Battle for Olympus - Game Over!

[Axelrod]

Vote: Gemini

Let the smiting of evil Hydras begin!

[Axelrod]

Oh yes, I can tell right now that playing with chesskid is going to be a dream come true for me. Declaring people obv. Town/Scum after 1 post. Fake Day-kills. Sunny attitude. This shall indeed be fun.

[Axelrod]

On MoI, I imagine he's telling the truth when he says he can get lynched at L-1 because, why would you lie about that? But I don't understand where this has some people declaring him Town, or even suggesting that he be treated as "confirmed" Town. Like, are you under the impression that a scum couldn't have a L-1 restriction on him? Pro-tip: they can.

I'm not holding it against him either. It's pretty much null.

[Axelrod]

@MOI: No. I DO know that my role is in accord with the answers that I gave, and we could potentially catch unknowledgable scum by making people claim their survey when they claim their role. I don't see any downside other than it would make it harder for town to make gambits.

My role is in accord with the answers I gave. My powers, however, are only loosely related to my name, and basically could have been justified on almost anyone for almost any reason.

If that trend follows, then there might not be a huge amount of risk in "Name" claiming. And it forces the scum to lie or use up whatever fake claims they have been given, which is something. Potential downside is if (1) there are scum roles that get advantaged by knowing someone's role-name (2) possibility that the bigger names have the best powers and also then become high profile targets (3) if all the scum have prefect safe claims, we've not actually accomplished much.

[Axelrod]

I would not be surprised, and would expect, the Mod to give the scum at least some safe claims. What's more up in the air is whether he'd give them

all

safe claims. Seems like most of the time I see this, the Mod has given the scum 2-3 "safe-claims" and the others end up having to fend for themselves.

If anyone knows the ways these particular mods have handled this issus in the past that might answer the question right there.

[Axelrod]

You need to clarify what you are saying here. Who is the scum member being sacrificed and who are the easily impressed Townies?

Scum member would be you. Easily impressed townie would be any one who's blindly following you due to your supposed confiremd town status.

Well, you certainly backed off your "I think MoL is Town" statment pretty quick, didn't you. Just because he's attacking you now?

[Axelrod]

Did I say "would be the scum member" or did I say "is the scum member". If it is in deed the first (O_o it is!), what are you basing your conclusion on.

I didn't read what you were saying right (probably because it doesn't make a lot of sense).

If I now understand correctly, you were originally attacking Ranger of the North, who said that MoI could still be scum with his claim. And you were basically saying "No he couldn't, because it would be stupid for scum to "sacrifice" one of their members that way (by making a claim like MoI made), for the marginal gain of - getting some people to think he was Town?

Is that right?

[Axelrod]

Oh, and

small FoS: Axelrod

. I'll elaborate on this later on. It's weak now, more like a small gut feeling. But I want to leave this here noted.

Why wait! I won't feel like I'm really playing until someone says they don't like something I've said.

[Axelrod]

Let's not lynch anyone just yet, 'kay?

It's not like we just started yesterday or anything. There is nothing overtly wrong with that claim. So, let's take it slow.

SD: can you please say why you refuse to claim superpower?

[Axelrod]

I'd kind of like to know just how sure Agar is too. For future reference an all. Says it's role-related, which is fine, but how sure?

[Axelrod]

Ok I just missed the last page. So, pretty sure then.

[Axelrod]

I was on page 8 when I asked that question. Your answer was on p9. Sorry dude.

[Axelrod]

THATS NOT ROLEFISHING

HE'S TRYING TO STOP A LYNCH OF OBVSCUm
IF HE'S NOT 100% ON NOT SCUM SD
WE'RE LYNCHING HIS OBVSCUM ASS

unvote, Vote: Chesskid

He's being scummier than usual, and trying too hard to lead. Plus if AGar is telling the truth Chesskid is likely scum based on having a similar role to SD.

So you think a scum Chesskid, with a role similar to a Town SD, thinks it's a good plan to attack SD on the basis that they have similar roles?

[Axelrod]

So I just had a thought, AGar, are there any other NAMES that you know are in the game and therefore aren't scum false-claims?

This might go for everyone, actually, if your role tells you there's another role out there somewhere, as long as we accept that all Greek pantheon are Town. You had better be sure that the role is

in the game

, though, and not just referenced in some way or the other.

Not quite following this Diddin wagon atm. In my brief skim Baby Spice and Dekes said stuff that seemed worse.

Unvote

[Axelrod]

Axelrod: That is unimportant at this point in time.

Unimportant how? Seems like that would be one of the more important things we could get out in the open.

Maybe I'm missing something. Can you say what reason is there for you (or anyone) who knows that a particular role is in the game, not to say? I don't see how that negatively impacts the person who says. If they subsequently get killed, at least that information would be out there and confirmed at that point. It's almost like a Cop result (baring shenanigans of some kind).

[Axelrod]

Oh, and

small FoS: Axelrod

. I'll elaborate on this later on. It's weak now, more like a small gut feeling. But I want to leave this here noted.

Why wait! I won't feel like I'm really playing until someone says they don't like something I've said.

Why? Are you afraid we may catch you?

?

I'm asking you to go ahead and say whatever it is/was that's giving you this gut feeling. Why wait to elaborate?

[Axelrod]

Axelrod: That is unimportant at this point in time.

Unimportant how? Seems like that would be one of the more important things we could get out in the open.

Maybe I'm missing something. Can you say what reason is there for you (or anyone) who knows that a particular role is in the game, not to say? I don't see how that negatively impacts the person who says. If they subsequently get killed, at least that information would be out there and confirmed at that point. It's almost like a Cop result (baring shenanigans of some kind).

Yes, and do cops automatically claim D2 as soon as they get an innocent? No.

Are you dense?

Does no one understand what I'm saying?

This probably won't got anywhere, becauae it would be poor mod. design to tell everyone that the Greek Gods are all town and then to further tell certain people that certian other roles are definitely in the game, but given what SD already said, I thought, what the heck, might as well ask. I'm not above breaking the game if it can be done.

[Axelrod]

Quick hits:

Baby Spice - scummish
Chronopie - null
Aurous Vox - townish
AGar - townish
Shadow dancer - not a fan, but given the above I'm going town.
Snow Bunny - neutral
Iecrint - townish
CMAR - null
Dekes - scummish
Plum - eh, okay for now.
Gemini - I hate hydras. KT part seems not too bad.
Rangerofthenorth - okay
Magna - null
Gandalf - not too bad
Quadz08 - okay
Mothrax - townish
LordChronos - null
diddin - scummish
chesskid - townish, heaven help me.

I'm fine going with

Vote: Baby Spice

for now. Didn't like this remark:

Agar clears SD for the moment. Time will tell.

Didn't like her calling Dekes and then Diddin scummy without voting for either, but then almost randomly followed chesskid on someone she hadn't mentioned + she apparently typoed who she meant to vote for (which was who she thought chesskid meant, not who she thought was actually scummy?)

[Axelrod]

Axelrod: That is unimportant at this point in time.

Unimportant how? Seems like that would be one of the more important things we could get out in the open.

Maybe I'm missing something. Can you say what reason is there for you (or anyone) who knows that a particular role is in the game, not to say? I don't see how that negatively impacts the person who says. If they subsequently get killed, at least that information would be out there and confirmed at that point. It's almost like a Cop result (baring shenanigans of some kind).

It matters not right now whether or not I may or may not be able to clear another player at this or a later point in time. If you have a further line of reasoning to pursue this avenue, bring it forth. But I'm going to more than likely ignore future advances down this route by you, as you seem to have no other reason for doing it than blatant rolefishing.

Okay, 1st, you don't know what role-fishing is.

But 2nd, and more importantly, you STILL seem to be missing the point. Let me try this another way.

So far, you have said (and do please correct me if I'm wrong) that you have been mod-informed that Poseidon is in the game. That's all you've said.

SD claimed Poseidon. You are assuming, not unreasonably, that Poseidon is Town because, well, mod told us that Greek Gods are Town.

Now, this really hasn't told us much of anything about your role, has it? I don't think it has. Which is good. My ENTIRE POINT is that this is the kind of information people can give us that DOESN'T reveal anything else about their own role/abilities. And yet, it can act to "clear" people later when they claim those roles.

Let's say you had some OTHER roles that you knew were "in the game." Saying those other roles similarly doesn't say much of anything about your role/abilities. What it does is get this info out there in the event you DIE. You don't need to wait until someone claims a role that you know is in the game. You could do it NOW. The effect is the same, and there's no risk of you dying and taking said info to the grave with you.

You know what, forget it. I don't think this is really going anywhere anyway.

[Axelrod]

But even in the list he only calls her "scummish", so he can back out of it later. Also, now that SD is no longer confirmed, I'm torn between Axel and him.

WHAT TO DO WHAT TO DO

Anyone who has a "firm" opinion at this stage of the game without some secret role-based knowledge is a moron.

Just sayin'.

I mean it with all due respect. I know it's cool and trendy to declare people obv-scum based on virtually nothing. And I know that most people don't actually, in fact, mean that they know such and such a person is scum when they say it - and will later say they were doing it for "reads" or whatever. But it is a pet peeve of mine and annoys me when other people do it. I'll say I think someone's scum when I think it, and I'll rarely express certainty unless I'm certain. For now, I'm just more or less leaning one way or the other, or not at all.

The Mod. correction seems to leave open at least the possibility that a Greek God is a SK in this game, or otherwise neutral, but still not Mafia. I don't want to mod-game whether they made that correction because the Town was making a mistake based on the original rule-set, or because they just didn't want people getting confirmed viz name. So basically, SD could be anti-town in some way, but still seems he can't be Mafia and I'm not really interested in voting someone who can't be Mafia without more.

[Axelrod]

Why do you say he can't be mafia?

And can you show me some examples of you doing this in other games, Axel?

I'm still going by the Mod stmt that the Mafia is all non-Greek pantheon + Poseidon claim + AGar confirming Poseidon is in the game. So, not Mafia. But possibly some neutral/other scum.

As to the other I probably could. I know it's an opinion I've expressed before. But are you actually saying it means anything to you. I'd rather not waste my time looking through my old games.

[Axelrod]

To Gandalf: This is from A Clash of Kings Mafia, which was the last game I played here. A couple of people in this game were also in that game.

Axelrod's ranting

Currently I'm waiting for Baby Spice to show back up and say something. Then we'll see.

I like how Quadz has been posting recently. And the Hydra is doing a pretty good job of at least looking like they're conferring about people outside the game - which a scum Hydra could do, but it's trickier to completely fake outside-the-thread conversations about how scummy someone is.

[Axelrod]

Not tremendously impressed with Baby's return post.

Baby, can you explain what exactly about Lord Chronos' posts makes you feel he's the best vote for you atm? All you've done is agree with Chesskid, who hadn't even said what he didn't like about Lord Chronos.

[Axelrod]

So, that wasn't exactly an answer to the question....

[Axelrod]

Baby, I asked you a direct question which you completely ignored (or missed?) I wasn't asking about MoI, I was asking about your original reasons for voting for LC, which you never specified - you just barned Chesskid.

Now you've said this:

But to get onto LC , one actual content post in sixteen. Was, and still is, worthy of pressure, but def scum first.

So, is that it? Basically, you didn't think he was posting any "content?"

This is slightly different, incidentally, from saying someone's posts are scummy. It's more like calling him a lurker. It also seems like you made this determination fairly early on (if we are to believe you actually made this determination independently and weren't just barning).

Which 1 post would you say was the one that had the actual content?

[Axelrod]

I'm fine with someone claiming at L-2.

If Baby doesn't want to claim, I think she had best do some persuasive persuading that someone else is a better target and do it soon.

[Axelrod]

I kinda like the "rainbow" claim. To the point where I did quick search for "goddess of rainbows" to see if there were any

other

rainbow goddesses from non-greek pantheons who BS might actually be with Iris being the fake-claim. It was basically all Iris (with some Mayan Goddess maybe in second place).

Unvote

She doesn't strike me as the type to come up with that multi-colored claim on her own, and it's hard to imagine the Mods providing a complere fake role PM complete with colors (though I suppose it's still remotely possible)

[Axelrod]

Who was the first person in this game to mention caring about Colors in role PMs?

[Axelrod]

Unvote

Vote: BS

well let's get this mummer's farce over with then shall we?

WTF? This is bad. BS is town. This is a mislynch. And then, okay, fine, Vote BS?

So you find it only remotely possible when the last Large Theme game you played in was Clash of Kings where the Mods did just that.

Did they? Differen't mods, and this was close to a year ago, but I seem to recall that the Mods said in that game they would provide the scum with a fake claim upon request - which is not the same thing as providing a fully formatted role PM (complete with colors, and presuambly a picture) for the player to reference as their "fake" claim.

[Axelrod]

The color thing is interesting to me because I literally payed zero attention to what "color" my name was in my role PM when I got it, but Plum apparently did, and further noted that the "colors" of the dead pre-game people were different (Black and Grey?) and, what, then guessed that everyone would have different colors - or that scum might have different colors?

It's just weird how this even came up.

BS voting herself out of frustration just seems to suggest even more she's probably town. I guess I've seen scum self-vote out of desparation/frustration before, but more often that seems to come from town.

[Axelrod]

Did they? Differen't mods, and this was close to a year ago, but I seem to recall that the Mods said in that game they would provide the scum with a fake claim upon request - which is not the same thing as providing a fully formatted role PM (complete with colors, and presuambly a picture) for the player to reference as their "fake" claim.

1. Andrius and Dana have a proven history of providing full fake-claims. You don't address this at all.

Do they? I believe I was the one who asked - in this game - whether or not the Mods have a history of giving the scum false claims and people said yes, they do. But I don't remember hearing anything about how detailed the fake claims they provided to the scum were. It's one thing to give someone a fake "name" claim. Another thing to give someone a fake "ability" claim, and yet another thing to give someone a fully formatted fake role PM.

2. Even if they chose to provide it 'on request' why would you assume that the entire scum team didn't immediately request one? I know we did in Clash the second we got our role Pms. And those provided fake-claims had full formatting, flavor text, and everything else that Town role Pms had.

That was a different game with different Mods. Are you saying that I, having been in Clash of Kings, should be assuming that all mods do what those mods did? I think Clash was the first time I had

ever

seen that from Mods and I've been playing this game for a while now. And I did not recall whether or not the Mods in that game actually gave out "fully formatted" role PMs, as opposed to just giving people a fake name and/or list of abilities they could claim.

Your argument was the full-fake claim Pms is a rarity. I'm providing you with just one example. I can provide others of Mods here on site providing full-fake-claims for Mafia in Large Theme games.

Okay? Maybe it's the new thing here, but I'm saying I had not seen it before Clash.

Are you saying, bottom line, that you have no trouble at all believing that the Mods would give out a fake role PM to the scum with "Goddess of Rainbows" and even put it in multi-colors.

Why the colors? To make the claim even

more

believable? Did they anticipate that people would be talking about the "color" of their role PMs? This does not strike you as far fetched at all?

[Axelrod]

Axel, you haven't played mafia on this site recently, have you?

I've been on a 1-game-a-year pace type thing for like the last two years. So, no.

And furthermore – even if the scum don’t have full fake-pms – please answer me this:

Do you think someone with a fake role-name of Iris- Goddess of Rainbows would not include a tidbit in their claim about color after Plum SPECIFICALLY asked ShadowDancer the question when he claimed earlier in the Day? Further do you believe that a color claim of Rainbow isn't the obvious way to go?

You had a better argument going that the Mods would just have done up the whole thing fake for her. BS does not strike me as the type to come up with multi-colored role PM flavor on her own, however "obvious" it might seem to you.

[Axelrod]

Okay, I will yield to others who are adamant that these particular Mods can and would give out such detailed and fake role PMs. I'm still stuck on her self-voting, and I hate self-voting on principle. That looked like pretty genuine frustration.

Colors are variable in Town Role PMs. Therefore they would be expected to be variable in scum Role PMs and in provided scum fakeclaims. Why the colors? Because the Mods

did

anticipate that people would be talking about the color of Role PMs. I am quite quite sure that this was anticipated when preparing fakeclaims (and this doesn't make this meaningless information - it's another part of claims that can be evaluated for likelihood of being true at various gamestages).

Okay, question: if we take it as given that everyone got different colors in their role PMs, + mod-provided false claims, what information exactly do you think a color claim provides? Seems to me it doesn't say much of anything.

[Axelrod]

This may be a bit WIFOMish, but why would BS, as scum, claim a non-traditional version of a role like Hider? If she were scum, she doesn't ever have to explain why she didn't die when she hid behind X (scum). Because she'd just never claim to have hidden behind a scum in the first place. She knows who the others are. It's not like she's going to get caught in a mistake there. What does she benefit?

Like, I'm trying to imagine she's afraid of "Watchers" or "Trackers" seeing who she targets and doesn't want to be seen targeting someone who later turns out to be scum and not dying. But that pre-supposes she'd be targeting scum in the first place.

So does that mean that people think she's got some kind of ability that wants to target her fellow hypothetical scum? Like a scum Doc? What is the logic here I'm missing?

[Axelrod]

Also, this does seem to go against the idea that the Mods are giving out these great false claims, doesn't it? Or do you think she's using the false name but NOT whatever false ability claim they gave her to go with the name? That doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

[Axelrod]

Also, this does seem to go against the idea that the Mods are giving out these great false claims, doesn't it? Or do you think she's using the false name but NOT whatever false ability claim they gave her to go with the name? That doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense.

Fully formated does not equal great. That's a bad argument. Again ... in crafting fake-claims the Mods in a Non-Vanilla game have limited sets of roles to choose from. So each fake-claim may be crafted to avoid having too many Town versus Scum duplicate powers also.

Oh come on, you're stretching now. Really stretching.

[Axelrod]

Oh come on, you're stretching now. Really stretching.

Your assertion in this case is that I'm the one who is stretching? Really?

Hey, I said I didn't think the Mods would go to such lengths to create such an elaborate "fake" role PM for a scum false claim, and I just about got my head bit off by people saying oh yes they would! So, fine, but then AT THE SAME TIME you are suggesting that the Mods who gave her this elaborate and detailed fake claim gave her such a horrible (fake) ability claim that it immediately throws said claim into doubt because no Town would have such an ability and it clearly means she's scum/lying and yada, yada, yada.

Sorry, no. That makes no sense.

[Axelrod]

OKAY EVERYBODY

IGNORE AXELROD NOW

ITS CLEAR HES A BUDDY

WE CAN JUST PRAISE ME FOR CATCHING HIM EARLIER AND MOVE ON

So, for future reference, what was it you believed again?

Sucky, but elaborate, mod-provided false claim?

Or she's scum but lying about the false claim they actually gave her?

Or, this was not a mod created false claim at all, and she's making everything up herself?

[Axelrod]

OKAY EVERYBODY

IGNORE AXELROD NOW

ITS CLEAR HES A BUDDY

WE CAN JUST PRAISE ME FOR CATCHING HIM EARLIER AND MOVE ON

So, for future reference, what was it you believed again?

Sucky, but elaborate, mod-provided false claim?

Or she's scum but lying about the false claim they actually gave her?

Or, this was not a mod created false claim at all, and she's making everything up herself?

The first two. Not that hard.

Those two things are not the same you know.

[Axelrod]

Everybody, remember that what's about to happen essentially confirms me as town(think LyLo).

NO IT F****** doesnt.

I so hate you right about now.

I am catching up.

[Axelrod]

VOTE: AV

Same as yesterday.

Don't miss the new lynch thresholds for today. The second wagon will be auto-lynched when the first one goes.

So, just to be clear, you attempted to target AV with your Ecstacy Inspect ability (which you are specifically informed might not be 100%). You got "re-directed" to Almaster (who was RangeroftheNorth), and you got a result of Jesus Christ.

I'm maybe missing where people are assuming this was a "Bus Driver" ability at work here? Because scum would want to Bus Drive one of their own with someone who was basically absent? Why couldn't this have been a regular re-direct?

Can you give the "flavor" of the re-direct? Was there any flavor?

[Axelrod]

OH HEY LOOK SB WAS TOWN

OH HAY LOOK YOU VOTED FOR HER.

[Axelrod]

Sorry, I think I confused SB with BS just there.

[Axelrod]

I just re-read your ability.

We can short this crap out RIGHT NOW because ANDRIUS IS MODDING and this game is thus HIGHLY PREDICTABLE:

Please refer to exhibits A and B:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14747 - GOD
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=16711 - JESUS

Your ability gives you a false result. Andrius decided it would be LULZY to name me Jesus because of the backstory in those two games.

I don't suppose the timing of your Night result rules out the possibility that your result was taylor made for Almaster - given that he replaced Ranger late in the Night phase.

[Axelrod]

I would be a bit annoyed if he really chose insane results on the fly like that, BUT it does seem plausible...and since you replaced in, it's not that he tailor-made the role for you.

So, he

couldn't

have tailor made the results?

[Axelrod]

I was last on the replacement list - I got a mass PM saying the first person to respond took the space. I responded immediately (within 6 minutes) and got the slot. So I don't think I was singled out exclusively.

I would, however, bet CASH MONEY that if your ability thinks up "random" fake names and/or alignments, Andrius thought up that one specifically for me.

I don't know. Given we were specifically told this wasn't a Bastard Mod game, I'd be pretty annoyed to find out that the Mods were making up random results on the fly for a supposed Inspection ability. If he's not "sane" there ought to be some kind of pattern to it other than random luls.

[Axelrod]

how about we ignore lynch 1 cuz its obv

lynch2: CHrono

also i'm a doublevoter since i'm nearly conftown

You really aren't.

[Axelrod]

Is there a reason for SD to not say who he "jailed" last Night?

This would at least presumably be someone who didn't do any killing.

[Axelrod]

SUPER - "Strategic Assault"
A one-shot kill which cannot be prevented, but fails against Greek Gods.

Ok AV

– here is you one chance to have any possibility of surviving the day.

Publicly state your target and then use your Super on them. Supers can be used at any time. You MUST state who you target beforehand.

Unless your shot ‘works’ and you kill a Non-Greek God you are taking the rope.

No Pressure.

I could possibly get behind this. The person she shoots should not be the person who is #2 to Lynch though, as it defeats the point of an ability that "clears" the person it fails on if we then lynch that person along with AV.

[Axelrod]

Not sure why Axel is already framing AV's claimed ability as if it will fail (ala "don't target a secondary lynch suspect").

Assuming you are telling the truth, then it's guaranteed he's going to fail, yes? You have a 100% scum (or Non-Greek with him claiming Athena) result on him, yes?

So, yes, I am assuming his "shot" is going to fail.

I do, however, want to keep all bases covered on the however remote chance that he's telling the truth by not immediately torching the person he has "cleared" before we see AV's alignment.

If he actually kills a scum with this hypothetical day-kill, well, then that would be something I'd be happy to figure out what that means afterwards.

[Axelrod]

I want Gandalf to claim his exact superpower. Like, what it appeared to be was a 1-shot day-vig. that he could only be used on the vote leader and would then end the day.

But maybe there's something in the details.

[Axelrod]

I already used my superpower, and it CONFIRMED ME AS TOWN, so shut up.

NO IT DIDNT

I AM RESISTING THE STRONG URGE TO CALL YOU MANY MORE NAMES RIGHT NOW

[Axelrod]

P-edit: @Iece - I won't die even if he's telling the truth.

Now, why would you say this? Assuming you are saying what I think you are saying.

[Axelrod]

Under the assumption that AV is flipping scum, I looked at what kind of opinions AV expressed earlier and saw this:

In summary,
Dekes, Diddin and BS are scummy. Diddin and BS are the worst most recently, with Diddin scummiest out of all three.
SD is flailing and scummy but should not be lynched today.

This is a bit meta, but almost always, when making lists like this, if I'm scum, I will have at least one scumbuddy in there - partly because I don't want to be

that

wrong, partly because it just

feels

wrong to list too many townies as the most scummy. I'd say AV's interaction with Dekes is consistent with scum distancing tactics.

[Axelrod]

I apologize for my laziness, but can someone paraphrase the case on Quadz?

And Ooba, was there a reason Dekes wasn't still on the table for second lynch that I have missed?

[Axelrod]

This game clearly needs more time that I've really got to put into it, so, I apologize. I don't suppose anyone has compiled a handy dandy claim list yet of everything people have said?

Gandalf is annoying the heck out of me with his cryptic commenting and subsequent rude shouting at people to "drop it" when anyone asks him anything. If you don't want people to ask you about it, then don't say it. There are few things more useless than when you go "I know x, y, and z but I'm not telling you what they are or how I know and I'm going to tell you to stfu if you ask me." In as much as we've got a gimmie lynch on AM and he's said he tell us what he's talking about tomorrow I might just be inclined to let it go, but man, he's irritating.

AGM is also really hostile this game and the Doc claim seems somewhat coincidental, given that AV also claimed Doc. His reactiob to AV's claim seems appropriate, however. It also seems a little questionable that scum #2, seeing his scumbuddy #1 burned and false-claiming Doc, would subsequently also false-claim Doc at the very same time. Despite the "cop" result, I'd rather leave him alive and get another cop result first to try to see whether Ice's non-super is reliable.

I think Quadz is actually looking like a much better #2 lynch. Just glancing at his stuff from the past week or so and there isn't much there. He also does a fairly big flip on AGM, going from "I'd bet money that's a fake result" to "now I think he's the best #2 lynch" in the span of about 4 days. The way he said, as if pre-emptively defending himself from just this accusation, "and yes I looked at all the other wagons and didn't like any of them" didn't some off as actually sincere. And his very last post of "bsasically I agree with everything that's happening" makes me even less inclined to want to lynch AGM today.

I hope to be able to put some more time into this soon.

[Axelrod]

Oh, come on. Jesus Christ isn't a solo role my ass.

Can I just echo Chronopis and say...what?

Since when isn't "Jesus Christ" if he's in this game, a Mafia role? Because you say so?

Are you under the impression that the Mafia is composed of all Gods from the same (non-Greek) Pantheon? And therefore, because JC isn't part of a "Pantheon" he couldn't be Mafia? This seems like quite a leap.

[Axelrod]

See, the Mafia know that Ice's result on AV is good, yes? They also know whether or not AGM is one of them, yes?

So they know that either
(1) Ice is a full Cop; or
(2a) Ice is a least partly an inaccurate Cop
(2b) AGM is 3rd party scum/neutral of some kind (i.e. Jesus Christ but not one of them).

They are going to be more willing to accept that Ice is accurate, given that they know he's right on AV. So they are more likely to be the ones pushing this 3rd party idea if AGM isn't one of them. They'd still want AGM lynched anyway though, regardless, if he isn't one of them.

I'm surprised people are demanding SD explain what he knows about AGM's use of ability. Isn't that the kind of ability use that is exactly what you don't want to let on where it's been directed?

[Axelrod]

Scum:

AurorusVox
quadz08

'kay.

AGar
Shadow Dancer

That just seems a little too gambitty for me to believe.

[Axelrod]

My powers are relatively useless, IMO; I'm willing to claim, as I don't think it will give scum much information outside of my name. AGar's hesitation gives me pause, though; I typically trust his judgement on stuff like this.

Anyone who isn't Ooba want a claim from me?

I vote claim.

[Axelrod]

Ok, so, moving right along then....

This is about the time I like to start compiling claim lists to see where we're at.

This is what I remember off the top of my head:

2. Chronopie - Normal Power "Grace" gives an extra vote to someone. Used N1 on Agar.
3. AurorousVox - Athena, Doc
4. AGar - Knows Poseidon is in the game.
5. Shadow Dancer - Poseidon, Jailkeeper. Targeted Dekes on N1 (Failed?)
7. Iecerint - Dionysus. (Name?)Cop. Regular power redirected on N1 to AGM, Jesus Christ. Superpower on AV (this is supposedly 100%). AV is not Greek pantheon.
8. ooba CryMeARiver -
9. Dekes - Not Jailed on N1 (right?)
11. Gemini (mockingjaye + Katy hydra) -
12. AlmasterGM RangeroftheNorth - Asclepius, Regulat power, Doc. Super, prevent next 3 kills.
13. MagnaofIllusion - Hated Townie can be lynched at L-1
14. Axelrod -
15. gandalf5166 - Regular power, redirect. Redirected Ice to AGM on N1. Super, immediately lynch the vote leader. Lost his vote D2. "Knows" SD is not a SK.
16. quadz08 - Demeter, Mod Confirmed
17. mothrax -
18. LordChronos -
20. chesskid3 - also claimed a Jailkeep power, I believe

I am sure I have missed some things.

One thing that juped out doing this was what Gandalf said about an ability being used on him last Night which explains how he knows SD is not SK and how he knows Dekes was not jailkeepd, because what that strongly suggests is Gandalf knows that SD got redirected onto Gandalf last Night (SD not SK because Gandalf is still alive. Dekes not jailed because SD re-directed). Except if SD got redirected onto Gandalf, then Gandalf would have been jailed and shouldn't have been able to redirect Ice. Plus that this would mean two redirectors.

[Axelrod]

Well, this is not a happy development. For the unfamiliar, which is most of you, I typically don't have strong opinions on anyone in the early part of a game, and I also typically like to do more indepth re-reading before casting votes, which is just not happening now (I'm incredibly busy). Compiling the claim list was both an attempt to get a discussion started, and also an attempt to see if anything could be determined just laying all the claims out next to each other.

@Axel: Why would you assume that I had had him redirected to me?

I'm not assuming it so much as noting that it would explain your otherwise cryptic remarks that you both know (1) that SD is not a SK and (2) you know that Dekes was not jailkept last night despite SD claiming that he targeted him. If you knew that SD had targeted YOU, then you would reasonably presume he was not a SK - because you didn't die, and you would also know that SD did not target Dekes, so that's why Dekes would not have been jailkept. The issue there, of course, is that you were apparently not jailed last Night, as your targeting of Ice has been confirmed by Ice. So if everyone is telling the truth, that's not what happened, but it was the only immediate thing that jumped out at me from doing that list.

This post is missing some sort of reaction to quadz's claim and subsequent use of his super and worse, anything resembling a scum read. Axel, anything you wanna tell us?

I think the link you posted is wrong there, but assuming you are talking about the post where I started the claim list, the part at the top where I say "moving right along then..." was my way of reacting to Quadz's claim and subsequent mod-firming. Really not a lot more to say there. And no, there aren't any "reads" in that post, that wasn't what it was for. I'll do up something more substantial tonight when I can put aside some time for it. Quick hit would be that MoI feels a lot like the last game I played here, which was A Clash of Kings, where there was just this constant niggling sense of worry about him, but nothing you could really pin down or build a case around, and there always seemed to be other people it was always more pressing to address, until it was the end and he was scum and won. Ooba feels a bit the same way. I was going to attempt to look closer at both Mothrax and Lord Chronos. I'm a little worried they are kind of soft targets though. A bit too easy to switch to if you know what I mean.

I'm also inclined to get suspicious of anyone who jumps on me. Character flaw.

I'll do more tonight. I find when i make some kind of promise to post something later, I usually make myself do it however busy I am.

[Axelrod]

Okay, here's Mothrax.

First post (not counting random vote): Right off the top this isn't a great post. He's doing two things which are slightly suspicious. The first is exclaiming at all the "walls" of posts in the thread and promising to read and analyze them later (this doesn't happen). Second is doing a huge waffle on SD. Where he's simultaneously saying (1) People shouldn't be less suspicious of SD because of his "name" claim and (2) AGar claiming role-based knowledge of Poseidon is a reason to be less suspicious. I don't recall too many people saying just because SD claimed Poseidon that he was off the hook. I seem to recall quite the opposite. Everyone immediately said "well, could be a false claim" and kept on pressing.

So. Not a great 1st.

Second post he votes CMAR (now Ooba). He cites CMAR post #77 as a reason to dislike, and there was, in fact, something to dislike in that post in as much as CMAR was suggesting that we should be treating MoI as "clear" for now strictly because of the hated townie claim. He's pretty genreal about his dislikes, saying it reads "poorly", but it kind of does, so, this isn't terrible. I don't like the way he says "scumdiddin" in the post, even though he's not actually suspicious of Diddin yet. An attempt at humor, I suppose, but not really funny.

Third post he keeps his vote on CMAR. Fine.

Fourth post He jumps the Baby Spice wagon. This was after BS made her mistake about who she meant to vote for and was roundly criticized for it, so, kind of an easy vote.

Here Mothrax does a classic which is arguing for a lynch at least partially by suggesting that even if the lynchee is Town the Town is better off without her. He's making connections between BS and Diddin which arguably are pointless for a Mafia to do as they were both town, but certainly not beyond the realms of possibility.

I don't have any issues with the next couple where he's getting into a little back and forth with Chesskid who called him out for lurking. Chesskid is kind of annoying.

Next couple are him pressing the BS wagon and also arguing he sees a connetion between BS and Diddin. These are kind of neutral.

He unvotes BS Here after a demonstration of her SuperPower. I don't quite get this. I guess some people felt that was a Townie ability? I don't actually see where the ability to post a message like that was super confirming. The unvote is otherwise unexplained. Now, if you Did think the ability was confirming then his post was actually pretty much like the post I made after Quadz tree-stumped himself. Which is to say, okay, we're not doing

this

lynch anymore. But again, I don't quite see why you'd take that attitude just because of that post. Several other people have unvoted, however, so it's also possible Moth is doing it because he's again following along.

Moth doesn't get back before the day ends. So, Day one was not a day full of opinions.

First Post of Day 2 was after AV had already claimed. Moth say AGM is full of it (AGM had been Copped as Jesus and was also calling Moth scum). Moth does not vote AGM, however, and says he needs to think about his second choice for lynch (first being AV). No other comment about AV other than "obvious." I don't terribly mind him not elaborating on AV. That one was pretty clear. I also don't mind he didn't immedaitely jump to a second lynch choice.

This post isn't great. He's begging off being busy (possible) and just basically sticking with his old read on CMAR, saying Ooba hasn't done "much" since then.

Post #1206 might be the first post where he actually tries to make a case on someone, in this case Gandalf. He's calling out Gandalf for a contradiction in how he's playing. Gandalf says trying to use "logic" to win a game is retarded, but, Moth says, 1/2 Gandalf's posts ITT were set-up specualtion. I don't know how accurate that remark was, but it's a pretty weak argument. He also says generally Gandalf is posting scummy. Which is sort of right. He's at a minimum posting annoying.

Moth continues that line in his next post.

And now he's just promised content tomorrow as I type this up.

What's kind of remarkable is his complete lack of commenting about almost everything happening in the game. There have been a literal ton of claims and he's mostly ignored them. He hasn't said he thinks a single person is Town I don't believe. He has called very few people scummy. It seems like when he forms an opinion he just sticks with that one until the person is dead and he has to move on. He's really not making any kind of waves.

Day 2 is worse than Day one, but he's been absent most of it. I'd submit he's a much better lynch choice than me, but then again I'm biased.

I'm going to look at Lord Chronos next, but that might not be until tomorrow.

[Axelrod]

Yes sir, it's posts like these that make it all worth while:

I'm happy with our vote on Axel. The last post read more like an attempt to divert votes to the nearest likely candidate than an earnest case to me.

Yes, I am attempting to divert a lynch of myself. Shocking, I know. I also realize people could say "he's just going after the low poster/easy target." Hey, I even said that at the time. I'd be happy to address whatever you didn't think was "earnest" if there was something specific.

Axelrod’s 1441 is another large post that is chock full of speculation and little in the way of actual reads on players. He softly suggests several players (myself and ooba) feel like scum and immediately backs off that position by saying “I suspect those who jump at me”.

You have zero excuse for getting on me for that, considering Clash of Kings. I said more or less the exact same thing about you then, and gee, you were scum. As far as I know, Ooba isn't even jumping on me so I don't know what you're at there. I'm wary of him because he seems fairly unreadable atm.

Your post is notably absent of any opinion on Mothrax yourself. I see you say you still need to "review" what I said. I eagerly await your explanation for why I'm a better choice than him.

Up next: Lord Chronos!

[Axelrod]

I will be accepting gifts of cash money to my Steam account

WOOT FOR AXEL WAGON

You are a terrible player. Unless you are scum. In which case, go for it, I guess.

[Axelrod]

I don't have too much to say about LC's early posting.

After Random vote he challenges BS in his Second post asking if she's "gonna" make a real vote (BS voted the Mod). This is a little casual. I thought he was joking at first. Like, clearly BS's vote was no more serious than any other "random" vote, but LC is taking it quite seriously. He actually gets challenged about this by Gemini, and responds

Here. Saying he thinks voting the Mod is a "Cop out." As though a joke random vote were somehow more committing. Here's where I might acknowledge that this could just be a personal bug of LC's -i.e. different people find different things annoying. In my early years, I didn't random vote at all because I thought it was pointless and a waste of (metaphorical) breath. Now I'm much more laid back (can't you tell?).

In Post #116 he throws the vote down on BS, because of BS's vote on SD. This is pretty neutral. As are most of the next few posts. He sticks with the BS vote, and re-affirms it after BS makes her mistake of who she meant to vote for.

In http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 995113Post #552 he remarks that MoI is "almost certainly" not scum because of his claim which "insures" his death before LoL. Which just seems silly to say. Like, how do you figure his death is insured? Are you planning to lynch him? Even though you think he's "almost certainly" not scum? He's challenging BS to specify what she finds scummy about him, which is fine. BS was really just waggoning with Chesskid here, and Chesskid never really said much about why he was on LC's case.

He sticks with the vote following BS's claim. Says the Hider ability doesn't fit the role. Which is something I suppose he might believe, but then, in #763 he unvotes. It appears he might be following along with SD, in as much as SD is arguing he believes BS's claim and thinks it + her ability means she isn't scum. Say's he'll revote after a review, but doesn't get back before Gandalf ends the day. GEE GANDALF, THAT HELPED US SO MUCH.

So, here there is also not much in the way of opinions expressed on Day 1. He stuck on BS most of the day right up until the end. Didn't give a "Town" read as far as I can see except for the thing about MoI. Didn't say he thought anyone else was scummy. He asked a number of questions, but didn't really follow them up. I don't see much reaction at all to the other claims of the day. So, from that perspective it was very safe, non-threatening play.

Day 2 he also doesn't start by giving out any opinions. Like, Ice comes out with his claim and there's no real reaction to it at all from LC. He's fingering AGM, and LC asks AGM a question Here, but doesn't show his hand at all as to what he's actually

thinking

.

Here he questions a plan of Chesskids (which might not have made any sense), but more interestingly to me, chastises SD to stop "role-fishing" re: Dekes. SD claimed he jailkept Dekes. Dekes claimed he was not jailkept. One would think the conflict between those claims would be of interest, but LC doesn't seem interested about it at all.

#1205 Is probably his longest post of the game. This is where he's going to commit to a second lynch (after the obv. AV). The person he picks is...AGM. His reasoning? "AGM is acting like Ice's result on him is accutare. No protown posting at all."

This whole post is a summary type post. "Gandalf - Chess argument was a waste of space." "AV is posting stuff that is invalid." "Gandalf isn't making sense re:SD SK belief." This post is pretty scummy.

He has a little back and forth with AGM next. AGM challenges LC his for his lack of giving opinions on anyone, and then Here LC gives his big "reads" post. It's pretty underwhelming. He says me for talking mostly theory.set up. Gandalf "pending" gandalf's answer to his question. And AGM, for "reasons discussed above (they weren't really discussed all that much). Town are MoI (which at least is consistent), Gemini (never mentioned before I don't think) and Agar (also not mentioned, but one can infer the reason at least). Quadz is notably absent from this post which is relevant given what happens immediately next. He then begs off with he's been busy. This is at least the third time he's said that. Which might be true but meh.

He then follows MoI and says he's willing to lynch Quadz after AGM has claimed Doc. He agrees with MoI about the "third party comment". Nothing more really said until he jumps to me after Quadz treestump. On me, he just says "as I said earlier" he finds me scummy. He reaffirms this by criticizing my post compiling all the claims in the thread (which I had already made, but he hadn't previously commented on).

He has an awful lot of "question" posts in this game. These are typically 1-liners. They are rarely followed up on. I guess he always satisfied by the answer he gets? Too many of those starts to look scummy. It's a way to stay looking interested without having to really comment or commit yourself to anything. He's mostly following along this game. Posting infrequently. Giving a bare minimum of informed opinions.

Gee, I would again respectfully suggest he'd be a better lynch subject than myself. But after doing this I also wouldn't pick him over Mothrax.

[Axelrod]

Axelrod’s 1441 is another large post that is chock full of speculation and little in the way of actual reads on players. He softly suggests several players (myself and ooba) feel like scum and immediately backs off that position by saying “I suspect those who jump at me”.

You have zero excuse for getting on me for that, considering Clash of Kings. I said more or less the exact same thing about you then, and gee, you were scum. As far as I know, Ooba isn't even jumping on me so I don't know what you're at there. I'm wary of him because he seems fairly unreadable atm.

What now? You claim MoI's point against you to be invalid by saying you said the same thing about him in another game where it would've actually been valid because he was indeed scum there?

Yeah, that's a bona fide scumslip if I ever saw one.

Maybe you aren't understanding what I am saying. In CoK, I was uneasy about MoI for most of the game. I said as much

in

the game. I just could never get up enough to make a case on him and/or there always seemed to be other more pressing matters to deal with. I'm feeling a lot like that again right now. But MoI is here criticizing me for "softly" suggesting he might be scum without pressing a case on him. MoI of all the player here ought to know better - at least that this isn't some kind of scum tell.

This is about his supposed "read" of me in this game. If he's Town, he should know the point he's making is not a valid point. I think MoI is actually very smart. So I am definitely holding it against him here that he's so off base.

[Axelrod]

This is about his supposed "read" of me in this game. If he's Town, he should know the point he's making is not a valid point. I think MoI is actually very smart. So I am definitely holding it against him here that he's so off base.

But you can't say it's not a scumtell by pointing to a game where scum did it.

@quadz
Pretty sure I did.

- Moi attacks Axel for waffling about people attacking him ("I may just call them scum because they're attacking me")
- Axel says MoI can't use this as a valid scumtell because MoI did the same thing in Clash of Kings
- MoI was scum in Clash of Kings

No, You're still not getting it. I did the same thing in CoK. ME. I was TOWN. MoI KNOWS This (or he ought to). But he's still attacking me for it.

[Axelrod]

Unofficial Vote Count

AurorusVox [2] - Iecerint; MagnaofIllusion
Iecerint [1] - AurorusVox
LordChronos [2] - chesskid3, ooba
Mothrax [1] - Shadow Dancer

Not Voting [12] - Chronopie, AGar, AGar, , Dekes, Gemini, AlmasterGM, , Axelrod, mothrax, LordChronos
With 15 votes in HELLFIRE, it takes 8 6 to lynch. Deadline is Monday, May 16th, 2011, 9:00PM PST.

Mothrax bailing really sucks and means he's probably scum. It's going to be almost impossible to get a claim before the deadline, so it would be lynching in the dark. Seems like Town Mothrax really ought to know better - he's got time to come and PM the Mod he wants to be replaced, but not to post here? Whereas scum might just be hoping people will give him a pass rather than lynch without claim.

If we can get a replacement/extension, its better.

[Axelrod]

In other news I'll address Axel's bad "I was Town in a single game so MoI MUST know I am Town here" argument either later tonight or early tomorrow.

Before you waste your valuable time tearing down some strawman argument that I am not making, you might want to take a moment to try and understand what I'm actually saying first.

I guess we're waiting for Conspiracy now. During this interlude, here's some music. Also, I shall attempt to look closer at someone else. Exactly who shall be a mystery!

[Axelrod]

I was going to do a thing on Chronopie, but see Conspiracy has claimed.

It's pretty bad.

I know this is not exactly breaking news.

If the only argument in your favor is "Why would scum Conspiracy claim to have RBed AGar when only a scum would have attempted to RB AGar," well, it's pretty bad. Chesskids RB ability makes it slightly worse looking, but I wouldn't just say "this is too many RBers" and use that as the reason. Basically, Mothrax was pretty scummy, Conspiracy hasn't said anything to change that, and the claim didn't help.

I'm good with those 2.

I'll still post a thing on Chronopie a little later, just to get it out there.

[Axelrod]

Vote: AurorusVox

[Axelrod]

For your reading pleasure, here's the thing I did on Chronopie. I thought I might as well post it for reference since I did it.

First post (after random vote) has a few things to look at. Chesskid voted Chrono based on Chrono's random vote and Chrono does seem to take it perhaps more seriously than it deserves to be taken. He asks "WTH is Chesskid smoking" and demands an explanation. So, I realize that Chesskid has this attitude of infalibility which can be annoying, but why are you demanding an explanation for his vote of you when clearly the vote couldn't have been based on much of anything at all? You had 1 post and it was a random vote. Chesskid didn't like the

way

you random voted, but that's something that you blow off normally, not get all federal about. This is a minor thing.

Also, he has apparently misread AGAR as saying that Chrono is Town. His reaction to this is a little strange,
"I'm going to let that roll for now, but...yeah..."

First Vote goes to Diddin in #518 (after a 4 day absense). This is mostly a wagon vote. He agrees with this, he agrees with that. He gives a slight defense of AV (saying AV's post is similar to something he's done before as Town). He doesn't go into what in particular he thinks is scummy about Diddin, just states it and done.

He says he's

inclined

(his italics) to believe BS's claim after she claimed, again without saying more specifically what he finds believable. It's this kind of surface response which doesn't say very much, and really nothing about why he thinks the way he thinks that are just not helpful.

#663 is where he first "hints" at his double-vote granting ability? Saying that claiming at L-2 is a good idea in a game with a double-voter. He immediately switches to saying a game with a "high probability" of being a double voter.

He opens Day 2 with a bit of stating the obvious. (We

need

to keep a close eye on the votecount (his italics)).

And then, in # 833 he makes the remark that Ice noted about asking "did anyone get a PM related to the word 'grace'?) This is weird because presumably he knows who he used his ability on, so what are you asking this for? The only possible reason, would seem to be if he thought there was some chance his ability went awry in the Night, and he didn't hit his actual target. But why would he think this? Was there a reason? Apparently he DID hit his target, so, again, why the asking? And the possible answer is: he wanted to look so Townie by making someone who most think is Town a double voter, and he wants to be sure to get the credit for doing it. I note that AGar, his target, had not even posted yet this game day.

My hesitation is, wow, what a dumb thing to say as Mafia. This is a guy with a "Best Performance Mafia" badge, and he's making this incredibly clumsy play as scum? I mean, I guess it's possible, but man, seems almost too poor play.

He then Claims in #936. There is no explanation here for why he's claiming or why he was asking if anyone got a "Grace" pm. Presumably he's claiming because a few people have (unsurprisingly) been asking him what the heck he's talking about.

What's maybe more telling is (and this seems to be a theme) his complete lack of response to what's happening in the thread. There have been claims and accusations. AV has been fingered outright and AGM also implicated with questions.

#949 is where he give the closest thing to an opinion saying "AV is obviously Lynch choice #1." Gee, thanks for that insight. As to his next choice, however, he says nothing, instead asking "Does anyone else have any investigations they wish to reveal?" To which the obvious response is WTF? It's almost another "too stupid for scum" kind of post. Would a scum really come out and just ask if there were any other inspections people wanted to reveal at this time? This post is basically ignored as people are talking about other things.

Next few posts don't really say anything.

In #1243, he suggests AGM as Lynch #2 choice based on the "possibly insane" Ice inspection as well as "complete and utter lack of doing shit" (irony!) I don't understand his point here that all AGM would need to do to "clear" himself would be to claim his role, normal and super, and demonstrate the Super. What?

Follows up this post with a Vote for AGM in #1247. He claims to have read AGM's iso and doesn't like that so much of it is AGM screaming and using obcenities. I wasn't a huge fan of this either, so, this is more neutral for me.

He's pretty much checked out since then. 3 posts in the past week. One questioning Quadz's statement that Jesus was a "third party" role. And 2 criticizing Chesskid. In his last post he says that LC is not the lynch for today, or even the 2nd lynch. Doesn't say why. Doesn't say who it should be. Hasn't chimed on on Mothrax/Conspiracy/That Claim at all.

So yet again, here's someone who's doing pretty much nothing. Seriously, I am getting grief from people for "floating" but I have tried.

[Axelrod]

This was an incredibly creative game. Loved all the roles and role PMs. It was also exceptionally well modded. Kudos to you guys. I am not going to comment on the "balance" or individual role designs just because that would probably take more time to analyze than it's worth. I'll just say it was all cool.

Too bad real life kept me from ever really getting into this 100%. I was hoping to last longer, expecially with my "get out of one death free" card, and then try to blow things up using like all my 1-shots at once, but that clearly didn't happen. I think I was looking at the right people, mainly, but never felt strongly enough about it to ever really push for anyone, which sadly led to people getting on me for being non-committal and a non-presence. Then I got put in a QT with someone I didn't really trust, and that was fun for a little while, but I couldn't maintain my activity.

So, great game, guys, I enjoyed it while it lasted.