New Designer Mafia (Victor(s) are crowned)

[zoraster]

[zoraster]

Again with the freaking inane massclaims. Cant you people just catch scum without the theatrics? What is this crap? What stopping the scum from just making shit up? Isnt that the whole point of this? How much more mass confusion are you inspiring to create?

Scum are the only ones that benefit from this. It creates chaos and uncertainty. Youre not being clever here, all youre doing is playing into the scum's game.
So a big screw you to whoever came up with this insipid idea, they get my vote and my ire.

Vote: Xalxe

May you burn in mafia hell, scum.

First, it's not really a mass claim. We're claiming roles we submitted. That's way different. Do you need it explained to you how it's different? How precisely do you think scum benefits from this when there are probably 50+ submitted roles? Hmm?

Second, I suggested it first.

Third, "confusion." Hah. As if the start of every large theme game isn't filled with confusion (or every game for that matter). Yes, I agree we shouldn't spend much time going back and forth about it, wasting our time, but that's not really what we're doing here.

VOTE: Internet Stranger

I think he's one of those scum who thinks that being aggressive and contrarian about every possible thing will make him seem pro-town. It does not.

[zoraster]

Oh, and my roles were called:

Yancy (the role wouldn't really work if i revealed what it does or be fun for the person playing it)
Time Traveling Killer
Handwriter.

[zoraster]

ok
this wagon is fucking horrible

o m g you said fuck so it must add extra-special insight!

Listen, there are 12 needed to lynch, it's the first page, and there are TWO people on the "wagon" you're complaining about.

[zoraster]

ok
this wagon is fucking horrible

o m g you said fuck so it must add extra-special insight!

Listen, there are 12 needed to lynch, it's the first page, and there are TWO people on the "wagon" you're complaining about.

I see it forming. I see many easy votes added to this craptastic wagon, and I am heading it off.

Anybody seen IS play a game/played a game with IS? This is far from unusual for him, and I see where' he's coming from.

If someone would like to explain a vote on him with something OTHER than rhetoric, I'd be more than happy to hear it, but as those are the only reasons I've seen, my opinion stands. Shittastic wagon.

Other than rhetoric. Easy thing to spout off as if it's meaningless, but let's examine that. What would you consider a rhetoric-less vote explanation at this point?

VOTE: chess

[zoraster]

post 32 is not in english.

@ Olinea: I don't agree with him, but I see where he's coming from.
Plus possible existence of a death miller/antimiller is something that should be public knowledge due to how much it screws up VCAs

Even if the first part was confusing, the second part is not, and a well-intentioned, intelligent person could have made out what I meant by it. But because I could have been clearer, I'll help you out:

You say "other than rhetoric"?! Let's examine that. What would you consider a rhetoric-less vote explanation at this point?

[zoraster]

#1:

Detonator

. Starts the game with a bomb. Each night, the player holding the bomb may pass it to a player of their choice. At any point during the daytime, the Detonator may type

Detonate

to kill the person holding the bomb.

#2:

Super Vanilla Townie

. Twice the night actions of a Vanilla Townie. trollface.jpg.

#3:

Mafia Matchmaker

. One-shot ability to pick two players and make them Lovers. Selected players are bulletproof on the night they are chosen.

During signups I changed #2 to:

Artist

- When the Artist is killed, the next night's actions must be submitted in picture form.

ITT: Olinea proves he is not the detonator...carry on.

lol.

@Xalxe you missed my submission.
@SC are you really complaining about my lack of properly typing I don't speak spanish? Really?
@ Zoraster: If you want to have a non-rvs vote out at this point have a non-rvs reason that is actually legimate. Voting for the guy because you don't like his beliefs about how mafia should be played is not a vote based on that, it's an MD thread. Go read games of his - he thuroughly opposes MC in every game i've seen him play in. Tell me how that has ANY bearing on his alignment that he disagreed with it yet again?
And as for why i'm opposing this, is because I don't 10 pages of bullshit wagon on IS and idiotic debate about something that is irrelevant.

You are out of this world. Really. Something else. Because two people voted on page 2 it means we'd have 10 pages of low-information? Really? If we're still discussing whether IS is scum on page 12, it's unlikely we're talking about the same thing.

But whatever. Fine, we'll let IS scuttle a potentially fruitful reveal for no reason than he dislikes confusion and this is kind of similar but not really to a typical mass claim.

Instead, let's talk about you. What are your suspicions and why? And be sure not to use "rhetoric" but use a "legimate" reason.

[zoraster]

VOTE: Xalxe

Xalxe is doing what I think is one of the biggest early game tells: seeming helpful without really doing much to catch scum. While I appreciate keeping track of who said what, a rolling total that gets posted every page like a vote count makes it seem like the claim is all we're doing right now. If that's all we're doing, I hate to say it, but IS is right: it bogs us down and wastes days. That was never my hope with a claim. It should be secondary and a side note.

Anyway, returning to the Xalxe vote. He's being active and "helpful" but not in a way designed to catch scum. For this reason, he is my primary suspect.

[zoraster]

zora, I never said NOBODY DO ANYTHING UNTIL WE HAVE CLAIMS. Then I would agree with your logic.

However, in this instance I believe your logic is faulty.

There's what you do and what you say. You don't need to say that we have to stop everything in order for your actions to commit us to doing so.

In other words, it focuses the game on it like a vote count does on lynching. It gives people an excuse to submit their roles and then basically say "I'm waiting for the claim and RVS to end."

[zoraster]

And what else do we have to focus on?

Pretty sure in my eyes the RVS is done.

What the heck ever you want to focus on. If the RVS is over, then you should have some suspicions or something. Start scum hunting.

But no. Instead your "thing" is posting about the claim. I appreciate that you have a list. I'd really like to see the list when everyone (or at least everyone who wanted to post) has posted theirs. But I'm uninterested in a continual score keeping of what people have claimed.

And THAT's what I'm talking about. You're not being that helpful, but you're trying to LOOK helpful and LOOK townie, without actually contributing or standing out. So I'm calling you on that, scum.

[zoraster]

Also, don't know if this means anything to anyone else here, but Zoraster has not been posting by picture/video since his first post. Now in one of my games, a third violation of a post-restriction meant the death of a townie, so I find it interesting that chesskid died after the third post Zoraster made that seemed to break a post-restriction.

It's not a post restriction. It's just something I'm doing. I mentioned this before the game started. I'll probably post a video on Monday, but I (a) don't want to make everyone watch a youtube video every post and (b) want to have some stuff to talk about before actually posting one.

[zoraster]

I didn't realize we were claiming at L-7 now.

[zoraster]

VOTE: Olinea

Detonated and was obviously super itchy to give his fake claim at L-7.

Xalxe is scum number 2. If Olinea is somehow town, Xalxe was distancing himself from a bad lynch. If Olinea is scum, he's protecting. I don't see a town reason to act as Xalxe is right now.

[zoraster]

Zoraster is also scummy, Im not liking his attack on Xalxe for helping on claiming logistics, specially when he is also pro-claiming. I just dont get it. Question for him, are you always that agressive with something you support?

Was this a question for me? I don't really know if I'm "always" that aggressive or not. I tend to be aggressive when I think I've found scum, as I think I've done here. I may have supported the claim, but this is mafia. Why would that mean I have to let scummy behavior slide just because he's supporting the same thing?

Let's be clear: I wasn't voting him because he was for claiming. I was voting him because of the way he was acting, which was scummy.

[zoraster]

what would have been the townie acting regarding massclaim logistics?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGiXjijqEJE

Highlights:
Town action = claim, post why it's a good idea, move on.
Olinea = Not much to be said, but his actions aren't town
Xalxe = Reiterating he's either protecting or distancing from a mislynch.

[zoraster]

PS. Did I pronounce ANY of the names (tajo, xalxe, and olinea) correctly?

[zoraster]

hmm kind of forgot we could confirm at least part of his role with Furcolow. (as an aside, the mods could have given him a functional fake claim, but it seems unlikely).

Anyway I return to my regularly scheduled lynching:

VOTE: Xalxe

[zoraster]

@IS: "If it isn't Oli, then who is it?". I don't know. I don't see that there's any way of telling at the moment. The

only

thing we can be sure of is that it

isn't

Oli. You are placing a ridiculous burden of proof on people who disagree with your position, which just doesn't make sense.

@zoraster: a functional fake claim would not be backed up by tajo, as well as risking a counterclaim from whoever submitted the role.

Well, I don't want to get to side-tracked, but it seems to me that'd be exactly the case. A functional fake claim would almost have to be something that was submitted by someone else but didn't have a large amount of power yet did work.

[zoraster]

what would have been the townie acting regarding massclaim logistics?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGiXjijqEJE

Highlights:
Town action = claim, post why it's a good idea, move on.
Olinea = Not much to be said, but his actions aren't town
Xalxe = Reiterating he's either protecting or distancing from a mislynch.

first, i admit this video stuff is pretty cool, might try it sometime in the game

regarding Xalxe, it actually feels like Xalxe was sincerely helping but I also can also see your point after a quick iso. I must add that his reactions to the wagon forming look townie to me, his convo with zajnet also looks scumhunting townie to me, do you think otherwsie?

now, i think you are actually kinda smart to buy the olinea is the bomb detonator stuff, do you agree with my reasoning of him not being the detonator?

quick question, it was a one-take video?

Sorry, missed this. Let's see...

I kind of agree his reaction to the wagon haven't been particularly scummy, but I think he may be of the "ignore it and it'll go away" variety (he's barely acknowledged it), so null tell on that one. The interaction with zajnet you found town? How so? It sounds like he's skeptical, but he doesn't bother actually put any emphasis on that, so I don't view that as a town's actions.

Yeah. I think that's the most likely situation. That doesn't mean he's not scum, but it seems more likely to me that he's not the detonator than he's the detonator and he has a functional fake claim. As such, the wagon really loses its juice as the only thing that remains to make him scummy is the fact he jumped to claim at such an early state, like he was really eager to claim.

Yeah, it was a one take video. I wrote down a few notes I referred to and I kinda half practiced beforehand so I didn't extend the video by stuttering too much (you can see my notes below):

[zoraster]

about to head to bed, but i'm glad i convinced someone to have some fun with it. For what it's worth, I tried hard to make sure any video post I make is between 1-3 minutes long since I think longer than that and people's attention wanders.

[zoraster]

@Ender

I don't mind that someone wants to use my youtube posts against me. In a way, that's exactly why I'm posting it. If you aren't able to use the youtube posts against me then the reverse is that it's hard to use it to confirm me as town.

But I think talking about my ums and errs is really just lazy. If I were scum, I'd be unlikely to have a youtube video that is entirely tainted with my scuminess because I'm probably not always lying. A better way to do it is to point out key areas where I DID say uhm or err and why that was different and why that made me nervous.

For example, if I were trying to find something scummy in my video post, I might go to 1:18 in the video where I'm talking about Olinea and I say, "seems scummy to me" but as I say it I quickly look down and up and trail off.

Why did you wait to vote?

Fair question. I was on my phone at the time of the first post and I make it a habit of never voting or posting much from there because I often end up more scatterbrained than normal and it's harder to look at the big picture.

IS is town, guys. I think anyone on that wagon is either (a) trying to look townie by taking an easy wagon or (b) thinks that being wrong about something and being scum is the same thing.

Anyway, I think it's time to do a closer read of dana...

[zoraster]

Mod: Can we a vote count, a prod on Sevei, and if you think it's time, a replacement for ribwich and Thingyman?

[quote="Nocmen]I'm curious though why zora has made such a big deal about possible scumtells in the video, seems too WIFOM for my liking.[/quote]

Mostly an academic interest in the subject. I'm not trying to WIFOM (I just verbed that noun, y'all), just trying to get people talking about the videos in a productive way if they're going to. Anyway, telling me not to say uhm and err is not going to happen. Although I'm reasonably talented at public speaking, I definitely will not be perfectly polished in an unscripted segment. But mostly I'm curious about it myself, and I watched that video a few times over thinking to myself, "if i were a third party, what would be scummy? what town?" I guess I had to share it

I disagree with zoraster and DN about IS. I think the ways he's pushing finding the detonator to the exclusion of all else looks like an easy way to avoid actually scumhunting, which is a nice easy position for scum.

I don't think so. We've got time (over two weeks), and finding the detonator is probably a town positive thing, though I'm pretty convinced at this point the detonator was changed to PMing. I doubt IS-scum would search in this manner, but those with experience with him are welcome to tell me otherwise.

[zoraster]

I'm pretty convinced at this point the detonator was changed to PMing

I think that the mods explicitly said that that can't happen.

Where?

[zoraster]

ah. they responded in the message.

Fair enough.

[zoraster]

Okay. So my only hesitation I have with the detonator theory, which (at least from my perspective) would essentially leave dana as the prime suspect, is that it says each night the detonator can pass the bomb to someone else. As this was a day start (with no night 0 to my knowledge), the detonator wouldn't have had a chance to do that yet.

[zoraster]

yeah, it actually seems like a fair question to me.

[zoraster]

zoraster
I don't agree with your reads on me and Olinea. So, sorry, but I'm at odds with you here; in addition, you've gotten choppy as of late in your posts.

zoraster's Question: Would you please stop posting videos? They're a pain. Pics are fine.

First, no I will not.

Second, this post is so scummy! "So sorry I'm at odds with you here" what? It would be awfully weird if I expected him to agree with my scum read on him. So why bother posting this in the first place, especially if he's just going to wuss out and say "oh, well i don't agree with you here."

Let's make that clearer:

Xalxe is scum.

Now it is time to vote for Xalxe, everyone.

[zoraster]

Plum is town.

[zoraster]

Jeez. Get back on point, guys.

Olinea:

take a stand. Xalxe - scum or not? Why?

Tasky

: In a single post you FoSed THREE different people. Putting aside how effective that is at drawing our attention to potential scum, why haven't you, with that many suspects, voted ANY of them? Instead you keep on blathering about Olinea in a way that is, frankly, too long; did not read. (or, to be more accurate: r;ego [read; eyes glazed over]).

FoS: Tasky

[zoraster]

@ zoraster: are you just doing it for fun?

Sorry, can you clarify what you're referring to?

[zoraster]

Mod: Can We get a vote count?

[zoraster]

I think I'd push Xalxe, but as I'm about to go V/LA for a few days, I don't feel like voting him right now would be a wise idea.

Mod: I am V/LA from now until March 5th

[zoraster]

Okay. Back from vacation, and time to catch up... will have a post today or tomorrow morning (my time).

[zoraster]

Okay. Done catching up, sorry for my absence. DeathNote and Xalxe are both VERY good lynches. In fact, it's rare that I think the two leading possibilities are both so scummy.

On the one hand you have DeathNote who seems uninterested in doing anything productive with his time, choosing to pick out a few points against him, give a little bit of an answer and move on.

Xalxe is an entirely different flavor of scum. I outlined my early game reasoning for Xalxe-scum, but I want to highlight something that really bothered me:

[quote=Xalxe]Oh, if I thought a lyncher role was likely, IS would be my lyncher fo'sho. As it is, this blatant tunneling is annoying and anti-town.[/quote]

This seems a desperate ploy to OMGUS without actually arguing IS is scum. It's ridiculously scummy. As I mentioned, it's not often that I just can't go wrong with a choice between two wagons, but Xalxe is the marginally scummier:

VOTE: Xalxe

[zoraster]

damn quote tags. Why do some things require " marks and others don't? Sigh. Here, EBWOP:

Oh, if I thought a lyncher role was likely, IS would be my lyncher fo'sho. As it is, this blatant tunneling is annoying and anti-town.

[zoraster]

what do you mean you had to assume you got your own role?

[zoraster]

are you trying to say you submitted a vanilla townie role? Otherwise I don't understand what "got my own role" means.

[zoraster]

VOTE: DeathNote

[zoraster]

jester or not, can't afford to leave him alive.

[zoraster]

prod received. posting tomorrow

[zoraster]

With no Zoraster, we cant get any more info on what you do, yet my initial suspicion when you claimed is coming true.

So sorry for this game. bleh. Anyway:

So for this time traveling killer, basically what happens is you select someone to kill and you go back 2 days. That person dies and any night actions they made from the past two days is canceled out. For example, if on D5 you time travel kill someone who killed Person X on D4, Person X will suddenly be alive.

[zoraster]

I'm not being an ass, I didn't realize that was the most pressing thing at the moment. Let me take a look. If I don't post in within two hours on him, you can flog me or whatever.

[zoraster]

Actually, I don't need two hours. I just iso-ed Tasky, who I admit had escaped my attention all game (even when I had been into the game). Really easy lynch in my mind. Nothing, nothing, and then boom he decides to take control of a mass claim? With voting the way it is, I won't throw down my vote yet (I believe you were waiting on someone other than just me?) But I have zero qualms about a Tasky lynch... the fact Tasky disappeared after that... without even trying to defend the popcorn mass claim (if he was really just town gungho and so convinced he should do this that he needed to unilaterally start a popcorn claim, shouldn't he take IS to task [har har] for sabotaging it?) just further reinforces that view.

[zoraster]

fair enough. I know in the game I was modding Fishy had some personal stuff come up. He hasn't flaked on me in the past, so I give him the benefit of the doubt.

VOTE: Tasky

[zoraster]

oh crud. that's right. I can't vote today.

[zoraster]

i mentioned this in another thread, but V/LA until monday

[zoraster]

I'm back. Been a long weekend, but I promise I don't use V/LA as a method for lurking; I've been out of town as I mentioned elsewhere.

Anyway, I'm going to try and catch up now, but while I do I'd love to hear from you if there's something specific you need to know, etc.

[zoraster]

Okay. First things first, I'll respond to Amrun's post:

ISOs started.

First up:

zoraster:

Actually quite similar to fishy. He started off the game looking very town to me, yet hasn't been NKed. Later in the game, he's peppered us with v/las and actual unexplainable absences with very little content in between.

His only firm stances have been against Xalxe and Tasky, so it's obvious that he's not Mafia B.

However, he doesn't mention Furcolow ONCE in his entire ISO... I'm thinking it's possible he's mafia C.

Or, he could be totally disinterested town. Not sure.

However, this post stood out to me:

mostly I'm curious about it myself, and I watched that video a few times over thinking to myself, "if i were a third party, what would be scummy? what town?"

... WHAT? If I were third party?!

Maybe he's a third party killer (blast kills)?

Yes, this game got away from me. At some point after Day 1 it seemed to really drag on and I never really got involved. Unfortunate, but there we are.

As for the third party thing, that wasn't me breadcrumbing third party or something. It was a third party as in a disinterested (not uninterested as used in the quote) party. In other words, someone looking from the outside in on the video (i.e. not me).

As for Furc... I don't really know. I guess he just didn't seem to stand out to me like Xalxe did.

---
Moving on.

The pushing of Fishy is misplaced. He looks town to me. Yes, he went AWOL, but he did so across ALL of his games, and it seems highly unlikely that he was doing so for strategic reasons. If you take that away, I think you're left without much. I think ThAd and IS come across smelling not-so-fresh, but frankly are nothing compared to the stink emanating off of WhenInRome.

Take the following:

Well, at first his points seemed reasonable, but when I thought more about it I realized the flaws in his points.

This seems pretty classic scum. It's noncommittal to the extreme. He doesn't mention whether he really thinks this makes Fishy scum, and he doesn't really go into depth on what he thinks those flaws are. It's scumhunting for those who don't feel obliged to scum hunt. Lest you believe this is a one time occurence, I encourage everyone to ISO WiR and go back. At first his posts might look robust, but they have the same critical failure to actually try and say "X is scum" without having quite a bit of backup behind him.

[zoraster]

I do agree that WiR is probable scum.

But you do realize that we're almost definitely at 3:3 right now ... or even 2:2:1.

So going after the basic scummiest may not be the best strategy.



Do you think there is a mafia A or not? Very important that you take a stance on this.

Quick phone post: my guess is there is no mafia a.

[zoraster]

Fishy, I was counting all mafia as one unit in those little "scenarios." So, yes, you're right, but the spread of mafia didn't matter so much in the point I was making of town:mafia ratio.


zoraster, whose lynch are you willing to support today? Just WiR?

WiR, IS, ThAd in that order.

Take a look at what IS just posted. Does this seem honest? It's attacking me, so maybe my view is colored on the subject, but that attack seems entirely disjointed:

1. I didn't allude that there is no Mafia A. I said I didn't think there was. I said exactly what I meant, so using a term that makes it sound like I'm merely trying to vaguely suggest something is untrue.

2. He says I'm "doing my best to avoid dealing with Fishy." I don't think this is remotely true. I said I think Fishy is town, and I think the attacks on him are misguided at best. That's not not dealing with him. That's dealing with him and coming to a different conclusion than you have. I think we've all played enough Mafia to know that having someone disagree with you doesn't make the other person scum.

I have to step out of the house now (fiancee is waiting on me), but I'll continue this when I get back. IS is not making sense, and it needs to be called out.

[zoraster]

Step 1: We're in a mexican standoff because everyone suspects everyone else
Step 2: Go after Zoraster for not suspecting everyone else.

Do you see how ridiculously inconsistent that is, IS?

I think a member of a Mafia is more likely to feel like they're in a mexican standoff anyway. That's not town speak, really. If you're Mafia B, for example, you probably feel like everyone is against you because everyone probably IS against you. Whereas if you were really town, you'd be looking for your allies, not just your enemies. And that's what I'm doing.

[zoraster]

But your allies you believe in unequivocally, zoraster?

VOTE: WhenInRome

Since we can all agree on this.

For today or until I get a different read.

[zoraster]

not I.

VOTE: WhenInRome

[zoraster]

hahahaha so an all scum end game. And we managed to lynch the one town player

[zoraster]

Good job, guys. LLama/Sera, don't forget to submit the game for ranking!

[zoraster]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 23&start=0