The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Yosarian2]

Why didn't you comment on my exchange with Gummybear last night, while it was actually happening?

-Ether

I didn't see it until I logged on before work this morning, and I didn't have time to post then.

[Yosarian2]

It is less your level of saying Ether is town and more the wholesale agreement with pretty much everything Ether was saying at the time regarding FD without giving anything more than glazed commentary on things not spoken about by Ether (at the time, not as of current).

Meh; at the time, I was basically just looking for a wagon to join, something to get the game moving. You don't need much of a reason to join an early day 1 wagon; the town's got to get started somewhere. Her arguments against gummy seemed reasonably logical; and even better, they were funny, which is a huge town-tell from Ether.

The way FD responded to pressure was what really gave me a stronger scum read on him; the early meta case against him seemed valid to me, but if it was just that, I might have moved on to a different vote by now.

I'm not really clear why Ether has decided FD is town now. If she wants to explain, that's cool; otherwise, like I just said to Cayke, let Ether wander off and be a loose cannon pointed in one direction, we'll wander off and be a loose cannon pointed in the other direction, and the scum's got to start falling out of the trees one way or the other.

-Yos

[Yosarian2]

So, jumping off the FES wagon, who has more support and you you think is TOWNTOWNLOL, to vote YOU doesn't change your mind?

It might, if your vote for me had any real logic behind it, and if your voting pattern in general wasn't so obviously OMGUS driven. Most of your votes, though, seem far more concerned with trying to punish people for voting you and trying to get them to back off of your wagon then with actually finding scum.

The pattern behind your votes is obvious, FD, and it's really scummy. Your argument against me is pretty obviously bunk, just like your vote against ether and your vote for frog. It really looks like you just decided "I really wanna for for Yos now, because I want to get him off my back, what bullshit justification can I invent for it."

The fuck? When did we say that? We found it odd you weren't DEBATING your read on us with Ether, since we're apparently your top scumread who's done all sorts of "legit scummy" things... but you're not willing to contest this with Ether. You don't wanna get in a fight with a townie you have deep in your pocket.

Why would I debate you with Ether? The main reason to argue with someone is to figure out their alignment.

You did not spend two hours making an ISO on that many people in a game this size, AND TO ONLY have "scummy" as your reasoning for why your vote was on this slot. You. Did. Not.

um...yes, I just did. Obviously so; you should be able to tell that just from the time stamps of my posts, in fact. It takes a while to do an ISO on 6 people.

At this point, i was actually trying to avoid tunneling, and was trying to get a read on everyone else in the game. Also, I'm trying to figure out where, logically, the scum group might be.

I notice you don't seem to even comment on any of the reads or observations I did make, which I find pretty bizarre in this situation. It seems like the only thing you care about is my read on you, and how you don't like that it's scummy; you basically have no interest in commenting on anything else.

Are you seriously claiming that if I am *gasp* defending myself, that that's a scumtell?

Yes, you defending yourself as a clear focus of your play, moreso than scumhunting, as well as your focus on budying people, is a scumtell. I'm not going to debate why scumtells are scumtells with you, because you'll obviously deny it.

Every pro-town person should defend themselves whenever attacked. You sure as hell have.

The difference between my play and yours is that I spend some time defending myself, and spend some time scumhunting, trying to find out people's alignments. (As much townhunting as scumhunting, actually, but the result is the same.) You, on the other hand, spend ALL of your time defending yourself, trying to get people to unvote you, and you DISGUISE that AS scumhunting. You pretend that you're scumhunting, but it's pretty obvious that your only motive is to discredit people who want to lynch you.

What I've been doing is pro-town; pro-town people should defend themselves, should respond to attacks and questions ect, but shouldn't ever let it stop them from scumhunting, from trying to figure out people's alignments. What you've been doing is scummy as hell; scum don't care about scumhunting, obviously, so they OMGUS, they use their vote and their attacks to try to either get people off of them or discredit their attackers so other people won't listen to them.

Plus, tbh, another big reason I'm voting you at this point is that there are a lot of people that look pro-town to me, and you are not one of them. If I'm right about most or all my town reads, then the odds you are scum are petty high here; there just aren't that many likely scumgroups at this point that don't include you.

-Yos

[Yosarian2]

It doesn't surprise ME mainly because a bunch of people are trying to basically say that in this thread, self-contradiction is not a scumtell. Unless, of course, it's this hydra doing it. No scumtells = no posting.

Huh? There's lot of scumtells in this thread, many of them made by you. Just because contradicting yourself isn't a scumtell, doesn't mean there aren't any ways to find scum.

Is that really your excuse for the generally low quality of scumhunting you've done so far this game?

-Yos

[Yosarian2]

WIFOM. Scum can kill someone to frame, PR hunt, or just for the hell of it. I dislike discussing reasons for nightkills, because it's never very useful.

Not in the current meta. The current meta is "town never talk about the reasons behind nightkills, so scum generally can get away with killing off whoever suspects them with impunity, without worrying about how it looks." Town should be analyzing nightkill motives more then they are now. Granted, there can in theory be a ton of WIFOM, but if towns at least consider the obvious nightkill motives, that is going to either catch scum or else make it harder for scum to directly influence the day-game with their nightkills, and either way, it'll result in more town wins.

You are right, of course, about the possibility of PR hunting. In fact, it was your predecessor, Beaver, who was openly speculating in thread that Ether was a mason.

-Yos

[Yosarian2]

We apologize profusely for taking forever to post again. :/ Real life sucks.

YFC’s 413 is not good. You continue to insist that your obvtown read on Pathetric should’ve been agreed upon by everyone, which is nonsensical at best. Due to the simple fact that not everyone (I don’t remember how many it was, but I don’t think there were very many) agreed with that read, you should know that it’s clearly not obvious.

(shrug) I still hold that any decent pro-town player who was paying proper attention to the game should have got an obvtown read of of Ether. I also still think that everyone who voted her on day 1 should explain themselves, because I still don't understand any reasonable pro-town thought process that could have lead to the incorrect conclusion of "Ether is scum". I don't know how to make this any more clear.

Your presistance in attacking me for getting a correct town read off of someone who's basically legendary for being easy to get correct town reads off of is becoming increasingly odd here.

As to your second point: You thought she was obvtown. What better reason is there for scum to kill someone?

That's possible, sure. That being said, she did get 3 votes at one point. Also, her clearly stated intention was to push for a Beaver lynch today; scum are always going to take that kind of thing into account, and if scum wanted a beaver mislynch, there's no reason they couldn't have left her alive and killed her the next day instead.

Is this kind of thing a 100% reliable scum tell? Of course not. But if you don't think that scum take that kind of thing into account at least to some extent when making their kill choices, you're crazy.

That said, YosC, can you please give your read on Gummybear?

By the end of day 1, I had a mild pro-town read on gummybear, for reasons I explained back then.

That being said, gummy's day 2 posting has been pretty terrible all around. Gummy bear has been slowly drifting down all day into and through my null category, and I'd currently consider them borderline scummy.

-Yos

[Yosarian2]

But why now? The timing doesn't seem to fit with any honest appraisal of the game. You stayed on FD far longer than it was doing any good. So one might think, fine, they're tunneling. But if you're really tunneling, why wouldn't you wait until the last possible moment to change your vote? So it looks like you tried to look like you were tunneling to justify the earlier wagon hop, but then dropped the tunnel as soon as there was a viable counterwagon to your own. Which says playing to survive to me.

That's not how I read it. They were unwilling to vote for Beaver when that was the main other wagon, because they thought beaver was town. On the other hand, they made very clear back when DaSpot had no votes that they'd be willing to lynch him:

FinalDestination is not getting lynched today. Even if he is scum, your vote is not helping to lynch scum. You know this.

Frankly, none of our top suspects have a lot of votes. We're not going to compromise onto a wagon we view as strictly worse than our current wagon unless we have some pressing reason to - either because we believe the pressure will give interesting reactions or because there's a deadline or because the wagon isn't that much worse than our current one.

We would compromise onto a daspot wagon.

We may have been 3rd in the vote count for FES but who came up with that good as balls case? hmmm... oh right us.

If you're going to make this claim, back it up.

P.S. Yes, you were pushing the wagon.

Frogito Ergo Sum, in post 450, you pointed out a number of things from DaSpotthatkillsu's behavior toward Unicorn Brethren early on Day 1. Would the possibility that those 3 posts you linked in the first paragraph came from 2 different heads make any difference to your read?

'
No, it makes no difference to our read. We actually discussed it together when discussing daspot and came to the conclusion that one head is probably backtracking for the other's awful position.

Note that this attack on DaSpot, and this expressed willingess to vote for him, came at a point when daspot had zero votes. Hardly looks like a real attempt to get a counterwagon going.

I was expecting the FES jump on to the DaSpot wagon; it was quite clear that he was willing to do so from his previous post. The fact that people like Grey are attacking him for it now makes me wonder if people actually are even reading FES's posts. Grey's "FES is unreadable" comment is especially odd, and I'd like to hear it explained.

[Yosarian2]

... I just checked...

yos: please point it out?

when did he NOT openly vote beaver? I'd expect some kind of defense of beaver if he didn't like instead of saying why beaver was town he called the wagon scum.

I defended beaver... where did he?

First, when he was being attacked for not voting Beaver, on the assumption that he should have been voting Beaver instead of FD because Beaver was the bigger wagon, he said this:

We're slightly baffled by the suggestion that we should be voting beaverweasel, considering we had a much stronger scum read on final destination yesterday.

Later, when asked about what he thought about the Beaver case, he called it "null".

All right, so we know now that you meant that BeaverWeasel's case was bad. What does that say about BeaverWeasel's alignment?

That depends to a great extent on what type of players it contains. They've struck us as Mastinesque so far, which would make it fairly null.

So, in a situation where he was at significant risk of being lynched, he did not join the large Beaver wagon, which could have saved his life at the time, he didn't even verbally support the Beaver wagon, and instead said that he thought the scumtells Beaver had done were actually null, and instead stuck to his guns and stuck to his scum read, even when no one else supported him.

THe only way FES could possibly be scum here is if he's scum with Beaver, and that seems unlikely.

Also, he did the same thing on day 1, refuisng to join the US mislynch wagon (what we now now was a mislynch) in order to stay on his main scum read.

Okay. Where is the scum bit? where?

You asked me why I thought about FES. I answered, giving a lot of reasons for my thoughts. You ignored everything I said, just called it "lame", and attacked me for using the word "obvious". The way you chose to respond was incredibly scummy; I don't think you actually are trying to figure out anyone's alignment, not FES's or mine, or else you would have responded in your inital post to some of the actual points I raised; I think you're just trying to force through a mislynch through sheer volume at this point.

I'm THIS close from flaming THE FUCK out of you.

heh. You're now *threatening* to flame me for calling you scum? That's classic.

Go for it. I dare you. It'll just make your bullshit that much more obvious and get you lynched that much faster, and you know it.

-Yos

[Yosarian2]

YosFlavouredCayke

: Who's town?

FES is by far the most clearly pro-town person in this game. I can't believe you just ignored everything I said and voted for him anyway.

Lord Fonzi is probably town.

Unicorn Brethren is stlll probably town, although frustrating. Fritzler trying to hammer whenever given the chance (if that was him) is null for him.

I guess I'm going to have to say greymarble is likely town, although I hate his play today.

Copper is null-ish. Much of his posting is good, but I dislike the way he tried to force FES off of his FD vote on the grounds that "FD won't be lynched today". Not because Copper thought FD was scum, not because it wasn't a logical vote; just because Copper didn;t think FD was going to be lynched. Considering how early in the day this way, and how much stuff can happen, I dislike this justification; there's nothing wrong with sticking with your #1 suspect for a while early in the day, and there's really no way of predicting that early in the day that someone absolutly won't be lynched. The way FES stood up to this pressure, kept his vote where he thought it was best, and let Copper put him at lynch -2 rather then give into the pressure and join the Beaver wagon, join the votes on me, or join some other wagon, is behavior that I basically consider 100% proof of pro-town motive on the part of FES.

I'm going to have to say I'm null on you right now. The biggest thing in your favor right now is that I don't think you're likely to be scum with Beaver, i don't think you're likely to be scum with Spot, and I don't think you're likely to be scum with Gummy; as it is, while I'm not a fan of a lot of your posts, I have trouble coming up with a plasuable scumgroup that could include you in it.

I'm going to be generous and call FD null for now. He was incredibly scummy, then he briefly made some posts that seemed kind of town-ish, now he's at best a quasi-lurker. (not actually a lurker, but when he posts, it has next to no content).

Like i said, currently leaning scum on gummybear. they seemed kind of null-townish day 1, but their posting today has been aweful.

Spot and Beaver are still my two top lynch choices.

[Yosarian2]

OOOOOH missed the chance to vote GummyVT and salvage your scumminess, SPECIALLY since we got a day to deadline.

O WELL.

I've already made clear that if I can't get DaSpot lynched today, I'm going to vote gummy. We've got time left, though, and the DaSpot wagon is still the second biggest one; I'm not willing to give up on it just yet.

And you're calling me scum because my reads are BAD? How the FUCK can you compare D1 of a hydra game to D2 of a game I replaced in as?

Replacements by default have 10000% (real statistic) better reads then people stuck in the psyche of a game.

*shrug* That's reasonable; I would expect you to do somewhat better in that situation. Still, in that game, you replaced in and instantly nailed an entire scum game. On day 1 of this game...you voted for Ether. Who by this point already looked so obviously pro-town I wouldn't have believed someone who claimed cop and who claimed to have a guilty on her. That's a pretty big gap. And then, of course, you voted for FES, and then you voted for me.

Now, being wrong on day 1 isn't a very strong scumtell, but in this case, it was so glaring I pretty much had to take notice. It was frustrating, though, not being able to talk about my reasons without risking ruining the Dilemma mafia game.

[Yosarian2]

Still here. Still willing to hammer. *twiddles thumbs*

Was kind of hoping we'd see some informative last minute action going on before deadline, but that's seeming less likely. I'm not even sure if there's enough people online to do anything right now.

[Yosarian2]

(AGar)

RayFrost is curious to the reasoning of your interest in Incognito's reactions, Yos.

I strongly suspect Incog to be scum here. When Incog is scum, he acts in a reasonable manner when he's confronted with solid arguments, but then goes ahead and does whatever helps his scum team win anyway even if it conflicts with his earlier "reasonable" behavior. That is exactally what it feels like here. First, he calls me town. Then, when I say I suspect him, he starts attacking me. He is reasonable and logical when I make good arugments about FES, but then as soon as I repeat an earlier reason for suspecting him, he ignores everything and just puts me at lynch -1. It's not like I even said anything new in the post he's voting me for, but it dosn't matter to him. Notice he dosn't even bother to say what, exactally, he dosn't like in that post.

This does not look like incog-town behavior. I really doubt that he would act this way as town. He needs to explain himself, and he need to do it right now, because I'm pretty sure he just did an absolutly ironclad example of an incognito scumtell here.

[Yosarian2]

Since it was obvious that you weren't actually a jailkeeper, that's not at all what I was doing.

The whole post of yours is BS, and obviously so, but this is especially silly. You thought it was "obvious I wasn't actually a jail-keeper" at the end of the day yesterday, and yet you quick-hammered Fate, after he unclaimed cop but before the rest of the town had a chance to comment on his new claim?

Your behavior at the end of the Fate wagon MIGHT have made sense if you thought I was town and he was scum at the time. If you thought my roleclaim was "obviously false", though, then your hammer makes no sense at all.

[Yosarian2]

Lawl. Where did we claim to be a doctor? Scummy mcscum scum is a bit quick on the draw there.

I breadcrumbed doctor by saying that he should get protection from a doctor. I was very careful to try and phrase it in a way that didn't give away whether or not we were the doctor. I think you picked up on it and roleblocked us so you could kill Daspot.

Also, you notice I said "If matermate is roleclaiming doctor". I certainty did notice the way you tried to keep your claim as ambiguous as possible there. Either way, though, it dosn't matter. You can't possibly be town here, and that should be obvious to everyone. And if you're scum, and you haven't hammered Copper yet, then Copper is also confirmed scum. GG

[Yosarian2]

Don't bother pretending, PC. We lynched scums.

Yeah, we obviously did. You've got to appreciate the effort of PC and Mastermate lying right up through twilight, even after they're so completely caught, though.

[Yosarian2]

Looking back at the thread, I notice stuff like Fonz scolding me and you for "town on town fighting", Incog. Lol, that's impressive. It's really no wonder I kept reading him as town; he kept saying things that made sense, and that he would have said as town. Got to keep a closer eye on that guy next time I play with him.

Eh. I think the worst thing the town did this game was that there were these two big blocks of pro-town people fighting each other, and then at the end of every day, we'd compromise lynch someone else completly, and then go back to fighting the next day.

[Yosarian2]

I have a question: do you still think your N1 choice for Jailkeep was the most optimal?

Based on what I knew at the time? I think it was a reasonable choice. I blocked someone I thought was scum, but who hadn't been attacked in thread yet, which is pretty much optimal for roleblockers and trackers.

I really don't like the idea of trying to use a jailkeeper as a doctor to try and target people you think look town, in general, unless you REALLY think you know who the scum are going to kill that night. You'll probably just end up screwing up the cop or something.

[Yosarian2]

How was I supposed to know she was going to be killed, though? She'd just pushed through a lynch on US. I was actually already planning out arguments that night to DEFEND her on day 2 against what I expected to be the inevitable attack on her, lol.

[Yosarian2]

Gah. MOS, I really thought you were town earlier, I acutally had you on my confimed town list, but then when you came out of nowhere and quickvoted me in lynch or lose for reasons that made zero sense, I decided you had to be scum. Why would you do that? You went from treating me as town to suddenly being willing to bet the whole game on me being scum, for zero reason, in a way that made no sense. The "He can't be a jailkeeper, Balam must be lying, so let's lynch Yos" argument was horrible; if the onyl way I could be scum is if Balam was lying, then lynching me instead of lynching Balam made zero sense. The only conclusion I could come to was that you were scum and were trying to get steal a sudden win.

Well, the way I saw it, it was a two-fold possibility. Either you were a mafia roleblocker, or your were scum with Balam. However, I didn't really see Balam being scum without you, since he could have just let you be lynched. Also, we didn't quickvote you. There was a fair amount of discussion before we placed our vote. It finally got to the point where I couldn't see myself changing my mind about you being scum, so we placed our vote. That was a mistake because we were wrong, but if you want to blame someone for quickvoting, look to yourselves instead. How could you completely fail to consider the numerous games where a townie has voted another townie in LYLO and the scum haven't quicklynched?

My vote for you didn't really have much to do with the vote on me, specficially. It was a combination of things. First, you ORDERED me to not protect Spot, who was then killed that night. Then you had that aweful, aweful quasi-claim of yours when it was your turn to claim, where you looked like you were about to claim doctor, then it looked like you unclaimed when realized that if you'd actually claimed roleblocked doctor it would have confirmed me as town.

You seemed to be treating me as confimred scum based on nothing, which didn't make any sense; suspicion on me before Balam claimed was completly reasonable and I expected it, but after Balam claimed and claimed he had investigated me and I showed up as jailkeeper, there was no rational grounds for suspicion on me. It would have taken the biggest, dumbest, most hair-brained and irrational gambit ever for it to have gone off like that. And even when I pointed that out, you didn't seem to care, responding with a silly "Oh, I always do that kind of gambit as scum", which was just silly. NO ONE has EVER done a "I'm going to breadcrumb that my partner is a jailkeeper, and then he's going to refuse to claim, and I'm going to threaten to hammer him, and he'll stay at lynch -1 for 24 hours, and then..." gambit, lol, and for good reason. It seemed like you were treating me as town for most of the day, you actually hammered Fate, and then all of a sudden you were treating me as scum even though Balam's claim was now confirmed by Fate's flip, and it didn't make any sense at all.

Really, it seemed like you had done a really good job at faking town, and then at lynch -1, you got greedy and irrationally went for a mislynch that didn't make any sense. That was the only conclusion I could come to based on your actions. I was actually seriously considering that Incognito might have been town and FES might have been scum, which is why I didn't take FES up on his offer, but I didn't think you could be town after that play.

[Yosarian2]

Sorry, Ether. If you had stayed alive, the game might have been much less horrible.