Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[Soben]

There's no point keeping this side of the head a secret, it would become obvious too fast. This side of the head is Regfan, the other will remain secret.

Post #10 by IceyCupcake - Why, oh why. I'm not going to be voting you, but likelihood is you're town.
Post #34 by SGRaaize - Wow. You're just bad in general, not sure what allignment you are though.

I have a simple question, does everyone have at least one damaging ability?

Yes. I believe so.

Post #94 by BunnyLover - She's not as direct as mafia, thus she's town this game.
Post #98 by ABR - ABR's town. Positive on it, I did the exact same thing I was told I was a sorcerer and was wondering where my scum partners were, then realized I was actually town.
Post #102 by IceyCupcake - Solidifes IC town-read.
Post #123 by CMAR - Yep. CMAR's town too.

I'm trying to figure out its heads and I want to be more certain, and eliciting a reaction to a vote will help with that.

Now that I've claimed my head, start scumhunting champ.

Post #126 by Katy - So SGR is "pretty obv. scum." but you don't vote him? Explain.
Post #142 by CMAR - Solidifies CMAR town-read.

Well, Beef's town imo.

Mind explaining the town-read on Beff, not seeing it myself.

Since my theory is that everyone has a damaging spell, I think we can use that to our advantage by NK'ing a scummy player as a group at nightfall.

I think Chesskid pointed out the flaw, the person will just be 'protected or healed' as scum.

Town:

ABR, IceyCupcake, BunnyLover, CMAR, inHimshallibe.

Scum:

Riceballtail, Katy, Implosion.

Vote: Ricebaltail

[Soben]

You're calling us town yet not helping with the voting?

As far as I can tell, the risks involved with following your orders greatly outweight the benefits.

[Soben]

Only if Icey is something other than Town, which you already stated you think they are. So, which is it? Compliance commensurate with your earlier confidence, or fabricated reads?

I'll attempt to reexplain it because it seems you're having difficulty understanding. I currently have a town-read on IceyCupcake. This town-read is based around the fact that I fail to see any real scum-motivation behind his outright demand as it directs attention towards him instantly. I do however see a possibilty that Icey is indeed third party, thus following his orders involves immese risk whereas not doing so has no real harm.

[Soben]

Well, Beef's town imo.

Mind explaining the town-read on Beff, not seeing it myself.

Incase you missed it.

[Soben]

With no associative tells to be established how can you say someone is town but still possibly third party?

Roles and factions: This is a rather vanilla-less setup. All factions have a winnable condition. If a win condition is achieved, and it doesn't directly interfere with the win condition of another faction, the game will keep on. For example, if the win condition of a player is to get certain player lynched, should that player achieve that condition (and no other win condition is achieved at the same time), the game can keep on. There is at least one town faction and one scum faction. Town faction is called Sorcerers, while scum faction is called Wizards. Other factions may exist, and they may have wizards, sorcerers, or other classes.

The OP implies multiple third party roles in the setup, Iceys win condition could simply be to recieve x amount of votes during the game thus although I don't see him as scum I have no reason to vote him.

[Soben]

I feel there's some disconnect in reading Icey as Town, realizing that if Icey is indeed some third party with an alt win condition it won't preclude town from a win, and then not following your Town read of Icey by following their plan.

Do you think Scum and Anti-Town third parties are found by different means on D1?

1. Yes, I do believe Scum and Anti-Town third parties are indeed found by different means. I'll show an example if you like: Lyncher will push strongly towards their target to the extent that they don't mind suspicion being cast against them if it means getting their target lynched. Mafia don't like the idea of trading one msylnch for excessive suspicion cast towards them. Therefore such actions have obvious town/third party motivations while not having scum motivations whatsoever.

2. The fact that their win condition doesn't preclude town from a win doesn't change anything, them recieveing their win condition could still have a drastic effect on the game.

3. As I previously stated risk vs reward shows that it isn't worth voting them, so I'll ask you right now, why do you believe that it's beneficial to vote them before voting elsewhere?

Post #194 by Riceballtail - I don't "know" that you're scum if I knew I would be screaming for votes on you, however I do indeed think you're scum. Your post was made way past the RVS section of the game and you refrained from commenting on anything that had occured.

Soben: Why hide a head of your hydra?

I haven't had a chance to discuss this game with my other head at all, if he wants to out his main account he's free to but it's something I don't want to do for him in case he opposes.

[Soben]

So what's your reason for giving reasons for your town-opinions, but keeping most scum-related reasons hidden? Aka, no reasons given in that post for RBT-scum and Implosion-scum.

Simple, witholding reasoning for my FoS at this stage of the game allows me to moniter said players reactions to the FoS. Rices reaction in this case proves that she's following the thread without providing any imput herself solidifying my vote on her. An example of this proving effective is in Newbie 1078 where Tragedy started flailing when reasoning wasn't attached to a FoS on her.

[Soben]

Note how they comment on the other two, but have no reason for me to be in the list, much less vote.

Simple, witholding reasoning for my FoS at this stage of the game allows me to moniter said players reactions to the FoS. Rices reaction in this case proves that she's following the thread without providing any imput herself solidifying my vote on her. An example of this proving effective is in Newbie 1078 where Tragedy started flailing when reasoning wasn't attached to a FoS on her.

You have a problem comprehending english?

[Soben]

Are you able to filter the difference between "finger of suspicion" and "vote"?

The difference between them at this stage of the game is minor. There's no risk or likelihood that the vote I placed on you would cause a lynch therefore no harm in doing so, if anything it increases the strength of reaction you present.

[Soben]

Wow. You acknowledge that they aren't harmful to town. And then you vote for them. Why the FUCK?

We are jester-like.

Please always vote us before voting someone else, thanks.

That should answer your question.

[Soben]

I don't object to people posting town-reads in general, but I don't understand why Soben is bothering to post town reads that are so weak that even though they have a town read on IceyC, they aren't willing to back it up by voting him as he's asked.

My town-reads are far from weak, I just fail to see the massive benefits in voting Icey before voting elsewhere, it seems like an uneeded risk. Going to give this thread another read through on my way to uni. Currently leaning towards SGR being town, and Chesskid is right Inhim is town, I'd bet my

life

hydra partners life on it.

[Soben]

is chesskid town too?

Not getting the 'obvtown' read I normally get from you, though certaintly not getting a scumread either. I'm interested in hearing GI's thoughts he knows your meta far better than I do.

PEDIT: IceyCupcake, I'm more than willing to listen to your opinions I just have no intent on voting you unless I see reasonable evidence that proves that it's worth doing so.

[Soben]

More votes on Soben, please.

What in particular about my refusal to vote IceyCupcake do you find scummy? What scum-motivation is there behind directly disobeying someone openely claiming a request for votes?

Stop fishing. : )
If you think we're town, then vote us. Simple as that.

1) Fishing would imply attempting to attain information regarding your role, I know perfectly well GI wouldn't reveal such information thus there would be no reasoning or motive behind fishing.

2) You know full well it's "Not as simple as that", I've already explained I don't believe it to be optimal to vote you.

[Soben]

Your reasoning of it not being optimal is based around the belief that we may not be town.

Which, in that case, leads us back to the original of point of, why are you going to call us town if you're not willing to act as such?

I call play that I believe has no scum-motivation whatsoever "Town-tells" which I generally associate with town, at the same time given the setup style I can see possibilties of you being third party/alternate faction with the risks of voting you being severe.

No one suggested that your (wise) decision not to vote Icey had anything to do with the above quote.

Elaborate.

[Soben]

If he wins by getting votes, then how does that wincon interfere with town's? He'd just win and leave the game.

2. The fact that their win condition doesn't preclude town from a win doesn't change anything, them recieveing their win condition could still have a drastic effect on the game.

The fact I'm having to continously explain such a basic concept is becoming frustrating to say the least.

Other hydra-head is currently reading through the thread and we're likely to have a proper discussion about reads later today, heading to uni for now.

[Soben]

Elaborate on what? You assigned a meaning to a quote that was never even remotely intended. I corrected you. Stop taking me out of context and pretending that I'm obfuscating my intentions.

You're severely mistaken however if I need to rephrase it I will do so. You ask for more votes on me, then state it has nothing to do with refusing to vote for IceyCupcake, thus the 'elaborate' is for you to explain what reasoning it is for.

[Soben]

Hi, this is the other half of the hydra here, aka, the non Regfan one. I wanted to state my reads. I haven't had a chance to discuss these with Regfan but most of my comments will be on players other than the ones he has mentioned. Didn't even plan it that way but this is what I gathered from a quick read.

1. I think the blatant powering up of Icey's ability is so bad by anyone who is willing to unvote him/vote him. Particularly since from the very beginning of the game he came right out and said hey power up my ability please. I'm not going to tell you what I'm doing, but I'm not town-sided at all. In the best case scenario for you town, Im 3rd party! Go ahead and vote away. Now what possible motivation would a town-player for doing what he says? None. And it is because of that that my strongest town read is Pine.

I thought Gandalf was likely town and although I had a slight scum read on SGR early on but hus recent attention whoring has made me reconsider if he really cares about his life or minds pressure on him. Null on SGR for now.

I have a slight town read on Wrathchild but don't remember why off the top of my head and thought implosion was town. He is probably just trying to figure out who the hydra is made up of by voting us

I have a slight scum read on Albert for essentially throwing us all a bone with a couple quick reads while blatantly role fishing as town Pine pointed out. And I know it goes against what I'm saying, but no, I don't think every character has a damaging ability and I think we shouldn't answer that question or address it again.

My strongest scum read so far was on LynchMePls. Mostly he has seemed situationally like he has been trying to seize the opportunity to make people look bad without actually investigating his suspicious. Also a scum tell of mine personally is explaining the game mechanics as a defense mechanism to take attention off myself for my actions. I see him doing that in a post. I'm really bad with quotes and formatting stuff so bear with me and it should be pretty obvious whether its me or Regfan posting.

Here are Regfan's reads for reference:
Town: ABR, IceyCupcake, BunnyLover, CMAR, inHimshallibe.
Scum: Riceballtail, Katy, Implosion.

I will be asking him to explain his reads to me offline but this half of the hydra will be pushing for a LynchMePls vote/lynch.

[Soben]

Such grammar and spelling fail my god. And to think I used to edit my high school's newspaper. Look how dumb 4 years of college and too much booze has made me.

[Soben]

Just had an extremely detailed chat with my other head about our reads and he now agrees that ISO #4 by ABR is actually an incredibly strong town-tell, we don't see him openely stating that he has 'multiple killing abilities" as mafia.

As much as my other head wants to lynch Icey just out of fear, he now also agrees that Icey is likely town/third party. Neither of us see GreyICE allowing Katsuki making their opening claim post as scum nor do either of us see them claiming in such a manner that draws excessive attention towards them.

We also read through LMP together, and I can understand where he's coming from, LMP's argument with SGR shows no attempt at revealing his allignment, rather just "proving that he's correct". In majority of his posts he refrains from stating if he believes SGR's thought process is scum-motivated or just a bad town-play, a primary example of this is where he asks SGR why he's lying in ISO #16 by LMP rather than stating if he believes SGR's lie is a scum-tell or not.

I'll go into our other reads at another point, I have to head to class.

[Soben]

Soben: Do your heads have different roles?

No. We do not.

[Soben]

I intend to self-vote and push my lynch when I finish. I have nothing to lose, and Town has everything to gain from this tactic.

This is quite possibly the worst idea I've ever heard. Considering my other hydra head is positive you're town and I share that thought to a degree I'm going to tell you right now that you need to:

1) Cut down on the number of your posts referencing Icey because regardless how sure you are that he isn't town there are other scum and tunnelling towards him allows every other player to go by unoticed.

2) Not attempt to push towards your own lynch, because if you're town you're instantly playing against your own win-condition even if you believe your death will reveal alternate results.

3) State your thoughts on every other player in the game.

[Soben]

At this point, Soben, nothing I say will be taken seriously by half the players in this game until I flip Town. THAT is why I have to do it. Someone has to be the D1 lynch, and I'd rather is be a near-Vanilla player whose flip will make them more effective than their survival.

I believe every player in the game is willing to take your thoughts seriously if you back it up with logic and reasoning even if they currently suspect you. On top of that the amount of players in the room that currently believe you're scum is far less than half so there is no reason for you to be acting defeatist at all.

[Soben]

I think we should set up a firing squad, and use it as a group vigilante. I've done this before, and the first time we put the idea to practice we actually managed to shoot scum.

I've been pondering over this about recently and still don't believe it's the best way to go mainly due to the fact that 'redirection' or said attacks would be devastating for us - The OP states that redirection occurs before the damage is dealt.

[Soben]

All the more reason to have multiple targets, Soben. Problem solved.

Multiple targets may work, I'll discuss it with my other hydra head later.

Also, thoughts on Beefster?

We both have him as null, his vote on BunnyLover earlier feels slightly off but I wouldn't consider it scummy.

[Soben]

His attacks on me make sense to you, then, Soben?

His "Attacks" consist of him voting you due to a misunderstanding of one of your posts which I don't find allignment related. I do agree with his comments in regards to ISO #8 where he states your questions are quite pointless however I don't understand how that makes him assured of his vote.

[Soben]

That is how I read his posts. I'm asking around because I want to see if others read them the same way.

I read it as he suspects and votes you for using cicular logic. He noticies you asking irrelevant questions therefore feels better about his vote on you. He then realizes he has misread your initial post and agrees that you didn't in fact use cicular logic however is still suspicious towards you thus keeps his vote on you.

[Soben]

And that says "town" to you?

No, it says null to me.

[Soben]

Not seeing the case on Pine at all.

Not saying you're scummy or anything for it, but I'm curious as to whether you've genuinely read the last 2 pages.

I tend to agree with Dryfit, although I can understand and see where the case against Pine is coming from I don't believe it holds much ground, sure his attitute might be excessive and his play might be bad but there's no real scum-motivation behind it either.

I would never play this suicidally as scum. It's just not a good idea.

I would link you to games where I've played this way as Town, but at least one is ongoing. I think there's an offsite game like this, I'll find the link when I get home

I would much rather you focused your time and efforts in providing your reads with reasoning attached to them.

[Soben]

It was early game with little to go on, so I may as well have looked for the hydra heads while there was relatively little to do.

See, I have two problems with this:
1) You've already stated you believe our heads are obvious thus I don't understand the need to hydra-hunt.
2) If you really were that interested in our heads you would check to see where I've posted and then instantly notice I account-slipped in another game.

Why vote this scumread instead of a scumread that you had commented on?

Simple. I know you can react to pressure quite welll, especially coming from one of us two therefore the reaction we obtain from you would be minimal compared to voting an alternate scum-read.

Basically, if Soben thinks Icey is town, Soben has little reason not to vote Icey like Icey asks because Icey clearly has reason that they can't reveal for asking for votes. If Soben's reason not to vote is the stated above, then I've debunked that. If it's because Soben isn't sure if Icey is town, there's still little reason not to because Soben has a townread on Icey, meaning it's more likely that there will be positive effects from voting Icey than negitave effects.

You really want to continue pushing this? I see the possibly of roles such as a cult-recruiter who is only allowed to recuit if he obtains x number of votes a day in the game thus there are indeed risks to voting him while no risks in not doing so.

[Soben]

Why vote this scumread instead of a scumread that you had commented on?

Simple. I know you can react to pressure quite welll, especially coming from one of us two therefore the reaction we obtain from you would be minimal compared to voting an alternate scum-read.

You didn't vote for me, you voted for Riceballtail.

Exactly?

[Soben]

Misread part of that. Why RBT instead of Katy, whose scumread you'd explained?

Katy provides content without being pressured thus the likelihood is I'll be able to read her easier as the game progresses whereas Ricetailball provides minimal content in all of her games.

Implosion, what's your thoughts on the Amrum vs Beefster argument?

[Soben]

What I don't get is, if you think we're town, why do you keep gravitating towards the worst possible scenarios rather than the most positive?

I don't think it's possible that I can make this any more clearer than this:

I consider anything that I don't believe is scum as town. I don't believe you're scum, therefore I put you in the town pile however I can very much see you as third party.

[Soben]

Pine, any chance you can post an ETA on your list of reads?

I just realized that people might think of what I am doing as 1) Something with scum motives and 2) Scum trying to appear protown, but this is how I genuinely feel about AtE through selfvotes.

I strongly disagree, I believe that lynching somone purely due to disliking their playstyle is a player basically stating they don't have any scum-reads which they should in this game. Attempting to pin the blame and sole reason of your vote on Pine for AtE is in itself bad play. What about his play do you believe has scum-motivation behind it rather than just frustrated town play?

[Soben]

Icey, non Regfan head here. Although both Regfan and I don't believe you to be scum, we have the town's best interest in mind. We think about worst case scenarios because this is a game of trust. Trust has to be earned. Paranoia is a good thing, it keeps us all in check. Would you feel at ease if everyone just instantly trusted you? Don't you think its a good thing we are doubting you? Doubt, questioning, pressure, trials, those are the things that trust and town alliances are formed on.

Implosion, I doubt you would guess who I am if I gave you 3 guesses. I want to vote Amrun or LMP. Will discuss with Regfan. I don't have a problem with our vote right now, but that lynch isn't going to happen I don't think and I'd much rather push for Amrun/LMP.

Icey, would explaining your power make sense? Just a suggestion haven't thought the full consequences through. Generally, I'm a fan of town being as open as possible. Concealing things is a mafia tactic.

Pine's behavior is something I really need help interpreting.

I have a theory that this game is full of several self-aligned jesters. (00s music is a lot of terrible attention whores anyways). Lots of jesters + scum. Can see Slaxx jerking off to that type of setup to be honest.

[Soben]

LOL. WRONG GAME. I'm thinking of 00s band mafia. Fuck. I do think there are a lot of jesters though. LOOOOL.

[Soben]

@Soben: I've been instructed by Katsuki very clearly that claiming anything in a Snow_Bunny game is a Very Bad Thing^TM. I will say is that we've thrown a spotlight on ourselves right at the start of day 1, and there's town motives in our actions. You've been reaching pretty hard here (A cult recruiter that recruits based on voting?) and it's all wrong as hell Honestly, on a scale of 1-10, how likely is it that we're scum here?

Also Nicodemus, I can guess who you are, so nyah

Alright, I was just given the go ahead to reveal my hydra partners account, it's Scumhunter who shall be named (S) for conviences purpose and from now on he's on a leash so he doesn't talk about another game. I completly disagree with S, you don't need to claim anything at all, doing so is actually harmful.

I've stated this already, I believe there is

zilch

chance that you're scum, and I believe the likelihood that you're a third party would be about a 4/10 however I still see no reason to follow your voting system. For the record, I'm close to positive that Pine is town given his claim, I recommend people unvote as soon as possible and start moving their votes to someone they might actually be scum. Hint: It's not SGR or Pine.

[Soben]

BunnyLover, there's really no way you can see his claim and still believe he's mafia, I suggest you move your vote now.

[Soben]

Nothing like accidentally clearing yourself in two games. Shit is so cash. Hi Pine. This hydraing feels like a homework assignment. Not sure I can keep up with Regfan's demand for me to logically explain my reads. Feels like I'm in an abusive relationship to be honest. This is me reaching out for help.

[Soben]

No means No Regfan. I will not explain my scum read on LMP or my town read on Gandalf on your OCD google doc. I don't care if you typed the other 20 reads yourself. I'm here to win but I also want to ENJOY the game.

[Soben]

I love mass claiming Regfan is trolled by my overall game play and even threatened me to replace out if I decided to claim for us. What a complainer!

[Soben]

Coming from the half of the hydra that likes trolling from time to time....self-voting is hard core trolling and playing against your win condition, unless of course you are some sort of jester role or mafia wifoming. But you know that already Pine.

[Soben]

Alright, there's a bulk of new content in the thread since I've last read through properly, I should have it all read within an hour. I'm going to ask that you attempt to ignore my other side of the heads blatantly trolling remarks, he seems to gain happiness by annoying myself.

[Soben]

Fully caught up, going to have a discussion with S though personally I'm still comfortable with my vote on RBT. I highly doubt that Pine was a mod-kill, likelihood is that there's some form of lame game mechanic that kills of players upon claiming. Also, this discussion about people claiming to have them killed off as a form of town gain is pure stupidity.

Post #497 by SGRaaize - Unsure how you can gain any sort of comparison between yourself and RBT given the post difference.

Post #507 by LMP - Our slot isn't in your reads list, also can you explain your implosion town-read?

Post #530 by SGRaaize - I've explained my reasoning for not voting Icey multiple times, if you still don't know it just ISO me.

Post #548 by inHimshallibe - I've never played in a game with any form of damage or redirection.

Post #611 by Dry-Fit - Lets get this right, you believe RBT doesn't look good and that you don't like Snake due to lack of contribution however you: 1) Add no contribution yourself. 2) Don't vote either of them.

[Soben]

Katy, what do you think of the possibility of Beefster + Amrun both being scum? I know when I decide to bus sometimes I have an unhealthy obsession with winning the bussing battle and getting my partner lynched over me XD That could explain the fishing for support that goes past normal scumhunting in this case. Both Regfan and I have Amrun as one of our top suspects and he is leaning scum on Beef as well, while I am more null on Beef at the moment. Just a theory, haven't looked into it enough to know if this is plausible or likely.

[Soben]

I'm wondering if all the people who are like "OHHHH Chess is obv town!" really know or are they just following the crowd. Cause honestly having played with chess a couple times recently I don't notice anything that's not normal Chesskid behavior.

There hasn't been many people stating that Chesskid is obvtown rather the opposite, I'm failing to see him town-tell hardcore like he normally does early in the game.

Survey says LMP is the winner for now. Soben still ranks high on my scumdar.

Judging from a quick breeze through of some of your completed games you're a man of a few words however I would still like for you to explain what you believe makes LMP mafia as well as your suspicions in regards to our slot. Scumhunter might be a complete moron but his retarded posts should surely clear any concerns you had about us.

[Soben]

Is no one really seeing what I am seeing with chesskid?

I'm not, but to be fair I haven't been making a particular effort to read into chesskids posts, I normally just judge him as obvtown or null.

Amrum, while you're online there's a few people I want your opinion on, they include Zdenek, Manu_Ku and Wrathchild.

[Soben]

Amrum, I can agree with your read on Zdenek and WrathChild though I'd like you to explain the Mana-Ku town read though because I'm getting town-vibes from her posts but am unable to put the reasoning behind it in words myself.

SGR, instead of keeping separate quick-topics for every player in the game can you just state your reads on them. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

[Soben]

SGR, instead of keeping separate quick-topics for every player in the game can you just state your reads on them. I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Nah, as your other head rightly says, its boring shit. I'l just reread from time to time.

QFT

[Soben]

Going to catch up on this game later tonight, but from a brief skim through I'm no longer that big a fan of a Beefster lynch.

[Soben]

Going to catch up on this game later tonight, but from a brief skim through I'm no longer that big a fan of a Beefster lynch.

Told you asshole.

[Soben]

Can we lynch Amrun yet?

[Soben]

unvote, vote: Amrun

Regfan, do I have to do all the work of hunting scum around here? :'(

[Soben]

I know Amrun, thats why I'm stepping in for him and changing our vote.

[Soben]

Not sure Regfan (R) will be happy I changed the vote, but I know he definitely thinks Amrun is scummy as well. 32 pages really is a lot for d1 and we should get our serious business faces on. I'll let R explain why Amrun is scum because I'm too lazy and I'm generally slow and bad at explaining things.

[Soben]

Who the hell is Soben?

Regfan and Scumhunter. You've played with us both before.

I had a disucssion with S not too long ago, and we've gone over all our reads, I should have them up in a few hours or tommorow morning latest. I've been doing some reading into Amrums meta, her scum games are Open 298 and Execution Mafia and her play lacks any ressemblence to either of those games, that couped with the fact some of her recent posts read as town-tells means that an Amrum lynch is not the way to progress today.

Unvote, Vote: LMP

[Soben]

I was definitely town in Open 298.

I'm going to get an incredible amount of shit from gorilla then, I told him you were most certaintly scum when he replaced out of the game.

[Soben]

gorilla wasn't in that game...

If you're talking about chesskid's mini normal, then I was town in that, too.

Wow. I really do need to head to bed. Going to have a discussion with S when I wake up, want to see what he thinks about your meta. Going to

Unvote

for now because I'm feeling incredibly stupid.

[Soben]

Still in the Material World

13- Soben - Town (Sounds like a married couple)

Fine with me as long as I wear the pants. Speaking of which

unvote, vote Soben

Feels like I just slapped a bitch.

[Soben]

unvote

Its my repressed homosexuality mostly Albert. Regfan whines and complains about near everything, so its fun to mess with him. Also, our hydra QT this game is LOL funny.

[Soben]

Apologies for my brain-fart earlier, I shouldn't be playing when I'm sleep deprived.

Post #845 by Beefster - This is a complete misrepresentation of what occured and reads as an attempt to smear Amrums image, she was responding to my thoughts on her meta, not bringing up gamblers fallacy.

Post #871 by Amrum - Want to explain to me the point of a reaction test vote if you state it's a reaction-test vote?

Post #883 by CMAR - Ugh. I have to agree with this, I don't see Beef making such posts as scum which means he's just awful town.

Post #897 by Implosion - Really dislike the attack on Snake for something trivial, there's a difference between scummy and a scum-tell, selfvoting is scummy but it's not exactly a scum-tell so Snake is indeed correct here.

Post #900 by Pere - This is bad, as someone else stated it seems like you just ISO'ed, you need to comment on events that have occured. What's your thoughts on the early wagon on SGR?

Town (From Strongest to Weakest):

ABR, Chesskid, Manu_Ku, SGR, IceyCupcake, CMAR, WrathChild, Baby Spice, Gandalf, Beefster, Feysal, Katy.

Null:

SnakePlussken, inHimshallibe, Zdenek, BunnyLover.

Scum (From Strongest to Weakest):

Implosion, RBT, Dry-Fit, LMP, PeregrineV, Amrum.

Vote: Implosion

[Soben]

LMP, I touched on it earlier however I'll elaborate.

This is a bad conflation of anti-town and scum. Selfvoting (or threatening to do so) is obviously anti-town; AtE is probably anti-town; however, if this was your reasoning for justifying a Pine vote, then this reasoning is terrible; just because someone acts anti-town, it does not mean that they are scum, as I explained earlier. You have to look at intentions and whether or not a given appeal looks genuine or contrived.

He tells Wrath that his vote and reasoning behind the Pine vote was terrible because people have to look at the intentions behind the persons actions to attain a real read of what allignment they are, he does this without attempting to read Wraths intentions at all which contradicts the main point he's trying to get across.

I've been missing some from skimming, but I'm in agreement with pressure on beef at this point. His attack on Pine didn't look good either. A lot of the attacks on pine were really bad, actually.

Here he states that he agrees with pressure towards Beef without adding any extra pressure himself, he then states that peoples attacks on Pine were bad without stating any specific names or moving his vote to one of them.

Bolded emphasis is mine - how can something be scummy when you admit that it can come from either alignment? Something is defined as scummy if it is indicative that the alignment of the person in question is scum. How can something be scummy "whether someone is town or not?" If it can come from town or scum, why pay attention to it at all?

This is incredibly opportunistic, it's a known fact that a scum-tell and a scummy action are two entirely different things, there are things that can be percieved as scummy however unallignment related thus his attack on Snake reads as "Attack the lurker" on a completlely incorrect basis.

[Soben]

WC, I agree with your analysis with re: to the Amrun/Beef wagons with regards to the likeliness of both scum/both town. Surely that is not 100% reliable but you make good points specifically about lack of wagon jumping.

Oh and this is Scumhunter here. I was the one who placed the second vote on Amrun. Was mostly a feel thing, I was tired of pussyfooting around all day, and it was one of the only scum reads that Reg and I both strongly agreed on at the time. He then bitched me out for "locking a counterwagon" when there was still more info to be gained. After Amrun's later posts/responses to the growing wagon, Reg and I both came to the conclusion at about the same time that we were liking the Amrun wagon less and less. At this moment in time, we definitely are very much for supporting a lynch outside of Amrun/Beef and I'd actually like to see people unvote those wagons.

[Soben]

^ I feel similarly.

[Soben]

I don't consider RBT's mention of Mages a slip of any sort, inclusion of a faction called mages could almost be assumed given the history and style of this theme however I strongly dislike the argument between Amrum and RBT it's not productive in any way.

RBT you mentioned earlier you had a strong case and scum-read on LMP, care elaborating into that?

[Soben]

Inclusion of jabs at such as stating you don't give a shit if she believes it's an omgus or not, or her stating 'u mad' lead to nothing but personal conflict. What would be productive is pushing RBT to post more game related content, attempt to attain her thoughts on wagons that have occured, get her to explain her reads, that's what I consider productive.

My thoughts of RBT have already been stated though I have no real issue restating them: I dislike her lack of content and overdefensiveness she showed with just one vote placed on her earlier in the game.

[Soben]

I never stated I believe it was contentless, I stated I believe it's unproductive as it leads towards her gaining a degree of dislike or hatred towards you reducing the likelihood she will respond to legitimate qualms or questions you may have for her.

[Soben]

Fairly Positive Town: WrathChild; Katy;

Chesskid3

Leaning Town:

Mana_Ku (I know he claimed Mason with Chesskid3, but I just can't put Mana_Ku and Chesskid3 in the same category when Mana_Ku is so much scummier)

; Albert B. Rampage; Baby Spice; Zdenek; CryMeARiver

This doesn't work at all, chesskid and Manu_Ku confirm each other as town masons therefore if you find Manu_Ku's play scummy in some way you should have some doubt towards Chesskids allignment. You can't judge them separatly as their allignment is directly related.

[Soben]

But you yourself said you don't think Icey is scum (or one of you, whatever, I hate Hydras).

Scumhunter is exceedingly paranoid of his claim whereas I'm positive he's not scum, don't worry I wear the pants in this hydra. Also, who told you I'm Maxwell?

[Soben]

Bunnylover + Implosion for scum buddies.

[Soben]

I'm too lazy to read back. We are currently voting implosion, correct?

Implosion's annoyance at having to explain himself early on reads as scum motivation to me. Town players don't usually give the whole "I already explained it" pov in the early game especially when they haven't taken a lot of heat. Town generally are willing to explain themselves further to help foster good communication and reiterate their towniness. Anti town players generally are annoyed that they are being asked to explain themselves particularly when they feel they have already given good reason for their actions.

[Soben]

Implosion, I can see where you're coming from, we do indeed have different definitions of what scummy means. So do you believe WC's attack was scummy, do you believe WC's attack makes him likely to be mafia? This is something you continue to refrain from responding to.

As for your vote, you haven't changed your vote from out slot since game-start even though you've stated suspicion of multiple players, check the vote counts. Attempting to go through someones ISO like you did to gandalf doesn't help whatsoever, what do you believe he's done that is scum motivated or is the entire case on him that he hasn't done much throughout the game? If so there are multiple other players who are in the same boat.

Even if it could backfire, I kind of like the idea of attacking lurkers. Even if scum do have some kind of redirection/etc ability, it's a good motivator.

This is really bad reasoning, you're essentially saying "It's fine if we kill lurking town if it means we scare them into posting more".

Although I can understand people saying that BabySpices post are 'bad' I actually have a really strong town-read on her.

[Soben]

Actually, I voted gandalf on page 18 >_> S_B apparently just missed it, and I never noticed that until now.

Oh. You need to unvote before you can revote, that's why. Sorry should have noticed that when I was reading through your posts.

I've given clear scum motivation for many things that he's done, like:
1 -his vote on Pine, an opportunistic jump that had no basis in reality with a jump off that had barely any more basis in reality as others were jumping off
2 -his retroactive justification of pretty much all of his votes, which displays more opportunism
3 -his downright lying in several instances, which means he either completely misread the thread at least 3 times as town, he didn't read closely enough because he was going for attacks on people and didn't care about details as scum, or he intentionally misread as scum. It's probably the second, possibly the third, and the first is just ridiculous.
4 -his vote hopping throughout the game, which apparently left stronger scumreads to go to weaker ones as they got wagoned (for example LMP -> pine, and LMP -> beefster, and even beefster -> RBT)

1. His vote had a reasonable basis, Pine stopped posting when pressured and he pointed that out.
2. Changing of reads and releasing information of why you're chaning your vote isn't a scum-tell.
3. I need to re-read into this more and have a discussion with S about it, but it looks like a valid point.
4. Vote hopping is certaintly not a scum-tell if anything it occurs more from town as scum don't like the attention it gives them. I don't see voting your weaker FoS over voting your stronger one a scum-tell, there's close to no scum-motivation for doing so.

I also sort of understand what you're saying about the lurker point, but I'm not saying that all the lurkers are town. If they're town, hopefully they'll be motivated. If they refuse to stop lurking, then they're probably likely mislynches anyway. If they're scum, then woo, dead scum.

You were saying that attacking lurkers is a good idea even though there's redirection, the fact that the players getting attacked are lurkers changes nothing and would lead to the following occurances:
1. Attacked lurker is town, they die we don't hit mafia.
2. Attacked lurker is mafia, they attack is redirected, we don't hit mafia.

[Soben]

Having some hydra issues, should have it sorted in the next 48 hours and one or both of us will resume posting then, apologies in advance.

[Soben]

regfan and i dealt with our hydra issues. We both share the interest in forming a town alliance this game that votes and works together so that scum don't direct the lynch. People who we think would be good members of said alliance: ABR, Manaku, CHesskid, WrathChild. We are interested in sharing our top 5 scum reads and coming to some sort of consensus about our scum reads so we can as a group direct a lynch towards a good target.

Here are our top 5 scum reads:

1. implosion
2. bunnylover
3. zdenek
4. lmp
5. riceballtail
(alternate: dryfit)

[Soben]

1. No, he did not stop posting.
2. Opportunism is a scumtell, and only explaining his votes after making them illustrates that he may have just been following other people when he first made them. It's a way to be able to bandwagon without having to justify your own votes.
4. Look at his Pine vote. He had been talking about LMP for most of the game, with only one mention of pine in the past (to call him town) and then switched votes. Later, he changes from LMP to beefster (again, he talked about LMP a fair amount in early game but had been ignoring him for some time at this point) with only one previous mention of beefster. He then explains his beefster vote. He still hasn't explained his RBT vote, just that he's "that obviously scummy." In other words, he's sheeping without justifying his own votes. The key to the scum motivation in it is that he voted them as they were bandwagoned (e.g. opportunism), combined with the fact that in exactly one of his votes had he mentioned the person he voted for before the voting post. He's making these scumreads up on people that are being bandwagoned so he can join the fun, not voting for people that he thinks are wizards.

1. Yes, Pine did.
2. I disagree. Voting without attaching reasoning allows a player to get a better reaction from the person being voted.
4. SGR-> Pine switch - This switch is completely understandable, I can't believe i have to repeat this, but if player x is getting pressured and then x player x stops posting and replying then voting player x is valid.
LMP -> Beefster switch - More information was being revealed about Beefster at the time and I can understand people viewing him as scummy as I myself was at one point therefore his switch to Beefster is minimally related to his allignment.

Well first of all, there isn't even a guarantee of redirection (plus the only type of redirection that would really matter would be bus driving, as opposed to direct redirection targeting a single person's action). I've also (I think somewhere) expressed the possibility of limited-use protective abilities in scum hands, which could make this plan a good thing. The worst thing that happens is that we injure or lose a town-looking town-aligned player but learn about scum abilities. However, we could also have benefits (like pushing lurkers to post more, avoiding mislynches, killing scum, making scum use limited-use abilities). Essentially, it's setup speculation. But I feel like it isn't as risky as, say, the "claim at L-1" plan.

This is just a really long way of saying you wouldn't care less if lurker-town died which makes no sense considering the fact you haven't attempted to push any of them for information. Not once have you attempted to question any of them.

SGR, an alliance is merely a group of players who have town-reads on each other voting in a bloc.

Snake, you merely state you dislike the idea of people working together in a group, not that it's a scum-tell however you seem to find it valid reasoning to vote someone 41 pages into the game. There's no such thing as 5 people 'controlling the game' just moving in a more direct path which is actually optimal for the town. Right now we haven't had a real bandwagon or near lynch apart from Pine which revolved around an awful case, this allows an opportunity for us to actually move somewhere.

[Soben]

Snake, at some point town needs to group together and trust each other. It's not about forming cliques, but it certainly is about controlling the game. I mean just look. We are on page 47, its day 1, and there are no viable wagons that are close to lynch. It speaks to the disorganization of the town thusfar. Regfan and I think it would be beneficial to try and make sure that town players (or at least a core group of players who are mostly town) are the impetus behind any wagons. I think your reaction of not liking any town alliance that you yourself are not in is a town tell and that you rightly should be skeptical of us for it. However, we do need to get ourselves going here...

[Soben]

Of those 3 you mention, we'd be willing to lynch RBT. I can see reasons why people suspect Snake/Gandalf but I am not convinced either of those are scum as of yet. We still support an implosion lynch. We are unmoved by his latest attempts to appear town.

[Soben]

I'm fine with that, will have to consult with R though. He very much wants to hang implosion last I talked with him.

[Soben]

Still wanna tell me he stopped posting? There was a span of less than two hours between his posts, and a span of less than 40 minutes before gandalf jumped on pine for not posting like a hawk.

Pine was rapid-fire responding to every comment, then states that he is removing the game from bookmarks, ie still staying on the site while not replying to this thread, sure it may have been 40 minutes but intention to avoid the was stated and was the reason Gandalf voted him. You're continously attempting to push Gandalf even when your points are proven wrong, that's why you're scum.

As for point two, gandalf has never said anything once about any of his votes being for reactions, before or after the votes. All of his votes have been because he claims to have found the people he was voting for scummy. And why are you saying that he's doing this to test for reactions?

Every vote is for a reaction, you watch how they respond, either change your opinion on them or keep your vote.

First of all, lies, I've definitely questioned at least snake. And would you rather lurker-town be nightkilled or lurker-town be mislynched? Also, why are you straw-manning what I was saying? How does "killing them at night is better than using lynches on them and we might hit scum too" translate to "implosion couldn't care less if lurker-town died?"

Yes, you've questioned Snake, placed him on your scum-list and avoided adding any reasoning behind it. I rather lurker-town don't get ML'd or night-killed to be perfectly honest, I'd much rather have my FoS's lynched/nightkilled and I find it hard to understand why you don't believe the same. I translate it to that because you openely state that you don't mind them being killed at night.

Fairly positive town:

chesskid, mana-ku, iceycupcake,

soben

, sgraaize.

Scum reads:

gandalf

, RBT, snake, baby spice.

Why are you trying to justify his actions and his votes? Isn't that his job? Aren't you interfering with my ability to see his reaction to my vote?

If gandalf flips scum, IGMEOY. This could be a chainsaw.

Thanks for making my job easier.

CMAR, any chance you can be persuaded to move to implosion today? If not I'm also comfortable with a RBT lynch.

[Soben]

So I'm not allowed to change my reads when new information comes up... cool, cool, that makes sense. I guess I'll keep those reads for the entire game no matter what happens. According to you, Soben, that would probably make me look like town...

Alright, you haven't attempted to state that any of my last posts are scummy however you turn around and say if your leading FoS flips scum, which you would expect then a player you read as town is someone you'll be keeping your eye out on. Either you find my last few posts suspicious ignoring Gandalfs allignment or you don't. That's all it comes down to, there's no middle ground.

Do you know, for a fact, that gandalf thinks this way? This may be what you think about votes when you vote; that does not mean that it's what gandalf does.

Yes, Gandalf is a chronic vote-hopper he moves his vote around very often in every game.

How do you know that the same thing isn't happening here as in cold war mafia? If people continue to lurk, they're likely to become lynches regardless of their alignment. This is still a strawman because you're completely ignoring the reason why i'm "okay" with them being killed at night; because it's better than the alternative.

Are you honestly attempting to say "Lurker that are town have been lynched in the past so it might happen again", seriously? A player is not lynched due to the amount of content he produces but rather how scummy he is percieve. Lurkers are prodded, questioned, interrogated and if they continue to lurk replaced.

[Soben]

Not true, at all. If gandalf were to flip town, I wouldn't find anything overly suspicious about your giant defense of him. If he flips scum, then I would. You stating that there's no middleground is a false dichotomy.

This I don't understand. Either you find my defence of him to be reasonable and legitimate or you don't. There

seriously

is no middle ground.

This does not answer the question of whether he thinks votes are for reaction purposes. It's also even more defense of gandalf. I like how you ignored that point.

This DOES answer your question. He changes vote whenever he finds a strong suspect or he gets a reaction needed from the person he's voting. This is a FACT. Sure, it's entirely possible that he could be scum opportunistic voting, but the fact he voted Pine and Beefster is how he plays as town. I'm not "ignoring that point" there's no need for me to state why I'm defending him, it should be obvious, neither S or myself are sold on Gandalf being scum.

I'm saying that lurkers are more likely to be lynched, even though lurking is not indicative of alignment. Sort of what you're saying, except in a way that doesn't make it sound stupid. You can't deny that fact, that lurkers are more likely to be lynched. You also probably won't deny that lurking alone is a nulltell.

Yes, lurking alone is a null-tell.
Yes, lurkers have a slightly higher chance of getting lynched.

No, this does not mean they should be NK-fire targets, your FoS's should STILL be.

[Soben]

I'm saying that I see a possible associative tell between you and gandalf.

That specifically states

Stand-alone tells are most accurate and useful early in the game.

So why did you feel the need to bring up a possible linkage between Gandalf and myself when you state you have a strong town-read on me?

Rather than respond to this, because it may be partially true, I'm going to ask you the following: why do you feel the need to state this FOR gandalf? Why can't you let gandalf defend himself?

Simply because he himself doesn't seem active enough to respond. The longer that it takes for the case to be addressed the more time is wasted and the more likely it is that he ends up being a deadline-lynch which is the last thing I want.

If people are doing a mass-attack strategy, then fosses will differ and it would be impossible to both mass-attack a small group of people and have everyone attack fosses. Attacking lurkers would be a way to compromise with someone that everyone can agree about (while scumminess is subjective, lurkiness is objective).

Even if it could backfire, I kind of like the idea of attacking lurkers. Even if scum do have some kind of redirection/etc ability, it's a good motivator.

You also probably won't deny that lurking alone is a nulltell.

So a compromise to kill players that have null-telled is a much better idea then us voting on who we should night-kill via stating and tallying FoS's?

[Soben]

1. So the fact that I'm defending Gandalf is 'noteworthy' and something you needed to bring up today? Seriously?

2. This isn't true at all, there's multiple multiple other players you could be attempting to attain reads on at the moment and you haven't, even when two of your strong town-reads are telling you that Gandalf isn't scum.

3. I don't understand how you can have no strong opinion on what town should do at night, in a setup such as this the night play is almost as important as the day play and you're okay agreeing to have everyone just target lurks to 'see what happens'.

[Soben]

1. It's strange because you go from thinking I'm town to attempting to cast suspicion on me when I start pointing out severe flaws in your case on gandalf.

2. The fact that you never stopped to think through it when people you thought were town were telling you were wrong is the issue.

3. There's no such thing as it working out perfectly, lurkers die at night and they're not any more likely to be scum than anyone else. Wouldn't have a voting system where everyone votes 3 people and the people with the most votes get targetted to be night-attacked be better than attacking lurkers? If so, that's what town where actually doing before you agreed to have lurkers off'ed.

[Soben]

Albert, whats wrong with an implosion lynch?

[Soben]

Strange. R and I both feel that the recent argument between us (specifically R) and implosion would very much help others see what we are seeing with regards to implosion.

"Soben you are interfering with my ability to scumhunt by defending gandalf" - lol wut? That makes no sense whatsoever tbh. Honestly, I feel that at times mafia argue for the sake of arguing. While the same could be said about R's involvement in this past argument, he is incredibly incredibly stubborn and also there was a purpose beyond it....to expose implosion's defensiveness and generally need for bad excuses for his play so far. At some point town-implosion would just say something along the lines of "Soben, you are wrong...I'm going to ignore you for now and move on to actually scumhunting". That is the sane and rational response as town have nothing to hide and eventually would say...meh is this really a fight worth fighting? Perhaps I can prove my towniness through my other actions...namely scumhunting other players. Maybe that will change Soben's mind on me.

I very much feel that when arguments last too long and are over such superficial things that it is quite often scum who just aren't willing to lose an argument. Any lost argument would be evidence they are scum and god forbid nothing is more frightening to scum than looking bad and conceding a few minor points in an argument. I wholeheartedly agree with R and think implosion is scum, but alas if that lynch doesn't happen I'd be willing to support another lynch.

ABR, I see you are voting Zdenek. That is a lynch I could see us getting behind. What do you think of lynching RBT? Also...what about implosion's play makes you pretty sure he's town?

[Soben]

ABR, I think you are wrong. The way he defends himself appears town, but if you look past his well-crafted words and delve into the content of what he is actually saying, I just can't agree with you. I'll have to consult with R with regards to Zdenek, but don't think he would be a terrible lynch either.

[Soben]

So I end up as one of their preferred lynches for the day with them saying nothing about me. By the way, Bunnylover also moved from null to scum with the only comment them making about her being that they think she might be scum buddies with Implosion.

Most of our reasoning actually occurs when we discuss our reads together rather than stating it plainly in the thread which is something we will work towards doing. My read on BunnyLover changed from null to scum due to the massive amount of contradictions that S showed me in Post #426 whereas our scum-read on you was mostly because S believes your posts up until recently have been severely lacking in content.

As far as their argument with Implosion goes. I think Implosion made one good point about Gandalf, the rest varied between fair and poor. Soben has spent along time arguing with Implosion over this. They have essentially ignored the good point that Implosion made

I went back to read through it and noticed that Implosion had massively exaggerated the occurances of Gandalfs misreads, it had only happened once not multiple times as he was trying to make it out to be.

[Soben]

Hey soben, one of your town reads is saying you're wrong... you had better reconsider everything eh?

He then progressed to saying you're on okay lynch but nice jab attempt.

I remember when Fate did an alliance thing in the Naruto game. I think it worked out pretty well. ABR been in an alliance I don't find much to disagree with, but why the other people?

They're our strong town reads who we believe are competent players.

implo posted a big case.

And I pointed out how almost the entire argument was revolving around "Gandalf hopp-voted" which is something Town-Gandalf does.

[Soben]

I agree with Icey, the gandalf wagon is full of fail and likely is an attempt to prevent an implosion or RBT lynch of going through. Even after implosions case on gandalf was torn to shreds he's still continuing to push the lynch instead he's stopped giving reasoning for it. Also notice the vote movement throught the last few pages, people have been jumping on the RBT/Gandalf lynches very quickly in comparison to the previous voting speed.

Town:

ABR, Chesskid, Manu_Ku, SGR, IceyCupcake, CMAR, WrathChild, Baby Spice, Gandalf, Beefster, Dry-Fit.

Null:

inHimshallibe, LMP, BunnyLover, Amrum, Kat, SnakePlussken.

Scum:

Implosion, RBT, Zdenek, PeregrineV.

Spoiler: Read the following quotes:

As I'm thinking about it, I'm ambivalent about ABR's mass-shooting plan. It is obviously possible if we just select one target for scum to protect if they have any sort of protection, and if we select multiple targets same thing since they're unlikely to all be scum,

plus scum could be able to protect or redirect attacks on one of the targets if one of the targets is scum. I still kind of like the idea, though.

If scum only has a limited amount of protective ability, this could use it up. If they don't have any, well, it could eliminate scum roles. Plus, if we target any third parties, they are less likely to be defended.

tl;dr most (not all) of this post:

stop trying to use game mechanics that we do not know the details of as a basis for a plan that would shape the entire game. It's stupid and foolhardy

, and S_B probably has something in place to stop it, and S_B even warned us SPECIFICALLY not to try to break the game.

Even if it could backfire, I kind of like the idea of attacking lurkers.

Even if scum do have some kind of redirection/etc ability, it's a good motivator.

I also sort of understand what you're saying about the lurker point, but I'm not saying that all the lurkers are town. If they're town, hopefully they'll be motivated. If they refuse to stop lurking, then they're probably likely mislynches anyway.

If they're scum, then woo, dead scum.

Well first of all, there isn't even a guarantee of redirection (plus the only type of redirection that would really matter would be bus driving, as opposed to direct redirection targeting a single person's action). I've also (I think somewhere) expressed the possibility of limited-use protective abilities in scum hands, which could make this plan a good thing.

The worst thing that happens is that we injure or lose a town-looking town-aligned player but learn about scum abilities. However, we could also have benefits (like pushing lurkers to post more, avoiding mislynches, killing scum, making scum use limited-use abilities). Essentially, it's setup speculation.

But I feel like it isn't as risky as, say, the "claim at L-1" plan.

I'm saying that lurkers are more likely to be lynched, even though lurking is not indicative of alignment. Sort of what you're saying, except in a way that doesn't make it sound stupid. You can't deny that fact, that lurkers are more likely to be lynched.

You also probably won't deny that lurking alone is a nulltell.

All these show that;

1. Implosion doesn't like setup speculation however is perfectly fine trying something to "See what happens" even if it leads to town-looking town players dying at night.
2. He understands that redirection mean that we're less likely to hit scum yet still wants to create a mass-target system.
3. He understands and states that lurking is a null-tell however still wants to push for lurkers to get targetted rather then his actual reads.

[Soben]

inhimishallbe, what exactly do you have against us? I noticed you had us in your list of people to die. I feel both myself and R have been quite active this game and I'm surprised you read as scum. It would help me to understand where you are coming from so I can try to alleviate any concerns you have about our alignment and to understand your intentions.

[Soben]

It is no coincidence that all three of the current competing wagons are on the ol' death list.

What do you mean by this? You think all 3 wagons are scum? That is incredibly unlikely.

[Soben]

Everything in this game needs to be simplified. 50+ pages is impossible to go through.

I have the night of, I'll see what I can do. I've gone through the first 10 pages so far though.

Pages 1-10

- Icey requests that people vote them before voting elsewhere which is followed by speculation on the purpose of this.
- Gandalf selfvotes and then accuses Pine of overreacting to it.
- SGR complains about the start of the game while stating reads, this follows with votes starting to pile on him and Gandalf.
- ABR questions if everyone has a damaging ability while stating he has multiple, attempts to gain peoples thoughts on organising a mass-attack plan on night one.
- Implosion votes Soben to attempt to reveal their hydra heads, this follows with people attacking him for not placing his vote on someone he suspects
- CMAR believes that Katys accusal of SGR being a wizard was a slip, people read this as a town-slip by CMAR.
- CMAR suggests that if a player is getting lynched they should claim power role or not rather than name claiming.
- Soben states they believe Icey is town but disagrees with voting them due to potential risks involved.
- Discussion occurs over why Soben doesn't follow Iceys request if they believe him to be town, votes start piling on Soben.
- Soben explains that it's fear of Icey being a third party. Discussion occurs over third parties win conditions.
- SGR states intention to create a defence post as well as an analysis on the bandwagon on him which he follows up on.
- An argument occurs between LMP and SGR over SGR reading Pine as too serious.

[Soben]

I'll ALWAYS lynch the person with shitty content over the person producing lots of content day 1 if it's at all close in scumminess. I WILL have a good idea of the content-filled poster's alignment on day 2 or 3. I will NOT have any idea of the active lurker's alignment, and RBT is scummy besides.

Only difference is I can see RBT possibly flipping terribad town, but I can't see implosion flipping town.

[Soben]

Mod as aplayer for that reason makes so much sense it's not even funny. :/

No, read:

""Leave it to me!" one of them said. "Me, Andrius the Vamp-" the poor featureless body hadn't even finished his speech when a gosthly hand appeared out of the jar and grabbed him and devoured in a matter of seconds.
"It seems we can't speak our names."
"Then, let's speak no more nonsense and start hunting those bastards!"
"Yeah" and so, the hunting game began.

Andrius, a vampire aligned with the sorcerers, was killed pregame."

Name claiming = Automatic death, it's the mechanics of the setup not mod as a player.

[Soben]

Unvote, Vote: Magua

Lets test something.

[Soben]

We're both online and considering doing so, give us 10 minutes or so to discuss it.

[Soben]

R and I have decided to hammer. A lot of RBT's play reads as overdefensive and there is some serious wagon hopping all day. She seemed to latch on to defenses about having a legitimate reason to think there is a 3rd party scum team in the game and the fact that people were lurking more than her. She called her play "concise" but most of her posts were of the make up "I want you dead. OMGUS. Die Scum." etc. That's not really being concise with asking questions, scumhunting, its just random voting on null tells and hoping to get lucky (if she is town) All of her votes were pretty random and supported tons of different wagons. We find it particularly meh when she jumped on gandalf after not mentioning him previously whatsover.

Despite all of this R believes there is ~60% chance RBT flips town here, while I think its more like 50/50. We are much much surer on implosion being mafia and we both think implosion is scum > 75% of the time here, but given how long this day has been and that this lynch is pretty much inevitable at this point we figured we might as well go ahead and hammer it.

unvote, vote RBT

[Soben]

100% fucing scum hammer
I KNOW WE DIDNT GET TO SEND IN AN ACTION
NOBODY ELSE PROBABLY DID EITHER

THE NEXT FUCKING PERSON WHO HAMMERS LIKE THAT DIES THE NEXT DAY ON POLICY
THERE NEEDS TO BE NOTICE TO SEND ACTIONS IN

GODDAMNIT

The way I've read the rules you can only send in an action either D1 or N1 and it's far more optimal to send it in N1 after a flip occurs therefore I don't see the need to have a delayed time-period to send in actions near the end of the day.

[Soben]

Wait, what.

@Mod, can you confirm that we can use an ability D1 and N1.