DEFCON Mafia 3.0 - Over, American Victory!

[RedCoyote]

Oh, no reason for Total War. Easy choice here.

Vote against Total War

Unfortunately I'm really pressed for time, guys. I second Vi's calling out dana for calling Total War "confusing", but I really can't make a detailed post right now.

[RedCoyote]

I'm looking forward to this, but I've just spent most of my weekend out of town. I know y'all dislike hearing these little excuse posts for no activity, but I figure they're at least slightly better than hearing nothing from me at all. Given that I've played with several of you before, I'm confident in the fact that you know not to worry about me ignoring our game.

The party couldn't really start without IS anyways, so it's not like I was missing much. I suspect that I'll have a nice post for y'all early, early Monday morning.

[RedCoyote]

Note

: As usual, when you see a spoiler tag in my post, it's because I was building a wall. As usual, I do not expect people to read my wall, only my conclusions at the end of the post. Unfortunately I missed out on a weekend's worth of activity, but I will be able to get more into the swing of things as the game continues.

Spoiler: Classified Top Secret American Intelligence or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Wall

Magua's post 6 is one of the most solid starting posts I've seen in recent history. A very firm, nuts and bolts stance against Total War. He could be faking (in fact I see no reason for the scum to even try to get Total War passed given the harsh requirements necessary for it). Still, as a first post, with Magua not aware of how any player will react, this is a solid position with noteworthy leadership components to it.
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I don't agree with Magua. Total War is the way to go

I should say that you make a fair argument here. I mean, it's politically debatable whether or not Total War could end up benefiting the town or not, but I just don't see enough of an advantage to justify the skip. I would much prefer town-directed lynches and less players in DEFCON 1 than I would a larger segment of (weaker) players without having those data. Let's face facts, it's likely that our lynches will be used, in large part, to cull the weaker segment of our playerbase. At least it will if my vote has anything to say about it.

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You CAN'T support Total War at this point.

You could, but it would just be for argument's sake. Heck, it's better than RVS or Troop Order List speculating.

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Confirming in the sense that I've read my role PM, but I still haven't decided whether or not to vote total warfare yet. Big analysis post coming tomorrow when I'm more lucid. I'm trying to see if there's a way to completely break this game, but the terrorist role throws a wrench into things.

Scummy post here. This is not all that difficult of a decision. ooba laid out some fair points and made a serious decision. This reads like stalling to me, and it's unnecessary stalling at that. It doesn't seem very town. Obviously town want to be thoughtful of their decision, but if you can't at least give a reaction to how you stand on Total War (I don't care how non-lucid you are), then that's a red flag to me.

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It's way too confusing on top of being pretty scum-sided, imo.

As I stated earlier, this is another post I'm not fond of. Total War is not inherently a confusing issue. A case can be made both ways (even though I'm firmly in one camp), so this is throwaway rationale to pad the post a little bit. I'm not buying it.

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/confirmandwhatnot

Bad, anti-town start to the game. No reference to Total War. This implies he isn't reading the posts. Toogeloo would, again, make an acceptable early casuality at this point.

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The scum will be forced to play and be active and try and make false cases, and in such an enviroment, scum are a lot easier to find.

Essentially, total war cuts out the lurk mode for scum.

It is the optimally play.

This is a fair point, although I didn't like how the post started. Still, this is assuming lurkers would be taken out by those with nukes. A fair assumption, but an assumption nonetheless.

Further, I agree that lurkers should deserve nuclear pressure and action if they fail to comply.

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Since it needs to be unanimous, and its not, doesn't really matter now, does it?

It does. You have to vote one way or the other to confirm, so it would be insincere of him to vote against what he really thinks. There's no reason for him to lie to us if he's town, Magua.

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I am not ready and do not confirm.

I need more time to talk with my scumbuddies.

Keep your pants on until tonight

Cute, but, given the player who is saying this, I'd lean scummy on it.

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Emphasizing our "vig" shots and taking away our ability to talk things over is most likely going to confuse people and help the scum.

That's entirely fair except that this is pretty much full blown opposition to Total War. I don't understand your unwillingness to call it like you see it. If anything, it should be less confusing in your mind.

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3. I'd really advise putting Fail Safe (Vengeful) on your list. Unless you expect to get night-killed N1 or N2, it's categorically worse than just having a missile silo.

I would advise against players necessarily choosing the Sub as their first choice unless they want the Sub as their first choice. To be clear, your first point is fine, but the second point that addresses Subs is not.

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I -KNOW- its a very powerful scum role, and this may sound really silly, but it might be best to let the scum have it. What I mean is, if we KNOW scum have got the sub, then we can eventually confirm who they are by making people launch their nukes; if someone launches and we don't see their name attached to the warhead, we know they're holding the secret daykill powar and they're confirmed scum. It could also be useful for rooting out the SK. Thoughts on this?

This is a fair argument. I'm actually willing to give you town points for it. I disagree though, if only because I think having a Vig AND denying the scum/SK this power is just such an advantage for the town.

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Jeez dana it's as if you're trying to pretend you've never played Defcon mafia or something...

This almost earned town points until I realized she was handling dana with kid gloves. If Kats had the balls to call out dana, she'd be looking sweet right about now. Conversely, this is now more scummy than anything.

That's pretty much a scumclaim.

Okay, okay. Jeez. You can have your town points back.

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Boring+unconfrontational first post plus trying to show he's useful by saying he's going to go reread earlier games instead of actually Being useful.

Good point. I let this kind of slip by me, but I would be willing to join you on this wagon. Don't let me forget I said this.

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I want to propose an idea. Say you go for Fail Safe because it's a fun role and everyone wants a fun role. Should you claim it as soon as Defcon 1 lands down?

It's up to the player. I suspect most players will want to claim it as soon as they feel threatened by a nuke. I think if our most prolific players feel like they are solid NK targets (e.g. Vi, Magua, Gamma), they should strongly consider holding onto it for attracting a NK. Magua appears to have declined to take up that offer, but, you know, we'll see what happens. After all, WIFOM.

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Useless for town:

Eavesdrop: Possible eavesdropper

I strongly disagree with this. I don't know how you could possibly come to this conclusion. Unless the scum were brilliant code masters (which will not be the case), then Eavesdrop will be useful in the right hands.

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I believe it's needed to have a few roles that everyone agrees need to be targetted by town members.

This has more or less already started unless you are advocating firm, established lists from players. I would disagree with that.

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It has two effects:

1) If someone nukes you, you *must* nuke them.
2) If you are killed by the scum (but *not* if you are killed by the SK), you may fire a nuke at anyone.

There's only two situations where it is better than simply having a missile silo:
1) If you are killed by the scum N2. In this case, you will get one nuke off whereas if you had a missile silo you'd get none.
2) If you can make multiple people fire nukes at you.

In all other cases, it's worse than a missile silo, because the missile silo would either give you at least as many nukes, and given you a choice as to when and on whom to use them. It's really the choice that makes missile silos so much better.

This is solid. I agree. At first I thought this was a bad idea, but, after reading this, Magua has convinced me.

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By the end of Day 3 everything worth revealing will probably be public.

Doubtful. The order of the lists will still likely be coveted. This could be useful in catching scum, so the town would be remiss to have everything out in the open too early.

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Also, the way the draft works, the more town players that go for a role (say, put it as #1), the higher the chance town gets it.

This. This is why I'm weary of affording those that "want to nuke" the luxury of skipping out on the Troops entirely. If they really feel like they can do more damage with their nuke than they could by keeping the scum from having one of the Troop powers, then I guess that's okay. Still, you'd be hard pressed to sell me on that idea.

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Just allocate four players to first pick each of the roles. According to how this 'works', there is probably only one of the four players scum and so town picks up every power role.

Wow. No. No freaking way. Lists aren't made public, so there's about a 0% chance of scum following through on whatever orders you give them.

Either you just made a naive comment or you're scummy for this, and you don't strike me as the naive type.

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Pooky is town.

[...]

RC too.

[...]

InHim is town.

Explain these reads at this point in the game. All three of us have effectively given zero content outside of fluff and our support/opposition of Total War. This reads completely without merit to me. You leave off too many people, so it isn't all-encompassing.

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Fallout Shelter is also antitown crap that no town should take.

Airbase is antitown crap that no town should take..

I disagree with Fallout Shelter and strongly disagree with Airbase. Fallout Shelter keeps renegade townies (which we have a considerable number of) from nuking someone indiscriminately. If scum has it, then, theoretically, the town should be easily able to overwhelm him, but if town has it, then, theoretically, there will be less overall support for him to go.

I definitely disagree with Airbase being crap. That's basically a bulletproof vest. You could thwart a NK. I don't know what you're smoking when you say this is crap.

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Having read DEFCON 1 already I disagree with gammagooey #131 -- Hinduragi was scum in that game and nuked his buddy on way to victory.
Nuking is like very intense bussing -- we shuold not be using it to clear people.

Another reason why Fallout Shelter is a good power (not the best by any means, but a solid one). Not the scum nuking scum thing, but the idea of scum nuking at all. Scum are virtually guaranteed to get at least one nuclear silo. More likely 2 or 3. They may sit on their hands, but I doubt it, especially if one of our nuke-friendly players are scum.

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I wish it were possible for Fate to have both Airbase and Bunker.

You think SDC is town?

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I was trying to decide if that magua business was calculated or not is all.

I can't imagine why Magua would bank his creditability on a gambit like this if he were town. He was already doing fairly well in most players' eyes (with the exception of a few sketchy people). This move, however, reads almost too ballsy to me. Magua could very well have a nuke come DEFCON 1, why not just nuke SDC then?

From this argument SDC doesn't move much, and Magua looks considerably worse.

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but if we go to total war and start nuking and kill all the scum, won't that mean scum do not get a nightkill?

As opposed to now, when we have to lynch and shit which means scum will have a chance to shoot at us?

Now that we're officially on DEFCON 4, this is just pure fluff. If anything, you're deliberately refusing to discuss actual things going on. Unless this is leading you somewhere, then I dislike it.

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Nooot in favor of a Magua d1 death. I'd say he can die later if he doesn't go from setup stuff->good contentz but that applies to a lot of players at this point.

But what about this gambit? That's the kicker.

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did this ever happen.

Pot, meet kettle. You may not have promised anything concrete, but you haven't really given us anything either.


I mean, clearly Mina is more guilty than you are, but you should work on improving yourself, friend.

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Hinduragi reads as straight-up insincere in all of his posts.

Our guts differ unless you can show me something solid.

Regfan is scum for saying "we should organize our claims" and then not a thing to help it.

This.

Recent events put inHim up to maybe Town.

Nope.

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Why don't I make your list either?

Perceptive, even if it's about you.

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mina/magua/pooky/kats are all town before i go.

Bad, seemingly random, set of predictions. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that SJ has absolutely nothing to back up his Mina or Pooky reads whatsoever.

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Seriously, this whole lynch trade bullshit is going to kill two of my town reads.

Agree in the case of Magua. I have no idea how you see SDC as town though.

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I'm still attempting to fully grasp the benefits and negatives of each role, I don't think that puts me in any position to lead an organisation.

You may not fully recognize how controversial this position is. If you really believe this, you need to back it up or retract it.

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Awesome. Explain reading both Mina and I as scum. Cause I don't think you can be town and in good faith make that connection.

Easy. You both are sucking so far. Clear enough for you?

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I reiterate - choosing Fallout Shelter, Fail Safe, eavesdrop, CI over a Nuke is a sub-optimal and anti-town move for town.

Nope. Eavesdrop, CI, and Fallout Shelter are all acceptable powers for the town.

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Eavesdrop seemed to be useful for town in DEFCON 2.0 at least. Don't write it completely out, but it takes a certain mindset to be able to crack whatever codes the scum inevitably use.

Why are you afraid to smack ooba down for this? Even if you think he's town, there's no reason to pussyfoot around the issue.

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Because after that first pick, your odds of getting your second pick are abysmally low, and you will likely end up with a Silo.

This may be true, but this is quite an assumption. You're assuming that there will be a wide range of people picking unique abilities at their number one slot. While I agree there is certainly a substantial drop off from 1 to 2, this seems like a little overkill.

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I'm too lazy to actually assign people draft lists or calculate statistics or account for a billion other role interactions.

What a complete waste of an opportunity to actually have done something productive (I don't mean you should've done what I quoted, I mean that you admitting to actually considering this as a valid option is bad).

I would like to see you gone much sooner rather than later.

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LOL

This may be a contradiction to what you said in post 165. Please explain.

CLAIMING COUNTERINTELLEGENCE IS A SCUMCLAIM AND WILL BE NUKED ON SIGHT.

Don't take it.

It's on my list. Deal with it.

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And hey, I'm not interested in mechanics at all this game. I don't care whether you choose Air Base or Fallout Shelter or Counter. I've just announced that I'm going to lurk until DEFCON 3.

Are you seriously just admitting that you're not willing to give us any information on your role slot at all (aside from the crap you've already given us)? As if I needed another reason to advocate for your immediate lynch.

By the way, just curious, do you think I talked/thought about the mechanics in DEFCON 2.0 (in which I was scum)?

Do I think you would use WIFOM to make yourself look townie? Yes.

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Magua definitely talked about mechanics but he basically ran the show about it.

Have you still not addressed Magua's lynch trading? If you have, I apologize, but I don't think you have. Ergo, I don't like how you've ignored it

while

calling Magua untouchable town.

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OUTPLAYED. MY TOWN READ WAS A TRAP AND YOU FELL RIGHT INTO IT.

If you follow through on this, then I'll cut you some slack. If me and you aren't on a Mina wagon tomorrow, then you're going to be facing my wrath.

(it was pretty obviously a fucking joke, I'm not going to change my town read on her just because

she

thinks I should, in fact since she didn't even see why she was a town read in the first place, idc)

What a shame. Back to the scumlist you go, I guess. You two lovebirds can see each other in hell (scum don't go to heaven).

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Ya'all need to turn in your roles so I can scumhunt based on something other than set-up plans.

You're scumhunting?

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YOU THINK YOU CAN TAKE DOWN THE SDC?
WE ARE LEGION

Magua, maybe I'd be willing to lose you both after all.

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There's plenty to look at between SDC and Magua, myself and inhim and Hez vs. SpyreX.

Why haven't you commented on any of it?

Let us not forget that Mina took the same position, regardless if she used prettier words to do so or not.

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Also, I haven't really gotten into this game yet, which is why I want to get to DEFCON 3 (more action)

Since you're falling right into their trap (PROTIP: There's no way you can talk your way out of this and look good, Toast. You'll only look worse and worse or, by some miracle, stay at the same level of "willing to lynch, even if not the favorite".), you might as well elaborate on why it isn't you haven't been able to get into this game. I see you haven't casted a hypothetical vote. I see you haven't address a number of serious proposals and allegations (Magua's lynch trading, Mina's scumminess, SCD's list, Kat's proposal, etc etc).

In conclusion, THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO CASES.

You're killing me, Toast. I don't want to come after you, but you're digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole. By all means, if you disagree with the scum predictions, then come out against them. Don't just sit here and dismiss them though. It doesn't make you look good at all.

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In all honesty, I didn't post yesterday partly because I couldn't find a breaking strategy with no loopholes (Aircraft Carrier/the terrorist's free draft choice/Fail Safe/Submarine/double-kills on the Battleshipped player/Counterintelligence all seemed to get in the way), and partly just because I was lazy that day and not in the mood to get into a protracted argument over which minor power role was better. But, um, if you actually took that explanation seriously, you should be telling people to kill me with fire, not "grudgingly accepting" it.

Joking or not, there's still no real content here (pitter patter with Vi and SJ notwithstanding). I mean, yeah, you made a couple of points, which is more than I can say for some others, but I'm not voting based wholly on lurking. I don't like the tone of your posts either. I don't like empty promises. I don't like tongue-in-cheek stuff if it's coupled with lurking. I don't like you skirting the more serious issues (e.g. who you'll be voting for and why that's where you're going). I don't want you around if I'm going to get more of the same.

...but then you decided to actually do something, so now I'm not as sure.

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Town (THIS IS NOT NEGOTIABLE):
Mina
SDC
Luigi
Gamma

Pretty poor list. At least Pooky isn't-

Probably Town:
Pooky

...there.

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Everyone and I mean EVERYONE needs to affirm they aren't putting Airbase at #1. This way we have a guaranteed role out of scum's hands.

I'm not going to be guaranteeing that. Deal with it.

IM NOT OBVTOWN FFS

NOT EVEN CLOSE

IM A VIABLE FUCKIN MISLYNCH TARGET AS USUAL

ISNT THAT RIGHT RC?

This is correct.

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WHY ME

Ouch. And down goes gorilla.

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Town [From Strongest To Weakest]

SDC. All of their posts. Fucking obvious yet annoying town.
Mina: Town. #241. #310.
Gamma. Town: #15. #99. #137. #315.
Kats. Town: #24. #104. #247.
SpyreX: Town. #240. #312.
Magua: Town. #160. #162. #175.
Magister. Town. #150. #163.
Hez. Town. #193

Scum [From Strongest To Weakest]

Zhero: Scum. #27. #127.
AV: Scum. #212.
Toasty: Scum. #272. #295. Town. #303
Socio: Need to read into.
LLD: Town. #217. Scum. #234. #249.
Toog: Scum. #96

I've seen worse, but this is acceptable. Enough to keep you low on my death wish list, at least. I don't like the post numbers, because I have no idea what's moving you to read these people in this way without actually going back to look. I don't care enough to do so at the moment, but hopefully my willingness not to want you dead as any sort of priority will outweigh that. I have faith you'll comment more directly as the game moves on though.

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Mina actually makes a good point against swift justice. (about recieving a town read before doing anything) Too often I see scum throwing out town reads in an attempt to 'get in the good books' of town players, making themself a less attractive lynch target.

Sure. And given her post 310, I'm willing to lynch SJ over her.

All these town----->scum lists floating around now need to dissipate. I don't need a laundry list of every player in the game (who everyone also happens to be reading), what people need is pointed attacks on those doing scummy things.

So you don't want to know what people are thinking? Maybe you won't have to if we go ahead and lynch you first, eh? I like how you say this and turn around and say...

Toasty, would you mind giving me a read (or even sentence or two) on the following players

Get out of here with this.

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[Toasty's] for nukin' not for lynchin but seriously now.

Agreed.

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So,
Regfan is town
Swift Justice is null (a lot of my problems with him aren't necessarily scummy, but I don't like his play)
Socio is scummy, he seems all over the place, is under the radar, doesn't support his reads with evidence.

See? You can get reads in DEFCON 4. I'm glad you made this post. This is something I can point to if anyone criticizes me for calling you townie.

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Yay I am being policy-lynched. Beware of meta, folks. I'm very vengeful. (This does not apply to the scum on my future wagon -- nor
does this apply if I flip scum -- but any town who policy lynch me beware I WILL get my revenge)

What did you have, like, three people lay some heat on you? Dana turned it up a bit, but come on. This doesn't read townie to me, this reads like an paranoid scumbag.

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how so?

Gross. Just as bad as gorilla.

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This ultimately comes down to a f*#%#*% old boys club. If SpyreX or someone else more well known had said "I want to nuke so and so and I'm doing so for sure" nobody would bat an eye. I am very very very angry right now.

You can be as bitter as you want, but know that I'm not interested in losing you because of an "old boys club", but because this attitude is scummy.

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On the plus side AV looks quite a bit better after this engagement.

I disagree. I think AV is baiting him. There's no reason to continue with Hez. Scum or not, he's not sided with this town. He should be gotten rid of.

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@SDC: AirBase is on my troop deployment list .. Maybe at my #1 spot too ..

Thank you. You'll be my number 1 townie for this.

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Do you honestly believe that not a single town is going to put Air Base on their list? We ARE supposed to be WIFOMing it up on our roles after all. What if another town, say, me, takes Air Base but we all pretend you have Air Base.

You were so close to beating ooba. If you would've said this before ooba did, I would've given you massive townie points. Still, this is deserving of some props. Anyone who will not roll over to SDC this game will get some love from me.

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When was this? (Can you link it?)

You should just assume that it's always happening.

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The fact we won't have nukes coming from Fate/Reck.

I really hate how you have been going back and forth on this. Do you think they are town or not?

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Hez can still superdie, he's a way better player than he's shown here and he's abusing the I'M ANGRYMcOMGUS to try and either get a town read for idiotic levels of recklessness or just try to scare people away from noosing him.

Agree 100%. I'd prefer to nuke him rather than lynch him, but as long as he dies, I'm happy.

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admittedly I have no knowledge of his meta to know if he normally digs his own grave or not.

I don't care if he's done the same thing in a hundred games as town, I don't want him around. He's completely unhelpful.

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I obviously read what was in the angle brackets. Now could you answer my question about what makes me scum about my response? Because you say you want me dead for it. I do not see how the post "waffles" nor how "saying nothing but I'm willing to policy lynch hez" makes me scummy. I'm really confused as to why you are trying to make this difficult for me. Do you just really want me to be scum?

You know what, dana? You still suffer from the same issue I had with you from the very first game I remember playing with you. You're far too self-interested. Anything that's not about you is put on the backburner while you focus solely on what concerns you. That level of self-interest is unfitting of a town player, frankly. This is why I see you as scum. This is why I see you as scum a majority of the times I play against you.

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I've played with scum AV and town AV before and haven't seen anything that backed either read.

We should probably lynch him to be safe.

Also your post 414 is arguably the best post of the game (barring possibly a couple of Magua's posts and Mina's turnaround post 310 that took her from the worst on my scumlist to null).

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I generally ride the line to make the ignorants think keeping me around is a good idea.

Call me ignorant then.

I cannot confirm nor deny that I may or may not put AIRBASE NUMBA ONE.

Townpoints.

Me + ooba + Toogeloo + SP are part of the cool customers alliance. The rest of you didn't have enough balls to join.

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I notice your scumlist only contains extremely easy targets. Why is that?

Don't you dare go there.

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I just felt the need to tell you that I hate you for writing this post. No, seriously. Reading it overcame me with the powerful urge to reach through my computer screen and smack you upside the head. Actual physical rage.

First off, I'm now assuming that CSL is, for all intents and purposes, not playing this game. From what I can tell, a handful of these powers are slightly altered from their previous incarnations (notably Eavesdrop and Fail Safe). This has definitely changed the way I ranked them.

Nominate Hindu as our resident Percy replacement (consider putting Eavesdrop as #1 on your list, Hindu), but I also welcome anyone else who feels as though they can make the best of Eavesdrop to do it as well.

In no particular order:
Best lynches = dana, Hez, ML
Better lynches = SDC, SJ, Pooky
Good lynches = gorilla, Reg, AV, Toogeloo, Mina, inHim, Magua
Be more readable = Vi, MoI, Kat, IS
Best townies = Gamma, Hindu, Spy, Toast, ooba, SP, LL

A couple of very debatable names that I struggled to put in the spots they're at (especially Magua, LL, and Mina), but this is my honest assessment so far. My list is also already in.

[RedCoyote]

To all those declaring AirBase as a #1 target:
SDC is probTown. In DEFCON 2.0 Fate wanted AirBase as his highest priority, and didn't gogo gambitzz for it. He just stayed quiet and plotted for it in the QT. Hence, reading him as town here, hence let him have AirBase.

Even if we both agreed he was a strong townread (which I absolutely, 100%, do not agree with, but let's just assume this), even then I would resist giving him a free choice at powers.

First off, just because Fate did something in Defcon 2.0 has no bearing on what he will or won't do this game. Second off, he could be scum. Sure, the scum wouldn't necessarily benefit from this power as much as town would, but there is still a third party here. Third, the scum should in no way be given a roadmap as to who is getting what power. The sole exception being Fail Safe, in which case Magua laid out a fairly strong case for it being unfavorable when compared with an active nuclear silo.

It's a bad move all around, and for you to defend it so hard makes me nervous about your intentions.

RC: I kept pushing Hez because he was being inconsistent in what he was saying and acting all scummy.

I do not believe you didn't realize what was going on with him. I do not believe you to be that obtuse. Granted, I was looking at it after it happened, but the signs were clearly there. I think you were baiting him, and this doesn't convince me otherwise in the slightest.

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PLEASE explain to me how ooba going against A GAMEBREAKING STRATEGY THAT HELPS TOWN WIN makes him YOUR NUMBER ONE FUCKIN TOWNIE

It's not game breaking, I don't think you're town-aligned, and I like most of the things ooba has had to say so far. That about sum it up for you?

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I said "everything worth revealing".

Well, that's still debatable. I know at least in one of the previous games we used the order of player's lists to help us figure out which powers were left and which weren't. I don't see why that wouldn't be true here.

dissatisfying conclusion long after the Total War decision was made.

Definitely weak, but I think you're being too harsh. The question angle I will give you though. Especially the second question. It almost seems like Hindu may have knew the answer when he asked.

First paragraph reads from scum. The commentary on Fail Safe is sketchy in itself, never mind that it was founded on ill premises; it and the Counterintelligence commentary in #5 and #6 suggests that Hinduragi was trying for both of them. It looks like he's trying to find what he can pick safely.

I want to defend him, but this is a fair criticism. Hindu is the one who needs to respond to this anyways.

It looks horrible but I don't think it's enough to count out what he had done up to that point.

Yeah, this is what I'm struggling with. This will probably be my ultimate conclusion, but damnit if I'm not going to be dragged there kicking and screaming.

Why is it that I can only see you saying bad things in your wall to ToastyToast but you have him down as one of your solid Town reads?

Toast is better than the sum of his posts, I think. I don't know. I'd be lying to you if I told you I thought he was scum. I realize sometimes we have to look past that, but I really don't get scum vibes off him. This, plus I really thought that his post 354 was a solid turning point in the direction of his posts. If he makes more posts like that, I think you'll come around.

[RedCoyote]

Where did ooba say he was putting Airbase at #1? That's not the post I read.

[RedCoyote]

@SDC: AirBase is on my troop deployment list ..

Maybe

at my #1 spot too ..

It's on my list too. It may be at my #1 spot.

[RedCoyote]

Since you both, even the post's author (!), are deliberately being thick-headed, I took ooba's "maybe" to mean without certitude or absolution. Obviously if ooba didn't mean that, then my calling him townie for that post is wholly retracted. Anyone who gives the scum a road map to how players are choosing their Troop orders is scummy.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, it's crystal clear.

You're not town worthy of keeping alive. I'm the only player worthy of keeping alive, because I'm the only one I know who has an American role PM.

I have Airbase on my list, and I'm neither changing that nor telling you what spot I put it at.

---

Ooba shows RC to be lying

Uh, no. He says he might put it at #1, and that willingness to stand up to SDC is what garnered him townpoints. If he said he was definitely putting it at #1, that would be a different story entirely.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, no, I mean he'll be on the townie side of my list when I draw it up (at the end of that long post).

[RedCoyote]

Spoiler: You brought this on yourselves

RC having an unsupported scumread of me (well supported by way of cheeky, "he COULD be scum" comments) is on record.

I don't like you trying to control Troop deployment. Your scum/town reads are all over the place (namely on me, inHim, and Pooky). And Fate's cutesy scum claims make me nervous. You'd be a great first lynch.

You're calling me scum AGAIN this game and you are WRONGAGAIN.

How convincing.

Also, can you say paranoid?

---

I'd rather you had Airbase than any of the 'Trollers' for a number of reasons truth be told.

Who would this include?

---

I can't see why he'd pull this stunt as scum in this game. As SK I can see, but not as Eurotrash.

That's just straight WIFOM. Maybe he pulled this stunt because he knew people would say that he'd never pull this stunt as scum.

The fact of the matter is, he's making the scum's job easier in picking their Troop lists. That's scummy, and I'm going to call him out for that.

---

ESPECIALLY since you know my meta is to claim scum ONLY as town.

Right.

---

@RC: What do you not get about my stance on SDC?

You seemingly went back and forth three times. See my large post where I've quoted you.

the fact that they're dying before MYLO to prevent any shenanigans should mean that if you are town, you should have no reason to want to stop them.

What are they going to do? Have someone nuke them?

---

If anyone wonders why I tend to not produce on a large scale, you might want to consider the possibility that it's because everyone likes to ignore what I actually say and just call me scummy instead. My conversation with Vi is case in point.

Cry me a river, kid.

---

You keep changing your mind on the Fail Safe thing, do you suggest going for it or no?

Don't. At first I thought it was reasonable, but I didn't really compare the vengeful kills to a nuclear silo, you know, pound for pound. The nukes would be more of a threat to scum.

If you think dana is ALWAYS too self-interested, then self-interested playstyle from dana should be null, not scummy. Comes off as if you are uncommitted to your position on him.

This is a fair point, but I don't put much stock into that sort of metastuff. I was bringing it up more as an anecdotal opening than anything else. The point is, he's overly concerned about himself and how other people see him in comparison to his overall contributions so far. I don't find that to be indicative of a town-aligned player.

Of your reads, who is your strongest scum read and who is your strongest town read?

At this point either ML or AV would be my strongest scumreads. My strongest townread is probably SP.

---

Blind alliance cause of SCDAIRBASEREACTION?

I wasn't being literal. I'll try to add more smileys the next go around.

---

This, I like.

---

@Mina:

How likely did you think it was that you could come up with a breaking plan for the powers? You had experience with DEFCON 2, but the tone I'm getting from your posts in #241 and #253 is that you put some significant time into it. True/false?

There's no game breaking plan. There's just some bullshit "everyone let me have Airbase so I can get as far in this game as possible not because I want to do what's best for the town but because I'm in it for myself" plan.

---

I don't read people

I nuke people

Then that would be a good reason to rid ourselves of you as soon as possible.

---

Um, no. What I was inquiring at around the beginning of defcon 4 was if we publicly (in thread) allocated 4 players to each role. It was said somewhere that the more people picking each role, less likely scum were to get it. Obviously scum could deviate, but it would be detrimental to them. How is this statement in any way shape or form scummy?

Because the scum have a QT to plan in...?

All these town----->scum lists floating around now need to dissipate. I don't need a laundry list of every player in the game (who everyone also happens to be reading), what people need is pointed attacks on those doing scummy things.

Trying to get mutual reads from other players is very protown.

These two statements contradict. You're saying by "laundry list" you mean something else, I guess, but I don't see how. What lists are striking you as random? True, I've seen untenable reads (a large part of my dislike of SDC), but those are just pieces in part of a greater whole.

I'm assuming you're referring to Regfan's post. If so, do you not suspect he will simply be building off of this? I mean, I doubt throwing those reads out there for fun.

I am going to be nuking (should I have a nuke) the player with the lowest post count as soon as we get to DEFCON 1. Don't be that player.

This is a good idea in theory, but I hope you take into account post length as well.

---

^RedCoyote disproving Hinduragi vote [/injoke]

---

Hey, SpyreX? Gamma? Do you actually think Hez is scum, or are you just policy-wagoning him?

This. This. This.

I was a bit too unclear in my condemnation of Hez. He needs to be dealt with via nukes. He should not be a lynch consideration. His lynch will do nothing but cause a pointless back and forth over policy that won't necessarily apply to the actual game.

---

I've come close to revealing whether I was going for Nukes or PRs twice now >_> It's quite easy to let it slip whether you're nuking or not. A couple of other people have already done so. I figure if I keep making the point then people will stop doing it/I'll remember not to myself.

Perhaps for scum it is. I have no interest in showing my hand at all. The only people I could imagine wanting to do so would be doing so because they want to draw attention away from them (scum).

---

In penance for indulging myself, I'm going to be good and not

make a snarky response to

answer Red's points on me unless he asks for a defence.

No, you've actually done well to hold back on this. I'm really glad you didn't, in fact. It makes it seem like you're not concerning yourself with petty criticism and are more focused on the big picture. Your last few posts have all been solid, so I'm fully backpedaling from any real heavy scummy stance I had against you.

I'm more concerned with people who saw you townie for no reason (inHim being one, but I know there was at least one more).

---

I considered holding the information, but reflected that CI may as well be a Miller equivalent claim in this game given the way Kat eschewed the role for town players. I knew I was going to put it in my top spot when the game began, because I prefer denial over giving myself a PR. I had a similar list in DC2. Claiming it earlier was to show I wasn't worried about claiming it, and to let the Scanners and Eavesdropper know that they can trust their results (so long as they can trust me).

If I'm NKed, then lol@scum for killing more or less a Vanilla role at this point, which still serves it's purpose of protecting American PRs.

I really, really like this post. This is exactly why I came out against what SDC and, to a lesser extent, Kat were doing. Toogeloo is town.

---

Exactly whom are you defending yourself from? The town as a whole? I didn't even mention any of those points. For so early in the day, isn't this is a bit excessive?

This is precisely what I was thinking when reading that post. AV, my poor AV, has got to eat the first lynch this game, I'm afraid.

---

If I had a gun to my head, I'd say... no. He's cheeky. He's not rock solid scum by a margin.

However, in this setup? Hell no. He's not getting the CHANCE to be cheeky.

This is what your nuclear silo is for, my dear Spy.

---

vote: HezLucky

Glad to see we've got 4 blatantly pro-town players. It gives me a little faith in the American people.

No mention of AV, AV's wagon, AV's voters, or the criticism of the Hez wagon = scum

---

Vote: Internet Stranger

(L-11)
because Zhero was a B4574rD and I put more faith in that than the HezLucky and AurorusVox wagons.

I hope this is more you criticizing the current leading wagons than it is you seriously contending that this is valid rationale.

(What Magua said in post 605)

---

I don't vote until I'm completly caught up with the thread. You also realize the contradiction in this post, right? You're attacking me for not placing a vote while claiming me scum and witholding your vote.

This is a great point, AV.

---

I never said "I'm not lurking, so I'm not scum." I'm saying that scum can feasibly just sit on their hands and wait for today to kick it up a notch, if they wanted, and no one would really care all that much.

Yeah, but it's almost like your were begging the question just so you could make this point.

Is everything I'm saying just digging the hole deeper? Am I really acting that scummy?
I'm asking that honestly because I'm town and if I'm just distracting everyone then I'll just shut up for a day or two so you can all decide who (other than me) you think is scum.

"What do I have to do to get you guys to unvote me?! ;_;"

My poor AV! Like Mina, I feel guilty voting you. What are you? France? Germany? I'm sure I'll miss whatever your once glorious nation provided this world.

---

actually, screw it, i'm going to follow my heart here - this is a scummy post

It is. I'm surprised you're the first one to bring it up.

---

As promised, here are the bastard Eurotrash scum that are attempting to manipulate the game early on by subliminally putting out these bullshit lists of scum/town without any useful information.

1) I took notes all throughout this game. They were behind the spoiler tag. Those elaborated on why the people were where they were.
2) Once the players recieve their role PMs, the game is officially a go. Not bullshit lists. Players can be read from the start of the game to the very end, and you know that.

OMGUS!

Vote: Vi

This is a horrible vote. Not because of the OMGUS, which makes no difference, but because there is no groundswell for a Vi lynch. Vi is not going to be lynched. Likewise, Vi voting you was just as bad (actually it was probably a little worse) for the same reasons.

---

Looking at AV in Defcon III now. Ok, so here's what I got from Defcon II AV.

Your entire defense of AV seems completely derived from meta with the exception of your opening statement where you admit that he is "picking his words too carefully".

Unless I'm wrong, that is a suspicious thing to do in your eyes, right?

This is not a good post outside of your support of a dana wagon and your dismissing the Hez wagon.

---

I still prefer a Hez lynch, though, because he's 100% anti-town, whereas Hinduragi is 60-70% scum.

There are so many controversial things in this sentence alone... why don't you just apologize for making such a bad statement?

We need to lynch either AV, dana, ML, Pooky, or SDC today. In that order.

Vote: AurorusVox

[RedCoyote]

You know what?

Unvote

;

vote: danakillsu

Either dana or AV would make wonderful lynches, but I'd rather try and prop this wagon up some as the main competitor to the AV wagon (as opposed to the Hez wagon). This is not in response to Hindu's 677. Speaking of,

You know what pisses me off? I posted a pretty damning piece on the entire AV wagon and it gets ignored.

• Your entire defense of AV seems completely derived from meta with the exception of your opening statement where you admit that he is "picking his words too carefully".
  
  Unless I'm wrong, that is a suspicious thing to do in your eyes, right?

I would love to engage you over this, Hindu.

@Everyone: If we could make the first lynch a competition between dana and AV, I think we'd be off to such a good start. Both of these lynches are based on very solid ground at this point. Hez, well, not so much.

[RedCoyote]

You think AurorusVox is scum but needs a competitor wagon? OH NO, GET BACK ON THAT AVTRAIN CHOOCHOO.

I think they're both scum.

And every lynch would always benefit from a competitor wagon. Later in the game, after flips have occurred, we can look to these "either or" decisions through the context of VCA.

If the dana wagon supplants the Hez wagon, I think we'll be in such good shape to make players choose between these two for a lynch.

dana vs AV > Hez vs AV > One strong lynch and a bunch of aimless votes (Vi's and IS' votes are good examples) > One strong lynch and everyone else not voting.

---

Love how all that is based on nothing but logic and doesn't try to get people to do what you want by simply telling them to do it. [/sarcasm]

Well, yeah, bro, because I'm town.

I'm thinking in the long term. I'm thinking, "How will people find the third/fourth scum on D4/5?" The best way to do this would be to force all players to commit their votes to logical, popular wagons. This doesn't mean I think other players shouldn't try to get their wagons more popular, but it just so happens that the two people I want to see dead the most are the first and third most popular vote getters. You better believe I'm going to be on my soapbox.

[RedCoyote]

If one was scum and one was Town there's a purpose to dueling wagons.

I don't see a point if both are scum.

As much as I appreciate your deference to my judgment, as crazy as it sounds, sometimes even I cannot predict scum perfectly.

Although I do think they are both scum, I'm realistic enough to think that that would, statistically speaking, be extremely improbable.

That being said, even if it were the case, wagonning two scum on the first day sounds like a good problem to have.

---

So RC, you want me to give up my intuition, to give up my ingenuity, give up my freedoms and follow the crowd of lemmings on their way to lynch AV? And you say that youre not a Eurotrash Socialist scumbag?

If you honestly think you can get a Vi wagon moving, then have at it. I'm just trying to save you some time.

[RedCoyote]

And why would I advocate a wagon on a person I thought was town anyways?

[RedCoyote]

So given you've completely backed away from your stance not an hour ago and now don't think both are scum

Uh, no. I do. I also know I will not predict the entire game correctly. Why am I not allowed to use that piece of knowledge in my scumhunting?

Given the fact that I think both dana and AV have a good chance at being scum, then it's more likely that I'm right about one of those predictions than it is if I advocated, say, Hez, who I do not consider to have a greater chance at being scum (over dana or AV).

[RedCoyote]

I see your point, inHim. My intention is not to derail the AV wagon but to prop up the dana wagon.

Mmm, this is a bit frustrating now because I see where y'all are coming from. I wasn't intending to pull any sort of trick. I, uh, I think I'm being a little too analytical and distant for my own good here. I think I'll just stop talking for a while.

[RedCoyote]

RC: You had Hez listed in your "best lynches" early on, today you've suddenly put dana vs. AV over him. What happened to make you think Hez was less likely to be scum and why didn't you mention that?

I did, it was just in the middle of my wall.

Hey, SpyreX? Gamma? Do you actually think Hez is scum, or are you just policy-wagoning him?

This. This. This.

I was a bit too unclear in my condemnation of Hez. He needs to be dealt with via nukes. He should not be a lynch consideration. His lynch will do nothing but cause a pointless back and forth over policy that won't necessarily apply to the actual game.