Benin votes
MUNSCM - Abandoned
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Point of information directed at the chair:How does one go about proposing an amendment to a motion?
As long as I'm asking things anyway,
Point of information directed at the chair:Is the list of verbs used in MUNSCM 000 exhaustive, or is a resolution or amendment to same valid with any present-tense English verb? Can a clause state, for example,Prohibitsmembers of the Axis of Evil from voting; orAllotsthe country of Benin fifteen investigations nightly, a quintuple vote and veto power; orWorshipsthe delegate from Benin as a god?I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Point of information directed to the chair:Assuming this resolution passes, what happens next? I.e. what is the legal force of a "strong suggestion" to destroy a country?I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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(Public service announcement: I am Sabbath observant and will not ever be posting between Friday evening and Saturday night New York time. I will try to post Friday afternoons and Saturday nights, but depending on convenience factors it is possible for me to have stretches of Thursday to Sunday without posts. These should not be construed as lurks or neglect but as quirks of schedule.)I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Point of information directed to the speaker:How is it that you were "not aware" of one of the most fundamental rules, and possibly the most often repeated, of the game's mechanics? Also, why the vitriol indicated in your response to the delegate from France? "I will see you all in hell" hardly speaks of your goodwill toward this body. As the resolution stands your country isn't even in any danger -- refer to the chair's response to the pertinent question.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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As my home computer is screaming and I do not anticipate having access to the school computers any time between tomorrow afternoon and Sunday night, I am going to post my speech now. That way, the most immediate points of information will not have a three-day wait for responses.
On the fitness of Romania for nuclear strike:
There are some good grounds for this action: the delegate from Romania's motion to close debate on a resolution which, it should be patently obvious to all, is utterly useless without some kind of amendment, comes immediately to mind. This seems to indicate a wish that the resolution be passed in its useless form, to be a nonaction quickly forgotten. But this is only the latest in a series.
Mr. ZONEACE has asserted of late that his apparent disregard of the rule that countries may not veto their own annihilation is the result of ignorance of the rules. After seventeen pages, I find this most unlikely; further, in speaking on MUNSCM 003 and proposing his recent motion he demonstrated that he does, indeed, know the rules. What is more, during caucus he said this:
This post clearly entertains the concept ofI am going to have to agree with mathcam on this one. To give the power of Veto to 2 evil countries seems a bit, well insane and unbalanced.oneevil veto country, and indicates awareness of the inherent flaw in the existence oftwo-- or, possibly, knowledge to the effect that the countries with power of veto have more power than the rest of us are aware. Either he has contradicted himself, or he has knowledge that Romania should not possess.
The delegate from Romania, as mentioned above, spoke on MUNSCM 003. The entire thrust of his speech was that "I just don't see any of the Big 5 being members of the axis of evil", and on the strength of his not seeing, we should obliterate almost the whole point of the resolution! If his arguments had carried the day, we would be inspecting a random country, likelier than not a "Big 5" nonmember, in blind trust that all of the "Big 5" are good -- and at the same time keeping our MABM away from the same countries in which blind trust is supposedly being placed. And then heimmediately stepped down. After dropping this bombshell, the delegate from Romania did not even allow us the chance for points of information from him. Was he concerned that points of information would trip up his facade of being helpful to the United Nations? I think so.
Don't get me wrong; it is entirely possible that all three members of the Axis of Evil are temporary members rather than one of them being permanent. But the other way around is equally possible, and all our eggs should not be in either basket. The delegate from Romania's attempts to wangle our eggs not only into one basket but the more potentially catastrophic of the two, and his extreme vehemence on the subject, I find most worrying. Equally worrying, almost as soon as I pointed out that the current resolution puts his country in no immediate danger, he moved to close debate on it lest it be improved. It should be noted, though, that I am confused at the delegate from the Philippines' assertion that Mr. ZONEACE has been "protecting the veto-powered countries", and intend to inquire about it when it is the Philippines' turn to speak; it seems to me that Mr. ZONEACE has been doing precisely the opposite of protecting said countries, or at least the innocent ones as the Axis of Evil is hardly in danger of nuking itself, and indeed this is a point of concern for me.
On the advisability of attempting to nuke Romania at this time:
There is an amendment which I would like to propose, but I am under the impression that having made a speech, I must request a second placement on the speakers' list, and at any rate I think the Chair would not appreciate it if I proposed an amendment while a motion was technically on the floor. My amendment will attempt to address the following problem: either we choose to target veto-powered countries or we choose to target countries not so empowered. I think no one here needs to be convinced that on this first day of the crisis the first "option" is a Very Bad Idea. This leaves us with nonempowered countries -- but to lynch one such, we must first put blind faith in there being no evil among the Permanent Members, for if any one of them is evil, that country can simply veto its fellow evildoer's destruction. It follows that if any one of the Permanent Members are evil, we can destroy only the innocent until we have found the traitorous Permanent Member. My amendment will attempt to find a way out of this cruel paradox, and I will propose it at the Security Council's earliest convenience, but unless the Chair informs me otherwise, that time is not now.
(Point of information directed at the Chair:May I propose an amendment (once voting on the current motion is done) having spoken as I just have, or must I wait until my turn on the speaker's list comes around again?)
I now stand for points of information.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Fortunately it appears that this computer is functioning again.
Delegate from the United Kingdom, of course the Axis of Evil will not automatically veto resolutions to destroy their fellows if those fellows blunder so flagrantly that nonsuspicion of them is itself damning, or if the resolution is the result of a weapons report or the like. However, most of the time and particularly on this first day there will be few situations where such a veto would not be in the best interests of the Axis.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Delegate from Pakistan, your proposed amendment is premature and insufficient. Certainly something of the sort will be necessary before debate is closed on MUNSCM 007, but a far more pressing problem is the fact that any country we successfully destroy is almost certainly innocent by the very fact that we were allowed to destroy it.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Delegate from Germany, there are three countries in the Axis of Evil. If one of them has veto power and we are not voting for it, it can exercise that power or not as it sees fit. It is not, assuming its delegates are sane, going to vote in favor of its allies' destruction without a very, very good reason. Therefore, the fact that such a country, if it exists, is voting in favor of a country among the temporaries is an indication that that temporary is not its ally -- but we cannot lynchanyoneunless the Axis with veto accedes to it.
This does not apply if we are voting on a veto-powered Axis country, but one, Romania isn't, and two, we shouldn't be voting on veto-powered countries at all yet.
Point of information directed to the Chair:Are countries named in resolutions prohibited fromvotingon them, as implied by the delegate from Germany, or are they merely denied power ofveto, with their vote counting as if they were temporary members?I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Delegate from the United Kingdom, we would first have to pass a motion to reconsider MUNSCM 003 and then propose an amendment to it. A superseding resolution could work, that is true, but consider the ramifications: if we investigate, say, the UK for vetoing MUNSCM 007, we must also, per MUNSCM 003, send them MABMs. Thus the Axis can target anyone but the UK and know they will score a hit. Allowing the inspections to be based on something inferrable in-thread tells the Axis who not to target (or that all targets are safe because they have the MABMs); the whole point of MUNSCM 003 in the first place was to avoid the Axis' knowing who is investigated for precisely this reason. Resolving to send inspectors to Romania would be even worse; it would be MUNSCM 001 all over again.
Additionally, such an amendment implicitly presupposes that the Permanent Members would only veto a lynch if they are protecting their scum allies. Surely some might sincerely believe in the target country's innocence and refuse to sign off on their destruction for that reason. (Okay, it may be a valid presupposition in Romania's case, but it isn't a precedent we are best served in setting.)I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Delegate from the United States, I have already agreed that if they feel it necessary, the Axis might well sacrifice an Axis member. I merely point out that if they veto, we have no way of knowing that theyareprotecting an Axis member rather than vetoing because they sincerely believe the target nation innocent. Both people and nations have been wrongly suspected before -- quite often for excellent reasons. And people often refuse to believe, both accurately and not so much, that the suspicions of the majority are valid. The Axis's choices are not likely to be sacrifice their fellow or be outed themselves with no third option. If they do find themselves in such a position, such as if the country in question had been investigated, I am sure they would have no compunction for letting go the less powerful Axis nation to protect the more powerful, but refusal to annihilate a country is not prima facie evidence oflackof respect for human life.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The delegate from Benin had thought that his response to the amendment proposed by the delegate from Pakistan qualified as "speaking against", but that's neither here nor there.
Delegate from the United Kingdom, you seem to be suggesting a major overhaul of your own resolution. If this is not what you meant, please clarify. If itiswhat you meant, this delegate believes less drastic measures will serve, at least for the time being. We can always, after all, reconsider MUNSCM 003 if the current lines of discussion fail.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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The delegate from Benin wishes to speak against this amendment. My primary concern is that, according to the Chair's clarification, it has no provisions that will be effective to prevent the Axis of Evil from vetoing a lynch of one of its own (assuming it has a member with veto power) while letting slide a lynch of innocents. Secondarily, I believe the word "requires" is a bit overused and "Directs a nuclear strike at Romania" would be a better phrasing; albeit, this is a semantic difference only.
However, Benin also requests to be removed from the Speakers' list, as the amendment I intended to propose would also be ineffective per the Chair's most recent clarification.
Point of information directed at the Chair:Suppose we voted on the resolution, with this amendment passing, clause by clause, and the second clause passed while the first one failed. What would happen then?I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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It could. Indeed a second resolution is probably the only way to go. But we have to create the second resolutionbeforevoting on MUNSCM 007, which means we will need a motion to shelve as soon as we reach the end of the Speakers' list. This amendment or one like it can be considered just as easily the second time MUNSCM 007 comes around as the first.
Benin, for the sake of consistency (Ihavejust spoken against this amendment, after all) votesagainstbut is not particularly worried about the consequences of it passing. The amendment is insufficient and therefore at this time superfluous -- not badper se.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Point of information directed to the speaker:Referential to the second statement in the preamble, in what way is Romania trying toprotectveto-powered nations? Spreading the MABM over a wider field of potential locations than simply the veto powers is harmful to them, surely?
Also, why is "protecting the veto powers" in itself a bad thing? At most one of them can possibly be evil, and there might well be none.Andif anyone has a special role, it will likely be a veto power. Logically, given the choice, the veto powers would be the group among our options to protect, wouldn't it?I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Points of information directed at the speaker:
In your defense, you argue that your reasoning has been that it is impossible for there to betwonations with veto power among the Axis of Evil. However, your actual arguments have centered on the assertion that there is not evenone. Please explain.
Regarding your comments on defending the nations with veto power: Do you not realize that, far fromdefendingthe nations with veto power, your attempted amendment actively endangers them? If we do not keep the MABMs withiin the Permanent Members, there is a two-thirds chance thatnoPermanent Member will be protected tonight and the Axis can pick one off freely. By restricting the MABM placement, our odds of preventing a nuclear strike triple (presuming the Axis goes after the more dangerous-to-them Permanent Members first).
Also, how does widening the field of possible locations for our inspectors widen our information net? Our net remains the same; all you would succeed in doing is widen the ocean. That makes our task harder, not easier.
Additionally, theprologic you posted in your reply to the Philippines is the reason most of us supported this aspect of MUNSCM 003 -- but it runs exactly counter to your stated "widen the information net" arguments only a few posts up. To which opinion do you adhere, and why put the other one forward?
Finally, this delegate also posted arguments concerning the fitness of Romania for council-sanctioned nuclear strike. I would appreciate it if you could post a rebuttal.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Point of information directed at the speaker:We have already been told that there are exactly three members of the Axis of evil. Not four, and not two except inasmuch as there are two on the way to being three. Five is right out.
As such, if there is an evil permanent member, there aretwoevil temporary members -- another 1/5 chance, and we need to find the permanent memberfirst. That is the task that "widening the net" makes harder -- finding the permanent member, if such exists. Also consider that where the weapons inspectors go, so go the MABMs.
This delegate is confused. Since two is impossible, you feel we should ignore the possibility that there is one?I find it absolutely impossible for there to be 2 axis of evil nations with veto power because then the axis of evil would be almost impossible. That is why i have been fighting the idea of even 1 evil veto nation.
This delegate also refers you to his turn on the Speakers' Listsupra, the section titled "On the fitness of Romania for nuclear strike", and requests that you comment on the opinions expressed therein.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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BeninMoves to Shelve MUNSCM 007. It is the belief of this delegate that with the end of the Speakers' List reached and apparently no one immediately inclined to ask points of information from the current speaker, the next order of business will be to vote on the resolution; and it is the opinion of this delegate that voting on the resolution will be potentially disastrous without measures in place to prevent the Axis from exercising a hypothetical veto if and only if Romania is one of their own. Therefore, the wisest course of action would seem to be to put MUNSCM 007 aside until 008 and 009 have been discussed and voted on, and only then to determine Romania's fate. This requires a shelf motion.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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My resolutionwouldhave to come up less than a week before Passover. This delegate alerts the Security Council that until the 14th or so posts may not come as frequently as its members would like and begs their indulgence. Actually, this could turn out convenient, since I cannot be first on the Speakers' List anyway.
MUNSCM 009: Oddsmaking
Notingthat there is at most one nation among the permanent members of the Security Council in the Axis of Evil and may well be none;
Observingthat our odds of striking scum are therefore either equal or far better by focusing on the non-permanent members;
Acknowledging that if there is an evil permanent member then we cannot lynch evil non-permanent members;
1.Restrictsconsideration of countries to be targeted by UN nuclear weapons to the non-permanent members of the Security Council until further notice;
2.Removespermanent members of the Security Council's power of veto over resolutions concerning annihilation of specific countries, also until further notice.
-- submitted by the delegate from Benin, who now steps down.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Point of information directed at the speaker:Is it your opinion that there are or might be two evil veto powers? If so, why?
Point of information directed at the chair:Do the "until further notice" clauses have the intended effect of creating a standing barrier that will nonetheless not be too hard to remove should the town deem it necessary, or do they effectively do nothing, or have I created giant lizards rampaging in downtown Tokyo? Especially, what is to be considered "further notice"?I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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This delegate reminds the Council that due to this week being Passover, he will not be able to deal with any questions with the attention they deserve; else he would already be on the Speakers' List. Please ask questions of the current speaker and get on the Speakers' List yourselves or the game will stagnate.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Benin will ask to be put on the Speakers' List so as not to leave it vacant, but will still not have opportunity to actually utilize the speaker role until Tuesday night or possibly Wednesday. If anyone else wishes to speak between now and then, Benin automatically lets them "cut in line".I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Aww, I didn't get a chance to defend my initial resolution. Ah well; I was and am of the opinion that not voting the permanent members is to our advantage until and unless we have information on them or some remarkable reason to vote them in information's absence, and the resolution-as-stated was intended to offer them some protection aganst scum spamming the council with resolutions to lynch them, but it did not offer so much additional protection for them that the revocation of the first clause is likely to lead to any tragedies. We just have to use our common sense and not propose any of them without some stellar reasons.
For the delegate from Germany, I point out that two scum countries with veto power could have (until this resolution) vetoed each other's lynches with impunity and there would have been no way for the UN to win, ever. Therefore I credit the Chair with the foresight to ascertain that there were not, in fact, two countries with veto power on the Axis of Evil before convening this council.
For the delegate from China, I realize that the "safety" of pro-town permanent members vetoing each other's lynches is gone, but one, who assures the rest of the council that they are pro-town (and once such assurance is given, why are they up for lynching?), and two, we need the anti-town members to be vetoless far more, since as long as they aren't we will find it impossible to lynch non-permanent members unless they are pro-town. Indeed, I wonder at your opposition to such an abundantly necessary move.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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I would also like to speak against the motion proposed by the Philippines just now. (I believe the motion to reconsider has already passed.) We should let the people who wish to speak get on the Speakers' List and make their points first, or we won't have anything to talk about in caucus anyway. Once the Speakers' List is exhausted we can worry about caucusing then.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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POI to the Speaker:Why has China been so reluctant to enter the Speakers' list, and in particular why did China not voice its concerns the first time this resolution was on the table?
Also, for what reason did China resubmit MUNSCM 006 as 008 after the agenda clearing only to withdraw it before it could be discussed and voted on? Clearly you thought it important enough to insist on its presence at first; what changed? This applies also to MUNSCM 011, but this delegate is unsure if MUNSCM 011 was identical to the other two or still another resolution-on-a-yoyo.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Point of Information to the Speaker:How many votes do you advocate to be reckoned a "clear majority" and henceforth the resolution would be unvetoable by Permanent Members late with their votes? Eight in favor? Eight in favor before anyone opposes? Fourteen in favor? Some other number? The resolution as stated appears to indicate fourteen, but this delegate would like the threshold to be made absolutely clear.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Point of Information to the Chair:If this resolution passes, could, say, France veto a resolution on sending inspectors to Russia, or is the revocation of veto power limited to the country whose inspection is under question?I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Point of Information directed at the Speaker:Granting that the first clause does nothing, what harm does it do? And assuming that there is none, what harm is there in allowing a useless operative clause to "piggyback" on a resolution? i.e. assuming that consensus is reached regarding the second clause, would you still object to the resolution on grounds related to its first clause, and if so, why?I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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While Benin agrees that the only thing remaining for us to do is decide who to destroy, Benin feels that the best way to do this is to table MUNSCM 007 again andvotes againstgoing to caucus. Should the consensus of the Council benotto destroy Romania, we can go to caucus then.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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Vote: yes, extend caucus. The delegate from Benin had his microphone turned off for the Sabbath and has been unable to participate.
Germany: You what? I was badgering China incessantly? As I recall, the person who spoke of China's actions as "his most recent treachery" sprechens sie Deutch. In particular what set offmyalarm bells re China was that he had refused to enter himself on to the Speakers' List until pushed, despite having two separate Speakers' Lists to join; this when it was his actions in particular that warranted discussion; he attepted to close debate without taking the turn to speak; and this seemed part of a pattern regarding trying to maneuver the Council without his voice being heard. In particular Resolutions 006 and 008 were one resolution expressly resubmitted to the Agenda after the housecleaning claimed it, and then removed immediately before the Council had a chance to see it. This delegate thought he saw a pattern emerging, and wished to question China regarding its elements. If doing so when one sees a pattern is wrong, this delegate humbly requests not to be right.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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You'll notice, delegate from China, that I haven't been pursuing these issues. I was elaborating on what I had been pursuing at the time. Your responses were a bit weak, I felt, but consistent and sensical enough to allay my suspicion for the time being. I would appreciate, though, if you could post what the texts of your motions were, so we the council could at least see what you judged to no longer be relevant.
I second the United States's wish to understand Romania's motivations in voting against extension of caucus.I think it's pretty clear that TSS's awesomeness did alter the roles each of us recieved, and thus he's obviously pro-town. -- Save The Dragons-
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