Meadow of Sorrow Mafia - Game Over! Town Wins

[dahen]

Hi everybody. I am replacing Marli in this game. I haven't followed from the start, so expect it to take a little time for me to read into this game. I am sure it will be fun from the theme.

[dahen]

Just checking in in all my games to say I'm here. I will re-read each one, but it'll take some time.

[dahen]

Hi!

I'm writing a PBPA from the beginning since I am replacing. I will probably be proved wrong on some hunches when I get to later pages, but I'll let you know my thougts as they evolve:

I was not looking at the thread before the outage, so I don't know the stuff that's missing.

We start with some analysis of possible deaths. Then TSQ sticks his head out and nominates Wuffles(Klebian). I think it's a good way to start a game. He had some motive, but not very strong ones. Strong motives should be kept safe. I think Wuffles defended himself quite well. TSQ claimed Wuffles missed the main point, but I didn't see it that clearly either.

What strook me was STD:s eagerness to jump on TSQ. That was scummy! Then spectrumvoid follows as well. Don't like that either.

Zindaras seems to be an analytical player. It doesn't say much regarding scummyness, but I like it, and so far I agree with him.

Zindara accuses Olio with right, but I think Olio defends in a senseful way.

Mordor could die without me crying. Self-voting is stupid. It is such a thing that might or might not save the indivudal. But it has nothing to do with the individual being town or not.

But STD changes his vote to Mordor. Mordor needs to be taught how to play, but not by STD who was putting pressure on TSQ. Even more scum vibes on STD.

Then we have some attacks on CPE. STD feels less scummy now. I don't know how to interpret STD and TSQ agreeing so quickly on CPE though.

Zindara seems to be seeing a good reason for the above. It works for me.

Then Olio on CPE as well. Weird.

Don't like the way Zindara says you cannot change opinions without major scum tells. STD gains credit from this. But I still think he's a good candidate.

Spectrumvoid thinks Fritzler's question is good, because it lets you tell who are most anti-town and most pro-town. The point of voting and FOSing is to tell who are most anti-town. Cops have a dilemma of pointing out their targets if forced to tell who are most pro-town. Don't like it spectrumvoid. Feels you were just looking for something to say. Scummy!

CPEs defense doesn't tell me much. I don't see him as clearly scum.

STD posts a lot and contributes. I like that.
At this point (page 8) I think Spectrumvoid is the most likely scum, but maybe another target would give more information.

The CPE claim on the other hand seems ok. I think he hinted at a power role when he mentioned not claiming yet earlier.

Finally time to look elsewhere. My candidate spectrumvoid quickly unvotes, but has no other strain to follow. Then she posts again with some metagaming thoughts but nothing substancial.

STD continues his posting and hopping. The hopping is so obvious that I'm starting to cross him from the scum list. He wouldn't need to to it since he isn't saving someone. Of course, WIFOM applies as always.

Suddenly Zindara is very sure of Mordor being town. I believe him. I see no reason to wagon him becuase of this. So back with STD to the scum list for attempting.

Illumina doens't say much. But he thinks Zindara might be mason. Of course he might, but I don't like speculating that in the open. Also Illumina is against going after the claimed cop, which of course is sound reasoning. But why no vote from him? Stating the obvious. No theories. Scummy!

Oh, then finally some reactions from Spectrumvoid. She votes STD here. Hmm. I don't see a distancing voting coming at this point, so I have to leave the Spectrumvoid+STD pair as scums (at least of the same group if there is more, which I think).

Thesp seems eager to get Katy dead. Katy sure hasn't contributed at all.

Illunina still talks about masons, even though CPE has denied a link to Zindara. And still no theories.

Then Katy says she would just sit there and be killed. Way to defend yourself. Such reactions are just plain bad and takes some fun out of the game.

Now Illumina wants people to explain Katy votes. Hmm. That questions doens't seem right, as Thok points out.

Then Katy makes a semi-claim as cop. Why not full claim?
Then the full claim, which STD confirms.

Back to Spectrumvoid as best choice for me.

I completely fail to see why Zindaras is the most scummy at the moment. Olio, you have been rather quiet. Maybe you can tell why Zindara is a better candidate than my Spectrumvoid?

vote Spectrumvoid

[dahen]

Great to see a response with more to come.
You didn't get everyting right in the summary though.

First, my post was not a case against you, it was a re-read and all thoughts as they came and went.

Then, I never really accused you of inactivity. I just accused you of posting "neutral" content which makes me feel you tried to avoid focus.

I clearly wrote that your vote on STD was probably NOT a distancing vote, meaning I would be supripsed if you both were scum. One scum on the other hand felt probable at the time.

Later, STD has confirmed a cop, so obviously he isn't the play. We agree on that. I never said your vote or unvote on STD was scummy.

The neutral content together with the quick following of STD onto TSQ are the reasons for my vote.

[dahen]

Why hasn't anyone commented on my accusation of spectrumvoid (apart from voidie herself)? I prefer her as the lynch candidate and I'd like to know how that makes you feel.

[dahen]

TSQ - hmm, I recognize those words. Even if it wasn't a case, they are the thoughts that lead me to spectrumvoid. And you are still capable of checking her up yourself. She hasn't posted that much.

[dahen]

Olio - it is an analysis and I wrote it as I read through the game without changing a word that I already written. However, I wanted to vote someone in the end, and I didn't think the vote leaders were good candidates. We have a deadline and I like spectrumvoid to be our lynchee. You seem offended by that. Is that so?

[dahen]

olio - This is getting painful. It wasn't a case, but it resulted in me voting SV. I summarized the strongest points against her in my answer to her if that's what you are looking for. I could perhaps read the entire thread once again and only focus on SV, but I don't have time for that and I think it's much more valuable if you can give your views on the points I've already presented first.

I feel it very compelling to switch my vote to Olio, but I realize I am upset at the moment. I'll at least let myself calm down first.

[dahen]

Great to see some good posts.

unvote

I'll review the discussed candidates and come back with opinions.

Olio - I apologize for my strong reactions. I will answer your questions when I have a little more time.

[dahen]

Ok, not much time left. I don't want to see zindaras dead, so I will soon vote TSQ if the voting doesn't change.

mod

: Can we get a prod on Mert? A vote on CPE here can't be serious.

Fritzler: Are you aware that you are voting Katy although you just wrote "I'm not voting her."?

I will take a quick look at the other guys with one vote each and get back.

[dahen]

Olio (The rest of you can probably skip this post):
The reason I got angry was this:

Also, if it wasn't a case, could you please present it then?

I had just completed a long re-read and told you my thoughts and exactly what they lead me to believe. First you seemed to think it was a hidden case against SV, which would have required that I picked SV as target before I wrote that. Then you want me to present a case against her, although I had already in my answer to SV clarified my points against her. Since that wasn't enough for you I interpreted your questions as you wanted me to do another re-read which would only focus on SV in order to build a tighter case against her. I felt that you wanted me to do exactly what you first accused me of doing. It would mean that I would have little time to focus on anything but SV with a dead-line coming up and I don't like that effect.

I asked if you got offended because I wanted to know if you were worried that I was lying in general or if you thought I had misread SV.

[dahen]

Ok, nothing happened and it's getting late (in Sweden).
So

vote TSQ

.

[dahen]

I had a feeling that our teacher might not be the frendliest around, but I'm really confused about all the alignments.

Alignments so far:
Town
Satanic (mafia [1]?, pentagrams)
Criminal (SK?, shots)
Damned (cult/mafia 2?)

But what about the crucifixes? Are they the result of the Damned? It doesn't really fit.
The double investigations (church/police) also tell us that there might be an even more complex setup. The cases where church and police differ are interesting. Any ideas?

[dahen]

The suggestion of a cult in addition to "having a feeling that our teacher might not be the frendliest around" does not ring pro-town to me.

Regarding the cult:
This game is clearly divided in two, since we have church and police findings. It's clear to me that chuch are in contrast to satanics. Police would be in contrast to criminals. Maybe we only have one criminal (SK) or maybe more (2nd mafia). A third group does not fit very well unless it's a cult. And what could be a better name for a cult than "the damned"?

Regarding the rest of your sentence:
What do you mean by doesn't ring pro-town? What was it that didn't ring pro-town in my sentence?

No suspicions from me yet, but they will come before the Christmas food is fully digested.

[dahen]

This setup is really exciting!

I still think a cult is logical, and I agree with Zindaras that STD was probably the best target for a recruiter. I don't think that it's CPE though. I really think he can turn people to ash. Maybe he really is a paladin with ash-turning ability. Or he is just a pyromaniac SK who didn't kill the first night and decided to make his fake claim sound better now that he happened to hit a satanic. However, that would be proven wrong if a townie gets ashed later, so maybe not. Anyway, I'd leave CPE for today.

I think both dahen and Zindaras are suspicious, on the basis of post 358, 359, and 361.

358 and 359 are from Zindie and he doesn't even mention me there. 361 is where I move my vote to TSQ just before the dead-line since I didn't want to see Zindie dead. It's a follow-up to my own

Ok, not much time left. I don't want to see zindaras dead, so I will soon vote TSQ if the voting doesn't change.
...
I will take a quick look at the other guys with one vote each and get back.

Doesn't anyone want to respond to posts 406-7?

Why did you ask this question after less than two days and when only one person apart from you had posted since those posts?

Post 361 has dahen voting TSQ because 'nothing happened.' Hopping on wagon?

Do you really need to ask that question if you read 357 as well (see above)?

Pressure vote... why not. We are stalled.

vote: Bogre

What!? Stalled? This is one of the more information-rich games I've seen. Ok, the activity is low since it's been holidays, but come on. Sure, pressure can be a good tool, but no, we are not stalled.

fos: TS

Klebian doesn't say much, except taking the easy route and voting CPE for not claiming all at once. I'm not sure about CPE, but I don't think Klebian looks very good either. I'll do a re-read on him.
I think Thok's reasoning on CPE is sound and SV's comment is of course a possible scenario, but I wouldn't say probable.

fos: SV

But dahen was suspicious of STD yesterday. He basically went "oh well, STD was cult, told ya so". It's too convenient.

Yes, it would be very convenient. However, after thinking this through, I think the most logical is that STD got recruited this night, meaning he wasn't cult yesterday.

I'll see if I can pair SV and TS in the same scum group or if I have to assume that they are in separate. I would be very suprised if I would be wrong on both of them.[/s]

[dahen]

SV:
It's not scummy to try to get discussion started. However, I felt you were pointing out that it was strange that you didn't get answers. Strange as in basis for accusing.

Yes, I was willing to lynch TSQ, since the choice was between him and Zindaras. Since I thought that Zindaras was town, it was an easy vote for TSQ. Why do you put negative words like "deadlinge as an excuse"? The deadline was my REASON to vote TSQ. If there is no time to start a discussion I will always vote for the 2nd guy if I believe the 1st guy to be more townish.

Are you really suggesting that I should have behaved otherwise? Your posts are filled with negative words. It's like you want to create doubt around me so others will vote me instead of just voting me yourself and get confronted on your weak reasons.

I hope you don't feel offended by my words. I apologize if that is the case. It's sometimes hard to be accurate without sounding offensive.

[dahen]

Welcome Kal!
Your thoughts are welcome.

[dahen]

Prod received. I have made a quick read. I think I need to read more than a few pages to get a better grip. I really don't like our Paladin for several reasons, but I think he might be SK and the person so eagerly voting him could as well be mafia (damned). I will see if this fits with the setup.

[dahen]

Edit: mafia (satanic) was what I meant.

[dahen]

CTD - well I see your point about me. But I won't vote myself. I'll explain and hope you will feel better:

It's true that what I wrote at the first post today doesn't work with my theory about Katy being recruited and thus being innocent. So you are right that it's inconsistent. The reason is simple: I began to think she was recruited at a point after that post. Originally I just remembered her being scummy when I replaced into this game. Obviously I was wrong if the theory about recruitment is correct.

As I said before, I think that this CPE lynching will give us much more information than just CPE:s stats if we don't rush it. At least, I want Thesp's question answered.

[dahen]

Posted in V/LA thread:

Limited acces until Friday 26th. I'm going on a business trip to Germany and Gothenburg.

[dahen]

Why Fritz? Isn't he the worst person to lynch?

FOS: KaleiDoscope

[dahen]

Sure you can see him as scum. I can see anybody but myself as scum. And I really hope you'd tell if you were entirely sure of someone being scum. I assume that people never are entirely sure of anything when searching for scum. I still think that Fritzler is the worst possible lynch, so I'll

FOS Zindaras

as well.

[dahen]

Because our paladin cleared him as not satanic.

[dahen]

Since we are getting the real power roles out in the open, I think I'd like to claim, at least partially, while that part is still confirmable.

Fritz, can you confirm that you got a special addition to your role the night before this? You decide if you want to tell what ability that was. Anyway, it was from me. I can do some other similar funky stuff as well. I'll await your answer, though.

[dahen]

Fritzler - no. If that's the only change you have gotten, then you either didn't get the addition for some reason and someone else changed your win condition, or my ability is seriously whacked, in which case I'm very interested in what it might have done to you.

[dahen]

Fritz - night two I supposedly gave you an item (not a weapon) that would grant you something. Can you confirm or deny this explicitly? Ask the mod if necessary. If the cop-opportunity was the only the only thing you got, could you please try to explain in detail how you got that opportunity, because I want to know if it's connected to my item. I have not targeted STD, though.

[dahen]

oh i got it

it gave me cop immunity?

Yes, that is indeed what I gave you. Or rather immunity for investigation. Since you were already investigated, I think you were a good target for that and you could confirm me. Investigation immunity might not be the most townly ability to give away, but there is a reason that will be appearant later.

[dahen]

When Primate was killed:

The meadow...blood covers it tonight. The earth cries out due to the stain from Primate's defiled body. The carrier of the soul, the vessel of life, the heart was carved out his chest with a tiny, sharp knife and carved into the shape of a pentagram.

They went to drag his corpse to the cemetery...upon touching the consecrated ground, it broke into flames and turned to ash, blown away by the wind into dust.

Are you saying he was targetted by multiple killing groups? I say definately not! There were three kills the first night, not four.

I'd like to hear a little more flavor from Fritzler's role. There must be some.

[dahen]

The reason Primate was turned to ash is because he was a puritan. Puritans are known to try to live a perfect life, putting themselves at the same level as God. Remember what the puritans thought of Jesus when he entered Earth. Jesus tried to tell them that the actions are not everything, that God can forgive etc. God didn't like puritans. Are you surprised Primate turned to ash when he entered sacred ground?

[dahen]

Dahen's claim also has a huge omgwtfbbq rating.

What does this mean?

[dahen]

I don't get.

I'm doing this a bit from memory, but if I'm correct, you've claimed to have done something with the whole Damned Aligned thing, and something with Cop immunity, and whatnot. I don't get it. At all.

Don't worry. You aren't correct.
I claim to have given Fritzler protection from investigations. That's all.
I gave it to for two reasons:
1. So I could see that my ability worked as specified. At least Fritzler says he got it.
2. So I could be confirmed. I know it doesn't say anything about my alignment, but at least you know that I'm no regular scum (or townie).

The reason I gave it to Fritzler of all people is that he was already investigated by CPE and would probably not be targetted again by an investigation.

[dahen]

SV:

Since we are getting the real power roles out in the open, I think I'd like to claim, at least partially, while that part is still confirmable.

Did you miss this or do you want me to be more precise?

[dahen]

Dahen: I was wondering why you decided to claim today, when I don't think you were under suspicion.

What is so hard to get? Fritz was getting votes. I wanted to see for myself (and yourselves) if my ability worked and. And that would be impossible when (if) Fritz was lynched.

There is always a down-side to reveal role information, but since I believe that more powerful roles claimed before this, I felt that it wasn't so bad after all.

Note that this is no full claim from me, and I intend so such thing. As SV said, I'm not (at least wasn't) a supsect. Note that I gave Fritz the option of keeping the effect of my gift a secret.

No-one has yet commented my post regarding Primate's ashing. I feel like there's a lot of posting but lack of reading at the moment. I don't think Fritz is the play today. Feel free to speculate in me being scum with him.

Thesp - a question for you: Since you are a pirate, do you have a feeling of turning up not-completely-innocent on investigations?

[dahen]

I think that everyone who shows up as scum is scum

We know for a fact (by mod) that satanics are mafia-like scum. We don't know for a fact that those who are investigated by church as satanic are satanic. Maybe this is what you intend to say. Otherwise, this sentence doesn't say much, since no-one has shown up as scum.

I would like you to consider the fact that Thesp might show up as a criminal, since it's quite logical that pirates are considered criminals by the police. However, that doesn't mean that he is scum.

I'm actually wondering if this is a game of prejudice. That the church believes some to be satanic just because they are no believers, and that the police believes some to be killers just because they don't always follow the law.

This would of course require some roles to compensate for the confusion.
I want to hear if someone have had similar doubts before I continue this theory.

[dahen]

That goes from the assumption that there is another vig

So you think Fritzler is a vig now?

[dahen]

Prodded. Stopped getting email for this thread. Sorry.

So wait, Dahen is offering cop investigations but if you take them you become damned? Fausty! And evilish!

No, I have nothing to do with the cop investigation/damned thing.
I gave Fritzler immunity from others' investigations. That's all.

Thesp, you're mad. First you push for a Fritz lynch, calling him a liar. Then you say he is OK based on that he wouldn't have a side to help win. Why so sure that it is not a lie too? Then you go for me because you don't understand my role.

Strange that what Dahen offered what he thought was 'investigative immunity', but fritzler received the alternate

Fritz has confirmed that he got what I said I gave him. I don't think I also gave him the cop possibility. I'm not into the damned thing.

Dahen did you offer this thing to anyone else who has died?

No.

Have I missed any questions?

As I've said from the start, I don't like a Fritzler lynch. I'm not very keen on Thok either. Among the active players, I'd say Zindy might be the best choice, but I need to take a look at the less active too.

[dahen]

Edit: I meant Thesp, not Thok.

[dahen]

Now you are starting to make more sense, Thesp.

You are right that it's a stupid ability to use as pro-town. I even said so myself when I asked Fritzler about this. I did it anyway. And it's not because I'm mad. I would like to leave it at that unless we are discussing mass-claiming which might be a little early.

I still have to think about who to vote for.

[dahen]

I agree completely with Blackberry on this one.

I believe Fritzler's claim. Even IF he really is a SK he has done a good job so far of taking out satanics and I would much rather hang a satanic. I'm suspcious of those who prefer a Fritzler lynch since we know very well that a Friztler lynch will NOT lynch a satanic and we know that Fritzler has caused the deaths of two satanics. Unless somebody wants to counter-claim those kills.

[dahen]

Ok, first let my apologize for not being active the previous day. I posted in V/LA when I got back from my unplanned vacation, but at that point this game had already went to night with Zindy lynched.

Thesp murdered pentagram style. Obivously not by criminals since he was one. I would very surprised if this wasn't an act of satanics.

Klebian shot, I guess you did it as you told us, Fritz?

Thesp was a "criminal aligned murderer". There wording suggests that there are criminals who aren't murderers as well. I guess that Thesp wasn't a thief at all, but that there is another guy in the criminal band who is a criminal aligned thief, and that they decided to use that as a safe claim among the criminals.

Toaster might well be that other guy. She takes every chance to point out how boring it is to have no vote. As a townie, I wouldn't think it's boring to have my vote stolen. I can still play the game which is 1) Locate scum 2) Convince the other townies of who are scum. The fact that I would have no vote just means that I have to convince one more fellor townie. But I don't know. Maybe she just ins't very interested, since she obviously don't care to see who are dead?

A criminal reverend and a town minister; is there a possibility that there are overlapping scum groups?

Oh, interesting. I don't think so, but please put forward how you reached that conclusion.

So he doesn't care to use his (Thesp's, [my edit]) ability several times on the same guy. He probably lied about targetting Fritzler the first day my vote was stolen. They're probably scumbuddies.

You realize that Thesp was the one who forced Fritzler to claim, right? Sure, it's possible that they were buddies and that they thought it was important to get Fritzler's role out in the open. But why? When Thesp forced Fritzler to claim, Fritzler almost got lynched.

Friztler - do you have the option of no-killing. I know you are trigger-happy, but techically, can you refuse to kill?

Skruffs - you are not cleared because someone stole your vote, even though I'm not sure if you can steal from yourself. So I'd say you might be a criminal, but you're probably not the thief. This is not an accusation, I'm merely pointing out what's possible. I appreciate that you are a lot more optimistic to participating than TS.

SV: Can you point me to Zindara's case, again. It would be nice to see if it fit with vig or if we should believe that Fritz is a third criminal aligned murderer. Don't forget that it's possible that Thesp murdered Zindaras.

[dahen]

Quite busy with another game, but it seems that there are lots of stuff to clear up here.

Our day and night deaths have the church and the police coming to the same conclusion. I haven't thought of anything yet, but it might be significant.

What do you mean by this?

Skruffs, quit overdefending when you haven't been accused. However, thanks for pointing out that Thesp indeed had two votes. So much for my theory that someone else was the vote stealer. It's weird that he was "Criminal Aligned Murderer with a vote-stealing ability". I wonder if it's in the setup or if he acquired it somehow.

dahen, who did you target last night?

Well, I gave something to Thesp. That's a little harder to prove than what I gave to Fritz.

SV, thanks for your writeup of Zindy (#867), but do you draw any conclusions from it?

Yeah, I think we're going to have to go with Fritzler. Zindara's analysis, as outlined by SV, says it all.

unvote, vote: Fritzler

Well, there is nothing new in that post. You seem to be looking for an easy lynch. Now that you have a vote, why don't you use it with a little more thought than that?

bigAl: Welcome to the game!

dahen who did you offer cop inspections to?

Your question is incorrect. Read my posts. I don't feel like repeating myself all the time.

Im guessing 'riddled with bullets' = multiple killed.

That's interesting. I'll see if that can make me any wiser. I am glad you are looking for theories rather than easy lynches.

NOTE: Save the dragnos was damned for taking the cop investigations

Well, that is if you believe Fritzler's story. It's by no means confirmed. Even though I believe Fritzler, we need to keep an open mind.

Dahen - apparently offers inspections that DAMN people if they receive them

No. You confuse me with someone else.

I think there's something significant about the cross and pentagram. I'm not sure what it is though.

Keep thinking.

no dahen makes people immune to investegations, which is actually pretty suspect.

That's a very good point.
vote: Dahen

Well, that is also not a new point since we discussed it yesterday. Where were you? Are you still looking for easy lynches. Of course giving someone inv. immunity is not very pro-town. Why on earth do you think I voluntarily claims to have done that when I'm not a suspect if you don't think there is a good reason for it?

Making people immune to investigations cannot help the town. It's a role only a baddie could have.

Do you never think longer than this? Look at the circumstances around my claim. If you think I am stupid, then please read up om my other games from the Wiki.

I hope Dahen can explain the flavor of this role, and he better have a damn good explanation.

Yes I do. No, I see no point in explaining it to you at this point.

i got two things the same night, i wasn't sure which one dahen was claiming to be responsible for

I hope you are not still confused.

bigAl: Nice table and some good conclusions. But see Skruffs comment #898 later.

I'm not 100% sure what to do about Fritzler, I want to hear Dahen, BigAl's and TS's opinion on him...

Well, I think he tells the truth about the investigation offering and damning. And I know he tells the truth about receiving stuff from me. I am not sure that he is town, but I prefer hunting Satanics/Criminals rather than a possible SK or Vig. I wouldn't call him scum based on his role name. I don't think scums get these types of role names while the rest of us don't. But you could ask what Richard Nixon is doing in the mines.

After rereading stuff I can buy Dahen's claim... I didn't realize he said he could kill people if they accepted.

What are you talking about?

BigAl. My role name is town aligned pauper.

Poor you.

Strengthens my reasons to disbelieve BigAl.

What? Why?

*shares some bread with TS* Sad I'm poor too. Sad

Is this a claim?

blackberry - You make a Very good point... I hadn't considered that.

What point are you referring to?

So explain this? Thesp was not damned so they were not 'covering up' after a recruit - it seems a lot more likely that Dahen is lying. Then again, maybe Thesp was triple gambitting, hoping to say STD wasn't really damned at all to get a mislynch on Dahen.

Can you please connect the latter part of your second sentence "it seems a lot more likely that Dahen is lying" with the rest? You see, I have nothing to with damning at all. Nobody has ever said that. Why is this so hard to get?

Dahen - What exactly is this 'item' that you gave Fritz? Not what it does, but what Is it?

A very interesting question that I'm surprised no-one has asked before. I prefer not revealing too much of my role. If you will be able to accuse me or clear me depending on my answer I will gladly tell you. Otherwise, I prefer to keep that information for myself (and maybe Fritzler if he got to know what he got).

SV: What is the strongest reason you see that Fritzler is not what he claims to be?

Fritz is definitely scum - a vig would never kill a proven cop.

How could I miss this?
Fritz: Why on earth did you kill HurriKaty?

FOSWITV Fritzler

Dahen just strikes me funny, particulaarly because of how they cozied up to primate and the cult theory - especially explaining that primate turned to ash because he was uberreligious...

Finally a response to my theory. Too bad you didn't like it.

Maybe dahen thought that it offered investigative immunity because the person he targeted the night before received that instead?

Now you have failed your homework. I asked Fritzler to tell us the result of what I gave him. I then confirmed it. How would he know what/if I gave something to someone else the night before?

This is why I'm a little weirded out that nobody has said anything about being offered items.

How many items do you think there is in circulation?

bigAl: Why do you claim your role name at this point?

So who's the last scum?

Do you really think there is only one scum left besides Fritzler?

blackberry - your third point is in reference to a point that was already made. Fritzler *is* scum - big al was misreading data.

You are right about this, but why not comment the rest of Blackberry's post?
Point B is quite heavy.

I am seriously thinking that the remaining scum is dahen (because of the roleclaim) and Blackberry. Blackberry's behaving like he's completely lost his mind.

Too bad your claim seems OK. You really aren't contributing much.

Fritzler's not going to survive this game. Maybe he could kill for the town tonight.

Finally. Although this point has already been debated a few pages away.

Skruffs: You ask SV to claim. Do you want a mass-claim at this point or are you just curious?

Why has/hasn't Dahen targetted anyone else with their ability?

I have been giving items to Fritzler and Thesp.

SV: Interesting claim. Do you have any unanswered questions for me?

Could the satanics be a cult group then? Both people who changed alignment were satanic.

I don't think so. Our mod said that satanics was a fancy name for mafia.

I think killing me is really stupid. I also think asking a full claim of me is stupid too.

I am going to bed now, but I will follow this game better from now on. I'll see if I can find someone to be especially suspicious of.

[dahen]

That does it.
vote: Blackberry
Let's hear his claim.

I'm not sure where I have Blackberry. He has supported me throughout the game. I always get a little bit suspicious of that. However, you need to think about your tactics, TS. It's not a good idea to aks people to claim as soon as you suspect them. In many games that would mean everybody claiming day one. There are situations where a mass-claim is right, but I don't get the feeling that you think it's such a situation. You seem more interested and perhaps curious for your own sake than for the strategic sake of this town. This goes along with you losing interest when you got your vote stolen.

I'm going to read up on some other games of yours to see if this is how you always play or if you are trying to look like a careless townie.
Do you have any games in particular that you want me to study? Links would be appreciated.

[dahen]

When you say that your role blocks investigation, does that incude the investigations done by the church and the police at the end of the day?

Well, you answered it yourself. But I don't know much more than that. I gave Fritzler an item which would give him investigation immunity. However, the effect wouldn't take place the night I gave it to him. Which means that your reasoning regarding Thesp isn't necessarily correct.

Dahen - you should definitely give your item to someone tonight

Don't worry.

Mod

: Can we get a vote-count?

[dahen]

ill kill whoever you guys want me too...

This isn't very Fritzler-like, is it?
Anyway, on the chance that you'll turn up vig (or don't get lynched), who would you want to see dead?

[dahen]

Not happening much here. I'd like an answer from Fritz before the hammer. I don't care very much how you interpret that for my part.

[dahen]

You don't seem very interested in town winning this game.
Even though it looks bad for you as individual, I would still expect you to give advice that can be valuable after your role has been revealed. Unless your role is scum.

vote Fritzler

I believe that's a lynch.
Sleep tight.

[dahen]

SV, why didn't you do it then?

[dahen]

And frankly, discussion of night choices are probably not a good idea, since your target will probably wind up dead. That is if scum would be nice enough to spare your life.

[dahen]

fritz - who do you think is the last satanic?

Well, that's kind of my question in post #960, isn't it? Go ahead and read his answer.

You think it's dahen?

You are free to ask, but why do you think he would think it's me? And how do you know it's exactly one satanic left?

[dahen]

Good morning.

I want to start with stating that a living player has received an item from me this night. This can of course be confirmed if necessary, but I think it would be best not to at this moment. Call it scummy if you like.

There are way too many crimials around here. It's obvious that not all crimials can kill. I assume all satanics can kill and that there is one more satanic left. If there are criminals left they probably can't kill.

The lack of kills by Thesp while he was alive is interesting, too.

SV, do you have any news for us?

[dahen]

Skruffs: No, I have no such restrictions.

I might have targetted anyone of you and I would kindly ask you all to check once more for any such indication.

This said, I am still of the opinion that we should discuss each others scummyness without this information out in the open, since scum would obviously benefit from knowing too much. I have no problem with sharing full information later today.

[dahen]

Skruffs: Since you don't want it to be a secret that I gave you an item tonight, I will answer as much as I think is right.

No, I don't give the same item every night. You have not gotten the same item as Fritzler got. I promised I would say why I gave such a bad item to Fritz, the reason was so I could later give a better item. You got it. No more details now.

I don't like the fact that we started the day with this, since Skruffs isn't any more confirmed just because I gave him an item, although he might think I'm at least a little bit more townish this way.

I don't have much time now since it's my birthday today, but I'll say that I am going to prepare a case against BB when I get the time. Maybe someone can help me out and do it for me?

[dahen]

I don't think that we are at LyLo, but let's assume the worst. Only satanics has killed lately, so obviously we have have one satanic left. The worst is that we have two satanics left, but we theoretically could have one satanic and one criminal left. Criminals have had different abilities and not all have seem to be killers. Of course we could have any amount of non-killer criminals left, but given the number of killed criminals so I think even one is unlikely.

My point is, as Skruffs seems to think, that we shouldn't rush into anything. TS's vote is bad enough. Please unvote. Preview Edit: Ok, already done. Thanks.

Skruffs - Why do you ask me for details?
1. Becuase you are curious and don't care what information scum will get
2. Because you are not sure whether to believe I'm town and want this to confirm my towniness.
3. Becuase you think that my answer will help you determine who is scum in a way you don't think I can do myself?
4. Because you are scum and want to know if it's worth killing me.

Regarding BB's refusal to claim, I'm not sure where I stand. Claims have a tendency to govern all the following discussion, and I really think we should take a look at things like voting patterns throughout the game.

[dahen]

SV: Thanks for the voting records. I'll look at all votes, not just lynching votes when I get a little more time.

And to your question:

In this game, the term "Satanic" will be defined as a fancy way of saying "Mafia Band Worshipping Or Possibly From Hell Itself." There was some minor confusion before and I neglected to clear that up before.

[dahen]

BB: You are quiet today.

I'm confident scum is either Skruffs or TS, I need to reread the stuff though and look at how they intereacted with other players.

How's it going with your re-read?

[dahen]

BB: I am pro-town and I care about winning within the rules setup by the mod. I want to figure out whether you are scum or not. A claim will help.

Answer right now: Are you Vanilla, Role Blocker or something else?

[dahen]

Why do you keep referring to SV and TS as "he"? It isn't that hard to read the gender sign.

I agree that TS has been acting scummy. I've compared her play to other games. Normally it seems like she contributes, but in this game she hasn't contributed at all (with my interpretation). Quite the opposite with votes on claimed cops and dead guys and lack of interest when lacking vote.

I am actually leaning towards a TS lynch today and a BB lynch tomorrow, since I don't think BB+Skruffs is scum, I don't think BB+TS is scum and from the latest post (which seems genuine) I don't think it's BB+SV either.

So if BB is scum, I think he is alone. And as I said earlier, it's more important to lynch someone that might be in a scum pairing. I can see both TS+Skruffs and TS+SV as possible.

Comments?

[dahen]

From a quick-lynch point of view, SV+Skruffs as scum could have won after TS's vote on BB. This means that all possible scum pairs involve TS, at least the way I see it.

[dahen]

SV and Skruffs:
I started writing a long answer to TS trying to explain everything again, but I don't think she'll get it (or pretend to get it). Too much of her post was wrong. I hope you can see it.

Do you agree with me that BB is probably alone or do you think, as TS, that I might be scum with him?

If you agree with me, then let's lynch TS and we'll probably win either way. If you don't agree with me, I guess we'll lynch BB, which probably will bring us a win or lose directly.

Please don't do anything hasty.

[dahen]

Note to all my games:
Sorry for my inactivity during Easter. I will be unavailable for a maximum of 48 more hours. Then I'll promise to catch up.

[dahen]

Oh, this was unexpected.

It's a stiff, dessicated and lifeless description, unlike the rest of us, that have role flavors that fit the theme of "meadow of sorrow"

TS, you are wrong as always this game. Fritzler's SK role didn't fit at all with the theme, although I would expect something more than just survivor. However, I don't care much. I won't lynch BB today. I've already told you so and the reason for it.

BB, please vote for scum as Skruffs says. The action tomorrow (if there will be one) naturally depend on the alignment of the lynchee and the person night-killed.

vote TS

[dahen]

unvote

[dahen]

I think you were stalling.
You wanted to have your scumbuddy around so that you both jeopardize the survival of a townie.

Please explain this.

I also really don't like the way dahen rushed to vote for TS.

The reason for the vote was because I would be online all day and I would see whether Skruffs or BB voted first and see if I could draw any conlusions from it. My intent was to unvote as soon as there was one more vote on TS to try to detect a speed lynch. Too bad BB was first with his vote. We already know where he stands.

Not that it's very dangerous at this point, but you voted quite early yourself, SV, and you are keeping your vote even though you said you needed to reevaluate.

Then you ask BB to "please vote for scum as Skruffs says" - haha. You wouldn't say that if you weren't BB's scumbuddy. Know why? It's because if you were both town, neither of you would know who the scum is... so asking BB to "please vote for scum as Skruffs says" is the kind of semantic slip that only scum would make.

I'll try to be gentle with you this time.
So if we are both town, we don't know for sure who scum is.
On the other hand, if we would both be scum, we would know very well that we were scum and would probably not want a vote on scum, since that would be us.

As town you sometimes call people scum even though you are not sure (I believe that's what you try to convince us that you are doing). As scum, you naturally try to behave as a townie. Both townies and scums can therefore write what I did consiously. However, if you don't think I wrote it concsiously but as a slip, do you really think it's more likely to be a scum-slip than a townie-slip?

[dahen]

I just saw dahen's post. For the same reasoning as yours, incidentally. I've been online, and I'll be online

Huh? I placed my vote to try to get another vote from someone and try to detect a quick-lynch. This is only possible if I am online and fast with my unvote.
You cannot possibly have your vote on BB for the same reason since another vote on BB ends the day no matter how fast you are with an unvote. If you want discussion and are afraid that Skruffs will place his vote in his next post, then you have no excuse in the world for not unvoting. Unless you would like Skruffs to hammer and then blaming him tomorrow in the same way that you blamed me yesterday for hammering.

[dahen]

I'm glad to see that the discussion is more nuanced now.
As you know I'm looking for pairings. Let's list all possible 10 pairings:

BB+dahen
BB+Skruffs
BB+SV
BB+TS
dahen+Skruffs
dahen+SV
dahen+TS
Skruffs+SV
Skruffs+TS
SV+TS

I think we can rule out all pairs that could have won by quick-lynching (dahen+Skruffs,dahen+SV,dahen+TS,Skruffs+SV,Skruffs+TS)

Pairs left:
BB+dahen
BB+Skruffs
BB+SV
BB+TS
SV+TS

Since BB has had two votes on him all day, he can be scum with anyone. The only pair that doesn't involve BB is SV+TS, since with any other pair, the other scum would probably have voted BB by now.

I'll continue in my next post.

[dahen]

Skruffs, do you agree with my simple reasoning above?

I don't really like how Dahen led BB to vote for TS, though, so I'm going to vote for SV.

This is strange, since if I am scum, then I really must be scum with BB and I wouldn't care if TS or SV would be lynched. If I would be scum with SV then I would have voted BB ages ago, don't you think.

Also, I never told BB to vote for TS. I told him to vote for scum as you said. I did this on purpose to see how he would interpret it.

[dahen]

TS. I have never ever been so emotional in a mafia game ever. You just keep on being wrong and I don't know if you're doing it on purpuse. I have never claimed to have given BB an item. Why? Becuase I haven't given BB an item. Please take your time to actually read this game through. Or just the last day or two.

[dahen]

I think you make sense Skruffs.
If you are scum then you can really only be scum with BB, and if you are, then I don't think you would put this much energy into getting SV lynched instead of TS unless you know that this is a mislynch which would require you to be the only scum left. Even then I can't see why you would do such a thing. You are pretty much cleared from my point of view.

Of the possible pairs I wrote, there are only three left as I see it:
BB+SV
BB+TS
SV+TS
And I do agree that BB+TS is the most unlikely of these, making SV the most logical lynch.

[dahen]

SV and TS both screams to know what the item does.
Is it
A) of general curiosity and desire to be in control
B) for the purpose of clearing me as town
C) for the purpose of figuring out who is scum.
D) because they are scum and want the information

I don't care at all for A.
I would care for B if I felt the need for it, but I don't see this day's lynch is concerning me. And since Skruffs+dahen as scum would have won ages ago, you might want to listen to him clearing me. Even if you don't believe him (thinking he is scum or a decieved townie) you will not have a reason to lynch me today.
For the purpose of C, it will not help you today.

SV and TS should know this by now. I think they are in category A or D.

If we lynch SV today and myself or Skruffs is gone tomorrow (the most likely choices) we will get to an endgame with:
TS
BB
dahen/Skruffs

In a situation like that I will probably be voting BB. That means that if TS is alone as scum, she would win and I would hate myself for very long for letting it happen.

And if we lynch TS today I will probably vote BB tomorrow as well, meaning SV would win as sole scum.

This means that if BB is sole scum, we win.
If SV+TS is scum we win.
If SV or TS is alone scum we either win today or lose tomorrow.

If Skruffs is alone scum then we probably lose no matter what we do.

I have already told you that I won't support a lynch of BB today because I can't see him in a pair and a possible pair must have the priority today.

I will be voting TS or SV. Skruffs has already made a case for preferring SV since she could also be in a SV+BB pair. However, since we probably must take out BB tomorrow, we must also consider the relative possiblities of TS or SV being alone scums. I'll take a look at that.

And Skruffs, nice quote of SV there after she stating that she thought Zindaras was scummy. SV, we are missing an answer from you on the subject.

[dahen]

I'd rather lynch BB today, and SV tomorrow. No? What would be wrong with that. I'd rather eliminate the biggest scum first. If BB is scum, and the game continues after that, I will be delighted to vote for SV.

Interesting, but how?
The primary basis for voting SV is the possiblity of you and SV being scum together, something you of course will never admit. We have discussed the possibility of SV+BB being scum as well, but naturally with that grouping BB will be just as good a lynch. I could try to make you a case where SV is the only scum (and I will for another purpose), but from YOUR point of view it would still be better to lynch BB since you believe he might be scum with me. Luckily your vote for SV isn't needed.

[dahen]

>_>

What is this supposed to mean? In what state is this game?

[dahen]

SV, I would expect nothing but Satan herself.
I was Town. I still can't understand Skruff's BB vote, but I'll live with it. This is however the most emotional game I've been in. I was so angry at times, mostly at TS *wink*. I'm over it now, though.

The setup will be very interesting as well as the night choices. I gave totems to Fritzler, Thesp and Skruffs. The totems had no effect on me if I kept them (at least, so said the mod).

[dahen]

Skruffs: no. I targetted him the night he died.

TS: Well, because I felt you were generally unhelpful at the start, voted a claimed cop, gave up on discussion because of the lost vote, confused me with others, forgot what I had claimed and not claimed and never seemed to understand my points. It could just as well be me that explained badly, but I was trying so hard and I felt it didn't matter what I said. No hard feelings though. I apologize if I was rude towards you.

[dahen]

I loved the game!
It was a great setup. Too bad the Devil did play a very small part and that SV:s ability consistently kept town in the dark with the reveals.
I'm glad I supported and gave my totems to Fritzler, Thesp and Skruffs. Finally a game where I made some good calls

And thanks Skruffs for understanding enough of my role without the need for the detailed claiming that SV and others were looking for. However, you were never actually protected by the totem, since SV chose to kill me instead of you. BigAl was town and killed by BB.

The debate over killing SV or BB first was also fun, since they were both scum