A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!

[Feysal]

Only one day into the game, and we're on page 10. I don't have the time to read up right now, but I'll tackle this game later tonight. Content of this post is basically limited to "hello, I'm in this game too".

[Feysal]

Okay, I've read about half of the thread, and can't go any further tonight. I'll catch up on the rest tomorrow, but for now I have some of my thoughts from the first five pages for you.

GreyICE looks town so far. That said, I'm not in favor of him being raised as the Hand of the King. His campaign promise of not using the governor power is not what I want, and what he said about yelling but not using his power even if an obvtown player was being lynched does not sit right with me. What I would want from the Hand of the King is to be someone with a good head for town reads, and not afraid to use the power to help the town. I don't see why we should reject this power out of fear of what might happen, especially after the clarification that the power can not be used on yourself.

Of course I think I would be a good candidate to be raised, and, well, who doesn't. I will defend my town reads, and I will not ask permission or apologize for it. I know how difficult it is to convince even a few people, let alone the entire town that they are wrong in trying to lynch someone, and having a governor power for such an occasion could help the town a lot. I'm not one to self-vote though, and I'll be thinking about who else I would want having this power.

I'm surprised to see Bunnylover said he did not want to be raised. I wonder why, and are there any others?

MoI is not impressing me so far. His statistics of who self-raised did not look significant, bringing it up this early was really not worth it, and devoting wall posts to arguing about it did not serve any useful purpose I could recognize. When MoI said the data was not usable in this game in #122, I had to wonder what was the use of arguing about something that pointless. I liked the end of that post though, the part about the Hand of God being under extra scrutiny. Even less reason to fear it falling into scum hands. I also completely agree with giving no regard for village idiocy when lynching people who appear scummy. I recently had a frustrating incident with scum Furcolow who no one believed to be scum due to his village idiocy, until the moment he killed everyone but me and I was endgamed.

Oh, and I see we have a post restricted player. I've never had a restriction myself, but I've been in several games with them. I'm going to have fun deciphering his posts.

More tomorrow after I read the rest, for now, goodnight.

[Feysal]

Feysel, if an obvtown player is being lynched... no, seriously.

If a player is obvtown, they're probably not being lynched. If a majority of the players think they're the lynch, why the hell would they be obvtown?

I have no idea. You tell me, those words came from your post:

Even if you guys are going to retard lynch an obvtown, I might yell at you - but I won't use the powers.

[Feysal]

Finished reading up to page 11. Thoughts from those six pages:

GreyICE still reads town to me, but a rather foolish one. For whatever reason he has taken offense with MoI posting walls, and he is not afraid to show it. What I don't get is why he would antagonize another player like that, over something so trivial. The only good thing I got out of this fight was that it looks like genuine frustration to me, and not like scum distancing. I don't agree at all with his case on DGB, her factual incorrectness about hasdgfas faking a post restriction is a mere technicality when he was actually following a real but voluntary restriction.

Then we've got Benmage full of confidence, repeatedly asking to be raised as Hand, saying he will use the power in the most badass way he can. I don't like that much. I can't say if it is scummy or not, but his confidence reads to me as arrogance. In my admittedly limited experience with Benmage, he is by no means immune to screwing up like the village idiots he wants to policy lynch, though perhaps less likely. I also got a bad feeling from his claim that false bravado would not be typical for scum. While generally true, Benmage strikes me as the type of player who would be the exception to the rule.

I find it funny how Song of Ice and Fire and Chesskid said they had a similar reaction to their roles as Shadow. That may have been a trend, I was somewhat confused too whether I was supposed to be town or scum, but at least I did not ask the mod about it. I believe Shadow is town by the way, and not a village idiot by any means. His attitude and style have looked genuine and townish to me, and that is the basis of the read, though I don't remember seeing much in the way of scumhunting.

For someone with a single post, Xtoxm surprised me with a good suggestion. Should we want to get rid of the governor power, the best way is indeed to give it to today's lynch. Not that I would want to do this, I prefer giving the power to someone who might use it, and who I trust to be town.

Raise: hasdgfas

For now, I choose to believe his claim and that he is town. I've also liked what little I've seen him able to communicate.

I have little love for diddin after his attack on Magua for his "contradiction", and the jury is still out for much of the playerlist.

More to come, but for tonight I've read enough.

[Feysal]

Yet another catch-up post from me. Somehow, every time I reach my last post, the thread has grown by another page or two, or three.

I do not like Raivann in #279. The way he described Song of Ice and Fire's post as scummy was just nitpicking at inconsequential things. The only good point he had was about Song liking Benmage, but not knowing what a VI was.

MoI seems to be implying that GreyICE is a village idiot, and there would be nothing wrong with him being vigged. Kinda harsh, but I have to admit that GreyICE is not impressing me with his play. His initial strong stance on what to do with the governor power made me think he was town, but his posts are getting worse. Like that vote on Mikujin for being apologetic. He was prodded, that is why he posted and apologized. This is another bad case from GreyICE.

DGB is seriously confusing me this game. She is making her lists like I've come to expect, but I'm getting a feeling that she is more eager than usual to argue, and some of her comments have felt unusually sarcastic. I don't know what this is yet, but I'm not getting a town feel from her.

I continue to have a scummy feel about diddin. However I will not put a vote there yet, sorry Chesskid. I will finish reading the thread first, then vote, and I will have to ISO read him too.

Shadow, in response to your #329, I was not criticizing you when I said you had not done much scumhunting. I'm acutely aware that I haven't yet done much of that either. I was simply explaining what I had a town read on you for.

[Feysal]

Who sayz? Mods don't modkill for a post restriction fail.

Then why do you want him to violate the restriction? If there is no public reprimand from the mod, a modkill or something else, we will learn nothing even if he did break his restriction.

[Feysal]

I see a distant light on the horizon... can it be? Yes! The end of the thread!

In other words, I'm finally completely caught up, having escaped catchup hell, and can start playing this game the way it is meant to be played.

Some observations from along the way:

I see Mikujin has fallen under suspicion for first not providing reads or doing public scumhunting, then jumping to DGB supposedly to avoid pressure for having no vote. I see the scum motivation of laying low like this, but I'd really like us to have a better case today. I have been guilty of acting the same, as town. If he is still like this after a day or two, that will be different, but for now I'm content leaving him alone.

I had a look back at what DGB did at the start of the thread. She posted her first list of reads fairly early, though it was after Locke had called her out for not doing it. She then gave Locke a scum read. She left out LynchMePls from her first scum list, MoI noticed she was still voting him, and she added him to her scum list in her next post. Oddly, she mentioned that hasdgfas could be faking in both of her first lists, but it was not until Magua bet that he was faking that DGB moved hasdgfas to her scum list and began to push him.

And get this: throughout the game, despite pushing for hasdgfas, DGB always kept her original random-stage vote on LynchMePls, who she never tried to push. Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town.

Like so many others, I'm getting a scummy feel from zoraster. And from diddin. Raivann looks worse to me than either of them though. He posted some scum reads early on, but instead of keeping his vote on one of them, he voted Song of Ice and Fire, who had only posted once, less than a day earlier. There was no rhyme or reason to that vote, and what is worse, Raivann has since then tried to justify that vote and kept it there. Also, the way he replied twice to the same post, one hour part, looks simply weird. He first dares me to vote Song, then appears to mock the way I reported what I was up to.

So you don't like it, but I also made a good point? Huh? You didn't like it so much that you posted this, but I made a good point?

You had

one

good point. The rest of them made me feel like you were grasping at straws to make it appear like you had a case. That is what I disliked about it. I won't be supporting a Song (now Thor) lynch based on this. Also, what was the purpose of your second reply to the same post, one hour later?

If you really think he's faking push a wagon on him. Town has ZERO reason to fake that sort of PR.

Sadly, I've seen town fake a post restriction and get lynched over it. I trust hasdgfas would be experienced enough to know that though.

On the other hand, I've seen a third party fake three different post restrictions during a single game, and get away with it. It was a strange role, and a strange game.

Anyway, I'm no stranger to post restrictions, though I've never had one myself. In the games where I've seen them, the post restricted players have

always

attracted attention, and there has always been a portion of players who want to lynch them, for no other reason than that they are post restricted. I'm seeing the same here. I see people saying that they think that the restriction is fake, but less in the way of reasons. Bunnylover in particular seems to be tunneling on hasdgfas, despite having no reason to believe the restriction is fake other than outguessing the mod. DGB had some meta of hasdgfas being scum and post restricted before. That makes it more likely he could be faking, but it is no proof. xvart had meta on one of the moderators, saying Faraday would not give such an obscure restriction. That sounds somewhat better to me, but there is still nothing scummy anyone can pin on hasdgfas. Or is there? I have to admit that it is

possible

he is scum, but does anyone have a reason why it would be

probable

? If there is, I'm missing it.

I think the best thing to do is wait and see, and not get distracted. hasdgfas sticks out, he is not getting away with anything scummy now.

Someone forgot who their town reads were supposed to be by the end of their own wallpost.

I caught up at a good time for this. This is the first truly good catch I remember seeing from you. We'll see how xvart explains it.

It looks like I have two fine suspects in DGB and Raivann. Due to DGB being DGB, I'm less certain about her being scum though, I have known her reads to change arbitrarily as town. Raivann looks scummiest to me right now. He made a strange vote on Song, and since then has been scrambling for reasons to call it a vote on scum.

Vote: Raivann

I'm alone in raising hasdgfas as Hand... not useful. I see Benmage leading the votes, followed by Twilight Sparkle and Magua. Benmage may be town, but I haven't liked the confidence with which he has been asking for votes. Twilight Sparkle have said they won't use the ability. That leaves Magua, and I'm fine with him. The only posts from him I've not liked were from the exchange with zoraster about his worst case scenario. Those were tedious and not that useful, since that situation is very unlikely to occur anyway.

Unraise: hasdgfas
Raise: Magua

[Feysal]

@Feysal: What do you make of Zoraster?

Good question... I was about to answer this last night, but decided to sleep on it and do an ISO read first. All I had was a vaguely scummy gut read, and after doing that ISO read I can't be sure where that came from. The only thing worth mentioning is that for someone who suspects Shadow for not scumhunting, zoraster has few posts about scumhunting and more about other discussions. Also, it is a bit odd that he remains suspicious of both players he voted at the start of the game, as if he was tunneling. I find myself agreeing with most of his reads and arguments, except Shadow and Locke (FFVI, anyone?), and I no longer feel that scummy read was as justified as I thought. My read now is null, leaning scummy.

I'm not reluctant to vote, I just happen to like my vote on Thor (Song).

Why would you like that vote?

GreyICE, can you please show where xvart claims to have a townread on you? diddin's 252 is in reply to me and *my* townread on you.

Seems I should've waited before commending GreyICE for making a good point... Checking xvart in ISO, he never did claim to have a town read on GreyICE.

Quick question – why so quick to assume Locke is town? Couldn't he possibly be scum of a faction different from DGB / Zoraster? Do you have reason to think we only have a single scum faction in a game this size?

I simply don't see where the scum reads on him are coming from. I'm leaning town on Locke, though it is not a strong read, his ISO is too short for that. If he belongs to any scum faction at all, I've not seen indication of that yet. I have no reason to believe there would be only one scum team either, in fact I find two more likely.

Let's have some more Zoraster votes everyone!

Whatever for? You seem to believe zoraster and Raivann are scum partners. Maybe they are, but Raivann looks far more suspicious than zoraster at the moment. Why would we want to vote the one who looked less likely to be scum?

[Feysal]

Hey Cow, you saying that you're a dayvig?

I think he is. I just looked up who and what this Ser Ilyn Payne character is. He is the King's Justice, aka headsman, aka executioner. Him being a dayvig would fit the character perfectly.

I think he is asking us if we would want Raivann, zoraster or MoI executed. My vote would be on Raivann. I believe he is scum, I care not if he is lynched or dayvigged. zoraster I'm less certain about, and MoI I have a null read on.

If we're ever going to make sense of hasdgfas, we should at least try to make sense of what he is saying. I just read through his ISO, and I think I get the gist of most of his posts. I'm not getting the idea of post #467 though. What was the point of pointing at Shadow's and Twilight Sparkle's hands? Was it just that they should ask questions if they don't understand something?

I dont like the Raivann wagon. He's Lannister i'm 100% sure.

Excuse us if we don't take your word for it. Can you explain what is your fascination with Thor/Song?

[Feysal]

I was replying to posts, when I saw in preview that Xtoxm was dead. My views on how to handle the dayvig are too late, but since I already typed them, I'm posting them anyway.

So you want me dayvigged before I could even claim? Feysal is so scum.

I can voice my support for you to be dayvigged or lynched, and since neither is about to happen immediately, you are going to get your chance to claim. Meanwhile, could you explain why you want to have Thor (Song) lynched so badly? If you are town, you are not helping anyone by withholding your reasons, least of all yourself.

This is a recipe for disaster. Unfortunately [REDACTED] is not going to end before today ends to demonstrate why. Using a claimed Dayvig as a second lynch is going to result in a rushed Vig and a rushed deadline vote. When that happened Day 1 in Clash a Town Bulletproof got lynched at deadline over Scum.

If Cow is going to shoot today he should vig who he suspects and deal with the fall-out. Thor as Dayvig in Clash got it right.

I don't like Cow's offering it up unbidden and I don't like his attempt to skirt responsibility by making it a voted move.

I get your point, but I disagree. We have enough time to make two decisions who to lynch or execute, if we don't squander it. I have been in a game where the town first lynched one outlaw, and during twilight some players teamed up to shoot another, essentially with a shared dayvig. Two outlaws down, and we managed this with a 48 hour day phase. I'm sure LMP remembers this, he was the moderator.

Even if we don't literally vote on who to dayvig, there is merit in discussing and presenting arguments for who the target should be. It is no different from normal scumhunting really, and every stance we get before the execution happens is more information for later. I don't see a downside.

*hesitates*


*points at own eyes*
*points at everyone*

I interpret this so that you did not want us to vote on who to dayvig, you wanted to hear our cases and arguments, since several pairs of eyes see more than just yours. Was that right? Not that it matters any more if Xtoxm was your kill.

[Feysal]

Again, I see no upside. You aren't getting any more information out of discussing who to Dayvig than you already are in discussion who to lynch. People are free to discuss multiple scummy players regardless of whether we have a publicly disclosed Dayvig or not.

Actually, I think that we learned somewhat less from this dayvig than we would have from the discussion preceding a lynch. The difference is in the wagons. People react differently to them, they give reasons to either support them or avoid them, and you can look for connections based on that. Here only few people had commented on Xtoxm prior to his flip, and we missed the chance to see if anyone would jump at the suggestion of having him vigged. Not that I'm complaining, a dead scum is a dead scum.

I searched the thread for references to Xtoxm, and only Shadow had a clear scum stance on him, apart from hasdgfas himself. I already had a town read on Shadow, and now we have additional evidence that he is not Stark-aligned. MoI comes second for questioning Xtoxm for his vote, which shows suspicion. I also mentioned Xtoxm once in a positive connection, for having the best suggestion for how to be rid of the governor power, though I did not agree with that. That's it. No one else has had any significant interaction with Xtoxm, and we can only look at Xtoxm's own posts for any hints.

[Feysal]

Okay, it is about time I did this.

Raivann, would you mind explaining what you have been doing in this game, and why?

#36 - This was the first and only time Song of Ice and Fire posted until #206.
#196 - Less than a day into the game, you have a number of town and scum reads. You only gave some reason for your read of MoI, the rest are completely unexplained.
#205 - Instead of one of your scum reads posted less than two hours earlier, you vote Song of Ice and Fire. She has only posted once, and it is much too early to purge lurkers sixteen hours and a half since the game started. Everyone had not even posted yet at this point. In short, there is no apparent reason for this vote, and you don't give any either.
#206 - Song of Ice and Fire posts a second time, commenting on various things.
#209 - You respond to Song #206, asking if she agreed on lynching village idiots, since she had liked Benmage's posts.
#246 - You ask MoI for his view about Song.
#247 - MoI responds that Song looks agreeable almost to fault, and his gut says newbie scum.
#279 - Almost a full day after the post was made, you respond to Song #206

again

. This time you say it is scummy. You say that you like your vote better after this post, but that was not what you said the first time you replied to it. This time you make up a couple scum tells, steal the too agreeable argument from MoI, accuse Song and MoI of being scum together, and accuse Song of buddying to Benmage, since she did not know what VI meant and Benmage had talked about policy lynching them.

This case could not look more fake. If you genuinely thought the post was scummy, why did you not say so the first time you replied to it? How can you use an argument MoI made against Song and accuse them of being scum together in the same post? This does not begin to make sense. Not to mention, you had voted Song before #206, and this feels like you're trying to justify your vote and failing miserably. You make a case first and then vote,

not the other way around

.

Later you respond to my post #387 twice, and somehow you seem to consider it scummy the second time but not the first. You also leap at Magua's comment about Song replacing out for further justification for your vote. You give a bunch of reads, unchanged from the start of the day, and no explanation for any of them. You call Mina for help, trying to get support for your claim that you would not post this much as scum, only to be rebuked with her response that you were digging yourself into a hole. Which you appear to be doing in this game as well.

I'm not reluctant to vote, I just happen to like my vote on Thor (Song).

Why would you like that vote?

I dont like the Raivann wagon. He's Lannister i'm 100% sure.

Excuse us if we don't take your word for it. Can you explain what is your fascination with Thor/Song?

So you want me dayvigged before I could even claim? Feysal is so scum.

I can voice my support for you to be dayvigged or lynched, and since neither is about to happen immediately, you are going to get your chance to claim. Meanwhile, could you explain why you want to have Thor (Song) lynched so badly? If you are town, you are not helping anyone by withholding your reasons, least of all yourself.

I have repeatedly asked you to explain your vote on Song. You have never answered. One more time:

WHY DID YOU VOTE SONG OF ICE AND FIRE, BEFORE YOU HAD ANY CASE ON HER, DESPITE HAVING ACTUAL SCUM READS?

And while we're at it, I'd like you to explain all of your reads, and answer the two questions I asked before about your case on Song.

Meanwhile, my vote stands.

[Feysal]

Another day. I have little to say about how yesterday ended. I never really got why so many people found Zoraster scummier than Raivann, but after his claim it was obvious he was lying, and had to die.

Today, I don't get why so many people are suspecting Bunnylover. I don't claim to have a good read on her, but I don't think the points made against her are convincing.

The Zoraster case I'm not really seeing.
I understand why MoI is voting for him, but that's not why others are voting for him.

Again, these two lines do not compute.

Bunny please explain your thinking here. If you don't see a Zoraster case how can it make sense that I am voting for him? That's contradictory.

Either you see the case I have laid out and think it make sense for me to be voting him (thus you see the case) or you don't see any valid case on him and thus my voting for him doesn't make sense.

I get what you're talking about, but I don't think this is much of a contradiction. After all, Bunnylover can understand why people voted Zoraster without having to agree with them, thus not seeing what the case was about. This is also how I felt about Zoraster yesterday. I had read him in ISO, and thought that he was somewhat scummy, but not nearly enough to explain why so many had him as their primary suspect.

The Zoraster FOS buddy - Vote Townie is nice. Frankly I would rather lynch Raivann (the FOS buddy) which upon flip of a scum result will prove (or at least strengthen) the fact that Zoraster was in fact doing that.
Lynching Zoraster really doesn't dissolve Raivann status.

Um what? Implicit in your agreement that Zoraster is possibly pulling the "Vote: Town, FOS: Partner" play is the fact that you MUST think Zoraster is scum. If you think Raivann is scum and are unsure of Zoraster it doesn't make sense to make the link in the reverse direction. It is not a bi-directional tell.

Now I don't follow you, since Bunnylover's statement makes perfect sense to me. We had two suspects, Raivann and Zoraster, and a possible tell that made Zoraster appear scummier if Raivann was also scum. Thus it makes perfect sense to lynch the one who is individually scummier, and given who Bunnylover was voting and what she said about the Zoraster case, it is clear that she found Raivann scummier. Had Raivann been lynched and flipped scum, the tell would have been strengthened, and if Raivann did not flip scum, the tell would have been disproven. Just because Bunnylover thought that the "vote townie, FOS partner" play was

possible

, that does not mean she would

have to

think that Zoraster would be scum. It is obvious she was not at all sure about that.

What happened next? Bunnylover answered in post #847, and diddin noted a possible scumslip from her in #887. MoI also catches the same thing in #907. It is bad enough that MoI goes on about this bidirectional tell thing that Bunnylover never said, but the fact that this whole slip was pointed out by

confirmed scum diddin

really makes me question its validity. I no longer think there are two scum factions, and thus sheeping the case of a confirmed scum seems like an exceptionally bad idea. If you want to sell me this idea of Bunnylover being scum, you'll have to try harder.

Bunny's insistence on lynching Raivann today is scummy.

Unvote, Vote: Zoraster

. His claim is obv. scum. Bunny's slip has also been noted by myself and others and Bunny still wants Raivann lynch. That makes me lose quite a lot of faith in the Raivann case.

This was diddin's last post. Barely anything about Zoraster, and more trying to paint Bunnylover black. This reads to me like scum trying to save his partner or delay his lynch by diverting suspicion to a townie. Yes, I continue to think Raivann is likely scum. I've seen arguments that Raivann would be unlikely to be a Stark because Xtoxm voted xvart right after him, and because diddin was voting him. I think the first argument is inconclusive and the second is possible bussing. I don't think either argument is good enough while Raivann has still not explained his weird behavior.

Oh, and I should probably explain why I think we only have one scum faction. Given the size of the game, I think scum factions would most likely have three members if there were two factions, four at most. We've had two Starks flip, both of them power roles. To balance that, the theoretical other scum faction should also have power roles. If factions had three members each, that would mean that the majority of the scum had powers, and if there were godfathers, there would be no room for goons at all. That is one thing. In addition, Brynden Tully seems to be a relatively obscure character, and if you had to pick three or four characters on the Stark side, I don't think he would make the cut. My conclusion is that there is only one main mafia faction, the Starks.

Therefore,

Vote: Raivann

I still want to hear answers to the questions I asked yesterday.

[Feysal]

Chesskid had soft claimed Tywin Lannister, by saying his character had been the Hand before. The scum may have believed him and thought that Tywin would be a power role. If Chesskid did that on purpose, it was actually well done... he managed to draw a night kill, saving someone else and avoiding his own potential policy lynch.

Back to the initial vote on Song, I really don't think it was reasonable when the game had only just started. I had not posted yet at all at that time. Also, Song posted right after, and had apparently been writing a post when seen, so the vote became pointless immediately. Why anyone would try to construct a case after voting rather than the other way around baffles me, and the fact that the post only looked scummy

the second time you replied to it

makes me doubt how genuine that scummy read ever was. Sheeping a point against Song from one of your scum reads did not make much sense either.

[Feysal]

Incoming catchup wall.

Lets not get crazy on the flavor. Brynden Tully is a badass if you ask me... But uhh yeah. I'm thinking one scum team.

I wouldn't know, I've never read the books. Based on what I've read from wiki pages, I thought that Brynden Tully would be

relatively

obscure however, meaning there are more prominent members of the Stark family I'd expect to see in a small scumteam.

Bullet the Raivann case.

I wrote about Raivann in detail in my post #811. In short, my problem with Raivann was never about his vote on xvart, or his behavior during the end of last day. It was about the fakeness of the cases he was pushing. I first noticed him replying twice to a post of mine in quick succession, and he seemed to inexplicably find it scummy the second time, but not the first. Later when I ISO read him, I noticed he had done the same to Song. He voted first, pretty much at random, and then began to construct a case around his vote. His case in post #279 was ridiculous. He arbitrarily decided certain phrases to be scummy and sheeped a point against Song from one of his scum reads. He had one fair point about Song liking Benmage despite not understanding what he was talking about, and somehow that resulted in "a quest to lynch Song". This does not look like scumhunting to me. It looks like twisting the words of others to make them appear scummy and have them mislynched.

@Feysal, Ghostlin, Bunnylover:

Do you think diddin was bussing Raivann through most of D1?

I think it is possible. There was significant suspicion on diddin, and he had a power role that would've been very important for the scum team. I could see him bussing a partner who was becoming a liability to boost his own town credit and save his power role.

This stinks of inside information.

Really, why? When MoI asked me on the first day, I said I thought two scum teams were likely. After gaining new information from flips, I no longer think that.

1) Why was this a soft-claim to Tywin? Tyrion had been the hand as well, so it was more just a soft claim to his role. I thought he might be setting up a fakeclaim, since I was of the opion that he was scum.

I was not aware Tyrion had ever been Hand of the King. I remembered that someone had interpreted it as Tywin (Benmage in post #139), I checked whether Tywin had indeed been the Hand from a wiki, and believed that was who Chesskid had meant. He certainly never corrected Benmage on that. I think the scum may have believed it too.

2) Are you suggesting that Chesskid was the Stark kill?

Of course. Who else? Unless you're suggesting we had a lucky doctor or role blocker, the Starks must have killed Chesskid. My theory is that they thought he was Tywin, and killed him thinking he would be a power role.

Changing my vote due to the Hand's wishes.

So you are voting me only because Benmage called me scummy, and he has never even explained why?

This is an unacceptable lynch for TODAY. Look elsewhere. We can reconsider it tomorrow. But for today he gets a pass. I've already said this. So either lynch me, or look into the many people I've listed for today. Otherwise this waste of fucking time is anti-town.

Ok, I'll bite. I've seen you tell several people who are acceptable people to lynch and who are not. Well guess what? You were elected as the Hand of the King, not as the King himself. You're trusted to be town, but you're not confirmed town, and even if you were, you're not a better scumhunter than the rest of the town combined. You don't get to dictate who we're allowed to suspect and vote, or where we're allowed to hunt for scum. And you sure as hell don't get to call disagreeing with you anti-town, when you haven't even bothered to explain your reads.

If you think that the town is going to follow you blindly, think again.

Don't be a fucking obstinate prick.

Same to you. Do you even realize that by telling people what to do you're diminishing the information we could gain from their actions? If everyone nominated Setael because you told them to, analyzing that wagon would be worthless.

Scum vibes from Feysal's post 387. He defends fire and ice then says "I continue to have a scummy feel about diddin. However I will not put a vote there yet, sorry Chesskid. I will finish reading the thread first, then vote, and I will have to ISO read him too." He then admits he hasn't done any scum hunting and then buddies up to shadow and apologizes in a way that makes me feel icky inside.

So? Are you saying that I should have voted diddin just because Chesskid asked me to, before I'd read enough to make an informed decision? Also, I was not buddying. I'd mentioned before that I had a town read on Shadow, though he had done little scumhunting. That made him jump, so I thought I should clarify that I was not criticizing him for it.

Feysal's post 538 looks sketchy after diddin's flip with the "And from diddin" stuck in there.

I can definitely see a scum buddy wanting to cover his bases by giving that little honorable mention (while staying off the wagon) where it looked at the time like diddin could have ended up as the D1 lynch.

In fact, an ISO of Feysal shows the only things he said about diddin at all were these 2 plus the first thing he said which was, "I have little love for diddin after his attack on Magua for his "contradiction". That's it. About the perfect amount for a scum buddy wanting to look clean if diddin's lynch goes through, but not wanting to push the wagon at all.

I had a scummy feeling from diddin, but I had actual cases on DGB and Raivann. I voted the one who seemed scummiest at the time, and who I still find scummy now. I invite you to find fault with that if you can.

@Feysal: What made you so sure before that there were 2 scum factions?

Nothing. It was a theory based on the game size, and the fact that there were two scum factions in Clash of Kings. I dropped that theory as soon as there was information that suggested a single scum faction.

I would very much like Feysal to give opinions on people *other* than Raivann.

I have a number of town reads, nothing really surprising about them. DGB was my other suspect on day one, and seeing how sporadic her posting has become, I have to wonder about her. She has been on a massive posting spree in another game I'm playing, which makes her absence here doubly strange. DTMaster is a third, I've seen him catch up real quick when replacing in, and he really is taking his time here. I don't have other major suspicions at the moment.

For those who are not voting Twilight Sparkle,

I'd like to know if it's because a) you think they're town, or b) you think they're null-to-scum, but you have a larger scumread on someone else.

Mostly it's been the second reason, but I feel better about them after reading Mina's recent posts. Hearing about the internal dialogue within the hydra sounded townish, and I'd like to hear more from them when they're back to full strength.

B. Feysal is playing like Feysal scum to me. His focus on Raivann in particular, but his play yesterday in regards to diddin as well.

Your only experience with me as scum is from a single game, The Return to Liten, where I was lynched for failing to bus a partner and after being caught red-handed by a tracker. I suppose you'd expect me to be a major force for the town, and when I'm not you see me as scum. In fact, due to real-life distractions, I've fallen behind sitewide and got prods in all my games. You should know that, you're in one of them. I've still got 15 pages to catch up on in another game.

Also, what about my Raivann case don't you agree with? As for diddin, I find that worthless. Seriously, you can't call someone scummy for having a correct scumread just because they were voting someone else they had a better case on. And considering that you were also voting Raivann, in fact you started that wagon, I don't know what you're suspecting me for.

He's playing like Feysal-scum from Return to Liten. I have off-site experience with Feysal, but to my recollection he was town in all the games I played with him off site. His play here is too... disengaged (for lack of a better word). Feysal is a ferocious player when he's town. I've seen him write short novel length posts analyzing MULTIPLE players to find the needles in the haystack. His play here reads like he already has the answers, so he isn't searching.

What I've got here is a case of too many and too large haystacks. The town games you refer to never had a thousand posts even by the time they ended, let alone by day two. Also, I had more time to spend, and I was playing only one game at a time. I don't have the time or the patience to comment on everything and everyone in a game this large.

I think MOI was on to something here and Feysal backtracked it. It looks to me like Feysal has inside knowledge of the setup of the game. When confronted here he had no choice but to change it to "I simply don't see where the scum reads come from". But what he had said earlier implied that DGB/zoraster interactions somehow made Locke town.

Apparently you think that having a town read implies inside knowledge of there being only one scum team. Really, I simply had a town read on Locke, based on some comments of his I liked. I never said anything about DGB's or zoraster's interactions making Locke town. I said that between zoraster and Locke, I was more confident of Locke being town, in other words, I found Locke more townish than zoraster, who I found scummy.

That said I think Feysal is a very appealing NK target for a Vig or any SK wanting Town cred.

Being night killed would enable me to focus more on my remaining games, but dying without having claimed would make me unhappy.

There, finally caught up again. Some thoughts not already in this wall:

I see that after Benmage declared he would governor Raivann if necessary, some players who suspected Raivann jumped to Thor. Hello? Raivann was completely tunneled on Thor's predecessor for most of day one. Do you think that was bussing? I don't. If Raivann flips scum, I say Thor is probably town, and vice versa. Jumping from voting one to voting the other makes no sense to me.

I'm somewhat annoyed by what Benmage is doing. He has barely explained any of his reads, and instead of making cases on people, he keeps asking others to present them. Case in point, I have no idea why I am on his scum list.

[Feysal]

But your D1 post indicate you believe that there's only one scumteam, not two, since you call Locke town based on his DGB/Zoraster interaction. If you thought there was more than one team, DGB pushing on Locke would not mean he was town, even if she was scum.

I guess I need to be clearer on this: I have never said that I would find Locke town based on any interaction with DGB or Zoraster. I had a town read on him independent of either of them, though not very strong, based on some of his posts that I liked. Part of why I found DGB and zoraster scummy then was because they were pushing Locke for no apparent reason, but that was not what gave me the town read on Locke.

The only time I ever mentioned Locke, DGB and zoraster in the same sentence was in my post #538. "Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town." Nothing there about what I found Locke townish for.

Trying to undermine someone who most people are perceiving as almost confirmed town is scummy.

The last person I saw making this argument was town, and also wrong. He went on to mislynch the player accused of undermining an obvtown player, and the obvtown player was indeed scum. In other words, no one is above suspicion, at least not reasonable suspicion.

---

My vote is clearly achieving nothing, so it is time I changed it. Problem is, I'm inclined to believe both of our main wagons are on town. My read of Twilight Sparkle is improving lately, and I consider Thor probable town due to Raivann's focus on him. Besides, both are being suspected for issues not directly related to their play, Twilight Sparkle for not living up to expectations from a hydra with three strong players, two of them on V/LA, and Thor for posting without being entirely caught up after replacing in. Yes, I saw the inconsistency regarding Zdenek from Twilight Sparkle, but we can do better than that.

Vote: DrippingGoofball
Nominate: Raivann

Since DGB is on Benmage's list of acceptable lynches, this might even have a chance of succeeding. My case on DGB follows.

Early on, Locke voted DGB for not giving her usual declarations of who was town or scum, and for not following up on her LMP vote. In response DGB declared him scum, with no further arguments, and never backed down from that read until it was pointed out how irrational it was after the zoraster lynch. She also continued not to follow up on her LMP vote, but did not vote anyone else either. Her suspicion of Locke looks like pure OMGUS without actually committing to a vote. Next, MoI noted that DGB was still voting LMP, although she did not list him as scum in her initial lists. In response DGB added him to the list, but still did not push him. The way DGB has clung to these two reads looks like scum striving for consistency, especially the way DGB added LMP to her suspect list.

DGB said in her early lists that hasdgfas could be faking his restriction, but did nothing to push him until Magua had voiced the same opinion. Then she started her push, but still did not commit to a vote. She only switched to Locke near the end of the day when it was meaningless, and then to zoraster.

DGB has done barely any scumhunting on the first day, and none on this second. She's had three posts over the last three days. Over those same days, in another game, she has posted three

pages

of aggressive scumhunting. The contrast to here could not be more obvious. She has taken to lurking.

On top of all this, there is the weirdness of how her read on Locke has developed.

Gonna help the scum bus.

VOTE: Locke Lamora

DGB - you didn't unvote, also, I know you've been talking about a zoraster lynch and have been sidetracked by grey, but why the sudden change off LL?

I don't need to unvote.

The LL wagon is not going anywhere. Had the atmosphere in the game been more normal earlier on, I probably would have voted someone else at some point. I haven't paid LL attention at all for a while anyway.

Considering that Locke was apparently one of her main scum reads, it is mighty strange not to pay attention to him. And of course, after this DGB still calls Locke scum at the start of day two, ignoring everything about what the zoraster lynch taught us.

As a bonus, DGB was the only person to defend Raivann when the wagon on him was going strong.

Raivann is exhibiting typical townie thought processes.

Of course, when LMP asked her to show where, she could not find it any more.

[Feysal]

And get this: throughout the game, despite pushing for hasdgfas, DGB always kept her original random-stage vote on LynchMePls, who she never tried to push. Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town.

The more I read this, the less I understand why you have mentioned zoraster here. What has zoraster got to do with anything? The implication of this is that DGB is scummy because she's voting for someone who you believed was more likely to be town than someone else - have I got that right?

DGB was scummy for not voting who she was pushing. She had suspected you all day, but she only voted you after Kast and zoraster had started a wagon on you. In addition, I could not see her having any reason to suspect you. And no, zoraster has nothing to do with that... he had just stuck in my mind with you since I'd read both of your posts in context, which is where I got my initial reads on you from.

[Feysal]

The fact that you say "who else" and then go on to list multiple other explanations for a Stark kill is hilarious. One of the (but certainly not the only) reasons I find your "theory" incredibly unlikely is because I can't fathom an anti-town faction EVER killing chesskid on N1. I find a doc protect on one of the "confirmed" players or a RB on the Stark killer much more likely.

In other words, I disagreed with you, and somehow disagreeing with you makes me scummy. Get over it. In my experience, doctors or role blockers are very rarely that lucky on the first night, and if Chesskid was not the Stark kill, there would be two unexplained deaths last night instead of one. The simplest explanation is most often true, and here the simplest explanation was that Chesskid was killed by the Starks.

If you knew all along you had killed Chesskid, what was the purpose of asking me about it? And by the way, you're being real funny accusing me of having inside information, when it was in fact you who had it.

Nice try, but no. My vote was on a player the Hand had said was off limits (ie a player they would use the governor power on). Therefore I moved my vote. But now that I've dug into your play some more its STARTLINGLY clear that this vote is infinitely better. Why are you trying to twist the events to make me look bad?

I'm not. At the time you voted me, you had not yet dug into my play, you just accused me of having inside information. The way you moved your vote to me looked like you were just using Benmage as an excuse.

LOL! People, please look at Feysal squirm here. He actually wants town cred for his play in regards to diddin yesterday. That play SCREAMED distancing scum. Go back and look at it, seriously. As for your Raivann case, it has been pointed out MULTIPLE times that the interactions of diddin and Raivann do not look scummy, and if you SERIOUSLY believe your 1 scum team theory, shouldn't that make Raivann less likely scum? Why do you keep ignoring this?

LOL! People, please look at LynchMePls resort to rhetoric here. He actually is dodging my question about him also voting Raivann. That play was only different from mine in that I noticed diddin also and he did not. Go back and look at it, seriously. As for the Raivann case, it has been pointed out several times that the interactions of diddin and Raivann do look scummy and there may have been bussing involved, and Raivann continues to look scummy for not having been able to explain his play. I have not ignored the counterarguments, I simply do not believe them.

Two can play that game.

ONCE AGAIN YOU ARE TRYING TO DISTORT THE FACTS. Here are the posts one more time, in the order of their occurance:

Now, where in that first post do you EVER state that your view on LL is NOT from the interactions with DGB and zoraster? Also, it DOESN'T MATTER if you claim you had a town read on him and it was then BOLSTERED by DGB/Zoraster interactions. The fact is that you IMPLY that interactions with DGB/Zoraster (who you are calling scummy) make LL more likely town. But that can only be true if you believe there is only 1 scum team, OTHERWISE IT WOULD MEAN ONLY THAT HE ISN'T PARTNERS WITH DGB/ZORASTER.

I am not trying to distort the facts, but you apparently are. Whether that is out of malice or incompetence remains to be seen.

What you're saying there is completely unintelligible. That first post of mine did not say that my view of Locke would not be based on interactions with DGB or zoraster. It also did not say I would not like to eat peanuts. The way this works is that you need to prove that I said something and explain why it is scummy. I do not need to disprove something I never said in the first place.

I have never said or implied that my town read on Locke would have anything to do with either DGB or zoraster.

Straight from the horses FUCKING mouth! First, "I have never said that I would find Locke town based on any interaction with DGB or Zoraster" is a lie. We've all seen the quote, so I don't think I need to explain why its a lie. He still refuses to acknowledge that being "more confident of Locke being town" REQUIRES the belief of 1 scum team, yet on D1 he was specifically saying that he thought there were two teams.

Yes, you do need to explain why it is a lie. You keep saying I have lied, but that don't make it so.

You need to prove it.

I love how when you move your vote because of Benmage's requirement that is just fine, but when I did you try to tar it as some sort of scummy action. Hypocrisy FTW!

I made a case. You did not. You just sucked up to Benmage and voted me without saying why.

WHY! What on EARTH was townie about that post, it was FULL of completely FAIL responses to the case! OMG I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

Great, more rhetoric. I can do that too. Your case on me is pure fail, and it looks like you took those crazy pills already. See how much use saying that was? No? Me neither.

I'm calling TS/Feysal scum team right now.

If you want to embarrass yourself, go right ahead, don't let me stop you. Whether you succeed in getting me mislynched or not, my opinion of you will suffer from this. Fact remains, your case is about you not believing I would be competent enough to have the opinions I have without inside information, while at the same time accusing me of not playing at my fullest potential. The first point is insulting, and combined with the second it is ridiculous.

You mention in passing not liking his attack on Magua. You then say you have a scummy feel about him but won't put a vote there until you've read the whole thread and you will have to ISO read him. In your next post, you say you're all caught up but you don't mention diddin AT ALL. Seems pretty clear you never bothered to ISO him. It'd be one thing if after your read you no longer saw him as scummy, but that's supposedly not the case. The next (and only other thing) you say about him is this post I find so scummy where you throw in the little honorary "And from diddin". At the time you made this post, if you still had a scummy feel from him, why is this ALL you've said about him? Why didn't you bother to ISO him? Why didn't you mention him at all once you'd finished the thread?

There seems to be something amiss here. I did mention diddin in the post where I said I was completely caught up, that was the "And from diddin" post. Reason I did not say anything more about him was that while I still found him and zoraster scummy, I found both DGB and Raivann scummier, so I focused on the one I found scummiest.

As I've said, I think the reason is you were covering your bases. Every time you mentioned diddin D1 you called him scum, but did nothing else. Kept yourself open to bus him while keeping your vote and "suspicions" firmly elsewhere.

One question about this, would this not be something town could do as well? Do you expect me to push all of my scum reads with equal fervor, regardless of how scummy I find them? I pushed my main suspect and left my secondary suspects for later.

[Feysal]

I will say it is suspect that Feysal suddenly springs to life and starts posting right after his scum-meta is voiced.

I was prodded. I did not even know there was a case brewing on me at the time I started catching up.

Supplementing your theory with skimmed knowledge from a wiki with no direct source material knowledge is pretty bad play, IMO.

I think it is better than remaining completely in the dark about the source material. In my off-site games I've often not been familiar with the theme, and reading about it from a wiki has been helpful, so I did the same here.

My question about your thoughts – they all sprung from one of Raivann's WIFOM "Why was Chesskid killed" posts. If your suspicion of Raivann of scum is so high why would you answer his post directly as opposed to questioning his possible scum motivation for bringing up the Nightkill speculation?

It did not even occur to me to question him about it. I saw a question, I answered it, it is what I do.

1. You say 'the last person you saw'. This indicates you have seen others making that argument. What were the outcomes of those.

There was one time in Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War. One of the players had been considered obvtown for a while, and when we were about to elect him as Tribune, another player commented that he should not be considered untouchable even though he agreed on him being town. One of the Consuls said that this was undermining his credibility, and since he already had a scum read on him, he executed him at the first opportunity. He was wrong, it was a mislynch. What was even worse, the obvtown player was in fact scum, and the town should have questioned how he kept surviving night after night. The town lost.

2. Benmage made that exact observation in Clash and was dead-on. Additionally I see it elsewhere on site on a regular basis. Is your theory that an isolated incident that went the opposite of expecations should weigh more than other examples?

My theory is that no player should be considered untouchable if they're not completely confirmed. Reasonable suspicions should not be discouraged, by throwing a comment at you such as the one Zdenek made, or by calling it anti-town to suspect people not on Benmage's list. Note that I'm not saying whether it is reasonable to suspect Locke of being a serial killer, just that every case should be evaluated on its own merits, not based on who it was made against.

Twilight Sparkle is being suspected for more than just that. This attempt to minimize the rest of the case against them is noted.

The main point does seem to be that they're not being as pro-town as people expect though.

[Feysal]

Well, I certainly agree with the first point (in fact I still don't know why I was in the obv-scum category of every DGB scumlist yesterday), but doesn't the phrasing imply that choosing me over zoraster somehow has more relevance here? I get that you think I'm town at this point, which in itself still wasn't a great reason to suspect DGB, but the way you stated it suggested that there was a Locke-zoraster choice to make, and DGB chose the person who wasn't scum.

Maybe you can read it that way. No such implication was intended though, and there is still no implication of where my town read on you came from, like LMP keeps saying.

[Feysal]

Really? You are going to pretend you don't use context and your own reads to make judgements and scum-hunt and just derp derp derp along answering general questions you see?

Of course I do those things. I also answer questions and provide my opinions. You asked me why, in this specific instance, I answered the question instead of questioning Raivann's motives in asking it. I gave you my answer. It did not occur to me. I was much more interested in why Raivann had voted Song with no case and then started pushing her lynch. And for the record, I would never refuse to answer a question just because I suspected whoever asked it. I would consider doing that anti-town or scummy. Even when questioning others, I answer their questions directly, and in return expect them to answer mine.

This looks very much like a recitiation of your one example. That's again dodging the question I asked. Have you seen OTHER examples, and if so what were the outcomes?

I did answer your question, it is you who do not read very well. I said there was "one time". No others. If you think I implied more than one, check again what I said. The "last time" can just as well refer to the only time as to the last time of several.

Why are you asking me this anyway? I feel a discussion like this belongs into the MD forum and not in this thread.

And by the way, if you say this was "again" dodging your question, you'll have to point to where I dodged a question from you before.

Feysal seems really flustered that he can't get his precious Raivann mislynch today like he and his buddies had planned last night.

Rhetoric.

What are you doing in this game? All day you've been sheeping others and asking pointless questions, not contributing at all to finding scum.

[Feysal]

^ scummy. Talk about not scumhunting, huh Feysal?

I've mentioned before that I'm underwhelmed by DTMaster's contributions. Just because he is not doing scumhunting is no excuse why you should not.

I'm not agreeing with all this Thor/Raivann flip nonsense.

I'm actually null on Thor atm. Too many scummy players are saying he is scum.

This sounds like backtracking. You're worried about being seen as scum when Thor flips town, and you're trying to distance from the case you pushed all of yesterday.

Regarding Twilight Sparkle suggesting that LL is a serial killer: My knowledge of site meta isn't good enough, so I'd like to ask others (and especially Twilight Sparkle) about this: what do you think are the chances that the mods would put a serial killer in the game and a lyncher whose goal is to lynch the SK?

My knowledge of site meta is not good either, but it is no more than a loose guideline anyway. I think it is within the realm of possibility that Locke would be a serial killer. However, even if he is, today is not the time to speculate about that.

Yes, I saw the inconsistency regarding Zdenek from Twilight Sparkle...

Funny, I missed it. What was the inconsistency?[/quote]
You did not miss it, you mentioned it yourself in your last post:

For the record, the most likely scum on my wagon is Zdenek (will explain more in another post)...

Cognitive dissonance, hydra-schizophrenia, or softly attacking me as being "most likely scum on the wagon" while having a decent town-read on me. You also change your read of Nexus. Magua's also pointed these things out. I feel that you are adopting convenient reads rather than ones you actually believe in.

For the record, I consider this a case of hydra schizoprenia. The town read on you was posted by hitogoroshi, and the above quote by Mina.

There are a couple other points in your wall post that seem very poor, but I'll let Twilight Sparkle defend themselves from those if they wish.

-They do if I say they do.
-Because I have a town read on them... and am allowing them some allotted time to show enough others that they are town.

Sorry, but this all stems from 'Raivann still looks bad', and I think needs much more pressure without hiding behind an equal/opposing lynch like day 1.

So pressure him... I never said don't pressure anyone... He simply won't hang today.

Benmage, seriously. Your "my way or the highway" attitude is not only incredibly annoying, it is also supremely unhelpful. I'm going to require you to explain what you have a town read on Raivann for. Judging from what you said to Magua in your post #1016, it is not about diddin voting him, so what is it? Also, how do you think Raivann is using his allotted time, as you call it? I see him floating around doing nothing useful while blatantly sheeping you. That is not showing me that he would be town.

By the way, I looked through Raivann's other games to get a feel for his meta. I found that in his town games he actively scumhunts, comments on other players, and changes his vote in response to game events. His scum games however immediately reminded me of his play here. The way he still thought Locke was Petyr Baelish shows perfectly how disconnected he is from what is going on.

Finally, how do you expect anyone to pressure Raivann effectively without being allowed to vote or wagon him? Because you are giving him a pass, he can coast through today doing nothing, knowing that you won't allow him to be lynched. You're making no sense with that stance.

-So I named all the scum, and call town immune... and that has a negative effect on the game?

That is just insufferably arrogant of you to think you've named all the scum, and that you could not be wrong about any of your town reads. I bet that there is at least one scum among them. What you're doing had better be a today only thing.

I'll read the massive walls I saw in preview later.

[Feysal]

Which would you prefer? I'm leaning toward 2, but the drama of leaving you hanging and doing 1 first is tempting.

I like what is behind door number two, and I'm anxious to learn what door number ones yet hides. Though I think I can guess.

By the way, you answered one of the bad points I was referring to in my last post, but missed the other. Here it is.

There's no rule saying that all of your scumreads have to be on a scumteam together. It's sloppy to clear people as town based off of flips that haven't happened yet.

We think Thor has a very large chance of flipping scum, we think Raivann has a fairly large chance of flipping scum, and a scumflip on one virtually confirms the other as town. There's no contradiction here.

In the first paragraph, TS suggests that there we should assume that there is just one scum team, but in the second paragraph, TS argues that a scum flip of either Thor or Raivann would imply that the other is town, which is an argument that requires there be only one scum team.

I suppose that Zdenek means that the first paragraph suggests there being two scumteams, otherwise there is no point to any of this. Of course, the first paragraph is completely correct. I think I saw Jack say it best in another game... It is sound scumhunting to suspect someone and also suspect someone else who is attacking them in a suspicious way. It can be bussing, or you can be wrong about one of them. Neither of these possibilities require two scum teams.

Vote: Zdenek

Can you even provide those reasons now? I'm mostly interested in why you didn't bother to give them then, but I would like to see why you supposedly thought he was scummy. Was it

just

his attack on Magua that you mentioned?

There was his attack on Magua, yes. I found it scummy when he started it, and still found it scummy when it kept dragging on. There were also his interactions with DGB, especially this one.

So, you think that, phrasing it the way I did, I expect the vig to listen to me, rather than himself?

Answer yes or no.

Yes. You're well known on this site and your opinion is very influential to people.

DGB gave GreyICE a town read and asked him to be vigged at the same time. She was berated for that by diddin, but he never voted her, despite saying he was. Then the above comment really struck me as strange. DGB is indeed well known, but saying her opinion would be influential is an exaggeration. I have known her reads to be erratic, and I've heard some unfavorable descriptions of her play. There is no way I'd expect a vigilante to kill someone at her recommendation, particularly not a town read, and diddin thinking so was weird.

I've said what the reason was for not pushing this any further. I found diddin and zoraster scummy, but by the time I'd finished I'd noticed what I considered better cases, Raivann and DGB. I left my weaker suspects alone and focused on my better ones.

I don't think town is likely to do what you did, no. Finding someone scummy, saying you need to do an ISO and then never mentioning them again except to say you still think they're scummy. A townie would give reasons. I'm not convinced you had any reasons. I think you just wanted to be able to bus if needed.

Oh great. What I really hate about this "tell" is that according to it it is scummy to have correct suspicions if those suspicions are not strong enough for you to make a case and vote. Look at Benmage for instance. He has named a number of suspects, but he has not provided reasoning for most of them, nor has he voted them all. If one of them flips scum, will that make Benmage scummy? No, it does not.

YOU *rhetoric* SCUM *screaming in all caps* SCUM *foaming at the mouth* SCUMMY *jumping to conclusions* SCUM!!! FEYSAL IS ABOSLUTELY A STARK. PLEASE VOTE ACCORDINGLY.

And you accuse me of flailing.

I've answered your posts point by point, and you answer me with ...this. You seriously disappoint me. Shouting in all caps is not making you the least bit more credible, you're just making yourself look more and more foolish when I eventually flip. I especially hate how you accuse me of twisting your words, since the core of your case on me is about

you

twisting

my

words in an incomprehensible manner.

THIS
IS
A
LIE

I've already quoted the sequence of posts at least 2 times. I'm not doing it again.

If you won't, I will.

I had a look back at what DGB did at the start of the thread. She posted her first list of reads fairly early, though it was after Locke had called her out for not doing it. She then gave Locke a scum read. She left out LynchMePls from her first scum list, MoI noticed she was still voting him, and she added him to her scum list in her next post. Oddly, she mentioned that hasdgfas could be faking in both of her first lists, but it was not until Magua bet that he was faking that DGB moved hasdgfas to her scum list and began to push him.

And get this: throughout the game, despite pushing for hasdgfas, DGB always kept her original random-stage vote on LynchMePls, who she never tried to push. Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town.

This is where, according to you, I said that I had a town read on Locke based on his interactions with DGB and zoraster. Let me walk you through this simple exercise in reading comprehension.

"I had a look back at what DGB did..." This should be your first clue. I'm talking about DGB and why she is scummy. I am not talking about why anyone else would be town or scummy. See? In the first paragraph I also mention how Locke called out DGB and how DGB gave him a scum read. There is nothing yet about what my read on Locke is, or why.

The second paragraph starts with more about DGB. I'm still talking about what makes her scummy. See? There is nothing about Locke in that first sentence, so we're only interested in the second. "Only now she moved her vote to Locke, and between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town." The start says nothing about my read of Locke, only that DGB moved her vote to him, with the implication that this is scummy, since she delayed so long to do it. The remainder is the first time I say anything about my read on Locke. I say that between him and zoraster, I'm more confident of Locke being town, the implication being that DGB is scummy for voting specifically Locke. As Locke himself pointed out, zoraster has nothing to do with this really, he had just stuck in my mind with Locke. Anyway, all I'm really saying about Locke is that he is more likely town than zoraster. There is absolutely nothing there about my reason why.

So.

Where the hell do you see me saying that my town read on Locke would be based on interaction with DGB or zoraster?

This is what I told you had to prove, and you oh so eloquently said that you already had. You have not.

FLAIL FOR ME BUDDY!

No. I've matched you point by point, while you have been increasingly resorting to rhetoric, shouting in all caps, appealing to the mob, and just plain dodging my points by repeatedly saying I am lying. Stop, calm down, and see if you can reply to me in a rational manner for a change.

Fact remains, your case is based on a failure of reading comprehension on your part. I have never said what you claim that I did.

Oh, and one more thing. I expect that this will end either in my lynch or you killing me tomorrow night. When that happens, I will require a personal apology from you. Just you. Before that, don't you dare "buddy" me.

WOO BOY! Nice Buddy to Xtoxm there. He thinks Xtoxm gives a good suggestion "for someone with a single post", but then disagrees with the suggestion saying we should give the governor to someone who will use it. So basically the whole purpose of mentioning Xtoxm there was to buddy him. What alignment was he again... oh right, Stark.

At the time there was talk about how to get rid of the governor power, and suggestions had been made to give it to GreyICE (unacceptable) or engineer a draw in votes (impractical). Xtoxm had the best practical solution of giving the power to the day's lynch, so I pointed out. What, do you expect me to guess based on a single post that he would flip scum?

Preview edit: the posts just keep coming... I'll just post this now and not make this wall any longer than it already is.

[Feysal]

The "last time" can just as well refer to the only time as to the last time of several.

Splitting hairs noted. You only specified it was the one time after I enquired about it. That you didn't originally say "the one time" but instead "last time" indicates a level of attempted linguistic obfuscation.

You know, I'm having a problem with what you're saying here. Time to have a look at how this discussion has developed.

#1235 - Zdenek says, in response to Twilight Sparkle, that undermining players who most players are perceiving as almost confirmed town is scummy.
#1238 - I respond to Zdenek with the counterargument that the last person I saw using his argument was wrong. I made my point clear: no one is above reasonable suspicion.
#1274 - You question me about my counterargument, subtly defending Zdenek.
#1279 - I answer your questions. I also clearly say that there was one time.
#1282 - You continue questioning me about my answer, having clearly missed that I spoke of one time. You also accuse me of dodging your question again.
#1289 - I point out explicitly that there was only one time, and that I'd never claimed to have more. I also ask you questions of my own.

...And so we have come to your above quote, where you accuse me of splitting hairs and deliberate linguistic obfuscation. Do you see what the problem is? We've come a long way from what the original argument and counterargument were about. Whether I said "the last time" or "the only time" is completely irrelevant, either way the point I was making was completely clear (it was actually "the last person" by the way, as I just checked). Also, considering that you accused me of dodging questions, I find it very odd that you would completely ignore mine.

What I'm thinking about right now is that this is an example of you questioning people on trivial and irrelevant matters. I feel that you're not hunting for scum, you're hunting for weaknesses you could spin into a mislynch. How many times I've seen Zdenek's comment used has nothing to do with the current game, and your attempt to cast it as scummy that I was not explicit about it is in itself splitting hairs.

Question time.

1. What was the purpose of the questions concerning my counterargument you asked in post #1274?
2. In particular, why did you ask me about other examples and their outcomes? How would they be relevant to the current game?
3. Where have I dodged a question from you before? Your use of "again" clearly implied I had.
4. Why did you not answer the above two questions when they were originally asked?
5. What would be my purpose in obfuscating how many times I've seen the original argument used? Since you seem to imply that this is scummy, you need to show what I would gain from this as scum.

I await your answers. Meanwhile, I have a feeling that I would find a lot more of such meaningless questions from your ISO.

I thought you were an antagonist to my "acceptable lynches".

I am. I'm also a realist. Staying on a case that had no chance of going anywhere was useless.

You think DGB is going to

get caught

ever think of committing an OMGUS-tell as scum?

Sure, why not? I don't have any other explanation for why she gave Locke a scum read. His only post with content at the time DGB first called him scum was where he attacked DGB.

That's a town failure for not questioning why someone so town never got NK'd.

That was precisely my point. One player

did

question, and he was rewarded by having Zdenek's comment thrown at him and being mislynched. That is why I disapprove of it.

I'm not a fan of Feysal talking about how stupid LMP is going to look when he flips; I think it's a sign of the survival instinct coming out.

If you had some fool screaming at you that you're lying when you're not, I'd bet you'd be upset too, and have some choice words you'd want to say. I'm not sure if you're the type who would say them out loud, but I would, I have and I will.

Oh, and note that I'm fully aware that I'm dead either way. If I'm not lynched, I'm going to be nightkilled.

[Feysal]

Fey: What makes you say if you're not going to be lynched, you're going to be NKed?

The fact that LynchMePls is the one pushing for my death. He killed Chesskid, and I expect that if he can't have his way by day he will kill me by night.

[Feysal]

That's great... I'm having a problem with the manner in which you are trying to frame the discussion so that I don't have a legitimate reason to question you.

What? You will either explain how I'm supposedly doing that, or this is just mudslinging.

Here you are arguing that you made your point clear that no-one should be under suspicion and that my questioning you isn't scum-hunting. You are once again missing the point of my concern.

Yes I was. That's why I asked. And it was above suspicion, not under.

Having read your response, I can say that your logic fails you, MoI. I wanted to know why it was supposedly scummy of me to not specify how many times I'd seen Zdenek's comment used. You said that you suspected me of cherry picking examples that supported my stance. Nice try, but your answer is flawed.

The problem is that you accused me of linguistic obfuscation in post #1353. By then it was well established that I had exactly one example, and you can't cherry pick from a sample size of one. Therefore your suspicion was no longer valid at the time you made the accusation. It did not make much sense to begin with either, since I clearly specified it was the "last person". Even if I had had more examples, I could not have picked which of them was the last.

You also said that I reacted defensively to being questioned about other occasions. In fact I answered directly the first time you asked, but you continued to press the matter, having obviously misunderstood me. You criticize me for "making a linguistic argument out of it" instead of simply stating that my phrasing was unclear. Say what? That was exactly what I did, I even pointed out exactly where and how it was unclear, explaining how your misunderstanding had arisen.

I have not ignored the counterexample you provided, I simply choose to trust my own experience. I am reminded of my first game ever, where one player was considered town for having been verifiably targeted by mafia. On the last day I realized he'd been playing me for a fool, and he was in fact a member of another mafia faction. I will not put my faith in a generic tell that would discourage players from voicing reasonable suspicions.

The again is in regards to you dodging questions from players in general, not specifically me. It apparently wasn't phrased as clearly as it should have been.

I'll say.

That's again dodging

the question I asked

.

Emphasis by me. The question remains then, where have I supposedly dodged questions from anyone at all? I do not recall doing so.

[Feysal]

The problem is that you accused me of linguistic obfuscation in post #1353. By then it was well established that I had exactly one example, and you can't cherry pick from a sample size of one. Therefore your suspicion was no longer valid at the time you made the accusation. It did not make much sense to begin with either, since I clearly specified it was the "last person". Even if I had had more examples, I could not have picked which of them was the last.

That's not an accusation, it was a conclusion Feysal. The linguistic obfuscation where you tried to explain that the phrase "the last person" is synonymous with "the only person" (which it is not) is an additional scummy layer to your play.

You continue to fail, MoI. According to your own words, what you called linguistic obfuscation was only scummy because it obscured cherry picking on my part, a theory that has been disproven by the fact that there are no other examples. Whether you call it a conclusion or accusation does not matter, either way your logic has been proven unsound, and you dodging this fact is scummy.

In addition, you saying that I'd have said those things were synonymous is a misrep. This is what I actually said:

The "last time" can just as well refer to the only time as to the last time of several.

I've quite clearly explained why I find your "No-one is above suspicion" explanation scummy. Here again you are attempting to say that your linguistic argument is the only thing that I found scummy when it is clearly not. The manner in which you reacted with said linguistic argument adds to the scumminess.

Another misrep. I have not claimed that the linguistic argument would be the only thing you found scummy about me, I am claiming that the linguistic argument does not make sense, and you are trying to deflect this by talking about other things.

For a

third

misrep, I've repeatedly asked you where I dodged questions like you accused me of doing. The first time you dodged it, apparently because you mistook it for a rhetorical question. Admittedly it was not phrased as a question then. The second time you claimed that you were talking about dodging questions from other players instead of you, in blatant contradiction to what you originally said. I asked you for a third time now, and you ignored it completely. You will either provide examples or admit that you were painting me black with a baseless accusation.

Nice. You are presented with not one but two direct counter-examples that show your stance isn't strong and your response is to "choose to trust my own experience". That's fine. I'll trust my own experience which says someone making the arguments you have made in the manner they have made them is scum.

What the hell do you expect? That I should automatically discard my own experience when you disagree? No way. As for you, you're about to learn why I spoke of a generic tell. There are exceptions to every rule, and ignoring that fact is a severe flaw in a player.

Why is it that everything I say you seem to consider scummy? Oh right. Because that is what you are doing. For the record, ignoring the town side of an argument is a major scumtell for me. I've never liked your posts in this game, and after this exchange I have a definite scum read on you. I know I'm a dead man, whether by lynch or nightkill, and right now I'm not afraid of accusing anyone.

[Feysal]

I have defended myself for a long while now, and it has fallen on deaf ears. You need only look into my ISO to find long wall posts where I have refuted the arguments made against me. I am especially disappointed by LynchMePls who, instead of responding to my counterarguments like a rational individual, resorted to rhetoric and appeals to the mob and screamed in all caps like a raving lunatic that I was lying. Thereafter he has ignored my posts. How am I to defend myself if my opponent refuses to even talk to me?

For the record, if there is anything good about this train wreck, it is that it has given me a solid town read on Setael. She considered my counterarguments, and her reasons for suspecting me are better than LMP's in the first place, but especially the following two quotes make me give her a town read as strong as the one I have on Locke.

Ok so what about MY statements? LMP is not the only one posting about Feysal.

@LL: I resent you giving full credit for the Feysal case to LMP. I'll let it slide this once. /partial sarcasm

No scum in their right mind will ever, under any circumstances, demand recognition and credit for pushing a mislynch.

You of course don't have the advantage of knowing I am town yet, but I expect that will be remedied soon enough.

The only thing I can still say in my defense without repeating myself is who I am. However, I very much doubt my claim will help me any, in fact it is more likely to result in my quicklynch. Therefore I'll only claim when I am sufficiently prepared for death, which right now I am not.

[Feysal]

Okay. I've decided to make one more attempt to defend myself, and then drop it. To this end, I will summarize the case against me and provide my responses to each point made against me.

Point One: Inside information

This is what LynchMePls began to push me for. He claims that in post #538 I gave Locke a town read based on his interactions with DGB and zoraster. This would imply that I was working on the assumption that there was a single scum team, which I contradicted in post #628 by saying I believed there were two. Finally, at the start of the second day, I concluded that one scum team was more likely in light of new information in post #1026. According to LynchMePls, I first slipped that I had inside information, then backtracked, and finally changed my mind again.

This is the point that I hate most of all. I simply never said what LynchMePls claims I did. My town read on Locke was not due to interactions with anyone, and therefore the supposed slip of inside information is not even incorrect, it is nonexistent. I've repeatedly tried to explain this to LynchMePls, last time in post #1346, but he has only screamed at me that I am lying or ignored me. Instead he has bullied and attacked other players for disbelieving him, like Bunnylover in post #1254 and danakillsu in post #1441.

Oddly enough, though he has ceased to respond to me, LynchMePls contradicted his own case while responding to Magua in post #1326. His second theory that I would know that there are two scum teams invalidates what he called an inside information slip in the first place. The one he screamed I was lying about. He is actually trying to claim that I must have been lying about something no matter how many scum teams there are, while ignoring the fact that many others shared my belief in one scum team when day two started. In his later posts, LynchMePls is usually not even accusing me of inside information any more, and he clearly should not, since he seems unsure exactly what inside information I would even have.

I declare that point one is pure fail, and based on nothing but LynchMePls sucking at reading comprehension.

Point Two: connections to diddin and Xtoxm

This point is mainly by Setael, and I concede it is the strongest part of the case on me. The point is that I called diddin scummy several times on day one, but I never voted or pushed him. This would supposedly be scum distancing. The only thing LynchMePls contributed to this point is the connection to Xtoxm. I mentioned him once in a positive connection, and this would supposedly be scum buddying each other.

My answer to why I did not vote or push diddin is that at first I did not want to place an uninformed vote while I was catching up, and when I had caught up I had found other suspects more deserving of my vote. For the same reason I did not ISO read diddin or try to make a case on him, he was simply a secondary suspect and I saw bigger fish to fry. LynchMePls of course does not accept this, when I confronted him with the fact that he was also voting Raivann when I was, he completely dodged it in his response post #1254. For the record, this is what he actually said when I was voting Raivann on day one:

Raivann is being criminally undervoted.

Clearly LynchMePls is being hypocritical when criticizing me for voting Raivann. The only difference to himself is that I had noticed diddin also and he had not.

As for Xtoxm, I am supposedly scummy for buddying another scum. Thus this point tries to claim that I am scummy for distancing diddin and buddying Xtoxm. This makes no sense, particularly not that I would buddy lurking scum with only one post.

For those of you who wonder why I mentioned Xtoxm at all, you have to see my post in context. The post in question was #325, written after reading pages 6-11. One major topic of discussion in those pages was what to do with the governor ability, and several suggestions were made for how to get rid of it. GreyICE was of course demanding it for himself, to never be used. Kast suggested arranging a draw for raise votes, so the ability would never be given to anyone. Benmage and MoI suggested wasting it on someone early. Then along comes Xtoxm with the most practical solution of them all, give it to the lynch of the day, who can't use it to save himself. I of course did not want to waste the ability (though had I known what Benmage would do with I may have thought otherwise), but Xtoxm still had the best solution for how to get rid of the power, if that was what the town wanted to do.

Note that there was more to this discussion than the posts I linked to, those were just the suggestions for what to do with the governor power. My mention of Xtoxm was intended as part of that discussion, and nothing else.

So much for point two. I say that Setael has made the best contributions to the case against me, and crediting the case as a whole to LynchMePls is doing her misjustice. That is also why I have gained a strong town read on her: scum would not demand credit for pushing a mislynch.

Point three: zoraster and Locke

This one was brought up by Locke. He wondered why I mentioned zoraster at all together with him in my post #538. My answer was that zoraster indeed had nothing to do with the point I was making, and that he had simply stuck in my mind with Locke.

I might as well explain that a bit further. That post was written after reading from page 14 to the end of the thread. Near the start of that page, zoraster called Locke "pretty scummy" and voted him. That caught my attention, and since I'd noticed no such thing, I wondered if I'd missed something. I began to pay closer attention to what Locke was saying, and discovered I liked his posts. Thus I gave him a town read. On the other hand, as I read the thread up to page 22, zoraster had a long series of posts devoid of scumhunting and pushing any of his suspects. Thus I gave him a scum read.

Simply put, what zoraster said about Locke caught my attention. This does not mean I'd have given them reads based on any interaction between them, Locke appeared townish to me independently of zoraster and zoraster appeared scummy independently of Locke. But they were still stuck in my mind together at the time I finished my read and wrote post #538 because of why I'd begun to pay them attention to begin with.

I don't think I can explain this any better. Onwards to the last point.

Point Four: Semantics

For this one credit (or blame) goes exclusively to MoI. According to his conclusion in post #1353 I was scummy for linguistic obfuscation. I asked him what the scum motivation would be for obscuring how many times I'd seen Zdenek's comment used, and in post #1407 he answered that because my stance was scummy and I was cherry picking events from prior games to support my stance.

Of course, MoI's logic is flawed. By the time he posted his conclusion, it had been established that I had only encountered Zdenek's comment once before, and thus from a sample size of one no cherry picking was possible. As for having a stance that he considered scummy, I was able to point to a past game where using Zdenek's comment contributed to a mislynch and the town loss, and the obvtown player the mislynched player had suspected was in fact scum. I am not obligated to discard my own experience in favor of MoI's. And after a little digging, I found a quote from myself from that game, where I disagreed with that tell the first time I saw it:

Add on 'Does his damnest to undermine the credibility of anyone who isn't mod-confirmed Town' to the list of reasons why Nathanael is probably Scum.

This was in response to Nathanael talking about The Fonz, and how he did not like him being made untouchable. It was a valid concern, we should not forget that clever scum can sometimes masquerade as obvtown. That said, I do trust The Fonz. Unlike Primate who I believed town because everyone else did, I am sure that my read on The Fonz is my own.

I was town in this game. My opinion of this tell being poor has only been strengthened after seeing how it contributed to a mislynch and the town loss.

I consider point four disproven in its entirety.

There, all done. I think I covered all the concerns people have raised against me. If I missed something, do point it out.

Because I realized that trying to convince YOU that you are scum is POINTLESS. I have not dropped the case, I'm simply taking my case to people who can actually be persuaded.

I could not disagree more with this. By refusing to acknowledge me you are denying me the chance to defend myself, and you are avoiding having to answer for your flawed arguments. You are hiding behind an excuse, and if you had not confessed to killing Chesskid, I would call you scum for it.

By itself is it strong evidence of Feysal-scum? No, not really. But when added with the very strong scummy interactions with diddin, it makes it fairly strong circumstantial evidence that Feysal is connected with the Starks. Add on top the D1 suggestion that there was only 1 scum team, that he then back tracked under pressure, but then re-asserted when D2 started, and the whole thing stinks.

I love how you admit that the evidence is circumstantial. Answer then, if you can, how does one avoid being scummy then if anyone you mention in your posts can flip scum and damn you by association? If merely mentioning a scum player regardless of context is a scumtell, it sounds like the only safe way to play mafia is to never talk about anyone at all. You are making yourself ridiculous.

Hold on. This is not what I expected at all. You soft claimed a PR, which is why I originally moved my vote. Once I became more sure you're scum, I expected a big fancy fake PR claim from you. If your claim won't help you like you say, then why did you say this:

You expected correctly. I do in fact have a minor power role. I also know it is exactly the sort of claim that scum would make under pressure, so it is unlikely to help me, but sharing what I've done with it is still better than being killed during the night. The worst part though is my name. I've heard two players claim that there is no way my character would be town aligned, and that is why I fear my claim will result in my quicklynch. But I can't help that, my role is what it is.

Time to claim, while there is still time for discussion before the deadline.

I am Petyr Baelish aka Littlefinger, voyeur, Lannister aligned.

My one and so far only target has been Kast. He was not visited by anyone else last night.

[Feysal]

Does your role PM say both names? What's your flavour for voyeur?

Role flavor coming right up (paraphrased of course).

You are Petyr Baelish, aka Littlefinger, Lannister aligned. You are a mystery, a man who lives for schemes and intrigue, at times apparently for their own sake. For the time being you are pleased to support the Lannisters in fighting their foes, which is good news indeed for House Lannister.

You are a voyeur. Every night you may send me the name of another player and if your action succeeds, I will inform you if that player was targeted that night, though not by who.

I thought Littlefinger was a dirty traitor?

...which is exactly why I said my role claim would be quicklynch material.

[Feysal]

Wouldn't Benmage have been the obv. player to watch last night?

I never even considered targeting him.

Last night I considered what kind of players I would be targeting. Would it be the townish ones, or the scummy ones, or the null reads? I decided against targeting a townish player, since the most likely outcome would be, except for learning nothing at all, was that the player had been killed and I would be no wiser. By targeting a scummy player I might learn of another investigative role, and I would be able to confirm their claim later. Then I thought about the null players, and decided that a smart investigator would not be checking the scummiest players by night, you're better off lynching them by day and reducing the number of null reads by focusing on those.

There were a number of null reads I considered after deciding I'd target one of them. The three most serious candidates were LynchMePls, Mikujin and Kast. I finally picked Kast pretty much at random. I had no read on him based on his day one play, and I hoped someone else would be interested in him. No one was.

[Feysal]

So... why did you say you would be unhappy if you were killed without a chance to claim if you a) thought your claim would seem scummy and not in any way help prevent your lynch and b) you had no useful info that needed shared?

Basically because I

would

have been unhappy to be killed without claiming. Even if the claim was scummy, it would still be better than not to claim at all. As for useful information, it is probably useless to know that Kast was not targeted by anyone, but I do have the potential of confirming power claims by other people (DGB comes to mind immediately). Taking the chance of claiming and perhaps surviving to obtain useful information on later nights sure beats dying by a misplaced vig kill.

[Feysal]

Didn't Zoraster's first fake-claim involve Littlefinger?

Yes it did. Why he did that I cannot know, nor am I responsible for his lies.

Plus, if Littlefinger-voyeur is your claim, why would you be "unhappy if you were killed without a chance to claim". DOES NOT COMPUTE.

If you think that all caps makes you any more convincing, you are sadly mistaken. Also, I already answered this, but I will require you to explain why it "does not compute". It is a power role after all. Do you think it would be better to die with it without claiming?

This claim doesn't seem right to me. It smells like scum. This lynch should happen.

Not that I did not anticipate this, I will also require you to explain why you have a problem with my claim. It seems that no matter what I say, you invariably consider it scummy, and never even consider that you could be wrong. And that, of course, is not pro-town play.

Feysal, do you learn the nature of the targetted action, or just that there was one or more actions that targetted someone?

I don't know. What I wrote in #1498 is all I was told. I will be told if my target is targetted, but not by who, is all my role PM said. There was no mention of whether I'd be told what the actions were, or even how many there were.

[Feysal]

Considering the italicized part is apparently itself a quote from the book, I don't know why I'd have to paraphrase that.

I did warn you not to trust me, you know.

...is what it says.

[Feysal]

I looked back to see any Feysal posts after zoraster's fakeclaim. But alas Feysal was nowhere to be found.

I don't think I was even online at mafiascum.net that night. If I was, I was only reading posts earlier, and by the time zoraster claimed I had left. I only learned what had happened the following day.

Have a look at my location. It says "Finland", and has said that since I joined this site. My time zone is GMT+2, meaning zoraster claimed at 3:43 AM my time. I am sometimes up and posting that late, but not that night.

You've been doing this to me all game. Even after Benmage gave me a 1 day pass so that other players could share some time in the spotlight, like yourself.

I'm frustrated because I've said and done quite a bit, and it has been ignored. LynchMePls is being relentless and irrational in his tunneling of me. Meanwhile, how have you spent your day pass? Coasting. Sheeping. Not scumhunting, questioning, commenting, or doing anything else townish that would earn you anything more than a scum read. Or have you? How would you characterize your play today? What have you spent your time doing, and why?

Feysal - if multiple people target your target are you told how many people visited your target?

Magua already asked me that. My answer is here.

By the way, on the topic of Twilight Sparkle. I don't know about Sotty being sick, but I can vouch for Mina being away and hitogoroshi being busy due to another game I'm in with them. Therefore, I find that the hydra's lackluster play during day one is understandable.

[Feysal]

Why so many people keep saying I should have targeted Benmage or hasdgfas, whether as watcher or voyeur, is beyond me. Benmage is in no way confirmed, and his contributions to scumhunting have so far been minimal. As for hasdgfas, he may be confirmed non-Stark, but he is also post restricted. Few people are even trying to make sense of what he is saying, and I've seen more people misunderstand him than interpret him correctly. Neither of them is a serious threat to the scum. Locke however is practically confirmed non-Stark and he can talk normally. If I were to target an obvious town read, it would be him.

And as I've already explained, targeting a town read as voyeur is pointless. Most likely I would learn nothing, or I would learn that my target had been killed, which I would learn anyway from the morning post. If I was lucky I might pick the same target as a doctor, and what would that tell me? That there is a doctor, and he is not totally incompetent with town reads. It would tell me that my target was probably town, which I would've thought anyway. In other words, it would tell me nothing new or useful.

However, if I managed to target someone who was investigated, that would tell me plenty of things. If the following day no one stood up and claimed the investigation, and no one seriously pushed the target, that would tell me that the investigator had apparently received a town result. Had Kast been investigated last night, I would now know that the investigation result was town, since no one has pushed him all day. If someone had claimed the investigation and started to push Kast, I could've supported that someone.

Simply put, I picked a target that I had a null read on, and some people had found scummy. I believed I could learn something far more useful from that than from targeting any townish player.

[Feysal]

What are you talking about? I just explained why it does

not

make sense to target an obvious town read as voyeur.

And the obvious answer to Locke's question is of course that a target was investigated. Not to mention, the odds of picking a target that was both protected and killed are minimal, and not worth trying for.

[Feysal]

I need to tiptoe really, really carefully around this, but I need to check out Consulmaker II to get a hint of how Feysal reacts to being wagoned as town.

That game won't help you I'm afraid, since it did not use votes, and I never was wagoned. The only game I can point you to is Halloween Saw-themed mafia, an off-site game, and the only time I've ever been this close to lynch. Oddly enough, I've never been lynched as town. The wagon on me occurs around pages 85-90.

On Thor: I cannot know why he is defending me like he is doing, but I can hazard a guess. As far as I know, he is more intimately familiar with my scum play than anyone else in the game. More I cannot say.

I think I'm going to shut up and let hito do the defending from now on. Otherwise, my posts will deteriorate into, "Anyone who was, is, or ever will be voting for us is stupid and sucks at Mafia, I hope you feel soooooooo guilty when we flip, and please DIAF." And then people will be all, "Look at the scum flailing! Her appeal to emotion

IS NOTED

." And then that will appeal to my own emotion of blind rage, and I'll end up arrested for manslaughter.

Reading this gave me some laughs. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one harboring violent fantasies about other players. Mine involve LynchMePls and sharp stakes. Not anyone else though.

[Feysal]

Feysal's lack of a "these are my final reads, use them when I pass away" post is making me itchy anyway.

I've been pressed for time, to the point that I've been neglecting another game in favor of this one, and with no one listening to me anyway, I've had trouble summoning the energy to put my reads together. But if you want them, here are some.

Bunnylover

Town. And

not

a village idiot. Her thoughts and opinions have been few, but I've liked most of them, and diddin's attacks on her in posts #887 and #938 are a dead giveaway that she is not a Stark. All the more embarrassing for all those currently nominating her. She could be a valuable player if she got over her self esteem problem and stopped being afraid of making mistakes. Those happen, to everyone, they are part of the game. I for one have seen enough of her play to say that calling her a village idiot is not helping her improve, and doing her misjustice to begin with.

Setael

Town. Definite town, as much if not more than Locke. This is the third time I'm saying it, and I want it to be absolutely clear that no one has an excuse for having missed this if they ever

think

of voting her. This is the reason why:

Ok so what about MY statements? LMP is not the only one posting about Feysal.

@LL: I resent you giving full credit for the Feysal case to LMP. I'll let it slide this once. /partial sarcasm

No scum in their right mind will demand recognition and credit for their contributions to a mislynch. Therefore she

must

be town.

Thor

Town... though this read is considerably weaker than the above two. I thought about his defense of me, and given how many people are already suspecting him, putting himself on the line is too brave a move to come from scum. I'm sure he knows that me flipping town would not earn him town credit, but rather people would suspect him only more for supposedly having inside information of my alignment. Therefore he is town.

DrippingGoofball

Who the hell knows. I wrote a case on her in post #1238 about her odd suspects and votes during day one, and about her lurking day two. Since then I've seen more strangeness to add to her case.

#1339 - DGB defends me with meta, but from where? She has never actually seen me lynched.
#1347 - DGB gives me a town read.
#1377 - DGB explains her town read of me with me sounding honest. Okay. She also claims having been told by the mod that both Benmage and DTMaster are town. Err... what?
#1393 -

DGB votes me. Despite having a town read on me. Because, as she says, the wagon on me is "full of wholesome townie goodness". My wagon consists of LynchMePls and Setael, both of them her scum reads until a few posts ago, and Locke, who she called scum until she was confronted with that not making sense. What the hell?

#1465 - DGB calls me town again. Calls attention to it even.
#1466 - DGB unvotes me and votes Zdenek.
#1521 - When I suggest using my power to confirm her claim, DGB claims having been told the result from someone else's action. Backtracking?

So, DGB would have us believe that someone investigated Benmage and DTMaster in one night, and sent both results to her. Right. The only reason I'm not calling her obvious scum is because this is DGB we're talking about, and I have seen her reads change at the drop of a hat as town. But even for her... this is a bit much.

Raivann

I explained my case on him in detail in post #811 on the first day. He could never provide a reasonable explanation for his actions. He voted Song/Thor basically without reason, and then tried to make up a case around his vote. It could not look more fake. Today he has exploited his pass from Benmage to do nothing. He has coasted all day, and when confronted about it his posts have reeked of AtE (#1525, #1592) instead of him actually

doing something

. And of course, he calls me town in post #1546 and votes me in his next post #1592. Blatant sheeping of whereever the wind is blowing.

Why Raivann has been allowed to play like this unfathomable. I consider him obvious scum. I look forward to seeing how Benmage explains his town read on him from post #1349 (contradicting yourself is whimsical town?) and LynchMePls from post #1437 (can't remember Raivann doing anything quite as scummy as Bunnylover? Do you remember

voting him for it?

). Raivann has had his chance. Now he has to die.

More later, maybe.

[Feysal]

@DGB-
Pretending for one second that you have a 100% guaranteed, mod-confirmed clear of Feysal:
-Which is better, No Lynch or Mislynch?

Pointless question really. If I was mod-cleared, that would be equivalent to a flip already, and I would not have a wagon on me in the first place.

I actually have one more final post after this, but I don't expect I'll post that until after I've been hammered, though I am preparing it in advance. It is ...controversial.

[Feysal]

I said I'd have one final post for after I'd been hammered, and this is it. It is addressed directly to LynchMePls.

First off, let me be the first to congratulate you for your excellent scumhunting skills. Clearly you have developed in unprecedented ways since our early games together on diii.net, and seeing you in action is an amazing sight to behold. No, don't be too modest, this lynch was undoubtedly the result of your diligence and tireless effort, though you needed others to cast the necessary votes. Of course some of them took some persuasion, and you had to be harsh, but surely that was for their own good. After all, everyone can't be such a great player as you, and the lost sheep need a shining town beacon such as yourself to guide them. Following your lead and the example you have set should clearly be the goal all of us should strive for, and unworthy though I may be, I have written this simple guide to your scumhunting methods so that others might follow in your footsteps and achieve greatness.

1. Pick a player. Any player will do.
2. Accuse your target of something. Don't worry about the details, you can make them up as you go.
3. When your target defends himself, scream that he is lying and bury him under walls of rhetoric. Then ignore him. This is a convenient way of avoiding having to answer for the flaws and logic gaps in your case, and lets you concentrate on what truly matters, getting more votes.
4. Bully. Threaten. Beg. Pleade. Do whatever it takes to get others to vote your target. If someone makes a better argument against your target than you, steal it and start using it as if it had been your case all along. If someone makes an argument in favor of your target, accuse them of being scum with him.
5. When your target claims, call it scummy. Do not explain why, even if someone asks, especially if it is your target.
6. Keep pushing for the lynch. Do not listen to any counterarguments, they are probably from scum anyway. You can deal with them later.
7. When your target flips town, don't worry, that is normal. Try again.
8. Rinse and repeat until the town loses or lynches you.

...

Spoiler: Back to reality

WHAT THE HELL MADE YOU THINK DOING THAT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA, YOU INCOMPETENT ASS OF A SCUMHUNTER!?

Ahem.

You seem to be confused about the basic premise of the game. It is to

talk to other people

and try to figure out whether they are scum from what they say. Therefore, deliberately not to listen to someone you suspect is extremely anti-town. You could be wrong about them. Your suspicion could be based on a misunderstanding on your part they could correct you on. When you refuse to listen and tunnel relentlessly on your suspect, you have ceased to be a scumhunter and become a mislynch automaton.

I have never been lynched as town. It has been a matter of pride for me, though I knew it could not last forever. But I never expected that would end with you completely failing at reading comprehension, and instead of listening to reason, screaming like a bloody lunatic that I was lying. And that I find almost impossible to forgive.

FEYSAL IS ABSOLUTELY A STARK. PLEASE VOTE ACCORDINGLY.

I will not soon forget these words. And I will make sure that you won't forget them either.

I wish the town luck. I wish you a timely and bloody death. These statements are not mutually exclusive. The sooner you die, the sooner you stop being the cause of mislynches and misvigs.

And so, I will finish my play in this game with the following sincere and heartfelt statement:

To hell with you.

[Feysal]

Presenting, Raivann as town as

A Game of Thrones Mafia

.

In my case you're preaching to the choir. I have checked Raivann in

all

of his games on site a while back. His play here is exactly like his play in three scum games including Clash of Kings, and nothing like his town play, of which I saw several games worth (nothing like his play as a serial killer either for the record). He is dead obvious scum on meta, and how and why he was given a pass today is truly incredible.

LMP can go to hell for all I care, but he had better take Raivann there with him.