So I’m getting banned...

[Persivul]

Not gonna go into why or how because that would be wrong, but suffice it to say it is because I disagree

religiously

morally with other people on this site.
I’d like to say I’m disappointed in this site if this is what it has come to, that any time we disagree with other people on topics like this one that we are verbally abused and then banned for our opinions. If this is really the position mods take, it’s a poor reflection on the site in general, and especially on how you treat others and their opinions. It doesn’t make me sad to be leaving.
Peace folks.

Problem is that you're under the mistaken impression that this is a mafia site that has some discussions on the side.

At this point it's a LGBTQ/progressive/atheist discussion site that has some mafia games on the side.

[Persivul]

idk why we haven't split this forums in actual mafia forums and retired mafia players forums yet

BINGO!

I've thought about suggesting that before but I know it's a waste of time.

[Persivul]

I'm just asking if one could hypothetically hold the first belief while not holding the second belief

Sure. I spend several hours a week playing Fortnite with a gay atheist who is well aware of my beliefs. I don't hang out with him because I hate him. He disagrees with me. He likewise doesn't hate me.

[Persivul]

At least would inspire actual mafia players to go to GD more often

Huh? That's exactly what we

don't

want. If a conservative mafia player sees what's going on in discussion he might quit the site. I left for a year for that reason.

[Persivul]

At least would inspire actual mafia players to go to GD more often

Huh? That's exactly what we

don't

want. If a conservative mafia player sees what's going on in discussion he might quit the site. I left for a year for that reason.

Aren't the loudest liberals all retired mafia players though?

I guess I'm just not understanding your point. We seem to be talking past each other.

[Persivul]

I'm just asking if one could hypothetically hold the first belief while not holding the second belief

Sure. I spend several hours a week playing Fortnite with a gay atheist who is well aware of my beliefs.

I don't hang out with him because I hate him.

He disagrees with me. He likewise doesn't hate me.

???
This was a very confusing post, but I think I understand now.

I see what you mean - to clarify, yes, I hang out with him regularly, which shows that I obviously don't hate him.

I think the difference between people like him and a lot of the LGBT people here is that he doesn't define himself by his sexuality, so he's able to still have a friendship with someone who views his sexuality critically. It's not an affront to the core of his being. It's more a matter of

no two people agree on absolutely everything - this is just one of those things we disagree on.

[Persivul]

the forum has got to get more ok w letting bad people be here or in the end it will either be empty or full of hypocrites

We could start by not calling them "bad".

LOL, exactly what I thought.

[Persivul]

people get so sensitive when people shit on christianity but when the same religion calls

the bedrock of a lot of people's lives

an abomination it's time to grow a thick skin

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Believe it or not, there are LGBT people who don't consider their sexuality to be the bedrock of their lives.

[Persivul]

Furthermore, in all Christian doctrine, literally everyone is a sinner. So from his point of view he absolutely thinks he can disagree with what a person morally does / think they're sinning, and not let it affect his views on someone's humanity (Otherwise he'd hate literally everyone)

The topic of gay sex is the same as every other sin in his eyes. It's just an action to him detached from the person. It's not an identity to him.

Yep.

[Persivul]

I believe that if I can help one closeted kid, one self-hating gay realize that they have value as a person and that the folks who would try to belittle them do not, I will have helped them.

You'd help them more if you helped them realize that they have value as a person...and so do the folks who would try to belittle them.

[Persivul]

just to close — i dont wanna ban them i just wanna be allowed to call their views trash and get mad at them about it

You're already allowed to do that.

[Persivul]

Yeah and I completely agree. I am just saying that we didn't really save any animals. We just stopped future animals from existing.

Yeah I've said that for decades. If we stop eating beef and dairy, that doesn't mean there will be herds of cows roaming free and happy. There just won't be any cows anymore.

[Persivul]

I see this "why is gay ur personality" strawman everywhere and its p shit tbh

Yeah that's a convincing argument.

If something never exists, it hasnt been wronged. Since farm animals live to suffer, it is better that they dont live in the first place. The best thing we can do for certain animals is to stop breeding them.

Yeah, I agree. I gave up on veal a long time ago, and now I'm going to organic/free range as much as possible.

[Persivul]

it's literally the person you commit to devoting your life to. don't you have a wife? what is she to you?

My friend is single and not really looking to commit to anyone for life. You're dodging the point.

[Persivul]

maybe persival is some aromantic sociopath and just can't relate to the possibility of falling in love with someone and centering his life around them
or maybe he thinks all that happens in some sort of vaccuum absent of sexuality or passion
or maybe he just denies the possibility of anything wholesome like that happening between two people of the same sex

Or maybe I'm capable of considering that a person has a complex set of traits, has intrinsic value and is worthy of respect, despite disagreeing morally on some of those traits. My friend can do that too.

[Persivul]

i think the vast majority of people treat their capacity for romantic love and then their romantic partners as part of the bedrock of their lives. it's just that for straight people the contribution of their sexual orientation to it all is in the background and unconsidered. gay people are uniquely confronted with conflict from society, their friends, their own families when they try to achieve happiness through the avenue that comes naturally to straight people. and then when they speak up about that conflict, they've "made being gay their personality". it's bullshit.

Then why am I able to have this friendship? You're ignoring the fact that counterexamples to your position actually exist. A straight Christian and a gay atheist can be friends. This dispels the argument that considering homosexual conduct to be immoral necessarily means such person hates homosexuals.

[Persivul]

jesus dude can you stop with the tokenism? i'm sure your friend wouldn't appreciate it

LOL - you think you know my friend better than I do, because all gays are the same or something.

[Persivul]

i grew up in the american south
i'm friends with loads of bigoted people
that doesn't suddenly mean they aren't bigoted people

Well, yeah, actually it does:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/bigot?s=t

a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion

[Persivul]

you are still obstinately/intolerantly devoted to your own opinions and prejudices even though you have a gay friend

No, a friend that has values which go against my opinions is proof that I'm not obstinate/intolerant regarding those opinions.

[Persivul]

gosh what a mediocre human being you are

Yeah, just like you.

[Persivul]

just like every other person does.

Except this is wrong. There are people who espouse white nationalism who wouldn't hang out with you, families who never take their children back, etc. Those people fit the definition of bigot. People who disagree with you, yet desire to spend time with you, clearly don't.

[Persivul]

do you consider me obstinate about my opinions? i think i plainly am and yet all these anecdotes are true

You argue that opposing views should be tolerated here rather than being banned, so while you're a bit of a dick at times, I wouldn't call you a bigot.

[Persivul]

so you think someone can be a white nationalist - essentially a nazi - but not a bigot if they're ok socializing with people of color

Obviously, by the main definitions of bigot. Actually in that specific situation I'd question the depth of their convictions. Wouldn't you?

[Persivul]

I assume you guys think Milo is a white nationalist, despite the fact that he's married to a black man. I have to disagree.

[Persivul]

i think that maybe you have a comparatively exclusive a definition of "intolerance"
you seem really committed to the idea that the only way to express intolerance is through non-socialization
but i think believing mixed race people shouldn't be brought into existence is intolerance all on its own

I'm sure that you have a faulty definition of intolerance.

He permitted you on his bus. An obstinately intolerant person would not have permitted you on his bus, and would have quit if his employer forced him to.

[Persivul]

Duplicate post

[Persivul]

What would you call them then Persivul?

People with differing positions.

[Persivul]

do you type all this with a straight face persival

No, more of a troubled face. I don't think demonization of opponents is good for society.

[Persivul]

Someone isn’t magically not a bigot if they don’t make a big social scene that risks their job every time they’re confronted with what they’re bigoted about.

By the definitions I posted, you're incorrect. A person who thinks something is wrong, yet tolerates it, isn't a bigot.

You can weaken that definition if you like, but then you'll end up with most everyone posting here being a bigot, which is fine too.

[Persivul]

Persivul, by your definition, members of the KKK are not bigoted because they attempt to stay anonymous and wouldn’t quit their jobs if a black person walked into it.

The KKK has done lynchings, burned crosses, fought desegregation, etc. They're clearly intolerant and fit the bigot definition.

[Persivul]

Any over/under on the time until I'm banned?

[Persivul]

I wonder if Persivul sincerely believes all white people deep down would prefer to live apart from black people, or that all straight people are made uncomfortable by gay people

Why do you say "sincerely"? That implies that I've stated those beliefs, which I haven't.

[Persivul]

ah yes the inevitable result of every conversation with persival on mafiascum.net
the somehow always surprising revelation that he's just an idiot

No, the problem is that you guys want to paint the world as black or white, while I acknowledge shades of gray.

[Persivul]

Oh My God Persivul found something I've posted at him that he feels like he can easily take down through Cold Hard Logic and is now willing to acknowledge it

I'm correcting a misrep. Aside from that, I'm not interested in discussion with you. Claim that I'm afraid of your brilliance or whatever. Doesn't bother me.

[Persivul]

No. You said that if the bus driver allowed him on the bus, and didn’t quit his job if he was forced to, then he was not a bigot. Many, many KKK members fit that definition but are ideologically OK with lynching black people and burning crosses in their yards.

By your own strict definition, KKK members who are not out and open without their mask on are not bigots, because they know mixed races existing are wrong, but “tolerate” it in public.

Annnnd....you're a moron. Bye-bye.

[Persivul]

I guess for the sake of clarity, is there a line between "I'd prefer people not be gay/gay-married, because god" and " I hate gays"?

That's horrifying but not really what I asked? I'm not necessarily asking if these people exists, I'm just asking if one could hypothetically hold the first belief while not holding the second belief or is the former just a euphemism for the latter?

@ankamius: As a reminder, this is what I'm discussing.

Would I prefer that people not be gay because god? That's a weird way of wording it, but if I'm getting the gist right, that fits me reasonably well.

Does that mean that I hate gays? I'm saying no, as evidenced by the fact that I play Fortnite regularly with a gay person, and we sometimes email each other about other things. A person generally doesn't play games with people he HATES.

This is really simple. It's only an issue because some here want to demonize those of differing beliefs and are trying to justify that despite clear evidence to the contrary.

[Persivul]

Being calm is not the same thing as being civil. Just because Persivul isn't swearing doesn't make what he's saying any less awful to experience. But then a cornerstone of the gay experience is being told to smile at someone when they say they disagree about your existence.

Which, for those playing at home, is an opinion Persivul has and is ok just saying.

EDIT: I hate auto correct

No, it is not my opinion that you don't have a right to existence. Please stop misrepping me.

[Persivul]

This is not misrepresentation. You have stated you believe gay people should not exist.

Where? ETA: If you can show me, I'll gladly retract.

[Persivul]

Would I prefer that people not be gay because god? That's a weird way of wording it, but if I'm getting the gist right, that fits me reasonably well.

And that in no way says that I don't think they don't have a right to exist.

Additionally you've repeatedly said you disagree with homosexuality. Actually what else can that possibly mean?

Just what it says. It in no way says that I don't have a right to exist.

I similarly disagree with heterosexual adulterers. Similarly, it doesn't mean that I don't think they have a right to exist.

Thieves, heroin users, drunk drivers, liars...the list goes on, and includes plenty of things I'm guilty of myself. I disagree with those things, but it doesn't mean I tihhnk they don't have a right to exist.

You're reading in what you want, because you're the type who enjoys being a martyr.

[Persivul]

I assume he's thinking of something like sexual abstinence

No, I don't require my friend to be abstinent. Gays can do as they please. I think it's sin. So what? I'm live and let live. Plenty of gays are as well. They don't all want to think that a whole lot of people hate them and want them wiped out.

[Persivul]

ITT Persivul compares consensual love between two gay men to drug use, theft, illegal activity, and adultury. Neat. He also appears to think that gays have collectively deluded themselves into thinking homophobes exist?

What sorts of things are Christians comparable to in your opinion? If you're honest, I'll bet it's worse than anything I've said.

[Persivul]

I think I've learned one of the divides, is that one thinks it's an intrinsic identity similar to race and gender. The other thinks it's something like lifestyle disassociated from the person.

Probably safer to go with the viewpoint of people who actually experience it.

Problem is that the people who actually experience it don't all agree.

[Persivul]

I mean I am sure Persivul tolerates gay people as long as they don't talk about it, don't kiss in public, don't hold hands, don't have children, don't go to parent teacher conferences, don't make a big deal out of it when he says something homophobic, don't try to put their relationship on par with a straight marriage, and don't make it a part of media.

I have a gay couple as clients. In meetings with them they wore what appeared to be wedding rings. Didn't bother me.

When the IRS made married filing joint available to gay couples married under state laws, I called them to ask if they were legally married (they weren't). Didn't bother me.

[Persivul]

Oh thank god Persivul was willing to comply with the law whew. He didn't even ask them to remove their wedding rings. I think by his definition, this proves he's not homophobic.

That, along with my friendship with a gay person, shows that your guesses about me are mostly wrong.