The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Mastermate]

Mastermate here, obv town. Just sayin'...

[Mastermate]

@Yos: Unicorn Breatheren was fairly obviously referring to the post content below about Fonz with the tl:dr about the tornado, I'm pretty sure he wasn't being a dick to you. He was pretty pissed off when Fonz made the same read you did.

Anyway I've done my first reading and I'm coming up.

Town

Balam
DaSpotthatkillsu
Final Destination
Profane Confusion

Unknown

Copper

Scum

YosFlavouredCayke
Lord Fonzi
Frogito Ergo Sum

Next on my priority list is to confirm my read of Final Destination and try and properly get Coppers points against Balam and see where that takes my reads. Depending on Step 1 works out I also need to come up with something I can present to my partner about why I think the people who are scum are scum.

-Primate

[Mastermate]

I won't be happy if someone ends the day whilst I'm still getting my reads in order.

[Mastermate]

Just answer. It's a legitimate question and I'm also interested.

-P

[Mastermate]

Unvote: YosCayke

ps: Yos, I don't know whether this is kosher to ask in a game like this but how active is cayke in your alt?

[Mastermate]

PPS: Consider it still there because I want you to claim, I'm just wary of a Balam hammer.

[Mastermate]

Just answer. It's a legitimate question and I'm also interested.

-P

I got things massively mixed in my head and thought Incog was part of your hydra, sorry if this was rude.

[Mastermate]

By the by, I noticed the PR softclaim, but that wasn't why I unvoted. I unvoted becuase I still wasn't sure on an opinion of YFC and Belam was getting pretty agressive so I wussed out because I wasn't happy supporting that lynch.

I soured on my read of fate very quickly when I saw that he really is as yelley as scum as he is as town. I saw someone say it earlier in the game, but I assumed it was in exaggeration. It's a little different in this game but it feels more restrained and that's easily attributable to Hydra or the fact this game has better playerlist than the one I looked at.

That claims pretty poor but it's plausible. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but my impression is that busdriver's been in vogue as a normal role for a little while now. I want to hear Yos's reasoning for those two targets. Also I'm pretty sour about the fact he messed about at claim in the way he did without a proper stopper.

Honestly I'm pissed off because it feels like someones playing me and I don't know who it is. Eh. Long night for me. Going to go plead MoS for help.

[Mastermate]

I do, yeah, sorry. And thanks. They were both roles that I suggested to a buddy as falseclaims in the last game I was mafia in and I was pondering on the connotations of that whilst I wrote it.

@Yos: That's viable, and it's the plausible argument I wondered if you were going to make. I don't agree, I prefer defensive protection early game because it's so easy for scums to give their kills to their least suspected members to avoid RBs and Tracks, and I prefer the doc options to prevent a kill. Also because I think it's unlikely for you to actually block another town ability, but I do think I'm risking the odds a little so I agree with you there.

[Mastermate]

YosFlavouredCayke ISO:

For tldr, skip down to "Conclusions"

YosFlavouredCayke and pathetrick backed each other up as probably town for most of Day 1, and then pathetrick showed up dead the first night. Could have been a scum ploy to make YosFlavouredCayke look good.

In general, YosFlavouredCayke was very buddy-buddy with pathetrick, essentially citing their outside friendship as a reason to think they were town. Comments like "Ether doesn't say she's town unless she's town" have no real meaning in a game of mafia. The same with "I didn't think there's any way that anyone pro-town could read Ether's posts and not see that they all screamed town." Neither provide any actual reasoning to think pathetrick was protown, but this opinion seems to be the basis of many of YosFlavouredCayke's actions on Day 1. Given Yos' tendency to be a very logically driven player, I'm not liking this coming from him.

YosFlavouredCayke defended Frogito Ergo Scum when prompted to. They have also been fixated on Final Destination since Day 1, and had only a small reason to vote them in the first place. Even when Yos went back and did ISOs on people, here was the total reasoning for Pathetric and Final Destination:

"100% superdupertriplelooper obvtown"
"scummy."

Since they hadn't presented much to begin with, this doesn't amount to very much.

Since Yos tried to defend himself by saying buddying is not a scumtell, I'll address that as well. Buddying in and of itself is not a scumtell, but it is a scumtell when there is no reasoning presented to back up strong declarations of someone's innocence. The same applies to attacking someone, so it's less about the act of buddying and more about the lack of evidence.

Cayke claims that FD had been the focus for a lot of their posts, but there had been no real content other than the slight scumtell mentioned in the inital vote. I don't know if she's just not paying attention, or if they're trying to pull the wool over our eyes. If you say something enough times it must be true! [/obvobv] The point here is that they may have spent time talking about FD and accusing them of being scum, but they didn't spend a lot of time actually presenting reasons for FD to be scum, so to go through and do ISOs of everyone and then just conclude that FD is "scummy." doesn't sit well with me at all, and it feels like a copout.

On the other hand, I feel compelled to point out that some of the attacks on YosFlavouredCayke have been poorly explained/executed, and I don't necessarily agree with them. The idea that they are scum just because pathetrick is town (this was on Day 1) is retarded, so I don't know what Beaver Weasel was smoking. It's not as simple as that, and to try and formulate an attack in that manner isn't useful at all.

More defense of FES.

Next a lurker wagon, then OMGUSing and OMGUS attack on themselves. Went gung-ho after DaSpot, kinda odd after the complete lack of arguments presented against FD, who was obvscum up until the point that Cayke decided to disagree with Yos and call them town, at which point Yos completely stopped mentioning them.

I don't like the argument that people who felt pathetrick might be scum are probably scum themselves. It completely fails to acknowledge that townies can be wrong and that scum who *know* pathetrick is town can also call them protown in order to win points with the rest of the town.

More defense of FES, saying they are "so obviously a mislynch, it hurts to watch." Another emotional ploy without any reasoning. So far the only reasoning I have found is CES' stubbornness being a town tell, nothing else.

Agreed that voting someone you think is scum is never a useless endeavor. Good logic here.

When finally pushed to present evidence on DaSpot, went through and picked over every tiny thing they did. Good post, but we wonder why it took them so long to present any of this reasoning.

Whoa, all of a sudden it's back to FD being scum on Day 3? Where did this come from and why have we still not gotten reasoning for it?

Finally Profane Confusion manages to coax some reasoning about FD, why did it take 2 1/2 days to get this from them?

Conclusions:

Protown CES generally leads games, and FES isn't doing that, so we're not sure why YosFlavouredCayke is so convinced that FES is town. Not a lot of evidence in favor of FES at this point. However, they aren't necessarily scum either, because there isn't strong evidence either way.

Everything from YosFlavouredCayke seems really uninspired this game. Not at all what we'd expect from them if they were town. A lot of their posts calling people scummy are rarely backed up with arguments or reasoning, and they have called people obvtown to the point of defending them vehemently without even presenting logic to back up their opinion.

Note that this ISO in no way reflects a town or scum read on FD or anyone else at this point. Those ISOs have not been performed in-depth yet. We don't question YosFlavouredCayke's opinion of FD outright, but rather the way in which they behaved regarding FD's wagon.

YosFlavouredCayke: Questionably Scummy

[Mastermate-approved post]

[Mastermate]

I'm also rather confused about how Mastermate could think we didn't give logical arguments for why Ether was obviously town on day 1, or for why we didn't give logical arguments for why FD is scum. I mean, of course I'm very much a gut player, always have been, but I used a great deal of logic as well in both cases.

I welcome you to quote your "logic" for all to see, because an ISO of your posts didn't reveal very much. You keep claiming that you have all these great reasons for pathetrick to be town and FD to be scum, but you weren't very forthcoming with actual arguments.

And this is just odd:

Comments like "Ether doesn't say she's town unless she's town" have no real meaning in a game of mafia.

There are no rules about what can and can't be a tell, matermate. If Cayke believed that Ether saying that is a town tell for her, and she's correct about that (and she probably is, IMHO), then of course she should say so, especially considering that multiple people were voting the obviously town Ether for terrible reasons at the time.

So you're saying that in every game that Ether does not just immediately come out and say she is protown, you will advocate her lynch Day 1? Because if that's not true, then your claim means absolutely

nothing

.

Pointing out people's terrible arguments against another player is different from declaring them protown. Heck, I even went so far as to point out a terrible argument against you, because it was a truly terrible reason to be voting you. That doesn't mean I think you are obvtown. If you're going to claim someone is obviously protown, you'd better have something to back that up. You spent way more of your time ranting about how obviously town pathetrick was than you did arguing against the terrible reasons people had for voting them. A protown person would be spending their time debunking bad arguments rather than faithfully repeating the same "obvtown" fluff comments over and over.

[Mastermate]

Note: The FD ISO is coming, but that's going to take more time, so we decided to knock out the Copper ISO we were planning to do anyway.

Copper ISO:

Copper's first post detailing their opinion of FD is very nice, I definitely like the point about them giving up their aggression somewhat being a town tell. However, it remains to be seen until we do our FD ISO whether or not they have actually toned themselves down.

Also like their analysis of our previous selves, the theory is sound and resonates strongly with us since we both know our own alignment and were not the ones to make those actions.

Good read on YosFlavouredCayke, very similar to ours.

Not particularly sure why they went with the Beaver Weasel vote, though.

Now you're willing to put FES at L-2 simply because they refused to unvote?

Still, seeing a lot of decent looking logic from Copper's early posts. Definitely one of the less random hydras.

Noting that they unvote FES right before the end of the day.

Not sure what to think of the Balam vote, since at least one of our heads initially read Balam as town. Final conclusion on Balam would take more reading, though.

Not much else going on after that.

Conclusion:

Copper has made only 3 posts in Day 3, definitely not a good sign with all the bandwagons that have been going around. I'd like to see them comment more on the high profile players, as I'm afraid that their vote on Balam is an attempt to seem like they are still actively hunting scum while avoiding getting mixed up in anything that could get the spotlight on themselves.

Copper: Neutral

[Mastermate]

Frogito Ergo Sum ISO

Putting FD in hammer range is pretty much what we expect from FES.

FES argues that FD is scum because they have not been aggressive, whereas Copper made the argument that FD toning it back intentionally was a town tell. I'd like to see these two argue their counterpoints.

Definitely not seeing what we expect from FES. As noted in our YosCayke ISO, our meta would have them leading the town more aggressively, but they seem content to sit back and respond to people instead.

Not sure why FES can't understand why YosCaykeScum would buddy up to pathetrick and then kill them off to gain points with the rest of the town for defending them. YosCaykeScumWithFrogitoErgoScum?

Interesting that FES doesn't want to compromise onto a lesser suspect and then does just that in their very next post, switching votes to Spot.

Conclusion:

The thing I'm having trouble with in this read is seeing a town-CES taking a backseat to Shanba in their hydra. They obviously have very different playstyles, but it feels like they have been pulling CES back somewhat this game. Definitely more advantageous for scum-FES than if they were town.

Frogito Ergo Neutral-leaning Scum

[Mastermate]

Fun times.

Despite Danaspots claim (which I believe to be legitimate), I think the lynch is between Balam and FD. I don't really think the claim itself tells us anything, despite the fact it kind of looks like it does.

Belams claim's also fine as that breadcrumbs pretty good and his behaviours been pretty town too. I don't think Belam is running cover on his scumbuddy Yos. FD's claim looks a lot like bollocks made up under pressure.

[/Not Mastermate Approved]

[Mastermate]

Yep. Even if you think Yos is scum it's pretty much impossible for one of Balam and FD to not also be scum so pick from that pool instead of unnecessarily widening it.

W/regards to targetting Yos/Dana I think it's a pretty poor idea. Both are roles that rely on the target actually doing the kill and if we make either of their targets known then they lose their effectiveness because scum can juggle their kills giving it to the guy who isn't targeted.

[Mastermate]

Vote Final Destination

Let's kill him and pretend this never happened. He shouldn't have brought it up, regardless of whether it happened or not. If it did happened, he should have referred it to the mod and the mod dealt with it quietly to both parties satisfaction. So unless I've miscounted he's dead now and we have a fresh tomorrow.

PS: If it did happen it's a much your fault as his. If someone is having a discussion about the game with you, you are equally to blame because you didn't close the aim window. Takes two people to have a discussion.

[Mastermate]

We just noticed that the last two posts were made under the wrong account. Regardless, both posts were approved by our entire hydra. One of the heads is just stupid and forgot to change accounts. Copying them here for ISO:

We have a plan that might help the town out. YosFlavouredCayke, you are NOT to target DaSpot tonight. Balam, same thing. We trust DaSpot's claim more than either of your claims, since Copper has made valid points about the potential scum link between you two. Both of you pick someone else to target tonight or be prepared to be lynched tomorrow for fucking over the town.

DaSpot, please track Balam, YosFlavouredCayke, or their potential scumpartner, if you think you know who it is. If you decide not to choose one of these two, you had better be very certain.

The players with the doctor role will be protecting DaSpot tonight.

Tomorrow, Balam and YosFlavouredCayke will reveal who they targeted, and DaSpot will announce who they tracked. This will keep Balam and YosFlavouredCayke honest.

Balam, we are prepared to not believe you if the person you target ends up dead, so don't even try that shit.

Note that this plan should only be enacted if FD comes up as a vanilla townie. If they come up as a power role (unlikely), we know to lynch Balam tomorrow and YosFlavouredCayke after that. If they come up as scum, we aren't in LYLO, and I doubt that YosFlavouredCayke and Balam just bussed FD *and* made a complicated claim confirm. So if FD doesn't come up as a townie without abilities, all power roles should just resume doing their thing. This may or may not mean doing your part of the plan anyway, it's up to you.

Sorry for the triple post.

[Mastermate]

Additionally, if FD flips town, we should probably just be lynching Balam straight off anyway, because we cannot see Fate-town completely making up this conversation that rayfrost/Balam claims never even happened. Just wanted to point that out in case scum decided to kill us tonight. I'm going to repeat that again in bold:

If Final Destination flips town, Balam is lying to us about never having had that conversation. Thus, Balam is scum because Balam-town would have no reason to lie about this.

[Mastermate]

We're waiting for YosFlavouredCayke to claim their "results" before we claim our role (although if our better half decides to claim, I won't be too put out). Not going to give them any chances, although you townie sheep have already given them plenty of safe targets.

Step 1: I commend YosFlavouredCayke and Balam for having the balls to call our protection bluff with DaSpot.

Step 2: Lynch YosFlavouredCayke for being an obvious mafia roleblocker who can easily claim to be jailkeeper because they know who's going to die each night.

Step 3: Lynch Balam for being YosFlavouredCayke's obvious scumpartner.

Step 4: Lynch the third mafia and win.

More analysis to come tomorrow, I need to play some LoL.

[Mastermate]

I love how YosCayke and Balam are shoveling shit back and forth as fast as they can. It's kinda cute, but it'd be sad if it worked at this point. I'm going to separate this out into several points indicated by large text so you can't possibly screw this up.

Point #1: There is no scum jailkeeper.

- At best, YosCayke is a mafia roleblocker who claimed jailkeeper so they could keep running this "mafia jailkeeper doesn't make sense as a probably role" gambit. It was pretty clever at first, but don't let it fool you.

Point #2: Mafia Balam set up Mafia YosCayke's roleclaim in advance because they are scum together and planned it out.

- Don't make the mistake of thinking these guys don't have it in them to plan ahead. Breadcrumbing a fakeclaim in advance is par for the course, and I'd expect nothing less from Yos2.

Point #3: After we lynch YosCayke, don't let their bullshit today get Balam off the hook as they try to set him up for a long-term win.

- Yos knows he's done today, so he's just setting things up for Balam to try and look good.

Point #4: Even after we breadcrumbed a doctor role at the end of the day yesterday, YosCayke supposedly blocked us anyway.

- That pretty much seals them being scum at this point. Scum YosCayke would block us so they could kill DaSpot without problems, but town YosCayke would not have reason to target us.

Point #5: Balam only breadcrumbed YosCayke's roleclaim.

- I don't believe they are a rolecop at all, much less a town one. They claimed to have a result on FD, but didn't even breadcrumb it, even after taking all the trouble to breadcrumb YosCayke's. If you have multiple results and you're breadcrumbing, you either do them all or none of them. You only do one if you're setting up your scumpartner's claim in advance and don't know who you're going to have to claim that second result on yet. It was pretty obvious FD was townie when they claimed, so countering their "cop" claim wasn't a big gamble. With someone as high profile as FD being under suspicion all game, any sane power role would have breadcrumbed that result so they couldn't fake claim later in the game.

Point #6: Balam (aka rayfrost) claimed that the conversation between him and Fate never happened.

- I don't see town Fate lying about this, especially when pretending the conversation never happened would have actually benefited him *more*. I think rayfrost lied about this to help get Fate lynched and then hoped it would be ignored the next day. They are counting on Fate's reputation as a loose cannon to get a reprieve on this point, but we're not letting it pass.

Point #7: Be careful when deciphering the third scumbuddy today and in the future.

- YosCayke and Balam know their days are numbered at this point, so they are trying to play the long game and set up a scum win, because we have to lynch 100% correctly from here on out. At first we thought it was going to be PC as #3, based on YosCayke's attack on them at the end of the last day. Still not sure, but they are at least distancing hardcore right now. Not going to reveal any other conclusions on the third scum at this point, because it's harder for them to obfuscate it if they don't know what we've caught on to already.

In fact, we're confident enough in our suspicions to place our vote.

Vote: YosFlavouredCayke, FoS: Balam

Come on, BalamCayke, I dare you to claim that our voting makes us scum because it risks giving the scum the win. Oldest excuse in the book.

[Mastermate]

13 players, 3 scum (at least 1 with power), at least 1 town power role. Seems about right, actually.

Whoops...quoted for ISOs.

[Mastermate]

@Mastermate: We still need a claim from you. Also, I'm curious to know what you think about the stuff Final Destination said about the AIM conversation he had with the RayFrost portion of the hydra.

- Incog

We're waiting to hear from YosCayke before laying our claim down, although we feel our role is fairly obvious at this point. Still, we will neither confirm nor deny any guesses officially at this time.

Point #6: Balam (aka rayfrost) claimed that the conversation between him and Fate never happened.

- I don't see town Fate lying about this, especially when pretending the conversation never happened would have actually benefited him *more*. I think rayfrost lied about this to help get Fate lynched and then hoped it would be ignored the next day. They are counting on Fate's reputation as a loose cannon to get a reprieve on this point, but we're not letting it pass.

[Mastermate]

(Equinox)

BRING IT, BABY.

Before I start launching plaintains, I'm going to talk about setups. I did a search for "jailkeeper" in the phpBB3 game forums, and I've learned quite a bit about interesting setups. First and foremost is that every instance of a mafia-aligned, neutral-aligned, or self-aligned^(!) jailkeeper was accompanied by some killing power on an opposing side. Theoretically speaking, it makes no sense to have a jailkeeper for shits and giggles, but I figured I might as well get evidence to back that up. I've kept an incomplete list saved in drafts in case some lazybutt wants to call me out on this. (It's incomplete because I stopped taking notes halfway.)

Again, we're not arguing that there is a mafia jailkeeper, so stop trying to convince us otherwise. There is a mafia roleblocker, NOT a mafia jailkeeper. There are plenty of mafia roleblockers without opposing town killing roles.

Oh, yeah, I'm not going to search the archives. You do that if you don't believe me.

Let's start, then. First, I have a complaint from AGar: Mastermate went into this crusade about {mafia role cop, mafia roleblocker} without thinking about how weird that setup would be against {town tracker}. Yeah, sure, we've got the rest of the mass claim to do, but

Mastermate is already attacking

. Bold move, misters.

We chastised one of our heads for hammering before the other got to read the thread and realize how obviously scummy you and YosCayke were. Since we realized you were both scum at the end of yesterday, that is why we set up the plan to try and force you into not having useless results today. Unfortunately, you found a way to call our bluff and be completely useless power roles last night.

Secondly, we don't believe there is a mafia role cop. We don't believe you have any special abilities, Balam. Don't try to pull that setup shenanigans with us.

Preview edit:

13 players, 3 scum (at least 1 with power), at least 1 town power role.

Wait, are you seriously arguing that I'm actually a mafia goon who just magically knew that Final Destination was vanilla despite picking up power role breadcrumbs from them? That's kind of hilarious.

Okay, let's wade through that very nice-looking wall with the giant words. I'm lazy and don't want to quote stripe, so here's a handy list of what I think of Mastermate's arguments.

Point #1: The part about there being no scum jailkeeper is probably true with evidence pointing that way, but YosFlavouredCayke is actually a jailkeeper. True story.

You can't refute it so you just deny it? Hmm, that sounds familiar...

Point #2: Oh, we totally planned on joint-claiming role cop and jailkeeper just when we could have just lynched Final Destination with much less dirt on our hands. "But I wouldn't put it past Yosarian2!" What do they say about conspiracy theories, again?[
Point #3: Ooh, chain lynches, I

love

chain lynches. Yeah, no.

We've set up more complicated claims in the past. What you did isn't all that convoluted.

Point #4: I'll admit that I'm worried about YosFlavouredCayke for this reason, but now that you've mentioned it, there's another problem. You didn't have to actually crumb doctor; YosFlavouredCayke could have easily made the argument that they got roleblocked and then DaSpotthatkillsu died, all without you trying to draw protects away from the bullseye. Before you claim that we planned this argument/scheme out ahead of time, think about this: If we're a scum team, we're in dire straits, and we'd be much better off immediately cross-bussing each other with roleblock results.

We were worried that if we didn't mention protection we would get attacked for creating a plan that put DaSpot in obvious danger. Thus, we made sure to mention protection on them for completeness. More on this and Fate's involvement after our role claim.

Point #5: AGar crumbed the result on Final Destination. However, the point could be made that we waited until Night 2 to crumb a result on YosFlavouredCayke. We're still town role cop. If you want to go wage war about who breadcrumbed more, I point you to Final Destination. Yep.

Quote please?

Point #6: I already explained this. Clearly, you did not even read my post. Way to scum hunt.

Quote please? I read your posts yesterday and you clearly stated that rayfrost never had this conversation with Fate.

Point #7: LOL I DON'T KNOW WHO THE LAST SCUM IS SO I'MMA PLAY IT OFF

Obviously if we knew who the last scum was we would say something. We're not clairvoyent, duh... We already shared with you our strongest lead for Scum #3, but we haven't had time to discuss the other possibilities in depth enough to feel comfortable sharing them. Plus, we'd like to gather more evidence before trying to present a case. Regardless, we expect to die tonight, so we plan to put it together before the end of the day.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say that Mastermate is probably scum so eager to get their prime mislynch that they forgot to think about why that pairing would make even the most remote amount of sense.

Yeah, I just called YosFlavouredCayke town. Their action last night does not make sense to me, but I'm having

a lot

of trouble believing that they're a mafia jailkeeper when there's been no evidence of either a serial killer or a vigilante... or even anything to counter it, apart from the funny-looking role cop. "Funny-looking role cop" is not a convincing argument.

Preview edit: ...I got ninja'd by walls. ._.

Unfortunately for you, your arguments in favor of YosCayke's role are absolutely irrelevant, since your own role is called into question and you are the only thing supposedly confirming that YosCayke is a jailkeeper and not a roleblocker.

Er, LF, how am I a sure thing? I mean think about the scum group you're proposing there - do you really think that grouping even makes sense?

You're a sure thing because I'm pretty sure that you and Copper are scum, but I'm not sure which of the two remaining players is your last partner. I don't see how that partnership doesn't make sense- I do think the arguments for Yos and Balam being scum don't make sense. I mean, you attacked Copper for a while, but you were happy enough to jump off to force a claim out of Yos. I don't see any interactions there that say 'Obviously not a bus' to me.

Vote: Copper

since Balam's on board.

Wait, so you see how PC's attack on Yos protected Copper, but you don't see how Balam and Yos conspired to get FD lynched when Yos was nearly yesterday's target? How can you not see that at all? That is completely unfathomable.

PC, Copper, FES, need more input from you three on your suspicions right now.

[Mastermate]

(Equinox)

I am not quoting anything. Reread the fucking thread if you care that much. Though the fact that you felt the need to ask me to quote those at all tells me you haven't been reading anyway.

So basically you can't prove that you breadcrumbed your result on FD so you rage instead? Nice.

Lord Fonzi, I'm pretty sure now that Mastermate is scum here. I cannot see town pushing these kinds of arguments. Look at Mastermate's plan and tell me how that isn't trying to drive the protection away from DaSpotthatkillsu; their thing about how they "had to mention protection lest [they] get attacked" is a load of crock. I believe YosFlavouredCayke to be town (see setup speculation), and I trust their read of Frogito Ergo Sum; therefore, the team would be {Copper, Mastermate, Profane Confusion}.

Well, I was right about Unicorn Brethren being scum. Go figure. You lot should have listened to us on Day 3.

Okay, I probably shouldn't flood the thread trying to feed the troll. I have nothing else to say, anyway; the 63 pages of game can speak for themselves, I think.

Lawl, so apparently telling the doctor to protect DaSpot is driving protection *away* from them? Lmfao...

[Mastermate]

EBWOP: I like how Balam "trusts" YosCayke's read on FES in order to avoid having to make a read of their own. Additionally, love how they completely fail to mention having any read on Fonzi, somehow managing to mention their read on every other player left in the game except them.

Wait, so you see how PC's attack on Yos protected Copper, but you don't see how Balam and Yos conspired to get FD lynched when Yos was nearly yesterday's target? How can you not see that at all? That is completely unfathomable.

What is completely unfathomable is your failure to see how little sense Yos and Balam as scum make, and how totally unbalanced having only one power role would be.

13 players with 1 or 2 power roles on each side isn't terribly unbalanced. The first post of the signup thread led me to believe it'd be light on power roles anyway, so it's not surprising either.

It's a theme game just how complex is this game going to be?

No fancy flavour, roles or rules, just good old fashioned mafia with a friend.

I'd even go so far as to posit that perhaps jailkeeper is outside that scope. It's entirely possible that it's not, but it certainly helps convince me that I'm right about this.

[Mastermate]

Point #2: Mafia Balam set up Mafia YosCayke's roleclaim in advance because they are scum together and planned it out.

- Don't make the mistake of thinking these guys don't have it in them to plan ahead. Breadcrumbing a fakeclaim in advance is par for the course, and I'd expect nothing less from Yos2.

So, let me get this streight. Your theory is this:

1. Balam breadcrumbed multiple times the I was a jailkeeper, breadcrumbs that no one picked up on (including me) but are obvious in retrospect.

2. Balam forced me to claim, threating to hammer me at lynch -1 if I didn't claim. Note that without the threat of Balam's vote, there would have been no need for me to claim at this point.

Balam forcing you to claim is what saved you from being lynched. Otherwise you would be dead.

3. I refused to do so for 24 hours. At any point during this time, I could have been hammered without claiming at all, completly ruining this supposed "gambit".

4. 24 hours later, once I got a response from Incognito, I claimed jailkeeper.

5. Balam claimed roleclop, pointed out his breadcrumb, and claimed Fate was a vanilla townie (correctly).

6. He was so sure of that, that when Fate decided to pick up the idiot ball and claim cop, Balam's response was "WE ARE EITHER GOING TO LYNCH ME TODAY, OR LYNCH FATE" with zero hesitation.

And you really think that the most likely theory is that Balam and me set up an elaborate jailkeeper fake claim, which I then refused to give while staying at lynch -1 under threat of hammer for 24 hours, and then that Balam blindly guessed that Fate was a vanilla townie with no role knowlege, and was so sure of that he was willing and eager to set up a 1v1 lynch situation with Fate?

That's a more probably theory then, say, the theory that Balam is telling the truth?

Yup, cuz it's exactly the type of gambit I would do if I was scum.

Point #4: Even after we breadcrumbed a doctor role at the end of the day yesterday, YosCayke supposedly blocked us anyway.

- That pretty much seals them being scum at this point. Scum YosCayke would block us so they could kill DaSpot without problems, but town YosCayke would not have reason to target us.

...

That was supposed to be a doctor breadcrumb? How the hell does that make any sense? This comment:

YosFlavouredCayke, you are NOT to target DaSpot tonight. Balam, same thing. We trust DaSpot's claim more than either of your claims, since Copper has made valid points about the potential scum link between you two.

You ordered me to not protect Spot. Looked to me like you were trying to find out if I was going to target Spot, in order to figure out if you could kill him or not, and/or trying to stop me from targeting spot. That was one of the biggest scumtells I saw from your hydra yesterday.

Since it was obvious that you weren't actually a jailkeeper, that's not at all what I was doing. I told you not to target DaSpot because otherwise he would not be able to get a result on one of you. I breadcrumbed doctor by saying that he should get protection from a doctor. I was very careful to try and phrase it in a way that didn't give away whether or not we were the doctor. I think you picked up on it and roleblocked us so you could kill Daspot.

Point #5: Balam only breadcrumbed YosCayke's roleclaim.

- I don't believe they are a rolecop at all, much less a town one. They claimed to have a result on FD, but didn't even breadcrumb it, even after taking all the trouble to breadcrumb YosCayke's.

Why would you breadcrumb a vanilla result? Now you're just being silly.

Already answered that question.

With someone as high profile as FD being under suspicion all game, any sane power role would have breadcrumbed that result so they couldn't fake claim later in the game.

Edit for new post:

Ok so if I am correct YosFlavouredScum and BalamScum have voted Copper, as well as LordFonzi? That pretty much solidifies the three of them as scum. Here's to hoping FES and PC see through their ruse and don't make the mistake of ending the game.

[Mastermate]

Lawl. Where did we claim to be a doctor? Scummy mcscum scum is a bit quick on the draw there.

[Mastermate]

LoL. We're not the doctor, but that still doesn't explain why you roleblocked us after we breadcrumbed it.

Regardless, I'm not going to keep wasting everyone's time arguing back and forth with the two of you. YosCayke and Balam don't need to be convinced that they are scum, they already know they are, and at this point it's fairly certain that Fonzi is, too. So that means the rest of you are townies. Copper, PC, FES, what hasn't been addressed that you feel we should fill in about our case against the mafia?

[Mastermate]

GG. Can't believe you guys got snowed that badly.

[Mastermate]

Oh man, we really screwed the pooch yesterday. I (we) owe an apology to Balam and YosCayke for being completely retarded. Tunnel vision is a bitch, and let it never be said that I don't get impressed by my own cleverness at times. Unfortunately, I pushed this case on my better half right after he hammered FD, and although he agreed with me (and approved of our line of voting/questioning), I tended to overrule any potential wrenches he brought up, like the "one town power role balance" that was also mentioned in thread. So while our hydra was in agreement about its actions then and is now as well, I need to take responsibility for my stupidity at this point. I'm going to address a few basic points for today before handing things over to my other head, who obviously has a better grasp on this game.

1) Profane Confusion is most likely scum, but since I was completely convinced of Yos/Balam yesterday, I don't trust myself to review the evidence against them and come to a reasonable conclusion.

2) Fonzi or FES is the third scum, but we don't know which it is yet. The only evidence I can offer at this point is that PC was willing to posit that we are definitely scum (lining up the town lynch that will definitely lose us the game), whereas they were unwilling to point a strong finger at either FES or Fonzi specifically. Unfortunately, it's not a strong defense, considering that I am basically saying the same thing in this post.

3) I am utterly confused by the fact that the scum did not jump on the chance to end the game yesterday. I know it looks bad for me today and that helps them in the long run, but honestly it would have been terribly easy for them to simply lynch YosCayke, since our town vote made it impossible for any scum to be lynched yesterday without help from the bus. Maybe they were paranoid about timing and didn't think they'd all be around to place votes before we came to our senses and unvoted YosCayke, I dunno. I don't have a good explanation at this point.

4) I'd like to see everyone (including ourselves) offer solid arguments about why other players in this game *could* be scum. I think that's the only way we're going to cut through this mess at this point. However, I'd like to have YosCayke save their arguments for last, since they are the most likely town of all of us. It will be beneficial to them to see everyone have to put forth reasoning without being able to copy off themselves. Personally I'd like to see this done in a round robin manner, where each hydra posts arguments against one other hydra at a time, so that each of us has to put forth reasoning against someone before anyone else does it. I suggest that YosCayke decide the ordering for this. The benefits of this plan are similar to a properly executed mass claim (which, for the record, we completely failed at yesterday).

[Mastermate]

Yesterday, Mastermate voted me.

After he voted me, everyone else in the game posted.

I was not quicklynched.

That means that either he is scum, or I am scum. Period. There is no other possibility.

Vote:Matermate

I'm trying really hard not to believe this line of reasoning is true. The question here is whether Yos or Cayke made this post, because I *know* Yos has played in enough games at this point to know that there have been plenty of instances where scum failed to capitalize on a potential quicklynch, and that it's suboptimal to rush into lynching that person the next day. On the other hand, re: PC, I'm having a hard time coming to grips with the possibility of a scum jailkeeper. My argument yesterday was predicated on the conclusion that YosCayke was a roleblocker, but Balam's confirmed town death confirms that they are indeed a jailkeeper. The only thing I am left to question at this point is why the scum killed Balam and left YosCayke alive, since YosCayke's ability is a huge danger to the scum at night. Still, I see two possibilities:

1) Scum roleblocked YosCayke and killed Balam because they were afraid their roleblocker would be found out by Balam.

2) YosCayke is a scum jailkeeper and there is no other roleblocker, they blocked Balam yesterday and killed DaSpot, and then killed Balam last night.

I think #1 is far more likely than #2, but that conclusion is predicated on the assumption that it was Cayke that just voted me.

[Mastermate]

Lovely. Suppose that settles that. Fun Game, shame the speed of the last two days meant I wasn't able to participate much (Primate).

[Mastermate]

I still have no idea if YosCayke is scum or just snowed themselves with stupidity.

GG scum.

[Mastermate]

(Primate)

My view on it going into d4 was that Yos and Balam as scumbuddies was probable. However, the second that we had the massclaim come down the way it did we should have dropped that opinion as impossible and moved onto realistic targets. I did bring this up with MoS in aim but I think he'd wandered off somewhere at that point and the next time I saw the thread there'd been a lynch.

[Mastermate]

Before Yos, definitely, that was a mistake. Which side of the claims balam goes depends entirely of whether you think he's scummy or not and who are the people who need to be confirmed, him or the rest of the town.

I have no objection to stopping a popcorn claim that we never agreed to in the first place and would have objected to if we had been there. Town shouldn't have done it like that and someone needed to stop it so yos could claim results.

[Mastermate]

That'd work if Yos wasn't outside the popcorn process as an already claimed individual.

[Mastermate]

Oh, wait, with the balam thing, I get what you're saying now. Yep, you're right, sorry.