MUNSCM - Abandoned

[Flying Dutchman]

Yeah,

Vote: In favour

[Flying Dutchman]

OK, I can talk normally now

Good for a change.

The last 2 resolutions failed, and I think we DO need to SOMETHING.....

I think we need to send the inspectors somewhere randomly, and let another random country get the results. Tomorrow the team should be sent to the result-receiving country, and another random country should get the results, if you get what I mean. This gives us the best chance of discovering something evil.

Also I want the MABM deployed in a country randomly selected by the chair,

but not revealed to the countries untill the next day

. This will give us a chance, even though it's a small one, to survive the night with all of us.

I think wasting a country at this moment is useless, so I want to get a resolution not using our bombs today.

I will submit 1 big resolution for all these things.

[Flying Dutchman]

You're all forgetting one thing: If we investigate an innocent veto power, and the MABM are deployed somewhere else, the investigated country is nuked that night, and we have one innocent veto country less. Oh yes, if we continue to do this, we probably end up with 2 veto powers alive, and one of them is likely to be scum!!!! I don't think finding 1 of the three evil members is worth losing all the veto countries.

But I've got a new idea (Unless you find a flaw I think i'll put it in my resolution): The investigated and result getting countries are known on the day, and the MABM will be placed randomly in one of these countries! The evil ones can try killing off one of them to avoid a confirmed innocent, but then they'll have a 50% chance of failing!

[Flying Dutchman]

Of course this wouldn't make it impossible for the axis to have 2 or even 3 or 4 members in that position, as we could simply name all of them in one resolution. Something like:

4. If any member nation with the power of veto votes against a resolution or ammendment it fails, UNLESS that resolution or ammendment explcitly names that nation and only that nation.

If more than 1 player is named in a resolution, no-one loses their veto right.

[Flying Dutchman]

Don't post any maths, i'm working on it, posting soon!!!

(Mathcam is incorrect too, I think!)

[Flying Dutchman]

A brief note about statistics. If we select a random nation with veto power to investigate another nation with veto power, the odds are as follows:

7/24, Innocent finds innocent
1/6, Innocent finds guilty
1/6, Guilty finds innocent

I don't know how you get your statistics, but IMHO:
(Assuming 5 Veto Powers, one evil)

T = random Town
M = Mafia
R = Receiver Report
I = Investigated

Receiver Report, Investigated, Mafia Kill
M, T, I: 5%
M, T, T: 15%
T, T, I: 15%
T, T, R: 15%
T, T, T: 30%
T, M, R: 5%
T, M, T: 15%

So we have:
15% chance of succesfully locating Mafia this way, and that's what we realy need.

30% chance of succesfully finding a confirmed innocent this way
15% chance the Mafia gets the report, and confirms they found an innocent (If they say they found Mafia, we will lynch Town, but he's dead next day, and it's too early in the game to see that happening)

So we have

60%

chance we have a good result tomorrow!

20% chance the receiver won't live long enought to tell us the result of the investigation.
20% chance Town is found, but the confirmed innocent gets killed. This won't say us anything about the alignment of the receiver of the report, because everyone will say they found an innocent.

OK, next we put the MABM in:
(I won't put all the maths here from now on, I just give the chance of getting a good result):
Placing the MABM in a random Veto Power:

68% chance

Placing the MABM in either the receiving or the investigated Country:

80% chance

NOTE: A good result here is when both the Investigator and the Investigated survive the night.

[Flying Dutchman]

You know, statistics are all nice and all, but they're a smokescreen. They don't provide any real, helpful information - they just possibilities. Well, like, we already know all the possibilities, so big whoop. They present themselves as helpful information when they don't have any factual basis to them. So all three of you gain hearty FOS'es from me.

Well, if some idea's look good, I prefer to know how the odds are on each one, and now I know what I want tonight with the MABM and Inspections team.

The only problem is the nuking today...... We can't force roleclaims with threatening to lynch, so it would realy become a random target. This is not likely to do us much good.

On the other hand, we're probably tomorrow in the same situation as today, and being sitting ducks untill we find someone guilty is probably not the best way to play this.........

[Flying Dutchman]

My point exactly. If we send the MABM to the country we investigate then the only event in which we don't get evidence is if the country receiving the report gets nuked. Even if an axis member receives the report we still get to confirm an innocent.

We also don't get it if the country receiving the report is scum. As we're not informed who that country is they can just keep the results to themselves.
That's why I think we should place the MABM in the country that's going to receive the report.

If a scum country gets the report, they HAVE to reveal their innocent, otherwise they are revealed as scum!!!

It doesn't matter where the MABM is placed. In one case scum gets the MABM if they're investigated, in the other if they receive the report. It just doesn't matter!!!

[Flying Dutchman]

China submit a

motion to ammend the Agenda

, to put

MUNSCM 006: The China Plan

to the top of the Agenda.

This delegate submits the motion because China considers his motion to include the best course of action, as discussed during the causus. Also should be noted that discussing 1 resolution with all the important topics in it can spare a considerable amount of time.

[Flying Dutchman]

4. NON-TRIVIAL points of order, in which the motioner should speak in favour and ONE member nation should speak opposed to are:
- motions to ammend the Agenda (the manner in which must be specified)

1 person should speak against my motion, and then we should vote.

If Mathcam's post exists, the answer is Yes.

[Flying Dutchman]

China wishes to be added to the speakers list

[Flying Dutchman]

Vote: In favour

of the motion.

Note that if we don't do this, we need to discuss (likely) 3 other motions before we can end the day!!!

[Flying Dutchman]

The delegate from China votes

in favor

of the motion.

[Flying Dutchman]

China votes

In Favour

[Flying Dutchman]

Vote: Against

the motion. Although I believe the Agenda should be ammended, I have submitted a resolution, and I don't want it to be removed from the Agenda!!!

[Flying Dutchman]

I wish to remind the Honorable Delegate of the fact I'm not the speaker, and of the fact he does not know the contents of my resolution, as they were changed after the passing of this last resolution.

[Flying Dutchman]

4. NON-TRIVIAL points of order, in which the motioner should speak in favour and ONE member nation should speak opposed to are:
- motions to ammend the Agenda (the manner in which must be specified)

Although I believe the Agenda should be ammended, I have submitted a resolution, and I don't want it to be removed from the Agenda!!!

It sure sounds like you were speaking against the motion to amend the agenda to me. Nonetheless, I suppose my question

was

answered.

Cam

I spoke against your motion indeed, but I don't think that makes me the speaker

[Flying Dutchman]

China votes

against

the motion, and is discontent with the way Germany tries to delete his resolution.

[Flying Dutchman]

I second this.

I agree Romania is acting suspiciously, and I also want to note that we realy should nuke someone, and not wait as sitting ducks till WE are nuked!!!

[Flying Dutchman]

China wishes to be added to the speaker's list as well, if his delegate is not the current speaker because he seconded the resolution.

[Flying Dutchman]

Point of Interest directed at the speaker:

Just know, Romania will see you all in hell.

Why does this honorable delegate imply he will be in hell too?

[Flying Dutchman]

The delegate from China

Votes: Against

the motion.

[Flying Dutchman]

Should we vote on the Ammendment?

[Flying Dutchman]

China votes

in favor

of the ammendment.

[Flying Dutchman]

Time for a

Motion to Close Debate

China considers the discussion over, as everything that needs to be said is said, en nothing new is added.

[Flying Dutchman]

China votes

in Favor

[Flying Dutchman]

Vote: In favor

[Flying Dutchman]

I believe that does it. Let's hear The China Plan.

I withdrew my resolution, as I have nothing new to add, because the 3 major points (nuking, investigating, MABM), are solved.

[Flying Dutchman]

Point of information directed at the speaker:

Do you realise that, with the current voting procedures, 2 pro-town veto countries can avoid the nuking of any pro-town country, but that you are removing this safety with your resolution?

[Flying Dutchman]

China votes

in favor

of the ammendment.

[Flying Dutchman]

Vote: In favor

[Flying Dutchman]

Vote: In favor

[Flying Dutchman]

Wait, I thought that was about going to vote about the resolution..........

Unvote: In favor
Vote: Against

(Yes, I veto this resolution!)

[Flying Dutchman]

Delegates,

This resolution simply destroys the biggest power of the town: The power to avoid a lynch by using your veto! In the current situation, the veto-powers can make sure the mafia can't succesfuly force a lynch, as long as at least 2 of them are still around! Does no-one realise how reckless it is to give this power away so easily!? You are giving scum the oportunity to lynch at will as soon as they've realised a majority!

Thank you.

(Writing this brings me to another point: Out of this evolves logically there cannot be 2 evil veto-powers, as they could avoid any scum lynch with 2 veto options!)

[Flying Dutchman]

You can't abstain on motions, but you can't veto them either.

Vote: Against

[Flying Dutchman]

China votes

in favour

of the motion.

[Flying Dutchman]

I wonder why China has not requested addition to the Speakers' List?

I agree some people will want to question me..........

Requests to be added to the speaker's list

[Flying Dutchman]

POI to the speaker:

As the delegate from Angola pointed out, it is impossible for an evil veto nation to veto the nuking of another member of the Axis of Evil without getting himself in the spotlights.

However, for a country who wishes the best for the town it's a powerful tool to avoid mass-destruction of innocents, as 2 veto-powers can avoid any nuke planned.

Why do you still wish to remove this advantage of the good people here?

[Flying Dutchman]

POI to the speaker:

Why do the USA fail to see that the veto-right is one of the few pro's of our situation? Either 0 or 1 veto-nations have veto powers, which means 4 or 5 of them will try to use it to the best interest of the town.

I can understand some of the non-veto nations are unhappy with their current situation, but giving everyone veto power will result in an inevitable draw, and as I've tried to point out removing all veto-powers only hampers the people here who mean the best for us all.

Why do you still wish to carry on with this very bad resolution?

[Flying Dutchman]

POI directed at the speaker:

While this indeed works as long as the town has a majority, don't you realise the trouble it will give when a significant portion of the town is slaughtered?

[Flying Dutchman]

POI directed at the speaker:

Even if there are 2 town and 3 scum left, the town still has a draw if both of them are veto powers: They simply veto any resolution proposed. As night cannot fall before a resolution about the nuking is accepted, the town has a draw. Why do you think we will all fall to night kills in this situation?

[Flying Dutchman]

Delegate from the United Kingdom, in the situation with 3 scum and two town (both with veto power), the axis would probably not be successful in passing the first resolution, as it could be vetoed by the other town member. However, it should be strongly noted here that

no game will end in a draw because the rules won't allow night to fall

. Specifically, the council may close debate on a session, going to night, at any time after all reasonable attempts have been made to address the issue of nuclear attacks.

Intepretation: The rules state that the council must pass a resolution authorizing or prohibiting an attack. If the council does not, it has failed in its mission. I could just as easily declare a scum win for that reason.

China sees his whole point being negated by a change of rules, and requests to be removed from the speaker's list, to have his resolution removed from the agenda, and wishes to entertain a

motion to close debate.

Vote: In favor

[Flying Dutchman]

By special request from the United States, China returns to the Speaker's list, while noting his internet access on saturday will be questionable, so answers may not come before sunday.

[Flying Dutchman]

China wishes to make a statement before any questions are asked.

The delegate from China thought that the veto powers always could force a draw in the end-game, as no succesful solution to the nuking problem could be made without them. I didn't realise this untill voting began, and I thought that was an advantage not to be surrendered lightly, so I vetoed.

However, Mr. Chairman has made a clarification of the rules that there doesn't have to be a nuking resolution accepted, reasonable

attempts

to that will suffice to go to night. This means the foundation under my veto has disappeared, and I have no reason to stop this resolution from being accepted. This is why I motioned to close debate, as I was the only one who was against this in the first place, and with my change of opinion the resolution could be accepted without further debate.

While my actions may have seemed reckless, all I tried to do was saving the world from doom. China doesn't know what's left to discuss, and urges the countries who forced her to this place to ask their questions.

After 24 hours without new questions I will entertain another motion to close debate.

[Flying Dutchman]

POI to the speaker:

Does China now realise that its attempts to close debate in the midst of discussions with no prior explanation has caused it to appear extremely out of order and has needlessly wasted time voting against motions that few of us support?

Yes.


Any other questions?

[Flying Dutchman]

POI to the Speaker:

Why has China been so reluctant to enter the Speakers' list, and in particular why did China not voice its concerns the first time this resolution was on the table?

Because I didn't realise the weak points of the resolution untill I reread the introduction given by the chair during the voting.

Also, for what reason did China resubmit MUNSCM 006 as 008 after the agenda clearing only to withdraw it before it could be discussed and voted on? Clearly you thought it important enough to insist on its presence at first; what changed? This applies also to MUNSCM 011, but this delegate is unsure if MUNSCM 011 was identical to the other two or still another resolution-on-a-yoyo.

Because all resolutions were about points already resolved at the time they could be adressed with my resolutions, or clarifications of the chair and players made them unnecessary.

[Flying Dutchman]

Point of Information to the Speaker:

What reassurance can China offer us in concern that China is not at risk of being a potential member of the Axis of Evil?

As you all know, there is nothing I can say that can prove I'm not. The only thing that can do that is a weapon inspection, but I do not wish to volunteer for that, for either I'm dead tomorrow if I don't get the MABM, or I put the other veto-nations open for attacks.

[Flying Dutchman]

China

votes in favour

[Flying Dutchman]

China votes in favour

[Flying Dutchman]

Point of Information to the Speaker:

As the accused would vote against almost certainly if this means his own death, is there even a theoretical situation imaginable where the second clause would come to effect?

[Flying Dutchman]

You know, I made it to the national round of Holland of the Model European Parliament, which is quite like this actually

International MEP, here I come! :d

[Flying Dutchman]

Pakistan is here!

that wasnt witty

China agrees.

[Flying Dutchman]

Pakistan is here!

that wasnt witty

China agrees.

So does Chile.

Did Chile really have to do that? Now we had a quote in a quote in a quote! Doesn't Chile realise what a disaster this is, it makes it SO hard to read and understand!

[Flying Dutchman]

Vote: In favor

[Flying Dutchman]

China votes

in favour

[Flying Dutchman]

China: In favor

[Flying Dutchman]

Yes I do. I personally feel that our best plan of action is to prohibit a nuclear strike today. In all honesty, I've noticed aggressive playing and passive playing, but I haven't noticed anything really scummy. I feel that lynching would be a dice roll at this point and that's not in our favour at all. Tomorrow we'll most likely have a confirmed innocent protected cop and more to go on.

We can't wait for guilty results in this game! It just doesn't work that way, we don't have the time for that. I think we should lynch.


:mrgreen::mrgreen:

YAY! 1000 posts for me!!!!!!!!

:mrgreen::mrgreen:

(Not officially, but by "search for all posts by this user")

[Flying Dutchman]

I second that. We should decide where to go next.

[Flying Dutchman]

China thinks he has explained his actions sufficiently to ensure the delegate from Benin that they were not anti-town in any way, although this delegate has to admit it may have been a bit reckless.

(But I'm representing one of the last remaining communist countries in the world, so I need to be a bit reckless to ensure the World Revolution Marx predicted comes

[Flying Dutchman]

Delegate from Romania, why are you so aggresive and defensive?

[Flying Dutchman]

And I say this to the Axis of Evil:

Despite the duration and length of this arduous day, we will not falter, we will not fail in pursuit of finding and destroying your vile cause. Hold your liberty and your freedoms dear, for if you continue to threaten liberty and the pursuit of justice, it will be your nation, not ours of the free world, that will fall to the fate of disaster.

(...)

We will meet the call of destruction via terrorism with justice, and we will see that justice is done. Let us take the proper course of action. As long as we are bound by these walls, no nation will have to face the horror of destruction.

Delegate of the USA, it just struck me how easily I could've seen that you're from that country by your views. I wish to congratulate you with the excellent representation of your country's views!

[Flying Dutchman]

China

Motions to Ammend the Agenda

, by tabling the shelved resolution, MUNSCH 007

[Flying Dutchman]

and votes

in favour

[Flying Dutchman]

Point of information directed at the speaker:

Do you consider the USA more or less likely to be a member of the Axis of Evil after his Points of Information? Why?

[Flying Dutchman]

Vote: Against

We just NEED a decision at this point and end the day, it has lasted long enough.

[Flying Dutchman]

China votes

in favor

[Flying Dutchman]

Vote: In Favor

It seems the best thing to do.........

[Flying Dutchman]

Delegate from France, you're right, but out of order too, and so is China, by the way.

[Flying Dutchman]

China is still awake.

[Flying Dutchman]

The delegate from China reports for duty.

Point of information directed at the Chair:

Could you please give us a sign of activity?

[Flying Dutchman]

Flying Dutchman, Delegate from China, agrees,
and
Flying Dutchman, Theme Park List Mod, locks this topic untill the mod has returned. Untill then, this game is ON HOLD.

Sorry guys........