Reck's Retrospective Rehash - OVER (thx obama)

[fferyllt]

Hi guys!

I'm going to start by reading some isos. Let me know if there's stuff I should focus on right away.

[fferyllt]

I'm starting with a look at the isos of nexus and ooba.

it's a mess in there. click at your own risk.

Spoiler:

Living replacements
farside22 --> juls --> crashtextdummie-->Bookitty
Desperado -->bella

Nexus interaction with 50 shades starting around 144, chainsawing 50 shades over bella?

150 "tell me your meta, I can't be assed to do meta research because meta can be manipulaed. Heh

- Chevre gets a slight town read for "It's bad because it gives scum the chance to risk-manage and pick from games that have better/more town power roles,

but town can kind of do the same I guess if the goin gets tough.

"
For example, the game that has the Janitor + 3 other possible scum roles is much more dangerous than the one with 2 goons and an encryptor. (See above)
- ZZZX's notes remind of Titus's notes in the GoT Upick game. It just shows effort without any real scum hunting.
- I'm torn on Desp. I've played games with him where he's claimed early - and I don't see scum taking a forceful stance for claiming. However, I have other *reasons* as to why I'm still unsure.
- But I'm going to vote 4burner for two reasons:
a) He didn't get Chevre's statement on town doing the same thing if the going gets tough. His reply to the underlined part above: "And why would town fakeclaim a role from a different game anyway? That is so strange." - shows an inability of thinking of the game from a town standpoint.
b) I really don't like the desp push. Seems forced.

Vote : 4burner

@Shinobi: You sounded pretty suspicious of 4burner? Why not vote him?

This list makes me think scum-Desp, though he also equivocates on Chevre, and his comment on zzzx miiiight be distancing. Though I have a vague idea zxxx could just be an easy target based on another game we played.

4burner has votes at this point. Note to self - find out why.

In 209 210 nexus and ooba interact - so cones of silence around partners may not be a thing.

310 - ooba now reading 4burner town, chevre still town, and votes zzzx. hm. (chevre was a cop)

355 ooba null on UT, SK (both dead town).

361 ooba pushes back on triforce's push of wgeurts, day 1 lynch. Wondering if ooba tends to wk easy lynches?

506 is a strong fos of nexus. looking at the day 1 wagons, nexus was a credible lynch all the way to the point where the wgeurts wagon went dominant, so I think this maybe suggests that ooba wouldn't distance without reason. Not sure that's the best way to say what I'm trying to say though!
Seeing in the nexus iso that juls defended wgeurts pretty hard. Also seeing some over the top? pissyness from Nexus toward Juls about mispelling his name.

605 nexus about cdb - 50 shades called nexus on ignoring cdb's push (I think), which kicks off some interaction. Looks like a course correction attempt.

661 ooba distancing again. The wgeurts and nexus wagons are way better than the zzzx wagon. But, I don't think he's ever indicated a townread of zzzx so far.

720 This doesn't feel like a scum-scum convo with ZZZX, at least from ooba's side. Feels more like keeping a possible mislynch in his pocket for later.

722 comparing this to the interaction with ZZZX. I don't know if this is typical of his scum game, but what I'm seeing is that he has interacted directly with a town player and not really explained his nexus scum read (so far). He did explain the wgeurts read (kinda). These trajectories maybe also point to ZZZX-town.

768 Nexus pushing ZZZX over wgeurts. I don't think this was distancing since a weakened wgeurts wagon would be more likely to result in nexus' lynch than in ZZZX's. Another scum maybe on the wgeurts wagon?

Ooba's 1014 and 1043 look like buddying.

1326 - ooba's bro read. "will feel better about this read if Shinobi flips scum" - I need to look at bro/shinobi interactions to see if this is significant. Defense of triforce for wgeurts vote. Scum in his group of 3 players he has no idea of stances, maybe.

1339 full reads list. If he thinks like I think as scum, there's at least one scum in his town tiers. It's an oddity that AD is null but not actually in his null pile, like that line was moved around or something. He lists 4 scum, but wants to lynch from three of them. jmj is the one not in his preferred lynch list.

1544 being helpful to ZZZX, then in 1582 calls ZZZX town. No idea yet if this was justified by the gamestate at this time. feels like buddying in iso.

1642 stands out because it's one of the few mentions of AD up to this point. Also votes Kise based on CTD case.

1672 - is on the Aegor counterwagon and encourages players to move to the top wagons. I think this points away from kise-scum unless CTD's case was so fucking awesome ooba thought he had to bus.

There are a few posts involved, but the posts around 1803[/post} are curious. Ooba had gone to the effort to set up a "pere's lurking at deadline" case for day 3, which suggests pere-town, except rather than just abandon the case he made a big deal out of pere posting during that period.

[post]1842 - ooba proposes a townbloc. I want to say there's a partner in this group. Maybe 2.

1891 this doesn't feel like scum-scum interaction to me.

2019 loled at this, though it may be true. "I've intentionally changed my playstyle".

2053 makes me want to look carefully at the day 1 wagons, given his comment about what scum-ooba would do. But, the nexus wagon maybe constrained him to give up a stance that scum-ooba would like to take.

2139 - he was neck and neck with kise at this point, so I think his posts from here on in may be in part about damage control.

2144 and 2145 - he backs off kise and focuses on his own wagon. Calls out my slot and Bookitty's slot as the scum on the wagon. From the iso it's clear that 50 shades was pushing his wagon hard and he's townread triforce for most of the game.

2171 reaches out to bella re my slot.

I see mention of Desp's near suicide? Need to check on that

2231 - he's given up avoiding the lynch here, so I'm tempted to ignore this completely, but will come back to it after I've had a look at interactions living players had with ooba and nexus.

[fferyllt]

If you would like a summary from my perspective (and please note I replaced in late myself) then I'd be happy to write something up for you.

Everyone has claimed except for Kise and you.

summary would be awesome. who claimed the Nexus nk?

[fferyllt]

Heh. The last time I replaced into a game with an unclaimed NK, it was my slot that hadn't claimed it.

I'll be back in a few hours. I want to look at living players' stances on known scum next.

[fferyllt]

Enjoy that. If you want to enlighten us with your claim, it would be appreciated.

Did Riddleton disappear before mass claim happened? Is this an actual mass claim?

I'm a JOAT.

Majiffy used heart of gold on 50 shades on night 1.

Riddleton used hands of a doctor on 50 shades on night 2 and eye of the eagle on Triforce on night 4 - he got no result back on the watch.

Also, a quick sift through a couple isos gave me the impression that this is lylo/mylo despite the numbers. Why?

[fferyllt]

I have no idea what they were unhappy about.

[fferyllt]

Looking through their iso, that looks like the last time they expressed concerns about Majiffy, though.

Looking through your iso, it looks like you copped me?

[fferyllt]

phoneposting right now. if you can't find it yourself I'll quote stuff tonight.

he protected 50 on night 2. he watched triforce on n4. dunno why he didn't action on n3.

[fferyllt]

hai!

I need help. There are too many bits and pieces and not enough time on the clock to find them all and put them together. I found some claims in an iso but they didn't look like a complete list.

[fferyllt]

The only thing that would explain ffery's claim, to me, is if Majiffy was roleblocked by scum on Night 1. Need to go back and read him and Riddleton to see if there's any recognition of that.

I don't have time tonight to collate a full list of claims; if someone else could do that, I'd appreciate it. I think Kise is the only one left to claim?

Maybe I'm seeing what I expect to see, but I think there was a pronounced handshake between them, initiated by Majiffy.

[fferyllt]

I"m working through the claims and actions right now. Will post them when I'm done. In the meanwhile as I'm reading through from post 3673, here are some questions and comments.

BRO on the other hand has pushed for his own lynch in the way I would think a vengeful townie would do.

Please back this up.

Because

1) he claimed early and used his role as a threat
2) as town you don't claim supersaint regardless
3) what's so townie about voting yourself in a show of giving up early in the day when it's clear that most people didn't want to lynch him?

I was going to beat you over the head for this post, but then I realized that you didn't play Xenogears.

I'm completely weirded out by discovering tha

t ZZZX didn't actually claim beloved princess but accepted Kise's suggestion

. (I know it's not exactly like that but that's sure as hell how it reads.) I don't know why I didn't notice this on my first readthrough.

CDB and BRO, can you give me your reads on Kise? Thanks in advance!

^^ Making a note to check this.

No, also play+how other people have responded to his play

I kinda had this impression from reading through nexus and ooba.

CDB

- How is your cop range limited in this game?

[fferyllt]

I'm assuming this post was complete and accurate. I'm starting here and working forward for more claims.

Much as I'd rather you just bloody *do* something yourself rather than just hang around and wait for others to do it, ZZZX, an updated list of claims would be useful so here is one. I've only just woken up so alert me if I missed anything.

ActionDan - Murder of Papa Zito - 1-shot Cop
jmj3000 - Lost Season 3 - Odd-Night Roleblocker
Bella - Frat Party Mafia - VT
Riddleton - Lost Season 2 -
ChannelDelibird - Ocarina of Time -
Bookitty - Chuck Season One -
Kise - Left 4 Dead -
ZZZX - Lost Season 1 - Beloved Prince
4burner - Suburban Warfare - Injecting Self-Watcher
BROseidon - It's Always Sunny - Supersaint
PeregrineV - Sexy Sedilla - VT

ActionDan - Murder of Papa Zito - 1-shot Cop (inno on jmj3000)
jmj3000 - Lost Season 3 - Odd-Night Roleblocker (blocked desp/bella n1, vezok n3?, triforce n5?)
Bella - Frat Party Mafia - VT
fferyllt - Lost Season 2 - JOAT (Heart of Gold - n1, Hand of Doctor - n2, Eye of Eagle - n4)
ChannelDelibird - Ocarina of Time - range limited (?) cop
Bookitty - Chuck Season One - Vanilla Town
Kise - Left 4 Dead -
ZZZX - Lost Season 1 - Beloved Prince
4burner - Suburban Warfare - Injecting Self-Watcher (any results?)
BROseidon - It's Always Sunny - Supersaint
PeregrineV - Sexy Sedilla - VT

[fferyllt]

In my skimming last night, I got the impression that Pere is a near-universal townread. Is that correct? What's the basis? His play?

[fferyllt]

Groomed to mislynch, or to be mislynched?

[fferyllt]

Peregrine has been town by play made more obvious by the 4burner back and forth. And now there's a cop inno on him in a game with no scum godfathers

There is? I thought CDB said he was blocked that night.

The post I'm thinking about is this one.

Mollie can we cuddle? I really think UT is scum and we should lynch him posthaste.

He spent the entire time cheering on Bro during his re-read because he wanted to discuss his reads. He disappeared as soon as Bro finished and posted reads.
He's been largely active-lurking; look at his quick response to someone asking for the UT case. Then back to lurking.
He was cheering on the Dan wagon while his vote was and still is elsewhere.

And this is all just in the last 10 pages.

I AM HERE FOR YOU MAJIFFY!!!!

I am sorry you are feeling unloved. it isn't a very fun feeling to have.

ut has 138 posts so he is hardly active lurking. I am keeping what you say in the back of my mind and i am not going to lie I have my paranoid moments about him. I often get paranoid about him. but I still maintain that keeping far and I from tearing into each other was pretty freaking protown. he tried to do the same thing with julz. the niggles I have about him are his interactions with skrew and the skrew nk. plus the strange back and forth he has going on with glork. that was a really weird nk. in good conscience I can't vote him in serious. (yes i am aware my vote is still on him). right now I just don't have enough. you are going to have to give me time.

@ ut - in wicked who made the first couple of posts you or tbone?

I am thinking about what iceyrent said last night, about ap saying 1 way to trace scumbuddies is their unnatural aggression towards each other. I think shinoboi's dislike of 4burner for absolutely zero discernible reason fits in that category.

It fits the heart of gold flavor.

[fferyllt]

I think I want to rule Pere out for today, based on his iso plus the near universal thing.

[fferyllt]

The only thing that would explain ffery's claim, to me, is if Majiffy was roleblocked by scum on Night 1.

I'm pretty sure the mod would inform majiffy of this as our tracker was informed and I would be informed if my action failed

It's not an investigative ability. Why would he be informed?

[fferyllt]

Ah you're right! I don't know why I had it in my head that he got a fail result on pere. Good.

[fferyllt]

Cdb.

Are you saying cuddling is flavor relevant or feeling unloved is flavor relevant or both?

it was the combo of the two posts. "unloved" definitely caught my eye, but the call-and-response aspect is what stood out to me, especially "I am here for you".

from that point, their interactions changed. later, there was a lengthy exchange with riddleton, but to me it looks more like schooling someone they thought was wrong about something, than about sorting him.

[fferyllt]

ok. I did look at the role PM and I didn't understand how the timber range would work.

on a related note, I did ask for extra time to get caught up after I replaced in, but 3 days is not enough to get fully up to speed. I don't feel like I can place an informed vote yet. I'm doing my best.

right now, aside from flipped scum I'm focusing on living players in my catch up. If there's something important I should know about the game that relates to dead town, plz point it out.

[fferyllt]

4burner, I went through the last page of your iso to see if I could follow your reasoning for bella-scum. It looks like you've bounced back and forth on whether she's scum a little, and I don't see what's led to your read changes.

She's scum because desp? because of interactions with ooba? because setup spec?

[fferyllt]

I just went through Kise's iso. I think he's made one or two posts since I replaced in, and the content looked defensive and lurky. I haven't absorbed the content, was just looking at whether the activity has been similar to my time in the game. It doesn't look that way.

What I'm seeing toward the end are complaints about bad deadline lynches and defeatism, though. Is this accurate? Most of the other stuff I've read from Kise was from my review of ooba's posts, and he looked pretty town there.

[fferyllt]

Bookitty, I haven't been able to cement the read, but I'm leaning pretty town on you. I'd like to vote with you and CDB today. I hope you guys wind up on the same page before the end of the day.

I'm also townreading Bro.

I've read parts of CDB's iso several times, because it's been a good way to catch up on the gamestate. One post that stood out was his annoyance when he realized he could have/should have waited another day to claim. That feels verytown to me.

I like that Action Dan went after me pretty aggressively because he didn't think my claim fit. My slot didn't appear to be on his radar all that much prior to the post, so it feels like a genuine reaction. Genuine doesn't necessarily mean town, but I like to start there.

Bro feels incredibly town to me.

I don't know what to do about ZZZX. That's one of the most worthless iso's I've ever skimmed. The reasons for putting him aside today make sense I think.


I've done about the same level of look-see on Bella that I have kise. My sense is that she's made pushes and put down data to a reasonable extent. I'm not going to focus there until night phase since she's not currently on the table.

I don't usually put a lot of time into analysis during night phases unless I have an action or a neighborhood where I can dump the data in case I die. This night phase will be an exception.

[fferyllt]

I just looked at every post in your iso where you mentioned 4burner and I came away with no fucking idea why you are voting him.

Please elucidate.

[fferyllt]

Bro feels incredibly town to me.

Why?

Mostly for the same reasons I've seen you advance for him being scum. His claim and how he's using it. But also, tonal stuff. It's a snap read, but at this point all my reads are snap reads.

I haven't mentioned 4burner but the sheer effort I see in his iso, plus the part he played in building an ooba case - the stuff about ooba doing a shoddy job of documenting possible scum roles, also looks town. I'm pretty sure that was him?

I'll have to dig deeper and also internalize the claims and set up possibilities before I can integrate my impressions from isos with the gamestate.

[fferyllt]

:/

Setting my clock.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: Action Dan

I could have missed another vote somewhere in all the last few pages, but I think ZZZX was L-1.

[fferyllt]

ZZZX: PLEASE TELL FFERY THAT THAT HAMMER WAS PREMATURE.

What?

[fferyllt]

I'm sorry. :/

I don't understand how your range works. I saw a post at the top of one of these pages from Bro yelling for someone to hammer.

I should have asked more questions about it yesterday.

[fferyllt]

shurg. Im mostly just annoyed that this happened. Im less sure on zzzx than you or peregrine so i did have a selfish desire to see his flip. but youre right that it's really all the same. I realized that it would be better for town for them to see his flip than mine just to resolve the BP at the least

since now it will make everyone biased and afraid.

Please for the love of mafiascum gods take another look at broseidon

I think it already has. I need to figure out if that makes actual sense tonight.

re bro, ok.

[fferyllt]

^^ That.

Also, if there's anything else critical to the game mechanics I should be aware of, let me know.

[fferyllt]

I've played only one game with him before. we both replaced into a newbie game a few months ago. he was scum. he basically yelled at people voting him and claimed they were voting for no reason, scumread some of them, and iirc claimed that he'd proven his predecessor was town. I did a meta dive for that game and I thought his town play was lame enough to match his play in the newbie game. I was pushing a different lynch on day 1 of that game. I also remember something about him gambiting in games, but I think that was from a discussion in MD.

here's a link to the newbie iso.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

[fferyllt]

I've played only one game with him before. we both replaced into a newbie game a few months ago. he was scum. he basically yelled at people voting him and claimed they were voting for no reason, scumread some of them, and iirc claimed that he'd proven his predecessor was town. I did a meta dive for that game and I thought his town play was lame enough to match his play in the newbie game. I was pushing a different lynch on day 1 of that game. I also remember something about him gambiting in games, but I think that was from a discussion in MD.

here's a link to the newbie iso.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

I'm just quoting you to get your attention. What was up with your hameer yesterday?

part just not understanding the significance of CDB's range thing. but, mostly it was because I woke up at 5 am specifically for this game, but wasn't in any shape to process all the pages that had exploded since the night before. I feel really bad about it, though apparently it wouldn't have mattered anyway because he was blocked.

I'm reviewing some ZZZX meta and going through his iso. I'm probably about halfway done with that.

[fferyllt]

no, I actually skimmed all of the pages in semi-panic mode.

I knew I didn't have a firm grasp on the game, but I did my best to figure out the lay of the game during the time I had, and I specifically asked reck to give me some extra time to catch up when I replaced in. It's a little frustrating from this end, knowing that a few more or different questions on my part, or a little more help catching up on others' part and I could have avoided it.

[fferyllt]

I'm reviewing some ZZZX meta and going through his iso. I'm probably about halfway done with that.

And I'm still about halfway done. :/

[fferyllt]

Had games been claimed at that point?

[fferyllt]

So there was a limited, but damn large list of potential roles at that point. hmm.

[fferyllt]

I don't know if anyone wants to trawl through them too, but here are the three zzzx scumgames I'm looking at:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
- newbie game he and I played (lynched day 1)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - micro (won in lylo)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - another newbie (won in lylo)

I would have liked a larger scum game to compare with this, but I didn't find one.

And four town games:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - Kise's large theme, lynched day 2

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - micro, killed night 2

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - mcro, lynched day 1

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go - large theme, lynched day 3

[fferyllt]

will you please answer bookitty's question?

[fferyllt]

whereas FF's meta-diving on a slot she already seemingly finds scummy looks to me like busy-work.

Day 7 I didn't have time to develop thorough reads. Today, I do.

I read through all the pages, but when I saw that bro was calling for a hammer, I started reading a lot faster. I should have slowed down and realized there was something significant being discussed that I didn't understand, but I was about half awake.

[fferyllt]

I don't know why you're calling it a blind hammer.

[fferyllt]

sigh. that AtE.

I've gone through the games I linked and the thing that shines through his town games are a sort of open, innocent cluelessness. And what shines through his scum games are a sort of manipulative gloaty-ness when he's not under pressure. The kind of pressure he was under in the newbie game we both played breaks the scum persona down, though, which is interesting.

There are several markers in this game that fit his scum play better than his town play. The stuff about being a stronger player in the late game fits the deflective way he handles suspicion as scum. regarding missing that jmj died, I feel like he might have intentionally re-enacted something that he did as town here.

augh.

I'm not at all sure about town-kise, but I feel like the rest of this wagon is town.

VOTE: ZZZX

[fferyllt]

I replaced into this game as a thank you for reck replacing into my mini game. I didn't even look at the slot's posts ahead of time, and I asked for the deadline extension before I even knew I was scum and probably would rather not have one.

And I spent the next 12-18 hours poring through the game looking for claims and night actions so I could figure out what I could get away with claiming from the game my role was from. So I guess i DID need the extension.

it came down to that friendly-neighbor joat or the census taker. And I couldn't imagine any way that riddleton would have waited so long to use the ability and give the results, given how focused people were on whether there were 4 scum or 3. it was go big or go home. and it was scary!

Thanks for the game, reck. It was insanely complicated to figure out. And thanks CDB. you held the torch high and led scum to the win.

[fferyllt]

4burner, I thought you and bookitty both were likely to crack the game open on day 7 and 8 both. I enjoyed playing with you, and I hope to hell we're on the same team when we play again.

[fferyllt]

4burner, I thought you and bookitty both were likely to crack the game open on day 7 and 8 both. I enjoyed playing with you, and I hope to hell we're on the same team when we play again.

I at least hope I scared you when I voted you

Not any more scared than I already was given my options for claiming. I made my decision overnight and figured it would work or it would sink like a rock. The scary part was what would happen afterwards if I were to flip mafia goon, and I had to make my peace with that before I claimed.