Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[Beefster]

Holy Crap! 7 pages already? In ~7 hours?

I've been busy graduating today.

Anyway...
VOTE: chesskid
<South Park Character> appears to be squishing that poor Bulbasaur. And it's waaayyy past Christmas. And policy/random vote.

[Beefster]

I have a simple question, does everyone have at least one damaging ability?

My role PM suggests everyone does.

Yes

[Beefster]

I don't see what's so bad about ABR's question. It makes sense flavorwise that everyone would have a damaging spell. The sorcerers were offensive in SiTMoA; why wouldn't they maintain that status despite the faction flip. Since nobody is vanilla, it naturally follows that all of us would have offensive spells.

UNVOTE: chesskid
He's looking pretty clear to me so far. Nothing out of the ordinary for his posting style.

Acquiring new target.... Back soon. I seem to remember something interesting on page 4.

[Beefster]

Can't I just already tell you I'm town therefore we don't spend 5 pages determining if I am town or scum?
Seriously though. I do believe everyone should vote Icey and unvote her to someone else. Unless your scum. Don't vote her if your scum.

ITT we do what we are told because we don't use critical thinking

Vote: Bunnylover

This.

VOTE: Bunnylover

[Beefster]

Nope. If you read the rules this time, they say that it is a mostly vanillaless game. Not sure what that means, but w/e.

I did read them. I knew it said mostly. Therefore I question why Beefy thinks there are none.

There isn't a sample vanilla role in the first couple of posts. Proof by moderator-given information.

[Beefster]

That is, unless Snow_Bunny outright says something about that.

[Beefster]

Amrun's post here is a mess of circular logic.

Unvote

VOTE: Amrun
-----

People in my BW:

Fairly Positive Town: NO ONE.
Leaning Town: WC
Null: Katy, Mana_Ku, Gandalf, DryFit. and chesskid
Leaning Scum: InhimshallIbe
Fairly Positive Scum: LynchMePlz

I'm not a big fan of lots of null reads like this- It's understandable that you can't exactly trust everyone, but it seems like you're trying to be too conservative with your accusations- so you avoid getting accused of inconsistency. Plus your analyzing your own wagon, meaning you're biased.
*Weak defense*

What? I thought you voted me before I voted you.
This changes EVERYTHING.

honestly i have no idea which order it came in, nor does it matter

*Trivially conditional accusations*

Oh, BTW: On that same game, you can also see I'm wanting a big-ass RVS, just like in here.

I was town in that game.

I hate to go Meta on your asses, but its either that or getting lynched.

Why so defensive? You're just over halfway toward being lynched. If you're town, you have nothing to lose at this point, nor is there a risk. If you had kept your cool, this would have resolved itself soon. But since you're so keen on defending yourself way before it's necessary...
*Overreaction*

That's three strikes.

Unvote

VOTE: SGR

[Beefster]

Why so defensive? You're just over halfway toward being lynched.

Because I am over-defensive as Town and there's nothing I hate more than being lynched.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

More meta.

This post looks genuinely townie to me. A scum response would have been more subtle.

Unvote

Responses noted. No further questions.

VOTE: Bunnylover

Unvote

VOTE: Icey

Unvote

VOTE: Amrun

This is a fun way to FoS

[Beefster]

Pine is so emotional about this I almost feel he has to be town losing it. I think scum would have dropped it rather than make this point about Icey such a big issue and draw so much attention (and votes).

Personally, I don't see what's so awful about following Icey for the first day. If they have a helpful ability, then it's worth it. If this is some kind of scum ploy then the first day is the time to expose it. There is no way that a moderator puts this much effort into a game and then gives someone an ability that could end the game on day one. That kind of paranoia isn't going to get us anywhere. It's valid not to trust Icey but inflating it into an issue of epic proportions is not helpful to town, if you really are town.

Still waiting for implosion to come and post some relevant content.

This.
I agree.

24- Pine [Healthy] (7) - Zdenek, SGRaaize, IceyCupcake, Amrun, gandalf5166, BabySpice, ABR

We have lots of opportunists here.

Mana: Several on-going games (which I am dead in). Possibly a complete one, but I don't remember. I also checked out his meta for another game, and light-heartedness was a trend. I need to check again to see if srs-bsns freak-the-fuck-out face was used as scum.

Katy: How are Pine's huge piles of AtE making you think town?! Does it really matter? It's her opinion. If you have nothing else against Pine, you have a weak case.

Icey: One head?! Which head?! Your heads have different roles? Are you stupid? Hydra heads always have the same role

Soben: Do your heads have different roles?

Comments in ooc. These questions are just awful. Care to ask more relevant questions?
I stand my ground on Amrun.

MOD: Are ooc tags okay? They ARE dark red. If not, g'head and edit them to italics and I won't do it again.

[Beefster]

Beefster, want to explain how the logic of my one post is circular, and then how that makes you so sure I'm scum?

Didn't see this one. It was hiding quite nicely under a vote D:. My bad.

This

In a more general sense, why has no one but chess addressed ABR's plan to mass-attack one scummy player at night? It could even be modified to "attack whichever of the following players X, Y, and Z are scummiest to you," which would take care of protection problems that chess proposed. However, that makes it less immediately effective but probably more effective long-term. Possible drawback: if one of those players is town, it might give scum an advantage as they could add their attacks in.

I think ABR's proposition should have received more attention than it has. Is protection really an issue against the whole town's attacks? I don't know how protection would function in this game, and I did not play and have not read its predecessors, so perhaps someone who has should weigh in.

This part is a bit WIFOM-y. It kinda traces around to itself.

I suppose it looked more circular when I was skimming through. At first glance it looks like the logic is all over the place since you then change your vote as if you were retracting something in the middle of the post.

I'm still suspicious of your reactions, so I will keep my vote where it is.

[Beefster]

No, he said I had circular logic. I asked him how, and he said, "Well, I guess you don't, but I also thought you voted two people in the same post, which is scummy, but you didn't do that either". So basically I never did any of the things he accused me of - but HE has done them, as I pointed out - but still votes for me just because he wants to look consistent.

That is how I read his posts. I'm asking around because I want to see if others read them the same way.

Why so defensive?
It's called reaction testing, my friend. Yes, my initial reasoning wasn't great, but your reaction doesn't seem genuinely townie to me. Even though I have my vote on you, you're panicking over essentially nothing. Mind you there are only 2 votes on you right now. I don't see what the big deal is. You're responding as if you have something to lose.

The other thing that bothers me is that [slight exaggeration]ever since I put my vote on you, I have been your only subject of suspect.[/slight exaggeration] Not much more talk of Pine or IC... Nice OMGUS. I'm not talking the panicking townie type, but the panicking scum type.

I also find it odd that you're only rallying support from specific players, rather than everyone.

I think I have caught scum. MOAR VOTES ON AMRUN PLZ.

Pine is really starting to make me nervous with his self-lynch plan. I have never seen that tactic used by pro-town players.

FoS: Pine

[Beefster]

Finally, a topic-starter (as if we didn't have enough anyway):
-Do you think there are any players with town wincon, but evil alignment?

Sounds like my role PM... The alignments are flipped, so yes. Not sure what you're implying.

Did I stutter?

I'm a

Wight

, a medium-strength sentient undead created to guard the Sorcerer's Den. I'll full-claim before I die. Basically, I have a weak attack and an interesting but extremely conditional ability.

Sounds legit to me. Though, you still can't take it as fact. You very well could have been given a fake claim. I felt it was worth mentioning. I think Pine is town though.

I think it would be wise to focus on other players for now. It's nice to use D1 as an information day. If we get through other players and still think Pine is scum, then we can vote him for real.

I think I've pressured Amrun for long enough now. (but I still think he's scum)

Unvote

Aquiring target....

Wait a minute...

For the record, dating back to SitMOAI, and because I vaguely remember someone mentioning it being bad to claim, it's generally only bad to name claim/flavor claim. In that game, I think someone stole people's powers or something when the claimed. But the flavor of Andrius suggests nameclaiming is a no no.

Wouldn't this mean that Pine should get modkilled?...

Anyway...

VOTE: Manu_Ku for not having her own opinion.
VOTE: LMP
Too many inconsistencies.
PEDIT: Looks like OMGUS, but it's not, actually.

[Beefster]

Aw crap. I think I was skimming a bit to much. LMP isn't all that inconsistent.

unvote

VOTE: Mana_Ku

@gandalf: what was the deal with Andrius, then?

[Beefster]

@WrathChild: I didn't doublevote. I just didn't feel like unvoting.

[Beefster]

@Beefster
Can you even fail more than you're doing now? Yes. Take a look at the first game I was ever in... You were scummy, post 430 is making everything much worse. Instead of responding to Amrun good reasons about being suspicious about you, you attack her even more with weaker reasons. That's how I roll. I'm offensive- and I use vote pressure on less noticed players. Besides, his reactions didn't look genuinely townie. Do I really need another reason?
-You're accusing her of being defensive, while she's pointing out why you're suspicious to her. I'm pretty dang used to it. I almost always get lots of votes on D1. He/she was defensive when I first attacked him/her. I really didn't have anything against her reasons; I generally just ignore cases on me until I get close to being lynched. I'm pretty reckless.
-You mentioned that she has only been focusing on you after your vote, while her vote against Pine came afterwards.So she's sheeping now? Good to know
You're just reaching for reasons to keep your vote against her. Spot on. I think she's scum. Do I really need any other reason to keep my vote on?

Responses in ooc.

Really. If you think I'm scummy, just vote me.

I also don't see why you're voting for Pine.

@Amrun: 2 votes in the same post is just a hardcore way to FoS. You might say my retraction of the LMP vote is backtracking, though. And it's a valid accusation, considering the circumstances. But it really isn't what I meant. I skimmed a bit too much while looking through all the ISOs for suspects. It looked like inconsistency at first glance.

[Beefster]

LMP: ITS A TRAP

At least someone here thinks I'm town. Cause I am.

[Beefster]

@Amrun: I haven't been dodging questions. I just haven't seen them. When a game is this active, I don't have time to read over everything meticulously. Chances are good that I'll miss a question if it's hiding in the middle of a paragraph. Really, If you want someone to answer your question, you set it aside in one line with an @ immediately before the person you want to question. It's even more helpful if you bold the name. Chances are even then people will miss your question. That's when you draw attention to it by quoting.

You really can't call me out on missing a question that wasn't obvious.

InHim pretty much read my mind there, then articulated my thought process. Except for the nullread part. That wasn't my thought.

[Beefster]

LMP has his vote on me. You implied that I was an obvmislynch.

Eh. Whatever.

[Beefster]

This is a lie. Quote my vote on you.

Heh. My bad. I could've sworn you shifted your vote to me. Either way, I'm second on your scum list.

[Beefster]

I don't think the claim-lynch strategy will work. I really doubt anyone else will claim now that we are sure it's a bad idea. It's just as easy for a townie to fakeclaim as scum. If it also happens to apply to fakeclaims, then we still won't get anywhere and we'll have mislynched way more than necessary.

It's still a cool idea nonetheless- it just doesn't work in practice.

[Beefster]

BunnyLover, there's really no way you can see his claim and still believe he's mafia, I suggest you move your vote now.

D: I don't see it.

@SGR: Claiming is usually bad if your role says that. Like last game, I was a third party healer, and if I claimed any part of my role I would be deducted points (needed 20 to win.). Actually I have no idea why I am been called town, nothing I have done this game (in all my 2 or 3 post?) should have shown that I am town :<. Although Regean(Soben), had a point about me been straight forward, I've only done it when I was a bulletproof Townie.

@Town:So I guess we can't claim. Their might be another way around claiming.

@Town: You guys are all crazy. Obviously the mod is in the game

Unvote, Vote: Snow_Bunny

.

WUT?

Unvote

VOTE: Bunnylover

Unvote

VOTE: IceyCupcake

Unvote

VOTE: Mana_Ku

[Beefster]

Mana-Ku: Town. Period.

Zdenek: Null. I flip flop on him a little. Overall, he has said very little, and I dislike his "placeholder vote." He has no suspects besides the lurker, really? But I liked the things he saw in Pine that he found scummy - because I found those same things scummy. Pine wasn't scum, so this drops back to null since I dislike some other things he has said.

Wrathchild: Leaning town. He flip flopped on me and very quickly. He said something and then dropped it once he realized it was unfounded. I generally see this as a town tell, since scum are more interested in looking consistent.

Nice town reads. You got any scum reads?

[Beefster]

to clarify

I have 100% accurate mod given info that Mana is aligned with the sorcerers.

Have a nice day.

Pedit:
FUck off, asshole

Hmm. Didn't know that. You look pretty legit this time, so I will

Unvote

VOTE: Bunnylover

I really should read ALL of the new stuff before posting.

[Beefster]

Also, does nobody find it interesting that Beefster comments about Amrun posting town reads, when that was a request?

I don't like it when people make a post of only town and null reads. C'mon, there's got to be some scum reads to show the rest of the class...

[Beefster]

You also know perfectly well that Soben asked for my opinoin on those three players individually.

I do? It didn't look like a direct response to me.

[Beefster]

Beefster makes shitty attacks on me all day, I tell him they're shitty, and I'm scum? Okay.

Methinks you should re-evaluate your stance.

You're scum because you have never responded in a genuinely townie way. Your reactions have all appeared deliberate and fabricated.

[Beefster]

Wraith has already given his reads on me and Beefster, Icey. Try reading.

This is vaguely a scum slip- it's definitely a stretch. Proceed with caution...
Typically, townies don't read very meticulously because they just need to go with gut reads and the gist of things. Scum tend to be more observant- and they tend to nitpick.

I, for one, have not been reading closely. Take my words with caution. It's not a catch-all rule by any means.

[Beefster]

@Wrathchild: If you're confident that the attack won't affect everyone indeterminately, then make an obvious fakeclaim. If you die, then we know to outright not claim.
Not that it REALLY matters. We could just scumhunt the normal way. Since all of us

should

have damaging spells (according to ABR), we can take advantage of that instead of abusing some random guy's role/ a mechanic. (I don't care which it is, honestly)

[Beefster]

@Beef #741: Wait, you are advocating townies that don't read carefully, even admitting to not reading carefully yourself? Heck, I've missed a few things things in this game and gone back and caught them on subsequent passes, but still would never suggest that not-reading carefully is a town-tell. It's your responsibility as town to read carefully. Just take my whole last debate about Pine's death and SGR's plan, I didn't read the vampire death scene carefully because I usually skim flavor and it lead to a huge distraction. Such a distraction is not helpful to town (maybe it will end up providing some sort of info later as a discussion point), I made a mistake. The bottom line is not-reading carefully = bad for town.

I'm just lazy. I miss details and I really don't care about details.
I'm actually more advocating that scum tends to nitpick- and to nitpick, one must read very closely. I told you it was a stretch.
There's also the other side- the way too lazy to read properly side. That would be me. These people tend to be town, but not always.
Interpret it as you will.

@Beef #743: It's quite clear that you're not reading carefully, because in Post #725 I state that I am NOT confident the Claim = Death is not a mechanic.

Well then. Good to know.

UNVOTE

*applause* Bravo. Good choice. I am town, after all.

[Beefster]

Beefster, reading the thread is not a scumtell and you're retarded and/or scummy for saying so.

It's an insult I'm used to. But nope. It's all wrong. I'm quite intelligent, thank you. And I'm town.

All good town read the thread, looking for scum. It's something you ought to try emulating, even though you're scum.

Being town is not an excuse to not read the thread.

ITT I am called scum for reading the game. Smh

I read the thread and look for scum. I just don't home in on details. I often just read up to a post I want to respond to, respond to it, post, then continue briskly reading through the thread.

Really people. Look at my meta. I generally don't care much for it, but with some players that play unorthodox, like chesskid or gandalf (or myself), it REALLY helps to make out deviations in typical playstyle.

I get mislynched on D1... A lot. Not that it really matters.

Town
Scum

You could also check me out in SiTMoA II and OoT Mafia. I survived a bit better in those.

[Beefster]

*Groan*
More votes on me.

Beefster, I don't care if you're lazy town. All lazy people are not town, and twisting posts to mean something you want them to, and then saying you didn't read when your case falls apart because it makes no sense, is not a towntell.

NOT being lazy is not a scumtell.

Point taken. I am town though.

[Beefster]

@Gandalf: I generally don't defend myself much against votes alone. It's a wasted effort IMO. I figure since I'm town, it will naturally resolve itself at some point.
I do, however, defend myself against cases that are total crap.

Such as this defense against a load of nitpicks and misrep: (And sheeping)

Don't like that he answered questions asked of someone else.

#1: Quote times that I have done that.
#2: That's not a scumtell. I do it all the time.
#3: Green Jello

Also don't like the use of ooc tags in someone elses quotes to do it. Smacks of trying to hide comments from iso reads.

Really? You're attacking me for THAT?

Claims reaction testing for a rubbish case.

Fine. I'll admit it wasn't initially intended to be reaction fishing, despite it turning out that way. I still didn't like the way Amrun reacted to my case. 'sides, cases early in the day always suck compared to cases later in the game.

I also think he's making up scumtells to suit who he wants to vote for. (Voting twice in a post, reading/not reading the thread)

Nah. I was pointing out tendencies. I thought it was interesting. I wasn't really planning on using it legitimately against her. (Once again, I told you it was a stretch.) Also, note where my vote is right now... Right. It's not currently on Amrun.

About voting twice: I forgot to unvote. What's so scummy about that?

Don't see a pro-town person behind these actions.

Sure. I play in a somewhat anti-town manner, even though I have town intentions. I'm still town.

Unvote

VOTE: Baby Spice
Not liking the nitpicking and misrep. You've been sheeping a lot, too. (Like right now)

[Beefster]

I am starting to doubt a little and have Beefster as possibly bad town.

Bingo.

[Beefster]

unvote, vote: Amrun

Had about enough of her attention-seeking and dropping Beefster's name every 5 posts. We're Day 1, dear. You don't have a guilty on him. Let it go. But I think you're scum anyway, because you try too hard and there's a dark cloud following every post you make.

Finally. Someone sees what I'm getting at, here.

Unvote

VOTE: Amrun

@Baby_Spice: Sheeping/BWing. Same thing really in my book. You've been sheeping the primary wagons with little more than BS explanations.

[Beefster]

It wasn't reaction fishing, it was reaction fishing, it wasn't reaction fishing. Pick one.

It wasn't initially reaction fishing, but it turned out to elicit a useful response. As go early cases. Bluntly said, some of the earlier reasons are crap.

I also think he's making up scumtells to suit who he wants to vote for. (Voting twice in a post, reading/not reading the thread)

Nah. I was pointing out tendencies. I thought it was interesting. I wasn't really planning on using it legitimately against her. (Once again, I told you it was a stretch.) Also, note where my vote is right now... Right. It's not currently on Amrun.

Tell me again who has to fake scum hunting and make up cases on people? I forget.

I don't see your point. I have told you it wasn't intended to be used for an attack. It was meant to be food for thought. Take it as you will.

About voting twice: I forgot to unvote. What's so scummy about that?

You tell me, you're the one who seemed to vote someone for it.

I've been doing it quite a bit in this game. I thought it was an awesome way to FoS.

Don't see a pro-town person behind these actions.

Sure. I play in a somewhat anti-town manner, even though I have town intentions. I'm still town.

We can only judge you by your actions, not your claimed intentions, and if you play in an anti-town manner then your anti-town.

Doesn't make me scum, though. There's quite a difference.

[Beefster]

14- Beefster [Healthy] (5) - Amrun, LynchMePls, ManaKu, BabySpice, gandalf5166

:snapshot:

I see what you're getting at. There's gotta be at least 2 scum on that wagon. In fact, there's a good chance that all but ManaKu are scum... I haven't exactly liked the way gandalf has been playing, at least lately. We shall see what happens, then.

[Beefster]

Beefster, do you agree with Amrun's assessments of your play?

More or less. I'm not so much proud of it as I have simply accepted it as fact and moved on.

I still don't like how he backed off my wagon.

[Beefster]

I was definitely town in Open 298.

My scum games are Execution Mafia, New Designers Mafia, and X-Files Mafia, in order of most recent to least recent.

The way you stated this is reminiscent of the gambler's fallacy. (You suggest that because you were scum in so many games, you couldn't

possibly

be scum again.) Were you town in any other games?

I'm not liking your reactions to ABR's questions. You really look like you're trying to hide something. Your responses are far to deliberate and un-genuine.

[Beefster]

I don't think the claim-lynch strategy will work. I really doubt anyone else will claim now that we are sure it's a bad idea. It's just as easy for a townie to fakeclaim as scum. If it also happens to apply to fakeclaims, then we still won't get anywhere and we'll have mislynched way more than necessary.

It's still a cool idea nonetheless- it just doesn't work in practice.

AKA: Please don't try that plan guys, it's really bad for us scumz.

No. It just doesn't work. Keep in mind that we have nightkills, too. Nights will be more productive than wild goose chasing with a plan that may not necessarily work. If you attack the player with the role that enables the claim-kill, then the method won't work anymore.
I'm telling you, it will lead to more mislynches than scum lynches.

Also, does nobody find it interesting that Beefster comments about Amrun posting town reads, when that was a request?

I don't like it when people make a post of only town and null reads. C'mon, there's got to be some scum reads to show the rest of the class...

Beefster is reaching for anything he can to distract from his wagon. And the stretch is SCARY.

This is vaguely a scum slip- it's definitely a stretch. Proceed with caution...

I like to point out obscure things. You can interpret it however you want; it just gives me peace of mind to bring up obscure things no matter how ridiculous they are.

I like taking a look at the situation from angles nobody else is willing. Every game needs a good VI. It gets me lynched about half the time, but I really don't care. When I flip town, you will be looking back at some of my posts and say, "y'know, this might sound crazy, but I think Beef had a good point back there."

I do not get the ABR defense of Beefster at all. The back and forth with Amrun the last 2 pages is all noise with nothing useful.

For the record: ABR is not technically defending me. He's questioning Amrun because he doesn't like her case on me.

[Beefster]

Still dodging all my questions, ABR?

I'm not sure you really know what it means to dodge a question. (Let alone ALL of them) Dodging questions =/= not answering them. ABR (and myself) have not been answering questions for one reason or another (perhaps he didn't see it, and thus, didn't know there was a question to answer). That's a null-tell in my book.

Here's an example of dodging a question:
Q: What do you think of Amrun?
A: Amrun has been attacking Beefster for quite a while, but I think Beefster is town.

or another more generic one:
Q: Mr. President, what do you propose to do with the national debt?
A: The debt is a problem, but if every child in America was given a proper education, life would be so much better.

The difference between these and not answering questions- dodging a question acknowledges that it's there, then quickly changes the subject to avoid divulging excess information. Not answering a question usually entails not knowing there was a question to be answered.

Not everyone reads as closely as you do. You gotta help the less observant of us and bring to attention the questions you want us to answer. Imagine if you were president, and I gave you 10 questions to answer, but didn't leave you enough room between them to answer them individually- and just interrupted you before you could finish your first sentence... EVERY TIME. Now imagine you miss a couple questions after trying to remember them all. What would be your response if I said, "Answer my questions!"? I'd hardly call that dodging... and that's exactly what you've been doing to us the the entire game.

[Beefster]

@Amrun, and really everyone: Quit burying questions in the middle of paragraphs. If you want someone to answer a question, you need to put it out in the open.

[Beefster]

Not answering a question could also be that you don't consider the question relevant enough to answer.

[Beefster]

Interesting (unrelated) sidenote:
At the rate we're going, D1 could have more pages than it did in OoT Mafia if we use the whole time.

[Beefster]

When you respond to the post but not to the question, the natural assumption is dodge.

...Or lack of importance. Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

That's like saying that all doors have windows on them... So when you come across a windowless door, you say it's not a door because it doesn't have a window on it.

[Beefster]

I don't think Beefster should use phrases like "circular logic" without properly explaining what he means

You're probably right. We all have different definitions for things. Leads to all sorts of misrep.

[Beefster]

^ Yay! I can be lazy! ^

[Beefster]

You got that right. Thanks for reminding me why I signed up for this game.

[Beefster]

Sorry about the minimialist posting- catching up now.

1- 1-CryMeARiver- null leaning scum, with stuff like this http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p3065175
2- gandalf5166 – null leaning null- wary of single sentence playstyle, but good vibes
3- chesskid3 – playstyle seems scummy, but claiming guaranteed town
4- Albert B. Rampage – townish- creepy avatar face, but like the feel of the posts
5- Riceballtail- null, need more
6- Katy*-townish- liking Katy post, want more
7- Bunnylover- getting scum vibes (this vs this, for example.
8- IceyCupcake- null- jester-like softclaim + request- like the active posting part, unsure on the style
9- Amrun-leaning town- like the activity and details of thoughts
10- Dry-fit- null, need more
11- SnakePlissken- null, need more
12- WrathChild- null (in general like the town of the posts, but spends wayyy too much time discussing obviously bad claim plan)
13- Soben- town (getting almost 90% agreement with posts)
14- Beefster*- leaning scum (you HAVE to read the posts, unless, you know, YOU don’t have too)
15- PeregrineV- keeping up with game, needs to post more
16- BabySpice*- null leaning town- like what I read so far, want more
17- LynchMePls- null, want more (don’t like early posts as much as later posts, also too much time talking about badplan)
18- Zdenek- null, need more
19- Mana_Ku- null leaning town, like style, want more
20- inHimshallibe- null leaning null- relevant posts but don’t like single sentence style
21- SGRaaize*- null leaning town (like activity, don’t like some content, like activity)
22- implosion*- null, need more
23- Feysal*- null, need more
*Participating in the Icey vote-unvote-a-thon

Okay... There were 900 posts at that point. How can you have just about everyone as null? Trying to keep your books open, I see.

FoS: Peregrine

[Beefster]

@CMAR- Did a read, then a re-read for overall interactions, then an ISO for specifics.

Also, I think the mod was just going with the flow and showing where the vote was instead of meaning anything greater.

@Soben- I initally thought about it, but in the interest of actually catching up and posting content, decided to forgo stuff like

"Ohhh- breadcrumb?"
and
"Does this mean you get 13 votes?"

And I've addressed topical stuff, I think, in the respective person. But, if you'd like my specific opinion about something earlier in the (game) day, please ask.
re:SRG- He was the first to gather votes, and they seemed justified at first, as did the ones that went to Pine. But, he seemed to respond to his voters enough to lose the wagon. Didn't like the meta-talk, liked the wall posts and reads, and like the activity level.

@WC- like the vote count analysis, but agree with Inhim about it not determining alignments at this point. But, I like having VCAs and referring to them later.

Ugh. This post is just awful. Focusing on the RVS? Try looking at the recent. It's generally more useful.

unvote

VOTE: IC

unvote

VOTE: Peregrine

I'm gonna give Amrun a little cooldown time and shift the perspective a bit. Amrun might be a better vig option, anyway. She's taking the game way too seriously.

[Beefster]

Supposedly, we all have damaging spells. I know I do.

[Beefster]

My point is that you wanting me vigged for, in your own words, taking the game too seriously, is laughable.

Do you just ignore all the reasons I've made in the past? Obviously there's more to it.

[Beefster]

Oh wait. I thought you were adressing me. Never mind that last post. XD

[Beefster]

@CMAR- Did a read, then a re-read for overall interactions, then an ISO for specifics.

Also, I think the mod was just going with the flow and showing where the vote was instead of meaning anything greater.

@Soben- I initally thought about it, but in the interest of actually catching up and posting content,

decided to forgo

stuff like

"Ohhh- breadcrumb?"
and
"Does this mean you get 13 votes?"

And

I've addressed topical stuff, I think, in the respective person

. But, if you'd like

my specific opinion about something earlier in the (game) day, please ask

.
re:SRG- He was the first to gather votes, and they seemed justified at first, as did the ones that went to Pine. But, he seemed to respond to his voters enough to lose the wagon. Didn't like the meta-talk, liked the wall posts and reads, and like the activity level.

@WC- like the vote count analysis, but agree with Inhim about it not determining alignments at this point. But, I like having VCAs and referring to them later.

Ugh. This post is just awful. Focusing on the RVS? Try looking at the recent. It's generally more useful.

unvote

VOTE: IC

unvote

VOTE: Peregrine

I'm gonna give Amrun a little cooldown time and shift the perspective a bit. Amrun might be a better vig option, anyway. She's taking the game way too seriously.

Ugh. This post is just awful. Failing to read? Try reading. It's generally more useful.
Look, I've even bolded the confusing parts.

Honestly, it looks like you just threw that in at the last minute to make your post seem useful. The bolded parts are so incredibly general that they don't really have any meaning.

And I like the fact Amrun is taking it seriously. It's a game to

play

to

have fun

and to

win

.

Those 2 sentences have nothing to do with each other. Bus your scumbuddy already.

[Beefster]

Implo, Amrun, gandalf made the top 3. Choose who dies.

My order of preference:

CryMeARiver
implosion

Hey there. Provide your case on me asswipe.

Well, not voting you yet, so don't need a case. However, certain things I didn't like:

Not necessarily. You've soft-FoS'd him out of nowhere. Reasons generally help with that sort of thing.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... #p3064692- It is much more preferable to lynch scum than to mislynch.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... #p3065175- defending the above post

How is defending a post a scumtell?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... #p3078599- resorting to name calling

That isn't a scumtell.

Which posts are you talking about? Linking to pages doesn't exactly help anyone see your point.
Please quote and/or link to posts.

[Beefster]

[quote=SGR]Also, why do you think Icey is scum?[/quote]I don't. It's part of the give-Icey-votes-because-of-his-alleged-role plan.

[Beefster]

I'm not sure you really know what it means to dodge a question. (Let alone ALL of them) Dodging questions =/= not answering them. ABR (and myself) have not been answering questions for one reason or another (perhaps he didn't see it, and thus, didn't know there was a question to answer). That's a null-tell in my book

This looks like buddying to my small idiotic mind.

It really isn't. Amrun had been throwing around the term for quite some time. It just so happened that at that point, I got so annoyed with his stupid "scum tell" so I had to establish my stance regarding "dodging questions."

[Beefster]

You still scummy, though >:(

Well atm, at least. If your claimed pattern continues, I'll be town in a RL day or two.

[Beefster]

*Checks out Implosion*
*Notices a question to answer*

What did you mean here by "get through other players?" Why would we push on other players to the extent where we could force them to claim just to go back to pine?

I like to investigate many players throughout the day (Mainly D1) to get their reactions to situations and get a good number of indicative posts out of them. I say it's a generally good idea to gather a good amount of information before going for a lynch- especially that early in the day. Once you've interrogated a good number of players, then you can go in for a lynch.

@CMAR: Obviously, I want Amrun dead in some way or another... If an Amrun lynch isn't going to happen, I would rather lynch gandalf than Implosion if it came down to it. I honestly think Implosion is town.

And an unrelated side comment...

Sweedish Null: Gandalf

I think you mean "Swiss null." Switzerland->Swiss, Sweden->Swedish

[Beefster]

The way you answer to every accusation, its so townie and so scummy at the same time. It looks as if you're Townie who knows he is saying Townie stuff but on the other hand it sounds like you're Mafia who is just trying to act cool under pressure andAIGJAFDOGKAOFDASOFAKOGAKPDGALPGL

That sure explains why I get mislynched a lot. Thanks for the insight.

[Beefster]

I don't think the claim-lynch strategy will work. I really doubt anyone else will claim now that we are sure it's a bad idea. It's just as easy for a townie to fakeclaim as scum. If it also happens to apply to fakeclaims, then we still won't get anywhere and we'll have mislynched way more than necessary.

It's still a cool idea nonetheless- it just doesn't work in practice.

I think it's time to explain my thought process regarding this. (I keep forgetting that I have unorthodox thought processes, so I figured people would be able to fill in the blanks)

I had thought about this even before Pine was killed, BTW

What if the person at L-1 refuses to claim? You've hit a dead end. You either proceed to lynch him or you target someone else. You haven't accomplished anything by doing this.
Keep in mind that it is IMPOSSIBLE to truly force a claim. What can you use to enforce it? A day power you could've used earlier anyway?

Also consider the possibility that it either doesn't apply to fakeclaims or it's a role that doesn't have to kill claimers. You get that person to claim, but they don't die. In either case, it hasn't proven anything. FYI, Town can fakeclaim too.

There's no way to reliably use it to get infinite lynches. [D&D reference]It's not a brutal 3 vorpal dagger we're talking about here. It's more like a vorpal greataxe.[/D&D reference] (The first gives you a 4-sided die: you reroll anything 3 or lower and add another roll for each 4 rolled, ie infinite damage. The second gives you a 12-sided die that you only get to reroll and add the total when you get a 12)

[Beefster]

Peregrine is scared, Methinks. POST SOMETHING, LURKER.

BTW: Yeah, Amrun has pretty much been tunneling me for the last RL week. That's also part of why I think she's scum. I have long failed to mention that... earlier.

[Beefster]

such as his argument that rereading = Scum-tell, what the fuck?

No. Not really. I argue that reading meticulously is something that scum tends to do more than town. Remember that it's much harder to lie consistently than to simply tell the truth- and thus scum needs to be more careful about reads and ensure that they're consistently lying.

[Beefster]

... And thus, they need to read more closely.

[Beefster]

43 pages for a D1 lynch is beyond overkill for a swingy game like this.

Clearly you haven't seen OoT mafia.
But yes, I mostly agree.

[Beefster]

Do we put lynch plans in our damage list, too? I take it we do.

Damage:
1. Amrun
2. Baby Spice
3. Peregrine

[Beefster]

No. It just doesn't work. Keep in mind that we have nightkills, too. Nights will be more productive than wild goose chasing with a plan that may not necessarily work. If you attack the player with the role that enables the claim-kill, then the method won't work anymore.
I'm telling you, it will lead to more mislynches than scum lynches.

This is assuming that the scum have no redirection or protection abilities.

Good point. I hadn't thought of that.

Damage list plz.

[Beefster]

Unless you find RBT overwhelmingly town right now, vote him.

I'd like to give it a bit more time. I have a more neutral read on RBT atm. I'd like to see everyone's top scumpicks before compromising that far.

[Beefster]

This is an excellent case on gandalf. Some of the points are

slightly

exaggerated, but they are great points nevertheless.

Gandalf has been playing pretty lightheartedly, yes, (It had me thinking he was town for a while) but I think in his case it's pretty much a null tell. What I legitimately dislike is how opportunistically he's been playing...
I have no problem with lynching gandalf today. (Well, except for the fact that I also want Amrun dead, but really that's another story)

I still want a response from Peregrine. I will move my vote over when the time is right.

[Beefster]

@Mana_Ku: Out of curiosity, what exactly did you fix?

[Beefster]

I'm leaning town on RBT... sorta. It's hard to tell.

[Beefster]

RBT is a confusing read for me. Meta makes her look townish, but some other aspects make her look kinda scummy.

[Beefster]

Actually, you said his post made no sense, not that it was useless. But Beefster's post was worse that that, it was downright scummy so your lack of any real comment on it is suspicious.

However, your comment to me was an attack, containing as it did a misrepresentation.

RBT, third party of some sort.

WUT?

I just felt like disproving CMAR by saying that I didn't think that RBT wasn't outright scummy. LRN 2 CONTEXT.

[Beefster]

decided to forgo

[early day1 joke/random posts]
And

I've addressed topical stuff, I think, in the respective person

. But, if you'd like

my specific opinion about something earlier in the (game) day, please ask

.
quote]Honestly, it looks like you just threw that in at the last minute to make your post seem useful. The bolded parts are so incredibly general that they don't really have any meaning.

If the words "If you would like my specific opinion about something earlier in the (game) day, please ask" doesn't have meaning for you, then I can't really help you.
Perhaps this will help: http://translate.google.com/#

And I like the fact Amrun is taking it seriously. It's a game to

play

to

have fun

and to

win

.

Those 2 sentences have nothing to do with each other. Bus your scumbuddy already.

Let's use the Socratic method here.
Why do you think Amrun is taking the game seriously?
Do you think Amrun is playing the game?
Why do you think Amrun is playing the game?
Do you think Amrun has fun when she takes the game seriously?
Do you think Amrun has fun when she wins?

First of all: You don't really have to be playing seriously to have fun or win, especially in a swingy game like this. I thought my earlier comment would be enough to point that out, but apparently it wasn't.

Now I will respond with the Socratic method for the lulz.
Would you agree that Amrun is being far too defensive?
Do you always ask questions with such obvious answers?
Why do we have a moderator?
Do you think Batman has fun? What about the Joker? Are

you

having fun?
Doesn't everybody like winning?

And for the clear cut answers you probably wanted:
Amrun is making a bigger-than-necessary deal out of everything.
Yes.
It's mod-given information
I don't know (ask her yourself), and I think it's very well possible to have a great time and be off the wall ridiculous.
Not necessarily. It isn't all about the result. The journey to winning is fun if you play right, but if it's all about winning and not about fun, you're doing it wrong. Games are meant to be enjoyed. I think a more accurate term for winning is

satisfying

.

[Beefster]

@Baby Spice:

...I really don't see anyone calling RBT town.

post

post

I'm leaning town on RBT... sorta. It's hard to tell.

It honestly surprises me that you can't go back and look at things yourself.

Nice OMGUS, BTW.

unvote

(I still want Peregrine dead)
VOTE: Baby Spice

Who's up for a Baby Spice wagon?

[Beefster]

Weird. Snake looks town to me.

Our opinions couldn't be any more opposite.

[Beefster]

Lolz.

Your defense against me calling your post scummy fence sitting is to quote someone else?

Sure the question was asked, not denying that.
Your answer was scummy fence sitting though, and I don't see you trying to say otherwise.

*Facepalm*
You're stubborn... In a scummy way.
My defense is THE CONTEXT in which I made my comment.

I'd be willing to agree that there isn't much more we can get out of D1.

unvote

Don't worry. We'll lynch you at some point.

@EVERYONE:

Clearly, we're going to have to settle our differences in opinion if we want to get anywhere. The largest wagon was, let's see here,

7

players. We need 12 to lynch. We obviously won't be able to go for our top scumpicks and will have to settle for the most common on anyone's list.
The way I see it, we all have 2 options:

• Gandalf seems to be the most common and a fine D1 lynch. Maybe not the MOST scummy on any of our lists, but at least he's ON most of our lists.
  
• RBT seems another good choice, although I do not personally support an RBT lynch.

Zdenek, Implosion, Amrun, and myself have appeared on several scum lists; however, I don't think there's enough support among all of us to pull of a lynch on one of these. These lynches/nightkills will have to wait another day.

Unless you have a better plan, I suggest you vote one of those two players.

VOTE: gandalf5166

[Beefster]

I suppose we could also add implosion to that list, due to his recent popularity.

Point is, we need to break it down to 2 players to get an effective majority. A majority will never happen if the vote is split 3 ways.

[Beefster]

Well, break it down to 2 at some point. 3 is

okay

for now.

Day 1 is not the time for "perfect" lynches.

[Beefster]

Baby Spice looks overconfident/cocky scum.

[Beefster]

EBWODP:

Baby Spice looks

like

overconfident/cocky scum.

[Beefster]

Wow. I'm changing my mind on gandalf and RBT. They've pretty much switched places for me in just 2 pages.

gandalf looks pretty genuine to me due to some of his later posts.
RBT, even in just the last 2 pages, looks atypical and nervous.

unvote

I will hold off on my vote until after the vote count. I don't want to be hammering too early.
Should we coordinate some night lynches?

Call me an opportunist if you want, but that would be a wrong (yet valid) accusation. I legitimately just changed my mind. Like I said earlier, they're tough players to read. I made a mistake earlier.

[Beefster]

RBT is just reaching now.

VOTE: RBT

[Beefster]

How many people damaged Baby Spice?

[Beefster]

Interesting. I thought threw a 4 damage spell at Baby Spice. It must have been blocked/commuted.

*Argh* I was probably roleblocked... or Baby Spice is undead. My spells don't affect undead.

[Beefster]

Interesting. I thought threw a 4 damage spell at Baby Spice. It must have been blocked/commuted.

*Argh* I was probably roleblocked...

or Baby Spice is undead. My spells don't affect undead.

I'd think the bold is the most likely, no?

Seems reasonable. Wights seem to be the vanillas in this game and wights are undead, soo...

Yep. I have a quasi-investigative role.

[Beefster]

Scum Suspects:
WrathChild
PeregrineV
LMP

FOS: PeregrineV

[Beefster]

Scum Suspects:
WrathChild
PeregrineV
LMP

FOS: PeregrineV

Hey Beefster

We are not lynching people who are near death today.

That's you and Peregrine V.

Try again.

K

FOS: WrathChild

[Beefster]

Ok, discussed and fixed. Now that that's done:

@whoever hit me- you suck.

I wish I had a big ass bomb, I'd blow everyone up, and let the undead pop back up and win.

I think vote counts can still be analyzed, despite what someone said yesterday.

FoS: Dry-Fit

(sheeping only confirmed town for now)

We shall see about that softclaim. Are you undead?

Nobody else attack PeregrineV today. I'll use one of my spells on him. If he takes damage, then he's not undead- likely a Wizard. If anyone is a watcher, you can assist me in confirming his alignment

[Beefster]

It looks like he soft claimed undead, also note:
-Wights appear to be the VTs of this game- and thus are common
-Wights are undead
-My spells don't hurt undead
-The flavor of my role implies that there are NO UNDEAD WIZARDS.
-Therefore if I attack PeregrineV and no damage occurs, he is confirmed town. If he ends up dying, no real loss: He's a lurker/anti-town.

If someone is a watcher/similar role, he can check on Peregrine to confirm that I was the only person that targeted him.

[Beefster]

Bunnylover already alluded to this, but I am pretty sure that not all night actions hit their intended targets last night. So analyzing the night kill based on who the target was might not be reliable.

That makes sense. Baby Spice could very well be scum, then...

Of course my spells can't be used to "cheat". Three cheers for swinginess!

[Beefster]

FoS: Bunnylover

Too many inconsistencies.

Too lazy to actually pay attention. I haz job now.

[Beefster]

People need to stop bitching. The first two games had weird bits too. Get over it or don't join the game. Meantime, I wish that my two main suspects weren't already bleeding. Now, I do agree that her ruleset is irritating, but that's the way it is. Excuse me if my thoughts are all over the place, I usually edit it into a comprehensible order but I can't on my phone. Katy is still the best lynch. Reading my ISO is not new info, it's info she should have had earlier when she first accused me, and iirc info that she SAID she had. And the flips have nothing to do with my alignment unless she wants to say how they did. And referencing ongoing games isn't all of a sudden okay because it's relevant and because you put redacted in. There's only one game that I've just flipped in, everyone knows what you're talking about.

QFT. It's called a theme game.

[Beefster]

FoS: Baby Spice

Stupid redirection.

[Beefster]

You're not cleared. Redirection means I likely hadn't hit my intended target.

[Beefster]

Last night. I hid yesterday.

[Beefster]

The above was a response to this:

That's not what I meant.

If the targeting is off, as people are saying it was for last night, are you sure of who you actually targeted.

[Beefster]

Something isn't adding up here.

Either Bunnylover is lying scum, or AGOG and ManaKu are scum. I'm more inclined to believe the former. (Though AGOG/Mana is certainly a plausible scumteam at this point)

I'm not seeing Bunnylover being so oblivious and still be town. Roleblocks should come first, therefore BL is not the true redirector, else redirection would have not happened. There's strong evidence of mass redirection. It could potentially be a shift. (as seen in OoT Mafia)

Does anyone have some sort of a power that could transparently affect another player?

(Like the wagon-centric voteblock I had in OoT Mafia)

FoS: Bunnylover

[Beefster]

Not to mention it's odd that bunnylover would admit to having a mass-redirect power. Unless he's an inventor type, there's no reason any other kind of townie would have that kind of role. Bus driver, maybe, but not a redirector.

[Beefster]

In my experience, I don't think mass redirection is a townie power. Unless it's on some sort of bastard mechanic.

What type of power did you think you were using?

[Beefster]

Are you an inventor-type?

[Beefster]

Or rather, are you not told what exactly your spells do?

[Beefster]

Let me quote again:

When a player has an ability blocked or when an ability is prevented,

it will know that its ability failed

and the ability won't be used.

If Bunnylover was roleblocked, they would have been informed. I find it really impossible that scum Bunnylover would not only have claimed an action that was causing people to speculate incorrectly about their night actions, but would have done so if they were notified that their action failed and the ability wasn't used, which is what should have happened if the roleblock really worked.

Hmm, great catch.
Another thing to consider is that although Chesskid3/AGOG look normal, Mana_Ku looked pretty fucking scummy to me.

To be honest, I'd like to kill Mana_Ku first, if he comes up as one of us, we can then all protect AGOG and deal with Bunnylover later.

Unfos

FoS: Mana_Ku (Whoever is to substitute him)

Think in terms of night kills. It would be more productive to lynch bunnylover- then if he flips town chaos sorcerer (or whatever), we nightkill AGOG and Mana_Ku.

[Beefster]

Think in terms of night kills. It would be more productive to lynch bunnylover- then if he flips town chaos sorcerer (or whatever), we nightkill AGOG and Mana_Ku.

Explain how town writes this without their head exploding then, BS.

I think that if bunnylover and AGOG/ManaKu are different alignments due to overall inconsistency. It would be better to keep a masonry intact (if it IS a masonry), so lynch bunny, wait for the flip, and nightkill AGOG/ManaKu if bunny flips pro-town.

[Beefster]

Which would matter so much more if I thought that scum would get immediately killed if they FAKECLAIMED.

It only seems to apply to name claims. I've told plenty of details about my role and haven't died. Claiming "undead" shouldn't kill you. Claiming "Wight" should, though.

[Beefster]

I just noticed this in the rules:

-Field effects: -During each cycle of day/night, a special effect will be all over the game. This special effect affects all players and all actions, unless otherwise noted. These effects may range from increase damage from spells, negate certain type of actions, create post restrictions, modify the current HP of players, etc, etc, etc. You won't be told which effect is in place.

for all we know, bunnylover may have not even been responsible for the shift...

FoS: Snake

Maybe these were the effects:
-Pregame/Day 1: no name claiming
-Night 1: shift/mass redirection
-Day 2: no unvoting

VOLUNTEERING!
I am an

Uttercold Sorcerer

.

Nobody has anything to lose from this, right?

[Beefster]

Eh, whatever. I probably should have done a fakeclaim first.

[Beefster]

Each phase has some sort of field effect. Those are the field effects for those days. My theory is that the name claim ban is no longer in effect because it was the field effect for Day 1, but not today. We could benefit from name claims.

Bunnylover may not be responsible for the shift because it potentially was the field effect for Night 1.