Return to Gambits (SK Win!)

[Amrun]

I'm on like page 5. I'm going to need a little time.

[Amrun]

Btw I was going to replace Monk but DK is on my blacklist. So instead I replaced Quilford. Lulz.

P-edit: It's not my first time at the rodeo (though, coincidentally, you were my mod for the first time at the rodeo).

[Amrun]

I'm sorry... I'll buckle down now.

[Amrun]

Guys, do you know how much reading a day 1 with dk in it hurts my brain? You ought to be grateful!

I'm still struggling through.

[Amrun]

Today is post or die. Working on it now. I apologize. Life is getting the best of me.

[Amrun]

OKAY GUYS.

I felt extra bad about procastinating here, so I did nearly a pbpa. It is optional, but not required, reading.

However, before I fully unveil it, I have an important question to ask PeregrineV: How do you think the traitor mechanic works?

Until he answers this question, if you are bored, you may read my thoughts on Day 1 as I read through. You don't actually have to, as I will post a summary and re-post any outstanding questions after Peregrine answers my question. These were mostly notes for myself, but I figured since I took the time to do them, I might as well make it available for public consumption. It clearly details my evolving reads etc.

Spoiler: Day 1 Reactions

Jil disagreeing with someone, like in post 52, is town points for her, even though in post 57, I dislike her concern for hpw townie she appears to others.

Cobbler's 59 is an excessively townie post.

Jackalope's 70 is bad - reads like scum nervous at other players being declared town, trying to sow the seeds of paranoia and dissension. Do not like.

Agree with earworm's 72, but correct theory can come from either alignment. Similar with Surye's 79.

Cworl's 82 is a lot of complaining without any actual effort towards moving the game forward. In other words, it gives the appearance of being pro-town without actually being so. Unsure whether or not this is an intentional smokescreen, though.

I like Surye's 86.

Mask's 91 makes me really uncomfortable - sk or traitor suspicion out of nowhere? Why not scum? Very strange and makes Mask far more likely scum in my eyes.

Cobbler's 95 is bad. Too concerned with how others think.

Surye's 97: Why answer for jil?

Surye's 98 indirectly defends Cobbler.

Nocmen's 107: Why is discussion of theory revolving around RVs WIFOM in any way, shape, or form? Why did you feel the need to point it out? What conclusion are you attempting to draw, and why didn't you state that conclusion instead of leaving it vague?

Nocmen's 110 expands on the WIFOM point, but it isn't WIFOM. At all. This is a reach. Most of what I don't like about it is the sideways manner in which he attacks earworm. It's too indirect. (Edit: Answered in 228, but I still don't like the answer.)

vezok's 116 is hilarious. "Douche asshole shit."

Don't necessarily agree with Ironhead's 121, but this post and the rest of his posting give me a townread on him. (Similar with CMAR, but I haven't bothered commenting on that since CMAR is now dead.)

Sathoris' 124 is bad. The theory part where he disagrees with Cobbler's massclaim idea is fine, but neutral, but the way he "notes" the fact that Cobbler proposed a potentially bad idea rubs me the wrong way. Sathoris' vote is on CMAR for a very weak reason; why not back this up with a vote on Cobbler?

Vezok's 125-126 give me a fairly strong townread on vezok. Both him and Cobblerfone are attempting to break the game and feeling it out in a way that seems genuine.

Surye's 131 is :goodposting:, particularly about Sorasgoof and Jackalope. I don't necessarily agree with everying Surye says in this post, but it is a townie post.

Mask 134 gives me more a sense of "trying to look pro-town" than actually being pro-town. "Well I thought of this idea but I just realized it sucks, but I'll post about it anyway!" Also dislike the use of smilies and the attack on Surye - and he waits until post 135 to lay down a vote. Why?

C-Worl 138 shows a little bit of effort, at least. Feels genuine. His defense of himself in 140 is sufficient.

earworm 144 is a good post.

DeityKabuto 151 - THAT IS THE FIRST THING YOU SAY ABOUT THE GAME?! a;lkfa;sdlfj This is why I could not replace in when he was alive.

Ironhead 153 is :goodposting:

Cobbler 154: CMAR isn't a goon or serial killer? What the fuck? How could you EVER come to that conclusion? (Edit: Answered in 159. I don't like the answer, but it exists.)

Nocmen's 156 makes no sense.

Cobbler's vote on Surye in 166 is bad.

Nocmen's 174 is blatantly incorrect. Ironically, he is accusing Surye of not reading carefully, when Surye is doing so and Nocmen is not. (Edit: Addressed in 184.)

Cobbler's 189 is bad because I've played with Cobblertown and he had plenty of suspicions of his own. Everyone has SOME suspicions... Even as scum, he expressed suspicions, as well as when he was town.

Cobbler 192: People did suspect you in Cthulhu, though.

I like Nocmen's 194.

Sora 196 is valid, though a little late.

Sathoris 199 is terrible. How is not caring what people think a scumtell? This is a towntell, especially in jilynne. Also, she votes jily for having few scumreads, and then fencesits on Cobbler HARDCORE without mentioning that Cobbler did the exact same thing Sathoris is voting jily for, and further into the game with a lot more thought put into it.

Nocmen 200 is a good post.

Sathoris 209 resolves some outstanding issues from 199.

Mask 222 annoys me. I'M NOT LURKING LOLOLOL *proceeds to lurk*

Sora 224 is :goodposting:

Ironhead 227: I don't understand the supposed case on earworm at all, at this point.

Nocmen's 228: Wait, if you could vote for both earworm and Cobblerfone, you would? You see no confliction here? At all?

earworm 223: Though I generally agree with most of earworm's theory discussions, his posts are notably sparse of any sort of scumhunting thus far.

wredfar 225: Notes one of the things I previously noted in C-Worl, which gives me good vibes.

Sathoris 239: WHY DO YOU STILL NOT NOTE THAT COBBLER DID THE SAME THING? After you supposedly agreed with Nocmen about something he was saying about this, you should be referencing both jil and Cobbler when you talk of scumless lists, and yet you are not. This indicates that you are not genuinely scumhunting and just sheeped Nocmen's posts about Cobbler that were happening last time you were on to bolster your case - which basically says that your case is entirely fabricated.

Pine 243: VT claim. Ew.

Pine 245 is poor reasoning.

Pine 247 is WIFOM but I find it oddly convincing.

Pine 249: Your sample size is too small. He actually completed SpyreX's Dynasty Warriors first, and even though he won, he wasn't a townread by far. Speed Mafia is another completed scumgame in which he was far from a universal townread.

Sathoris 251 shows he is following anything shiny. Shows no conviction in his reads. Pine vote isn't terrible, though.

Pine 274 is valid.

Nocmen 277 is a stretch.

CMAR 282: Aw, CMAR is a youngin'.

Ironhead 286: Why aren't you advancing the game?

Sathoris 287 is okay.

Nocmen 291: The repeating of not wanting to vote Pine "right now" is a little weird.

Sora 304 is bad. Willfully not advancing the gamestate or scumhunting.

CWorl 319 is weak.

320 is Mask's underwhelming catchup post in which he manages to completely misread Surye, full of old news and distractions about 13 year olds and alts.

Mask 333 is hypocritical and a bad case. LOL SETUP SPEC IS BAD RIGHT GAIZ? Reads like he ISOed Surye, picked a couple of things that looked vaguely scummy to talk about, and winged it.

DK 337 makes me laugh.

Cworl 346 is more complaining about the gamestate without doing anything to advance it. He's still doing reaction-testy, RVS-type votes and then complaining that no one is close to a lynch.

Ironhead 352 is guilty of exactly the same thing.

Mask 365 makes me conflicted. It seems like he is defending DK, which upon first read, allotted him townpoints, but on second read, he seems TOO SURE - and is giving DK townpoints for the same thing he is giving Surye scumpoints for. BUT he's open about that. I just wish he'd explain it because I am confused.

Mask 366: Aaaand 3 minutes later he shamelessly bandwagons DK.

Mask 373: No, that is not what distancing means.

Mask 374: He makes a good point - why isn't jily voting? This is a scumtell I've observed in her, but I feel otherwise townie about her ... though I can't recall her scumreads and that is a bad sign.

jil 387: Openly calling DK a policy lynch, has no suspects. Ugh.

Sora 385: The active lurking is getting really old.

Pine 399: Has no one even commented on Pine's stupid claim?

DK 403-404: Actual scumhunting. Color me surprised.

DK 412: Aaaand this is the DK I know and blacklist.

PeregrineV 449: How do you know DK is claiming his real role and is not scum? (Edit: Answered in 454, but badly.)

Surye 450-451 is :goodposting:

Sathoris 470 is good.

[Amrun]

Oookay, so, I made a dumb mistake in thinking, so my question to Peregrine isn't as important anymore, though I would still like him to answer it.

Here are my Day 2 notes:

Spoiler: Day 2 Reactions

Ironhead 476: WHY do you believe scum are more likely to join the wagon after the role reveal? However, limiting his scumhunting pool to a pool of players that includes himself doesn't seem very scummy.

earworm 485: How could they? Why are you rolefishing?

Nocmen 489: What about earworm's post was suspicious?

Cobbler 490: Dislike the vote on earworm, but he makes a good point about Iron.

Mask 495: Blatant sheeping.

Surye 510 :goodposting:

Iron 512 :goodposting:

Peregrine 514 totally dodges the point. The issue is that PeregrineV showed far too much certainty in talking about DK's alignment, not whether the lynch was going through or not. HOWEVER, thinking CMAR is the traitor is idiotic and my gut tells me not understanding the traitor mechanic is probably a towntell, though it could be faked. UGH. I was so convinced PV was was scum until the end of this post. (Edit: this towntell is now invalid.)

earworm 515: Why did you emptyquote 514? (Edit: Answered in 518, though I don't get it.)

Nocmen 516 sucks.

Peregrine 525 also sucks. Shows no motivation to do original scumhunting, and his jab at Surye is just plain silly and insanely hypocritical.

earworm 536: Okay, good to know. Had townreads on both of these, so not entirely surprised.

Ironhead 537: Do you have any previous experience playing with vezok?

Peregrine 542 is flawed, but not scummy.

Pine 549 is incorrect theory. Hiders should go for townreads when there is no hider tracker in the set-up.

Mask 550 is good.[/vote]

Conclusions/outstanding questions/votes to come in next post.

[Amrun]

SHIT. Mod, can you fix that spoiler tag? Sorry!

[Amrun]

Questions:

Mask: In your post 91, why did you leap to traitor or SK rather than scum? In post 365, why did you allot Surye scumpoints and DK townpoints for the exact same thing? Why then did you vote DK 3 minutes later? Also, you are definitely using the term "distancing" incorrectly.

Nocmen: In your post 228, did you see no confliction in being willing to vote for both Earworm and Cobbler? As stated in 48, what about earworm's post was suspicious?

Ironhead 476: WHY do you believe scum are more likely to join the wagon after the role reveal?

Pine: WHY did you claim VT?!

[Amrun]

Jilynne: Please give reads on every player in the game.

[Amrun]

EBWOP: I am asking about your post about earworm today, 489, not 48, Nocmen.

Sorry for the disorganization; I'm working from my phone.

[Amrun]

Reads:

SCUM

PeregrineV - Shows no interest in finding scum; probably slipped about DK's alignment.

Mask - Has soome good posts, but they are far outweighed with bad posts. Suspecting CMAR of being traitor or SK earned him a lot of scumpoints.

Nocmen - His general pushes are pretty lazy and never very solid.

Sorasgoof - Had one very good post and has active lurked ever since, willfully not advancing the gamestate.

Pine - Weird claim, hasn't contributed as much as I know he is able.

Jilynne - Has dropped some towntells, but also scumtells, such as lack of suspicion/vote.

C-Worl - Being replaced, but offered little content in favor of complaining.

Surye - I feel confident Surye is pro-town.

Earworm - Claimed Hider; I believe him.

Ironhead - Declared innocent; I believe it.

TOWN


VOTE: PeregrineV

[Amrun]

I forgot vezok; put him below C-Worl and above Surye.

In addition, I found CMAR/SG very townie and Sathoris quite scummy.

[Amrun]

I forgot something about the set-up myself.

He didn't misunderstand anything.

Sorry; I knew I was forgetting someone.

You're below vezok and above Surye.

Fuck this; here it is again:

SCUM

PeregrineV
Mask
Nocmen
Sorasgoof
Pine
C-Worl
Vezokpiraka
Cobbler
Surye
Earworm
Ironhead

TOWN

[Amrun]

FFFF I FORGOT JILYNNE I GIVE UP YOU GET THE IDEA

[Amrun]

Pine: why claim it if you are then going to unclaim it? True or not, what was the purpose of your claim?

[Amrun]

Yes, but they are also more wary of hopping on after claims. They are at least equally likely to fan the flames earlier on.

[Amrun]

Nocmen, you didn't answer my second question.

[Amrun]

While I suspected cobbler, and still do, earworm's vote seemed like the most possible one to

bus

You mean "push" right? I was going to say scumslip but that makes no sense since I know I'm town, and earworm is like 99% confirmed town.

No, bus makes sense in context.

Jil, how are we overeager? Why is Cobbler scummy? Where is your vote?

[Amrun]

Jily: you think earworm is scum? Why?

[Amrun]

What role do you think earworm has?

[Amrun]

Why no vote? No comment at all on my entire slot?

[Amrun]

Why no vote?

This may be a mafia discussion issue but REALLY, does asking this ever catch someone as scum because I've never seen it done and don't get the point of it being used these days.

Yes, and with startling frequency.I recently vigged scum for it in a Hard Boiled.

Oobviously I read the post about traitor/sk while asking the question. I wanted more than'that or I wouldnt have asked it.

So... Now, you're saying you weren't implying DK was town and Surye was scum in that post? YEAH. OKAY.

And more SK hunting.

VOTE: The Mask

I bet he seriously did think CMAR was the traitor and killed him for it - hoping for a recruit.

Peregrine wagon still totally good, though.

P-edit: CUTE. Going after easy targets that clearly haven't even read the game and then setting up mislynches based upon it.

[Amrun]

Why would I put CMAR and Sathoris on my list? They are dead.

Your sk etc hunting seems to be taking precedence over your scumhunting, and you talk with more conviction about those suspicions.

[Amrun]

Perhaps I was a simple child growing up...ehm...I'm sure you'll do well in your pursuit of education, jily. (whatchu know bout dem VIs?)

Explain further please? I don't understand that.

I'm asking, what does an

alt

13 year old know about VIs/mafiascum lingo. Don't worry about it. It's not game related anyway.

I'm sorry but this game is kind of boring. There's no town coordination at all. It seems almost impossible to get anyone close to being lynched and at this point it seems like the thread has died. I voted someone for no reason and not a single person said a word about it.

Oh wow. So I had a thought that, in the spirit of coordination, we should lynch those players that we can base connections on. This way, we know the alignment as lynches always flip, and the vig (or whatever night killer) can pursue any people connected to the flipped player IF they flip mafia. SK obviously won't give us anything and neither will the traitor, but a mafia flip is more telling. If after tonight we see less kills, it's probably safe to assume the mafia partner was taken out.

RE: LURKER CITY: I expected this game to attract those who are usually better tailored to New York style games. Like, talkative and relevant. Here? I'm not seeing it so much. Sorry if that offends anyone, and I don't mean for it to, but there's not a whole lot of relevant input being brought to the table and I find myself sitting back, weeding through commentary, waiting for the big game to fly out of the water so I hook it in.

RE: LYNCH POSSIBLE CONNECTIONS: DK isn't one of them. Now if that connects me to him, lololshit but I don't think we'll gain anything.

Though we will lose DK, and as some of you have said, you don't particularly like his playing style. On the same note, while Surye isn't connecting himself to players, I still view that as scummy

- a distancing act - and the way he's trying to fend me off of him is reading a bit short of taunting me. Emotional, Surye?

So is anyone up for a round of reads on EVERY player? It's a boring task, so I'll do it only if at least a good amount of you will as well.

"Though we will lose DK, and as some of you said, you don't particularly like his playing style."

That statement strongly implies that you view the DK lynch as a policy lynch on a bad town player. I'm not sure how it can be interpreted any other way - though as flailscum, you will probably try.

You are saying the following things in this post: "We should lynch someone with a lot of connections to other players. We should not lynch DK because he doesn't have these connections. Surye doesn't either but is still scummy in spite of this."

Again, you are implying that lack of connections is inherently not scummy, though you contradict it for Surye - you mention Surye as a contrast, not a parallel.


P-edit: ... What? Are those supposed to make sense?

[Amrun]

Just realized Mask was actually voting for Surye at the time.

What a load of IIoA - spouting theory just to look good when your play DIRECTLY conflicts!

And then, 3 minutes later, you vote DeityKabuto, saying "Fuck it, let's have fun."

The more I read those posts with the context that you apparently did not have a townread on DK at the time, the more it feels like a slip.

P-edit: Nice catch, Cobbler.

[Amrun]

When I first read post 365, I was confused because it uses the exact same line of reasoning to imply DK town and Surye scum, so I asked Mask about it - and he says he never implied DK town.

Read the post (quoted above) with my explanations, keeping in mind that he was voting for Surye at the time of the post and 3 minutes later (literally) he said "Fuck it, let's have fun" and voted for DK.

I think he let knowledge of DK's alignment slip there.

[Amrun]

What the FUCK are you talking about?

Are you talking about my notes that I posted under spoiler tag for optional reading? I clearly explained that those were my personal notes as I was going along. When Sathoris died, all questions to Sathors became irrelevant. Hence, when I posted questions to living players in an entirely seperate post, no questions to Sathoris were included. Herp derp.

How does jilynne not reading the thread have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with that?

And I'm a mislynch, duuuurrr. Jily probs is too.

[Amrun]

OKAY GUYS Nocmen is probtown now.

Will lol if team is Mask+Peregrine as I suspect right now.

[Amrun]

No... YOU were saying I would look bad if jily flipped scum, not me. You were attempting to chain lynches, at least one of which would be a mislynch.

What moved jil from null to prob town is YOUR bad attack on her. You being scum would not negate her being scum, but it would make it less likely - and I believe you are scum.

I did look at who died, but somewhere throughout the course of reading 20-odd pages, I forgot Sathoris died - and I wasn't totally ignoring her even when I remembered, since I had no previous read on him from before. When I started this read, Ialready had a townread on CMAR from when I started reading when I considered replacing monk. Since alignments are not flipped upon NK, I NEEDED to have a read on Sathoris.

I see this as another possible slip on the part of Mask; the only person or people that know the alignment of Sathoris is the person or people that killed Sathoris. Looks like Mask knows Sathoris was town.

P-edit: Earworm, I messed up the setup and thought the question was more important than it was, as I already explained.

[Amrun]

When I see what?

Also, I mentioned jily several different times in my re-read, so try again.

And no, I did NOT say you were setting me up to be mislynched. I said you were TRYING to chain mislynches, which I admit is a little bit confusing way of wording it, but that doesn't matter. Basically, you were throwing dirt and hoping it stuck; your "case" was vague enough to push me regardless of jil's flip. I never thought you'd be succesful at this venture, but I did think the attempt was scummy.

Also, it's funny how you didn't post most of day 1 and had sparse posts day 2 until I came out guns blazing against you.

[Amrun]

No, I did post to jily. I asked her questions and have pushed her for content today. Your point here is ridiculous.

You are misinterpreting the bolded vastly, but I didn't word it well so that is okay.

PS you're "now" you've been scum since the first few pages. Hint: in that reads list you frequently mention, you were #2.

I don't understand your weird hints. Are you trying to say I've got a cop guilty on you?

[Amrun]

Earworm claimed hider that hid behind ironhead.

I think Mask and PeregrineV are totes scum.

[Amrun]

You didn't do one on me, jily. Also Quilford replaced out.

If you believe earworm, how can he be null to scum?

P-edit: NOM STOP. JIL IS PROBTOWN. I have played with jilscum and this isn't it, but the earworm/ironhead confliction bugs me.

[Amrun]

I have several things, in my wall of doom. I'll dig them up later, but here are some:

In her earlier posts, she was striking out and disagreeing with more dominant players.

She has provided firm stances on every player.

I detect little possible scum motivation.

Obvscum is pushing for her easy lynch.

[Amrun]

C-Worl already was replaced and she missed the fact that I replaced Quilford.

She is town. Stop with the votes.

[Amrun]

I'm not making a full towncase on someone - I have already made a fairly good one anyway.

Jilynne is town. I have played with jilynne scum twice and read through her completed scum game and played with jilynne town once and skimmed some other games.

She is town.

[Amrun]

I meant she expressed reads, not that the reads themselves were good.

[Amrun]

It's in my readslist.

[Amrun]

Surye, thoughst on Mask?

[Amrun]

Good point.

I will keep it in mind, but I am more convinved of mask and pv.

[Amrun]

That is honestly the dumbest reason to vote that I have ever seen. Have fun with that.

[Amrun]

Unvote; Vote: PeregrineV

Don't care which one goes first.

Peregrine, seriously, thanks for totally ignoring the pages and pages of work that I did (and posted) in order to come to those reads. I like it when my suspects claim scum.

[Amrun]

V/La for an indefinite period of time. My father had a heart attack. I will probably post a little, or maybe even a lot, depending on how much distraction I want, but I may disappear for a couple of days and wanted to make everyone aware.

[Amrun]

V/La for an indefinite period of time. My father had a heart attack. I will probably post a little, or maybe even a lot, depending on how much distraction I want, but I may disappear for a couple of days and wanted to make everyone aware.

[Amrun]

What wpuld the scum motivation be for doing such a thing? Especially when I went through the trouble of showing my work? Also the reads aren't even the same. I have vezok as town, for example.

Seriously dumbest thing I've ever read.

Who is an insane cop now? Don't have time to read carefully.

[Amrun]

Okay guys, mask instead.

Unvote; Vote: Mask

[Amrun]

Vezok is never a paragon of towniness, but his meager attempts to break the game yesterday seemed townish for him.

However, he usually claims d1 and he didn't this time, which makes me uncomfortable, but lynching him for not being anti-town seems a little counterproductive.

[Amrun]

Ironheadn have you checked out vezok's other games?

[Amrun]

Chkflip might actually be a better wagon, since everyone won't join me on mask.

VOTE: Chkflip

[Amrun]

Ironhead: he actially tends to vote hop morre as town.

Earworm: I actually did not copy monk's reads...

Deadline soon. Chkflip wagon gogogo.

[Amrun]

VOTE: vezokpiraka

I do not prefer this lynch, but I don't want NL either.

[Amrun]

L-1, btw.

[Amrun]

Peregrine, you are seriously pissing me off. Like, seriously.

I showed ALL my work - all of it, post by fucking post - and you have the gall to say I copy pasted reads. The reads aren't even the fucking same. You're obviously totally and completely wrong and I'd appreciate if you shut up about it. Even if you were right, it's not indicative of alignment, and you're not even right. I hate how you're undermining the 5+ hours I put into catching up to this game.

Unvote: vezok ; Vote: Chkflip

With cobbler's switch, this wagon is more viable and I prefer it. L-1, I think.

P-edit: why don't you discuss, jil?

[Amrun]

Yes, Surye. Sadly.

[Amrun]

I had Cobblefone as SK, so don't feel I was too far off since he was Mafia Goon.

LOL @ Amrun- http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p3170379

And now I can, in restrospect, say "I told you so", I'd like all the "town" players to explain to me again why my case was bad, yet exactly correct.

@EmpKing- Thanks for modding and letting me replace in!!! Not knowing alignments at death kind of sucked, but it added a dimension to the game I hadn't had before.

No, seriously, your case was fucking horrible and extremely insulting. I happened to be a mafia traitor, but I put a lot of work into this game and I didn't even read my predecessor's reads because they weren't important.

I'm insulted that you STILL think you were right and you can't separate reality from fiction. If you say the sky is blue because little aliens piss blue and it rains on the atmosphere making it appear blue, you're still wrong even though the sky is blue. Those are the basic rules of logic.

[Amrun]

Also, I didn't know the scum team (and it was amusing to watch you idiots base things off of my supposed distancing and shit).

So yeah, suck my dick.

[Amrun]

Also mask you were completely obvscum and I have no idea how you lived until endgame.

[Amrun]

Well, mask, you managed to survive and I was hoping you'd win (obviously). I'm just saying that I personally thouught you were pretty transparent. Not everyone thinks the way I do.

I was in a rotten mood when I sid that, but it wasn't meant to be towards you. Apologies.

[Amrun]

What you DID say was akin to voodoo sacrifice. No one in their right minds wwould just copy their predecessor's reads - and the reads weren't even that similar.

It's fucking tinfoil hat territory, ESPECIALLY when I provided the completete pbpa to show how I came to my reads organically. I didn't know the scumteam and I was aiming to be nk (converted) so they were totally, 100% genuine.

It's like coming home and your dad built you a desk by hand, put hours of effort into it, and you see the leftover timber lying around and then insisting that he didn't make it because it's so nice he had to have bought it at the store.

It's insulting and ridiculous. Everyone else said it too, so fucking quit.