Dynasty Warriors Mafia (Shu Victorious)
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Iecerint Survivor
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RayFrost is town.
Juls I think has the best idea about how to manage duels, scum WIFOM notwithstanding. EDIT: The elaborations that pick the duel partner at L-2 and by town consensus make it even better.
Juls and Gammagooey are town.
Magister spells out what is probably the situation. Throw in some Sima Yi drama as a longshot complication depending on where SX's getting his material.
Missed that bit about Toasty, though...some pretty flagrant doublethinking going on there... O.o
RF, those 3 characters aren't literally brothers; rather, their bromance drives a lot of the drama. Zhang Fei's kinda the odd man out, though...it's mainly a Guan Yu/Liu Bei bromance AFAICT...
Ludi, which DW games have you played?-
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I assumed Ludi had said something like "they're brothers" somewhere and you'd misinterpreted what he meant by that. My point was that you might have misunderstood the relevance of their being "brothers" to the likelihood of their inclusion.
I thought your pregame chat seemed like a proactive attempt to get stuff together, etc. It was the first thing that jumped out at me when I started reading. You also noticed the ML/Toasty thing that I didn't, but I'd already typed that out by that point.
Also: Hi Toasty.-
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I'm a HUUUUUGE Sima Yi fan, especially after playing DW7, so I kinda want it to come into play tbh. ^^~
I asked whether you'd played all the games to determine whether it was weird that you grouped the sworn brothers but not the Sun family. DW7 makes it clear that the Sun family isn't connected in the same way that the bromance is connected (e.g. SSX spends as much time in Shu as Wu), but it's not really touched on in earlier games IIRC.Last edited by SpyreX on Sun May 22, 2011 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.-
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I hadn't noticed that he was implying EXACTLY AND ONLY those 3. That changes things.
Upon reread, also:
Magister Ludi wrote:It also appears you DID knowwhy I choose those three charactersof Shu, (being principle proponents/brothers) yet saw fit to try painting my expression of Shu as somewhat maligned or weird or anti-town. I do not think it was at all.As for Wu, its your guess as good as mine, considering that the Quan family has four members plus sisters.
Bold added. Ludi is assuming 3 scum per team and ruling out the possibility of 4; otherwise, his comment about Wu would make no sense. O_O
Inside information, etc.
VOTE: Magister Ludi-
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Iecerint Survivor
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Oh, that's Zhuge.
Yeah, he's a big deal in DW. Rivalry with Sima Yi, etc. I prefer Sima Yi because Shu is really ineffectual and unsympathetic IMO and I'm annoyed that Zhuge doesn't ditch them or at least take over the country.
/off-topic-
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It depends on whether the game was balanced town v scum or faction v faction v faction.
I think it's true that site meta probably trends 3v3 for 20-sized games, though there are exceptions.-
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Gammagooey wrote:Iec I thought that 4 scum might be balanced TOTAL until Spy said that the duel could be a double lynch instead of just a force-lynch 1 person deal.
o_O
This is crazy talk AFAICT, unless you mistyped or I totally don't know what you're claiming...-
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It's relevant because we're trying to determine whether it's scummy that Ludi assumed 3v3 and discounted 4.
I suppose he ideally would've responded to this himself BUT cat's been out of the bag for a bit by now, so ye know.-
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@ RC -- You don't have to have any information about the theme to interpret it. The scumtell is that he appears to know the number of scum that are on each team. This would be scummy even if he hadn't made any comments about the theme.
His comment about Wu was that he wasn't sure who the scum would be because there were 4 brothers (I assume he means Sun Jian (actually the father), Sun Ce, Sun Quan, and SSX (a sister, but idk who the 4th would be...), though I'm really not sure). This makes no sense because if there were 4 obvWu candidates, the scumteam could just be all 4 of them. There's only awkwardness if you think 4-man teams are impossible for whatever reason. Since 4-man teams are perfectly plausible in a game this size IMO, I think it's a scumslip.-
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I'm not voting Ludi for theme spec. I'm voting Ludi for a scumslip. The scumslip was nested in theme spec, but the theme spec was incidental to the slip itself.
Katsuki always lurks and one-lines. That used to be all she did, but she's started to surprise me with her reads of late (cf. Square Enix V).-
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@ RedC -- That part is just trying to give you the flavor background because you said you didn't know it, but the flavor background was irrelevant. The scumslip itself was very standard ("scum shows they know the set-up").
Spoiler: More flavor in an explanation for you if you think it'll help
On the other hand, several players (Amrun + some others?) have said that this is townLudi meta. Elaborate?-
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@RF -- If I had to support another wagon, it would be the wagon on elvis. I didn't understand the wagon on myko, and I don't think Amrun is scum, either; she's doing the same logic-checking that gave me good feelings about her in Follow The Cop AFAICT. (Oddly, though, I didn't get the same <3town<3 vibes from her until I just did a reread.) On the other hand, she's also not really townhunting the way townAmrun did in that game....
Basically, I have some other suspicions, but those have lots of "well, it could be X..." dependencies attached to them. I feel much more confident about Ludi.-
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TownAmrun has historically shared them, though. In Follow The Cop, I got the sense that your playstyle was "find your friends with specific questions, then lynch from the remainder." Here your playstyle seems like "find the scum with specific questions(/observations), then lynch them." Both are legitimate playstyles, but the contrast has me nervous.
P-edit: I think Amrun's given plenty of reads; they've just been scumhunt-y ones. It feels weird to think weird thoughts about someone because they're scumhunting BUT ye know.Last edited by SpyreX on Tue May 24, 2011 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.-
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@RedC, I made the observations you're asking about in the votepost:
Iecerint wrote:Magister Ludi (to RF) wrote:It also appears you DID knowwhy I choose those three charactersof Shu, (being principle proponents/brothers) yet saw fit to try painting my expression of Shu as somewhat maligned or weird or anti-town. I do not think it was at all.As for Wu, its your guess as good as mine, considering that the Quan family has four members plus sisters.
It looks like I misremembered "members" as "brothers," but it doesn't affect anything.
I'd rather lynch elvis than Amrun.-
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Iecerint wrote:@RF -- If I had to support another wagon, it would be the wagon on elvis. I didn't understand the wagon on myko, and I don't think Amrun is scum, either; she's doing the same logic-checking that gave me good feelings about her in Follow The Cop AFAICT. (Oddly, though, I didn't get the same <3town<3 vibes from her until I just did a reread.) On the other hand, she's also not really townhunting the way townAmrun did in that game....
Basically, I have some other suspicions, but those have lots of "well, it could be X..." dependencies attached to them. I feel much more confident about Ludi.
But I've felt better about Amrun after part of her explanation was that this is a large game; I had that in the back of my head as I asked her about it.
Ludi is way, way more obvscum than either of you, though. Even if a player has a sense that 3/3 is more likely, they're not going to come out with it in such certain terms and they CERTAINLY won't use "not-3/3!" as a condition that rules out a set-up possibility, ESPECIALLY when they don't rhetoric-walk their way there first.-
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Also, RedC, claiming ignorance one more time is going to go beyond the boundaries of SoD. <_<-
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Gammagooey wrote:Iec gets a special mention down here because of super-hard tunneling for a pretty mediocre reason.
I disagree. I think Ludi-tier slips, provided good exposure, are the ideal basis for a D1 lynch.-
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I didn't get any negative feelings about myko at all, so that push seemed totally out of the blue to me. I was surprised the wagon picked up 4 (IIRC?) votes back then. I think it's suspicious that you came up with such a different take on things from the start, which can imply a different set of knowledge about the game (e.g. if you were discounting things I noticed because you knew those players were town, etc), but I don't think the logic itself was scummy. Maybe you can re-explain what was up with the myko wagon?
I think your vote for Amrun seemed totally out of the blue to me at the time, though I see some prior allusions to Amrun now that I reread you again. Still, I think your votepost is a bit scummy. Amrun'd been relatively active IMO, even if the style was awkward given that you knew her meta. Even your text is kinda schizophrenic; you say she's scum for not scumhunting, but then you allude (disparagingly) to scumhunt-y things she'd done (e.g. meta use, and NOT vaguely -- it was the basis of an unvote, and she followed up when I asked her about it).
Re: Ludi, that's correct, but it's beyond just implicitly or passively assuming 3 teams. Rather, he presented the make-up of the Wu scumteam as a puzzle given that they have more than 3 members. A normal town response might be something like "Huh? That's odd. Maybe I'm wrong about the logic behind the Shu scumteam" -- which, IIRC, we'd already established was conspicuously leaving out Zhuge Liang. Instead, in spite of being aware enough of flavor information to the contrary, he presents the flavor as a problem with his 3-man assumption to be overcome or something. This is unnatural because his assumptions were assumptions to begin with. <_<
I have never been in a game where scum was told about the other scumteam; however, scum can probably infer whether there's another scumteam being that they know their own size.-
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EBWOP: Though I'll admit that that one was O_O for me, too. <_<-
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ToastyToast wrote:14.)Iecerint—His activity levels seem to fluctuate, don’t like how he must constantly remind us his reasons for voting Ludi
1. Uh, I've posted several times every day...
2. People (= RedC about 3 times and most recently elvis) keep asking me to re-explain the case on Ludi.-
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Also, Ludi has been voting me for ages. <_<
It's more than a little weird that scumhunterRedC gives you good feelings, but you didn't read him carefully enough to recognize that he's asked me about Ludi over and over. O_o-
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Juls wrote:Iecerint
Post 394: The focus on the supposed scumslip by Ludi is being pushed a bit hard. Do you think scum would be so forth coming with flavor knowledge and assumptions? I think you are reaching here and it looks pretty scummy.
Well, scum SHOULDN'T, obviously. That's why it's a scumslip. <_<
I think flavor/set-up spec's actually a pretty easy way for scum to contribute to the discussion provided that they have the right flavor background. Also, the context was that Toasty and RF and me (and Katsuki?) had already done some flavorspec, so flavorspec was a low-awkwardness way to contribute to the game.
But really, I think a lot of it is that he's a fan of the flavor to start with.-
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@ RedC -- SoD means suspension of disbelief.
@ Vi -- No, that doesn't mean my read is weaker. My point is that he participated in flavor spec largely because he is a flavor-fan. Juls suggested that scum would not flavor-spec or openly make assumptions.-
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One incident is all it takes. I think I'd have to discover something really incredible to want to lynch anyone else.
I'll give this game a readthrough tomorrow afternoon, though. I owe the rest of you some attention, too.-
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I'M DOING MY READTHROUGH. I'M ONLY ON PAGE 8. <_<
Iecerint's Magical Journal: vol 1 wrote:~~Iecerint's Re-readthrough~~
1. Elvis's pre-game duel strategy talk is weird. She proposes a situation where scum would never get D abilities, but includes little cautions about it as a "possible downside" of her plan. Sounds made-up. EDIT: Subsequent "should we just lynch" bit is also weird, because using duelling as a double-lynch is unambiguously better than that.
2. Vote for myko still doesn't make sense to me. I guess it evolves into a serious vote later? Will see soon.
3. Oh. That wasn't cleared up yet. RF explains things as above. In light of this, elvis's plan was just awful rather than poorly-reasoned out. <_<
4. AGM proposes alternate, closer-to-obv plan.
5. RC says that obvtown is a myth because the fairy scummonster will mess with things, then he basically proposes the same plan with different rhetoric.
It would not surprise me if RC was on the opposite scumteam relative to Ludi. His behavior toward me more recently (e.g. asking the same question of me like 3-4 times, then saying I was scummy for focusing on it through he understands, etc) could be designed to strengthen a Ludi wagon by proxy. Still think Ludi's legit, though.
6. BB makes the same silly type of argument as did RC ("BEWARE! SCUMS IN GAME!"). Possible RCscumfriend if BB is a new player.
EDIT: Actually, I take that back. BB is just scummy. He's somewhat LESS likely to be scum with RC UNLESS he's a new player.
7. Amrun gets scumhunter points for #50, but calls out BB without calling out RC.
8. Elvis cross-supplies RC's silly strawman-destroying rhetoric. AGM obviously was not proposing that he personally choose the town dueler.
9. Oh. Well. Nevermind. AGM is apparently living in a crazy world. <_<
<_<
10. Gamma's RVS is +.
11. Toasty's RVS is -.
12. Elvis goes into crazy world, too, or she didn't see AGM's votepost. EDIT: She sees it afterwards. I'm surprised she didn't edit her plan after RF pointed out that she didn't know how the duels worked... O_o
13. Toasty asked DK if his vote was random, even though a large number of the RVS-y votes weren't random and a totally random vote after so much pre-game talk would appear a bit silly.
14. Maxous shifts Toasty's words around a little in 75 (1-1 /=>/ a dispute between parties).
15. Oh, nevermind. Toasty indeed meant something dumb.
What's with people making dumb claims about ideal play this game? You can't give anyone the benefit of the doubt... <_<
16. Ludi does he first laser-guided /outguess in #89. I'd missed before the possible significance of his referring to Wu as the "Quan"* family. Since Sun Quan wasn't even included in the series until DW4 (in spite of being the technical founder of Wu -- I think it's because Sun Jiang and Sun Ce are portrayed as heroic figures in the novel whereas Sun Quan is portrayed as cowardly/weak/deceitful), this is totally not a default way of looking at the Wu nation. I'd assumed Ludi was Shu s/p the 3-brothers-and-only-them thing, but it looks like he makes weird assumptions about Wu, too.
(* This is an error/slip on his part...the family is the Sun family; Quan is the given/"first" name of Sun Quan, the guy who ultimately founds Wu.)
17. RF calls out Ludi on attacking Toasty via /outguess, etc. and Ludi claims he was just making an idle observation.
18. I never really noticed how in-her-own-world Katsuki has been, probably because I didn't start posting until around the same time as her and we had some back-and-forth.
19. I disagree even more with Gamma's PoV re-4/4 now that I reread. In the simplest implementation, the duels basically give double lynches, or lets scum out themselves by duelling differently than instructed. They're a pro-town mechanic so long as they're used appropriately. Saying they "could" doublelynch town is like saying "you can lynch town by mistake; ergo, lynches are anti-town." Just sayin. I think this might be too nuanced to be part of evaluating the degree to which townLudi would infer a normative set-up, anyway.
20. I'm surprised that myko thought to vote elvis in 141. Lots of scummy things had happened in the meantime. EDIT: But he expresses feelings-type support for Ludiwagon.
21. RC's wallpost isn't really as substantive as I remembered it being. (Probably partially because I didn't really bother with most of them that didn't apply to me before tbh.) But I mean it's pretty much a list of I AGREE WITH THIS SENTENCE I QUOTED over and over. Sometimes he makes mini-quotes out of context. And he asks me to re-explain Ludislip for the first (1) time. <_<
EDIT: Well, I suppose he does give a nice summary. Surprised that he thinks Katsuki and Elvis seem town. I don't get C-Worl as scummy -- he's a non-entity AFAICT. Toasty as scum makes some sense, though.
22. I don't remember Ludi saying that RF was scummy re: elvis 154...
23. GreyICE...well...I agree with AGM's evaluation of his first posts, but I think AGM is indeed a weird player on elvis's scumlist. I don't recall her saying anything about him before this, either. Maybe it's from the pre-game yelling? EDIT: It is. I guess. But you never can tell with this playerlist. <_<
24. RC's entry into the game is worse than GreyICE's, albeit qualitatively the same.
25. BB does this lame "OMG GUYZ B CAREFUL LOL L-5 IS SRSBZBZ" thing that has to be made-up. Scummy.
26. No idea why C-Worl thinks GreyICE and AGM are scum together. EDIT: UNLESS he just doesn't know GreyICE.
27. CSL is making something up about C-Worl. I hope... <_<
EDIT: Yay! (Finally...) <_<
28. I think it's weird that inHim enters targeting CSL, of all people, his having making shit up notwithstanding.
Really, Ludi has been such obvscum so far, even more than I remembered him being, and I can't understand why everyone hasn't already lynched him by page 7 or whatever this is.
29. <3CSL<3 Though he doesn't really comment on the existing case.
30. I'm still not seeing why people thought Amrun was scum. I guess it's still coming? Trendy wagons in this game have made no sense to me at all (Ludi notwithstanding).
31.
Please don't kill him until I'm done thanks.-
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CLOSER, YOUR MIND'S FLYIN BLIND WITH YOUR HEAD AND YOUR FACE...
Iecerint's Magical Journal: vol 2 wrote:~~Iecerint's Re-readthrough~~
31. Not sure I agree with Gamma re: elvis in 194. IIRC, everyone who has tried to strawman someone this game (except once!) was actually correctly arguing whatever absurd thing appeared like a strawman s/p being simplistic or making no sense. I mean I don't blame him for not realizing that people are insane, though.
32. Oh. Well, the ZOMG LET'S BE CAREFUL-tell is totally legit re: elvis, though RedC and I think someone else (BB?) did the same thing soo....ye...
33. I wish I knew anything about DK re: Amrun 196.
34. OK, now we're starting to enter NO U territory at the following elvis post.
35. RC calls out a NEW ZLBC-tell on elvis. But he didn't really push his old one. And I don't remember him personally getting going with this one. CSL->STFU's.
36. DK calls elvis townie, claims he requested explained reads for that very reason (207). This was totally not the sense I got when he requested it, especially because someone else had already attacked the list, albeit more specifically, with a similar theme ("where iz frum?").
37. EK having possible vibes toward DK in 208...makes sense given the stated town read, but it departs from the earlier attitude...
38. Not sure why BB thinks Toasty and I are scumspots on the Ludi wagon.
39. @ GammaGamma wrote:There's also the small thing about elvis responding to an invisible ghost that takes AGM's words and changes them into saying that AGM is king and decider of obvtown, lynches, and all things, but it's mostly the not caring thing.
IIRC, this is one of the anti-strawmen where you assume elvis is making it up but the other person's claims really were that absurd.
40. Juls finally gives me an inkling of why people might think Amrun is scum ("doesn't want to kill DK aggressively enough"). Which, ye know. It still isn't THAT bad. <_<
41.RF wrote:1. I thought Vi was having a sincere restriction here because she doesn't tend to be deliberately annoying but... "idiot input" is my hobby and job. For serious. C-worl was quite obviously fake so I said as much. It's more a neutral thing. I don't see much point to them alignment-wise.
I'd missed this. Really? What character in the DW Universe would have that kind of PR? I guess she might be an arbalest or something, though I dunno who that'd be associated with...I guess if some Shu characters are town/Neutral, maybe Yue Ying, but I doubt she'd make the game otherwise given the implicit set-up...
42. Not sure why RF has a town read on GreyICE rE: 247. Null, sure. Town, idk.
43. I don't understand why people (other than Amrun, who explaind it) get a townvibe from Ludi's comeback post (254). Well, I mean, I DO, but I think they're missing context.
Ludi says RF isn't scum (which I think 1-2 players use as evidence that Ludi is town -- namely Amrun, IIRC), but RF had already moved on to other targets and discounted his read on Ludi, so olive-branching him is an obvious, low-risk move. I'm not sure why he singles-out Katsuki as the other "scum" on his wagon -- he says that it's a weak vote, even though that's the same as what CSL did, and then he says that Katsuki is scum for saying that CSL is doing it, which is enough POV-fails to make my head spin.
44. Not sure why inHIM votes DUM. All DUM did is say like I EXIST.
EDIT: Oh. So it's because that's all that happened. Fair enough, though WHY ARE PEOPLE NOT KILLING LUDI WITH FIRE GOD.
45. RedC attacks Toast. Also, RC asks me about Ludislip for the second (2) time.
46. I wish DUM had made his replace-in post more readable. I suppose it gives us some reads, but it's impossible to find the specific arguments being referenced without lots of legwork. Not unlike the RedC bits.
47. Don't like the Amrun attacks, probably, though I can't really tell what DUM is disliking, so ye.
48. DUM I THINK YOU ARE IGNORING LUDI ENTIRELY? WTF. (Is it just later?)
49. I have never played with RCtown before AFAICR. Just RCscumfriend in Square Enix II. He seemed perfectly capable there sooooo idk where all the hate for his town meta derives from.
50. GreyICE has weird reads.
51. GreyICE is suspicious of Amrun for going back to her old wagon after she grew disaffected from Ludi (and will explain it well enough when I pester her about it in a few pages). This is probably just an error BUT please take note @ GreyICE.
EDIT: But it looks like he also cross-supplies "usual suspects."
52. EK's vote for Amrun feels random again, though I recall from the iso that it's sorta weakly telegraphed.
53. If this is "improvedDK," I would hate to say "normalDK."
54. Amrun's explanation on leaving Ludi is still fine. I'd like her to reflect on RF's having already left him rhetorically + Ludi loving this flavor + Ludi mainly just flavor talking and then attacking those rhetoricing against him.
55. Not sure why it's scummy for Amrun to go back to her original suspect after losing interest in her second one re: GreyICE. Seems pretty basic to me.
56. Amrun is towntown. I mean she just is. Ima look at her wagon whenever I finally reach the end of this thread with extreme scrutiny.
57. Ludi does MOAR really confusing set-up /outguess, appealing to Gamma, in 365. Then he separates his post in two nicely with -------s and continues to call me scum for continuing to call him scum.
58. Did GreyICE ever answer what was wrong about Ludi's post as alluded to in 366? Cuz idk. Is it just a joke about wanting AGM votes?
59. Vi, if you've read any of my town games (and I know you've read AT LEAST 1), you know that I waffle like hell if asked specific questions that I don't think have a clear answer (re: 371).
60. RC asks me to explain Ludislip for the THIRD (3) time. Also, I missed your other thing -- I never ignore meta, and meta was the only thing making me somewhat iffy on Amrun way back when sooooo ye.
Also, not sure why he decides to vote Amrun over Toast or BB, even giving the content in the same wallpost. Hell, some of his Amrun-related wallposts sound apologetic ("Maybe you're in too many games").
61. EK 380 re: Amrun is scummy. It wouldn't make any sense for scumAmrun to deliberately subvert her advantage, unless scumAmrun DOESN'T fake townAmrun -- which I doubt, because Amrun said somewhere that she's never been lynched as mafia IIRC. And she already explained why she changed her strategy when I asked her about it. <_<
62.Amrun wrote:You didn't answer my question: you brought up meta, not me, but my meta doesn't support your statement. I have, so far, scumhunted a lot as scum. You say it's not all meta-based, but why bring up meta when it does not support your argument at all and contradicts it?
Amrun, are you claiming a meta-contrast between your old playstyles, or just commenting that you are good at being scum?
63. Toast's townread on RedC MAKES NO SENSE. AT ALL. NONE. ZERO. NONE. AT ALL. WHOA.
Ugh, and his other reads aren't much better, but I already talked about some of those.
64.Iecerint, about Toasty wrote:It's more than a little weird that scumhunterRedC gives you good feelings, but you didn't read him carefully enough to recognize that he's asked me about Ludi over and over. O_o
QFT
65.
JUST A FEW PAGES LEFT. I THINK I'M ON UHH 16 OR SO IDK.-
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I was pretty sure it was fake due to the flavor, but I thought it was just Vi being Vi. ^^~
OK BACK TO WERK.-
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YOU CAN'T MISTAKE MY BIOLOGIES:
Iecerint's Magical Journal: vol ~3~ wrote:~~Iecerint's Re-readthrough~~
65. BB continues his standard FRIENDSHIP IS THE WAY TO HAPPINESS talk, but 430 actually sounds less hackneyed for some reason.
Had BB even made a comment a DUM constitute before this post...?
66. Toasty 436 looks like a lie. I have not noticed disproportionate townhunting from his posts this game, but he claims his scumlist was PoE s/p townhunting rather than scumhunting. Then he returns to old scumhunty-type things re: DUM. It's like he recognized that his scumreads had not been well-motivated, used a default handwave, and then continued to playing the game as if he had not had to address that issue. The fact that this created a discrepancy is scummy.
67. I cannot tell whether DK really believes the things he says. I guess he may? I remain amazed that this is DK when he is well-behaved.
68.Toast wrote:So I should back off out of fear? I think not.
lolirl
69. I have no idea what RF is talking about in 443.
70. Vi, did you ever respond to my response to your question about Ludi being a flavor-fan? Cuz your inference that I think that people who love DW are all town is a little bit crazy.
71. Ludi's notion that my vote for him is "tepid" is lolol.
72. @ RF -- it's not just one slip, it was a CONSTELLATION of slips. Gosh, I think every single one of Ludi's post-confirmish pre-KILLIEC posts has some manner of weirdness in there somewhere.
ALSO ~ I have more time now because I got my grant and will not owe my university 80K HOORAY~!
73.Vi wrote:Iecerint 503... Post reads as hollow.Expectation is that a Townie with a slip would crusade with itand/or not fail to provide outside reads regardless.
HELLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Have you read ANY of my posts?? <_<
74. Also, I didn't waffle on Amrun/EK; at least, not the way you intimate. I had some questions about Amrun in spite of a townread, got answers, and that was that. Soooo ye (re: 522).
75. When's the Toasty wagon going to explode? I'm almost all caught up now...
76. I don't know what to think of Katsuki...I get a town read on her again now that she's started posting again. even though not much is going on...
77. DK's vote for Katsuki is horrible. EDIT: Oh, the Vi thing. Is just because Toasty didn't answer, innit?
78. Ah, OK. Max notes that Toasty misstates/distorts his prior case on Vi.
79. Oh, gosh, and then he flips back and says he "added" it, which the quoted bit does not imply. Yeah...
tl;dr read summary incoming...-
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Iecerint Survivor
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TOWN
Katsuki - This is mainly something I feel in my heart.
Vi - My only hesitation is the accusation of my waffling re: EK/Amrun as a fact OR scumtell for me re: this game, because it is neither, and I think she knows that. BUT idk.
Iecerint
Gamma - No complaints + good feelings. Never played with him, though, AFAICR.
Juls - I'd encourage her to review the circumstances of the Ludi post she terms "goodposting," though. Also applies to Amrun.
AGM - I feel town things. I understand his basis for thinking I'm scummy, too, unlike some other players'.
mykonian - Maybe he belongs in null? But I get good vibes. It's true that his content is a little one-note.
RayFrost - Happy thoughts; good, careful reading.
Amrun - I believe the meta shift explanation, and I think this is very similar to townAmrun apart from that
NULL
inHim - He hasn't really done anything...he apologizes for lurking every few pages and then makes a forgettable post...I don't think I ever made a lasting note on one of them
DUM - These guys are edging toward scummy, I think...the thinking pattern appears very disorganized...it's hard for me to get a sense of how they're processing things...
Maxous - My *gut* says scum, and I had been thinking scummy things before this readthrough, but I find that I agree with almost everything he says if I ignore the tone and focus on the content. So now I'm kinda null. Might've just been reacting to tone before.
DeityKabuto - I dunno this guy's meta...it's apparently different...I almost want to put him toward Town -- that exchange with Vi a page or so ago looked very Town to me, for example - but the first part of the day was very inscrutable...
GreyICE - This is not the GreyICE that I know, but the GreyICE that I know has been both town and scum SO idk. Not my scummiest read, though, for sure.
C-Worl - Never played with him before. This guy's nullish to me...there's sometimes a kind of earnest sense the way that townCMAR used to be...maybe leaning town because of that, but it may be because he reminds me of CMAR.
mykonian - Moved here; see above
elvis_knits - Moved here; see below
SCUM
MagisterLudi - Scumscumscum. Still scum. Scummier than before the reread. I would encourage anyone who found his post-flavor content a pleasant change to reread it in context. Confirmation bias is maybe confirmation bias, but I expected to get a LITTLE bit more of a balanced feeling on reread, and the opposite happened.
Bastard Bros - I think EVERY SINGLE POST has some kind of WE MUST BE CAREFUL, FRIENDLY PLAYERS TO DEFEAT EVIL kind of grandstanding theme, and I think it's fake. Have never played with him before, though. Is this a favored metanarrative of his or something?
ToastyToast - 1) His list of reads made NO SENSE, especially the "<3RedC<3 + weakIecHate" combination, which should have been impossible if he'd actually been reading RedC's posts enough to love them (i.e. because he'd know that RedC kept having me re-explain Ludislip).
RedCoyote - His wallposts don't really much content in them AFAICT in spite of the EXTREME volume, and he's got a weird interaction with Toasty going on. I may be mis-remembering, but I think I've only played with RedC in the Inception mini, where we were scum together...I'll have to look back and see if he had the same kind of thing going on there, though I think he replaced in D2 and got lynched there, so idk how much there's gonna be.
elvis_knits - This should maybe go into null...some of the posts nearer to the present give me more positive feelings...-
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Amrun wrote:Iec: It is a basic fact that I have drawn less supicion as scum than I have as town and that I have been more succesful as scum. Jack once described my town playstyle as "skipping in a field of mafiascum scumtells" or something. Of course, I play more as town than as scum and the pressure is higher as scum, so it's natural I have more "off" games as town.
Jack says you're a scummy townie? Idk. I thought you were obvobvtown in Follow The Cop. I believe you when you say you've only been lynched as scum, though.-
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NOW I AM DONE THANK GOD THAT TOOK FOREVER.
Ludi > Toast > RedC > BB, I think, as duel preferences go.
If we go with Toast and Toast flips scum, I want to think about RedC in relatively serious ways for the second one; otherwise, I will prefer Ludi.
BB would be OK, but I see the other flips as more informative.-
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Yeah, RedC only made 9 posts in Inception...he misclaimed early on and was lynched. So I can't really use that to compare. He didn't post these crazy walls, though, or be too vapid, though he himself was kinda the main event, so ye know.-
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(I should clarify that I called RedC RC for the first part of my wallposts. So yeah. Sorry)-
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Here's all the Ludi stuff from my wallposts; it leaves out the old Ludislip and the "spec is scummy --> specspecsped" bits:
Iec, re: RedC/Ludi, wrote:It would not surprise me if RC was on the opposite scumteam relative to Ludi. His behavior toward me more recently (e.g. asking the same question of me like 3-4 times, then saying I was scummy for focusing on it through he understands, etc) could be designed to strengthen a Ludi wagon by proxy. Still think Ludi's legit, though.
Iec, regarding a brand new Ludislip, wrote:16. Ludi does he first laser-guided /outguess in #89. I'd missed before the possible significance of his referring to Wu as the "Quan"* family. Since Sun Quan wasn't even included in the series until DW4 (in spite of being the technical founder of Wu -- I think it's because Sun Jiang and Sun Ce are portrayed as heroic figures in the novel whereas Sun Quan is portrayed as cowardly/weak/deceitful), this is totally not a default way of looking at the Wu nation. I'd assumed Ludi was Shu s/p the 3-brothers-and-only-them thing, but it looks like he makes weird assumptions about Wu, too.
(* This is an error/slip on his part...the family is the Sun family; Quan is the given/"first" name of Sun Quan, the guy who ultimately founds Wu.)
Iec, regarding the post where Ludi votes Iec, wrote:I don't understand why people (other than Amrun, who explaind it) get a townvibe from Ludi's comeback post (254). Well, I mean, I DO, but I think they're missing context.
Ludi says RF isn't scum (which I think 1-2 players use as evidence that Ludi is town -- namely Amrun, IIRC), but RF had already moved on to other targets and discounted his read on Ludi, so olive-branching him is an obvious, low-risk move. I'm not sure why he singles-out Katsuki as the other "scum" on his wagon -- he says that it's a weak vote, even though that's the same as what CSL did, and then he says that Katsuki is scum for saying that CSL is doing it, which is enough POV-fails to make my head spin.
Iec, regarding a Ludi post that I don't really think I understood one way or the other, wrote:57. Ludi does MOAR really confusing set-up /outguess, appealing to Gamma, in 365. Then he separates his post in two nicely with -------s and continues to call me scum for continuing to call him scum.-
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1. That's an awfully boring treatment of Zhang He.
2. On the other hand, I told SX pre-game that I wanted to be Zhang He, sooooo ye. I figure the set-up was probably finished by then, though; I don't think it was too long before the sign-up thread opened up.
3. I could see Toasty wanting to fakeclaim Zhang He...
4. But I'd think he'd come up with something better.-
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@ Toasty -- Scum (presumably) have access to multiple fakeclaims. My point is that given that Zhang He is among the choices, if someone likes Zhang He he's somewhat more likely to choose to fakeclaim as him. On the other hand, the chance of you being town Zhang He is just the baseline, because it's (presumably) random.
The reason I make the inference that you like Zhang He is that you are 1 gay.
@ Ludi -- Because if players express interest in particular roles pre-game, SX might be more likely to include them in the game itself. I would do that as mod, at least, because I want people to enjoy the game, see roles they enjoy, etc. As stated, likely not relevant as our communication was too close to game start, but worth mentioning.-
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I use "gay" the way that lesbians use it.
I thought you made a statement about "pretty much all of us" liking the flavor and/or SX games at some point in my readthrough IIRC, so I assumed you knew the flavor. Maybe I confused you with someone else?-
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Yeah, now I can't find it in any isos. I could've sworn it was you. <_<-
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Juls wrote:Iecerint
Post 458: It does not matter if I were scum or if I were town, if I knew and enjoyed the subject matter I would probably come in excited and start discussing it. Your arguement is reaching and the fact that you have nothing else to offer looks scummy. You are pushing a lynch on something to me is not that lynchable in-of-itself. This is what scum do. They find the easy targets and they push them. You are absolutely at the top of my scumlist at the moment.
Post 470: No. I asked why scum would give away the farm in flavor spec. I think they would be a bit more careful.
Post 503: Again, your tunneling on this minor "slip" is tunneling. You should wait for a flip before you see this as anything more than just being a fan-boy.
Post 607: Your scum list are full of easy targets. Your town list is full of easy targets with the exception of a couple. Don't use red, it's the mod's color.
Post 626: Look at you immediately trying to discount a claim.
In order --
1. OBVIOUSLY. I agree 100% with the first half, at least. My point is that Ludi participated in spec because he likes the flavor. That's what created the environment where he slips. Your own paragraph logic here doesn't hold together -- participation in flavor spec is overdetermined by interest in the flavor regardless of alignment, as you yourself state.
2. I don't know what you mean by "farm flavor." I'm going to repost what I responded to and said because I'm not sure what you're taking exception to. I think this is basically the same point as #1, though:
Juls wrote:Post 394: The focus on the supposed scumslip by Ludi is being pushed a bit hard.Do you think scum would be so forth coming with flavor knowledge and assumptions?I think you are reaching here and it looks pretty scummy.
Iec, to someone else who complained that I was talking about Ludi re: Juls's comment, wrote:My point is that he participated in flavor spec largely because he is a flavor-fan.Juls suggested that scum would not flavor-spec or openly make assumptions.
EDIT: OH, maybe you meant that scum would only flavor-spec in minor ways? I suppose that would be ideal, but it's not what happened.
3. If I see a legit slip -- let alone a constellation of slips -- by a player, I'm absolutely going to ask that player to be lynched. (I'm very annoyed that you keep calling it a "minor" slip; there was more than one slip, with major slips among them, and then tunneling on me until the Toasty wagon took off.) If you want to call that tunneling on my part, fine.
4. This is bogus IMO. "Your reads are similar to mine; ergo, you are scummy." Or I'm assuming that's where your sense of "easy" ultimately comes from.
5. No, I provided evidence both that the claim might be legit and that the claim might not be, because I had information about Toast and Zhang He and mod-talk pre-game. This is a straight-up misrep/misread. <_<
Since RC has flipped scum, I feel relatively strongly about Toast being killed. I think he had some unusual interactions with RC's slot during the game, etc. Only scumread in Gamma's new post is BB, though, so I suppose that'll do.
I'd really like it if he'd duel Ludi or Toast, though. D:
Fun fact: Assuming Gan Ning isn't 3rd party, Gan Ning comes from Sun Quan-era Wu. Fits with Ludi's "Quan family" focus. Though I suppose it doesn't fit the "family" focus idk.-
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Maxous wrote:Eh but whytwoscum groups?
In flavor the principle conflict is between Wei and Shu. Wu is kind of peripheral and shifts their alliances throughout the war, though they're usually tentatively allied with Shu.-
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Vote: Gamma to Win
Something I just realized --
Ludi is cleared of being Wu, provided that they're an actual faction. RedC kept asking me to restate the case on Ludi over and over. That's not something you do on a scumfriend.
So his "Quan family" weirdness appears to've just been weirdness rather than a slip.-
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2. K
3. Looking back in iso, his slippost is actually all the same post. I think I got confused about this in the readthrough because of something RF quoted. However, that restated argument does make more sense.
4. Who else is on your scumlist, and why?
5. The reasons I supplied for it being real are A) I talked to Spy and B) A fan of Zhang He would come up with something better for abilities, which contradicted my "ToastFan picked Zhang He" theory.-
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Duelist Nomination: AGM
Vote: BastardBros
Juls has already said she's dueling me, and I think Vi issued a fake scumtell on me once, so I'm slightly wary of her.
Ludi's almost certainly not Wu s/p RedC flipping Wu, so I don't think he's an ideal duelist-target anymore.-
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Vi wrote:Unsure how to read post. Options include:
*"Vi is scummy because of some accusation against me earlier"
*"I don't trust the scum-killing dayvig's judgment for finding scum"
Choice of AlmasterGM in light of either of these positively dubious.
I wanted to choose my #1 town read who also had town support and plausible reads as my duelist. Juls is out because she wants to duel me 100%. Katsuki I'm relatively uncertain about. You might be OK, but I think you know my meta better than to think waffling on Amrun/EK would be a scumtell for me, and I think it's a stretch to claim it even happened. RF and Amrun I think are too controversial to be reasonable choices. The remaining player is AGM; I think I'm also his #1 suspect, or I was before I caught back up, but I'm very confident he's town and so think it's plausible that he'd select someone decent.
So it's the first one of those two, but it's more like "Vi is not the player I most want to empower s/p some accusation against me earlier."
I'd really like to have Amrun duel as my #1 choice, but I doubt there's enough support for that.-
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Why does everything think AGM will duel GreyICE, anyway? I don't think GreyICE is even on top of his scumlist...
EDIT: He's not -->
AGM wrote:1) Iecerint
2) elvis_knits
3) ToastyToast
4) Magister Ludi
Also, C-Worl.
From page 22.-
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Quick skim:
Gamma wrote:Ludi to me looks like town tripping over himself and people ganging up on him for it, ESPECIALLY with the Wu flip basically showing that the slip Iec went on about for the entire damn day doesn't exist at all.
This is not quite right. The "Quan Family" thing is innocuous because he's almost certainly not Wu. Leaving out Zhuge Liang to claim 3 rather than 4-man scumteam is still a bit weird.
@ Vi -- IIRC you can get a /self-meta thing on me fencesitting toward the end of SAIII. VPBaltar tried to call me scum for fencesitting on something. It comes up in almost all my games.
I'm about to drive home from my grandparents' and will read properly at that time.-
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@ Vi -- I realized on the way home that you also have my meta from Holy Orders...can't remember if it came into play there, but I was under lots of suspicion all game there, so I figure it probably did.
Re: GreyICE/AGM -- I think pretty much everyone assumed two teams upfront IIRC. The first player I remember subverting that was inHim, who suggested that the scumteam might be a Wu-Shu alliance. I think Toasty/RF/Ludi/I had all gone into the flavor-based 2-team spec to various degrees by the time GreyICE posted.
THOUGH, given that I have that chronology right, that makes GreyICE's "discovery" of the 2 scumteam possibility looks made-up unless he just hadn't read at all. And other-scumteam talk subsequent to just imagining the possibility is weird. When I read that part originally I wasn't sure if he was joking tbh. <_<-
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@ Gamma -- Here's the EK/AGM bit I assume we're discussing:
EK wrote:I'm not liking this at all. Who is coming up with the list of obvtown? You? You propose we give certain players license to duel and force others to duel and not others? No way. We rule by majority, like always in a mafia game.
AGM (in response) wrote:Imagine the following: you and I are both confirmed town (by cop or something). We take a straw poll for who should duel and it comes out as follows:
Two obvscum players (5) - Obvtown, good scumhunter, good scumhunter, AlmasterGM, elvis_knits
Two people who we think are town, but for some reason these 7 people think are scum (7) - obvscum, obvscum, lurker, lurker, VI, null, null
My position: Fuck the straw poll, we're lynching the obvscum.
Your position: Welp, I disagree ... but I guess we'll go with the majority.
This example is clearly weighted to favor my side of the argument, but I think my point is clear - I'm valuing the opinions of certain people over others, and if it comes down to the wire, I'm not going to sit back and permit idiocracy. Scum and/or VIs should not have their votes weighted as strongly as obvtown and/or expert scumhunters. And don't give me this "well, we don't know who the obvtown are" - it's not that difficult to generally discern who is protown and who is not.
My point was that AGM was indeed proposing a deviation from majority lynches, which is what EK proposed above. That was the anti-strawman thing I was referring to IIRC.-
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You are getting the chronology confused. That was AGM's clarification AFTER elvis made that comment. This was AGM's original comment (before both the ones listed above):
AlmasterGM wrote:I propose: if you are OBVTOWN, you are permitted to duel and/or order other people to duel. If you are NOT OBVTOWN, you are not permitted to start duels and/or order other people to duel. OBVTOWN people will form an alliance and work together to find scumz.
This post legitimately begged the question of where "obvtown" was coming from IMO.-
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1. I got a good feeling from RF in his first posts.
2. No, it is definitely a scumtell.
3. No, you are wrong; it's just the first time that I stopped focusing on something that you didn't think was a scumtell.-
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There were better players to lose the duel and better players to win it. We don't even have a claim from inHim.
That was extremely premature.-
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@ Amrun -- Lu Bu is almost certainly a serial killer or analogous 3rd party role, especially since we know we have one. He's the strongest warrior in flavor, has a habit of killing his superiors and being kind of crazy, etc.
In internet culture, the "Don't Pursue Lu Bu" goofy translation achieved demi-meme status -- some people who don't know much about the game know about it --so I think it's very likely that he's in this game.-
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Oh, I see...you're arguing that Gan Ning was the 3rd party.
Very unlikely, especially given AGM's info. Does not make flavor sense, and does not allow for Lu Bu's inclusion.
One possibility is that the flavor was intended to allude to the fact that Wu was sometimes allied with Wei.-
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Maxous wrote:@Iecerint:
AGM said 3 anti-town factions. It does'nt neccessarily mean anything such as an SK. It could be any anti-town role.
Red Coyote flipped the red Wu.
There is the green Shu and the yellow Turban people as well right(like the Zhang's)
I'm not saying you are wrong but I would'nt completely rule out RC being 3'rd party based on his character.
Did'nt RC's character(Gan ning) have a habit of changing alleigances anyway?
Gan Ning worked for another lord before joining Wu, but he was loyal after joining Wu. That's the standard pattern for all factions if the person wasn't related to the leader or a childhood friend or whatever, though -- namely, Zhang He (= Toasty) was loyal to Yuan Shao before joining Wei. You might as well spec that Huang Zhong is 3rd party and working for that Jing province fellow (or whoever it was he and Wei Yan came from). Gan Ning was something of a pirate originally, though, which may push in that direction more than some of the other possibilities. I doubt it, though.
Also, just realized something, presumably separate Shu/Wu scumteams and Gan Ning being a member of the latter -- while Gan Ning is a very popular DW character, he's very much relegated to sub-plots in the overall historical/novel narrative. This makes me think that popular characters were chosen rather than flavorful ones, which makes me less concerned about Ludi's "3 brothers scumteam" spec, since I don't think Zhang Fei is very popular.-
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Myko, why'd you duel inHim instead of EK?-
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Oh, I think I've figured out the answer. But give it anyone.
P-edit: Thanks. Yeah, I figured it was because people had expressed inHim duel feelings, but I don't remember anyone wanting EK to do so.-
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Toasty posted his ability name. I see no reason why elvis wouldn't be able to.-
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I think Dian Wei and Xu Zhu are the most likely protective roles via flavor.
Via abilities, Cai Wenji might've made sense (I think her musou heals herself), but she just flipped (=inHim).
Xiahou Yuan's big flavor importance is his rivalry with Huang Zhong of Shu (who ultimately kills him).-
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Worth noting that Zhang He was a watcher/tracker or something, which also didn't make much sense other than that he's a kinda fast character.-
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