Cold War Mafia - GAME OVER!!

[Feysal]

I replaced into this game half an hour ago, so no wonder you can't see any posts from me.

I have quite a bit of reading to do, but for now I'll unvote, since I have no idea yet what my predecessor's vote was about.

Unvote: Furcolow

Preview edit: beaten by Sathoris. No matter.

[Feysal]

At last, I've finished reading the thread. Up to the last post. Feels like I still have a ton of work to do though before I'll really know my bearings in this game. Essentially, after reading the whole thing through in one day and most of it in one sitting, I must have missed or forgotten plenty of things on the way. RedCoyote, DavidParker and Artem are among my better town reads for now. Several others I have more or less shaky town reads on, and I'm uncertain on about half of the playerlist. To speak of suspects, I feel pleased in being able to agree with my predecessor about Furcolow. As I was reading, I often saw him say and do things that would've gotten anyone else lynched, but from a village idiot they are somehow tolerated. Now, I can understand some people having town reads on him, since his town play can be atrocious, but if Furcolow survives this game after doing all this I am going to be very unhappy. Doing stupid things is one thing, but doing blatantly anti-town things and hiding behind a meta of stupidity is another. Evidently, this is not enough to convince people of him being scum though. Nothing ever seems to be... and I've seen people believe Furcolow town even after he murdered a townie in broad daylight.

After saying all that, I'm afraid I need to ask for some patience before I make my case, since it is simply much too late for me to write it now, and I expect it to be long. Usually I would be sleeping by this hour, but I wanted to finish my readthrough. Some other reads and thoughts will also have to wait for a while.

Regarding the setup, I feel that LlamaFluff was too harsh when closing the door on that discussion. Understanding his point of maybe revealing too much about our roles, I think he underestimated the amount of information already available and the conclusions we can draw from it. I started reading the first pages when I was asked if I was still willing to replace in, and before I even got my role PM I had a theory about the setup that I believe I should share. Not to take time away from scumhunting, is anyone interested? Everything I used to come up with the theory is already in the thread too, and if I'm right the scum should already know anyway, so I see no harm in it. No one seems to have reached the same conclusions though, or if someone has, no one has mentioned it.

[Feysal]

As promised, here is my case on Furcolow, hidden with spoiler tags because of its length.

Spoiler: Furcolow case

For starters, my experience playing with Furcolow consists of two games. One of them is ongoing so I can't talk about it, but Furcolow was town there. The other was Mafia Holographica where Furcolow was scum. It was there that I discovered how stubbornly people can ignore scumtells from village idiots, dismissing them because of their poor playstyle. At the end of the game, Furcolow shot another player who everyone agreed to be confirmed town, and this

still

did not convince the other townies of Furcolow being scum. Consequently I was the only townie who survived, but I was outgunned and endgamed. Lesson of the story is you should never excuse scummy behavior from village idiots because of their playstyle, unless you want to be stabbed in the back when they turn out to be scum.

Furcolow of course started the game with his random questions and no vote. The first two questions were harmless enough, but the third was akin to massive role fishing. LMP noticed this in #18, and Furcolow's response in #74 suggests he was right. If Furcolow intended to break the game with the responses to question three, he was role fishing. And what is this?

Right. However, I don't believe we should scream at the top of our lungs where we are from.

Is anyone open to a nameclaim? Do you feel scum have fake nameclaims?

First Furcolow expresses an opinion against claiming, and later he suggests claiming himself. This seems dishonest to me, like the first opinion was only posted to appear town after being accused of role fishing, only to start role fishing later. Contradicting your own opinion while doing something anti-town? Very scummy.

I'm also bothered by how Furcolow made a single post and then disappeared for a full day. His explanation was that it was a reaction test, and he later defended his questions by saying random votes were a distraction. I've seen this before.

I like early-game reaction-tests as town, PoisonIvy.

The last time I heard Furcolow say this he was scum and he had just shot at me. His claim of liking reaction tests

as town

gets him no town credit whatsoever from me. And while we're on the subject...

I love how all 3 votes on me were sheeped, and only pappums rat has even

tried

to defend his vote on me
It's really just laughable to me that I was even wagoned for RQS whatsoever. If anything, the town should thank me. RVS is a distraction.

Angling for town credit here, but what really struck me as scummy was his claim of RVS being a distraction. It seemed like an awfully convenient view to take in this situation, and I've not seen Furcolow say this before in other games. Has someone else?

Overall, the way Furcolow started his game was almost exactly the same as in Mafia Holographica as scum. Start with an anti-town reaction test, then disappear for about a day. To his credit, asking questions is less anti-town than shooting without provocation.

Tell me this, also: Do you expect I would have collaborated with my scumbuddies, if I had any, before posting?
Because I posted immediately.

Furcolow was also first to post in Mafia Holographica. In that game the scum had been talking before the game started, and they could've done that in this game too. Since the scum have no daytalk, Furcolow could not have collaborated with fellow scum after the day started anyway, and so it does not matter when he posted.

Well, I assumed they have daytalk. I forgot I even said that, but I won't backtrack on it. All I was saying was that I figured I would wait on some coaching, regardless of whether or not it came in-thread or out, if I was scum.

I didn't do that.

Furcolow did not do it in Mafia Holographica either, where the scum did have daytalk and coaching would've been possible off-thread. In that game, Furcolow shot at me six minutes after the day started. Coincidentally, that is exactly how long it took him to post in this game too. Lying about his meta to appear town is just horrible.

Actually this makes Fur amazingly likely to be town since scum would have known this, and probably pointed it out instead of saying "I just assumed scum have (full) daytalk".

I'm surprised by LlamaFluff taking this stance. Particularly after just recently finishing The Return to Liten, where both HackerHuck and MagnaofIllusion feigned ignorance of daytalk as scum. I saw that you noticed. ThAdmiral suspecting Furcolow over this made more sense to me, he was in that game too.

Next, a look at the scumhunting Furcolow has been doing.

She walls as town, and I have yet to see a wall from her.
Until I see a good, solid, town wall from her, I will be voting her.

Vote: PoisonIvy

This is bad, but at least it is a reason, and this is typical for Furcolow. Moving on.

I am going to put my vote on the first alphabetically to have not posted.

Not so typical any more in my opinion.

Nothing has really struck me as scummy other than not hearing from PoisonIvy.

I hate to have been competing wagons with her D1 two times in a row, perhaps I should self vote.

I am considering voting myself because it is detrimental to the town, but so is voting for me. I'm just going to have to trust in my own ability to scumhunt and pull off a win for the town.

Vote: PoisonIvy

for the reason of survival.

Worse and worse. Voting someone for survival is blatantly anti-town, and threatening to self vote is no better.

Well, I've seen her as town, and this is not her as town.
I do not want to have to claim, but my survival is good for the town.

Who said anything about claiming? Can you link me to the meta you refer to?

How is my linking to the game in which she was town and walling helpful if you're going to be away for 2 days? That's like saying "give me a way to help me paint her as scum or defend her making me appear town when I'm not" to me.

Vote: julienvonwolfe

Common sense says if you're going to use meta arguments, you should share that meta if asked. Not Furcolow though. Note that he never did share his meta. He was asked a second time, and again he refused, in #200. It was gonnano who found that game and posted the link.

It only goes downhill from here. Furcolow votes ThAdmiral, jmj3000 and gonnano without even giving reasons why. I'm used to Furcolow having poor reasons for his suspicions when he is town, but at least they are reasons, and here he has given barely any. He has played the martyr, appealed to emotions, used self-meta, derided the people on his wagon as sheep, and generally shown interest only in staying alive. He has dodged questions repeatedly, and often voiced suspicion of the people trying to question him. His random scumread of smargaret in #222 is particularly atrocious. I also don't like this one at all:

However, you have not been flailing and walling all over the thread, it feels more like you are getting coached and your wagon is getting deterred by Pappums Rat. I'm not pushing this as being a complete associative tell, as he really might have just wanted to flip flop three times in a row as town, but I view THAT as being way more anti-town if PoisonIvy flips scum (which I believe she will!)

Furcolow seems to have forgotten that pappums rat, aka my predecessor, only changed his vote once to PoisonIvy, and then back to Furcolow. Furcolow himself has been switching back and forth between PoisonIvy and other people three times. Of course, this is not so odd for him. I've seen Furcolow make 17 votes during a single day phase, on 7 different people.

But in my opinion, the very worst Furcolow has done this game is this:

Let's lynch DavidParker.

I'm perfectly fine with a DavidParker lynch.
I've been saying that all game.

*snip*

Very informative post. I was really null on you up until this point, congrats.

The first call for DavidParker to be lynched came out of nowhere. Furcolow had never said anything about suspecting him, or why. The second quote of "saying that all game" was simply not true, as Furcolow had mentioned it exactly once, without even voting. But the third quote takes the cake. It is the only time Furcolow has ever said anything about his read on DavidParker, and he still does not say whether he finds DavidParker town or scum. Anyway, if he had a null read on him until that point, his two calls to have DavidParker lynched don't add up. They don't make any sense, not even in Furcolow terms. This looks like an obvious scumslip, where Furcolow forgot which townies he had voiced suspicion of. I'd like to see him explain this, but I'm not holding my breath.

Short version of the above: Furcolow has shown more interest in self-preservation than scumhunting, his scumhunting has been exceptionally atrocious, and he has contradicted himself. Twice.

Vote: Furcolow

Now, some questions:

@Furcolow:

What the hell is this?

Can you give any excuses for your play? Can you explain your suspicions of smargaret, or any of the people you've voted without giving reason for it? And what is up with you wanting to lynch DavidParker, when according to your own words you did not even have a read on him?

And don't even think about pulling that "I don't cater to scum" shit to get out of answering. You've got a lot of explaining to do.

@Everyone else: Can you give any reason why Furcolow should not be lynched after all this?

[Feysal]

Hey, Furcolow... Remember these?

You know, instead of voting me, you guys could ask me things

I am here, ready to answer any question.
I don't see how I am dodging anything important.
If you feel smargaret is important, I guess we aren't on the same page, as I don't cater to scum.

When you were being wagoned, you wanted to be asked questions. However, when questions were asked, you kept dodging them and often called whoever questioned you scum, like smargaret in that above quote.

I was going to have to use the "you're just mad because I beat you as scum, so you are improperly riding my ass and viewing me in a different light than you were going to be" defense. Thanks for the defense, I don't even feel a need to post a detailed defense now.

Considering I'm in multiple games, and really split up my time terribly, having just read a Feysal-wall that wasn't meant to break the game but was really derived from a policy-lynch is completely different than I have seen out of him as town. I feel like it was scummy and ill-motivated. What do you think, bvoigt?

So, instead of the excuse you used to get out of answering smargaret, you're trying to use another.

And

you claim to suspect me in response. Exactly like I said in my case you've been doing.

Don't think I would not notice your use of rhetoric to try and discredit my case, by calling it "improperly riding your ass" and "derived from a policy-lynch". Your play in this game has been intensely scummy, and having seen your scum play, I strongly believe this is it. Your attempt to wriggle out of answering for your play is both pathetic and obvious.

Your accusation that I would be scum for not devoting my time and energy into breaking the game is ridiculous. I tried that in Mafia Holographica, but that was a heavily themed game with special mechanics that could be gamed. This game is much closer to normal mafia games, and trying to break this setup would be a colossal waste of time. Here I will hunt scum, and you are, by a wide margin, the scummiest person in the entire game.

Questions:

1. What caused the flip-flop in your attitude toward claiming? You started by vaguely role fishing, then spoke against claiming, then suggested claiming yourself.
2. Why did you lie about your meta? I've seen two cases where you used self-meta to try to appear town, when I have seen you behave exactly the same as scum. In fact, I have seen you behave that way only as scum.
3. Why do you believe smargaret is scum?
4. Why did you not give reasons for suspecting ThAdmiral, jmj3000 and gonnano when you voted them? Did you think it was reasonable to vote jmj3000 for not delivering, only two hours after his promise of content?
5. Why did you want DavidParker lynched? Why did you lie about saying that all game? If you wanted him lynched, why did you not vote him? How could you want him lynched when, according to your own words, you did not have a read on him?

I have no idea why other players have allowed you to get away with your play this long. I won't let the matter rest. I require answers, and I require them today. I won't be satisfied with you stalling for time, waiting for night so you can consult with fellow scum.

You said you were ready to answer any questions. I'm asking questions now, and I want your answers.

He could have just pointed out that scum did have daytalk, so it seems that he actually didn't know they had daytalk for 24 hours. I know you mentioned that Magna and HackerHuck faked something similar in a previous game, but MOI and HH are both experienced, outstanding players... I really don't see Furc gambitting like that.

I'm not really sold by this. What MoI and HH did was not much of a gambit, they just claimed not to know scum had daytalk. All Furcolow would have to do here is claim ignorance, and truth be told, Furcolow being ignorant would be completely natural. Even he would've understood that claiming knowledge that the scum had no daytalk would've looked bad in his position.

My suspicions and vote will stay. I still want to hear answers from Furcolow.

[Feysal]

First off, thanks for the ad hominem. Still resentful that I bested you as scum? I thought so.

What ad hominem?

Also, I count in your post three references to Mafia Holographica, and you are clearly trying to give the idea that I would only suspect you out of resentment from that game. This is untrue. I have mentioned in my case several things you have done and said in this game, explained why I find them scummy, and that is why I believe you are scum and want your death. I did bring up Mafia Holographica at the start of my case as a warning not to overlook scummy behavior from village idiots. I've seen some other players say they were keeping an eye on you, or that they were waiting to judge you on your future actions. That is a slippery slope I don't want to get on, having just seen how people irrationally kept believing you were town until the moment you killed them.

Anyways, on to your puny case. Smargaret is scum, if someone who is town wants to ask me questions (like I believe you are), I will answer them. I made the rest of my post, just to come back to this one. I knew this would take the most time, and I wanted to answer fully and not strawman.

The reason there is a difference between you and smargaret in terms of me responding is because I wasn't really sure about your slot. I am still not really sure about your alignment. The size of your posting screams town, but the wrathful-vengefulness of wanting to lynch someone for a prior finished game just doesn't suit you, Feysal.

Refusing to answer questions based on who is asking them is never wise. For one thing, you might be wrong with your suspicions, and not answering questions is simply anti-town. And by the way, I find it odd how your read of me has changed. Only yesterday you found me scummy, and tried to get support from bvoigt. In this post, you've said you believe I am town, and that you're still not really sure.

If you really, really believe that I'm scum trying to twist your words into something they're not, and out-rhetoric you linguistically or through my superior dialect, I guess you're not familiar with my scum play as much as you believe you are. That is the only explanation I can find other than you pursuing something you needed to do a game ago... not in this one.

You really don't think you've been acting scummy in this game, despite much of the town voting you for it?

1. What caused the flip-flop in your attitude toward claiming? You started by vaguely role fishing, then spoke against claiming, then suggested claiming yourself.

1)I am for nameclaiming, not countryclaiming. If we are going to claim, I want it to be fully. I do not like lukewarmth.
It is not a flip-flop to me, regardless of how others see this.

I can say that I'm positive that claiming either our names or nationalities this early would be a bad idea. Also, this really was not the impression I got when you spoke against claiming. You said you did not believe we should say where we are from, not like you wanted us to go further and claim our names too.

2. Why did you lie about your meta? I've seen two cases where you used self-meta to try to appear town, when I have seen you behave exactly the same as scum. In fact, I have seen you behave that way only as scum.

2) I did not feel I was lying about my meta. I guess YOU know MY meta more than ME? Is that what you're implying? Because I'm not buying it. In fact, I'm not buying

anything

you're selling. Your questions feel weighted, forced, and a day late and a dollar short.

First off, using self-meta is never a good idea. It is worthless at best, and scummy at worst. And apparently I do know your meta better than you do, since I could link to two of your recent posts where you, as scum, either acted exactly the same as you claimed to act as town, or acted the way you claimed you would not act as scum. You were at the very least misleading in your use of self-meta, if not outright lying.

3. Why do you believe smargaret is scum?

3) I have explained that it is just a suspicion. Why do you care? NachoMamma/ScottBrosius/myself/I'm sure other people are just gut-style suspicious of her. I don't feel like she is adequately scumhunting, and I feel she is fishing for good easy bandwagons and is trying to drive a mislynch by stroking the fire. Her comments scream caps lawkz, and her tone is faked and doesn't feel town to me. I don't know how else to explain it. I'll admit it is weak, and it might just be personal bias.

It was your timing. The first time you called smargaret scum was when you refused to answer her. You had answered her questions before, and you had said nothing about suspecting her. That made it look like a horrible excuse to avoid answering.

Time to look at the timeline. The last time you mentioned smargaret before calling her scum was in #130, and I can see no trace of suspicion there. Then you called her scum in #222. There were only three posts by smargaret between those two posts, and I see nothing in them that would justify your flip on her.

Your reasons for suspecting smargaret just scream misrep. How can you say she is not adequately scumhunting, when you have voted

all

the people she has, and usually after her? How is she fishing for easy bandwagons, when she was never on the PoisonIvy wagon, which you tried to push with such desperation? Do you see a single instance of CAPS LOCK in her ISO? I don't agree with you at all.

4. Why did you not give reasons for suspecting ThAdmiral, jmj3000 and gonnano when you voted them? Did you think it was reasonable to vote jmj3000 for not delivering, only two hours after his promise of content?

4) I did provide reasoning for voting gonnano, even if I voted him RVS style at one point. You must not have really read my ISO or my posts in context. I unvoted ThAdmiral, and have even been defending him since that point. His response to my pressure-vote was adequate in proving to me he is likely town - he doesn't post like that when I've seen him as scum. I am very familiar with his play. My vote on jmj is because he is actively lurking and promising when he isn't delivering. I'm more than willing to replace my vote on him on D2, or even to tack it on to him if the Amrun wagon dies out... he could easily be scum with all the excuses he has been dishing out.

I like to hear reasons for votes when they are made, not after the fact. That said, I should have a closer look at all three of them before commenting any more.

5. Why did you want DavidParker lynched? Why did you lie about saying that all game? If you wanted him lynched, why did you not vote him? How could you want him lynched when, according to your own words, you did not have a read on him?

5) Just because I vote someone, or say I want them lynched, doesn't mean that is even the case. Hence why I've said my admiral vote was a "pressure-vote", my DavidParker FoSs were more pressure-FoSs, when I really had a null read on him. I have no idea as to his alignment. Since then, I've been leaning town, but I'm not really positive. He could easily be scum having fooled me.

Saying you want someone lynched out of the blue really is not an effective way of pressuring them. You just made yourself look like a fool, and when you said you had no read on him you made yourself look scummy. There are right ways and wrong ways of getting reads, and this way was definitely wrong.

Well, I got some answers. I can't say I'm satisfied with them, and I continue to consider you scummy. However, I recognize the town is unwilling to lynch you yet, and so I'll look elsewhere.

[Feysal]

I think I'm done with Furcolow for the time being, so it is time I gave a closer look at the other major wagon of today, PoisonIvy/Amrun.

As I was reading through the thread for the first time, I thought PoisonIvy's comments on the setup were strange, but not necessarily scummy. I tried to get some meta on her, but there was not much to go on. First off, her wiki says she is an alt of someone, and I have no idea who. The fact that the alt account is over a year old suggests experience, and I have trouble understanding why she would think this setup had any resemblance with the one she played on LiveWire. I'd love to ask, but too late for that. I also found that other Cold War game she was talking about. The setting was about KGB infiltrators in the CIA HQ at Langley, and there indeed was a miller. Since she is no longer here this is not very helpful, but at least it is an explanation for where that miller bit in her first post came from.

Upon rereading, I actually find her entry posts townish. Not because of what she said, but how she said it. She was careless, completely unguarded, which I find to be a townish trait. I think the scum response to such questions would be more reserved and gauged.

Reading on, I found posts #165 and #179 to be very townish on first readthrough, and still think so after an ISO read. At the time PoisonIvy was close to being lynched, and I see no scum flailing in her reaction. Instead she took the effort to put together her reads and post them. I particularly liked her meta read of Furcolow in #179, I thought it was spot on. This is the reaction of a townie who expects to die. She in fact endorses her own lynch in #232, believing her flip would shed more light on the players on her wagon, though the wagon was dwindling by that time.

Amrun, when she replaces in, gives me a null feeling. I don't think the points made against her posts are enough to condemn her. I see the slot as town, oddly enough because of PoisonIvy, not in spite of.

That's that. I still have ThAdmiral and jmj3000 on my to-do list of ISO reads. I noticed Artem saying jmj3000 was referring to the same problems as in this thread in other games, but I like to see for myself.

Speaking of being ill, I seem to be coming down with a fever myself. Hopefully nothing too serious, but it could have an impact on my activity if it gets worse.

[Feysal]

2. Why did you lie about your meta? I've seen two cases where you used self-meta to try to appear town, when I have seen you behave exactly the same as scum. In fact, I have seen you behave that way only as scum.

2) I did not feel I was lying about my meta. I guess YOU know MY meta more than ME? Is that what you're implying? Because I'm not buying it. In fact, I'm not buying

anything

you're selling. Your questions feel weighted, forced, and a day late and a dollar short.

First off, using self-meta is never a good idea. It is worthless at best, and scummy at worst. And apparently I do know your meta better than you do, since

I could link to two of your recent posts where you, as scum, either acted exactly the same as you claimed to act as town, or acted the way you claimed you would not act as scum

. You were at the very least misleading in your use of self-meta, if not outright lying.

Could you pls? I would be interested in seeing these.

I already did in my Furcolow case, here they are again:

I like early-game reaction-tests

as town

, PoisonIvy.

Emphasis by me. Furcolow started Mafia Holographica by shooting at me, which he explained as a reaction test here. I've not seen him do reaction tests as town, though admittedly I only have one ongoing game for reference, and I should look up more games with town Furcolow to see if there is any truth to his claim. At the very least, him claiming that he likes them as town is at least misleading.

Well, I assumed they have daytalk. I forgot I even said that, but I won't backtrack on it. All I was saying was that I figured

I would wait on some coaching, regardless of whether or not it came in-thread or out, if I was scum

.

I didn't do that.

Again, emphasis by me. In Mafia Holographica the scum had daytalk, which would've made coaching possible, but Furcolow did not wait and shot at me immediately on the first day here. In this case Furcolow was just lying, since he acted the opposite to what he said he would as scum.

[Feysal]

@Everyone

- If you are not voting for one of Thad, Amrun (PI) or moth (jmj) in your next post, explain in depth why all three are beyond a doubt town. This is the point in the game where stuff needs to happen, we have three big wagons and absolutely zero reason for people not to be on one them.

Have to agree. Time to make up my mind.

I already covered PoisonIvy/Amrun in my last post. I think she is town, I won't be supporting that wagon.

As for jmj3000/mothrax, since we just got a replacement, I'd prefer to give him a chance. Also, I searched for jmj's recent posts, and found out he has really not been active on the site. He replaced into another game a while back, and in his third post he requested replacement, since he could not handle two games at once. That is when his flaking in this game began. Contrary to what ThAdmiral said in #588, I don't find he has been very active on other forums either, and when it comes to mafia games, the issue is not having time to post but having time to read. The evidence suggests that whatever troubles he was referring to were real, and him actually replacing out invalidates the accusation that he was scum because of stalling. The slot could be scum despite him replacing out, but not because of it.

Ok, I have gotten too far behind in this game. I have been trying to catch up, but each time I get 1 step forward, I fall two steps back.

Mod: Please replace me, as me being so far behind is going to hurt the fun of everyone else in the game.

Can we just lynch this slot before a replacement comes in and everyone forgets how scummy JMJ was?? A replacement at this point will be a fresh start more or less and I'm not happy with that.

I'm not happy with this. When jmj3000 replaced out, it should've been obvious that he was genuinely flaking instead of stalling for time, and since that was pretty much all DavidParker found him scummy for, I don't like him continuing to push a case that just went down the drain. All that is left to suspect jmj3000 for is that he made a random vote despite having suspects. I find that slightly suspect, but really not lynch worthy.

That leaves ThAdmiral. I did an ISO read of him, and actually got a scummy feeling from him. On my first read I thought it was really odd how Nachomamma8 called him scum with no explanation, and suddenly people agreed with him. I think I get it now. In addition to what others have said, I find him and Furcolow flip flopping on each other to be most curious, particularly how they both claimed the other was town due to meta.

I looked through some of their games, the ones ThAdmiral posted and more. ThAdmiral was scum and Furcolow was town in two games, The Lies of Locke Lamora and Rivertown Mafia. In one of them Furcolow was fooled by ThAdmiral, in the other he was not, so I'm really not putting much stock in Furcolow's claim of being able to read him. Instead, I think they might have been distancing. They both voted the other, and quickly unvoted for meta reasons.

For the record, my attempt of getting a meta read of ThAdmiral by looking at his past games was a waste of time. Well, almost. I did come across some things worthy of note.

ive done that on my alt
i dont do that on this
this is my VI account
get over it

Furcolow, you

are

a village idiot. You

know

you are a village idiot. You have

admitted

that you are a village idiot. It is also because you are a village idiot that you are still alive, anyone else would've been lynched for the things you've said and done today. So you can drop the act of being all hurt, accusing me and InflatablePie of ad hominem for calling you that.

Other things I found were an example of Furcolow using a reaction test as town, in Rivertown Mafia, where he false claimed miller as explained here. Apparently he does do reaction tests as town too. Oh, and I chanced upon a rather hilarious anti-Furcolow tirade by boberz in Ohne Mafia here. Not very relevant to this game, but I was getting the same scummy feeling reading Furcolow in Ohne Mafia as here.

This just is ADMISSION you're trying to get mislynches, and that you are going to bandwagon.
I am ever-so-more suspicious of you, Feysal, but I'm happy with where my vote is right now. I could easily get on the biggest bandwagon of ThAdmiral. I don't believe I'm going to do that.

It is recognition of the fact that you're not getting lynched today, and so I should look for scum elsewhere, fool. I'm not of any use to the town if I tunnel on you.

Feysal in his #560 defends Amrun/PI's play, expect to see a hop onto the ThAdmiral wagon from him. Very possible that he is buddying as scum here.

Or I could just be confident in my townread on her. And I won't be scared out of voting ThAdmiral by you. I think that he is the most likely wagon to be scum, and in fact your partner. There have been so many times ThAdmiral has made excuses for you this game.

Vote: ThAdmiral

[Feysal]

@ Feysal - a few things you should know:
1. Lies of locke lamora was mine and Furc's first game together so it really shouldn't be a surprise he didn't know my meta then (I think it was also the first game I played since I came back after a break as well). Since then we've played together in at least 2 or 3 other games. As you mentioned he picked me correctly as scum in rivertown recently, and picked me correctly as town (albeit not at first) in frenzy mafia. I linked to it earlier in this game so you can check it out if you want.

I know, I think I found all the games you've played together, though I did not look too deeply at them all. I actually thought Frenzy Mafia was ongoing, there was nothing on the first page to indicate the game was over. I checked it now, and discovered that Furcolow was the last person voting you until you used your one-shot ability to have yourself mod confirmed as town to him. That really does not inspire confidence in his ability to read your meta, and I would not put my faith into Furcolow's reads over my own anyway, no matter what I thought his alignment was. Besides, I don't think meta reads are ever really reliable. I tried to get a meta read on you anyway, against my better judgment, and it was really not very helpful.

2. The comment about Furcolow and his "VI account" is an understandable misrepresentation, as it caused similar confusion in the game it first appeared in. He was referring to his account in which he was hydra-ing with and learning from the (well-known and excellent) mafia player Vi. It does NOT refer to an account were he plays as a Village Idiot.

I actually knew this, I read that game a bit further and found the explanation. My point was not that he would purposely play like a village idiot, it was that he had admitted to being one. I guess I should've posted the quote where he was explicit about it, this one:

I'm not "on a VI account for the sake of being on a VI account"
i was referring to this being my main account, and

me being a VI

I am also Hydra-ing with Vi, who is a good player, who is teaching me on an alt-hydra-account
therefore, this, my normal account, is my "vi account" even if it is not an "alt account for a vi"

Since Furcolow seems to agree that he is a village idiot, I don't like him accusing people of ad hominem for calling him that.

Other than the flip flopping between furc and I is there anything else you actually find scummy? Or are you just another one of those people who are agreeing with Nacho for no reason?

Bad though it may look, I'll have to get back to you on this. I'd have to do another ISO read of you and write a longer post, and I don't have the time right now. Later tonight, hopefully.

[Feysal]

ok, as scum, the first thing i noticed he does (in verona mafia) is ask really lilting toned questions, as seen here:

What is this Verona Mafia you speak of? I could only find a game from years ago on another forum by that name, and I saw no Amrun there. She is a very new player on this site, and I could only find a single newbie game she had completed, and two that are ongoing, so what are you talking about?

[Feysal]

Other than the flip flopping between furc and I is there anything else you actually find scummy? Or are you just another one of those people who are agreeing with Nacho for no reason?

Bad though it may look, I'll have to get back to you on this. I'd have to do another ISO read of you and write a longer post, and I don't have the time right now. Later tonight, hopefully.

Okay, time to do this.

Part of why I find ThAdmiral scummy is his interactions with Furcolow, which is why I would prefer Furcolow dying first. However, even before Furcolow flipping it looks odd to me how ThAdmiral starts making excuses for Furcolow immediately, like so:

Furcolow is improving. So I think this is a bit unfair.

I think he's doing alright tbh.
I've seen him play a lot worse than this, and that is why he is a policy lynch to a lot of people.

Other things:
1. My spidey sense says Furcolow is town.
2. GhostWriter's reference to his wiki in post #27 is a lie. He says he's undefeated as scum, but he's clearly not.
3. smargaret is giving me town pings but that's pretty slim right now. Also, JMJ's comment "no hard feelings" earlier struck me as suspicious as well.

1. Yep.
2. Good pick up.
3. I'm actually getting scum tingles from smargaret.

After this comes the flip with Furcolow. Sathoris pointed out the scum could talk for 24 hours before the game started, and in response ThAdmiral voted Furcolow, since this made him look bad. I'm fine with this, but what happens between #113 and #140 looks odd to me. During the 14 hours between those posts Furcolow threw a fit of panic and voted PoisonIvy for survival. This got him a town read from ThAdmiral, and he has stuck to that ever since. Moving on...

Oh noes, disapproval!
She was laughingly trying to make it seem like Furc was saying that the pro-town thing was to vote him, whereas he was making a point about certainty and uncertainty. It was a massive reach.

smargaret criticized Furcolow in #78, ThAdmiral disapproved with part of it in #92, RedCoyote disapproved of that in #117, and ThAdmiral responded with the above quote. I thought smargaret was criticizing Furcolow for his reaction test, but I can see the side ThAdmiral is taking here too. I don't think it was that big a deal though, and smargaret certainly was not laughing about it. And still in the same post, ThAdmiral said this:

Is a good pick up: "Hey, haven't I seen you before? I remember, it was in my dreams!"?

What ThAdmiral called a good pick up in #105 really was not that good, it should've been obvious GhostWriter had made up his responses. Making a joke of it does not change that it was bad, and trying to laugh it off after calling smargaret out for "laughingly" criticizing Furcolow does not help any. Again in #156 ThAdmiral made light of Nachomamma8 calling him scum.

It is if you are town.

Actually, I believe the pro-town move in this situation would be for Furcolow to try to find scum, not to just push any wagon that isn't his. Especially since we've still got weeks until the deadline.

But I'm just saying him voting the other leading wagon is not necessarily anti-town if he is indeed town. Especially since often when there is competing wagons one is town and one is scum.

ThAdmiral however has been giving me bad vibes throughout. Don't actually know why

Maybe because of recent statements from other players expressing negative opinions of you, you figure he's an easy counterwagon to yours? Seriously people, look at this quote. This is just AWFUL.

Yeah this is classic "keep counterwagon options open" scum-talk. (not what you said, what PoisonIvy said)

Nothing up to now has been that scummy, except for the absence of scumhunting and for not helping the game along, but this post I have a more serious problem with. Earlier ThAdmiral called Furcolow's vote for survival pro-town behavior "if you are town". Furcolow did not even try to justify his vote with anything else, and he got a town read. However, PoisonIvy does not get equal treatment. She could be town too, she could want to survive too, but for her to even hint at another potential wagon is a scumtell. This reeks of a double standard. Furcolow gets town points for wanting to live, PoisonIvy gets scum points for even hinting at it. If I had to name a single post that suggests Furcolow and ThAdmiral being in the same scum team, this is it.

This was only the tenth post by ThAdmiral. Then there is more of defending Furcolow for not wanting to die in #209, and criticizing PoisonIvy in #238. I really wonder how no one else thought her reaction to pressure was very townish, she got her final reads out and seemed to accept she would be lynched. I can see no flailing from her at this time, and I don't like her being called a drama queen for endorsing her own lynch. ThAdmiral calls it scummy how GhostWriter is not scumhunting in #277, but I don't see him doing much of that either. Or sharing opinions, which he asks of Lowell in #293.

After this it continues pretty much the same. There is very little in the way of scumhunting, and more of defending himself once the wagon on him started to really take off. Nothing that would stand out as that scummy, but no improvement either.

I knew this would become a long post, but these were the things I found scummy. Some details I noticed only on this readthrough though.

[Feysal]

Anyway - I think me and Furc are on the same team. The town team. I already explained why I think Furc is town based on meta and our previous games together. I don't see what is so hard to understand/scummy about that.

Perhaps it is the frequency with which you've made excuses for his play, starting from your first post. Also, I think meta is a very weak reason to defend another player, particularly someone as unstable as Furcolow. I also think that he is acting according to his scum meta, just like you described it:

As town he seems to be more active, seems to more actively participate in scum hunting and questioning, has larger posts and generally seems to be more involved in the game. He also is more likely to claim that someone is town in his eyes.
As scum his posts are shorter, he seems to throw out a lot more one liners that don't really push things forward but rather comment mildly on what is going on, he generally goes after softer targets, like inactives, or pursues weak cases that he doesn't bother explaining all that well. He also is more likely to claim someone is scum in his eyes.

I don't agree on the activity part, Furcolow is active regardless of alignment. In Ohne Mafia, as scum, he had more posts over a shorter period of time than here. I can't say I've seen him give many town reads, but he has thrown scum accusations left and right, especially at people who were on his wagon or who suspect him. He has also given weak or no explanations for his suspects, and his latest accusation of Stephoscope is a prime example of a weak case on a soft target, his accusation being almost pure OMGUS because Stephoscope agreed with my case on him.

It looks to me as if Furcolow's play here fits your description of his scum meta much better than his town meta. I have trouble understanding how you could see it otherwise, unless you're scum with him. Nevertheless, it is not because of meta that I believe he is scum, it is his actions I wrote a case of, and I consider Furcolow far too unstable for his meta to clear him in any way.

She soooo was being a drama queen. And I soooo have been sharing my opinions on tonnes of stuff this game.

If you think she was, then what about Furcolow and his threat to self-vote? It is from things like this that I began to suspect that double standard.

This is bang on the money. I felt there was something weak/wrong/bad about the cases on me for a while now but couldn't quite put my finger on it, but this is it.

You know what? I agree the case on you is weak. In my post I tried to explain what I found scummy about you, but apart from the double standard thing, there was nothing major, just many little things I interpreted as scummy with nothing on the other side of the scale. If it were not for the stuff about Furcolow, I would have much less reason to suspect you. Of course I would prefer Furcolow to die first, but since the town seems unwilling, you are my second best choice. I believe Amrun is town, mothrax is mostly null, and to me you look scummier than either of them.

I have to admit though that mothrax/jmj3000 looks scummier after Artem posted some more meta on him, and mothrax not posting after Thursday does not help. I'm willing to switch to him, and the longer he delays, the better I am going to feel about that.

Back to Furcolow:

I agree the game sorely needs a claim.

That's fascinating, because we were talking about a lynch, not a claim.

Please note that I was responding to RedCoyote's post 585 in particular, and in that post he discusses the need for a claim.

I don't really like this post from Stephoscope. It is very defensive.

No, it is not. RedCoyote did say the game needed a claim. Stephoscope was replying to that post when he agreed on that. His response to LMP is fine. He has posted too little for me to have a read on him, but a case this feeble does not influence my read of him, except maybe positively if Furcolow flips scum.

I know talking to me can be like talking to a wall, when it comes to middle ground, but are you positive you won't rectify your position and situation with me? I am pretty sure that the only reason you would be setting me up like I've seen from you this game is that you would want to mislynch me easily as scum after lurking through Day 1 as the Godfather with little or no suspicions put onto you whatsoever.

Why do you keep assuming only scum would have reason to suspect you? This post makes your vote look like an OMGUS. And where the hell did you get Godfather from? Are you just making this stuff up?

I am also for claiming. Like say I was a Bulletproof, what would that do to the setup? I have also heard of this role being called a Veteran. If I was a Veteran, and had two night lives, it might be wise to claim and setup a circle if there were direct ways of directing via whispering/personal messages. I do not see us having that ability here, so it might not be safe to put all of our pieces out on the table yet.

I was considering claiming Veteran publicly, but I am going to just sit back for now.

What are you doing? This looks like you are just feeling out whether it is safe to false claim Veteran, or possibly role fishing again. Seriously, was there a point to any of what you said here?

[Feysal]

Vote: Artem

He's too town to be town

And I thought your cases could not get any worse after that Stephoscope vote. I stand corrected. This is the single stupidest reason to vote someone I have ever seen in my mafia career. Anyone else wondering, it should be clear that Furcolow indeed meant Artem and not Amrun. The pronoun "he", the description of him being "too town", the defense of ThAdmiral, the meta... all of that is Artem.

DavidParker voting Artem may have been in error though.

I'm actually bulletproof, but if you mean town as in on the side of the townies, then yeah, I guess I am.

You

guess

you are town?

Well, it helps have someone for the town to help out through providing lynch targets.
Also, if the scum want to waste 2 nights killing Furcolow, that is very good for the town.

Let me get this straight: you're under the impression that claiming bulletproof would somehow confirm you as town, so you would be allowed to lead the town and pick lynch targets for us? Targets like Artem? Dream on.

I have seen that it is a smart claim day 1, as when it is incorporated it is generally good to lead the town, as scum won't be able to silence you after only one night. That's just personal preference.

I'd rather you go ahead and tell me now why it was a bad idea. The thing is, though, I can't be sure you're not scum! You could be purposefully misleading me on my quest of scumhunting.

Actually, claiming bulletproof is one of the stupidest things you can do in this game. It does not automatically confirm you and enable you to lead the town. Also, claiming is not necessary for the role to work. If you did not claim, the scum might try to kill you and fail, and that would enable someone else to survive that night. If you do claim, scum will not even try to kill you, and they will successfully kill someone else. In short, if you claim bulletproof, the ability is wasted.

False

claiming bulletproof on the other hand is worthwhile, if you can get away with it. Town can try it as a gambit, to fool the scum into not killing you. Scum can try it as a gambit, to fool a vigilante not to kill you, and to give an explanation why the scum keeps leaving you alive.

I don't believe your claim. I think you are trying to bluff, because you're afraid of being vigged tomorrow night. Your so-called scumhunting is appalling, your behavior anti-town. You need to die. Someone who makes cases like the one you made on Artem cannot possibly be allowed to survive into endgame. And that is good, because I believe you are scum.

[Feysal]

This seems to be getting out of hand. I'm writing a longer post in defense of Amrun, and to give a sneak preview, the gist of it is that

she is town

. PoisonIvy stumbled, now Amrun stumbled with her claim, and this has become a mislynch waiting to happen. I would stake my reputation on that, I am that convinced.

[Feysal]

Amrun has claimed Senator Joseph McCarthy, US nationality, town silencer. I believe her. I am so convinced in fact that I will try to defend her, so we might actually lynch scum today.

I've already covered PoisonIvy/Amrun earlier in my post #560. What I said then I believe still. PoisonIvy stumbled badly with her setup speculation, but her reaction to being wagoned was a major towntell. She took the effort to post her reads, such as they were, and prepared to die. This is the reaction of a townie who does not believe she can avert her mislynch. Also, the way she was completely unguarded when answering the setup question reads as town to me, though this is less strong. I believe scum would've been more reserved.

I can understand perfectly how PoisonIvy arrived to the conclusion that the setup was US versus Soviets. She referred to another Cold War game on LiveWire, which I found here. McCarthy was a very prominent role in that game, a confirmed innocent doublevoter, and I can see PoisonIvy being reminded of that game by her role here. That game also contained a miller, which she expected this game to have. The setup of that game was US versus Soviets, and since PoisonIvy did not know any better, she thought that could be the setup here as well. Think about it: she was armed only with knowledge of her own role. She knew she was US and town. She could not have known that the town consisted of other nationalities as well, and her simple setup theory was entirely plausible in light of what she knew. On the other hand, I'm positive that the scum would know more about the setup, and her theory only makes sense to me if she was part of the uninformed majority. Scum would have known better.

Amrun made a mess of her claim, but throughout that ordeal she reads as town to me. It is obvious she made a mistake confusing MacArthur and McCarthy, but I don't find that mistake scummy. Her clumsy way of defending herself reads as inexperienced town to me, not at all like flailing scum.

My win-con is "you win when all the threats to the peace are dead" or something along those lines. This is what makes me doubt Soviet vs. US despite my role. I think most likely is town (US), Soviet (mafia), other nationalities (third party), since Fuzzyman's slot claimed another nationality. Still, this is not for sure. Why hasn't Fuzzyman's slot received more pressure for this scummy statement? I just don't get it. I tried to put more pressure on and somehow got portrayed as scum for doing so.

If it was not obvious yet from the comments in the thread, there are several non-US townies in this game. That is why Fuzzyman's statement could be true, and him having another nationality is not suspicious. The non-US townies also know perfectly well that the setup is not US versus Soviets, because their own roles don't fit into that theory.

@Feysal: I do appreciate the support, but I don't know what good it will do at this point.

Neither do I, but I've got to try. I don't stand by and let my townreads be lynched, not when they are this strong.

@Everyone on the Amrun wagon: Please consider what I wrote above. Where you see scummy behavior, I see a newbie townie who has slipped and become mislynch material. I am convinced she is town. I am not convinced that ThAdmiral is scum, but I consider him the most likely scum of our three wagons. mothrax I have a null read on.

And if you are not satisfied with either of those wagons over Amrun, there is always Furcolow. His latest vote on Artem for being too town clearly shows that he cannot be trusted.

Furcolow must die.

[Feysal]

That was a close one... pity that a governor ability was needed.

If I had to name one player whose votes we could do without, it is Furcolow. But then, I would prefer him lynched rather than silenced.

Oh, and something about flavor I've been thinking about... while I agree that some roles are more likely to be scum flavor-wise, I don't think we can trust that blindly. Flavor is no substitute for scumhunting. Roles as different as John F Kennedy and Richard Nixon might be just as likely to be scum. Until we get more information from flips, I am going to be looking at the way people have played, not at the flavor.

[Feysal]

Only now I see that bvoigt did not really hammer. That's the second time I've seen that move, and again I did not spot it.

We have two more suggestions brought forward, EGL and gonnano. I haven't looked closely at either one yet, but I will. EGL is the best case Furcolow has made this game, and though that is not saying much, it does not look half bad.

JOHN F KENNEDY IS NO SCUM YOU BASTARD

I did not say he was, I was only making a point about flavor being unreliable until we see a few flips.

This really reads as scum knowing that Amrun is scum and trying to get town points for it. "That was a close one...." really rubs me the wrong way.

I've heard comments like this every time I've defended someone. In Mafia Holographica it resulted in a townie tunneling on me for the entire game, and we lost.

You rarely see scum admit to being scum, even in twilight. Feysal's post reads as more certainty than a town member should have in my opinion.

I was already confident in Amrun being town before her reaction to being "hammered", that was why I was defending her in the first place. Think whatever you like, I was getting a strong newbie town read.

I dislike Feysal's silly wrathful pushing, and his wanting me silenced. I have freedom of speech. If my vote is taken away, it will only make me louder.

I keep pushing you because I believe you are scum. If I can't get you lynched, I'd prefer to have you silenced more than anyone else, since your voting record is worse than anyone else's. Your vote on Artem was beyond bad. I would not be sorry at all if you were prevented from making more of such votes.

There is no way we can be burning Fahrenheit 451, Guy Montag.

This is the second time I've seen you refer to that book. Why?

We really should test the governor claim by getting 12 votes on Amrun before anything else.

Why is this necessary to do now? We can test that claim any time on some useless lurker.

No. Wrong answer. This is not the setup. Die scum die.

Town can be defined as the uninformed majority, key word being uninformed. Why would being wrong about the setup be a scumtell?

[Feysal]

Because it's pretty obvious to me that country does not have any impact on what faction you are.
And if I'm wrong and it does, then obviously he should die.

Obvious to you perhaps, not to her. If she was US and town, how should she know what other nationalities the town consists of? How should she know what nationalities the threats to the peace consist of? She had less information to work with than the non-US townies, and her theory was plausible given what she knew. On the other hand, if you were someone like Charles de Gaulle or Josip Broz Tito, you would of course know that the setup was not US versus Soviets, and you would not be jumping to a conclusion that the game was French versus Yugoslavians either.

[Feysal]

So basically you are lying scum, right? If anyone needs a bullet tonight it's you.

For everyone who didn't notice:

Amrum has not been governered, and llama is to be killed asap. Put votes back on amrum.

Okay, now I'm really disappointed. Are you aware that Furry is an alt of LlamaFluff? Aka the player who, in The Return to Liten, faked a double vote on me to prompt a claim from me? You were there, you saw it happen.

If I had to guess, LlamaFluff probably spotted that it was not a real hammer and added that governor bit to stop anyone from hammering for real. Or, he was looking for reactions to the claim. Either way, having been on the receiving end of one of his gambits, I say this is not something to lynch him over.

@Feysal, question from 34:
Fahrenheit 451 is the temperature at which Soviet literature would have been burning at in America, or vice versa. It is the heat at which books burn, as far as I know, and a good book which I'm sure you know.

I do know, I've read it. What I don't know is why it would be relevant to this game. The Cold War was not the theme of the book. It was about a dystopian future, where the United States have degenerated into a nation of apathetic idiots due to a ban of books and reading.

All

books, not just Soviet ones, from the Bible to Mein Kampf. The fire department incinerated them all whereever they could find them.

By the way, the autoignition point of paper varies depending on source, in Wikipedia it is 218-450°C, or 424-842°F.

I like this post from ThAd. I mean, I REALLY like this post. I was starting to be less sure of him, but this pressure on LlamaFluff is good, considering he was the only person I saw EGL buddying up with that could be his scum partner. Amrun/EGL/LlamaFluff wouldn't surprise me.

That is funny, because I don't. This reaction is completely different to what I've seen from ThAd before.

I'm currently in the process of catching up with all of my games, and I'll ISO read gonnano after I finish. Other games need my attention more urgently right now.

[Feysal]

I just caught up on the past five pages. First of all...

Unvote: ThAdmiral

Kissinger is a controversial character, but still a Nobel Peace Prize winner. For the time being, I'm inclined to believe ThAdmiral is town. I don't know what information DavidParker can have on that, but as long as he explains it later I can take his word on that.

So, to summarize claims, Furcolow has claimed Heydar Aliyev, Soviet bulletproof, Amrun has claimed Joseph McCarthy, US blacklister, and ThAdmiral has claimed Henry Kissinger, US townie. Bunnylover has claimed ...nothing.

Fuzzyman claimed a third nationality. Care to elaborate with flavor? (Keep the role to yourself, though, obviously.)

Would it be better if I name claimed/nationality claimed now?

That's what I asked you to do earlier.

Frankly I am confused as to why my person is even in the game. I have no idea what his involvement is in the Cold War or leading up to the Cold War.
I think name claiming would just be best =/.

Considering that he was asked for his name and nationality a while back and the votes are piling up, I think it is time to claim those things. I don't think claiming the actual role is necessary yet.

It's one thing for a PM to say "You're [insert non-US/Soviet nationality here] and you're town", it's another for it to also state "...and there are other town-aligned players of varying nationalities". Besides, in that same quote, JVW mentions "the rules regarding nationality and alignment are in the first post", so...

Like smargaret said, it should be easy to deduce that the town must consist of several nationalities if you are neither from the US or the USSR. If you're someone like Dag Hammarskiöld, you don't assume that the town consists of only Swedes.

However, I'm not sure about this slip. The quote from julienvonwolfe made more sense in context. DavidParker had said that his role PM "made it rather clear" that the town consisted of different nationalities. EGL said that his role PM did not "explicitly state" this. So far this looks like DavidParker is non-US, and that he deduced that the town has to consist of more nationalities than his. EGL did not get this, he apparently thought that DavidParker had been explicitly told of other nationalities in his role PM. Then julienvonwolfe said that he had not been explicitly told this either. It could be true, if he interpreted it so that his role PM did not literally say that there were other nationalities.

I'm not sure what to do at this point, but I'm sure we need a name and nationality from Bunnylover. I'll read more tomorrow.

@Llama, RedCoyote, Feysal, ThAdmiral, Amrun, InflatablePie, EGL, Scott Brosius: Give me your reads on DP pls.

Probable town, though I should take a closer look. My read of him has fluctuated a lot, but after his reaction to Amrun's claim, I'm back at believing he is town, and one scummy comment is not enough to convince me otherwise. If you want a more in depth answer that will also have to wait.

Preview edit: I see Bunnylover claimed while I was writing this. I'll think about this tomorrow. Leaving my vote unused for now.

[Feysal]

@Feysal: You might have missed it, but I did claim in my previous post.

Ernesto Guevara, Cuban Roleblocker.

I did not miss it. I saw it in preview, but did not change what I'd already written.

I looked up some information on Che Guevara, and what I found was most interesting. He was a central figure in the Cuban Missile Crisis, the single worst incident during the Cold War. He was a leading member of the Cuban delegation visiting Moscow that recommended Soviet missiles being placed in Cuba. After the crisis had been resolved, Guevara is reported to have said that if the missiles had been under Cuban control during the crisis, they would have been fired against targets in the US. He also said that the cause of socialist liberation would have been worth the possibility of millions of atomic war victims. Extremely bad stuff.

It does not end there however. After this incident Guevara began to denounce the Soviet bloc, and became estranged from the Cuban leadership he had belonged to. Eventually he resigned from all of his positions, renounced his honorary Cuban nationality, and left to participate in other revolutions.

Basically, the Che Guevara from the Cuban Missile Crisis would be one of the worst threats to peace imaginable, but in light of his later rift with the Soviets, I have trouble seeing him allied with anyone. The fact that Bunnylover gave his nationality as Cuban instead of Soviet also suggests this. The role sounds like it could be third party more than anything else.

I read julienvonwolfe's posts again, and I'm even less sure of the slip now. When comparing what he was saying in posts #76 and #122, it looks like there was a misunderstanding. Like EGL, julienvonwolfe seems to have thought that DavidParker had claimed that his role PM said explicitly that the town consisted of several nationalities. His did not, and he voted DavidParker because he did not see why any town role PM would contain that information, since it was already covered by the rules. Later, after DavidParker explained that his role PM implied other nationalities without being explicit, julienvonwolfe seems to have realized his misunderstanding.

If I've traced julienvonwolfe's thought process correctly, it suggests town to me. Fuzzyman's openness in revealing he was neither Soviet or US was also townish, though this is a WIFOM argument. For Bunnylover, the only thing mildly suspicious is how he delayed revealing his role. It could also be seen as hypocritical of him to think MacArthur and McCarthy would be scum roles given what Guevara did during the Cuban Missile Crisis, except he claimed not to know what Guevara had to do with the Cold War. He also revealed being a roleblocker, which is a scum role so often that town might be more likely to actually claim it. Another WIFOM argument. Damn this is a messy case.

At this point I'd actually favor another lynch. I checked mothrax's activity, and noticed that he has been posting in another game this week, but not here. He even signed up for another game, so having time does not seem to be the issue with his activity. I know we're running out of time, and I have no real arguments to defend Bunnylover with, but I can't shake the feeling that this lynch is wrong.

Vote: mothrax

I can switch to Bunnylover if my vote is required for us to get a lynch. I can be wrong, and even if I'm not, Che Guevara would be a good test of how much faith we can put in name claims and flavor. This game is described as a deeply flawed historical mafia event, and that may mean that flavor is inherently unreliable.

[Feysal]

Yeah, I was town.

Well, so much for that. Once this is confirmed by a mod post, that will mean that flavor does not guarantee anyone to be either town or scum.

It is regrettable this had to happen, but it seems too many players wanted to lynch either Amrun or Bunnylover because of their scummy roles, and there were no viable alternatives with time running out.

There is still over an hour until deadline, so I may have time to post some thoughts before the night phase begins, depending on when the mod gets here.

EGL IS SO INCREDIBLY SCUMMY
WHEN I GET NIGHTKILLED, PLEASE KILL HIM - WITH A ROPE

Just when I was starting to entertain the thought that you might just be playing badly, you go and do something like this.

Did you forget that you had claimed

bulletproof

? How are you supposed to be nightkilled!

[Feysal]

So, it's probably one American and one Soviet scumteam?

I agree on this. I would guess that being poisoned is the Soviet kill flavor and being assassinated the US, since real life Soviet assassins are known to have preferred poison. I know RedCoyote did not say much about GhostWriter/hohum yesterday, but that slot would make most sense as a vigilante target, and the other two as scum targets.

I'm now glad I did not share my setup theory immediately when I replaced in, not doing so enabled me to watch for town and scum tells. I was pretty sure there were two scum teams, and some players basing their thinking on one scum team implies ignorance, and therefore town. I find subtle tells like that to be more reliable than the big ones, since they tend to be harder to fake.

As for possible scumtells, three people yesterday hinted at two scum teams: DavidParker (#845), Furcolow (#894), gonnano (#1114). Furcolow's hint was the three-member scumteam which smargaret caught, the other two were explicit. Only DavidParker has not explained where his insight came from. Why did you think there were two scum factions? And bvoigt too of course, why did you?

As for Furcolow, he has been caught lying, and since it was his own fault he has no business being mad at anyone but himself about it. There is also another thing I wondered about when he claimed. Immediately after claiming Heydar Aliyev he claimed not to know much about his character. Why would he not? My role PM included a wikipedia link, and since ThAdmiral posted one in thread, I assume his did as well. Why would Furcolow not check his wikipedia link if he wanted to know about his character?

I continue to believe Amrun is town, like I did yesterday. If she has been blocked, that is odd, but I don't think it makes her scum.

[Feysal]

Responding to prod. I've been slacking off in my games, sorry about that. Incoming catchup post.

I'm sorry to see that the discussion during the weekend seems to have focused mainly on Amrun. I think I made my stance clear yesterday, I think she is town, and what others are calling scummy about her I see as newbie play. PoisonIvy's reaction to being wagoned was a strong town tell for me, and that is why I continue to believe Amrun is town. I don't think scum would claim a silencer anyway, WIFOM or no, and since we should be able to verify her ability after another day or two, I say that Amrun should not be todays lynch and we should look at alternatives. I saw bvoigt and ThAdmiral do some of that, and I'm liking them both better for it.

I also don't buy the DavidParker case LMP is pushing. It seems to be based solely on his comment of joining the wagon with townier members, and while odd, it does not override the town read I got from how he reacted to Amrun's claim.

People I'm considering as possible scum include gonnano, Lowell, Sathoris and Furcolow. Except for Furcolow I have no cases to present at this time, but I have cause to suspect each of the others. Some of gonnano's flavor arguments seem to really stretch historical facts to suit a predetermined conclusion, Lowell seems to have avoided any major wagons, and Sathoris is being much more silent than I'm used to seeing him.

This is a good point. But it also applies retrospectively to Amrun and the mix up with general MacArthur. There's no way that mistake would have been made if she had checked the wiki page.
It is weird but people can just be lazy sometimes and not check wiki pages, I guess?

What my point was about was that instead of reading Wikipedia, Furcolow asked about his role in thread. I actually found that very scummy on first reading, since I thought Furcolow had claimed not to like his character - if he did not know much about him, how could he dislike him? Then I checked back and noticed Furcolow had claimed not to like his nationality. I suppose he means the Soviets, don't know what he'd have against Azeris.

Heydar Aliyev, Soviet Bulletproof

I don't really know a lot about my character, can someone inform me?

I'm soviet, basically, from Azerbaijan or whatever. My guy was friends with the Democracy in Russia, so he is on the good side, if one so exists. It is all based upon perspective. I like capitalism more, so I don't mind. I don't really feel nervous about a wagon on me, or claiming anything. Lynch me if you all will, I don't really care.

We've established that flavor arguments are pretty much null tells in this game, but misrepresenting your character like this caught my eye. In fact Heydar Aliyev was the chairman of the Azerbaijani KGB and the leader of Soviet Azerbaijan. He was a hardliner, who was pushed out of power by Gorbachev during the perestroika. He was also involved with the Azeri mafia and gross corruption, while keeping a facade of fighting corruption.

Despite the persecutions of all his relatives in Azerbaijan, Gamboi Mamedov investigated Aliyev's corruption and ties with the mafia. This led to the mass suicide of a number of Azeri mafia members, as well as 'mysterious' deaths of a number of Aliyev's lieutenants.

Based on this and other mentions in the article, Aliyev could be described as the godfather of the Azeri mafia.

However, this flavor does not condemn Furcolow, since we've seen how reliable that is. What does look odd is how he claimed to be a friend of democracy. Aliyev did reinvent himself as a moderate nationalist after the Soviet Union collapsed, but considering that he appointed his own son as his successor, I would not say democracy was high on his agenda.

@Feysal: while we're giving out possible scumtells, why did

you

think there were two scum teams?

From reading the rules, and the first couple pages of the thread. The rules say that players have a separate alignment and nationality. This implies that the town consists of several nationalities, and several players obviously agree. But then, what is the purpose of nationality in the game mechanics? My theory is that there are two mafia factions, whose win condition is to eliminate the opposing nationalities, whether town or scum, and they don't need to kill the townies who share the same nationality. The rules say that there is a possible mafia win condition that only Soviet players remain, and I believe there is another that says only non-Soviet players remain. Considering that there are Soviet townies, the sample mafia win condition would not require the Soviet mafia to kill them.

@LMP: It looks to me like Sathoris is trying to skate by, and posting very little good content. You've played with him before, right? What do you think?

I saw LMP answer this already, but since I've played with Sathoris more, I'll add my own opinion. In the games I've played with Sathoris he has usually been quite aggressive, and the last time I noted him being cautious he was a cult leader. Those games were much faster than this one so it makes sense that his play would be somewhat different, but I do see cause for suspicion.

IN CONCLUSION:
- I think there is a VERY high possibility of at least one scum in the

bvoigt

,

smarg

and

lowell

group.
-

DavidParker

's reasoning for his vote was inconsistent with what he had said previously, and therefore he could be scum.

I'm going to look at bvoigt, smarg and lowell and will probably place my vote on one of them.

Off the top of my head Lowell is the one I agree on the most, with bvoigt and smargaret I'm leaning town.

Regardless of Amrun being RBed or not, the role ability is inherently not a town ability. She is still scum.

I have seen a town silencer before, in fact far more drastic than the role Amrun claimed. What I saw was a silencer who could not only prevent a player from voting, but from posting altogether. With 48 hour days, this was not quite as bad as it sounds though. That was an off-site game, but anyway I'd be careful about trying to outguess the mod about what roles he would give the town.

"or whatever"

god he doesn't even know the town wincon omg he's scum

Given that the town win condition is mentioned in the rules, Furcolow is just making himself look foolish.

Preview edit: Glad to see some scum hunting from Nachomamma8. mothrax is another one that needs a closer look.

[Feysal]

Good grief Furcolow, you need to stop digging yourself into a hole after you reach China. You lied, you were caught, you lied

again

and you were caught

again

... What in the world made you think that lying repeatedly would be a good idea? Your play is bloody awful, I have half a mind to demand that you replace out to stop you from failing your role, whatever it actually is.

CAN YOU IMAGINE WHY I WOULD FAKECLAIM THAT?
THEN SHIFT TO TOWNIE?
I AM A DOCTOR.

No. I cannot imagine why you would fake claim in the first place. There was no wagon on you, and the only serious pressure was from me. You were in no imminent danger of being night killed either.

What I'd like to hear from you is who you have protected and why, and explanations for the following two quotes.

With no protective role, though, I would possibly agree with you. WE JUST CAN'T KNOW THAT.
Organization is what is the key to the town, and getting information out. Little snarky comments about ideas that are actually very openminded and assertive in that the town as a collective can come together to overcome the threat of scum is just the exact thing that I don't want to see.

Claiming helps determine the setup, ThAdmiral.

I know I said I didn't want to discuss this, but I do have to clear one thing up.
The above quote seems to imply that at any given point you would promote a mass claim. Is that the case?

Actually, if I knew we had a protective role, yes.
However, the key to that would be not outting the protective role, or guaranteeing X number of innocents at a certain point.

In an open setup, where it is advantageous to do so, yes. I actually like having my cards on the table, knowing what they are, and how to use them. I feel it is a very underused strategy for the town, when the scum are much more proportionately weaker and would be forced to counterclaim.

On the first day you claimed to support mass claiming, if only you could be sure there was a protective role. If your claim is true, you were the doctor the whole time. What was the purpose of all this speculation and talk about organizing the town then?

And by the way, what Stephoscope said was that the town needed a claim. Why would the presence of a protective role have any effect on whether you agreed with him?

Yet another reason to not believe Furc - Amrun's claimed a name and role that fit (and while I doubt the silencer is town, I don't doubt that she is a silencer). My name and role fit. Heydar Aliyev does not fit with doc.

To be fair, Che Guevara does not really match with role blocker either, or John Glenn (astronaut and senator) with vigilante.

[Feysal]

I only have time for a brief post right now. I've been badly strapped for time between my games and real life for the past week, and it is obvious my activity here has suffered from this. I intend to remedy this as soon as possible, for now I'm just saying I haven't disappeared off the face of the Earth.

Oh, and The Fonz is most welcome in the game. Even though a recent experience with him taught me to be leery of his style catching up.

[Feysal]

I've been the only person in this god damn town trying to scumhunt.

In your dreams. You've not made a single case that would've made sense, you just call people scum for reasons that are dubious even by your standards. Or you call people scum with no reasoning at all.

Where the fuck is his lurking scummy ass.

If you want to know where I was for the end of the last day, I was struggling not to flake from all of my games. This is now the last one I'm alive in, so you can expect to see more of me. I'll need to do some major rereading though to get my head back into the game.

For now though, Artem and VP Baltar are at the top of the list of players needing ISO reading, since they can be mined for relations. For one thing, I remember Artem being resistant to the theory that hohum was the vigilante target last night, and he seemed intent on using that as reason to suspect the people who believed it. Now that we've had more kills using the same kill flavors as last night, I still believe that being poisoned is the Soviet mafia kill flavor, assissinated is the US and removed from bunker is the vigilante. We lost one vigilante of course, and my guess now is that there is a Soviet even-night vigilante. I don't think serial killer makes much sense in this setup, particularly if the serial killer could only kill on even nights, as seems to be the case. If true, then I am amazed by the kill choice, what with Furcolow remaining alive.

Frankly, I don't get the DavidParker case. His behavior when Amrun claimed was a major towntell for me, just because Artem said so too does not change that.

[Feysal]

I was reading another part of the game, then looked at the more recent posts and found smargaret at L-1 and claimed. After the way Amrun got quickhammered, I'd hate to see smargaret go the same way. Could someone unvote her and take her out of hammering range? Least we can do is hear her out.

During my reading I spotted Artem's replacement post, where the only read he gave was that he wanted smargaret lynched first. Looked like a strong indicator that they were not scum together, though that should be obvious since smargaret claimed to be West German.

More later, I have some reading to finish.

[Feysal]

It's about time I got something done in this game. I've been combing through Artem's ISO and certain other parts of the game trying to get reads, and I've had some limited success. For starters, Furcolow.

Amazingly, I've reached the conclusion that Furcolow is probably town after all. Despite all his lies and scummy play. The main reason is that Furcolow claimed Heydar Aliyev, and though he has repeatedly changed his role claim, his name claim has remained constant. If Furcolow is Soviet, then I can't see him in the same scumteam with Artem. The bizarre way he voted Artem for being too town to be town may have been clumsy distancing, but other statements by Furcolow have since indicated he was serious with that suspicion, particularly this one:

I am willing to lynch this slot before there is a replacement, because due to meta, he appears protown as scum and vice versa.

Furcolow said this about Artem when he replaced out, and though there was no chance in hell Artem would actually be quicklynched before a replacement arrived, I still don't see Furcolow saying this about fellow scum.

As for Artem's side, he repeatedly said he believed Furcolow was third party. He never displayed clear reluctance to lynch him. I don't know how bus-happy Artem is, but Artem's attitude toward Furcolow still suggests they can't be scum together, particularly the part about Furcolow supposedly being third party.

I considered the possibility that Furcolow would've lied about his name as well. DavidParker has claimed Mikhail Bulgakov, author of the

Master and Margarita

, and it seemed plausible that there could be another, non-Soviet author. With Furcolow bringing up

Fahrenheit 451

twice for no apparent reason, I thought he may have been soft claiming Ray Bradbury. If the scum teams are really trying to kill off townies of the opposing nationalities, then it would be natural for the scum to false claim their nationalities to avoid being targeted by the other team. Of all the characters that have been claimed or revealed through flips, I consider Heydar Aliyev to be the most obscure, and therefore a possible false claim that scum did not expect to be in the game. But, frankly I believe this kind of play to be above Furcolow's level, and without daytalk other scum could not have advised him on what to claim.

There is something else too which I spotted in Furcolow's ISO, which I'm not going to quote here. It was but a hint, but it adds up and explains a number of things. I think I've figured out what Furcolow actually is, and I don't think he is scum. If I were to vote him it would be a pure policy lynch now, and though I'm horrified of the thought of him being alive in endgame, we've lost so many townies that I'm not sure we can afford to waste a day in policy lynching him. We may just have to accept that we have a loose cannon in the game.

Other players who I believe not to be Soviet scum based on interactions with Artem are Beasts of the Sea, DavidParker, gonnano, Lowell and The Fonz. LynchMePls probably too. This is most significant for DavidParker who has claimed to be Soviet, since he'd have to be on the Soviet scumteam with Artem if he was scum, unless he lied about his nationality. I also have a town read on DavidParker based on his overall play. He has done some things I considered scummy, but they're not enough to overcome the strong town feeling I got from his early play and his reaction to Amrun's claim. Even though it came from scum, I think Artem's analysis of DavidParker's actions regarding Amrun was genuine, and spot on. The other players I mentioned Artem either suspected or voted when there was no pressure for him to bus, which is a good sign.

[Feysal]

Long time no see, thread. I've been prodded of course, and I admit both my posting and voting records have become very low for the past two day phases. I bet you don't care to hear my excuses, and I don't have any to give anyway. I've been bored and unmotivated, with this game and mafia in general, and that is that. Unfortunately things are not looking up for me in the near future either. On Sunday I will be flying to Rome, and I probably will have only sporadic net access if any until I come back next Friday. Therefore,

I will be on V/LA until Thursday next week

. I'll still be here tomorrow and try to sort out more of my thoughts in another post before I leave.

I see there is some suspicion on EGL, not surprisingly after his two town hammers. But after ISO reading him, I don't see much else to suspect him for, though there is certainly not much to give him a town read for either. I do get some weak town signals from his actions and posts on day one now, but it is not much to go on. I double checked the case smargaret posted too, and I'm afraid the facts don't support it. Neither EGL or gonnano ever said that much about each other, and the one time gonnano mentioned EGL as a favored lynch, he did vote him in the same post. Not what I'd call an open and shut case, now that I looked at it close.

The only good thing about checking in so infrequently is that anything I do read is always with fresh eyes, with little influence from past reads. Someone I may have to change my mind on is DavidParker, now PeregrineV. My read of him kept changing on day one, but I've thought him town ever since his reaction to Amrun's claim. Artem believed it was townish, and I agreed... and now I find myself second guessing that. With two scum teams, the reaction may have been genuine, but come from scum that was uncertain whether Amrun belonged to the rival scum team. Then there is that wagon where Artem and DavidParker were among the first to vote gonnano. Two scum leading a lynch on their partner? Not very credible at first glance, but then, I've done it too, late in the day when other wagons were well established and looked likely to result in town lynches. Now I wonder if that was what DavidParker was trying to do, distance from his partner while at the same time avoid being caught on a mislynch, but then the gonnano wagon unexpectedly began to develop, at which point he jumped off, trying to weaken the wagon, and gave a horrible reason for it.

It is worth noting that there was no "poisoning" nor "removed from bunker" last night. Is there anything we can deduce from that?

I believe that means there was no Soviet scum kill and no vigilante kill. Being shot is almost certainly not the Soviet kill flavor since that is how VP Baltar died, so it stands to reason that being poisoned is the Soviet kill flavor.

The latter is not at all surprising, since the odd-night vigilante is dead. The former, there are a number of explanations like a blocker, doctor, dual kill, or the scum simply failing to send in an action. If the Soviet scum are down to one person and that person was away for the night phase, that would be all the explanation needed. I'm obviously thinking about PeregrineV here. He did replace DavidParker before yesterday ended, but he never posted until this day phase. There could be other candidates too, I haven't done an extensive activity check.

Yeah, although I'm not sure it's really pro-town to say it.

Why not? The odd-night vigilante being dead is public knowledge, and I don't see anything about the lack of a Soviet kill that would be anti-town to say, as long as we remember there are several possibilities to explain that and don't jump into conclusions.

It's looking like 8 vs 4 vs 2.

Why so pessimistic? 8-4-2 could be possible, but I think 10-3-1 is at least equally possible.

[Feysal]

Back from Rome, back from V/LA. As it turned out, even sporadic access was wishful thinking, I haven't read anything posted since last Saturday. I'll be reading and responding after I've slept some.

[Feysal]

Feysal - can you elaborate on why the EGL case is suddenly invalid?

I could not remember very well what EGL had been doing and saying, so I reread his posts. He never voted gonnano, but I don't think that is reason enough to suspect a connection between them, particularly since gonnano chose to vote EGL in #956, as second on his wagon. Other than that, gonnano only mentions suspicion of EGL in one other post #1662, in a large pool of suspects. That is all. I don't see support for the distancing accusation.

There is also the matter that my suspicions of DavidParker/PeregrineV have been revived, and he claimed a while back. If he is Soviet, then he should be scum with Artem/VP Baltar and gonnano, and since I don't think there are more than three members in either team, that leaves no room for EGL in the Soviet scum team.

All that leaves me with is the fact that EGL hammered two town lynches. That is reason enough for suspicion, even without any connections to the Soviet scum team, but I think that EGL is more likely to belong to the other team, if he is scum at all.

Therefore, he has pegged 1 of the 2 scum on that team, but would only have a reason to do that as the other team, which we as a town need to reduce in number.

Just before this post you said you were assuming that there were four scum in each team. I don't share that idea. I have no solid evidence of there being only three members to a team, but I believe game balance works better that way. We started with 24 players, and six scum total sounds about right for the size of the game, particularly given the abundance of killing roles. There is also the sample win condition of only Soviets remaining, which has an important impact on game balance in late game. The town could find itself in LYLO if the last scum and all townies except one share the same nationality.

Simply put, I believe four scum in each team would shift balance severely against the town, especially with several night kills and with nationalities involved. Because of this, I find three more likely, meaning the Soviet mafia probably have only one member left. Eliminating that member would reduce the number of deaths each night. It would also eliminate the possibility of crosskills, not that we've had much luck with those. I'd say eliminating a nightly scum kill is a worthy reason to hunt down the weaker team to the last man.

I considered the possibility of forcing the last Soviet scum to work as a vigilante for town, but now I don't find that very appealing. The scum would have little motive to play along, and besides the town has another vigilante left anyway.

I've decided that your play is scummy, and I want a replacement on Feysal since he's given up on the game.

Missed the fact that I was in Rome all of last week, and away from the game on account of that?

No, Feysal, you need to talk about EGL and why you all of a sudden don't think he's a valid lynch.

He may be a valid lynch, but I think that the case connecting him to the Soviet scum team is invalid. He may still belong to the other scum team.

While I'm on that subject, I believe I'll christen the other scum team as NATO. We've never had a clue whether they are US scum, Free world scum or whatever, and I'm tired of speaking of "non-Soviet" or "other" scum.

[Feysal]

Looks like I've been outed, so I might as well confirm my role explicitly. I am indeed Erich Honecker, Soviet neighbor, smargaret's partner. I could add that while our alignments are unconfirmed, our names and nationalities are confirmed to each other. I know for a fact that smargaret is Willy Brandt, West German neighbor, and she knows similarly who I am. While I'm at it, I can also reveal two clues I left to my role and nationality. The major one was in post #462, my second one in the game. Take the first letter of each sentence, paragraph by paragraph, and you get AUFERSTANDEN AUS RUINEN, the name and first verse of the East German anthem, which I rather like.

The second clue I left was not hidden, but since no one ever seemed to notice, I guess it was too subtle.

Basically, the Che Guevara from the Cuban Missile Crisis would be one of the worst threats to peace imaginable, but in light of his later rift with the Soviets, I have trouble seeing him allied with anyone. The fact that Bunnylover gave his nationality as Cuban instead of Soviet also suggests this. The role sounds like it could be third party more than anything else.

The key here is that I implied Bunnylover would be either Cuban or Soviet, not both. At the time, from my own role, I thought that Soviet townies would not have a nationality other than Soviet. My role has no mention of me being East German anywhere. It was not until VP Baltar flipped Vietnamese Soviet that I learned otherwise.

In response to the case on me: it is true that I said in my QuickTopic with smargaret that EGL would be the way to go today. That was my mistake. Before that, smargaret had noted that gonnano had attacked EGL often, but avoided voting him. I did not bother to check this and took smargaret's word for it, and since I did remember EGL hammering two town players, I had nothing against his lynch and said what I did. When the day started and smargaret posted her case on EGL, only then I did an ISO read of EGL and a partial read of gonnano. I discovered that the facts did not match what smargaret had said. There was only one time gonnano made an attack on EGL, two if you're being generous, the other time being when gonnano listed several suspects that included himself. That is not often. Also, gonnano did vote EGL, as the second on that wagon, so I can't say he'd have avoided voting him either.

I stand by what I said: I think the distancing argument between gonnano and EGL is invalid. I find EGL much more likely to be NATO than Soviet scum. If you're voting me because of my last two days being poor, that is fine, they have been poor. If you're voting me for changing my mind when I noticed a flaw in the EGL case, then I don't know what to say.

As for the role fishing part, that makes no sense whatsoever. I did comment on there being no informative roles among the dead, and hoped that they'd learn something useful by today. Whose roles would I have fished for

in a QuickTopic?

Regardless of smargaret's alignment, she would not know of any informative roles, and I already knew her role to be a West German neighbor.

By the way, just so I'm making this clear: I still believe smargaret is town, even though I think her case on me is bad. I think it is a false dichotomy to expect one scum in our neighborhood of two.

Feysal, why didn't you claim that you were smarg's neighbor?

It was like Sathoris said, I had no reason to. In fact, smargaret had anticipated the previous night that she would be wagoned, and said I should not claim if it happened. I would've claimed anyway if it became necessary to defend her, and said as much in our QuickTopic, but since her claim was enough to end the wagon on her, I stayed silent.

smargaret is town. No question.

And that would make me scum because...? I obviously don't think that there would have to be scum in our neighborhood at all.

I feel that there is something off with this statement. You voted smargaret when she was wagoned, and unvoted only because you believed her claim. Now you're voting me, another neighbor, because of what exactly? I'm reminded of gonnano and his stances about Amrun and Bunnylover. He was really stretching historical truth when he tried to make Che Guevara look less like a threat than Joseph McCarthy. It all makes sense now. I think that his win condition was indeed to kill all non-Soviets, so he would gain nothing from Bunnylover's death. Either that, or he genuinely thought Amrun belonged to the other scum team. I feel that you could be NATO scum, and you'd want me dead rather than smargaret, because my death furthers the NATO scum win condition while smargaret's doesn't.