The Mafia with the Hydras - Game Over!

[Balam]

(Equinox)

RayFrost modkill? Meh. At WORST I figured it would be a double-force replacement for both our slots, but given the strain that would put on TBM I was reluctant to push the issue. PLUS the case can be made that we were strictly talking MD theory and talking about my drunk posting in KittyMo's Open game.

No. This is a case of game integrity. That goes above any strain on the part of the moderator. If you are going to push a case like this, you should have brought it to TheButtonmen's attention and let him make the ruling. That Open game ended a while before you made your drunken posts here; if RayFrost contacted you after that bout of drunk posting, he violated the rules and the game's integrity, and we should be modkilled.

I am calling bullshit before even hearing from RayFrost about this, and you can go fuck yourself for making such a low-brow attack.

Equinox when are you going to flip Town Role Cop? We're abuot to be lynched.

You're obviously trying to get me lynched first, so of course I'm going to flip if your scum gambit works out.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

I'd like to know when this conversation occurred, Final Destination. RayFrost did have a discussion with me about Open 294, but his anger was only right after I dropped the hammer in that game, which was long before you made your drunk posts here. RayFrost would know better than to contact you after you were drunk in this game because that would clearly have affected this game.

I don't see how you can call it a low blow from us. If anything, we are trying to continue playing the game without a modkill. To me, that seems like the more honorable course of option.

Allowing us to play this game when we supposedly have outside information is not honorable; it is ruining the game.

This is disgraceful.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Final Destination should be the one doing that, along with a complete time-stamped log of Fate's and RayFrost's discussion.

Preview edit: That seals the deal, I guess. Good luck tomorrow, town, as I don't think scum will suffer leaving us alive.

Well, that's the hammer. We certainly didn't mean any harm, and maintain that the conversation was the legitimate use of meta. And, even if you think we're "disgraceful" or whatnot, I hope everyone still recognizes that we've successfully called the team and this can be pulled out as a town win.

I swear to God that if you flip anything with the word "town" in it, I will drag your body from the noose and lynch it again.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

The timing of that conversation has game relevance, Fate. If he had any rage to level at you for your behavior in Open 294, the only time he would have done it was immediately following the end of that game; I can tell you that much from what I've discussed with him. At no time in the QuickTopic or in any AIM conversations with me did RayFrost mention having a conversation with you about drunkposting after your drunkposting in this game. If that is what happened, RayFrost broke the rules, plain and simple, because that discussion affected this game.

I am done discussing this because every time I see AlmasterGM or Fate trying to defend that line of attack, I feel like becoming violent. Bring this up with the moderator. The only other person who is going to speak on this matter is RayFrost, and that would be to defend himself.

I don't save my AIM logs, you'll just have to take it on my honor as a Mafia player with over 50 games on this site that we did not talk about this game.

How fucking convenient.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

We aren't scum. If you're town, you've just lost the game for us.

Fate, I never thought you were capable of doing that until you posted the accusation. I had respect for you as a scum hunter, even if your play style was more abrasive than most. Unfortunately, if it was your word against RayFrost's, I would take RayFrost's because we have discussed at length about Open 294, The Mafia with the Hydras, and your drunk posting, and RayFrost never mentioned this AIM conversation to me. I strongly believe he would have; he has talked to me about replacing out of games due to accidentally coming across information, so I know what to expect from RayFrost. Therefore, I am calling you on your bullshit.

I really should not be posting anymore, but I felt this needed to be said. Now I'm out; there are other games that don't make me want to stab things by just looking at it.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

This is going to be long rambling post, but please bear with me.

First off, I owe an apology to AlmasterGM and Fate for my conduct and the massive and undeserved amount of disrespect I displayed toward them yesterday. I know this is no excuse, but I got carried away; I should have taken a moment to think about the implications of what I was saying and, above all, I should have waited to get all of the facts before leveling the accusations that I did. I learned later, after the thread was locked, that RayFrost did indeed approach Fate about his drunk posting, though RayFrost tells me that this occurred well before the drunken activity in this game. Fate made an honest mistake, and I gave him and AlmasterGM hell for it. For that, I apologize.

In my defense, the only thing I took issue with was the implication that this conversation occurred after Fate's drunk posting in this game. Since this discussion seems to have occurred before then, using that for meta is fine since it's clear that it's not related to this game. Whether or not the application of that meta is correct, I will have to leave to the rest of you because we are in no position to make a statement there either way.

Something else I will say is that the gambit was terrible. We had a result on you, and you made a town-on-town fight into a 1:1 that is now about to lose us the game. I wish I could say, "Don't do that again," but knowing it's you two, that would be useless. I'll acknowledge that my play in this hydra has been subpar and that I'd have a hand in town's defeat if we lose, but this gambit played a major part in that, too, and that's on you.

To address the game:

We targeted Copper on Night 3, and we were unable to get a result.

We chose Copper because of the slip Final Destination pointed out from their post 1426. Copper is a thorough hydra; RayFrost and I know this from experience, and you've seen their behavior in this thread. Final Destination's counterclaim was a major point of contention, yet Copper named only three power roles: jailkeeper, role cop, tracker. What that tells me is that Copper believed our results on Final Destination, despite questioning our claim and taking Final Destination's side.

I doubt YosFlavouredCayke is a mafia jailkeeper. As Copper mentioned previously, there has been no evidence thus far of a killing power for YosFlavouredCayke-scum to counter, and I feel that's a plausible explanation. I could go collect data later on setups using a scum jailkeeper to verify, but I'm not going to do that until I know my efforts won't be wasted (read below).

FoS: YosFlavouredCayke

DaSpotthatkillsu is dead. There's something about Mastermate's post that I will talk about in my next post, but setup speculation in conjunction with NK analysis should have made apparent that there could not have been a doctor with a town-aligned jailkeeper, and Mastermate possibly made an error in directing YosFlavouredCayke away in favor of getting a result from DaSpotthatkillsu. The obvious protection target tonight should have been DaSpotthatkillsu, yet between Mastermate and YosFlavouredCayke, something went wrong. That "something" was obviously not a roleblocker, since we got roleblocked (or maybe even jailkept, who the hell knows).

Forgive me for not having any other reads. I worked out possible teams for Final Destination-scum and YosFlavouredCayke-scum on Day 3, and both of those have been dashed on the rocks. I put in the bare minimum last night to figure out a target, and that was it. Thinking about this game hurt and made me feel like crap, and I didn't want to think about it any more than was absolutely necessary. Further, I didn't want to put in a ton of effort only to find out we'd gotten quick-lynched.

This roleblock is giving me some inspiration, you scumbags. Ahahahaha.

I have a request. If you have any lingering doubts about us at all, please hold your votes. I will wait a couple of days, and then I will tear into this thread like there is no tomorrow. I may have a renewed sense of purpose in this game, but I'm actually pretty busy with real-life stuff at the moment, and I'd like to know that if I'm going to spend upwards of 50 hours on this thread rereading it, my efforts will not be wasted by some derp thinking we're confirmed scum.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Hmm... On second thought, I'd like to hear excuses from both Mastermate and YosFlavouredCayke before I slam down an analysis. Naturalistic observation, go.

By the way, anything I post for the next few days or so is pure Equinox. AGar has been out of the hydra and won't return until Wednesday. If RayFrost has something to say, he'll probably just post it himself.

Preview edit: I wrote that at the end of the day, pretty much immediately after the spat with Final Destination. Mastermate claimed we were scum if Final Destination flipped town, and the environment at the time was "1 of Balam or Final Destination is scum, now die" even after the gambit was revealed.

Preview edit the second: Oh, yippee, the thing I couldn't get last night. I can't wait.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Uh, if the strikes didn't make this fact obvious enough, I made edits in light of new information I got overnight. >_>

The paragraph following the FoS, I wrote immediately after TheButtonmen opened the thread and I opened the result PM.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Lynch YosFlavouredCayke for being an obvious mafia roleblocker

X

Who is the third mafia, by the way? Yes, this third read is important.

So, I took a shot and blocked mastermate.

You admit yourself that you weren't sure who was scum, yet you passed up the chance to protect the person who was nearly guaranteed to be killed?

---

Okay, there's something I'm confused about. YosFlavouredCayke, as jailkeeper, is the protective role, yet scum went ahead and blocked the role cop, as if they knew DaSpotthatkillsu was not going to be protected.

Yeah, something's up here. Copper's comment about the setup and scum jailkeepers bug me, though; looks like I'll be doing some digging through setups to see if this has been done before.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Something just occurred to me.

I was pushing Copper and Profane Confusion yesterday. Granted, that was in conjunction with Final Destination-scum, but I did pretty much grant passes to DaSpotthatkillsu, Lord Fonzi, and Mastermate. Frogito Ergo Sum wasn't tracked anywhere, so that wasn't going to be much of a lead anyway.

I think role cops investigate mafia goons as vanilla, so if my likely target were vanilla, the scum could have just let me run with it... yet I got stopped instead of, say, YosFlavouredCayke (assuming they're town).

I'll sleep on this, I suppose.

Preview edit:

Question: why wouldn't this make you lean towards Yos being scum here?

Setup. It's becoming apparent now that there's no shooting power for a mafia jailkeeper to counter. (As much as I suspect Copper, their explanation did make sense.) There's more reason for that jailkeeper to be on the town side. That said, I probably should collect data to see if there's been precedent for this sort of thing before.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

BRING IT, BABY.

Before I start launching plaintains, I'm going to talk about setups. I did a search for "jailkeeper" in the phpBB3 game forums, and I've learned quite a bit about interesting setups. First and foremost is that every instance of a mafia-aligned, neutral-aligned, or self-aligned^(!) jailkeeper was accompanied by some killing power on an opposing side. Theoretically speaking, it makes no sense to have a jailkeeper for shits and giggles, but I figured I might as well get evidence to back that up. I've kept an incomplete list saved in drafts in case some lazybutt wants to call me out on this. (It's incomplete because I stopped taking notes halfway.)

Oh, yeah, I'm not going to search the archives. You do that if you don't believe me.

Let's start, then. First, I have a complaint from AGar: Mastermate went into this crusade about {mafia role cop, mafia roleblocker} without thinking about how weird that setup would be against {town tracker}. Yeah, sure, we've got the rest of the mass claim to do, but

Mastermate is already attacking

. Bold move, misters.

Preview edit:

13 players, 3 scum (at least 1 with power), at least 1 town power role.

Wait, are you seriously arguing that I'm actually a mafia goon who just magically knew that Final Destination was vanilla despite picking up power role breadcrumbs from them? That's kind of hilarious.

Okay, let's wade through that very nice-looking wall with the giant words. I'm lazy and don't want to quote stripe, so here's a handy list of what I think of Mastermate's arguments.

Point #1: The part about there being no scum jailkeeper is probably true with evidence pointing that way, but YosFlavouredCayke is actually a jailkeeper. True story.
Point #2: Oh, we totally planned on joint-claiming role cop and jailkeeper just when we could have just lynched Final Destination with much less dirt on our hands. "But I wouldn't put it past Yosarian2!" What do they say about conspiracy theories, again?
Point #3: Ooh, chain lynches, I

love

chain lynches. Yeah, no.
Point #4: I'll admit that I'm worried about YosFlavouredCayke for this reason, but now that you've mentioned it, there's another problem. You didn't have to actually crumb doctor; YosFlavouredCayke could have easily made the argument that they got roleblocked and then DaSpotthatkillsu died, all without you trying to draw protects away from the bullseye. Before you claim that we planned this argument/scheme out ahead of time, think about this: If we're a scum team, we're in dire straits, and we'd be much better off immediately cross-bussing each other with roleblock results.
Point #5: AGar crumbed the result on Final Destination. However, the point could be made that we waited until Night 2 to crumb a result on YosFlavouredCayke. We're still town role cop. If you want to go wage war about who breadcrumbed more, I point you to Final Destination. Yep.
Point #6: I already explained this. Clearly, you did not even read my post. Way to scum hunt.
Point #7: LOL I DON'T KNOW WHO THE LAST SCUM IS SO I'MMA PLAY IT OFF

tl;dr - No.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say that Mastermate is probably scum so eager to get their prime mislynch that they forgot to think about why that pairing would make even the most remote amount of sense.

Yeah, I just called YosFlavouredCayke town. Their action last night does not make sense to me, but I'm having

a lot

of trouble believing that they're a mafia jailkeeper when there's been no evidence of either a serial killer or a vigilante... or even anything to counter it, apart from the funny-looking role cop. "Funny-looking role cop" is not a convincing argument.

Preview edit: ...I got ninja'd by walls. ._.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

I'm not even sure we necessarily even need to be dealing with 3 scum here.

We are. TheButtonmen didn't set a deadline. LyLo tell for some mods, and deadline isn't something one forgets to set, I don't think.

Forget the fact that I know I'm a town power role and that scum need to somehow balance that.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Lmao, Balam...you are still so desperate to push the jailkepper myth. We don't believe YosCayke is a scum jailkeeper anyway, so why are you so desperate to convince us that it's not possible?

"We can't refute anything, so we'll just sit here, alone, and pretend that we can't be convinced at all because we won't get our mislynch otherwise."

Cool story.

Lord Fonzi and YosFlavouredCayke, how would you two feel about lynching Mastermate? I'm down for a Copper lynch, too, since they scum-slipped that Final Destination was actually vanilla.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

Vote: Copper

[Balam]

(Equinox)

My last word on this subject:

I learned later, after the thread was locked, that RayFrost did indeed approach Fate about his drunk posting, though RayFrost tells me that this occurred well before the drunken activity in this game. Fate made an honest mistake, and I gave him and AlmasterGM hell for it. For that, I apologize.

Also, before you continue pushing the absolute "never happened," note my language all day yesterday. I said that the conversation

did not happen after Fate's drunk posting in this game

, since that was the allegation and that was potentially compromising to the game's integrity. Whether or not any conversation happened before that fact was not of my concern, since Fate and RayFrost are free to communicate as they wish if it's not relevant to this game.

I'm not taking offense at Mastermate's accusation that I'd lie about that to save our collective skins, but it does annoy me that such a shitty argument is being made at all. Desperate times call for desperate measures, I suppose.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

I am not quoting anything. Reread the fucking thread if you care that much. Though the fact that you felt the need to ask me to quote those at all tells me you haven't been reading anyway.

Lord Fonzi, I'm pretty sure now that Mastermate is scum here. I cannot see town pushing these kinds of arguments. Look at Mastermate's plan and tell me how that isn't trying to drive the protection away from DaSpotthatkillsu; their thing about how they "had to mention protection lest [they] get attacked" is a load of crock. I believe YosFlavouredCayke to be town (see setup speculation), and I trust their read of Frogito Ergo Sum; therefore, the team would be {Copper, Mastermate, Profane Confusion}.

Well, I was right about Unicorn Brethren being scum. Go figure. You lot should have listened to us on Day 3.

Okay, I probably shouldn't flood the thread trying to feed the troll. I have nothing else to say, anyway; the 63 pages of game can speak for themselves, I think.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

If Copper flips town, I am going to eat a lot more than hats.

Scum, block us again, please; I rather enjoyed your visit last night. Mmm.

[Balam]

(Equinox)

IT'S USELESS! IT'S ALL USELESS!