A Storm of Swords - Lay your swords down!
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Wrong. You are not keeping anything from happening by raising yourself. If we wanted to raise somebody else, we could do so whether you were raising yourself, someone else, or no one. Your job in this game is to convince other people that certain players are town or scum, and a raise of yourself because "you trust yourself and nobody else" doesn't help anyone. Let me put it this way: Do you lynch vote exclusively to see the person you vote for lynched?GreyICE wrote:I am playing the actual game. I am trying to help the town win by keeping the powers out of the hands of players I don't trust. At the moment that's, well... everyone.
If no, then you shouldn't raise vote exclusively to see the person you raise vote for raised.
If yes, you've got serious problems.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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And yet the very fact that you know this statistic tells us that scum could easily have seen this and decided to self-raise because "that's what town does".I went back to Clash of Kings and did a quick survey. The Day 1 Raise there had 26 players available. For some ungodly reason Unsight never raised. That leaves 25 who actually raised that day.
10 made their first raise themselves.
15 made their first raise another.
Of the 10 who first raised themselves 3 were scum. Of the 15 who first raised another 6 were scum. So a 30% rate on self-raises and 40% rate on non-self raises. Keep in mind this is a brief skim just looking at the first raise vote. Some chose to hold onto their own first raise for a significant amount of time. I’m sure looking at post 1 to 3 first raises versus later first raises might provide even more info. But I’m not going to bother with that now since the rose is off the bloom as it were.
So yes, waiting patiently would have given us some information to mine down the line. But you guys had to go and ruin it. Thanks.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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"Less likely" doesn't really matter. Let me sum it up:Enter WIFOM. And those who didn’t play the first game are less likely to know the history and thus aren’t going to be influenced by that knowledge.
Let me ask you dana – did you know this statistic? You played in the first game.
1) Some people are less likely to even know about the first game, but we don't know which ones do know.
2) Non-self-raisers (based on the first game) APPEAR to be less likely town than self-raisers, but we don't know which ones of the non-self raisers are maf.
Add in the fact that many of the people here DID play in the first one, and your theory is shot.
Yes, I did know this general trend, though I didn't know the actual statistic. I was maf in the first one and didn't self-raise, because I genuinely thought it was stupid.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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All I'm saying is, I noticed that some scum other than me didn't self-raise after the game was over, even though there weren't as many non-self-raisers. I may not have known for sure that it was a higher percentage, but I would have guessed it. Why does this matter, anyway? It's obvious that self-raising doesn't prove anything in this game and that, therefore, nobody should be doing it.Okay, I played in the last one, and I'm calling you on this. Are you honestly saying that any point during or after the game, you'd thought, "Gee, it's funny that a disproportionate number of scum are raising people others than themselves"? Even though MacavityLock and xvart, two of your three scumbuddies, both self-raised at first?
I like GreyICE's argument that the statistical difference is negligible, but not yours that scum would be aware of the trend. Since the "trend" is only noticeable if you mathematically calculate the percentages, I really don't like you saying, "Oh, sure. Yeah. I totally noticed it was a trend all along."
@chesskid
<3 you too, but there's no way much of anybody is ever going to raise me. Better to raise DGB, imo.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Where did I go?DrippingGoofball wrote:One of these players is scum:
Hasdgfas, zoraster, Twilight Sparkle, Mikujin
Town:
DGB
Shadow
GreyICE - reluctantly.
Benmage - no scum in his right mind would come right out and suggest we mow down a dozen VIs to make up for the scum NK'ing our best players.
Raivann - I'm going to take his word for it.
Chesskid3 - Oh, alright.
More data required:
diddin
Nexus
Benmage
MagnaOfIllusion
Zdenek
Magua
Zoraster
Twilight Sparkle
Song of ice and fire
Kast
Bunnylover
Lurkers:
Xtoxm
Feysal
Percy
Scum:
hascow
LynchMePls
Locke Lamora
xvart - just to make him nervous-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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@modIn this votecount and the last, you have had two separate lynch wagons on Mikujin.NOT ANYMORE I DON'T
@xvartI found DGB's arguments more solid and convincing. What's your issue here, anyway? This just seems like a weird buddying of Zoraster. I should try to remember that if either of you flips scum.Last edited by Eddard Stark on Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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@ DGB
Keep up that pressure.
@ xvart
This is why I'm still raising him. I would never have thought of pointing out how fake hascow's PR looks. DGB has convinced me there's something wrong there, and it's potentially the best lead the town has.
@ hascow
Don't break your "PR" yet, if you don't want to, but in your next post, post everything you're allowed to say all at once. If you're allowed to say all of it at different times, you should be able to give us the whole list.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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This one. Implies heavily that he has a townread on GreyICE, then says he likes him for lynching.xvart wrote:
Because you can have a town read on someone you don't trust to use the power, for one?diddin, 252 wrote:If you're as confident that GreyICE is town as it seems you are, why are you still raising Twilight Sparkle?
I like both diddin and GreyICE for lynching-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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I saw. But your evidence is, simply put, poor. I was making the point that you BROUGHT little to no evidence from the past, and you SAW no evidence from the present. And that is scummy.Benmage wrote:
Did you not see where I made those quotes from? I made the votes while I was catching up properly. Both were pretty much placement votes until I was caught up/found something scummier.danakillsu wrote:FoS: Benmage
Your 796/798 turnaround is incredibly scummy. Does it take just one short post from someone WHO IS NOT EVEN YOUR VOTE TARGET to change your mind?
Zoraster lynch is fine for me. And the more I read the more I got a different feel from Raiv than last game...Last game he was scum. So if its between zoraster and raiv I prefer zoraster going.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Maybe not, but that doesn't excuse you from the standpoint of anyone else. And frankly, a townie should be worried somewhat about looking scummy, because a townie who acts too scummy gets lynched, and townies shouldn't want to get lynched because it hurts their wincon. The only person who shouldn't be worried at all about looking scummy is a jester (although of course I'm not saying that's what you are).Benmage wrote:
I'm not worried about looking scummy.danakillsu wrote:And that is scummy.
Do the asterisks mean neutral?-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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What possible motivation could either of us have for lying about not realizing that?I find it hard to believe that both DGB and danakillsu, who both played in Clash, misinterpreted how the Nominate Process worked. It is essentially a carbon copy of the Day 2 Mob Action from Clash without the annoying 48 hour lockdown of the thread.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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@ Twilight Sparkle
Pretty sure you have to actually say "nominate". But I do agree that a Mikujin townflip would necessarily make me look very scummy.
@ Zdenek
I like how you had to quote my first post to "prove" that I've been posting fluff.
@ Benmage
We gave you an ability (and I don't even know why we did that). We didn't tell you that you got to rule the town. I, for one, am not going to let you choose who I can attack and lynch.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Thanks for not resorting to ad hominem.That is why you are a village idiot. A desired policy lynch. A hindrance to any team you are on. A giant sigh when viewed on a playerlist. I've given ample people for you to choose from. And I've said just for TODAY. Doing the opposite is only going to waste time. LYNCH ME if you dont like it. You are someone being voted, yet I have you on the not to be bothered with today side.
You aren't going to get anyone I've declared unlynchable today lynched anyways because most level-headed players out there will look elsewhere and be beneficial to this town. If you want to drag your feet and do nothing...go right ahead. You asked why I didn't ask you to switch your vote before. Its because you're fucking worthless. play is devoid of logic and bad.
So I am giving Setael 1 day to see what he can do.. Call me nice...there's other scum out there. Nominate Setael like I suggest and vote elsewhere. Don't be a fucking obstinate prick.
This entire quote is you telling me that I'm bad and that if I ignore you, I'm worthless. The interesting part about that is that if more people were like me, I wouldn't be worthless at all, assuming I am now. If everyone wanted to lynch someone that you didn't want them to, then sure, you could stop them the first time. But if we still wanted to lynch someone else you didn't want us to, we could do it. The fact that other players happen to agree with you on your reads has nothing to do with the matter. I'm here to help anyone who DOESN'T agree with you to lynch actual scum. And I plan to do that by proving that the person I'm voting (Mikujin's replacement) is the real scum here. I will never, in my entire time on this site, when I am town, allow anyone to separate me from my reads. What would really make me worthless would be to sheep you and the others saying Thor is scum, like Bunnylover-scum just did.
Also, don't try to make this about you. Disagreeing with you and telling you that you don't run the town does not equate to calling you scum. I'm not going to try to lynch you unless you try to save a scummy player with your ability.
But I'm glad that my stubbornness is making you angry enough to insult me, because it shows that you care. And if I wasn't able to accomplish anything, you wouldn't care.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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@ Twilight
I don't think I've seen a case from you, just you saying "if Satael is town, dana is prob-scum".
@ Benmage
Your apology is accepted if sincere, which it appears to be. But this is not chess. Your actions are not guaranteed to me, because I do not know for sure what your end goal is in this game. You may threaten to stop us from lynching a scumread if it's not one of your scumreads or null reads, but I don't know (and in fact don't think) that you would actually do it. I simply refuse to lynch someone who has a much lower chance of being scum than someone else unless it is near lynch time and I have to choose between two players. You're free to call that tunneling if it floats your boat.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Uh oh. Somebody either got overexcited or scumslipped. Last game, when I was scum, WE DIDN'T HAVE DAYTALK. I'm pretty sure everybody could have known that. Do you have reason to believe any different for this game, Benmage?Benmage wrote:
I thought I said it is from Zachs mountainous game which just recently ended. In the LG themed section..you can scroll down to find it. But the highlighted part is here:Magua wrote:
Link to this game, please.Benmage wrote:He seemed to get pretty quite after I linked his delayed reading to a KNOWN scum tactic of his.
His first post into the game:
Post time: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:30 pmThor665 wrote:Greetings all,
As noted above I (and my awesome beard) are replacing Nikanor (whose beard is, at best, acceptable). When I replace in I read the thread and will post up vague walls of commentary text. This I feel is helpful as it will 1. help establish your attitude towards me as a player and 2. will possibly remind you of something interesting that already happened.
I do promise you that this slot will never again need replacement. I'll also promise superior scumhuntng, but find that's harder to ensure. I seem to average about 7-10 pages each catching up session, so probably will manage to be caught up by the weekend sometime.
Special greetings to everyone I've played with before.
Meanwhile, his first post in his scum daychat QT is:
"I'm going to start up my usual replace in methodology in thread. Probably I can use that to lurk through a fair chunk of the rest of the day and my brief glance made it appear you're not in any immediate danger of a lynch (which is very good)."
Post time: 11-10-2010 01:24 PM ET (US)-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Oh wow. Looks like I skim-failed. It gets so hard to read when you quote a bunch in the same post like that.
Mikujin/Setael case:
After four posts, he has not ended up voting or raising and has only contributed the way he sees players acting and whether he likes it, which has nothing to do with scumhunting.
After six posts, he has done nothing else except defend his lack of vote. He has not scumhunted, but says he wants to save his vote until he has scumhunted, essentially.
ISO 7: Says DGB seems asinine, insane, and silly, but votes her for that, as if it's a scumtell. He says he doesn't think DGB is actually as unintelligent as she is acting, but calls her unintelligent 3 different ways, so that's bs.
OVERALL:
He really does two things in the entire game.
1) Refuse to actually scumhunt or do much logical debate.
2) Attack one person who is actually putting pressure on someone and attempting to scumhunt. DGB's actions as much as confirmed to all of us that hascow was town, which is something we definitely needed.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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@ Setael
My exact thoughts: It was a great attempt to rescue the failings of your predecessor. Based only on that, I would have a slight town read on you. But it still stands that your predecessor obviously had time to post something and never contributed except to attack a player essentially just because THEY were contributing.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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I was referencing the post that I skim-failed. The one where you were talking about Thor.
Yes, that's what I'm referring to.
No, not everyone does it that way. He did a commentary on the game in a way that gave none of his opinions and drew no important conclusions.
He actually did refuse to scumhunt by defending his lack of voting. It's hard to do good scumhunting without voting. A townie places his vote on a scummy player and watches the fireworks. A scum player wants to not make waves, yes, and he accomplishes this by not voting. This is because he cares too much what the others think about his votes.
This is why I say that DGB was scumhunting, or at least playing the game the way it should be played. Whether it brought results is a matter of opinion, and I can see we disagree on the matter. What you wanted DGB to do is not important to me.
I already said what I thought of what Setael has offered. Being a different player, her posts read very differently. But it would be easy to replace into a game and make a long, logical post contrasting heavily with the actions of a scummy predecessor, whether as town or scum.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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@ Benmage
It wasn't that this fake "catchup" post was wrong in and of itself. The problem is that this lame obvious stuff on the other players was as close to scumhunting or giving his reads as he got, except for with DGB, which I've already talked about. Here's a question for you: which of the following categories would you put me in?
Scum
Leaning Scum
Null
Leaning Town
Town-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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I didn't really, just wanted to know what made him think that. If he had said "oh, well, I guess I don't really know that" or something along those lines, I would have only seen it as minorly scummy. If he had started flailing, it would have been cool, but not expected. But, of course, I was mistaken anyway.Why attempt to characterize that post as a scum slip?-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Fine. Your internal consistency has earned my trust for now.Benmage wrote:
Oh, no I dont think so.. I've had you town tho since I gave my list on the playerbase.danakillsu wrote:@ Benmage
Did you reply to my request that you give your read on me in simple terms?
It remains the same. The whole time I've been calling you town and trying to implore you to use your town vote in a more beneficial way for the town.
...lol...it should've been relatively obvious.
My basis for why you are town stems from post 1016.unvote
I hope to find another lynch candidate within the week.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Because the only reason you've got right now for calling me scum is conditional.Why would I need a case?
Because I think that Benmage is probably town, and if he's a PR, then he knows what he's doing.Why did you unvote here?
Actually, answering that question made me realize that he probably wouldn't have a problem with:unnominate nominate: Setael
vote: Bunnylover-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Umm...not really. If he was a PR with a clear, he wouldn't be outing himself or his clear at this juncture, and this would be a good way of keeping us from lynching that clear. He may want another night of investigations before giving us his info. Then again, he may not be, and I might just be throwing off scum right now. Either way, I can't figure out which it is, so I'm going to trust my townread and hope to simply incapacitate my main scumread for the night while lynching my secondary scum read.What does him being a PR have to do with anything? If he had damning evidence (or clearing) there would be less "we can put so and so on the backburner" or more "we're nailing so and so, end of discussion".-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Hmm...you didn't seem to ask anything when I nominated you. I'll post a full case on you later, I don't have time right now.@Dana: Any reason for your vote?
@ Shadow
If you don't know what his reports (if he has any) have to do with who I'm choosing to lynch, even if he's not claiming, then I can't help you. I already explained how that would affect the game, and in fact, that's what I started out saying.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Say what? I said I wanted to incapacitate my main scumread for the night. Therefore I nominate Setael, Mikujin's replacement. What's the problem, again?Twilight Sparkle wrote:Miijukin is not suddenly not your main scumread nor your secondary scum read. Certainly I can understand cooperating with Benmage, but I'm not understanding how you being unable to vote for Mijukin suddenly made him two slots (or more?) less scummy.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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@ Benmage
It's too bad you don't want me voting either of my scumreads. But I have more support with lynching Bunnylover, so hopefully someone else will see the light and join me. If you can manage to convince everyone else, though, I'll have to lynch one of your chosen candidates and nominate Bunnylover instead. It's hard to accomplish much when few agree with you...-
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@ Kast
Which mistakes are you referring to? Also, you can ask anybody, I make mistakes AT LEAST as often as the next guy. Not trying to say I can never be scummy, just saying that it should be difficult for you to say whether I'm really making mistakes.
Well, out of the lynches that are available, I guess my preferred one is Zdenek. His vote and nomination both look fairly scummy to me.
unvote vote: Zdenek
unnominate nominate: Bunnylover-
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ZOMG! I THINK DANA IS WRONG SO HE MUST BE SCUM, RIGHT?LynchMePls wrote:So because Zdenek is voting and nominating YOUR town reads, he must be scum? And its so scummy that it negates the BLATANT connections that Feysal has to TWO SCUM FLIPS?
dana is scum.
Cut it out, man, you're better than that.
My read of Benmage is town, because he has given some explanation at least for voting the players he's voting. Zdenek has not contributed as much, and in fact has kind of sheeped Benmage (who I think is wrong). Scum are often willing to vote town players when other town players do the work of making them look scummy. I can give you more on Zdenek, if you really think it's necessary, but not today.LynchMePls wrote:@dana: Benmage is voting and nominating the exact same way that Zdenek is. What is your read of Benmage?-
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@ Kast
I would switch to Feysal to prevent a no lynch. Heck, I'd switch to myself (if allowed) to prevent a no lynch.
While I agree now that I've had an inordinate amount of mistakes this time, you can actually look at my scum games. I don't make more mistakes in them. Also, name a couple types of mistake that have NO scum motivation whatsoever.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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-Posting in the wrong game thread
-Messing up formatting/quote tags/hyperlinks
I didn't even know you considered these mistakes in the same sense. I don't even notice these things.
-Misattributing a quote/post that doesn't have relevance to the poster's affiliation
You believe that there ARE many quotes and posts that have no relevance to the poster's affiliation? If there aren't many, this barely ever happens.
-Mixing up a player name
I think that this (at least in my case) would be something you would say DOES have a scum motivation. It certainly has as much scum motivation as me not seeing the difference in the nomination mechanic.
Conclusion:
Pretty much every mistake most players would notice could be said to have a scum motivation if it wasn't really a mistake. You have to look at what I did to make up for my mistakes. Did I hold on ridiculously to a false notion? Did I try to vote/nominate someone even after someone else showed me how mistaken I was? No? Then put them down as mistakes and move on.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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I don't think he is scum for disagreeing with me. I think he is scum for voting town. There's a difference. Obviously, this game is based on opinion. So my townreads are not town to anyone else, necessarily. But scum is more likely to vote for town, and he's voting for town. You think I'm scum because I'm not voting for the person in this game you think is scummiEST. That's not a scumtell. If you want to call it a double standard, you can go right ahead. The fact of the matter is, it WOULD be scummy for either of them, but Benmage is already town. Zdenek is not already town, so he's scum.This is so hilarious because THIS IS EXACTLY THE THINKING YOU ARE USING, not me. Your exact explanation for your thoughts on Zdenek were that he was "voting and nominating two of my town reads". Which means YOU THINK HE IS SCUM FOR DISAGREEING WITH YOU. To boot, you confess a town read of Benmage, despite the fact that Benmage was voting and nominating THE EXACT SAME AS ZDENEK. So you have a double standard. It's ok for Benmage to vote/nominate in a way you don't like, but not Zdenek.-
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I think at this point (as I've thought all along) Feysal's pretty town. His claimed night action DOES in fact line up with town motivations, since even if scum had killed Benmage, he would have just found that scum killed Benmage.
@ LMP
So, lets find out if you have the same "double standard" that I do. Benmage just horribly messed up there, thinking that Feysal was scum because Feysal didn't watch him. That's as bad a mistake with as much of a scum motivation as I ever made. He didn't read carefully and still wanted to vote based on what he thought he saw. Is he scum too, then?-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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LynchMePls wrote:I can't believe this wagon is falling apart after that claim. WTF!?
I seriously have no idea what you are talking about.danakillsu wrote:@ LMP
So, lets find out if you have the same "double standard" that I do. Benmage just horribly messed up there, thinking that Feysal was scum because Feysal didn't watch him. That's as bad a mistake with as much of a scum motivation as I ever made. He didn't read carefully and still wanted to vote based on what he thought he saw. Is he scum too, then?Benmage wrote:Okay I had to LOOK!
Feysal wrote:
I never even considered targeting him.Raivann [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2864274#p2864274]#1497[/url] wrote:Wouldn't Benmage have been the obv. player to watch last night?
Last night I considered what kind of players I would be targeting. Would it be the townish ones, or the scummy ones, or the null reads? I decided against targeting a townish player, since the most likely outcome would be, except for learning nothing at all,was that the player had been killed and I would be no wiser.
YOU wouLD'vE caught scum!!
Yeah I think Petyr would be scum in this game.
Watched Kast???Benmage wrote:Feysal not watching someone like me (probably targeted last night) screams of a fakeclaim.
Watcher role screams of a fakeclaim.
******Didn't Faraday say he didn't like the watcher role? SO in a game twice?!?! Doubtful. Fakeclaim? Probable.
KAST!?!?!? KAST!?!?! Jesus.Benmage wrote:Meant tovote Feysalthere
Damn. I was thinking of coming in to vote Zed too just to help incriminate TS if he flipped town...damn damn damn. (reading time )
Now, I realize that Kast was actually the one saying I was scummy for my mistakes. But I took it that you agreed with that. Well, here's Benmage messing up in regard to Feysal's role, which is at least as bad as any mistake I made. Is he scum? If not, you have the same "double standard" that I supposedly have.LMP wrote:So you have a double standard. It's ok for Benmage to vote/nominate in a way you don't like, but not Zdenek.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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The fact that they are not the EXACT same thing makes no difference. Stop trying to dance around the issue. He made a mistake with possible scum motivation. I made a mistake with possible scum motivation. You come up with different conclusions for the two of us. That's as much of a double standard as what you are saying about me.LynchMePls wrote:It's not a double standard because the two things are not the same. In the instance you are applying, the two things are identical. That is you called Zdenek scummy because he was voting and nominating town-reads that you have. But Benmage, who was voting and nominating IN THE EXACT IDENTICAL WAY you think is town. It reads like you were just looking for an excuse to call Zdenek scummy.
This even implies that you agree the two things aren't the same. It wouldn't be "at least as bad" if they were the same, it would be "just as bad". The difference is that what you've done and what Benmage has done are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. So there is no double standard. Nice try though. Flail some more.danakillsu wrote:which is at least as bad as any mistake I made.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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That's fine, and I believe you, but my mistakes have come from not reading things, too.Benmage wrote:Dana I said I hadn't read but suddenly saw the post by raivann as I was about to...his watch comment obviously had me assume there was a watcher.
So yeah my mistake wasn't really misreading, because I never read it in the first place.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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So you are beginning to agree with me that TS is town, and you find out that even though I had no scum motivation for stopping his lynch, that I was right about Feysal being town. And then you proceed to vote me. Sure is haters gonna hate in here.LynchMePls wrote:TS hate is mitigated by both MOI-scum flip AND Feysal-town flip.
Vote: danakillsu
I'm not sure either of these statements are true. Why should I claim these things if it helps the scum to know the answers and doesn't help us?Magua wrote:shot someone else who didn't die which should've been your first post today if true, or shot no one which *also* should've been your first post today if true-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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Unfortunately, my play would have probably told people that anyway, minus the investigation immune part. Should I just give my role name?Kast wrote: N1 I investigated Dana and he has no role-name, meaning he is either a Goon, a VT, or investigation immune.
And NO NO NO NO NO. I AM NOT CHANGING MY VOTE BECAUSE SOMEONE TELLS ME TO TODAY. I did it yesterday, and someone got lynched that I didn't want to get lynched. Granted, the person lynched wasn't the person I switched to, but I think people were just starting to realize how scummy Setael was yesterday. My case on him is there for the reading. You don't like it. Too bad. You miss out on lynching scum.-
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danakillsu Mafia Scum
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