The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Profane Confusion]

Hi all. I'm Incog, and I'm replacing in with smargaret. I was thinking of using the name Margarito, but I figured mith would probably take forever to approve it, so we're just gonna be using this old alt of mine instead.

I see the deadline's tomorrow. I've read up to like page 10 already, so I'll continue reading and we'll try to post some thoughts ASAP.

[Profane Confusion]

Hey Yos. Yeah it's been awhile since I've played anything outside of Marathon Games but it's nice to be back.

[Profane Confusion]

Headache. I'm done reading. I haven't conferred with smargaret at all yet. For any of you who know me, I tend to bank more on my town reads than scum ones particularly when playing in a game that has good scum. With this player list and list of hydras, my guess is we probably have some decent to good scum in this game. So here are my town reads right now:

- YFC - probtown
- DaSpot - probtown
- Final Destination - probtown
- Unicorn Brethren - uhm. town?

- Big issue: Gummybear. I wasn't liking them at all but then they went and did that whole giving up thing while at L-1 and it began to make me think they're town.

The rest of you are kind of all jumbled in there. I wish I had more time to figure you out in real time because you're some wordy mofos.

@Yos:

I've got a bit of a conflicting read with FES. Can you tell me why you think they're obvtown?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

I guess I could see that wrt to FES. My issue with them though is I never really got the impression that FES has pushed with enough gusto for his top suspect to be lynched. If he's town, I guess I could see his reasoning for not pushing hard enough being apathy but if he's scum, I could see a large benefit towards parking a vote and just leaving it there without asking people to join in on the crusade. The reason I'm going back and forth on them though is I kinda liked the WIFOM-y Pathetric NK speculation that Shanba wrote at some point in the thread; it seemed like something that would come more from a town POV than a scum one. But I'm eh on them.

-~-~-~-~-~

As for Daspot, I've just picked up a general sloppy vibe from his play that seems more consistent with the type of play I'd expect to come from town than scum. I know you've been arguing that his play has seemed scummy, but I got the exact opposite vibe from it. Ether's post #29 felt so on the money that I found myself nodding along to it completely. If you want a specific post though, I thought post #355 that Daspot wrote during Twilight was pretty townish. I think a scum-Daspot would have just lurked the rest of the Day out and waited until the mod locked the thread instead of making that comment. It's a very small-ish reason but those are the kinds of things I tend to look for when figuring people out. His play outside of that hasn't made me think scum either.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

So I disagree with Incognito on Daspot's towniness, but I do agree that FES warrants a closer look. Until we can discuss our reads, and so that we actually get something in before deadline,

UNVOTE:
vote]FES[/vote]

I have Balam as tentative scum with a couple of stronger reads that are dependent on a Daspot scumflip, if that makes any sense. I need to talk with Incog to sort out stuff about Gummybear and see if we can agree on Daspot.

[Profane Confusion]

VOTE: FES
Tagfail.

[Profane Confusion]

Checking in from my phone.

[Profane Confusion]

Didn't mean to submit that just yet. ah well. i'm fine with our vote being on fes right now since i do currently think they stand a stronger chance of being scum than gummybear or daspot. i don't really like greymarble's posting over this page - i was getting the impression that they were beginning to lean town on gummybear but then they switched that up and came up with this strange bussing theory related to lordfonzi. greymarble: how much sense would it make for a hypo fonzi-scum to bus his hypothetical buddy at this point when other viable wagons have been out there? if you think fonzi is scum shouldn't their vote make you cold about the gummy-wagon? my phone won't let me space out paragraphs so i may have to write up a few separate posts.

[Profane Confusion]

I'm still thinking town wrt gummybear. the willingness to self-hammer is making me feel more sure about that. gummybear: you need to place your vote somewhere. self-hammering is stupid when there's certainly viable wagons that are still available before deadline. Finally, unicornbrethren why have you waited so long to put that vote down? why aren't you doing anything in general? - incog

[Profane Confusion]

If this is what this game's gonna be like I want my money back.

greymarble: how much sense would it make for a hypo fonzi-scum to bus his hypothetical buddy at this point when other viable wagons have been out there? if you think fonzi is scum shouldn't their vote make you cold about the gummy-wagon?

I'm assuming you're Greymarble, GreyICE?

[Profane Confusion]

vote: Frogito Ergo Sum

I'd like to see a claim. Not really sure how FES escaped without providing one Yesterday. I'd also like to use this Day to get better reads on my jumbled up peeps.

Lord Fonzi, you used 3 twice. Also could you elaborate more on why FD looks worse after Yesterday? I'm not really seeing that right now. Finally, 6 seems fairly obvious, but I guess we can wait for the fairly mute Unicorn to answer on their own behalf.

[Profane Confusion]

And that was me, Incog, btw.

[Profane Confusion]

Unicorns, did you guys ever confirm your complete identities? Also, who is Copper made up of?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Incog, do you think that FES refusing to claim at lynch -1 was a scumtell?

No, I just found the vote movement from an FES wagon to what we now know to be a GummyBear-town wagon really really strange. It's the kind of vote movement I might expect to happen after a player claims a PR or does something obviously townish but FES didn't claim anything at all and certainly didn't look obviously townish. During the remainder of the Day, FES only seemed to respond to stuff directed at them and completely lacked any amount of proactiveness.

[Profane Confusion]

Why are you this claim-focused?

'cause my vote places you at L-2, I think you stand the strongest chance of being scum, and I suspected that you'd likely reach L-1 soon based on the people who voted you Yesterday.

What made you hammer Gummybear? I don't really recall you commenting much on that wagon as it was forming, and I don't see you mention anywhere that you found them scummy either.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Basically, since smargaret and I just replaced in last week, we've set forth a bunch of goals for ourselves for Today. Those include trying to figure out whether or not our scum read of you is accurate (imo that includes getting a claim from you since you're undoubtedly going to be on the chopping block anyway), trying to develop reads on our non-reads like Balam, the Unicorns, Copper, and for me specifically, Lord Fonzi (smargaret seems to be leaning town on LF currently), and trying to lynch scum. Hopefully that explains my intentions for asking for a claim more clearly.

Shanba and I both felt the wagon was worthwhile due to the way they responded to the wagon and the deadline was ~7 minutes away.

See to me this seems to indicate that you were observing the thread for awhile on Saturday but choosing not to say anything. I mean I doubt you just randomly popped up right on time just minutes before deadline for the hammer. If you're town, I don't really get why you wouldn't give input on the things that were happening while Gummy was at L-1. I could see why scum might do that though.

[Profane Confusion]

So people UB thinks are scum/worth lynching, according to today's posts only:

YFC
Lord Fonzi
Copper
FD
FES

UB, are your heads communicating at all? Did you realize you have more scum reads than non-scum reads? Do you even have town reads at this point?

[Profane Confusion]

That was smargaret, btw.

Hmm. If he's scum, though, then wouldn't doing nothing and allowing a no-lynch, and letting Gummy be lynched the next day instead, have been more in his best interest?

Not necessarily. I know the times that I've been scum, I've always have much rather had the sure mislynch the Day it's available than wait another Day for a time that I wouldn't even be guaranteed to have that same mislynch opportunity again. Towns can be fickle sometimes.

@MOD:

Well, for instance, you haven't edited Profane Confusion as a replacement yet.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

We were around at the time, but we weren't particularly motivated to get a proper post up.

But motivated enough to hammer? lol.

Did you notice that Gummybear offered to hammer itself?

Yes, and I had mentioned a couple of times that I thought Gummy's whole reaction to being at L-1 looked town. I'm assuming you're bringing this up in this case though because you're trying to say a you-scum could have just sat back and waited for the self-hammer. But like you said before the deadline was like 7 mins away and Gummy was nowhere in sight - kinda hard to self-hammer in that case, so I think what I said there still has some validity to it.

-~-~-~-~

Ftr, I didn't think Grey looked town, so I was surprised by the NK. I think Yos brings up a fair point though; it doesn't really make sense to use NK as a reason for a vote against Yos now but to completely ignore it in the case of Pathetric.

We need posts from our mutes. I've seen Fate, AGM, and Equinox around the site, so I don't understand why they're not posting yet.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Major FoS: Balam

I don't like that post one bit. AGar, have you always been a man of policy? I don't recall you pushing that kind of stuff in NG 1020 where you were town, and we had a player who you could have easily pushed the same kind of policy on too. Plus, why do this now rather than a previous Day?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

That's my swag. If you don't like it too bad.

I'm not putting a real vote down because I like my vote where it is right now.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

UB: Why are you ignoring my 934? Also, I can't say for sure since it was Incog who posted the FOS, but if you look at the vote, that was bolded and enlarged, too. You're reaching.

Balam: Why are you so sure tomorrow's lylo and not today?

-smarg

[Profane Confusion]

That's the list of people UB suspects, not the people who suspect UB.

[Profane Confusion]

-smarg

[Profane Confusion]

I may be going overboard with this whole FES hammer thing. But the fact of the matter is, I'm looking back on FES's iso and I really don't think they're scum-hunting. They're just popping into the thread in full-fledged defense mode. I swear their most recent scum list looks like they just took a bunch of names and threw them into a hat. I haven't gotten an air of curiosity about people's alignments from any of their posts.

Final Destination is not the play Today. I think they look town.

Yos, what's confusing you so much? Do you still have a town read on FES?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

So people UB thinks are scum/worth lynching, according to today's posts only:

YFC
Lord Fonzi
Copper
FD
FES

UB, are your heads communicating at all? Did you realize you have more scum reads than non-scum reads? Do you even have town reads at this point?

UB, please respond to this.

-smarg

[Profane Confusion]

I've caught up over the last few posts.

Daspot/Unicorns: I'm thinking at least two of {Lord Fonzi, Yos, FES} is likely scum, but I really don't think all three are. From what I've seen during my time here on MS, it's extremely rare for scum to vote back to back to back like the three of them have done with Final Destination. I don't think I've seen that kind of thing happen once. So while it's certainly possible, I don't think it's likely.

The more I see from Unicorn Brethren the more I'm thinking town. Scum just don't push the kind of logic the Unicorns have been pushing especially Today. I don't think my other head smargaret is feeling it right now as much as I am but yeah, that's where I stand.

-~-~-~-~-~

Fair enough, AGar, on the policy stuff.

We disagree. What is your motivation for their belief to be town?

There was this expression I learned awhile back from Booker in my second Newbie game: "The cut of yer jib." It had something to do with a player's personality in the game. Final Destination hasn't seemed afraid of conflict (a trait that I more often associate with town than scum) and they've been taking an active role in scum-hunting. So I'm thinking town. smargaret pointed out some post of FD's in our quicktopic that made her think town and I agreed, but I'm too lazy/tired to look at it right now. Maybe later.


Separate post to follow.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Frosty, dear, I *do* want Frogito lynched. I think what I said in my opening post for Today is really getting obfuscated. After the Gummy-hammer by FES, I felt even more confident in my read of FES because I really couldn't see how anyone with enough experience would actually hammer Gummy after the series of posts they posted at L-1. So that's where my "Contrast" post comes in. The whole "I want a claim" thing was me thinking most others would easily see FES as scum too especially when they started racking up the votes from the get-go. Instead, some people are still claiming that they don't completely see it which baffles me.

You also have to realize that when I posted that "Compare" post of mine, I had just finished taking in like 30-something pages of thread in like 4 hours, and I felt like FES looked bad here. Did I feel amazingly confident? Nah. I'm a real-time player who needs to take posts in during real time in order to get more accurate reads. Should I be looking at what made that FES wagon dissipate? Probably, but I don't think that's as important right now since that's more of an associative tell anyway.

Anyway, despite the fact that every time Spot posts it makes me want to him to die, I'm less confident about him at this point. I really want to lynch FD today, and I've got some suspicions about Profane Confusion as well.

We've played in at least 5 forum games together on opposite sides and same sides, numerous face-to-face games together, and you really can't see I'm town here? Yos, are you scum?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Oh Daspot. Daspot Daspot Daspot. Having good logic does not always mean a player is town.

I agree with LF's 381 since I can't point to anything specifically pro-town that Copper has done all game either. So I'm concerned with how people are just ticking them off without really looking into them.

For example, Copper, I don't really get your vote and case. It seems to amount to "Balam has been shady around FES wagons. Therefore Balam is either scum with FES or Balam is scum while FES is town and they're waiting for the FES flip to unleash some fury." The thing that puzzles me is I always got the impression that you thought FES was scum, so I don't get why you'd now choose to vote off-wagon for this kind of reason. Break it down for me?

Are you reading our posts at all?

Yeah.

We don't see anything particularly pro-town in Gummybear's L-1 posting. Do elaborate. Furthermore, we'd like a response to our last question on this subject: wouldn't a failure to self-hammer on their part looked damning?

In response to part 1, see this post and this post both made by me.

As for the second part, I don't really know. People who genuinely thought Gummy looked like scum would have probably not listened to their excuses for not self-hammering, but I still don't think it'd be as cut and dry as them getting insta-lynched the next Day.

The whole "I want a claim" thing was me thinking most others would easily see FES as scum too especially when they started racking up the votes from the get-go.

They got lots of votes, thus they must be scum?

That's not what I was saying there, but I could see how you might have read it that way. I was saying that at D3's start, the momentum was going in your direction, and I thought whoever hadn't checked into the thread by the time I voted you would be voicing some suspicion of you too. So it seemed appropriate to me to ask for a claim.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

<<<< This is also an important post to read >>>>

Unicorns: I know that it's happened before. That's why I said I don't think it's very probable. You've succeeded at pointing out a single game in the 1000s of games in which it HASN'T happened before. Congrats.

-~-~-~-~-~

FD points out some interesting stuff in his 990. In order for FES to be scum there'd had to have been a bunch of people bussing/distancing from them because the sheer level of FES hate has been extremely high. Looking back, I think Yos might be the only hydra who hasn't voted them all game. Sadly, that's kinda creepy. I won't go as far as Fate has to go ahead and call FES town but it is something that makes you think a little.

FES, what do you think of FD's 990?

I would say that I was very suspicious of the slot you replaced into. Also, I was suspicious of Beaver being scum with either FD or with Spot, and that your behavior so far has been fairly consistent with either one of those possibilities.

I might have missed this but can you point out the posts where you mention that you were suspicious of Beaver being scum with FD or Spot?

[Profane Confusion]

- Incogkeepsforgettingo

[Profane Confusion]

This place sure is quiet. I know it's Sunday, but I'd have expected at least a post or two.

I see, Yos. You know, I decided to look into these lurker accusations that you've made towards FD since I haven't been here from the start to be able to see any kind of lurking pattern from them. After looking into it, I don't really see what it is you're talking about there. Final Destination has been posting at a rate of at least 1 ppd with maybe 2 or 3 breaks from that due to apparent V/LAs.

Would you agree or disagree that FES has probably been a worse offender of what you're accusing FD of (but yet you have them down as town)? Further, why is FD a lurker but people like Copper and Unicorn Brethren are not?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Equinox, are you around?

[Profane Confusion]

RayFrost would do just fine too (I saw you post in MD). I just wanna talk to you two.

[Profane Confusion]

What was the point of that, FES?

[Profane Confusion]

With respect to going for the no-lynch being superior for scum, I had said before to Yos that I really don't think it is. I might be alone on this, but during the times I've been scum, I've MUCH rather have seen a mislynch go through than seen a no lynch happen. No lynches just make the game a longer one for scum, and it becomes incredibly more difficult to keep up an act when you're going for longer and longer time periods. I guess that's also why I've found it much more difficult to be scum in Large Games and partly the reason why I avoid Larges like the plague. Idk if a you-scum would be the same way; I guess I'd have to look into the meta.

I hadn't noticed that FD held a similar position at the end of Day 1; thanks for pointing that out. I still think there's very little scum motivation for FD to point out something like that right now unless your hydra and FD are scum together. I also don't completely see why Fate loses town cred for pointing out that Ether line; it's something that's made me think a little too because I know Ether's usually pretty damn good at getting reads off of people she's played with more than once. If she was hesitating about Yos then that's probably not that good of a sign for Yos.

P.S. re: lurking, I think FD and I have both suffered activitywise from wanting to synch up with our partners. Independent heads are more than twice as active as one combo.

Agreed. This is why smargaret and I have kinda independently agreed to just post when we want to w/o necessarily talking it over first. I just wanna know why Yos has some sort of a double standard going on though. It seems unnatural.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Hey, you two! What's going through your collective minds right now? What are your thoughts here about Mr. Yosarian2?

[Profane Confusion]

In case you're wondering why I wanna talk to you two specifically, it's 'cause I'm finding Equinox kinda hard to read this game. Chatting nice and concisely might ease this up for me a bit.

[Profane Confusion]

Because (AND DON'T TAKE OFFENSE TO THIS) I think Equinox might be better scum than you. So if your slot's scum, it could be easier to get a scum read of you than your Incognito partner.

Why would revealing info about connections influence scum interactions out of curiosity?

[Profane Confusion]

Yes. But I assumed by the sheer volume of posts made by you, Equinox, that you for whatever reason took the dominant role in that hydra. Plus I saw your name on the Online List but I didn't see Frosty's. I'm guessing he stays hidden, which is sad. Then when I saw RayFrost post in MD I was all like "OOH lemme con RayFrost to post in here!"

[Profane Confusion]

Why wouldn't it? We reveal that our list is x (town) / z (scum) / d (scum), b (town) / h (town) / a (scum), or u (town) / a / h, why would the scum ignore it? They could easily use this to their advantage: kill x over the night / push for the lynch of a or h, use the fact we feel there's connections to pseudo clear themselves in our eyes / get mislynches. Scum

not

taking advantage of the information seems more unusual to me than scum taking the advantage.

True, but I don't really see that as a problem when you've got a decent town to back you up who's able to look into connections like that. Yes, there are times to withhold information, but I don't really see why a (potential) Day before LyLo would be a good time to do so.

[Profane Confusion]

That makes some sense.

I've got one last question and then I gotta stop procrastinating: what's your read on Copper?

[Profane Confusion]

Oh. So you've played with Copper before? Have you seen them play as scum and town or just one alignment?

I'm procrastinating from taking notes for this allergic rhinitis module that's a self-taught type of thing.

- Incog (over and out)

[Profane Confusion]

Back again.

The issue is... I've yet to play or read a game where I think/thought copper

wasn't

town. So yeah. The style of heir posting is kinda the blank walled poker face read that I can't really get through, and that makes

me mistrust my town read

even though it's a

rather solid town read.

So when I say games *I've* read/played, I mean games read/played by equinox. Though she isn't using meta in her read, she has told the hydra about the little meta she has.

Why did you lie? How could your read of Copper be "solid town" if you mistrust it?

[Profane Confusion]

The lie was the part where you said that you (RayFrost) were the one who played with Copper when it was Equinox who had done so. The second question was slightly unrelated to the lie.

- The Inkster

[Profane Confusion]

Mini 934 - Vanilla Town

Found.

Apologies, Balam, I guess I did misread that. It was cool seeing your reaction though.

-~-~-~-~

From my perspective, the wagon on Yos looks fairly town and therefore tempting. I feel like I'm missing something major though like oh, idk, some kind of read on Copper and Lord Fonzi, perhaps? There's also that issue of me trying to figure out why exactly I thought Yos looked town when I replaced in. I need to check back with smargaret because she thought he was town too initially, but we've both been getting a sinking feeling about Yos more recently.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Balam: What made Yos suddenly jump to a scum spot on your list?

I can't help but feel that this accusation is an unconscious admittance from Fozni and Confusion that FES is townie. After our push on his wagon yesterday, it's certainly true that we haven't been as pro-town as those voting for scum. It feels as though we're being implicated for our efforts in securing a mislynch, before that mislynch is secured.

This is quite possibly one of the weirdest things I've ever read. How does what I said in that post you quoted translate into an admittance that FES is town? What I said there about you was completely unrelated to FES; part of what RayFrost said in his 1034 summarized exactly what I've been thinking about your slot in that I too feel like "your style of play is kinda the blank-walled poker face read that I can't get through." The fact that you post so infrequently only magnifies that thought since I can't get a feel for you in real time. You might as well be ELIZA 2.0.

Because of all that, you have done nothing that even remotely makes me think you're pro-town. You seem to be implying that the recipe for you to be pro-town is the following:

1)

Be logical.

2)

Vote correctly.

3)

Ask questions and ish.

4)

Stir and fry.

But for me, when I think of someone being pro-town I know that it's a feeling that I get from their posts that's very difficult to fake. And you my friend are the most neutral read I've had in a long time. Even after you explained the logic behind your Balam vote, I still think you're as neutral as a 7.0 on the pH scale.

-~-~-~-~

@Daspot:

No, I can't switch over to Yos since I don't want an L-1 on anyone just yet. Is my vote doing anything special on FES right now? Probably not, but I'll leave it there anyway.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

No.

[Profane Confusion]

And that message was approved by Bill Clinton who's far superior to George Bush.

[Profane Confusion]

ReaperCharlie, you need to chill. I don't care how right you think you are or how good you think you are or how smart you think you are, if you're going to be intentionally insulting everyone and anyone in your path you're going to find yourself having very little influence over anyone in this thread or anyone in the future.

This is still just a GAME and right now you're making it disgustingly unbearable to read through.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

FES, I've pretty much dropped that point for the most part already. I only keep bringing it up because you keep asking about it some more. There are other reasons I find you scummy. The hammer was just icing on the cake.

Yos:

That being said, I'm not as convinced as I was for most of yesterday of FD being scum. Feels like if he was scum, he'd have been more likely to use the fact that me and Cayke's reads were somewhat different at the end of the day yesterday as a BS reason to continue to attack us, instead of writing us off as probably town because of it.

You said this way back at the start of Day 2. What do you think about it now?

unvote, vote: Copper

As tempting as the Yos wagon looks, I've already said I don't want him or anyone at L-1 just yet and I've always been a firm believer that vote movement and multiple wagons are critical to helping out scum. Sorry, smarg. It needs to be done. If there's one thing I've learned from playing Mafia that I always end up downplaying it's that my neutral reads more often than not turn out to be the scum. I'll be damned if I let this hydra just skate the way they have all game.

[Profane Confusion]

- 'nito.

[Profane Confusion]

I don't really see that as a scum slip, tbh. There are things about Copper that I don't like but that's not really one of them.

[Profane Confusion]

Cross-posted with Yos and reading.

[Profane Confusion]

I'd also say the same about Incognito, so his suspicion on me feels wrong. I'm not clear why he suspects me, exactally; it bugs me that at first he called me town, and then when I casually mentioned I suspect him, he started saying he suspects me, but never explained it. It feels like he's trying to position himself so he can justify getting on a wagon on me later, while trying to avoid a fight with me right now; he keeps doing these "well, i suspect Yos, for vague reasons, but I'm going to vote for person X instead" things that are giving me bad vibes.

I'm still going back and forth on you actually. The biggest things that I haven't liked about you are the following:

1) I think your defense of Frogito Ergo Sum seems really unnatural. It's weird to me how you've accused Final Destination of lurking and looking scummy for it but have ignored people who I'd consider to be either worse offenders of lurking or on par with FD - namely FES, Copper, Unicorn Brethren. With FES in particular, you've had this unwavering town read of them for reasons that I can't completely comprehend.

2) Your suspicions are almost exactly opposite of mine. This is one of the points that makes me go back and forth on you though actually since I've definitely seen this kind of thing from you before in at least one other game we've played in together. So I'm realizing it's not really a valid scum-tell against you.

3) When you voted Final Destination Today, it made me think of how you normally vote people in Face-to-Face Mafia when you're scum while sitting on the couch or something. I don't really know how to describe it lol.



What this game is teaching me though is that I really don't know how to read you in forum Mafia as well as I thought I did. In the past games that we've played together on MS, I've read you correctly only because you've said certain "town-slips" that were so obviously town that I said to myself "awesome. Yos is on my side here." Sadly, I haven't seen that in this game.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

That's actually a pretty decent explanation. Urgh.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Copper feels like the skating scum that everyone just kinda ignores who normally makes it to endgame with absolutely no ties to anyone leaving the townie left making the decision wishing they actually used their time wisely to figure them out before it was too late. I'm here to squash that right here right now. If I need to make a case to show why they deserve votes, I will.

It'd be nice to get some kind of confirmation that MoS and Primate are actually looking at the game? Just because the account isn't activated doesn't mean they can't just post separately on their own accounts for the time being like TheFonz and Lord Gurgi did.

And where's everyone else?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

I'm getting tired of seething with rage. Can we get somewhere with this game?

See, this is the kind of thing that I really hate. It's like the people in this game just lock a vote down and go into shut-down mode where they feel like nothing else needs to be commented on and that a lynch should just happen already. You have nothing new to comment on over the last page or so?

[Profane Confusion]

I'll remember more consistently eventually.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Fate does need to get back in here and do stuff. I still think they're very likely town - this latest bit of inactivity does illustrate a bit better what you guys were talking about though.

-~-~-~-~-~

My problems with Copper were pretty well summarized by Lord Fonzi in their 1118 there, but I'll add another point or two: I just get the feeling that Copper has been playing a very SAFE game. They've taken positions that seem reasonable on the surface, but I haven't gotten the feeling that they've really stuck their necks out to show that they actually BELIEVE in those positions that they've been talking about. For example, they keep calling different people town and the like, but they don't seem to assert that position by going out of their way to defend people that they claim to see as town or stuff like that like the way I'd expect town to. Every time they post, I feel like I'm reading the post of a politician rather than someone who's genuinely trying to find and lynch scum.

P.S. looking back, this post by Greymarble about Copper was so full of win that it needs to be brought to people's attention again:

Now this table is kind of interesting. It's the people you like to have back and forths with. Not mention in passing, but actually question and answer, scumhunt, work with.

You're a very questioning hydra. Yet you are a very SPECIFIC one.

Can we assume you question your top scum suspects? No. You've expressed suspicion of GummyBear, but your interactions are minimal. Is this for lurking? No. FES receives much more attention. Is it for frequent posting? No. I post much less frequently than Balam, but you barely talk to Balam at all. You've spent as much time questioning YFC as you have super-flake.

I'll be honest. This chart is weirding me out. You have people you like to talk to and people you don't like to talk to. It feels very, very agenda driven.

The chart he's talking about here is an interactions chart (click on the link to see it in detail). Greymarble made a really astute observation there, and I really think he was onto something.

I think we should be lynching Copper Today.

[Profane Confusion]

Also, I'm beginning to narrow things down to PoE and here are the way my reads are beginning to shape up:

TOWN

Mastermate formerly Unicorn Brethren (I've said reasons for this a bunch of times Today).
Lord Fonzi (posting Today has been solid).
Daspot (again already mentioned before)
Final Destination (mentioned before)

Yos's explanation about FES seemed so solid that I'm even beginning to see reasons for why THEY may be town too.

For me that leaves two red flags:

Copper
Balam

Balam showed the courage of their convictions in their Copper vote in a position that looked like it might make a Copper lynch an actually realistic prospect, which allayed my concern that Copper and Balam were distancing each other, while Balam softly supported a Yos lynch and Copper kept their noses clean by sticking with the bus.

Considering some of the thoughts mentioned by one of the Balamers in the MD bussing thread, I can't say this is something we should be completely believing.

[Profane Confusion]

And now I'm cross-posting with FD as we speak haha.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Hi.

[Profane Confusion]

My problem with Balam is yeah, I can see what you're saying about Equinox feeling town (I agree that her reaction to your drunk posting was solidly town), but then AGar or RayFrost start posting and I'm like uh...

Now I know how camn felt in BSG Mafia with me and Patrick.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

@PC: What say you? This latest gem entice you to the righteous wagon yet? Me, UB, and DaSpot are all on it! TO VICTORY

I just don't know. I see what you're talking about but that post made by Yos in defense of Frogito Ergo Sum looks pretty damn solid. The thinking he used to make that post just seems really town to me; he's using a lot of the same tells I tend to use when I town-hunt too, and I find that kind of thing really difficult to do during the times that I'm scum.

We have one mislynch left, that's how it usually works right?

That depends.

@Lord Fonzi's #1137 (which I think was written by The Fonz):

Unless I'm mistaken, I think you've misread what Fate has said. He's accused Copper of being Yos' buddy not yours - I don't think Fate has accused you of being scum this entire page.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Also, one more post before I have no access tomorrow during Easter. I don't know if smarg will be available to post or not.

Balam, do you think those posts you've pulled up makes Final Destination look scummy?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

I lied. I can't stop thinking about this game haha. Last one for real though.

Yos, I have a bit of an exercise for you. I want you to look at this:

This is a stupid discussion.

The following people are town so far:
Unicorns
Final Destination
DaSpot
Probably Yosarian, I guess.

Then this:

Pathetric the Vanilla Townie

has been killed.

And then think about which TWO players you've spent the most amount of time attacking all game.

And then please share your thoughts about all of that.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Yeah, I'm busy with Easter stuff tomorrow too (and pretty much since Thursday, in all honesty). I might be on a bit, but not much.

I think FD is right in their previous post; I feel like there's a lot of fluff accumulating. Mastermate's first post isn't stellar - why bother posting at all? I expect more out of a catchup post (and maybe that'll knock us off this plateau we're all stuck on).

-smarg

[Profane Confusion]

Really really sleepy but I'm back.

With as much sense and logic as Yos' defense of FES made, post 1155 stands in really stark contrast.

unvote, vote: YosFlavouredCayke

That's L-1. I'd like a claim.



P.S. Fate, you better be right. Because if Copper-scum somehow ends up wriggling away this game, I'm going to be really damn pissed.

P.P.S. I also resent your comment about me not being feared for my scum-hunting abilities. That's not true at all.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Excuse me? What, exactally, is wrong with my post 1155?

I brought up an area of the thread that I really thought might make you at LEAST pause and reconsider your thoughts about Final Destination and DaSpot, and instead of doing what I thought you'd do as town, you found even more silly reasons to suspect that slot and then you threw some more suspicions on me. I don't even get the reasons why you mentioned that stuff about Ether suspecting Beaver - of course I know that Pathetric dying makes me look bad, but I don't mind thinking about other reasons why Pathetric might have died because I'm town and I know Pathetric didn't die because of me.

You've been way too consistent and unwavering in this game. Yes, you brought up decent reasons for why FES might be town, but you haven't done that with anyone else - you've just been beating your drum all game about how DaSpot and FD need to be lynched, FES needs to live, and you don't seem to care about much else that goes on around the game the way I think you would as town. There's this guy in Mafia Discussion who you might know who everyone agrees with and who constantly harps on about how "consistency is scum-tell." That's basically been you all game.

Now claim.

[Profane Confusion]

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

I'd really like FES to justify why they think I'm scum.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

My point is Pathetric was a town player who looked like they were going to have a lot of influence on the game if they were still alive. Ether stated with a lot of confidence that Final Destination, DaSpot, and the Unicorns were all town. It's not very often that scum go ahead and kill the people that they know they can get some support from. Despite all that, you've just ignored that evidence and have gone on voting Final Destination and DaSpot like it's nobody's business. I mean, even Frogito Ergo Sum admitted on the last page or two that Ether's comment there and subsequent death made them reconsider their thoughts about DaSpot.

Couple that with the fact that Greymarble, ANOTHER person who thought they all looked town, died last Night and... you can see where I'm going with this.

And this might be a bit of WIFOM, but do you really think that a me-scum would dig back to an area of the thread that I know would make me look bad just defend someone else? Your thinking just doesn't seem town at all for you to just throw that bit about Beaver right back in my face.

There's no way you, as town, would just ignore such a strong logical case made by strong players like Fonz and Gurgi without even considering it.

Everyone in this game is a fairly strong player, so what you're saying here is pretty irrelevant. I did consider what they said, but everything Final Destination posts just screams town to me.

And if you think I've never hesitated or changed my mind this game, again, you clearly aren't at all reading my posts.

You've been here all game and have only serious voted two people. If that's not focusing on just two people while ignoring everyone else, then I don't know what is. You only commented on Copper when asked about them otherwise you were content with allowing them to continue to skate like they have all game.

Why aren't you claiming?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Yosarian, I was talking about Ether's confident reads there. "Probably Yosarian, I guess" is far from confident.

As for Spot, when you keep saying stuff like "ALL THE SCUM ARE GROUP VOTING ME" it's hard to take what you said there about Spot very seriously.

THREE people. Why do you keep ignoring that I spent about a third of the game trying to lynch the guy who you replaced?

And that's yet another person that I know you're "wrong" about. So let's take some tabs here: I think you're wrong about FD, I think you're wrong about Spot, I know you're wrong about me, and you were also willing to hammer GummyBear-town while completely ignoring their last minute appeals. Your hands were also dirtied by Untrod Stranger. Could Yos really just be that wrong that many times or is he just scum here? I might think be willing to think the former if you were willing to show some kind of reconsideration about certain things instead of going along with each lynch without questioning your reads, but you're clearly not doing that.

Only wimps claim to pressure.

This isn't just pressure though. You've got a total of

5 people

who are willing to vote you. Only

5 votes

are required to lynch. That means this is life or death.

If you're actually town, it's your duty to the town to claim right here right now instead of trying to make this into a typing contest with me.

[Profane Confusion]

I looked back and that is a fair point; Patrick and Ether did indeed seem a bit more comfortable with you as the Day went on.

But come on now, Yos, the second part of what you're saying couldn't be further from the truth. If anyone has been trying to figure out your alignment, it's been me. I'd argue that I've probably spent more time trying to figure you out than anyone else has in this entire game. Look back over the amount of questions I've asked you Today - smargaret and I have written over 70 posts since our entrance to this game, a lot of my questions have been directed at you, and we just really got here Today on Day 3.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

We need to get an explanation out of Incog, now,

before I kill this wagon by claiming

.

I think you're town, Balam, and I think I got as much information out of incog with this little game of brinksminship as I'm likely to, so if you still want me to claim, I will.

I don't really think it'll accomplish much at this point, though.

Why the change?

[Profane Confusion]

Forgot to sign.

- smarg

[Profane Confusion]

I too would like a response to Balam's question. I've always thought that the roleblocking functionality of the Jailkeeper role might be more useful to concentrate on later in the game as opposed to early in the game where the doctoring function might be more useful. With Yos claiming to have had that solid of a Pathetric town read, you would think Yos might have, ya know, actually protected Pathetric and attempted to stop an NK that way instead of trying to go about it using the roundabout roleblocking way.

your reaction was to ignore everything I said and keep trying to get me lynched

.

He's town, you're much less likely to be

.

Riiiiiiiiight

.

I can see why you might think Mastermate's reaction was townish but what about Balam's whose reaction you also claimed was townish? Why would scum not react the way Balam reacted there?

[Profane Confusion]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but my impression is that busdriver's been in vogue as a normal role for a little while now.

I assume you mean Jailkeeper? If so then yes, I think it's been fairly in vogue as a normal role for a while now.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Yos, have you ever been a JK before? If so, link to the game.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

I don't buy YFC's claim and I don't buy that he's town. I think the JK claim is a fishing expedition and a convenient claim for a scum rb. Also, the claim just doesn't make sense.

So YFC thinks that a jailkeeper is better off trying to prevent a scum nk by targeting scum than by protecting. Thus, it can be assumed he must have had a scum read on us Day 1 since he targeted BW, our predecessor, N1. However, if you look at his voting patterns, YFC votes FD up until deadline is at hand, and then he switches to UB. He never votes for our slot until Day 2 - after he targeted us. Furthermore, if you go through his iso, he mentions us twice - once in ISO 17, where he accuses us of being lurkerscum and once in ISO 31, where he says we're mason-fishing and defends against arguments made by BW. That's it, over all of day 1. In the same ISO 17 where he says we're lurkerscum, he says that he has an outright scumread on FD. So why would town JK YFC choose to target us over FD in hopes of preventing a scum nk night 1?

Yeah, I didn't think he would either.

-smarg

[Profane Confusion]

Yos, my question was why choose us - your lurkerscum read - over FD, your scummy mcscummerson read. How did you think scum was going to stop your roleblock?

[Profane Confusion]

-smarg

[Profane Confusion]

I don't remember ever being a jailkeeper, offhand.

Of course, I did invent the role, years ago, and I've therefore thought about the strategic implications a lot.

I've got really bad news for you then: I don't believe your claim. Not one bit.

The math you used in your 1218 is almost insulting; it's all too convenient that you'd "make" the two things (roleblocking and doctoring) completely equal to each other by using math that only works under ONE assumption:

That Night choices are made 100% randomly.

But since this is the game of Mafia and since I know you're a good player, I'm going to assume that choices in this game aren't made 100% randomly; they're made based off of things that go on in the thread.

Let me simplify this:

1)

You claimed to have had an almost 100% town read on Pathetric.

2)

Even if you WERE 100% right about your scum reads, you'd have a certain percentage chance of roleblocking the CORRECT scum on Night 1 which is dependent on however many scum are in this game (whatever that number is is irrelevant; it'd certainly be less than that 100% town read you had on Pathetric though).

Given that, it makes only LOGICAL sense that a pro-town Jailkeeper would absolutely 100% protect the town read they had on Night 1 since no scums were hit on Day 1 and that probability number is going to be greater than the probability of stopping a kill (almost 100% (assuming you were right about your town read which in this case you would have been) compared to a lot less than 100%). No questions asked.

Your argument is almost like saying the following: I create a role similar to a Jailkeeper. Instead of forcing you to choose a player outside of yourself to protect/roleblock though, I give you the option of JK-ing yourself (a person you know to be 100% town). You're trying to tell me that even given that situation, you'd choose to try to roleblock scum as opposed to protecting yourself especially on a Night 1 after no scum have been lynched?

I want you lynched now. We'll get your buddy Copper Tomorrow.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

P.S. Apologies if that came off rudely. I get really amped up after I finish a jog lol.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Yos, my argument isn't so much that you having a town read automatically means that person's going to get killed; it's that you seemed pretty positive that Pathetric was town and that you therefore should have had them on auto-protect for so long as they lived... or at least on Night 1 when your chances of roleblocking a scum were much much lower than your chances of correctly protecting a pro-town player.

(As an aside: if it was any other pro-town player that you had just a decent read on, I'd probably give you more leeway on this but this was Pathetric, a player who a you-town would be quite quite quite capable of accurately reading their alignment due to meta and all that jazz. To a hypo you-town, reading Pathetric as town would almost be as second nature as just reading a town role PM in the inbox.)

I saw the part where you explained why you thought Pathetric would be alive the next Day, yeah; quite frankly, I don't really buy it since the wagon on them couldn't have ever been really serious (I think it amounted to something dumb like "they LIED to the town for claiming to be a newb in their first post!". Beaver was clearly an idiot). The second part about them receiving heat for pushing a mislynch? Eh. Town push mislynches all the time and then die the same Night. Can't really see why you'd think differently there. Either way, I can't really see why you'd bank on something like that when you had that solid of a read on a pair of players who are as solid of players and HUGE NK magnets as the tandem of Patrick and Ether.

The point about being worried about blocking a potential town PR seems like you're presenting a false dilemma; even if you submit Jailkeeps on the targets you find to be scummiest, you still run the risk of blocking a potential pro-town player because you just might have been incorrect with your read. So no.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Mod:

Prod Copper. Thanks.

[Profane Confusion]

I have nothing more to say to you right now, Yos. You're pissing me off because I really can't believe this could genuinely all be going over your head.

AGar, no logic behind the YFC wagon? So you think Yos's Night choices (particularly the one on Night 1) make sense coming from a hypo Yos-town?

I'm not even going to respond to FES's case unless someone asks me too. It's just that bad.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Actually, AGar, I really want you and your heads justifying why you chose to put FD at L-1 right now. Because last time I checked, Equinox in particular apparently had a town read on Fate based on his drunk-posting. And you guys never responded to my question back here either.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Balam, there was nothing scummy about Fate's backpedaling there. Was what he said probably bullshit? Maybe. But if you're town then think this through:

- You claim you know Fate's personality right? Then you'd agree with me when I say he's a fairly bull-headed player at times, yes? He strikes me as the kind of player who locks on a read and keeps pushing and pushing that player until they're just dead.

- But check this out: at a time that *I* was giving you some flak and therefore was directly COINCIDING with what would be his scum read of you, he doesn't use that opportunity to keep up his attack on you - HE DEFENDED YOU AGAINST ME BY DOING HIS "BACKPEDALING". Why would a Fate-scum do that? The only reason I could see for him doing that is if you two are scum together and you were distancing but that's clearly not true; you're pushing his lynch right now.

- That wasn't even the FIRST time he'd done that - he did that same exact thing with Frogito Ergo Sum and his white knight argument. Again, that was a time I was giving FES some flak and does Fate keep fueling that fire? No. He again gives reason for why FES might be town and protects FES against me and others.

Why would a Fate-scum spend all that time attacking two separate people and then completely flip his reads on those same TWO separate people when it would have been so much more beneficial for him at those times to continue with the attacks? This is exactly the reason why Final Destination is so damn town - he's not just locking onto reads and attack attack attacking - he's ALSO revising those reads when new evidence comes to light in people's favor. This wagon is horrendous - it might as well be nicknamed this guy's daughter:



...because it has MISS LYNCH written all over it.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

No, Yos. This is exactly what I was saying:

If Yos was 9000% sure she was town (as he claims he is and was), then

his duty as a protective role is to ensure her survival for as long as he's fucking breathing.

That is what a doc is SUPPOSED to do, not dance around with WIFOM "lol teheheh they wont NK the claimed cop so..."

THE DOC IS SUPPOSED TO ENSURE WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT THE PERSON THEY PROTECT WILL BE ALIVE IN THE FUCKING MORNING. THAT IS ALL.

It's funny how you and FES are probably the only ones in the entire thread who either don't get what I'm saying or are choosing to be obtuse about it.

I bet you didn't even read my 1262 which is pretty damn good evidence for why FD is probably town. But whatever, Yos, you're scum, you've got your little mislynch lined up, you'll be surviving yet another Day so you obviously don't care.

[Profane Confusion]

unvote

I'd like Final Destination to point out any and all of their breadcrumbs. I don't completely understand the reasons for the investigation choices they're claiming to have made.

[Profane Confusion]

Good point but I'd still like the breadcrumbs.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Can Balam point out where Final Destination hinted they had a power role? I'm looking back, and I can't find it.

I've discussed this with smargaret and the thing we're thinking is this: Final Destination wasn't really forced into claiming a PR at this point just because of Balam's claim. I don't see the soft-claims that Balam is talking about; if they can be pointed out that would be appreciated otherwise, I can't really see why a hypo Final Destination-scum would have been unable to claim Vanilla right now in line with a hypo Balam-town's claim. Whereas what they've done now (i.e. claim Cop in the face of someone claiming to have role-based info that they're not a PR) doesn't really make all that much sense coming from scum because they wouldn't be able to get away with it for too long.

The breadcrumbs that Final Destination pointed out also seem to check out from what I could see.

-~-~-~

Weirdly though, Balam's claim doesn't really seem to make all that much sense coming from scum either to me at least; smargaret seems to think otherwise.

I don't really know what to believe here.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

As Incog said, I believe FD over Balam. However, I think we should lynch YFC today - I don't see the reason for scumBalam to pull that for a townYFC, so I think they have the same alignment. It's better to get rid of a roleblocker than an unknown mafia power role here because then scum are forced to either kill FD (deciding tomorrow's lynch for us) or let him investigate (giving us another night's results should he flip town).

Fonzi, the only way that works is if Balam really is a rolecop. This isn't out of the realm of possibility, but we'll know if that's the case as soon as Balam flips, and I don't see why he'd try to draw a claim from FD in a way that outs him as scum when he could have used his real target from either night instead, especially given how much suspicion FD was under.
- smarg

[Profane Confusion]

Balam, I don't see why you're going into an almost victory-dance mode; whether or not Final Destination is scum doesn't change the fact that I still have a town role PM in my inbox. Obviously I probably could and should expect a lot of heat for my actions around Final Destination if he is scum, but I'm fully prepared to defend myself should that time come because I'm still town.

What's been "ridiculously scummy" about me? You (and I'm looking at you, Equinox) haven't said anything like that all game; in fact, you used my reasoning about Fate to end up unvoting in the first place.

Also, I hate to lament like this in the thread because someone will undoubtedly try to say that I'm attempting to spread paranoia or some b.s. like that, but I find it really odd that you supposedly claim to have investigated the exact two people who ended up on the chopping block right here down to the wire on Day 3. What made you choose them as your targets?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Well, I'll let smargaret respond on her own behalf their but looking at my QT she said something to the effect of (paraphrasing) 'there's no scum motivation for scum-Balam to clear town-YFC'. I'm assuming she was thinking along the lines of Yos potentially being a scum JK and since you're claiming rolecop, you'd have no real idea about what alignment Yos actually is should your claim be true.

Preview edit: I'd like to see a response to Lord Fonzi's question too.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Incog pretty much covered why I think Yos is the better lynch. I don't see YFC/Balam as T/S, so lynching YFC is essentially the same as lynching Balam, except we'd get a resolution to the Fate/Balam thing or we'd get an investigative result. If we leave YFC alive tonight, FD doesn't get to investigate again and scum can kill/block him. I don't think that the risk that I'm wrong and YFC/Balam are of different alignments is great enough to outweigh the benefit we'd get from townFD living another night.

-smarg

[Profane Confusion]

This is one of the most confusing shits I've ever read.

DaSpot, which of your two results did the mod revise? Or was it both of them?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

You may be able to swing the wagon onto us if you so strongly believe us to be scum, and the only way we can be scum is with YosFlavouredCayke. Our alignments are tied together here.

That's not completely true; YosCayke could still be town with you as scum.

What's really needed is for DaSpot to figure out what his claimed results really mean.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

I unvoted a long time ago, Yos. Don't be silly.

Either way, I'm leaning towards believing DaSpot's claim. DaSpot, your claim doesn't completely implicate Yos as scum unless your results mean something else. If on Night 2 you got the same result that you got on Night 1, then to me that would indicate that YosCayke either is lying or the mod screwed up or some other shenanigans. Either way, you need to PM the mod to figure this out what's the difference between a No Result and a No Visit.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

DaSpot, PM the mod to figure out what the difference is between No Result and No Visit. Jeeze.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Apparently my posts are suddenly invisible to everyone.

ATTENTION:

No decision should be made just yet until DaSpot figures out what his results actually mean.

In addition, assuming both DaSpot and YosFlavouredCayke are telling the truth about their roles, I'm pretty sure we can coordinate their Night actions much better right here right now in order to get the most information from them as possible especially if the correct scum is lynched Today.

So I recommend no votes be laid down just yet until we figure all this mess out.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

On further thought, that whole thing with possibly coordinating Night actions right now in the thread probably won't work as well as I initially thought it would. Even if we do lynch the correct scum Today, if we're dealing with 3 scum total, that'd still leave us with 2 scum left alive so a coordinating kind of thing wouldn't work too well at this time. It'd probably work better in a situation where there's only 1 scum left.

I'm pretty torn about this whole thing because if I was wrong about all of these people then I'm going to have to swallow a lot of my pride and have to take look at this game from a completely different angle. That whole David Lynch thing is going to make me lol really hard if I was actually protecting the completely wrong guy from a lynch after all. A lot of things at this point really are pointing to Balam's claim being more truthful; that song breadcrumb, Yos' claim... it all seems to match up. Whereas the only real defense that I can think of for FD's behalf was that I thought he was town all along and that whole thing about how I didn't think FD actually *had* to claim Cop there and could've easily claimed Vanilla instead. That's kind of tossed though since it was AGM who did the claim; if he didn't read a possible Fate-scum's posts before claiming, he could have thought Fate fake soft-claimed much harder than he actually did and could have just blurted out the potential fake-claim anyway since it would have been something they were working on all along (due to the breadcrumbs).

Either way, I don't object to Lord Fonzi laying down the hammer in 3 hour's time. At this point I just want some resolution.

[Profane Confusion]

And that was me.

- Incog.

[Profane Confusion]

I have a random question for Lord Fonzi, Mastermate, and DaSpot actually since I already know the answer that has been pushed by Balam and YFC already: assuming FD-scum, who could you see as FD's potential buddy(ies)? Because I personally can't see any.

Lord Fonzi wouldn't really make that much sense as an FD buddy unless he's been hyper-bussing all game, Mastermate doesn't completely make sense as an FD buddy either, Copper, eh, possibly but kinda doubted, DaSpot seems town to me, and all the other ones are ruled out by a lot of POE stuff. And I know I'm definitely not scum. So who exactly? Whereas with Balam, I could see a lot more potential for possible buddies. It's weird because even though Balam's claim makes complete sense, FD still rings very town to me. And that's really bugging me.

[Profane Confusion]

Actually, I'd really like an answer from the people I called out in my last post before any kind of a hammer is dropped.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Well yeah.

I don't think Final Destination would claim an innocent read on a buddy especially the one he actually highlighted in green (that would be Mastermate/The Unicorns).

Lord Fonzi has been pushing for an FD lynch for such a long time when other possibilities have existed; I can't see why they would have felt bussing was the only plausible play at that point.

Copper's possible, but I don't know if they would still continue to take up the position they're taking up against Balam now if they were scum. Bussing FD would be the more logical move, I think.

And that's it. A lot of it is WIFOM, but hey, that's the way the game of Mafia works.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Et tu Profanete?

I'm putting forth reasons for why I'm really not buying you as scum. You don't seem to have any buddies.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

What the fuck?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

You say it was your choice to gambit but AGM was the one who laid down the Cop claim. Can you explain that part?

[Profane Confusion]

I don't really know what to say about this because if what you've written is true it seems like it went so far as to cross the game rules (RayFrost supposedly talking about the game with you outside of the thread).

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

It really isn't Mafia.

I want to see what the mod does about this because whatever it is it's pretty much bullshit.

[Profane Confusion]

The honorable course would have been to bring it to the mod's attention and ask to both be replaced or something of that sort. You're claiming that you used information from an AIM conversation to come to a conclusion about another person's alignment. That's pretty much talking about the game outside of the thread and goes completely against game rules.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Our agenda for Today:

1) Mass claim
2) Learn what our so-called "power roles" did
3) Lynch YosCayke

Understood? Good.

If everyone agrees to mass claim, I don't mind who goes first. Heck, I don't mind starting. But as long as #3 of our agenda gets done, I'll be a happy man.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Like I said, I have no qualms with when I go.

smargaret and I are as Vanilla as they come.

I'd like either FES or Copper to go next. FES, since you're around, you might as well go.

Balam, why would anyone think you're confirmed scum?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Preview edit: I wrote that at the end of the day, pretty much immediately after the spat with Final Destination. Mastermate claimed we were scum if Final Destination flipped town, and the environment at the time was "1 of Balam or Final Destination is scum, now die" even after the gambit was revealed.

The majority of what you've written there is stuff that should have happened across the Night though.

[Profane Confusion]

Heh.

Well, Copper's claim is about what I expected from that spot considering something they said earlier in the game. If they claimed anything other than Vanilla, I likely would have been pushing for their lynch right now.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Dude, you're not confirmed town anything. The only thing Balam has said about you is that you have the ability to block and protect; Balam has claimed Rolecop, which means he/she/it or whatever they are has no clue what your alignment is, so I don't get why you're coming in here claiming otherwise.

I think you're scum for the reasons I've listed Yesterday and because pretty much everything you've done this game has been completely wrong and completely beneficial for scum; starting from your supposed protections on Night 1 and Night 2, your claimed suspicions of practically the same three obvtown people from pretty much Day 1 to the present, and now your most recent "Night choice" to Jailkeep Mastermate? That's the most hilarious load of crap I've ever heard. I can't believe you seriously just wrote this:

with Spot being the most obvious scum target

and this:

but I didn't want to block the tracker.

...in the same sentence. Final Destination and I covered this Yesterday with the whole Pathetric thing, and you still didn't learn?

You REEK of scum. I can't believe you're even trying to pin a potential town loss on Fate's back; if you do manage to somehow be town here, I think it's pretty much YOUR fault that we've lost.

Looking at vote counts, every single person who's ever been on your wagon is now dead town (well, with the exception of the Unicorns/Mastermate). I want to bring them justice. Your buddy(ies) can wait.

[Profane Confusion]

Okay, there's something I'm confused about. YosFlavouredCayke, as jailkeeper, is the protective role, yet scum went ahead and blocked the role cop, as if they knew DaSpotthatkillsu was not going to be protected.

Question: why wouldn't this make you lean towards Yos being scum here?

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

The Copper explanation made sense on the surface, but I see no reason for why the mod couldn't throw something like a scum JK in to the mix to make the set-up a bit less predictable especially if your claim is truthful and actually town-sided.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

I'm not even sure we necessarily even need to be dealing with 3 scum here. Around the moment smargaret and I replaced into the game, we for the longest time had thought the game might have been Mountainous with maybe only 2 scum since we knew our role to be Vanilla, and the fact that we saw all the dead Vanillas that had already been killed/lynched upon our arrival. Copper had actually mentioned something about their hydra thinking the game might have been Mountainous too; when I saw that I was surprised actually because I thought we were the only ones who might have been considering that. It was probably one of the few lines Copper has written that made me think that hydra might be seeing the game from a town perspective.

If we *are* dealing with 2 scum here, I wouldn't at all be surprised with a set-up that consisted of one pro-town power role and one scum power role. That would work balance-wise in my eyes.

If PC was town, there's no way he'd be so sanguane about Fate's horrible cop fakeclaim, and so willing to let him off the hook for it. Especially not if he believes Balam is town, which he seems to; that means a town rolecop targeted a vanilla, said he was vanilla, and that person then...claimed cop, just to fuck with the town.

I'm in no way saying that Fate isn't partially to blame for the predicament we're in, but if you are indeed somehow town, I think the blunders you've made this game outweigh the one mistake Fate/AGM made when they fakeclaimed.

Where do you get the idea that I believe Balam is town?

[Profane Confusion]

Hm that's a fair point. TheButtonmen has been pretty consistent with respect to setting deadlines.

Mod:

Do we have a deadline for Day 5?

[Profane Confusion]

I won't be laying any kind of a vote down until I get some confirmation from the mod about what's going on here.

Er, LF, how am I a sure thing? I mean think about the scum group you're proposing there - do you really think that grouping even makes sense?

@Mastermate: We still need a claim from you. Also, I'm curious to know what you think about the stuff Final Destination said about the AIM conversation he had with the RayFrost portion of the hydra.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Checking in and not hammering. If nobody's willing to unvote, then I guess I'm pretty much waiting to see what FES does at this point because that should narrow things down by a whole lot for me.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

So which of you was the idiot townie who lent their hand in the Copper mislynch?

[Profane Confusion]

As annoying as Yos's jailkeeps have CONTINUED to be, I have to admit that the dude's probably town unfortunately.

Yos, who did you jailkeep last Night?

And before any of you sillies go lolvote:PC, I want you all to seriously THINK about what smargaret and I have said and done this game and whether or not our actions even make sense as scum. Because I'm telling you right now that they don't.

Copper was bussed Yesterday by at least one of Lord Fonzi/FES. I know this because I know I'm town but if you need more reason to see this just think about it logically: how often do potential LyLo wagons lynch correctly that quickly?

Spoiler: CLICK ME FOR THE ANSWER

NEVER.

I don't think they'd both bus Copper at the same time, so my guess is Mastermate is indeed the third scum since it looks like we're probably dealing with a scum team of 3 people.

I want to hear about what Yos did last Night.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Question: What is it that now makes you sure of YosCayke's alignment being town?

I'm kind of confused by that because Yesterday you were arguing that the balance looked about right with a single PR in the set-up, and the only things that have changed since that point are the scum flip and Balam's Rolecop flip.

Incidentally, I've never really said that I think you're definitely guilty - my last post was a guess based on how I think the scum would have acted Yesterday; the thing that's bugging me about that guess is how my read of your predecessor could have been that off.

- Incog

[Profane Confusion]

Yos, considering Copper's awful level of activity throughout the game, do you really think it's right to make that kind of assumption? I think you're being a bit premature with your vote.

- Incog