A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Kast]

GreyIce is overreacting a lot.

I was gonna disagree with MoI about VIs, then I read #84 & it's exactly what I was gonna say. Let's lynch scummy (regardless of VI status). However, deviation from expected behavior will likely influence whether something done by a specific player is actually scummy or not.

I don't see what the big deal about D1 governor. If the governor screws with the town preferred lynch, we get info & he has to justify himself. But that's prolly not going to happen.

[Kast]

@GreyIce-
I didn't only mean your paranoia about governor power; you're overreacting to almost everyone on almost everything. It rubs me wrong. Do you have any links to past games where you similarly go crazy over nothing?

As far as the governor ability and your question, Governor can't self nominate. If it came down to a 3 player lylo with 2 town and 1 scum, having the 1 scum be the only person who can't become lynch immune is clearly better than the alternatives. Of course, you're asking about a silly isolated situation without considering how we arrive there; it's not really that relevant.

I'm curious though, if you really think it's such an evil/bad/anti-town power, then why the hell are you asking to be made Governor instead of forming a coalition to force a tie and eliminate it?

@Cow's post restriction-
The effort being put into figuring out alternative forms of communication seem pointless. He's been able to communicate so far, and I'm sure he's bright enough to communicate more if he has need.

[Kast]

@Benmage-
Given the choice between:
Lynching scum now and not being able to lynch a VI later
-OR-
Lynching a VI now and not being able to lynch scum later

I'll take the former thanks.

Policy lynch as an excuse to avoid finding/lynching scum is horrible. If you aren't actually pushing/defending that, then please clarify and explain yourself because that's what your post implies.
-Suggesting that we can sit back and let scum do all the work for us reinforces the impression that you're intentionally pushing an extremely anti-town strategy.

[Kast]

@Benmage-
The options directly follow from your objection.
-I proposed we try to lynch scum now. You objected that lynching scum now (or trying to) means we cannot lynch VI's later.
-Your proposal is we lynch VIs now INSTEAD OF trying to lynch scum. If we accept your BS, that waiting until VI's act scummy to lynch them means we will be unable to lynch the scummy VI's then that equally applies to scummy non-VIs who are left to be lynched later.

You presented retarded options, and then went ahead and picked the more retarded and anti-town of the two. I'm trying to find out if you're putting on an act or if you just can't help it.

@Grey-

Yeaaaahhhh. So lets see, I need a majority to agree to give me the power to keep it out of the hands of anyone who will misuse it, but any single townie could put it into someone's hands with one vote/unvote at the end of the day?

Yeah, fuck that noise. We wouldn't need a majority, we'd need a total consensus.

If you want the ability gone and you honestly believe there's a chance it triggers scum powerups, then no governor is clearly better than governor.

Creating a tie is just as easy if not easier than reaching consensus on a governor; it is almost certainly doable with less than a majority and the number of players required scales directly with the size of any counter consensus candidate. Your objection makes your prior complaints sound insincere.

[Kast]

D1 townlists without concrete info behind them are pretty lol.

I'm not seeing the DGB scum case, and Greyice pushing so hard on something so weak/null is weird.

@Theme/Flavor-
I haven't read any of the books, etc. and I haven't taken the time to read the prior games in this series (nor am I very motivated to do so). It sounds like some people are expecting multiple scum teams based on those games? Could someone who actually played the prior games please summarize anything mechanics-wise that is likely to be carried over from those games to this one? Thanks.

[Kast]

@LL, 301-
Dislike this. LL jumping aboard a non-case like this seems out of character. GreyIce's initial objection is more pushing stupid cases as he has been doing all game and seems to be his norm. It may be a scum indicator for some; but GreyIce is so obviously overreacting, jumping around, and not showing serious effort to convincing others to follow through his thoughts, that my gut read is he's a bit ADD.

@Xvart, 320-
This doesn't really read like xvart's scum meta; I'd expect xvart scum to jump aboard one of GreyIce's nonsense cases.

Kast (Post 144) - What would prevent us from lynching scum later? From my experience it becomes increasingly difficult to lynch VIs later in the game either because town cannot afford to mislynch or there are other targets. I don't see how the dichotomy works in the given example.

If you read the context, the claim was that we would be unable to lynch

SCUMMY

VIs later. Unless you can point out some reason being a VI makes us unable to lynch a scummy player that does not equally apply to a non-VI scummy player, then the situations should apply equivalently. The reasons you listed don't apply to a scummy VI and only address lynching a VI for it's own sake.

And to the contrary, if town is stuck deciding between equally scummy players, but one is ALSO a VI, then that's even more reason to lynch the VI. A competent scum can't afford to directly hurt/screw the town the same way a scum with a VI "free pass" can.

What I don't get is why he would antagonize another player like that, over something so trivial.

You realize he is arguing with MoI? Many players get quite antagonized when they get stuck in the middle of an argument with MoI; both scum and town.

@DGB-
Is there a point in asking him to break his post restriction?

@Zoraster, 330-
Lol, I was considering voting LL, but your post is kinda annoying, so I'll wait on that

This question by Kast looks like carefully disguised mudslinging.

You should clarify what you mean by mudslinging, because by any standard usage, you are misapplying the term.

@Governor Power-
If a majority of town prefers that it be burned immediately, then it would be nice if the Governor respects that. I don't think it matters; certainly the end-game doom scenarios that have been used to push for that proposal could all be avoided much more easily by town not being stupid and taking action if we approach one of those doom scenarios.

Also, if we have a competent townie Governor, scum will likely kill the governor before the power can harm them. If we have a scum Governor, then using it in a scummy manner reveals him.

@Magua/Voting-
It's too early to be whining that everyone who is not currently voting is anti-town. Also, your post isn't really a fair/relevant response since he very explicitly stated he would place a vote. Also, to be clear, it sounds like you're reacting with a public service announcement against a playstyle/behavior you dislike; is that correct or are you claiming Mikujin's behavior says anything about him (or is otherwise relevant)?

[Kast]

@Zoraster-
Lol, looking for a place to park a low key vote?

Also, you didn't answer.

This sort of cautious play tends to be scum-motivated because they want to keep their options open down the line,

This is a load of BS. While the majority of players on this site tend to vote early despite having weak or non-existant reads, there's plenty of players, both town and scum, who play cautiously with their votes ESPECIALLY on D1. Your claim that scum are disproportionately more likely to engage in this behavior is unjustified.

[Kast]

Nvm that, mixed you up with Zdenek.

[Kast]

@Zdenek-
Clarify, are you claiming that:
-I lied/mischaracterized GreyIce's behavior
-I tried push GreyIce's "negative but not scummy behavior" as if it was scummy behavior
-Something else...(elaborate)

From context you seem to think any negative judgment about another player/post, regardless of veracity, is mudslinging if it is not an indictment of that player as scum. However, you aren't applying this same criteria to similar posts by others, which makes your objection seem lazy or insincere.

@Mikujin, 401-
Is that a serious vote? It reads like you are just placing a vote to placate the mob and DGB provided the first excuse.

@DGB-
Do you actually expect Cow will break his PR? If not, how does voting/pressuring him accomplish anything?

[Kast]

@DGB-
I get that you think cow is scum faking a post restriction; however, I don't see how demanding that he break it and getting exasperated when others don't agree with you is any different from just letting it pass. I was wondering if you had some kind of plan; but since it doesn't look like it, then it seems you'd be better off trying to convince people that cow is scum. GreyIce's post 472 is...well if you ignore the second half his initial question is valid.

[Kast]

@Mikujin-
I'm sure you think there's a reasonable case on DGB (or at least a defensible case); she's not exactly known for her rock-solid logic and she often comes across as scummy to others. But the timing on your vote in context of you being called out for not voting, rejecting that call-out, then getting some pressure; combined with the attack on DGB coming essentially out of nowhere without DGB really adding anything new, seems more like it's a response to the pressure than a strong conviction that DGB is extremely likely to be scum.

I find her push to get has to break his PR to be scummy for reasons others have stated.

Her push to have cow break his post restriction is pointless for reasons others have stated. Explain how pointless = scummy.

I've seen scum push wagons on DGB plenty of times & her playstyle often encourages it (not a VI, but also not a highly analytical/rational player). I don't think DGB has posted enough (or covered a wide enough range of topics) to generate a good read on her yet.

@Zdenek-
No, it doesn't answer my first question at all. The first question is an expansion/clarification of your answer. You think I did something scummy and label it as "mudslinging". Since it's obviously not mudslinging, but instead a behavior you misapply that term to, you need to clarify why you think that behavior is scummy. Both options I listed are potential explanations implied by your previous statement; but it's ambiguous whether you believe either of them are actually the case.

A simple check of your iso shows that you agreed with nearly all of my assessments of GreyIce's posts as overreactions (you used different words but the same message). Since you claim neither of the two potential scum-motiviations you previously implied were intended, then I have to ask why exactly were you objecting to perceived "mudslinging"?

At this point it looks like you're just throwing out an ambiguous keyword to cast suspicion on me but haven't actually thought it through.

but passing judgments like that can often be useful. For instance, as an explanation why they aren't voting someone.

My posts pointing out that GreyIce's overreactions were overreactions do exactly this. How is your distinction relevant?

@Zoraster-
It's hard to believe that you missed the repeated speculation of cow as Ilyn Payne (it's been present since at least page 6 and referenced on almost every page since).
But it's even less plausible that you "misunderstood" the fishing accusations as referencing your post about cow's name.

@LL-
It's been a while since I played with you, but from that game and skimming others at that time, I had a strong impression that you as town enjoyed finding info about players before jumping on a solid wagon (sort of the playstyle Mikujin espoused then abandoned here). In short, I recall you as a cautious analytical player, but now you're semi-lurky pushing an impulsive throwaway case. It feels like hiding under the radar.

VOTE: LL

Also, Zoraster's scum-read on LL is probably distancing.

[Kast]

@GreyIce-
If your catch was legit, you'd have a good point on xvart. It's not, and a simple ISO easily makes that clear since xvart included the post numbers for reference.

GreyICE is town.

If you're as confident that GreyICE is town as it seems you are, why are you still raising Twilight Sparkle?

Because you can have a town read on someone you don't trust to use the power, for one?

For reference, this is the kind of *mistake* that it seems like you keep overreacting to and assuming the perpetrator must be scum for committing. From a GreyIce-Town PoV, you should be able to see how such a mistake isn't necessarily an indicator of affiliation.

@Vig-fishing-
Zoraster wasn't exactly vig-fishing, but his comment is the kind that often prompts weak players to claim "I'm not a vig" and thereby narrow down the potential vig pool.

@Zoraster-
You were accused of rolefishing/vig-fishing. You acted as if the accusation was in reference to claiming to know cow's character name. It wasn't. I don't think you're so dense as to make that mistake even once, let alone repeatedly. I think you are playing the "lost and confused townie" card, but it doesn't really fit you. However, I think LL is a more dangerous player as scum so for now I'm happy with LL getting pressed/pushed further.

@DGB-
Is your bussing comment directed at Zoraster or at me?
Pre-edit: I've also always enjoyed my games with you, so please don't replace out over GreyIce.

[Kast]

@Diddin-
The Raivann case has merit.

@Chess-
It seems like you are putting lots of effort into being a VI. Why?

@LL-
Thoughts on anything other than Mikujin? (Rehashing MoI on xvart-"tell" is fine, anything else?)

@Xtoxm-
Content please.

@LMP, 587-
How does it not make sense? Zoraster tried to distance on LL while coasting along. I engaged his throwaway comments, he tried to appease me by buddying and bussing LL.

@Zdenek-
-Yes, that's kinda the point behind asking for it. I didn't expect him to provide anything, but if he did, that would have been nice.
-Mudslinging as a general term refers to discrediting a person or position by attacking negative characteristics the subject. However, in the context of a mafia game, it more specifically refers to malicious attacks aimed at negative aspects of a person/position

instead of

attacks aimed at legitimate problems with the person/position.

This is frequently used to falsely implicate someone as scum by attacking negative aspects of the person's character, even though those aspects don't actually indicate affiliation.

--In our context, I discredited GreyIce's weak attacks by legitimately pointing out that they are overreactions. To call that "mudslinging" AND claim it is a scum-tell, is inconsistent with your own behavior which similarly called the same posts "exaggerations" etc, and inconsistent with not attacking others who posted similarly to GreyIce and others.
--Also in our context, you are claiming the italicized portion, despite the fact that I did not and am not pushing GreyIce as probable scum, and to the contrary, pointed out his overreactions as neutral/null.

You attacked GreyICE for things that don't have an obvious bearing on his alignment. The scum motivation for it is that it allows scum to paint someone as scummy for no real reason, simply because it is easy for others to conflate negative aspects of a person with scummy ones.

This is equivalent to:

-I tried push GreyIce's "negative but not scummy behavior" as if it was scummy behavior

Why did you say it was "something else"?

Your claim that dismissing GreyIce's bad cases are "attacks" on GreyIce is a pretty big misrepresentation.

@Zoraster, 598-
Lol. I pressure you, you buddy me and vote my [LL] case.
MoI pressures you, you buddy him and vote his [Raivann] case.

Appeasement much?

@Everyone – I invite you to review Zoraster’s ISO for yourself. Draw your own conclusions about the honestly of his scum-hunting.

I think it's clear how I feel on Zoraster, and he'd be fine as a deadline compromise. However, I think LL is a far more capable-scum player and in that sense a better lynch for today.

[Kast]

Lol

[Kast]

@Zdenek-
-So, you choose to believe the question is insincere and thus ignore it. Having ignored it, you conclude that instead of

ASKING HIM FOR META TO CLARIFY HIS POSITION

I was instead

STATING THAT HIS POSITION IS SCUMMY

. If you pick and choose parts to believe and parts to ignore, then it's easy to create a BS justification like you are doing now.
-To say something rubs me wrong is, if anything, a gut read which by is practically by definition not an attempt to convince others of anything.
--I could somewhat buy your claim that you thought the phrase "rubs me wrong" in isolation implies I suspect GreyIce. However, I don't see at all how you can possibly claim the rest of my posts support that.
-The two are equivalent. "Paint[ing]

someone as scummy

for no real reason" is the same as "pushing not-scummy behavior as if it was scummy". Objection to the verb "paint" instead of "push" is semantics. I guess you're trying to justify your modified position.

The first one only requires that one [push] someone for things that have no bearing on their alignment and then allows others to construe that the negative behaviour is scummy, but in the second, the person making the initial attack has to [paint] the person's behaviour as though it is scummy.

Your first statement is incomplete. By stating the bold portion, you REQUIRE an affiliation judgment (direct or implicit).

Additionally, your claim that the phrase "rubs me wrong" indicates suspicion of GreyIce is admission that you are pushing this:

[Kast] tried push GreyIce's "negative but not scummy behavior" as if it was scummy behavior

it's with you asking him a question that I don't think that you ever intended him to answer, and saying that his behaviour rubbed you the wrong way.

Lol, this is completely new
-Your prior objection was mudslinging by using the words "overreacting", "paranoid", and "crazy".
--Please clarify your problem with asking a question that you think I did not wanted him to answer.
--Please clarify your problem with players stating that something "rubs them wrong".

@Raivann-
To be clear, your reason for suspecting Song/Thor is that you think someone who likes this game theme (Song) would only replace out if he got a scum role. Is that accurate?

@Cow-
Great, please shoot LL or Zoraster. I'd prefer LL, but either one works.

To the best of my knowledge, LL's town meta is to patiently read other posts, ask clarifying questions, and avoid pushing any cases until he has a solid read. In this game, he's not paying much attention, he made an early almost RVS vote, then proceeded to tunnel on his first vote target.

@Chess, 653-
What would offering yourself as a lynch accomplish?

@Shadow, 665-
A night vig should shoot his suspects who are unlikely to be lynched. A dayvig who offers to shoot based on a town

vote

should be treated as a second lynch.

@LL-
I think you're a capable player in general. I don't hold the same opinion of Zoraster.

@Cow-
If you're intending to kill based on the vote counts, then Zoraster is preferable to Raivann, but a Raivann kill wouldn't be so bad either.

VOTE: Zoraster

@DGB-
How does your read on cow and his post restriction change based on his day vig claim?

[Kast]

@Cow-
Also, if you're planning to shoot today, it would be great if you can name your target by tonight/tomorrow so there's time for a claim and evaluation.

[Kast]

@Zoraster-
No

[Kast]

@LL-
I haven't read any of your recent games. If you can link to some town games where you demonstrate a playstyle closer to your current one than what I recall, that would be appreciated.

@Dayvig-
Good call cow.

Xtoxm's town list makes Zoraster a more appealing target. I'll keep my vote there.

@Mod-

Not going to be around til Tuesday. Then I will probably be out of the country for business starting either Thursday or Friday and ongoing for 1-2 weeks. I should have internet access during the trip, but it will be limited.

[Kast]

Checking in. As stated previously, I'll have reduced access for about a week or two.

To be clear, I no longer suspect LL; I think Zoraster's claim and flip pretty much confirm LL is who Zoraster claimed, and it seems flavor would strongly indicate that LL's character is a Lannister.

At the moment, the two players who I'm most suspicious of are danakillsu and Zdenek. I think the Raivann case is a plausible third.

I don't think Ghostlin's post 965 reads sincerely; I agree BunnyLover hasn't posted much thats been actively helpful to town, but using that & the nonsense about ISO21 read like he's justifying a vote he doesn't actually believe. Other posts seem more like he's trying to figure things out.

VOTE: dana

Nominate: Zdenek

[Kast]

Access is limited atm and it's late. I've skimmed through but some posts aren't loading so will have to check again when I have a better connection. The biggest thing that stood out was Benmage's attempt to coerce town; it's a blatantly anti-town move and there's absolutely no reason for any townie to abandon their reads in response to the threat. If Benmage's arguments for why your scum suspects are probable town are convincing, then fine change your minds; but if you disagree with him, then just vote your suspects; we gain lots of info if Benmage burns the governor to save prob-scum.

[Kast]

Apologies all for being absent; have been extremely busy. I'll be back from my trip on Friday and should be able to catch up then.

[Kast]

I'll try to get caught up tonight.

I did read this page (53) and I liked LMP's case on Feysal.

I'll make sure to pay attention to that while catching up.

[Kast]

There's a lot of posts and not that much actually going on. Order within categories doesn't indicate anything. To be honest, I'm not really motivated much for this game; I hope things pick up more in D3.

I'm dismayed to see the amount of blind obedience to

Spoiler: Benmage's blatantly anti-town power play.

My gut read on that situation is Benmage let the governor power enhance natural arrogance; so I don't think it's a scum tell. I do think it's doing a heckuva job bogging this game and creating smokescreens for scum to dither around and waste time jumping around while buddying to the Governor.

At this point, I'm ok with a VOTE: Feysal and

Nominate: BL

Town (Thor these are really the only town reads that make any sense for townies to oppose lynching...anyone else is lol):

Hasdgfas

- confirmed via Day Vig

Locke Lamora

- confirmed via Zoraster

Beats No-Lynch:

xvart

- He's playing like town meta and not playing his scum meta.

LynchMePls

- Gut town read and liking most of what he's posted. Disliked this bit (and the stuff that was similar to it).

Seeing as how the town GAVE HIM A GOVERNOR, I think he does in fact get to dictate who we're allowed to vote.

This is wrong. He does get to veto a single player. If he wants to veto a player that town wants to lynch, then town should hold him to that and he should use the power to do what he says. As it is, he's just letting his ego run wild, providing half baked cases, and congratulating people who listen to him and provide cases for his preferred lynches. Meanwhile, he's protected the two most suspected players and allowed them free reign to continue playing as anti-town as possible without any repercussions. Raivann and BunnyLover are so safe, they can directly press our claimed vigs for more role info, and even after being told to stop it, they still each pushed without any repercussions.

Thor665

- Gut town read. Reads somewhat like a stubborn town. I may be unintentionally giving him some credit as a VI.

Shadow1psc

- Gut town read. Reads a bit like a follower/weaker townie, but I like that he's staying vocal about his Raivann read despite the coercion.

Neutral:

Magua

- Been very reasonable, but that seems to be his playstyle and not an alignment tell.

MagnaOfIllusion

- Hard to read. Has been fairly reasonable with a few exceptions. Actually on catchup I'm glad he isn't giving BM's protected players completely free passes. Also, I think you asked if anyone was buddying you and you hadn't mentioned it; there looks to be lots of buddying between you and BM; I'm not sure if you mentioned him, but I didn't see any mention of that in my catchup. I'm assuming some of this is just because you agree with each other on a lot.

DTMaster

- Greyice was overactive and too emotional. He was probable genuinely upset with many players, and that kinda masked his affiliation. DTMaster hasn't posted enough to develop a read.

DrippingGoofball

- Some of the early pressure on DGB seemed opportunistic; if we see scum flips among early attackers, I'll likely shift DGB to a higher category. Not really contributing, but that's not unexpected.

Nexus

- Had a neutral read on Nexus, but not really pleased with the rolling over for Benmage. If Nexus has a strong scum-read on Raivann, he should simply ignore Benmage's blustering and vote his suspect. A Raivann lynch at that point seemed fairly likely. If Benmage really opposes the Raivann lynch, then he can use his power. No big loss to town. Rolling over and letting a single unconfirmed player decide on our lynches for 1+ days is ridiculous.

Benmage

- Initially some reasonable behavior/explanations, however, since being nominated Hand, that's been replaced with mostly anti-town actions and an unreasonable expectation that people should just treat him like confirmed-town while blindly follow his direction.

Spoiler: BM's Craplogic at the center of his approved list

The claim that Dana/Shadow/BL all must be town due to not jumping on Zoraster lynch is nonsense. Scum VIs have equal motivation as town VIs for avoiding scum lynches. Theyalso have the additional motivation of staying off an inevitable mislynch. The further claim that people who recognized Zoraster was scum and voted accordingly are more likely to be scum is ridiculous. I can see him doing his anti-town coercion play out of arrogance as a townie; but it is also possible he's attempting to protect a buddy among his protected candidates.

So stop bitching... I'm giving the town direction for the day. And its working.

This is a blatant lie. There's lots of support for either a BL or a Raivann lynch today. You've added "direction" that's bogged down town and protected the two players that were pretty much universally recognized and admitted as the scummiest players in the entire day.

Ghostlin

- Initially had him as an acceptable lynch, but on re-read, I revised this to neutral on account of his posts sounding more genuine than I remembered on the first read.

Twilight Sparkle

- Not really seeing the case on Twilight Sparkle.

Spoiler: What I have seen...

Seems to be mostly just a claim that TS isn't contributing as much as others expect and disagreement with MoI/Benmage. However, the Feysal/TS potential links should probably be reviewed again if Feysal flips scum.

And Magna is the kind of player who needs to be tackled with a huge post with headings, subheadings and bulletpoints.

Lol, not really. MoI's the kind of player if you need to lynch him, you better have some damn solid investigation results from at least one trusted townie and/or some flipped townies. Solid arguments don't work since he's good at building a large wall to bury them under.

Acceptable Lynch:

Setael

- Low content. I didn't like the initial case on Mikujin, but his abrupt abandoning of his stated position/beliefs in response to the threat of pressure seemed like scum appeasement. A lot of his arguments felt like misunderstandings without interest in clearing them up.

Raivann

- Generally scummy play. The case on SoFaI, the blatant buddying/declaration of towniness of anyone who doesn't want to lynch him, and the role fishing reads scummy. This is a case of a scummy VI; Benmage's insistence on protecting him doesn't really fit his earlier talk about lynching VIs regardless of how scummy they are.

Preferred Lynch:

Bunnylover

- Generally scummy/careless play. If Benmage is using the Hand to protect scum, BL seems the most likely candidate. This is another case of a VI acting scummy, and I'm surprised MoI isn't pushing this harder (to be fair he still has pushed it).

Feysal

- I like LMP's thoughts on Feysal. Also the point Magua and I think someoen else raised

If there's two scumteams, then doesn't that completely invalidate the "Feysal slipped knowing that there's only one scumteam D1" theory?

LMP's case holds for Feysal being scum and assuming a single scum team or being scum and assuming DGB/

Zoraster

was the other scum team (with LL obviously not being Feysal's team).

Danakillsu

- He's a more capable player than he's acting like. I doubt he would actually slip and make the mistakes that he claims; though I can easily see him as scum "pretending" to make those mistakes and hoping nobody calls him on them.

Zdenek

- I've liked Zdenek's D2 posts much more than D1. I'll have to think on this a bit more and may move him up a category.

[Kast]

@Dana-
There's several mistakes. Individually, I could believe them as simple mistakes. Taken as a whole, it's unlikely they were all mistakes. These also happen to be mistakes of the type where there is obvious scum motivation for each one; as opposed to mistakes that don't indicate affiliation in any way.
-Blindly accepting GreyICE's misrepresentation of xvart's post.
-Mistaking the Nominations of Envoy as a positive thing(?).
-Completely misreading/misrepresenting Benmage's post as a completely implausible scum claim.
This is a separate point from the mistakes, but I also thought your heavy D1 buddying of DGB was eye-raising.

@Setael-
Mikujin read:

Low content. I didn't like the initial case on Mikujin, but his abrupt abandoning of his stated position/beliefs in response to the threat of pressure seemed like scum appeasement.

Setael read: A lot of [her] arguments felt like misunderstandings without interest in clearing them up.

At your prompting I did an ISO and it changed my impression somewhat. The things I noted which gave me a feeling that you were misunderstanding things without being interested in clearing them up were primarily some throwaway comments in your first post, as well as most of your criticisms of LMP and some of your posts to MoI. These points were mostly dropped after minimal follow up or dropped without any follow up.

However, your ISO reveals you were pretty thorough in chasing down your three primary suspects this game (Feysal, BunnyLover, and to a lesser degree Nexus). I agree with the sentiment that it is extremely odd when you dropped Feysal; insisted you still thought he was scum; then returned to him explicitly because you thought he was scum. There's a disconnect in your in between position stating you still thought he was scum but having some other reason for wanting to leave him be.

The impression I'm getting from some (not all but maybe 1/3 of your posts) of your attacks on Feysal and BunnyLover is that you might be bussing; the minor attacks thrown in at LMP seem aimed to plant early doubt in the event that he successfully drives a lynch of Feysal-scum.

@Ben's list-
To be clear, with 3 or so days until deadline, I agree that now would be an absolutely abysmal time to attempt a strong push/switch to a non-approved target such as BL. I can't fairly complain since I haven't been here for the past week or so, but there is and has been support for a BL lynch from long ago; this has been stopped and the day drawn out to deadline as a direct result of BM's threats.

@DGB-
You may be right about both. I have them both as more neutral reads. I don't have any current plans to specifically iso either of them, unless of course new information surfaces.

@Nexus about Setael-
From ISOing Setael, her move to you seems to make sense and is consistent with her other play. Timing doesn't appear to correlate with your V/LA as much as it correlates with pressure on Feysal.

I think the unvote Feysal itself is pretty odd and still doesn't really make sense. However, if Setael was going to vote anyone after unvoting Feysal, it's entirely consistent and expected that she would vote Nexus at that point in time.

@

Dana

-
Deadline's coming up. There's no support for a Zdenek lynch. You appear to agree that Feysal is suspicious but

not as suspicious as

Zdenek. Is that correct? Please indicate if you will switch to Feysal to prevent a no lynch.

@

Ghostlin/DTMaster/Shadow/TS/Thor

-
Your vote is currently wasted. We're 3-4 days from deadline. Please pick a lynch so we have time for a claim and time to evaluate.

The obvious self-preservation vote for TS is on Feysal. If TS plans to not do this, please say so and explain. If you plan to do this, then let's see some action.

[Kast]

@LMP-
In case you were asking where I see Raivann using his free pass to rolefish, it's here, then after MoI finally calls him on it he plays dumb (while posting something random that may have been more fishing), then acts like nothing happened.

His votes have also been almost exclusively sheeping & buddying

with people who don't suspect him

. Even his Thor case is finally dropped when people start suggesting 1 of Thor/Raivann is likely scum; at which point he completely drops Thor from must be lynched to null.

@Hito-

We'll obviously lynch Feysal at deadline if needed.

With 3-4 days to go and L-4 on the largest wagon, we're

AT

deadline. If your intent is to wait until the 11th hour; please be more clear.

Regarding your case on Zdenek, I thought it was pretty weak on first read through, I still find it pretty weak on second review. I don't think it's at all valuable or necessary to hold a long discussion about it this close to deadline, but to meet you halfway, I'll spoiler a simple response to it.

Spoiler: Hito/Mina's case

Point 1: Pure semantic argument trying to play with meaningless technicalities and make flawed analogies. You flat out implied that a nigh confirmed townie is an SK. Zdenek did not do the same no matter how much you try to twist his statement.
Point 2: Agreed that Zdenek is buddying/sheeping MoI/Benmage/Magua lot more on D2*. However, it's fallacious to claim that someone agreeing with something that they missed the first time around is being inconsistent since he

missed it until it was pointed out to him

. Whether you think Zdenek is faking agreement with MoI/Benmage/Magua; that doesn't make his behavior inconsistent.
*Point 3: MoI and Magua are two of the more rational/analytical players in this game AND are actively commenting on almost everything. Even if you don't agree with everything they say, there's bound to be some agreement, especially for players who fell behind and need to catch up. Zdenek's buddying is a tad beyond the norm, and would be a reason to keep him in the "Acceptable Lynches" category.
Point 4: Your catch of Zdenek espousing the merits of discussing cow's post restriction and also attacking you for doing the same is a relevant point. The rest are meaningless (both of you are pushing meaningless BS).
Point 5: This is a non-point. If you object to Zdenek's reason for suspecting dana, then share that and why. There's nothing inconsistent about suspecting someone but also disagreeing with a bad case made against your suspect. Maintaining a scum read from D1 into D2 is a crap-logic reason to suspect someone.

@Dana-
I really shouldn't need to be so explicit about this, but since your answer is ambiguous, out of Feysal and TS, which would you prefer to switch to?
Do you think it is valuable for our D2 lynch candidate to claim prior to being lynched? Please vote accordingly.

Spoiler: Types of mistakes with 'NO scum motivation' or at least not very obvious/direct motivation could include

-Posting in the wrong game thread
-Mixing up a player name
-Messing up formatting/quote tags/hyperlinks
-Misattributing a quote/post that doesn't have relevance to the poster's affiliation
-Lots of more stuff

[Kast]

@Feysal Lynch-
We're at 7 + 3 who would switch to avoid a no-lynch (Magua, TS, Dana). Feysal should start putting together a defense sooner than later.

[Kast]

@DGB-
Switching to a number 3 wagon 2 days before deadline

in response to that wagon announcing it's going to switch at deadline

is equivalent to claiming preference for no-lynch over one of your top suspects.

@TS-
Wow, can't believe I read all that. I'm not sure I should have as it's mostly rehash.

Kast, you're working awfully hard to drive us off the zdenek wagon. But I see you called us "wasted voters" while NOT naming anyone else on the zdenek wagon as wasting their vote. Why is that?

Posts like this betray that you're not reading properly/carefully. I EXPLICITLY named Dana who was one of the 4 on the Zdenek wagon.

Feysal is another who will obviously not vote himself. BunnyLover is the last who is going to lose her vote come deadline.

Your vote was listed as wasted along with the others who were not voting a real wagon and had not named a preferred suspect of the two. I gave you an explicit and personal note with questions that very clearly and explicitly states why you should switch.

@Feysal's Claim-
I'm disinclined to believe Feysal's claim. If he thought he'd get lynched regardless of his claim, then lying to be a voyeur let's him potentially draw counter-claims. If he's unsure of whether his claim helps him, then picking Kast is pretty much the safest bet for someone unlikely to be targeted by anyone.

@BM-

I dont think most would call Seteal the most scummiest. (Maybe just noobs and scum…which are you again?) You, yourself put him in as acceptable lynch but not preferred. Inconsistent? Trying to make me sound meaner than I am?
- Backfired?

I never mentioned Setael as the most scummiest. This is a serious misrepresentation that's completely ridiculous given you quoted me immediately before explicitly naming the two players you protected who were top suspects for today.

Yeah...Curse giving people away the opportunity to catch up in thread! ( )

Damn the LMPv Feysal Sparkle V Zed cases.... ANTITOWN!!! All of it!

Tomorrow No speaking! Just VOTING! (sarcasm )

None of your sarcasm is relevant. If we successfully lynch anyone today, it'll be against all your best efforts to stop that. Tomorrow: don't be so anti-town.

@Dana-
The difference between you making a mistake and BM making a mistake is that BM has made it explicitly clear from the moment he became Hand that he has no interest in actually scumhunting or paying attention to this game OTHER THAN to make threats and watch everyone dance around to his tune. He's admitted he's not paying attention and doesn't care what anyone thinks of it. You haven't adopted the same attitude.

@Thor-
Pay attention to the game. Also, fix your vote. You're admittedly deciding between 2 or 3 of your top town reads. It really shouldn't matter that much which of them you vote; except that a vote for Zdenek is a vote for no lynch.

@TS/BL/Dana/DGB/Thor-
I'm realistically the only other player who is suspicious of Zdenek who is not currently voting him. CUT THE CRAP AND VOTE A VIABLE CANDIDATE.

@Cow-
You're a townie. Act like one. We have less than a day or it's no lynch.

@Shadow-
Thor's not getting lynched today. You're conflicted about Feysal, that's good enough for a compromise lynch. Move.

@Zdenek/Magua/Raivann/MoI-
The people voting Feysal are pretty convinced and unlikely to join your wagon. Our wagon is also bigger and more likely to succeed than yours. If you're waiting until the last moment to switch, it's here.

@BM-
Unless your plan was to ACTUALLY CAUSE A MISLYNCH, then put a vote on a candidate.

@Ghostlin-
If you're paying attention, we're at less than 24 hours to go, we are far away from any lynch, but Feysal is the closest with at least a few people who have said they'll join to avoid the no-lynch. Be one of those people.

[Kast]

You asked Dana in his own line if he would switch to Feysal come deadline. You then had a separate list of five players "wasting their votes". I don't think it's a stretch to say that this implies you are not counting dana as one of those players wasting their votes.

This is a load of BS. You just didn't read carefully. It's EXTREMELY and EXPLICITLY clear that the reason Dana is on his own line is because he HAS STATED SUSPICION OF FEYSAL. The rest are in a different line because they had NOT STATED SUSPICION OF FEYSAL. I EXPLICITLY singled YOU out since DESPITE not suspecting Feysal, the only other option is yourself. There's NOTHING ambiguous about any of that in my post. Your objections only make any sense (and not much at that) when you pick and choose bits while ignoring the lines right above and below.

Good voting.

@Thor-
You said you think all three candidates are town. If you seriously intend a no lynch, then why the hell are you voting one of the candidates you think is town?

@MoI-
Good voting.

I have a question for Ben, if he gets here before day ends.

Are you planning on giving us an arbitrary list of lynches tomorrow, or are we allowed to lynch freely?

I get the point of your question but really it's unnecessary. Tomorrow, if BM pulls the same BS that he did today

EVERYONE IGNORE HIM

.

@Feysal-
Goodposting though I disagree with most of your reads.

BL-Strong disagree. She's been worse than Raivann in terms of actively abusing her immunity today. At least Raivann pretends he's trying to help; BL just keeps throwing up the VI shield which is tantamount to admission that she knows her ideas/actions are bad but is doing them anyway.
Setael-You lose credibility when you claim a weak town tell is equivalent or better than a confirmation via third party flip and mod revealed info.
Thor-Your read ignores the very real possibility that we get a no lynch and learn nothing. If that's Thor's aim (which he's CLAIMED) then your argument does not apply.
DGB-If you didn't notice from playing this game or from people mentioning her meta, she's NOT a highly analytical/logical player. She frequently gets by with gut and relational/emotional play. It can be a valuable second opinion. Focusing on her obvious bluffing as if it's true is wasted effort.
Rest assured, Raivann's blatant scumminess isn't being ignored (despite BM's best efforts). He's definitely one of the players who will get attention tomorrow.

@Non-Feysal Voters-
I didn't want to raise this since it should be obvious and included in your thoughts regardless, but have you considered that a town PR

may have

targeted me last night and just doesn't want out himself to counter-claim Feysal since Feysal should be getting lynched anyway?

It's L-1 and we have 11 hours. Someone fix this. I'm actually partially relieved that we haven't seen a hammer jump in; this is an asymmetric situation in which any Feysal scum-buddies are likely torn between finishing him off or pretending they're MIA and hoping the no lynch saves their buddy. Non-Feysal scum have less incentive to keep Feysal alive since it's an easily defensible hammer and as long as Feysal isn't a buddy there's no real need to keep him alive. Townies have no incentive to allow the no-lynch.

[Kast]

@Thor-
You are flat out lying.

I have an exceedingly minor town read on Zdenek

You EXPLICITLY admitted a town read on Zdenek and initially claimed (in that same post) that you were willing to lynch Zdenek

BECAUSE

it would be preferable to your stronger town reads.

You later changed/updated/modified (whatever you want to call it) your intention from trying to lynch an alternative to Feysal to simply aiming for a no lynch. This is what I was directly responding to. If that is true, then vote for no lynch.

Again, pay attention, it's not complicated or hard to follow.

[Kast]

@Thor-
Please link to any games where you've similarly taken the position that a no lynch is preferable to a lynch of an unconfirmed player on D2.

[Kast]

@Cow-
If you're asking if you should hammer, I say go for it. Feysal's shared final thoughts. Everyone's stated their positions.

@Thor-
You're the one who is getting confused. If you genuinely think nothing is confusing, then does that mean you are faking your confusion?

If you pay attention, you'll note I never said anything about your town reads being equal (straw man much?). The different degrees of your town reads are IRRELEVANT to the point. If all candidates are town reads, then you should not want to lynch any of them. Your lynch options are no lynch or lynch a town read regardless of where you place your vote. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that if you are town, then you won't play against your win con (and if you're scum, you'd act in an indistinguishable manner). Apparently that was giving you too much credit.

-Zdenek is not getting lynched today, and I told you that. Your direct response was IMPLICIT AGREEMENT because it's OBVIOUS. You defended your agreement by claiming you WANT A NO LYNCH.

IN OUR SITUATION, the only viable options are a Feysal lynch or a no lynch. Placing a vote on Zdenek (or TS for that matter) is equivalent to voting No Lynch. Since you've explicitly stated you want a No Lynch, then vote accordingly. If you want to place a vote to stand for your belief's or principles, then vote for someone you think is scum (NOT SOMEONE YOU THINK IS TOWN).

-Pushing a no lynch in early game instead of an unconfirmed player is blatantly anti-town. Even if you are convinced that Feysal will be a mislynch, the town gains information on who was pushing the Feysal wagon, who was against it, and who ignored it. We gain additional information and opportunities to analyze whether any of the people in the prior categories were acting in a townie/scummy manner and gain tons of leads.

Please be clear, are you claiming you don't see the value in town lynching a player and seeing the flip?

[Kast]

@Thor-
To be even more clear, your objection to voting is on par with a player adopting the strategy of immediately lynching any public PR claims. It's horrendously bad.

[Kast]

@Thor-
There's less than 7 hours to deadline. There are NO CANDIDATES with enough support for a majority EXCEPT FOR Feysal.

14) In the event of a deadline ending without a player gaining a majority of votes, there will no lynch. We don't do less than majority here in Westeros.

Votes for anyone other than Feysal ARE votes for NO LYNCH. If you disagreed with this, then you should have stated it earlier; from context you obviously understood and are just trying to make up a BS technicality because otherwise you make absolutely no sense (your technicality fails so you make no sense anyway).

@DGB-
Pretending for one second that you have a 100% guaranteed, mod-confirmed clear of Feysal:
-Which is better, No Lynch or Mislynch?

You DON'T have that clear, so all the more reason to work with town.

[Kast]

@Feysal-
Read more carefully. A PUBLIC clear would have the effects you describe. A potential clear that DGB has would obviously NOT have that effect and is pretty plainly the point I'm asking about.

[Kast]

@Mod-
V/LA til Monday.

@Feysal-
If you have something helpful for town, then go ahead and share it. This mod is on top of things, so it's entirely possible you'll have no time for twilight revelations (rules are not even clear if twilight posts from the lynch are allowed).

@Town-
Please play to win and hammer already.

[Kast]

Hi all,
I'm about 85% convinced Zdenek is scum. I'd like to hear him claim before we enter the limited discussion phase. I have one pending question to the mod; it's unlikely to affect evaluation of Zdenek's claim.

@Magua/Zdenek-
You both explicitly stated you'd switch to Feysal to prevent a No Lynch, but didn't follow through on your promise (there may be a couple others I'm missing). Explain.

@Mod-

Are the table assignments at random? If not, will it be explained how that is done?

VOTE: Zdenek

[Kast]

Because I rock at Cult-hunting. Just saying.

Lulz, not quite how that last game went...

[Kast]

@Thor-
TS was obviously fishing, but that's fine since my post contains a pretty damn obvious implicit claim. I'm not going to share more until Zdenek claims, but suffice to say he's gone back to my top preferred candidate for role-related reasons.

Also, you're pretty bad at logic and making sense. When you make comments as if you are brilliant and baselessly attack/insult actual logical/rational/analytical players as if they are playing at your level, you're just going to annoy them with the pointless ad hom. This doesn't advance the game in any way, it will likely create more distractions & incite them to post off topic crap to address your BS. It's a bit less harmful when you're directing it at a dead player; but I hope you realize you're still being an idiot even if the dead player isn't able to tell you that.

@popsofctown-
Regardless of your much your post-flip analysis makes Feysal obvtown to you; lynching him instead of a no lynch was absolutely better for the town. Further, players who promised to DO THAT but DID NOT were being extremely anti-town.

@TS-
MoI could potentially be a vig kill. He was playing a lot more conservatively and avoiding major confrontations/arguments with people who might have a chance to lynch him. The thing arguing against that would be I doubt LMP would have vigged him and I doubt town has more than 2 vigs and a jack of some trades.

@Dana-
You were insistent on lynching Zdenek yesterday. Why the change?

[Kast]

@Dana-
Nvm, read your iso again and it checks out.

[Kast]

Kast:
AGAIN. I was focused on keeping the number of town DEATHS at a minimum. And I wasn't 100% sure there WAS a Cult (being bastard and all). Though I look forward to playing with you here; hope we're table'd together.

To be clear, I thought you did great as a town force; and I hope you're town in this game. What I disagree with is your ability to ferret out cults

[Kast]

even though I had no scum motivation for stopping his lynch

Avoiding being on a mislynch wagon AND aiming for a no lynch are both major scum motivations.

Zdenek is 85% the SK. The name claim does nothing.

[Kast]

@Magua-
Lulz, you're ignoring a serious PR claim with info incriminating Zdenek as SK to chase DGB's obvious fake/joke claim. Great.

@Town-
We don't have much time to discuss with everyone. Zdenek has clear incentive to refuse claiming anything (as he has done) wait this out and NK me tonight. I'm appalled that everyone seems perfectly happy to let this happen.

[Kast]

@Magua-

As soon as you give this incriminating information on Zdenek, I'll be sure to ask you about it as well. Until then, it means nothing to me.

What the hell? The incriminating info is that he's the SK. Fishing for details about my role is a waste of time as I've already said I'm not giving more until Zdenek claims. If you doubt me then be clear about it and say so. Sitting back and ignoring things isn't helping in any way.

You said you had information you'd give when he claimed. He's not going to claim. Ball's in your court.

No, it's not. The town needs to evaluate and pick a stance. Making this something between me and Zdenek and suggesting the town should stay out of it is absolutely terrible play. Also, if you genuinely believed the BS you just posted, then why didn't you post it earlier? We're on a clock, now is not the time for playing coy.

I'm not going to share more until Zdenek claims; he doesn't need any help with crafting a false claim.

@Mod-

Can we have prods on people who haven't posted or can you check that you sent Day 3 has started PMs (I did not get one)? The one week discussion time isn't going to help much if most people don't even realize the day started.

[Kast]

Btw-
Thor has a good point. The town response to someone with a guilty on you is to call them out and vote them for it; more so if the person with the guilty is one of your scum suspects. Zdenek's "I'm going to try deflecting attention to someone else" smacks of caught scum trying to avoid an inevitable lynch.

[Kast]

@LMP-

Less effort on defending yourself/unnecessary claiming. What are your thoughts on Zdenek?

P-EDIT: Thanks

LYNCHMEPLS – I IMPLORE YOU TO KILL HIM WITH FIRE TONIGHT!!!!

Unlikely to come from distancing scum partners.

Actually, it isn't at all unlikely that MoI-scum would get frustrated with a VI-scum buddy (such as Thor) and ask for his death by vig. It's unlikely a vig will actually listen, but if one does, it's great as bussing cred and it cuts team losses by removing a weak member.

@Cow-
My impression is you think I'm more likely to be telling the truth than not. Is this correct? If so, please vote Zdenek.

@Shadow-
Raivann's scummy and quite possibly scum. But Zdenek is caught scum. Share your thoughts please.

@Dana-
Setael is your top suspect, that's fine. You don't seem interested in convincing others to vote for Setael or otherwise making use of this discussion phase.

Do me a favor. Vote Zdenek now. You can switch back to your no-effort-vote on Setael when we break for the wedding. For now, use your vote in a manner that makes use of discussion time.

@Pop/Andy-
When you're caught up, please share your thoughts on Zdenek.

@Ben-
Are you interested in playing the game today?

[Kast]

@Mod-

Thanks!

@Pop-
Share your thoughts on Zdenek; particularly in light of a claimed guilty/SK against him and his refusal to claim but also refusal to contradict my claim. If you need to finish reading D2 before you do that, please finish. If you can share your thoughts without finishing, that's fine too.

@Magua-
ITT DGB already admitted she frequently fakes being a PR as vanilla. This is part of her typical playstyle. Supporting this, her "mod-confirmed" reads came about in response to posts, rather than new reads developed after night phases. None of this needs to be pointed out to you.

Based on your earlier game play, the quality of your current play seems to have taken a sharp nose dive.

[Kast]

CK didn't outright claim, but you should have gotten it if you are Tywin. In Storm of Swords I'm pretty sure there weren't many people who are still alive that 'used to be' hand.

This. I don't know the flavor at all, but from the wiki it's Tywin and Tyrion as the two plausible Hand claims that CK was making. If you were really Tywin, then obviously CK isn't.

Anyway, I'm Varys, I'm a role-name cop and Zdenek's role-name is "Modified Kill Immune". From prior discussion with mod, this would be consistent with a bulletproof SK (also potentially but less likely a modified kill immune mafioso).

I was hoping Zdenek would claim something that outright contradicted and revealed him. Given the number of NKs and already having two claimed/demonstrated vigs; kill immune seems leaps and bounds more a scum ability than a town one.

N1 I investigated Dana and he has no role-name, meaning he is either a Goon, a VT, or investigation immune.

[Kast]

b.) In hopes that I could havedrawn a night kill after claiming Tywin Lannister.

If the claim is true, then you were night immune all of D2. However, instead of acting in a manner to draw NKs, you buddied all the active/town-leader players. Behavior doesn't really match with the claim.

[Kast]

@Thor-
SK is scum. I clarified in response to Zdenek clarifying he didn't want to claim. Not sure what LMP has to do with any of that; none of his posts were a factor in my decision to specify SK.

[Kast]

Was working on a post on and off through the day but just got a PM from mod that kinda turns it on it's head.
Anyway, I got a confirmation of mod error, Zdenek is correct, his role name is actually Modified

NK

Immune, and I was mistakenly told Modified Kill Immune. It's getting into outguessing the mod territory, but getting a clarification on that inclines me to believe Zdenek...it would be a bit skirting the line of mod helping a faction if Zdenek was scum and mod sent that PM to protect him.

I still think it's odd that Zdenek switched up his reads on D2 to almost entirely buddying with MoI/Magua/Benmage, but I suppose lazy town who doesn't want to put effort into catching up can get by easier by just buddying the "town leaders".
******************

Frankly, I thought everyone knew that Benmage is town. As in, knows it from the mod.

In case anyone *cough*magua*cough* missed it, this is DGB tacitly admitting she's BSing the PR claim.

I believe Zed and kast.

This reads like more buddying.

who's modconfirmed town and who's just DGB-thinks-this-person's-town-because-she's-never-wrong

-Hascow is mod-confirmed day-vig, which is good enough for me to consider mod-confirmed town.
-LL is nigh confirmed by a flipped Lyncher.

@Thor-

you clarifying from scum to SK around LMP's claims suggested to me you actually had tracking info, and I was reacting as such.

My clarification had nothing to do with LMP. However, I did intentionally and openly not claim the exact nature of my information so that Zdenek-SK would have to guess whether I was using watch/track info or some direct investigation result.

I'm not sure I buy a scum/third party that becomes NK immune - most SKs would start with the power and most scum don't seem like they'd get a built in lyncher sort of sub role.

This is crap logic. You wouldn't dismiss the possibility of Zdenek-SK based on Zdenek-SK claiming his role is not SK. Your argument is exactly that; you're assuming (1) his claim is completely true and (2) his claimed ability is unlikely to be an SK ability. It's an incomplete approach to evaluating a claim; yes you should examine whether his claim is consistent (what you did), but just because it is consistent does not mean it is true.

@Pops-

Rolecop pulled "modified bulletproof". He could be lying about how it's modified.

This is a reasonable consideration.

@Dana-
In your Setael case, are you taking into account that Setael actually wanted a lynch as opposed to one of the "no lynch" crowd?

Also, translation: hey, this guy is on my back, wasn't he under attack earlier? i know, let's bring up that attack again - I won't actually make a definitive statement about it, but will sort of smear it on him in the hope he goes away like fungus from foot cream.

This is accurate.

SK doesn't just start with bulletproof?

Modified != Limited. Modified NK Immune could just as easily be a powered up version as a nerfed version.

If Zdenek is the SK, should we even be lynching him today?

Absolutely. SK is way better to remove early game than scum and the earlier the better. Eliminating an SK on D3 in a 25 man game roughly translates to 2 extra days, ie. 2 extra lynch/mislynch chances.

unless you can showcase some sort of scummy/SK play from him

Did you forget who the number two lynch candidate on D2 was?

Yes, pops, of course he COULD be an sk. But it's pretty silly to go SK hunting this early.

We have tempo, and we should spend it hunting scum.

SK is scum. The best time to kill an SK is early in the game. The only time to spare an SK is when town is doing horrible and NEEDS the SK for cross kills. D3 with 3 scum dead isn't horrible.

@pops: Even if Kast is right and Zdenek is SK, why exactly do we want to remove him right now? Starks have much more to fear from Zdenek-SK than town does.

Every time I'm a mafioso, I adore the townies who assume SK means "vig-that-we'll-lynch-later", this is even MORE true when my team is down members. Starks are down 3 players. SK obviously knows this and obviously aims for townies. If this was D5 and we had yet to see a Stark flip, you might have a point.

Third - How could scumZdenek trigger his vest any faster? Killing chesskid N0? I'm saying the day game does not support bulletproof-townZdenek at all, yet the night game supports scumZdenek rather accurately.

Damn. That's a good point I wasn't considering. Certainly explains the otherwise suboptimal CK kill.

Resorting to insults, Shadow? How about constructing a decent defence?

Scum who are caught usually resort to insults. Convince me you're town within your next post or I'll vote you.

WTH?

@Thor-
To be clear, I agree with your sentiments that rational/analytical players tend to be a lot more arrogant than VIs like yourself. The arrogance probably gets annoying. Doesn't make you any less a VI. But keep posting; you're mixing occasional nuggets of value amidst the mountain of BS.

@Nexus/Shadow-
Nexus is wasting time and distracting with non-affiliation related junk. If Nexus really thinks Shadow is going too far with insults/etc. then just say so and ask him to apologize. Using it as an excuse to derail the thread is anti-town.

**********
In light of the mod clarification I added above, I'm not going to pursue a Zdenek lynch today. Of the remaining players, Dana and Raivann are at the top of my list and I'd be happy with either one's lynch. Slight preference to Raivann since he's got more relational info and since Dana's a Goon if he's scum.

VOTE: Raivann

[Kast]

How dare I decide he's not SK because for him to be SK two different players are lying to support his fakeclaim.
Whut?

This is false. My info itself is completely consistent with Zdenek-SK. "Modified Kill Immune" and "Modified NK Immune" are not inconsistent with being an SK and you have never attempted to claim that.

You have claimed that the ability "becomes bulletproof when player X dies" is inconsistent with an SK. If your claim is true (it is not but for sake of argument we'll leave that aside), then EITHER Zdenek is town telling the truth OR Zdenek is scum lying about how his ability is modified. From a town PoV, we don't know which it is (this is what pops is saying).

YOU are taking the VI PoV and assuming that Zdenek's claimed modification is definitely true, which makes him unlikely to be an SK. Assuming that he is telling the truth in order to clear him is completely irrational.

-A VI is a village idiot. It's a player who plays like an idiot. Some examples of VI behavior are aiming for an early game No-Lynch, using crap-logic or no reasoning at all to clear a player who should not be cleared (ie. Scummy Player A told us he's not scum, so he can't be scum), voting your town reads for no reason, getting easily confused by extremely simple and clear situations, etc., etc.

-Assuming you meant Magua's towntell on shadow, I'm not giving much weight to it. It's plausible Shadow is being honest. It's also possible he's reacting to the sample role PM. For me, I had no clue who the Lannisters were, and I asked the mod if Lannister equals town prior to reading the thread/sample role PM. I find it plausible that someone else could see red font and think mafia.

@Magua-

If he's an SK, he's some sort of rolecop investigation immune.

This needs some explaining.

@Magua/Pops-
I'm a role-name cop. I don't know what the actual powers of a player are, just what their role-name is. I am not told the alignment of a player, so if I investigated an SK, I would not be told "Serial Killer". If he had other powers, like "Bulletproof Serial Killer", then I'd be told he is "Bulletproof". Similarly with mafia; if I investigate a Mafia Roleblocker, I would be told "Roleblocker", but not that the player is mafia. Technically, Dana could be a Vanilla Townie, Mafia Goon, (Vanilla?) Serial Killer, or some investigation immune role. Mod didn't clarify what exactly a (Vanilla?) Serial Killer is, but in a Large Theme, that's an unlikely enough possibility to be ignored.

If Zdenek is mafia OR SK, then he would have a kill ability that I don't learn anything about.

-As far as mod-correction not being a clear; technically you're right. In all the games I've ever played, mods never make corrections like that when it doesn't matter. It's somewhat outguessing the mod, but otherwise it's toeing the line of mod involvement.

sk hunting as a rule is generally a post-massclaim activity when we know for sure whether there are spare kills floating around.

This is BS. Lynching a caught SK is not the same as "SK Hunting" and your posts and similar ones before have been equating the two. If an SK is found, he's almost always a better lynch than scum because it eliminates a kill and directly translates into more days/nights for town to find/lynch scum.

I would expect an SK who is rolecopped to either come up as, "Modified Nightkill Immune Nightkiller" *or* "Vanilla" depending upon investigation immunity dynamics. I would not expect them to come up with only *part* of their role.

That's not how it works and I don't buy for one second that you believe it would. Anyone who comes up as "Modified Nightkill Immune Nightkiller" is OBVIOUSLY an SK. Someone coming up as "Modified NK Immune" is still fairly damning but leaves some wiggle room.

@DGB-
So, I went from unknown, but positive -(posts crap you generally like and agree with)> scum by PoE -(claims cop with results)> let's lynch him tomorrow.

@Andy-
Ugh...too long. I skimmed. Seems fairly reaqsonable on first pass.

Anyway, side point that everyone should keep in mind. Benmage is still a Governor. When we go to our tables, we need to agree on a lynch with enough time to pick a second candidate if Ben vetoes the first one.

[Kast]

@Thor-
VI is a pretty standard term. If you act like a VI, you'll be referred to as one. Your whining is equivalent to players in newbie games getting upset when someone calls them scum.

Also, since you now don't want to lynch him and seem to agree that his claim is at least functional for the moment...why are we still arguing this? If you want me to just say "Kast is smart, huzzah!" I can do that if it advances the gamestate again.

This is Thor being a VI. There's a very specific reason I'm doubting Zdenek as scum; it has nothing to do with Zdenek's claim being functional and I'm still thinking about it.

The point behind this argument is because you keep pushing complete crap-logic as if it is a legitimate reason for players to dismiss Zdenek as potential scum. As you noted, I'm not attacking the

reasonable

arguments for Zdenek-not-scum because those are

reasonable

. They're also

not

what you are primarily pushing, and I'm not going to bother checking, but I'm pretty sure they were raised by other people before you added them to bolster your crap-logic argument.

If you think I don't believe what I'm saying, what, exactly, do you think I'm trying to achieve here?

This is just a bad argument aimed at avoiding the point your posted argument is ridiculous/gibberish. The point is that it's completely unbelievable and inconsistent with all the rest of your posts.

To answer your surface question, you're clearly posting some very out of character gibberish/crap-logic to defend Zdenek. To answer your implicit question, There's a vast array of possible explanations, some very obvious ones if you are scum, other still pretty damn obvious ones if you're just stubborn/ornery town, and even more if you're just not thinking clearly (which is possible given you posted something very clearly not thought through).

As I've also said, in a game with

as many kills flying around as this

,

hunting serial killers is best saved for post-massclaim

.

O_o Bold section seems to imply there's a large number of kills. A Large Theme game with only 2 deaths per night, doesn't really support the implication.
Italicized portion is still as wrong/misleading now as it was the first time and second time and third time,...etc. If by hunting serial killers you mean lynching a suspected serial killer (which context makes INDUBITABLE), then absolutely no. Lynch serial killers when they're found as long as it's not endgame with a serial killer needed for cross kills. At this point in the game, saving a serial killer for a later day lynch is a SCUM motivation as the SK helps them thin town and is a "safe" lynch for later. If anyone things Zdenek

IS

an SK, then he should be priority one.

@TS Morse Suggestion-
Nice idea for an emergency message. It's going to be way too annoying/cumbersome/abusing loopholes for me to bother with it as regular communication.

@Mod/Ben-

If the governor power is used, does that get announced publicly?

Also, I already told mod, but I'll be going on another business trip and will have limited access/different posting availability until April 1st. Should be more available than the previous V/LA, but if it's bad I'll seek a replacement.