Wizards at the Sorcerers' Den - Endgame

[Zdenek]

Vote Gandalf

RVS-skillz my ass, more like RVS-sheeping-Jester-MoI-skillz.

[Zdenek]

IceyC - Jester-like? How is that supposed to make me want to vote you? I'm assuming you chose a bad word for whatever it is you are.

You always think I'm scum since I played you like a fiddle in TWBB, Icey. It ain't true this time.

No, you had Mastin wager that he'd never post under the name Mastin again if you flipped scum on your side. It's not quite the same, but who cares.

2 pages in and we're already taking this way too seriously.

Trying to keep the game in RVS.

Seriously, SGR is right. Not enough joking here.

UNVOTE x13, VOTE: Pine

Why so Serious?

Agreeing the with the person who wants to keep the game in RVS is worse.

Rolefishing. Big time.

Bad use of a wiki-tell is scummy.

Oh Bunnylovers in the game.

Unvote
Vote Bunnylover

We're going to find out if you're scum in the next few pages.

[Zdenek]

Can't I just already tell you I'm town therefore we don't spend 5 pages determining if I am town or scum?

Okay.

Unvote

Implosion's early play has been bad. He showed up to make a pointless non-scumhunting vote and justified it by saying he's hoping to figure out who is the other head of the Soben hydra. To me this reads like a completely pointless exercise and is obvious coasting through RVS.

Crymeariver's dismissal of the early game is bad, and seems like an excuse to avoid commenting on things, but I also think that his scum-slip could have come from town or scum. Chesskid, what made you think that he is town?

On that note, I think that WrathChild is scummy for not commenting on the scumslip. He posted soon after it was pointed out, and it seems to me like it would have been a natural thing to comment on.

inHim, why the town read on Beefster?

CAN WE PLEASE DO THIS DRAM-MINI STYLE??

What does this mean?

I don't object to people posting town-reads in general, but I don't understand why Soben is bothering to post town reads that are so weak that even though they have a town read on IceyC, they aren't willing to back it up by voting him as he's asked.

Pine reads as scum to me. His early posts are a mess. He calls for the vigging of IceyC, and says that he is the only suspicious person in the game, but he doesn't follow it though with a vote. Then asks for Gandalf to be vigged, and as soon as Gandalf takes issue with it, Pine takes the trouble to retract the vig request. He also didn't vote Gandalf. These sorts of interactions makes me think that he was pretending that the vig request was serious, but was never actually suspicious of these people.

Toying with jumping on the CMAR wagon, but my gut says something's just off about the whole thing.

Do you think CMAR scumslipped?

Only if Icey is something other than Town, which you already stated you think they are. So, which is it? Compliance commensurate with your earlier confidence, or fabricated reads?

PE: Ninja'd slightly, though InHim made an observation instead of an analysis.

Here he is making sure that he get's credit for his posting.

the "No one on my wagon is solidly Town" bit was a red flag.

I feel that this attack on SCR is bad because I don't think that not having strong town reads at this point in the game is a red flag.

LMP is playing aggressively early, which is something that I remember him doing as town.

Vote Pine

[Zdenek]

A few quick comments, and I'll try to make a proper post tomorrow.

Zdenek is not reading the thread.
1) I very, very clearly explained why I didn't want to vote for Icey.
2) I misunderstood Gandalf, and once it was explained, retracted it for that reason.
3) I don't know whether CMAR slipped. That could go either way. If it was a slip, it was well-recovered because I can't tell. That's why I was waffling on joining the wagon. If I were scum, I wouldn't have TOLD you that I was uncertain and waffling.
4) The posts were bare minutes apart, following only a few minutes behind the relevant post by Soben. We actually had the same reaction at the same time, and mine goes into greater analysis, which explains the longer writing time.
5) Look at it again. SCR mentioned a couple "slightly Town" reads at best and a whole lot of scum reads on his wagon. It was blatant, self-serving OMGUS.

Pay attention. All of these things were already-stated and/or obvious.

1. That is hardly my point, but I can kind of understand what you are getting at.

2. I don't care that you retracted your vig request for a reason. It was a bad request to make in the first place.

3. I think that is one of the things scum would do.

4. I don't care.

5. So you're changing what you think is the "red flag?"

Care to explain which scumslip you're referring to?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p3056366

PINE IS OBV MISLYNCH BAIT

Why and what made you change your mind so drastically later (just that he removed the game from his bookmarks)?

B-Mod game where the mod said it was theoretically possible for hydras to have diff roles.

Link please.

I've used my (weak) attack power on IceyCupcake. I encourage everyone who is (wisely) fearful of their waffling between Town-neutral third-party and anti-Town scumminess to do the same.

So you are arguing that we should collectively vig people who we are waffling on rather than people who's play demonstrates that they are anti-town?

[Zdenek]

I've thought about the Pine situation for awhile and I still think that he's scum. I think it is very anti-town for a townie to push his own lynch and I don't trust Pine enough to want to sheep his reads even if I knew they were genuine. On top of that, I don't think that Pine is so divorced from reality that he actually believes that people are going to decide to sheep his reads just because they know he was telling the truth. All of this makes me think that his current move is an act. I've considered the possibility that he is just emotional or stubborn town, and I was starting to lean in this direction as I reread before he started talking about sharing his thoughts and then pushing his own lynch. As far as saying that he isn't all that powerful goes, I can see how it seems townish, but it's not enough to change my read at this point.

The mod said this somewhere in the bowels of the thread, which is 100 pages and going strong. Good luck finding it, because I'm not even going to try.

It was easy (searching for "hydra" in the mods ISO).

I'm don't care for the sorts of details that Amrun is concerning herself with: hydras who's heads have different roles or this IceyCupcake - jester business.

I'm still suspicious of your reactions, so I will keep my vote where it is.

What didn't you like about them?

[Zdenek]

Do you? You avoided saying whether or not you think I did, then you asked your scumread if they think I did. Why?

I think making a mistake like that is null considering the town and scum were reversed in the last game, and people on either side could make the same mistake.

I asked without saying what I thought because giving scum answers to questions is stupid.

Pine's claim makes him likely town.

Unvote

I'm at work now, so I'll put down a placeholder vote because I didn't like his most recent post, but I'll revisit this game later today.

Vote SnakePlissken

[Zdenek]

The Amrun - Beefster argument is making me crazy because they both strike me as scummy. On the one hand I see Beefster pushing one bad argument after another, and on the other hand I see Amrun caring about pointless things, failing to think about things, and her stance on the breaking the game strategy reads as scummy to me. Instead of being direct and game related, Amrun tries to appeal to emotion to get us to not use claiming - kill strategy.

Personally, I have a hard time believing that the game is broken, so I am opposed to the idea that we use it to kill off scummy players before finding one it fails on and then lynching him, but if there are competing wagons it could be used like a day-vig.
------

Also, someone asked me to comment on a Katy slip. I didn't respond because I've never seen past renditions of this game and don't concern myself with flavor for much more than entertainment and still don't really get what the "slip" is supposed to imply.

This reads like a confession that he's not reading the thread, and doesn't really care to figure out what people are saying.

Here is what I haven't liked about SnakePl and why he earned my placeholder vote:
The first thing was his complaining about people posting with caps-locked while otherwise contributing little.

Then there was this post:

Im back, I need to read back properly (Ive skimmed thus far) but Pine's claim for self voting is horrible. I learned my lesson from that, I don't care what situation you are in self voting is scummy whether you are town or not. Im trying to find an up to date vote count as I don't want to move my vote to Pine if he's a L-1 and get into the whole Whoops Hammer debacle. Especiallyas there's plenty of time in this phase to be getting more discussion going. Didn't we learn anything from the last game about speed lynching?

I don't like that it ignored Pine's claim (although looking at this again, he could have missed is, since he was skimming). However, I also don't like the willingness to vote him expressed here, since at best it comes after a reread that that missed the most important event surrounding Pine. Then it closes with pro-town fluff.

What does everyone think of RBT?

Not enough content there to say yet, but I guess that is a bad thing in and of itself.

That's funny, considering you RVS'd after both of the posts you quoted on Gandalf. Or was that a serious vote?

I went to the last page of the thread, looked up, found something obvious to randomly vote on and then went to read the thread from the start.

Theoretically, didn't we just find a way to auto-win this game?
Instead of us actually vote-lynching people, we say "Vote: XXX", if there's a majority, that person is forced to claim his role and be killed.

Breaking the game for the town mindset = town.

I'm leaving my vote where it is.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek: Null. I flip flop on him a little. Overall, he has said very little, and I dislike his "placeholder vote." He has no suspects besides the lurker, really? But I liked the things he saw in Pine that he found scummy - because I found those same things scummy. Pine wasn't scum, so this drops back to null since I dislike some other things he has said.

While she calls me null to her at the end of this, her points against me go from vague (I dislike some of the things he's said) to false (he has no suspects besides the lurker). Shocking that I'd be null to someone who's not reading my posts.

Because she's getting quite a bit of attention, I've played with town RBT twice before, and her play was basically the same as this, so while I'm bothered by her because playing like this it will be hard to get a read on her, I don't find her play overly suspicious.

Current suspects who aren't lurkers: gandalf (too much set-up recently), Amrun, WrathChild, Implosion (has no suspects), Beefster.

In the hopes that we are going with IceyC's vigging plan.

Unvote
Vote Amrun

[Zdenek]

You hadn't expressed those suspects. And when you unvoted Pine, you put a placeholder vote on a lurker, which told me you had no serious supects.

Either way, you're null, and if I had to pick, I'd say town.

Your votes are weak weak weak though.

When you made that post, I'd expressed suspicion of you, beefster and WrathChild already.

I think Snake is a great candidate for scum, but hopefully if he keeps lurking, he gets vigged.

[Zdenek]

I was talking about the time you made the placeholder vote, not now.

I'm reading Amrun's actions as: someone asked her to give an opinion about me, she went to my ISO, found one post to complain about (which wasn't even my most recent post at the time), and then said that I am null to her to avoid confrontation.

Now, she's said that if she had to pick, she would go with town, which is great and all, but it feels like another attempt to avoid confrontation.

his is vaguely a scum slip- it's definitely a stretch. Proceed with caution...
Typically, townies don't read very meticulously because they just need to go with gut reads and the gist of things. Scum tend to be more observant- and they tend to nitpick.

I, for one, have not been reading closely. Take my words with caution. It's not a catch-all rule by any means.

This is terrible because town nit-picks and he tries to write of his not reading the thread closely as a town-tell.

I just read something that makes me think you're town.

Will you say what?

I am starting to doubt a little and have Beefster as possibly bad town. I'm not sure yet.

What exactly was making you doubt him as scum?

[Zdenek]

Zdenek: You have just demonstrated to me that you do not read the thread. When asked for my opinoin of you, I went straight from memory because I do read the thread - amazing, right? I remembered being bothered by your "placeholder" SnakePlissen vote that you later tried to justify, but really liking your thoughts that camme with your Pine vote. One good point + one bad point = null. If 0pine had flipped scum, your good points would have outweighed the bad. I said all of this in less words in my other post. Gut leans town on you. Why are you nitpicking my read on you so? You can't know how I arrived at it, and what is more, it doesn't matter at all. Does my play read like someone who is avoiding confrontation? Not at all. As ABR said, I have been aggressive. Please try to make more sense.

I have already answered in very explicit terms why I think Beefster is scum and what bothers my gut to make me think he might be town in a previous post, so I won't do your reading for you.

The fact that you went from memory is not a good excuse for taking what I would call a convenient stance. Couple that with how you are now backing down from your case on Beefster for what seems to me to be a fairly weak (and at least vague) reason, which you refuse to elaborate on, I think it's fair to say that you are avoiding conflict. I don't really care what ABR said earlier.

WC is still bad: now for regurgitating other people's ideas.

I like Soben's second and third points against Implosion.

[Zdenek]

I explained the difference between my idea and the original one proposed when LMP brought this up earlier.

It's pretty ironic that you'll call me bad for regurgating idea, when that comment towards me itself is purely regurgatated. So much that you didn't even bother to read my response from the FIRST time it was brought up.

I read it, and decided that you were probably making stuff up, since that was certainly the intention of the original plan.

[Zdenek]

This was the plan I was referring to:

We have to start thinking about damaging abilities this phase. If we agree to do them on the lurkers (aka the list below) I'll move off RBT, because although I'm pretty sure she's scum, I agree we're not going to get a pile of info out of the lynch.

Lurkers that need to die:
Riceballtail
SnakePlissken
PeregrineV

All solid choices for our damaging attacks. Make this happen town, we are NOT LOSING TO LURKERS WHEN ALL OF US HAVE A WAY TO HURT THEM.

Also, the idea that people shouldn't point out scummy things that others are doing because they've been pointed out before is ridiculous.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek however, is making softly softly attacks on easy targets, which to me points at scum trying to not get too invested in a mis-lynch.
Beefster/Amrun for example. Vote on lurker Snake for no real reason is bad. Weak reasons on Pine when there were good reasons for voting him.

What makes you think that Amrun is an easier target than Beefster?
What were the good reasons for voting Pine?

I still think that SnakePl is scum. He's posted little and in the post he made before I voted him there was a lot of pro-town fluff, and his current vote is (ironically) on a lurker. He also asks questions that he wouldn't need to if he was reading the thread. If he wasn't on the suggested list of vigging targets, my vote would still be there.

[Zdenek]

Baby Spice:

What makes you think that Amrun is an easier target than Beefster?
What were the good reasons for voting Pine?

I think CMAR is too defensive:

Hey there. Provide your case on me asswipe.

when Peregrine says he's suspicious of him.

Unvote, Vote CMAR
You of all people would know in the last game their was magekillers. RBT was in the last game. Therefore assuming the game has magekiller would be logical from a past player.

1) Of course after he said that I remembered there were magekillers. But there is no way in hell I was thinking about that throughout the first 40 pages of the game. Why the hell would I reference the last game? There is no way he was thinking of that in my opinion.

This is a very awkward response to Bunnylover because there was no reason to bring up the first 40 pages of the game. It was all about what happened since RBT's suggestion of there being a second scumteam.

Seriously?

Yes. Why do you think WC is town.

I'm not buying the RBT scum-slip argument. There were multiple scum groups/SK in past games, so her question doesn't show evidence of inside knowledge.

Mana_Ku, I'm not sure what you were getting at with the rule you quoted, but the same one was in the past game where there was a small scum group as well as the sorcerers.

I still have to read Implosion's Gandallf case.

[Zdenek]

Baby Spice has failed to answer my questions about her attack on me twice now. I am of the opinion that both of her reasons for voting me, that Beefster was an easier target than Amrun and that I voted Pine for bad reasons, were terrible. Considering how quickly she abandoned her case, I think she was making something up as the Beefster wagon fell apart.

Unvote
Vote Baby Spice

I read through Implosion's case on Gandalf, and the best point is that Gandalf misrepresents things and uses them as the bases for attacking people.

As far as the whole alliance thing goes, you are doing it wrong. Are you seriously trying to tell us that you have a strong scum-read on Bunnylover? Having played with her before, I don't think she's done anything out of the ordinary or particularly scummy. Any alliance should have players like Bunnylover in it, so that you can control her vote. If she's scum, she'll be handicapped and if she is town, great.

Here is my damaging list:
Amrun
Baby Spice
Snake

[Zdenek]

Don't believe I said that Amrun was an easier target than Beefster.
Those would be the reasons I gave when I voted him.

What makes you think that Amrun is an easier target than Beefster?
What were the good reasons for voting Pine?

Zdenek however, is making softly softly attacks on easy targets, which to me points at scum trying to not get too invested in a mis-lynch.
Beefster/Amrun for example.

I attacked Amrun out of that pair.

Here were your reasons for voting Pine:

Pine:

I'm thinking Icey has some kind of ability that can only function against people who have voted for them, or something like that.

Vig please.

reasonable assumption.

PE: Icey probably isn't a Wizard with a bunch of powers. They're probably either a weakly-powered, high HP goon supporting the Wizards or a Third Party with unusual goals. Hell, this is Theme Park, they might actually be some form of Jester, counting on our default "lolnojesters" reaction.

Ok, expanding the Icey theory into something that appears slightly more scummy.

I refuse to vote for Icey at this time, on caution that he may have an ability (or even wincon) that triggers if everyone votes for him in one day without lynch, or something crazy like that.

Ok, now expanded again to something alarmist.

Pine's case presentation here is kind of like the fortuneteller who keeps slipping the reading wider until it something clicks. Reasonable, to slightly scummy, to "My god it could cost us the game"

I don't think there's been any new informatuion about Icey's claim, except icey refusing to expand on it and claiming it's pro-town.

Actually, Pine is starting to sound like I did at the end of Stars Aligned when pushing Benmage.

Vote Pine

First of all, I don't think this is a good point. Also, who else has arguably been alarmist over IceyC's claim:

You really want to continue pushing this? I see the possibly of roles such as a cult-recruiter who is only allowed to recuit if he obtains x number of votes a day in the game thus there are indeed risks to voting him while no risks in not doing so.

but not a word from you, so I don't believe that you think this is such a good scum tell as you say it is.

OUT OF NECESSITY, EVERYONE NEEDS TO EITHER BE VOTING IMPLOSION, GANDALF, OR RBT. NOW.

This isn't necessary yet, but of your choices I support RBT the most because it's doubtful that I'll manage to get a read her while she's plays like this.

Here is what Soben has had to say about me:

Zdenek: Null.

Amrum, I can agree with your read on Zdenek

Null: SnakePlussken, inHimshallibe, Zdenek, BunnyLover.

Here are our top 5 scum reads:

1. implosion
2. bunnylover
3. zdenek
4. lmp
5. riceballtail
(alternate: dryfit)

I'll have to consult with R with regards to Zdenek, but don't think he would be a terrible lynch either.

So I end up as one of their preferred lynches for the day with them saying nothing about me. By the way, Bunnylover also moved from null to scum with the only comment them making about her being that they think she might be scum buddies with Implosion.

As far as their argument with Implosion goes. I think Implosion made one good point about Gandalf, the rest varied between fair and poor. Soben has spent along time arguing with Implosion over this. They have essentially ignored the good point that Implosion made, only saying that:

3. I need to re-read into this more and have a discussion with S about it, but it looks like a valid point.

The argument about Pine not posting after he was pressured is pointless because Pine didn't stop posting, but said he was removing the game from his bookmarks, so when Gandalf commented about that he was making a fair point, and Implosion's point that Pine didn't stop posting is reasonable too, but Soben has been focusing on this for awhile. I think that Soben is right about the changing of reads and not releasing information not being a scum tell and that vote hopping is not a scum-tell. However, being wrong is not a scum-tell. I think the best point against Implosion is his accusation of Soben chainsaw defending Gandalf, while having a town-read on Soben. However, this sort of mistake in logic, is something that I have seen townies guilty of in the past, so I'm hesitant to lynch because of it. I'm also not convinced that Implosion is scum pushing a bad case, because my impression is that he believes it.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek however, is making softly softly attacks on easy targets, which to me points at scum trying to not get too invested in a mis-lynch.
Beefster/Amrun for example.

I attacked Amrun out of that pair.

So that would be you calling Amrun an easier target than Beefster, not me.

No, it's not. I never thought that I was attacking weak targets. So that is pure B.S.

It's not that he was alarmist per se, but that he built up from a reasonable thing to an alarmist thing.
That he escalated his rhetoric with nothing from Icey that would have supported such an escalation.

Your reasoning here is garbage because you are trying to argue that Soben didn't build up from a reasonable statement to an alarmist one, which is patently false.

He went from: "Derp! Yeah! I don't have to read and can be lazy! Yeah! Screw actually reading anything carefully!" to a very in depth poster who has detailed theories and reads on different people. This was just over the course of about 4 RL days. It is a huge posting style flip and it bugs me. If we aren't going to lynch him, fine, but I don't like what I'm getting from him.

This is one of the worst reasons I have ever seen someone use to try to push a wagon (for the record, I have seen this argument used by scum in the past). Player plays badly, comes under pressure for it, improves, and scum not wanting to abandon their original case, uses this stupid reason to keep pushing their lynch.

Why does anyone have a town read on WC again?

[Zdenek]

V/LA until Sunday

[Zdenek]

Back and catching up. I've looked through the thread quickly, and will read more carefully soon.

Something that caught my eye as I was reading was how abruptly Zdenek changed his read when Pine claimed. Even as Pine was pushing his own lynch Zdenek believed he was scum, and suddenly changed when Pine claimed. Why is that?

Pine's play was starting to look like frustrated town, so I was having a hard time deciding on him; although, before his claim, I still thought he was scum. The way that he claimed, and in particular the fact that he claimed to have an "interesting, but extremely conditional ability" made me think that he's town. While I can see the usefulness of scum claiming to have an extremely conditional ability, my feeling was that that detail is something that scum wouldn't have bothered including at that time being at L-7 (I think).

1)Zdenek does look like he's planting reasons to vote that person later in case a BW forms, all without 1) Giving much reasoning himself and just following whatever other person says 2) Flip-Flopping a bit too much for my eyes.

Where?

[quote="Babyspice]
I kinda like clear answers to questions. I kinda like seeing things supported by quotes. I don't mind poor thinking if someone at least tries to present it readibly. (Lord knows I do enough poor thinking at times)
Zdenek is doing none of these. not answering questions, or when he does answer them the answers on't seem to relate to the question. This I think is deliberate

Example:

It's not that [Pine] was alarmist per se, but that he built up from a reasonable thing to an alarmist thing.
That he escalated his rhetoric with nothing from Icey that would have supported such an escalation.

Your reasoning here is garbage because you are trying to argue that Soben didn't build up from a reasonable statement to an alarmist one, which is patently false.

Don't see the relevence to Soben. Not a clear answer or not a clear thought. A quote would have been brill.
[/quote]
You were arguing that your rationale for voting for Pine was a good one - that Pine escalated from having reasonable suspicion of IceyC to being alarmist. The relevance to Soben is that they did the same thing:

Iceys win condition could simply be to recieve x amount of votes during the game thus although I don't see him as scum I have no reason to vote him.

I call play that I believe has no scum-motivation whatsoever "Town-tells" which I generally associate with town, at the same time given the setup style I can see possibilties of you being third party/alternate faction with the risks of voting you being severe.

You really want to continue pushing this? I see the possibly of roles such as a cult-recruiter who is only allowed to recuit if he obtains x number of votes a day in the game thus there are indeed risks to voting him while no risks in not doing so.

but you didn't say a word.

Why are we still FOS'ing? Gaggle voted and unvoted successfully.

[Zdenek]

Since we've had the warning that we can't trust night actions (I'm assuming this means something like a redirect spell was used), I am not going to use people's health status as a way to clear them.

I agree with the idea to not lynch people who are dying. Time will probably sort those people out. The only person who is bleeding is Mana_Ku, who we clearly won't be lynching. I am fine with lynching people bruised or better

The fact that Snake immediately pointed out an interpretation of the words from the artifact makes me feel a bit better about him. If I was scum and thought that, I'd strongly consider laying down vote, and hoping that I couldn't use it, just to reduce my vote footprint.

Katy was on everyone's lurker hit targets, but she isn't even bruised.

I don't think there were that many people who wanted her vigged.

If it helps, I can tell you that I checked out the masons and I don't believe there is any gambit going on there.

Well, that was pointless.

inHim's point about Katy's post where she talks about mislynches isn't bad, but I think her defense is completely reasonable.

Bunnylover:

lol. Lynch someone who is healthy? I see some logic in that, but most people who got hurt are by a town role more then likely.
Meaning healthy people can be town too, and more then likely will be town.

Fair warning of advice.
Actions used last night aren't to be trusted.
Thank you and have a pleasant day.

do you see the disconnect here?

I don't have an alignment checking ability. If I did, I wouldn't have wasted it on you. I do have something I could use to check out your claim and wouldn't have been as useful on anyone else, so since I got an extra chance to use an ability (since we can use one per phase), then why not? I didn't think it very likely you were scum, but now I don't have to worry about it.

If you don't have an alignment checking ability, then how can you be sure of their alignment? I take it that you know they are masons, but not that they are sorcerers.

The beefster attacks Peregrine plan is almost sure to fail (or at least create completely wrong impressions) if either of them is scum; especially since after Bunnylover's post, it's safe to assume that there are redirects in play.

I'm out of time now, but I'll be back tomorrow.

[Zdenek]

Your logic on Pine was terribad.

First of all, I disagree with that, considering that I voted Pine fairly early, but that is hardly the point. You said:

1)Zdenek does look like he's planting reasons to vote that person later in case a BW forms, all without 1) Giving much reasoning himself and just following whatever other person says 2) Flip-Flopping a bit too much for my eyes.

which has absolutely nothing to do with my reasons for voting Pine.

Doesn't look like a disconnect to me

@Zdenek: I don't see the disconnect. Can you explain it?

Ae you pretending to be stupid? Bunnylover is using how damaged people are to help determine whether they are scum or town, and saying that we can't trust night actions. If the damage occurred at night, then why should we believe that it hit its intended target?

I agree with IceyC that Peregrine's 1556 is terrible.

WC, could you explain some of your reads?

[Zdenek]

FOS: Snake

Limited access for the next two weeks, if it's too bad, I'll replace out.

[Zdenek]

The Internet where I've been is incredibly spotty(down regularly and slow), but I'll have reliable Internet again starting tomorrow. The deadline is obviously very close, so for today, I'm just going to copy the almost sure town mason, and

VOTE: bunnylover

My activity level will be back to normal tomorrow.

[Zdenek]

That makes five. Four more needed. Anyone still reading this game and not voting Surye is effectively voting no lynch. I don't hold that against SGRaaize since he voted before there was any wagon, but inHim and Zdenek really wasted their votes. In my eyes, Zdenek continues to look bad.

When I voted Surye had only three votes, and I thought it was more likely that people would co-operate with the highly likely town mason. At the time, I was on very limited access, and failed to see just how dire the activity level was.

I mass roleblocked twilight actions. It's not my favorite ability, but we didn't earn any points, and frankly more deaths is all bad for the town.

I'm far from convinced that was a good idea in a game where apparently (I think someone said as much day one), so much is going to be decided based on role interactions.

Gandalf dies.

Okay.

Vote Gandalf

[Zdenek]

I don't think that we can trust the night actions from last night at all, considering that Katy seems to have been both killed, resurrected and removed from the game all at once (notice that on the main page her listing in the dead list has been crossed out like RBT's was). So I won't be using the results of last nights actions to clear or incriminate anyone.

As a result of this, I don't think that Wrathchild's reasons for suspecting Spyrex hold water. Plus, I think it is highly unlike that scum would risk claiming as masons on day one. Similarly, I don't see why we should think that dead Katy confirms the masons.

[Zdenek]

Then there is Surye and the Amished tell, which really sticks out like a sore thumb.

You are referring to this, I guess?

I know that's asking a lot, but I am trying to get to the point of a productive player in this slot

For me it is scummy because LMP was fairly productive, and I think Suyre was just blathering, but I don't see why it should be a standard tell.

I'm hunting someone. I wont say who, beacaue I don't want to warn them, but given fluff, I believe the person I'm hunting is anti-town.

What do you mean by, "given fluff . . ."

Bunnylover seems pretty obviously town, scum wouldn't be so forward about causing the mass redirect, even if for the purpose of looking town. It would be much more to the scum's benefit to keep quiet about it and cause confusion of night actions, investigations, etc. I don't believe town would see this behavior (you even note claiming the redirect specifically) and really believe she were scum for it. I think you are scum who just sees bunny as mislynch bait.

Scum would happily claim to have caused the redirect so that people would think they were town - the benefit of doing that is a lot greater than causing day two confusion about actions, especially when no one is claiming an investigation result.

Unvote
Vote: Vaya

There's been little from the slot on the whole, and from Vaya we have this convenient change of heart based on a gut read from a single post:

No idea why the masons are voting SGR. The guy seems pretty town to me, there are better targets than him right now.

Think I'm having a change of heart about SGR being town. His last post doesn't leave a good impression on me, voting Bunnylover is especially bad.

[Zdenek]

Grab: scroll

With Vaya playing this way, there is no chance that she is town.

The deadline is reached... Its a NL

What?

SGR just keeps proving that he is being silly, and I think him "claiming scum" in the thread is meaningless. I'd have said worse about him, but his vote on Peregrine is pretty well reasoned and in a good place.

Here's what's bugging me. If SGR was scum and he thought they won by no-lynch, that means that of our 15 permanent players (assuming Bowser is temporary as suggested), one successful night kill, puts us at 14, that means there needs to be 7 scum. That seems a bit high doesn't it?

Yes, especially since we almost never seem to be able to trust our actions.

[Zdenek]

WrathChild, why is Vaya not on your list?

[Zdenek]

-Zdenek: I just have a huge gut feeling that Zdenek is scum, but I need to dig into this more. His defense of SGR seemed odd and he is really playing up the possibility of our night actions not being able to be trusted. He also seems very content to just let town lull itself to death at this point as well.

I'm not the only one who has defended SGR.
It is pretty clear that we can't trust the night actions - they were apparently randomized night one, and Katy was probably made a lightening rod night 2.

[Zdenek]

Zdenek, what makes you so sure that I'm scum?

Because your play is not townie at all, and neither was Dry-fit's. It looks like you are completely content to lurk and do absolutely nothing. You picked up the scroll without any discussion, didn't drop when confirmed town asked you to, and your vote on SGR looks incredibly convenient.

[Zdenek]

WrathChild, I still want to know why you think Vaya is town.

I am okay with SGR's plan, and I don't think anyone else should claim undead for Vaya (if RBT is alive, we have confirmed town in SGR, and if not, we have dead scum from her vengeful kill).

[Zdenek]

WrathChild, I still want to know why you think Vaya is town.

I am okay with SGR's plan, and I don't think anyone else should claim undead for Vaya (if RBT is alive, we have confirmed town in SGR, and if not, we have dead scum from her vengeful kill).

And I still want to know why you think I think Vaya is town. Quote please. You won't dig one up because it doesn't exist. Should you continue to misreprent it would make my job of building a strong case on you a lot easier.

Okay, then why is Vaya not on your lynch list.

[Zdenek]

This was your ISO 64

I've narrowed the possible scum down to:

7- Bunnylover
11- SnakePlissken
14- Beefster
16- BabySpice
17- LynchMePls
18- Zdenek
20- inHimshallibe
21- SGRaaize
23- Feysal

Dry-fit's not on the list, and I couldn't find a reason for it, neither he nor Vaya has appeared on your list since (I think).

And I still want to know why you think I think Vaya is town. Quote please. You won't dig one up because it doesn't exist. Should you continue to misreprent it would make my job of building a strong case on you a lot easier.

Presumably he's not on the list because you think he is not possible scum.

[Zdenek]

Now we're getting somewhere Gaggle.

Of those people, Peregrine will die unless I do anything about it. Take him off your list.

I'd like to give Vaya another Day being that I don't like holding replacements accountable for their predecessor's inactivity.

I'd like to take Bowser (CLS) off the list because I want to at least hear what he has to say.

That leaves us with the same list of people that we'd be happy lynching. That makes me feel a bit better about your towness.

That was hard. Do you know you can use the Search by Poster option at the bottom of the page?

That was much later in the game. I want to know why Dry-fit was removed from your list so early.

[Zdenek]

He was about to be replaced.

So if someone is about to be replaced, they aren't "possible scum"?
Bullshit.

[Zdenek]

Bunny and Bowser have the same alignment; aside from that inHim's list is reasonable; although he should be down a couple notches.

Considering how Gandalf picks up points (if we can trust GreyICE), the last thing I want is to end up in a king maker type scenario with him being alive, so he'd be a good lynch. Vaya has also claimed some anti-town ability, but that doesn't seem as pressing a thing to deal with. GreyICE has claimed to be benign and WrathChild helpful.

So if we are lynching an adventurer, Gandalf would probably be the best lynch.

Of the others, Peregrine will die tonight, SGR can die if he fails to confirm himself.

Vote: Gandalf

[Zdenek]

The Adventurers who are posting are ridiculous. WrathChild's attempt to "leash Baby Spice" is stupid (plus Baby Spice is as likely to be scum as any of the non-confirmed players), and GreyICE's fear mongering about it being LYLO is too. It's nowhere near LYLO unless there are a ridiculous number of scum or the Adventurers are planning to side with scum as soon as it suits them). This brings us to: Gandalf's ability is one that we simply can't have around when Adventures + Scum outnumber the town; he has to die today.

[Zdenek]

I would like to hear thoughts on lynching Gandalf, who I think has to die today because of his ability.

Bunnylover, not yet.

[Zdenek]

Someone unvote now.

[Zdenek]

Adventurers, want to win?

Vote Baby Spice with me, and tomorrow scum plus you will outnumber the town, and we'll be able to co-ordinate for a joint win.

Unvote
Vote Baby Spice

[Zdenek]

Isn't that playing against your win-con?

[Zdenek]

Nope.

First, if scum outnumber town, you probably achieve your win condition and the game ends thus freezing our point gains.

Second, trusting scum is inherently unsafe because you guys have an ability to plan outside our sight. The masons do too, but on a much smaller scale.

Third, of course you're going to tell me everything we want to hear.

I would absolutely not lie in this circumstance because I might want to do it again in another game.

We can work together.

[Zdenek]

Did Vaya do something that stops her from voting?

[Zdenek]

Vaya, you're online. Convince your people to side with me. It will be awesome. We'll get to laugh at the helpless town as we kill them off as we desire, and win together!

[Zdenek]

I think that making it possible for town to suicide was too pro-town of a mechanic. It reduced the total number of phases and make it tough for us to get all the kills we needed.

The game was fun. I wish I hadn't been V/LA so often.