A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Ghostlin]

Hi, folks. It looks like I have 33 pages of reading to do. I will be posting actively within the next 24 hours.

[Ghostlin]

Vote: Raviann

Read them in iso sometime, there's not much information or analysis there. One moment she's exalting Zo as the savior of the town to be raised as a VI read, later, without really much impetus she's voting and exalting in the lynch. Her posts are one liners with "this is scummy" (as an example) and no reason why it's scummy. Call me crazy, but I like informed analysis and find it shockingly protown.

Also, how does she know who VI's would be?

I was all ready to scream "why are you letting Xtoxm off?" and then realized he's dead in the street. Bravo.

Chesskid seems to be drawing attention to himself almost deliberately, this would be protown except for the fact it's bleeding obvious. Still, having played in a few games with vezo, I can't decide if this is VI play or scum play or both.

DGB you have to always read carefully from what I've seen, but her willingness to be lynched if the entire has case went seriously wrong leads me to protown.

Magua: Why did you vote Zoaster over TS then? This seems scummy, as if you elected to choose a mislynch over a quantity you know might not be town. I don't have a problem with most of your other posts, but this one rings alarm bells to me.

MoI: You like text walls, but there's nothing there I innately disagree with.

Thor: Curious. You've only posted three times, and your second post was 4 days after your first? Did you have something going on, or were you waiting for something?

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: The first two paragraphs say VI. I meant to put VT there. I'm not entirely comfortable with raising anyone at the moment; it seems like a good way to advertise my scumreads to the entire scum team, and I'd rather not do that. I reserve the right to do so later.

[Ghostlin]

2. Marking this relational tell down for later – if Zoraster does turn out to not be scum (which I doubt) Nexus likely is.

To some degree number 2 should also apply to Danakillsu since he is making similar statements

Why? I mean, I know there's chainsaw defending, and I'm aware of making scum making connections to a townie in an attempt to make them more town seeming. But this relatonal tell seems to be based on this assumption that first of all that scum would be trying to make this on a townie, when scum could be defending other scum, or a townie doesn't like the most prominent points of your case.

Also, you sort of post text walls, which make people naturally pick and choose what they read, skim for comprehension. I don't find that scummy, necessarly, but people.

[Ghostlin]

1.

Why? I mean, I know there's chainsaw defending, and I'm aware of making scum making connections to a townie in an attempt to make them more town seeming. But this relatonal tell seems to be based on this assumption that first of all that scum would be trying to make this on a townie, when scum could be defending other scum, or a townie doesn't like the most prominent points of your case.

It’s not chainsawing as much as having a read that believes what is being said.

Read that post by Nexus again. He’s going out of his way to say that Zoraster is being scummy but he’d rather see Raivann lynched. Zoraster is the clear leader at this juncture. Note how Nexus looks to explain away scummy behavior by Zoraster in a soft manner.

It’s a fairly well known tactic for scum to push against a popular lynch when they know the target is Town. In this case he’s pushing very softly but is still ‘pushing’.

1. That makes sense, but wouldn't you want to investigate THAT irregardless of the flip, knowing the productivity for bussing, no matter how gentle?

2.

Also, you sort of post text walls, which make people naturally pick and choose what they read, skim for comprehension. I don't find that scummy, necessarly, but people.

Um, what? I’m not sure what you are trying to say here. If you are asking me to change my posting style don’t expect that to happen anytime soon.

That

comment about text walls was in reference to

this

:



2.[quote="MagnaofIllusion]1. You clearly aren’t reading closely since I’ve posted a case that includes more than ‘role-fishing’ and not raising.[/quote]

I'm making the point that I had to go through 32 pages of posts to get my reads. I tried to read as thoroughly as possible, but I admit I didn't read it all in detail nor would I be able to regurigate it on command. You don't have to change your posting style, however, it is entirely possible they could of missed your other reasoning in one of your longer posts. Can you summarize the crux of the case you posted? That way there's no excuse on what was and wasn't read.

[Ghostlin]

I don't see why we wouldn't raise has since he was responsible for eliminating scum.

Raise: has

Mod: could you fix the quote tag(s) above? Thanks.

[Ghostlin]

Hey Ghostlin.

Dont vote Raivann

Any particular reason why not?

[Ghostlin]

I'm curious about those people who are raising hasdgfas now.

Yes, we're all certain that hasdgfas is not Stark. We all should've been certain of that as of 10:00 am CST Friday -- that is, some 3 days and 6 hours ago.

Yet no one bothered to raise hasdgfas during that time. I especially don't like Nexus' "If you're demanding a raise" in post #844. This isn't the sort of thing that should need to be demanded; it should be something that comes about because pro-town play is that you should do *something*, not kvetch and moan that someone is telling you to do something.

Those people who are raising hasdgfas now because a stink is being made about it are being either a) lazy and inattentive, or b) scummy.

Also, I'll get this out there in response to bunnylover: If we lynch Zoraster and he flips scum, I am inclined to believe Raivann is town. That is, I don't buy that the scenario is "Zoraster-scum FoSes Raivann-scum while voting Locke Lamora-town." I am inclined, given the state of the game, to think it is "Zoraster-scum FoSes Raivann-town while voting Locke Lamora-scum-or-town".

My defense is primarly is that I've been here less than 24 hours, my predecessor didn't give me or anyone reads, so I've been flying by the seat of my pants. I've only latched onto Has raise only because he's the only one I sincerely believe without a shadow of a doubt is town and it doesn't compromise my town reads, because I feel scum probably knows he's town too.

I'm good with either lynch, a Zoa or a Raviann lynch. Their play has been pretty close to identical, either active lurking, or "I really believe this person is scummy, but let me vote someone else right over HERE..." kind of FoS.

[Ghostlin]

It confirms we're not giving it to starks. What more is there to consider? Cow has a post restriction? Doesn't mean he can't take direction. Worried he won't listen? Anyone could not listen, or could use the power in the same exact capacity.

If scum want to waste a NK on a confirmed target who is a spent vig with a post restriction, well, Lannister wins that bet too.

The bolded portion means you at least understand where I am going. Keep walking down that path and considering the implications ....

Please tell me that street doesn't go down the place of hascow killing his own teammate to clear himself so he can blantantly get the governor post.

Because that's horrible WIFOM.

[Ghostlin]

The rhetoric is pointless guys, and it makes neither one of you look good.

[Ghostlin]

And Nexus and BL

and

Shadow/Ghostlin who dont know whats going on.

No u.

Really? This is what the discourse has come to? And I'm on a wagon with you?

You know, six of one, half dozen of the other in this particular case, and the people who are making more sense are in fact, on the other lynch.

Unvote; Vote: Zoa

[Ghostlin]

VOTE: Bunnylover

I think I read three votes, two raises, a bunch of stuff that upon further observation didn't say much (I'm trying to decide what ISO 16 says and the fact that it doesn't really mean anything considering any lynch=a flip, and there's no consideration of what happened when Zoaster flipped third party), and the 'I can't complain if a townie isn't dying' is really odd in ISO 21. You realize we don't win the game if we lynch third parties, right?

[Ghostlin]

Nominate: Raviann

Most of you have said she's consistently been playing a bad game; I still think there's a chance she's scummy. Let's make her the envoy and minimize the damage the player can do: if she's scum, we've deprived her of a chance to talk to her buddies, if she's town, then maybe we can get something out of the deal that's not a bunch of sheep votes.

[Ghostlin]

Reading Rai's ISO, he may not be scummy (although I'd almost bet a cheeseburger that he stands a good chance of it); however, there are quite a few votes without any reason at all, (Song of Fire and Ice) and a sprinkling of weird calls like the word 'crazy' in context being scummy, and calling for dayvigs before claiming also being scummy: The word nonsensical springs to mind when I read Rai's ISO, and mostly because there's not much meat there.

[Ghostlin]

I’ll repeat since it was missed –

@MOD – was the lack of specific kill flavor intentional?

--

I find it hard to believe that both DGB and danakillsu, who both played in Clash, misinterpreted how the Nominate Process worked. It is essentially a carbon copy of the Day 2 Mob Action from Clash without the annoying 48 hour lockdown of the thread.

--

Most of you have said she's consistently been playing a bad game; I still think there's a chance she's scummy. Let's make her the envoy and minimize the damage the player can do: if she's scum, we've deprived her of a chance to talk to her buddies,

if she's town, then maybe we can get something out of the deal that's not a bunch of sheep votes.

Dislike this. You should only be Nominating someone you feel is scum, not a player who you only think there is ‘a chance’ that they are scum. Furthermore please explain what you mean regarding the bolded.

--

One of Twilight Sparkle and Mikujin are scum. I put my money on Mikujin.

Is this drawn from their close proximity on the Shadow wagon? I just want to be sure because I understand that thought process but the TS / Muki interactions look like very much like soft distancing looking at Day 1.

Oh, I'm pretty sure Raviann's scum. I wouldn't have voted for him most of Day 1 (well, the part of it I was here) if I wasn't pretty sure. Unless I was scum (or certain power roles) though, I wouldn't be 100% sure of scum/town, right? Do

you

know with certainity of who's scum/town?

In this case we either isolate a suboptimal player for town that might not make it to lynch today either way: in essence get a weaker lynch against another player who is at the least playing antitown that arouses suspicion. You can dislike the fact that I didn't call Raviann a scummy scumtard all you like: I feel at the moment BL's as bad or as worse at him; hence the placement of both my vote/nomination.

Thor: Case coming.

[Ghostlin]

ISO 1: BL contradicts themselves here: if we all self raise, we very well can't raise for him. This also defeats the point of 1 shot g-ship.

ISO 4: A touch hypocrticial considering Iso 1.

ISO 7-9: So you only do stuff when you're pressured to do it? Votes for the post restricted person...because he's post restricted. Not for any scum play...this never gets cited, but for a post restriction. This doesn't strike me as protown behavior, since powerful townies or scum can have post restrictions. That's a very null thing. However, it seems like a very scummy thing to do to deny town a useful PR.

ISO 10: Contradicts posts 7-9, and how do you know we have a namecop in this game?

ISO 11: Contradicts post 10. We shouldn't shoot the scummy post restricted player and get a namecop to investigate, but a lynch is being pushed for these reasons?

ISO 12: Not sure what they're asking, but I think CK is calling your play poor for voting the post restriction.

ISO 14: "Well hasfagas isn't panning out. Let's jump on another wagon!" The case was poor to begin with, but if you wanted us to take it seriously, you need to post reasons why someone's scummy. The Raivann case posted is poor too, there are lots of reasons to vote Raivann, but that's not really one.

ISO 16: This is WIFOM, I'm sure, if it makes any sense at all. I can't make heads or tails of it.

ISO 17-18: No U! post + Yes, you're supposed to acutally post why you're right and he's wrong. It's called 'a case'. This is an argument against anyone posting a case ever. It also requires no thought whatsoever or further analysis for the Raivann case.

ISO 19-20: Wants LL to claim; thing is, I wouldn't claim if I wasn't at L-1. This also reads an argument against MoI for having different reasons for placing a vote and NOT sheeping. This then dissolves into a WIFOMsque speculation on NKs that I'm not sure helps anyone, ever, and seems to ignore Doctors and Roleblockers.

ISO 21: "This is a safe wagon to join!" "I will be joining it soon!" Oh, wait...

ISO 22: Lyncher =/= SK. Also, waffle on nominated vote with some questionable analysis.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: This is the Bunnylover case/ISO. Most of the analysis posted by this player is WIFOM, fishing blantantly for Locke Lamora's role, a vote for us to Policy Lynch someone with a post restriction while not making a case why he's scum, sheeping, somewhat untrue setup speculation, and is generally somewhere between scummy and unhelpful in general.

[Ghostlin]

[

Oh, I'm pretty sure Raviann's scum. I wouldn't have voted for him most of Day 1 (well, the part of it I was here) if I wasn't pretty sure. Unless I was scum (or certain power roles) though, I wouldn't be 100% sure of scum/town, right? Do you know with certainity of who's scum/town?

In this case we either isolate a suboptimal player for town that might not make it to lynch today either way: in essence get a weaker lynch against another player who is at the least playing antitown that arouses suspicion. You can dislike the fact that I didn't call Raviann a scummy scumtard all you like: I feel at the moment BL's as bad or as worse at him; hence the placement of both my vote/nomination.

Of course not. Your post smacked of mild fence-sitting and thus my comment.

Would it be safe, based on this response, for me to think that Raivann would be an acceptable possible lynch for you if Bunnylover was dead then?

[Ghostlin]

[

Oh, I'm pretty sure Raviann's scum. I wouldn't have voted for him most of Day 1 (well, the part of it I was here) if I wasn't pretty sure. Unless I was scum (or certain power roles) though, I wouldn't be 100% sure of scum/town, right? Do you know with certainity of who's scum/town?

In this case we either isolate a suboptimal player for town that might not make it to lynch today either way: in essence get a weaker lynch against another player who is at the least playing antitown that arouses suspicion. You can dislike the fact that I didn't call Raviann a scummy scumtard all you like: I feel at the moment BL's as bad or as worse at him; hence the placement of both my vote/nomination.

Of course not. Your post smacked of mild fence-sitting and thus my comment.

Would it be safe, based on this response, for me to think that Raivann would be an acceptable possible lynch for you if Bunnylover was dead then?

Completely acceptable.

[Ghostlin]

EBWOP: This is the Bunnylover case/ISO. Most of the analysis posted by this player is WIFOM, fishing blantantly for Locke Lamora's role, a vote for us to Policy Lynch someone with a post restriction while not making a case why he's scum, sheeping, somewhat untrue setup speculation, and is generally somewhere between scummy and unhelpful in general.

Wait what.
Fising for LL role? A person said they knew LL role (name) and I wanted LL to confirm that so in case LL is scum he fake claims something that Zoraster didn't say while LL had already agreed that that was his claim. I wasn't asking for powers or anything, I don't see how a name claim is harmful. For example if LL had said, "Oh Yes I am that person," when Zoraster had fake claimed the first time, we would have a confirm scum on our hands or maybe dead not sure how it would go down. Plus I wasn't the only one who asked for it.
Name claim =/= Role claim.
I explained why we should lynch Raivann and Hasdgfas (before the vig shot). Yes Hasdgfas was more on the PL line, but I explained why.
Sheeping what? Where have I sheeped?
Setup Speculation? If I'm speculating about the setup how do you know its untrue unless you have inside knowledge that would prove it untrue? Since your withholding that information would that make you anti-town?

1)...The Has case was weak to the point of nonexistant. You didn't bother to expand it any with proof of how/why he would BE scum. You just went 'bad post restriction is bad.'

2) My point is, why should LL have to claim

anything

seeing the 3rd party claim and LL wasn't a suspect?

3) You sheeped onto the Raivann wagon with kinda a 'lol, that post sucked', (I'm paraphrasing) didn't expand that at all, and indicated you'd jump onto a Zoa wagon once you found out the reason he lied. (You never did, but indicated willingness too.)

4) I didn't say the speculation was untrue, I said it was unhelpful: NK's are the most nebulous way to get information about a setup. The number of NKs should not been taken as a credible bit of information, and yet you seem(ed) to want us to take this as evidence.

[Ghostlin]

@Magua: Vote on BL, Nominate on Raivann.

[Ghostlin]

Xvart: I am voting. I'm voting the person you find scummy enough to nominate. I don't acutally have two votes, or I'd vote them both.

[Ghostlin]

I'm sorry for my absence. I'd hoped to get caught up yesterday, but I couldn't access the internet from the airport I was flying from. I need a day to think about things and I will post tomorrow, but in the meanwhile . . . .

I strongly doubt that Magua is Stark because of his push on diddin yesterday.

I am willing to accept that because of the flavour that LL is cleared (my own knowledge of flavour is minimal, so I really am trusting others here)

I agree with MoI that Twilight Sparkle's use of soft accusations against him is scummy.
MoI, since Zoraster's flip, what are your opinions of Nexus and Dana?

I would guess that Bunnylover isn't Stark because of diddin's attack on her yesterday.

'
Hrrr? With the existence of bussing and even voting on town wagons as scum, I don't see how you can use interactions on the deceased as reliable.

I can agree with LL assertion of possibly being town due to the fact a lyncher probably doesn't have a scum target and Zoa's eagerness to push the point yesterday, but the rest of this is blantant WIFOM reasoning. And trying to make guesses about flavor 100% seems like outguessing the mod to me. I dislike this post. I think I'll have to reread you.

[Ghostlin]

@Feysal, Ghostlin, Bunnylover:

Do you think diddin was bussing Raivann through most of D1?

*raises hand*

Possibly, to not arouse suspicion. Scum do cross vote each other all the time; it allows for cases such as 'I can't be scum, since he flipped scum and voted me. Why would he vote a buddy?'

Mod: I am feeling under the weather, I may be V-LA for the next day or two.

[Ghostlin]

Back, reading. This game posts roughly two pages of commentary to half a page on some of my others, so I may be slowish, but I'll answer some questions and have insight on my next post.

[Ghostlin]

DGB, would you explain why you think that only townies were on the Raivann wagon?

Ghostlin, I know MoI asked this already, but I don't think you answered: in reference to nominating Raivann, what did you mean by

if she's town, then maybe we can get something out of the deal that's not a bunch of sheep votes.

Sure, let me give you some posts that struck me from Raivann's iso; this is ISO 21:

@Didden- I've actually got a town read on you. Please put you're vote somewhere better.

Can we agree on anyone?

How about Feysal?

What's you're views on xvart?

"Hey Diddin, can we agree on a lynch together? What about these guys?" The other thing about it is you can have it directed entirely toward town as a whole. It sounds like he's fishing for a wagon to join, hence sheeping.

ISO 25:

As for my zoraster vote...

Raivann

Raivann, upon second inspection is scummy. I feel like he's going for a sort of "hit and run" post style that keeps him under the radar yet active. Without reviewing anything, can you remember anything Raivann has said or what his positions are? No? Me neither, and I just reread his iso. Pretty reluctant to vote

This is total BS. Can anyone ISO me and not know what my positions are? How am I reluctant to vote. What a crock.

One thing is for sure: the Hand should be picked by at least a large plurality. We can't let it be picked by 2 or 3 people.

This is duh, scummy.

I decided to check out the Raivann and Zoraster connection, and I found this:

This post was on Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:19 pm

Raivann
Raivann, upon second inspection is scummy. I feel like he's going for a sort of "hit and run" post style that keeps him under the radar yet active. Without reviewing anything, can you remember anything Raivann has said or what his positions are? No? Me neither, and I just reread his iso. Pretty reluctant to vote

From Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:51 pm

If there was a good case against Raivann, I don't recall seeing it. I isoed you to come across your vote on Raivann, but it's not like that was gold scum hunting. You are the only person to have voted him all game, so I don't really get where you're coming from.

Cognitive dissonance anyone?

Anyway I stopped my exercise of looking at how they could be related after this because I know which one I'd perfer to lynch.

Unvote
Vote Zoraster

This is a good point.

Highlight mine. To summarize Raivann's Zoa vote: 1) Gets insulted that Zoa's voting him for accusing him of hit and run posting without content, but doesn't refute that 'anyone that can read my ISO can tell what my opinons are.' OMGUS.
2) Points out that Zoa pointed out the obvious and tried to make it scummy. Yes, if you had more than just this, you'd have a point here. Here, it looks like you're trying too hard.
3) Then sheeps Zdenek (you) pretty much in a contradiction of terms post as part of his proof. OMGUS Baa.

ISO 30:

zoraster lynch is a go!

This is cheerleading without really having to help the cause.

These are examples of what I meant when I said sheeping.

[Ghostlin]

Twilight Sparkle is town.

DrippingGoofball is scum. Are you ever actually going to clarify why you downgraded your suspicion of me at the point you did and not after Zoraster's claim and flip?

If this is your only case/defense on anyone, maybe you should try harder? Seriously, playing the 'someone didn't downgrade their suspicions of me when I'm cleared' isn't a town sentiment.

DGB

, I've read you in ISO and played with you. You're better than this. Play harder.

[Ghostlin]

Fuck it.

STARKS DIDN'T KILL CHESSKID, I DID. Discuss.

Wait, what? Chess was Lancaster aligned though; the only other flip was Stark, and I'd think you'd have a hard time convincing me the mafia iced one of their own.

The remaining possibilities are these: (Ordered in how feasible I like them.)

1) You are scum, soft claiming Vig/SK.
2) There's a protection role/RB role in the house (which, in that case, protection role,

do not claim

), and you are a town aligned Vig.
3) See above, replace the word vig with SK.
4) 2 or 3, only Starks didn't kill/can't kill last night (not likely).
5) More than one mafia group in this game and one of them was blocked from acting last night. (This is a combo of 1, you're soft claiming Vig, and telling the truth in a way we'd like to hear.)

I'm not sure how I feel about this yet.

[Ghostlin]

Setael: Here's a simple counterquestion for you. If you believe in the BL case, are getting all the information for it, then why aren't you voting for it?

[Ghostlin]

Welcome back Ghostlin. You still sitting a fence about my claim, or you hopping if you don't bring it up we'll all forget your scummy response?

Let me ask a question, LMP: Did you make the claim so you could expand your scumlist? Because quite frankly, I get why you shot chess. The primary reason why I'm not voting you is unless MoI is completely obv scum, there's no other reason because for icing a person that was just tunnelling MoI besides eliminating a VI, so that claim of shooting chess is safe enough, and townie enough to not suspect you at the moment.

Now, if you find my thought processes scummy because I listed the possibilites of your claim and didn't know what to do with it at the time, I can't help you with your paranoia.

[Ghostlin]

@Ghostlin: Do you deny that everything you listed was completely obvious to anyone with two working brain cells? If so, why did you post it? If not, please elaborate on how any of those things weren't obvious.

BL didn't get it (or at least pretended they didn't). It wasn't obvious to everyone, and sometimes I state what's 'obvious' as a way to clean my mind house and help get out what's on my mind, again, if that's scummy, can't really help you with that.

BL's role specific fishing is noted and seems to be a good way for scum to cover their bases. It makes me satisfied with where my vote is.

Fey: What makes you say if you're not going to be lynched, you're going to be NKed?

[Ghostlin]

[quote="Zdenek"]Ghostlin, I understand that there are plenty of examples of Raivann sheeping. What I wanted explained was why you felt that nominating Raivann would change his play?[quote]

Just caught this question. It's not so much change his play (although I do hope while he's voiceless it'll let him examine the reads and come back with something that doesn't sound like a sheep vote; I want him to be able to build a case if town) but allow us to be able to move forward without someone who'd not jump on convienent wagons.

[Ghostlin]

/picks up prod.

Guys, I'm not doing my 100% best with both games of the Larges I'm in, I'm have trouble catching up, and well, this isn't as fun as I'd thought it'd be.

That's my fault, no one elses, I didn't think the larges would be so problematic and I am sorry to inconvience anyone for it. I'd like to requst replacement, please.