stalemate.
--Lynching Yellow lets me redirect SK at Yellow. Yellow practically has to kill me as KK's flip will essentially confirm me. Lynch Orange the following day and town has a chance to lynch Black Recruit for the win OR get stuck in 1-1 Town-Black stalemate.
--No lynching lets me redirect Orange at Yellow. Following day has 1 Orange, 1 Yellow, 2 Towns, 1 Black Recruit. Lynching either SK or Yellow is equivalent and the other is lynched the following day. Last scum plays Kingmaker between town win or 1-1 town-Black stalemate.
--Lynching Black lets me redirect Orange at Yellow. Following day has 1 Orange, 1 Yellow, 2 Towns. Town plays Kingmaker with Orange and Yellow.

-If we end up in (1.1.2), town has already lost (no point calculating the endgame).

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-If we end up in (1.1.3), town is almost lost.

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--If SK is lynched, Yellow wins.
--If Yellow is lynched, SK kills non-Yellow to force the Kingmaker (killing Yellow results in his lynch/loss).
--If Black is lynched, SK kills Yellow and forces the Kingmaker.

Town is guaranteed loss in this case.

-If we end up in (1.1.4), then

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--Lynching SK lets town potentially redirect Yellow Kill at Yellow. If that works, we lynch last Yellow to win. If that fails, then we lynch Yellows for town win.
--Lynching Yellow lets me redirect SK at Yellow. Yellow practically has to kill me as KK's flip will essentially confirm me. Lynch Orange the following day for town win.
--No lynching lets me redirect Orange at Yellow. Following day has 1 Orange, 1 Yellow, 3 Towns. Lynching either SK or Yellow is equivalent and the other is lynched the following day.

This is a town win.

(1.2) This is extremely similar to 1.1 only better for town.

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-Black is not a threat to any scum (town vig has to shoot at the suspected Black Recruiter).
-Red and Yellow are obviously aiming for town PRs (too many towns to start killing each other and have a chance at winning).
-Assuming town has a vig (that isn't given to Black), then Black or Red is the obv kill (Black potentially eliminates Recruiting and 1 cult member; Red removes a Kill).
-From (1.1) analysis, it should be clear that vig-killing Blue (Kast) results in guaranteed town loss. Blue Brother's chosen vig should take that into account while evaluating if Kast is the right vig-kill.

Probable Results:
(1.2.1) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruits town.
(1.2.2) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruiting fails.
(1.2.3) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Red (AGM). Black Recruits town.
(1.2.4) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Red (AGM). Black Recruiting fails.

-Going to (1.2.1) means town has a chance.

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--Lynching Red means I have a chance to redirect Yellow at Yellow. If it works, we lynch Yellow, then I can ID the last Black. If it fails, then I get killed, we lynch remaining Yellows who play Kingmaker between Town win or 1-1 Town-Black Stalemate.
--Lynching Yellow means I redirect Red to Yellow. Yellow kills me. Lynch Red. Lynch Black for town win or 1-1 Town-Black Stalemate.
--Lynching Black means I redirect Red to Yellow. Yellow kills me. Following day is 1 Red, 1 Yellow, 2 Town. No lynch and hope for the Nash cross kill.

Town has opportunities to win.

-Going to (1.2.2) is even better for town:

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--Lynching Red means I have a chance to redirect Yellow at Yellow. If it works, we lynch Yellow and win. If it fails, we lynch Yellow and win.
--Lynching Yellow means I redirect Red to Yellow. Yellow kills me. Lynch Red and Town wins.

Town wins.

-Going to (1.2.3) gives town a chance to win:

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--Lynch Yellow. I redirect last Yellow at Black (proving that I can redirect AND that I'm not the recruiter). Following day is 1 Yellow, 2 Town, 2 Black or 1 Yellow, 3 Town, 1 Black. We practically have to lynch Yellow and hope the last Black Recruiting failed. Could result in a Town win, Black win, or 1-1 or 2-2 Town-Black Stalemate.
--Lynch Black Recruiter. I have a chance to redirect Yellow at Yellow. If it succeeds, we're in the same boat as the previous round and either Town wins or 1-1 Town-Black Stalemate. If it fails, then Black or I get killed. Following day is 2 Yellow, 1 Town, 2 Black or 2 Yellow, 2 Town, 1 Black. Both cases result in town playing Kingmaker with Yellow and Black.
--Lynch Black Recruit. I have a chance to redirect Yellow at Black Recruiter. If it succeeds, we're in 2 Yellow, 2 Town, 1 Black and we play Kingmaker with Yellow or 1-1 Town-Black Stalemate.

This one is pretty mixed.

-Similarly, (1.2.4) gives town a strong chance to win:

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--Lynch Yellow. I redirect last Yellow at Black (proving that I can redirect AND that I'm not the recruiter). Following day is 1 Yellow, 3 Town, 1 Black or 1 Yellow, 4 Town. Lynch Yellow for the town win (I investigate to confirm).
--Lynch Black Recruiter. I redirect Yellow at Yellow. If successful, town wins. If not, town lynches remaining Yellow and wins.

Town wins here.

(1.3) This option leaves us in a pretty mixed game state.

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-Black is not a threat to any scum (town vig has to shoot at the suspected Black Recruiter).
-Red, Orange, and Yellow are obviously aiming for town PRs (too many towns to start killing each other and have a chance at winning).
-Assuming town has a vig (that isn't given to Black), then Black or Red is the obv kill (Black potentially eliminates Recruiting and 1 cult member; Red removes a Kill).

Probable Results:
(1.3.1) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruits Town.
(1.3.2) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruiting Fails.
(1.3.3) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Red or Yellow. Black Recruits Town.
(1.3.4) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Red or Yellow. Black Recruiting Fails.
(1.3.5) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruits Town.
(1.3.6) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruiting Fails.
(1.3.7) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Red or Yellow. Black Recruits Town.
(1.3.8) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Red or Yellow. Black Recruiting Fails.

-If (1.3.1), then game state is winnable.

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--Lynching Red/Orange/Yellow is identical. I can redirect 1 Scum at Scum and we lynch remaining scum for a town win or 1-1 Town-Black Stalemate.
--Lynch Black Recruit. I redirect Orange at Yellow. Unclear what Red or Yellow will do, but likely this is time for them to cross kill each other. If they do, we win. If not, at least one survives which means we play Kingmaker between Orange and remaining scum.

Town wins if we play it smart.

-If (1.3.2), same as (1.3.1)

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-If (1.3.3), the situation is identical for Red vigged or Yellow vigged, so just going to handle Red:

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--Lynch Yellow or Orange is equivalent; I redirect Yellow to kill the Black Recruiter. We either lynch Yellow for a 2-2 Stalemate or no lynch to let Yellow play Kingmaker for Town-Black.
--Lynch Black Recruiter. I redirect Orange to kill Yellow. Yellow plays Kingmaker between Town or Stalemate.
Scum decides if Town wins or Stalemate with Black.

-If (1.3.4), same as (1.3.3) except the Stalemates become more probable Town wins.

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-If (1.3.5) & (1.3.6) similar:

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--Lynch Red/Orange/Yellow equivalent, I redirect Scum to Scum, and we lynch remaining Scum. We then lynch Black Recruit for the win or Stalemate.

Guaranteed win in (1.3.6)

-If (1.3.7) & (1.3.8) are similar to (1.3.3) and (1.3.4):

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Same strategies as before, only the extra hitpoint means town doesn't get stuck in the Stalemate.

Town wins.

(1.4) This sort of depends if town lynches the actual Black (KK) or Andy's suspected Black (Kast).

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-Black is gone.
-Red, Orange, and Yellow are obviously aiming for town PRs (too many towns and no Black to soak kills at this point).
-Assuming town has a vig, then SK is off limits due to probable BP so Red is the obv kill (Red removes on NK).

Probable Results:
(1.4.1) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Red (AGM). I redirect Orange to Yellow (Tans).
(1.4.2) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Red (AGM). I redirect Orange to Yellow (Tans).

-If (1.4.1), then Town is in great shape:

0

/

1

/

1

/

1

/

2

/

1

/

0

/0

Lynch Orange and Yellow for town win.

-If (1.4.2), then Town is in even BETTER shape:

0

/

1

/

1

/

1

/

3

/

1

/

0

/0

Lynch Orange and vig Yellow for town win.

(1.4)' This sort of depends if town lynches the actual Black (KK) or Andy's suspected Black (Kast).

1

/

1

/

2

/

1

/

3

/

1

/

0

/1

-Mislynch on Kast should make KK the OBVIOUS Black Recruiter (note, we've already covered the case where Kast is actually the Black Recruiter).
-Red, Orange, and Yellow are obviously aiming for town PRs (too many towns, and Black can soak town vigs or lynches for them).
-Assuming town has a vig, then SK is off limits due to probable BP so Black or Red is the obv kill (Black potentially eliminates Recruiting and 1 cult member; Red removes a Kill).

Probable Results:
(1.4.1)' Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruits Town.
(1.4.2)' Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruiting Fails.
(1.4.3)' Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Red (AGM). Black Recruits Town.
(1.4.4)' Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Red (AGM). Black Recruiting Fails.
(1.4.5)' Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruits Town.
(1.4.6)' Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Black (KK). Black Recruiting Fails.
(1.4.7)' Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Red (AGM). Black Recruits Town.
(1.4.8)' Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Red (AGM). Black Recruiting Fails.

-If (1.4.1)' or (1.4.2)', are both essentially auto-loss for town.

1

/

1

/

2

/

1

/

0-1

/

0

/

0

/1-0

--If SK is lynched, Yellow avoids the crosskill to force the Kingmaker between Yellow and Red (this avoids a forced Town-Black Stalemate or Town win in (1.4.2)').
--If Red is lynched, SK kills Yellow and town must play Kingmaker between Yellow and SK.
--If Yellow is lynched, SK kills Red or Yellow and town plays Kingmaker between SK and remaining scum.

Town loss in all cases.

-If (1.4.3)' or (1.4.4)', then things aren't any better.

0

/

1

/

2

/

1

/

0-1

/

0

/

0

/2-1

--Lynching Yellow means Yellow and Orange kill Black. Town or Black plays Kingmaker with Yellow and Orange.

--Lynching Orange means Yellow kills Black Recruiter and wins.
--Lynching Black Recruiter means Orange kills Yellow and Yellow kills either Black or Town. Last Black or Town plays Kingmaker with Yellow and Orange.

Town loss in all cases.

-If (1.4.5)' or (1.4.6)', the extra hitpoint isn't able to stop this from becoming a game of Kingmaker:

1

/

1

/

2

/

1

/

0-1

/

1

/

0

/1-0

--Lynch Orange forces Red to kill Yellow. Yellow has to kill town and let them play Kingmaker.
--Lynch Red lets Orange kill Yellow and Yellow kill town for another game of Kingmaker.
--Lynch Yellow lets Orange kill either of them and they force town into another game of Kingmaker.

Town-Black is forced into Kingmaker with a scum win

-If (1.4.7)' or (1.4.8)', then town finally has a slight chance:

0

/

1

/

2

/

1

/

0-1

/

1

/

0

/2-1

--Lynching Orange forces Yellow to guess at a townie or Black Recruit (killing Black Recruiter turns things into a Kingmaker between Town and Black depending if recruiting was successful). Town must then play Kingmaker between Black and Yellow. If Yellow killed the Black Recruit, then he is forced into Kingmaker between Town and Black.
--Lynching Yellow forces Yellow to kill Black. Orange has to leave Yellow alive or else he will be lynched, so this results in Kingmaker between SK and Yellow.

Low chance, but this looks like the only chance town has of winning in this case.

...an SK lynch is the clear way to go for today to give town the best chances of winning. Lynching Red is next best, assuming town vigs KK-Black Recruiter.




@KK-
-You're a blatant liar. You explicitly named both Fate and Plum as examples of flavor that support your claim that mods aren't sticking to the Source.
-Don't pretend you are completely stupid. You made a BS claim. As a result of the BS claim, you went from probable scum to definitely scum. You enhanced your BS claim and abandoned your previous strategy of lynching SK in favor of lynching threats to Black; revealing yourself as probable Black. Obviously my reads will change in response to you giving information that you are lying.

@Tans/Yellow-
The thought occurred that if Tans could potentially be the Yellow GF with a one shot lynch immunity (instead of Janitor/INV. IMMUNE). Tans as yellow scum fits with him truthfully claiming 2 kills and no other actions (in case there was a tracker result on him). This isn't a strong suspicion, but I don't think anyone raised it yet, and it fits his claim.

[Kast]

It's long and somewhat dense.

You have to go through the numbers in each ones context. I also got lazy/bored of this so I didn't finish section 2 of the second spoiler (but everyone thinks I'm crazy for even considering that anyway so meh...).

If you absolutely don't trust that I have redirection (ie. it conflicts with your role or whatever), then many of the cases in which my redirection is used to stop a kill switch from town win/stalemate into town loss/stalemate.

I do think the Recruiting is Operative Only, sounds like a very plausible limitation/mechanic.

[Kast]

Also, to add on Stove's speculation, I bet KK's setting up for a Stove recruit tonight.

[Kast]

Aside from the other inherently bad assumptions in your large wall of numbers (one of which is that I’m Yellow) this line in itself is exactly why you spent all the time you did for nothing. Based on the claims as they have come down and based on the existence of a Black Recruiter the 4 across the board theory has been blown to Hades.

Based on the claims as they have come down and the existence of a single Black Recruiter who otherwise defies the 4x per color, then 4x per color is PERFECTLY supported by all evidence at hand.
Also, nothing in my numbers assumes you are Yellow, you're just whining about being called probable Yellow.

Telegraphing in thread who you would want to recruit would be suicide.

Explain. There's obvious benefit if Stove gets killed and flips Black Recruit; it gives KK a platform to claim his speculations are correct. If people make the silly assumption that you are doing, then Stove flipping Black Recruit also let's him push the defense that he can't be the Black Recruiter because he wouldn't have pointed out Stove as a Black Recruit.

@Kdub-
Are you actually reading through my scenarios?

First, I don't see why x1+x2+x3 necessarily has to equal 3.

This is based on the speculation that KK and others have pushed forward as the PRIMARY reason for lynching me: Kast is Black Recruiter and has been recruiting successfully since N1.
You can run through each scenario while subtracting 1-2 Black Recruits and adding 1-2 additional towns, but the REASON that situations of successfully lynching the Black Recruiter TODAY result in a TOWN LOSS hinges on the number of kills happening each night. Scum doesn't care whether it's 5 Town - 1 Black, 4 Town - 2 Black, or 3 Town - 3 Black. It's all the same to them in terms of the voting pool and whether to shoot each other or not.
You could also look at the scenarios in the latter half in which Black Recruiter is lynched first, but take out Kast's potential redirect. Those scenarios also result in Town Loss without the redirection to kill a scum and block a town death.

A lot of your scenarios also seem to assume that different scum groups will all target different town PRs, which is the worst case scenario, but fairly unlikely.

This is just you being lazy and not reading. I included both scenarios where 3 scum kills result in 2 town deaths AND where 3 scum kills result in 3 town deaths. The scenario where 3 scum kills results in 1 town death is just wishful thinking.

I'd like to see what your analysis would look like if we assume you are the black recruiter and we DON'T lynch you today (assume we lynch orange or whoever you want instead). If you're honest in your analysis, I bet things don't end up looking any better for the town, and in fact I could see things looking much worse.

Spoiler: Done

Assuming Kast is Black Recruiter with 2 Black Recruits, then leaving him today means:
(1) Lynch SK (removes a kill and allows potential NK on Red)
(2) Lynch Yellow (evens playing field among scum teams; making crosskills more likely in end game)

-If (1), then:

1

/

0

/

2

/

0

/

2

/

2

/

0

/3

--Black is needs to be killed by town and still not a threat to scum.
--Remaining Scum still have to aim for Town PRs.
--Assuming town has a vig, then SK is off limits due to BP so Black Recruiter is the obv kill with Red as runner up.

Probable results:
(1.1) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Black Recruiter (Kast); Black Recruits Town.
(1.2) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Black Recruiter (Kast); Black Recruiting Fails.
(1.3) Red kills town PR (Andy); Yellow kills town PR (Andy); Blue kills Black Recruiter (Kast); Black Recruits Town.
(1.4) Red kills town PR (Andy); Yellow kills town PR (Andy); Blue kills Black Recruiter (Kast); Black Recruiting Fails.

-For (1.1) and (1.2), this puts us in this situation:

1

/

0

/

2

/

0

/

0

/

1-2

/

0

/3-2

--Lynch Red then Yellow. Yellow is forced to aim for Black and create a three way 1 Yellow, 1 Town, 1 Black that's likely to be a 1-1 Black-Town Stalemate.
--Lynch Yellow. Red and Yellow can't cross kill yet (guarantees loss to Black) so they must shoot Black. Cross kill leaves a 1-1 Black-Town Stalemate.

Black-Town Stalemate if (1.1), low chance for town win if (1.2).

-For (1.3) and (1.4), this puts us in this situation:

1

/

0

/

2

/

0

/

1

/

1-2

/

0

/3-2

--Lynch Red, then Yellow. If surviving blue PR can make a vig, then town wins. If not, then Yellow plays Kingmaker with Town and Black.
--Lynch Yellow. Red and Yellow can't cross kill yet (guarantees loss to either Town or Black). They have to kill the remaining town PR to stop potential vigs (probably double kill). If town has a vig, then shoot one scum group. Remaining scum group plays Kingmaker between Black or 1-1 Town-Black Stalemate (1.4 changes this to Kingmaker between Town or 1-1 Town-Black Stalemate).

Winning strategy is to eliminate the kills by lynching Red.

-If (2) then:

1

/

1

/

1

/

0

/

2

/

2

/

0

/3

--Black needs to be killed by town and still not a threat to scum.
--Remaining Scum still have to aim for Town PRs.
--Assuming town has a vig, then SK is off limits due to BP so Black Recruiter is the obv kill with Red as runner up.

Probable results:
(2.1) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Black Recruiter (Kast); Black Recruits Town.
(2.2) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub/Dekes); Blue kills Black Recruiter (Kast); Black Recruiting Fails.
(2.3) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Black Recruiter (Kast); Black Recruits Town.
(2.4) Red kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Orange kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Yellow kills town PR (Andy/Kdub); Blue kills Black Recruiter (Kast); Black Recruiting Fails.

-For (2.1), town is eliminated and for (2.2) town has essentially lost:

1

/

1

/

1

/

0

/

0

/

0

/

0

/3

--Lynching non-SK means SK forces Kingmaker between himself and either Red or Yellow.
--Lynching SK lets Red and Yellow force Nash cross kill between each other with either Black win or 1-1 Town-Black Stalemate.

This is just bad for town.

-For (2.3), the situation boils down to 2.2 which gives town at best a Stalemate, while (2.4) is the only moderate outcome for town:

1

/

1

/

1

/

0

/

0

/

1-2

/

0

/3-2

--Lynching non-SK means SK forces Kingmaker between himself and Red or Yellow.
--Lynching SK lets Red and Yellow force Nash cross kill that results in either Town win, Black win, or Stalemate (Red/Yellow determine this with their kills).

Overall, lynching Yellow would be a bad strategy now.

I'm just going to point out that you have started with the assumption that you are town, which from my point of view (and the point of view of any other town player), can't be assumed up front, and probably changes your scenarios quite a bit when we account for those probabilities.

RTFP! I addressed this exact point in my post.

[Kast]

@Andy-
If you have something that gives town a big advantage, then awesome.
By saying you don't want to trust that scum will do what they have to do, are you saying you want to assume scum will suicidally kill each other tonight?

[Kast]

@Kdub-

I'm just going to point out that you have started with the assumption that you are town, which from my point of view (and the point of view of any other town player), can't be assumed up front, and probably changes your scenarios quite a bit when we account for those probabilities.

If you absolutely don't trust that I have redirection (ie. it conflicts with your role or whatever), then many of the cases in which my redirection is used to stop a kill switch from town win/stalemate into town loss/stalemate.

You presented two scenarios in which there is one Black (the recruiter) based on your "expected" setup, neither of which included you as scum

This proves you didn't read my post. Read again you are completely wrong. I posted three "scenarios" one in which I am the Black Recruiter, one in which I am not the Black Recruiter (KK is the probable one but who it is specifically is

IRRELEVANT TO THE ANALYSIS

), and one in which there is no Black Recruiter (I didn't go into this one in depth). Within the scenario in which there IS a Black Recruiter AND it is NOT ME, I went through MULTIPLE CHAINS that each have

NOTHING AT ALL TO DO

with Kast as

SCUM OR TOWN

.

Your decision to call me scum and use that as an excuse to ignore reading (or just read bits and pieces of) the analysis is ridiculous. Everything I posted is completely transparent and evaluating them from a logical/rational PoV is independent of my affiliation.

If you believe I am town, then my DEMONSTRABLE redirection turns some Town Loss cases into potential Win/Stalemates. If you don't, then they become losses. Treating them as losses (ie. assuming Kast non-Black Scum) doesn't change the fact that lynching Black or Yellow

TODAY

gives town a lower chance of winning than lynching Red or Orange and eliminating a Night Kill.

It's hard to take you seriously when you focus on a limited number of scenarios and then complain about me not reading when I think you know very well that you are trying to cover for yourself.

Lulz pure nonsense. "I'm not reading the whole thing because you might be scum. Reading one part out of context sounds like you only talked about one aspect. You're probably trying to convince us of something."

There's an infinite space for possible scenarios. I covered the most probable/widely believed situations. Even then, it's already too much for you to even attempt reading through as you've already admitted. If I included pages of additional but less probable and practically irrelevant ones, it would only give you more "reasons" to avoid reading. Obviously if you just read one case you won't get the analysis on the other cases that you chose to not read. And OBVIOUSLY I want people to consider my analysis when making decisions today/tonight. Is there another reason for posting analysis and DIRECTLY ASKING PEOPLE TO CONSIDER IT?

Your last post continues to take the most pessimistic views of the game situation rather than the most realistic.

If you think any of my analyses or conclusions are unrealistic, then explain how. If you're just whining because you looked at a case about A, ignored the case about B, then complain that the case about A isn't about B...

RTFP!!

I can't help you if you're trying to be stupid; you're the one who chose to not read the case about B.

Also, WTF!?!>@? YOU asked ME to analyse the first scenario (Kast as BLACK RECRUITER) if we don't lynch the BLACK RECRUITER.

YOU

are claiming it's the

SAME REASONING

, but it shows town has

BETTER CHANCES

; WTH are you whining about?!?@? Are you even trying to make sense?

@Andy/NPIAU-
-Good move. Reducing NKs is the way to go.
--On the off chance that NPIAU flips green, that'll leave Kage as nigh confirmed scum; keep that in mind if you want to look at Greens tonight.
-I hope you're not expecting scum to shoot at Black. If you are determined to think I'm the Black Recruiter, you need your vig to shoot at me. Being coy about it is just going to cause confusion; especially when scum NK you and Kdub so you're not around to explain things (

because as much as you both wish it won't happen, that's the obvious move for scum

).
--If you want to kill Red, then AGM is more probable than Tans.

[Kast]

Mostly caught up.

Last night I used my 1x redirect on MoI targeting KK. After NPIAU flipped non-SK, MoI's bulletproof claim made him the most probable actual SK.

I think it should be clear and obvious that I'm the ONLY person who would even attempt to do anything to KK. Redirecting MoI to KK should prove I'm not Black. At the least it should confirm I'm telling the truth about my redirection, and hence show I am a PR (which if Andy still holds to his belief that PRs are unlikely to be Black Recruiter, that should add to it).

I was wrong about KK being Black Recruiter, but his flip also tells us something else: MoI is VERY LIKELY the Black Recruiter. Dana won't confirm whether their initial heads-up note to me means Black started recruiting the night Plum died or the night after Plum died, but from PMing RC, I think I'm right about that suspicion. The implications of this are that we got pretty lucky with Toog getting killed the night he was recruited, and now again KK was likely killed the same night he was recruited.

If Black has an additional limitation to only recruiting Operatives, then Stove is likely the next target for tonight.

Also, in the event I get killed (which seems likely with people being too stubborn to look at the evidence and realize it's ridiculous to think I'm Black), I'm just going to share that Andy is immune to Black Recruiting via my protection ability. Provided Dekes can keep Andy alive, everyone can rest assured that Andy isn't Black (sharing that means Black won't waste an attempt on Andy, but if they're limited to VTs only, then they already know to avoid him).

@Kdub-
Does your power confirm a player as non-scum or as non-Red/Yellow/Orange?

@Remaining scum-
I'd mark Tans as probable last Yellow with Kage as probable Orange SK. If Tans isn't Yellow, then there's also a weak chance that Stove is Yellow GF (I don't think Andy or Kdub has confirmed Stove, correct me if I'm wrong on that thought). Tans lynch works for today. If he is the last Yellow, then his unlynchable claim has got to be a bluff. If is town, then he'll be alive and un-NK-able and his vig kill can semi-clear him depending who he shoots.

@Tans-
If you are a townie, MoI is the probable Black Recruiter and Stove is probably the Yellow GF and if not, the most likely Black Recruit target for tonight.

If you're scum, then I hope your unlynchable claim is a bluff

@MoI-
You really have a thing for "spewing" and "crap". Do you have a personal goal to use those words/phrase/imagery in every game?

[Kast]

Oops, meant to:
VOTE: Tanstalas

[Kast]

@Andy-
PLEASE read my posts more carefully and at least consider my PoV. With all the assumptions you guys have convinced yourselves of without even LOOKING at evidence, you're not reading properly.

-I have a ONE SHOT REDIRECT!!!@!@@! NOT A BUS DRIVER!@!@!@!

I picked MOI BECAUSE HE WAS PROBABLE SK.

EVERYTHING

he did gets redirected to the target

I PICK

. His BLACK RECRUITMENT and his KILL got redirected from whoever he wanted to target to KK. When I die and flip town, you NEED TO PAY ATTENTION and LYNCH MOI.

Kast, you forget that MOI IS CONFIRMED TOWN VIA KDUB.

You forget that I DON"T KNOW HOW YOUR POWER WORKS. This is why I think you're not paying attention. If you read the next part that you quoted, you'd REALIZE I don't know whether MoI is confirmed or not. I doubt he actually is.

IF black is limited to VTs then...
WAIT.
WHY PROTECT ME IF THEY CAN ONLY RECRUIT VTS?
I think some timestamps may in order.

I DON"T KNOW if Black is limited to VTs. If I knew/suspected that, I would have tried protecting a VT.

If Black is NOT limited to VTs, and if RC's PMs were meant to mislead me, then it's ALSO possible that Kdub was recruited to Black.

YO! What's all this about? :S

It's my thoughts in case I die. I already explained why Black is almost definitely MoI; the remaining scum are likely Tans and Kage. What was unclear about this?

Or MoI. If they can get away with that.

MoI claimed bulletproof; he's NOT a VT. Besides, he IS the Black Recruiter so there's no way he's getting recruited.

[Kast]

@PZ-
-Are you seriously claiming that Kast Black Recruiter INTENTIONALLY KILLED a Black Recruit?
-Are you doubting that I redirected MoI's kill to KK?
--Which would imply you think scum aimed to kill KK, the claimed VT for what reason?

That's about as stupid as implying Yellow scum killed AGM last night.

@Kdub-
Works for me.

[Kast]

@Kdub-
If MoI started the game as Blue, then became a Black Recruiter on Plum's death, would your ability stop working on him?

It's possible Black Recruited KK independently of MoI getting redirected, but that just seems unlikely.

@Andy-
As I said, I think Kage is probable Orange and Tans is probable Yellow.

@Dekes-
-You're saying you think both MoI and Yellow tried to kill me last night? Why would Yellow try to kill me instead of say...Kdub or Andy (or even claimed PR Dekes)?
-I think you aren't remembering right:

Orange- probable NPIAU, MoI, or Tans

Kage wasn't even one of my SK suspects, he was primarily a Red suspect, with AGM as potential other red suspect.

On re-reading, also realized Black may have avoided recruiting Stove last night on the off chance that I protected Stove (based on my public speculation that KK was going to recruit Stove). KK would be a "safe" recruit since it was extremely unlikely that I would protect KK.

[Kast]

@MoI-
To be clear, you're saying I gambited that claiming to be a JoAT with a redirect would be so unbelievable that people would want to shoot me and then I could claim I redirected it. Despite the fact that I also offered to redirect

ANY

player of the town's choice to

ANY

other player.

Makes tons of sense; it's such a winning play to make a fake claim with the intention of getting people to not believe you and thus try to NK you.

[Kast]

@Dekes-
Wow, reading failure. Way to falsely paraphrase an out of context statement.

(Red may aim to kill one Yellow, but then again might just shoot safely since the two primary Yellow suspects might be bulletproof (MoI-claimed it; Tans might be SK if NPIAU isn't).

I explicitly state that Red is unlikely to aim at Yellow since RED would likely avoid the claimed BP in MoI and the potential BP from Tans as SK. That's NOT stating Tans is the most likely SK if NPIAU isn't. That doesn't say anything at all about my suspicions (unless meant that I was claiming Red).

@Andy-
If you don't want to risk hammering, fine.
UNVOTE: Tans

@My Expectations for D6-
If Tans is last Yellow, he likely dies now and 1 NK eliminated.
If Kdub gives me the shot, Kage is prolly BP so he won't die anyway (but at least I can confirm with Kdub). If Kdub doesn't give me the shot, then he should learn that Kage is scum (SK).
Kage is prolly SK, so he's likely to just shoot Dekes (there's potential for shooting me with his SK bullets...but that seems unlikely since he wouldn't know whether Kdub picks him or not).

That leaves us in D6 with:
Andy Blue
Kage Orange
Kast Blue/Green
Kdub Blue
MoI (Black?)
TS (Black?)

We'd need to lynch Black Recruiter, then SK, then Last Black. If Kdub is ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE, that MoI isn't Black and if he confirms Kast/town instead of Kage/SK, then it would only leave TS.

If Tans is telling the truth/town, then same as before except 2 extra kills from Tans and Yellow (less likely, but if Tans is 1x unlynchable Yellow GF, then there is just 1 extra kill from Yellow).
-In this case, Yellow doesn't have many targets: can't shoot protected Blues, can't shoot Tans (1x BP), can't shoot Kage (SK prolly BP), can't shoot MoI (claimed BP)...so either Dekes (prolly double-killed), TheStove, or Kast. TS is out of the list if he is the Yellow GF. If Tans is town, he's prolly shooting me...unless he counts on Kage to shoot me, or if he realizes I'm telling the truth and MoI is potential Black.

That leaves us in D6 with:
Andy Blue
Kage Orange
Kdub Blue
MoI (Yellow/Black?)
Tans Green
TS (Yellow/Black?)

If SK is lynched, then Kdub can give Andy vig to kill either MoI or TS. That should drop us in 2T and 1Yellow or Black, so hopefully it's obvious who to lynch at that point.

[Kast]

@Tans-
Even under your proposal, Kdub's test will

still

determine whether Kage is town or not regardless of whether anyone dies simply by testing whether Kage got his Blue Vig or not.

If I don't die tonight you know Kast is scum and he gets rope tomorrow

-Didn't you claim BP? If you're not lying, then Kage's kill on you should fail regardless of his affiliation.

if [Kage] doesn't die you know I am scum and get rope.

-If Kage is the Orange SK, then he's probably BP, so your kill on him should fail. If it doesn't fail, then it means he is prolly a townie (or at least not SK). That kinda test is pretty anti-town.

If you want a reasonable test, shoot at MoI. If he is town, he's bulletproof so no harm done AND you confirm his BP claim. If he is Black, you become my hero.

@Andy-
Guess you didn't notice my unvote...but ok hope this plays out like one of my expected scenarios.
VOTE: Tans

[Kast]

I'm not yellow

Are you Black/Orange?

[Kast]

Firstly, I enjoyed the game. I'll be up for Brightest Day, though I'd much prefer if it's less bastard.

Secondly, I thought it was frustrating at points and I don't think it was as balanced as it could have been with some simple changes, but a lot of that is in my post in the dead QT.

@Stuff in here:

First of all, the cult recruiter should not have been bulletproof. Strangely enough, this did not come in to play at all, but since the cult was "secret", it was probably going a little too far.

Actually, since I redirected the Red NK to MoI on N1, it DID come into play and would have given me a practically guaranteed town slot once I claimed Blue (I only claimed color-changing BECAUSE there were too many Blues).

I'm amused that MoI tried to recruit me N1 and I tried to kill him N1. We both failed; but since he ultimately won, and I ultimately killed all his recruits, I think we both were definitely on to the right track in terms of threats to our teams.

Second, town's PRs were a little too slanted to taking out the scum teams and SK rather than the cult. In retrospect, I would have allowed KageLord's cop ability to find black without specifically mentioning black in his role PM. Again, though, I'm not sure this would have changed anything.

Half the town were cops/investigators (7/16),

4 of which are GUARANTEED SANE for innocents

:

-Reck: Guaranteed innocent on towns and guaranteed scum on guilty. Has a partner to share results if he dies.
-Kdub: Guaranteed innocent on towns AND confirmable ability to his target
-Andy: Guaranteed innocent on town PRs AND confirmable ability to his target (if not Vanilla)
-Spyrex: Guaranteed innocent on town PRs AND confirmable ability to his target

-Fate
-Kage
-Starbuck

3. KageLord (green, yellow) (no other preferences mentioned)

Why didn't Kage get Yellow? If he hadn't claimed to pick Yellow in thread, I'd have pushed harder for the Kage wagon and tried to give Tans some more breathing room.

@RC/Reck-
-Reaper insinuating that Reck cheated was uncalled for and inappropriate.
-Reck should know better than to blindly believe SensFans' bitching about mods. From the QT it's obviously a response to Guderian's request for additional fake claims, and it's not helping/advising Red scum team.

Re: Magna being bulletproof: Overall, seeing that the cult would have been dead on N1 vs winning as they did, I would rather the current outcome than the possible one.

There'd be a lot less whining if MoI was the only one screwed

But he never recruited scum, Benmage.

He failed to recruit Yellow scum on N1 (normally would hav ebeen his death...though if he knew it could kill him he'd prolly have recruited elsewhere).

That doesn't seem like a very powerful anti-town faction.

MoI is smart. He'd have recruited differently (prolly avoided the people that confirmed scum wanted to kill) if it was more limited.

Lulz @whining that a scum-prod requested by scum-teammate is somehow inappropriate.