Miccro 821: Welcome Micc Mafia! (D1)

[PenguinPower]

I'm an alt of Kison.

I know, I know, totally shocking. Ice cream sucks.

VOTE: 2 718281828459

[PenguinPower]

Your PM.
Should have a player name in it.
That is your alt.
I am quadz08.
Penguin is Kison.
Who are you?

Um...no. I thought we were just joking. Why would you claim your Role Pm?

[PenguinPower]

So far it's looking like ListMod name is NAI though. That's good.

[PenguinPower]

You've never played a game where flavor could have an impact in terms of assessing a role or alignment? Really?

[PenguinPower]

How does my thinking that flavor could impact the above make me scum?

[PenguinPower]

I fail the see the benefit of listing which mod we are, other than for scummy rolefishing purposes.

This must be my scum buddy, right Inferno?

[PenguinPower]

VOTE: MafMen

[PenguinPower]

2. Because you saying that divulging meaningless flavor is scummy is an inherently scummy statement.

Where did I say this?

[PenguinPower]

Explain how you arrived at this conclusion.

All mods listed so far have been Micro mods. No differentiation.

[PenguinPower]

ISO the mod if you want to find VCs quickly. That's a rather nitpicky thing to state.

[PenguinPower]

Not sure why you assumed it was all Micro Listmods based on that. Also...we can't all be Micro Listmods.

I'm done talking about flavor though. Waiting on Inferno's answer.

[PenguinPower]

Just so we all know, Penguin put MafMen to L-1.

And? Why did you feel the need to call it out since my vote was the very next post after the vote count? What do you make of me putting him to L-1?

[PenguinPower]

VOTE: PENGUIN

Never trust a penguin.

I'm a cute anime penguin though...you can trust me. I promise.

[PenguinPower]

Prefer to wait until 2 718281828459 answers my questions to answer that.

[PenguinPower]

Why did you vote for Mafmen?

I like wagons as a vehicle to move on from RVS. I find they are good starting points to generate content from players beyond "voting for the lulz." I also like to use VCA as a large portion of my figuring things out.

I called it out because we are in a 7p game and did not want someone to accihammer.

Why are you concerned about a derphammer? This isn't the Newbie queue, and my vote was literally right below the votecount.

Penguin, why did you wait to answer bill? I might not have been online and you would have waited for quite a while.

Because I didn't want my answer to affect your response to my questions. We have 14 days phases...who cares if we have to wait a bit?

(Also, especially early on, I find it easier to make content when I have something directed at me to respond to, or something I can actively pursue ((which is not that common)). This happens with any alignment.)

[PenguinPower]

I've never seen it happen. Only times I have seen have truly been accidents by town.

Thoughts on Inferno and 2 718281828459?

p-edit

Why is 2 718281828459 a townread?

[PenguinPower]

I really don’t have a response for you @Penguin because a) I wasn’t completely serious with that read and 2) someone else implied what I accused you of, and I just mentally linked it with you

Not a fan of this...

Who implied what you accused me of? I couldn't find it.

[PenguinPower]

like maf could quickhammer and claim it was an accident or something

Also, what do you make of the fact that everyone has posted while you have been at L-1 now and that didn't happen?

[PenguinPower]

Here Penguin
This is the shading I’m talking about
I find it ironic that you actually quoted this and yet still couldn’t find it

Do you mean that bill shaded your actions? Because it came across as you were saying someone else implied that what I did was scummy, not that someone else was implying what you did was scummy.

I get the latter from bill's post.

[PenguinPower]

like maf could quickhammer and claim it was an accident or something

Also, what do you make of the fact that everyone has posted while you have been at L-1 now and that didn't happen?

that scum dont want to take the heat incase people didnt believe them?

Usually the reason it doesn't happen. That, or the wagon is scum.

Care to answer my other questions?

[PenguinPower]

Thoughts on Inferno then?

[PenguinPower]

He never voted you. He unvoted me.

[PenguinPower]

Absent you voting me without understanding the votecount (hey! remember when you were worried about the derphammer on you...that's how they happen)...

So, specifically, your thoughts on:

I really don’t have a response for you @Penguin because a) I wasn’t completely serious with that read and 2) someone else implied what I accused you of, and I just mentally linked it with you

p-edit

So, why did you townread him to begin with?

[PenguinPower]

I mean, we're 4 pages in...but...sure.

Spoiler: Context

Since discussion needs to happen:

Your PM.
Should have a player name in it.
That is your alt.
I am quadz08.
Penguin is Kison.
Who are you?

Um...no. I thought we were just joking. Why would you claim your Role Pm?

So far it's looking like ListMod name is NAI though. That's good.

Scum.
Why would flavor ever be AI? And what is so wrong with claiming it?
VOTE: Penguin

1. No.
2. Because you saying that divulging meaningless flavor is scummy is an inherently scummy statement.
3. Yes.

2. Because you saying that divulging meaningless flavor is scummy is an inherently scummy statement.

Where did I say this?

I feel kind of stupid now
But discussion is happening so
I really don’t have a response for you

@Penguin

because a) I wasn’t completely serious with that read and 2) someone else implied what I accused you of, and I just mentally linked it with you
Sorry
UNVOTE:

Will get to this later, I’m going to see Christopher Robin

[PenguinPower]

Can we all take a minute to appreciate how bad I am at this game?

You did fine in your Newbies. I'm not liking the appeal here.

Thoughts on MafMen?

[PenguinPower]

Fair. Hope the movie was good.

Talk tomorrow.

[PenguinPower]

Thoughts on what horrordude said about you? Because, those were my initial thoughts as well.

UNVOTE:

[PenguinPower]

PenguinPower: Hey, did you know someone almost accihammered? The posts have several fallacies but I cannot find anything really scummy here. 4

They didn't almost "accihammered" if you think they are scum. Given your read on Inferno, that seems to be the case.

Also, feel free to point out any fallacies in my posts instead of making a sweeping statement. Hard to respond to those, and I don't think that I have made any fallacious statements.

[PenguinPower]

Meh. 271 brings up a good point about 2 votes being RVS. Not necessarily real "pressure," in my opinion.

Where did I say "pressure?" I said "generating content." Do you deny that the wagon has directly resulted in that?

I've seen it happen, but besides that, if a derphammer had happened, how is that beneficial?

It's not, nor did I say it was. The small risk of a derphammer is worth its purpose. Do you find it scummy? Towny? AI at all? What was the point of this question?

[PenguinPower]

I don't necessarily believe the wagon itself was what caused him to start posting, as he was due for a post soon anyway. And pressure is practically synonymous with generating content, so let's not pretend otherwise.

I didn't say the wagon caused him to start posting. It did direct the course of the conversation out of RVS and into more serious discussion. Do you disagree?

Important for my understanding...have you played on any alts, or was your last game in 2011?

-I did not find it inconsistent or especially scummy, necessarily.

So you did find it scummy. Could you specify why?

[PenguinPower]

Still trying to decide between whether Inferno is actually dense, or a scum trying to play obv-dumb.

I would suggest skimming his Newbie games. I think it's the latter.

[PenguinPower]

Thanks. I think your view is genuine.

[PenguinPower]

someone help?????

Post in the Help Forum but do not reference any ongoing game.

[PenguinPower]

Create one.

[PenguinPower]

Second, most of the fallacies were about how you handled me stating in an informative way that someone was at L-1.

Point out the post(s) specifically. I'm not seeing it.

[PenguinPower]

I'm waiting on some answers to questions, and I'm usually low activity on weekends.

Anything in particular you want to discuss?

[PenguinPower]

Penguin, do you think there's scum motivation to pointing out a L-1 vote in a micro?

I think there could be scum motivation in pointing it out regardless of game type. Could be a/the scum buddy, and there is worry around a derp or quickhammer (this would be even more prominent in a micro). Could want to try and use it as an opportunity to get towncred for simply pointing it out or should a hammer happen. In my mind, I've made a note that 2 718281828459 and MafMen could possibly be tied together for later reference.

Which is one of the reasons I’m finding you Town this game, because you have a very genuine grasp on the game so far.

How are you reading me?

@Penguin: OK, I guess I misattributed a post to you. I thought you made either this point twice or you got off-put twice by my MafMen-at-L-1 comment.

Both you and Inferno have done this now...I'm not impressed.

It must have been someone else.

Who?

Not much seemed to happen while I was away.

-Inferno's posts are still hot garbage. Worth noting that he was active yesterday, yet didn't feel the need to post that day. Almost wondering if he wants to die.
-I still have mixed feelings on 2.718
-Mafmen's town read is getting stronger.
-Really wish Alonzo in particular would post more. I had a town read on him earlier, but that's waned a bit.
-I'll muse on horror suspicions at some point. Almost certainly before this day is over.

Confirming, since I am absent from this list, but you still have a townread on me?

horrordude is my only town read at this point. Please step it up guys.

[PenguinPower]

VOTE: 2 718281828459

Alonzo, get your vote off me and do something with it plskthx.

[PenguinPower]

I think it's possible.

[PenguinPower]

Why? Does one matter more to you? Are either AI to you?

[PenguinPower]

Replace out.

you got it boss

Honestly though. If you're apathetic towards the game, you either try to do something to get your mind back in it, or you should replace out. It's not fair to the rest of the players if you aren't able/willing to play the game.

It's obvious he replaced out prior to this post.

[PenguinPower]

I think this game is hanging in the balance and I'm pretty excited to see what happens next personally!

You going to contribute in some way?

[PenguinPower]

My hesitation on Inferno was mainly that Inferno formed without a counterwagon (though, admittedly in a Micro, there is less of a chance of a strong competing wagon - but there was nothing else except for Alonozo's non-vote vote on me). I'm actually fine with either lynch, but prefer 2 718 at this point. If MafMan is replacing out, I want some more content from his replacement before we actually lynch.

Non-game related: Why are people referring to 2 718 as "E!"?

[PenguinPower]

Thought it was a math thing given the "!"

[PenguinPower]

^
pagetop ++ Ari.

HA!

[PenguinPower]

UC can be town. Thank god I have another town read.

[PenguinPower]

UC broke the thread. I so want to fix it...

[PenguinPower]

i dont even know how that happened. really.......:p

this is called barely back to the game after a few months and shouldnt be trying to do fancy long posts like that

Broken nested spoiler tag. Ari can fix it...but he won't like you afterward.

[PenguinPower]

The replace out is NAI. For both slots.

[PenguinPower]

I mean, if you want stats associated, given all players (newbies/SEs/ICs) over the course of Matrix6, there was only a variation of 6% in replace outs between scum and town. The Doctor PR was more likely to replace out rate than VT.

n=473 games

But sure, disagree.

[PenguinPower]

Did it consider the specific manner in which they replaced out?
Does this measure the specific day in which they replaced out?
Did this measure how close to the end of a given day phase they replaced out?
Did this measure games across the site as a whole, or specifically smaller/micro games?

Statistics are misleading sometimes, you know?

So much for being done discussing. I'll entertain then:

- No, but please explain how the manner in which each replacing out was AI. The statements you commented on so far don't really read AI.
- No, but please explain how replacing out D1 is AI.
- No, but please explain how replacing out in the middle of D1 is AI.
- Newbie games are Micro games by definition...so, smaller/micro games.

[PenguinPower]

pagetop ++1

Suck it, Ari.

[PenguinPower]

I want 2 718 to finish his ISO reads on everyone, and I'd like a bit more from Alonzo on his stances.

I doubt both 2 718 and Inferno are scum together given vote trends, but it could be possible.

[PenguinPower]

One of them is most likely scum though.

[PenguinPower]

I am leaning towards one scum rather two. Two puts us LyLo tomorrow if we mislynch today, which seems harsh.

I'd be surprised if there was 1 scum in a 7 player game given known 5- and 7-player setups. There's probably two with balance from Town PRs.

[PenguinPower]

I'm going to let you finish your catch up before commenting. When do you think you will be done?

[PenguinPower]

Sorry not sorry Ari.

[PenguinPower]

my vote seemed to spark the penguin into life at the time as I recall..

You have bad recollection.

[PenguinPower]

Quickfire pressure from 2.7? What was that?

At the time (on page 3 and IRL D2) Inferno was voting me and you made an RVS vote to which I quipped a response. I mean, you think what you want, but I'm going to disagree.

[PenguinPower]

I am lost, busy, and unsure who to read next. I think all my reads are out of date, so that means I will have 6 people to read.

You still haven't provided all of them, and now you are saying you need to re-read everything?

How about a quick summary of your former reads before you start that...

[PenguinPower]

I'll bite.

vote Penguin

You vote a townread with a scumread and all you say is "I'll bite"?

Explain.

[PenguinPower]

@Rob14

Could you do a quick summary on why I am all the scum. Because the things that I see you point out have either been twisted into new context or are not scummy.

I find it out that you think the person who got us out of RVS and has been the primary cause of content generation is scum. No scum motivation for me to do any of that. Definitely no scum motivation for me to point out there was no counterwagon to you - I probably would have just hopped on.

I'm waffling between bad town play because of extended absence and bad scum push because both Inferno and 2.7 are scum. I think you summarizing your case would help me understand that better.

[PenguinPower]

Penguin definitely comes off worse of these two here, though. After being the initial pusher on my slot, and my slot admittedly being terribly scummy so far, they're switching to a completely random person, not giving any reasons, and not even admitting to a scum read on that slot. It doesn't make any sense.

For example...the above is a false post.

My hesitation on Inferno was mainly that Inferno formed without a counterwagon (though, admittedly in a Micro, there is less of a chance of a strong competing wagon - but there was nothing else except for Alonozo's non-vote vote on me). I'm actually fine with either lynch, but prefer 2 718 at this point.

I had already said I didn't like 2.7's play and was not asked to reinforce.

[PenguinPower]

You shouldn't need to be asked to explain your reads. You should do it because it helps town.

Agree to disagree. I don't think vomitting up your entire opinion on everything is beneficial. I think it can actually be detrimental in the aspect of giving scum a road map. You should be transparent, but not without need.

So far, Penguin has been asking a bunch of questions while not taking any stances and refusing to answer questions directed at them as long as possible.

False. I have been asking a bunch of questions because that's how you get content generate and players to take stands. I have also been transparent that so far, I only have a few town reads. I have stated who those are. I have also stated who my scum reads are. I never refused to answer questions - I did delay a response once, and I gave my reasoning for doing so.

Penguin started the push on Inferno, but rather than acknowledging that, they're now saying they're following horrordude. Classic scum trying to avoid looking like the one who led the charge.

Twsited out of context. I never said I was following horrordude. I asked for Inferno's thoughts on what he stated because I believed the same thing. Also note that I did not "start the push on Inferno." I was pushing 2.7 and Inferno both. We had just gotten out of RVS and, again, I was/am trying to sort slots.

You've also repeatedly asked people for their reads on you and reacted poorly to pressure. For instance, this is some light OMGUS.

I've asked a couple of times for people to clarify their read on me and stated why. That's not scummy, it helps establish stances and sort. I've hardly been pressured, so that's complete bunk. Not sure how asking for clarification as to the point of a rhetorical question is OMGUS. (btw: OMGUS isn't AI).

Since you got the wagon on my slot started, you've since disappeared into the shadows, been quick to disclaim any credit for that wagon, and generally floated by asking some questions without posting any thoughts or trying to convince anyone of your reads. All of that generally comes from scum.

You actually believe any of that? I have disappeared into the shadows despite being the most active poster. I've asked some questions without posting any thoughts despite stating my reads on most everyone in the game and used my thoughts to collapse your wagon because I was concerned...all of which I stated.

I still don't know if your hard push on me comes from bad town or scum, but you seem to be attributing scum-intent to my actions and town-intent to others for the same actions...so I'm going to lean scum.

[PenguinPower]

So it's very important to the town that we establish stances from all players ... except yours. Yeah, I buy that. Totally.

Again. I've given my stances. If you have read the game you would see that.

Show me exactly where you "collapsed my wagon"

My hesitation on Inferno was mainly that Inferno formed without a counterwagon (though, admittedly in a Micro, there is less of a chance of a strong competing wagon - but there was nothing else except for Alonozo's non-vote vote on me). I'm actually fine with either lynch, but prefer 2 718 at this point.

Also, Penguin made a good point about there not being any attempt at a CW, and the more I look at it the less I like the fact that e only did 2 ISO reads and has refused to analyze any other slots.

Inferno's most pro-town post just happens to be asking for a replacement...

unvote

for now.

What's the scum motivation in pointing that out and voting 2.718? If you are town and I scum, you were an easy mislynch.

I'm done responding to you for now since you seem to be locked into a tunnel, and the others can easily read how your argument is wrong.

I still want 2.718 to at least give his new reads on everyone (prefer the former as well) since apparently they have changed, and Alonzo to as well, but I have a better feeling now that 2.718 is scum given the resistance to the wagon versus the others that have formed today, as well as his backtracking.

[PenguinPower]

What's the scum motivation in pointing that out and voting 2.718? If you are town and I scum, you were an easy mislynch.

[PenguinPower]

Penguin started the pressure on Inferno and then literally credited horror with the push and wagon.

Show me exactly where I did this.

I literally responded to this crap 10 posts ago.

[PenguinPower]

Like...how does one move out of RVS and start trying to form opinions on slots without pushing? I've pushed most players in this game.

This is why you are tunneling. You are shifting the content to fit your narrative instead of forming your narrative from the content. Also, lulz you think you are a spam poster.

[PenguinPower]

Seriously taking a step back now...

[PenguinPower]

Damn.

[PenguinPower]

I'll bite.

vote Penguin

You vote a townread with a scumread and all you say is "I'll bite"?

Explain.

I'm not asking just for the sake of asking. Explain.

[PenguinPower]

I don't think we should Lynch 2.17 today.

Penguin whos your second choice for scum?

Why don't you think we should lynch 2.178?

As stated previously, I'm fine with Inferno/Rob slot but prefer 2.178.

At least one is scum, but after Rob coming in with his hard push against me, it's possible both are and he was trying to derail the wagon.

[PenguinPower]

What is bad about that post?

[PenguinPower]

Bill's explanation for his vote on me after townreading me all day was underwhelming. How was horror's progression not natural?

That said, Bill scumreading both 2.718 and you keep him far out of my lynchpool.

[PenguinPower]

Why are you explaining horror's progression instead of horror?

I'm not sure what this means.

[PenguinPower]

I get that, but I don't get "horror's progression" instead of "horror."

[PenguinPower]

it's possible both are

You think E! busses his partner nonstop d1?

It's possible.

[PenguinPower]

Translation: Why are you explaining where my progression came from instead of me?

Oh. Because he specifically referred to the "evolution" not being natural. I assumed "evolution" meant progression.

[PenguinPower]

Because that was your response to me when I asked why you thought it was a bad post. I disagreed.

Should I leave it at that and not press further?

[PenguinPower]

^

Ari....

[PenguinPower]

I would actually like a summary of all of his reads. He promised it on Tuesday, and it's been post-to-post a bit, but the summary for all would be good.

Same for 2.718. Don't expect that to actually happen though.

[PenguinPower]

whats happened to the penguin anyway?

As previously stated, I'm low activity on weekends. More so since this is a holiday weekend. I'll catch up in the morning (~12-14 hours).

[PenguinPower]

there are lots of small NAI posts mixed in

If they are NAI, then why do they impact how you read my alignment?

(By the way, 372 links to the wrong game -- you mean Newbie 1876, right? Where I was scum and lost terribly?)

No, I linked the correct game.

it's possible both are

You think E! busses his partner nonstop d1?

It's possible.

I was asked if I thought you bus your partner nonstop. I linked I game where I successfully bussed my partner the entire game to a win to show that it is possible.

would I choose the person who's the target of the biggest wagon and actively try to stop that wagon? That would be terrible play.

Can I interest anyone in a last minute Penguin wagon?

That's the post I see as the start of the 2.7 wagon, rather than Penguin's lone vote. I don't see that as a viable time to bus when it could kill the wagon on me.

How convenient for your tunnel. I started the Inferno wagon without voting, but I didn't start the 2.718 wagon despite actually starting it.

1. I asked the questions because I realized that I needed to start being proactive and try to ask for information and not just sit back and let everyone else do all the questioning.

Because you realized you were about to be lynched?

So, nothing has changed for me. Can we get intent on 2.718 plskthx?

Alonzo/UC: Bill is not being lynched today, so get off that wagon. Choose between Rob and 2.718.

[PenguinPower]

it's possible both are

You think E! busses his partner nonstop d1?

It's possible.

I was asked if I thought you bus your partner nonstop. I linked I game where I successfully bussed my partner the entire game to a win to show that it is possible.

Do you think that e, as a newer player that is not as good at this game as you are, would bus a partner in a (likely 5:2) Micro for all of Day 1 when there would be other mislynch opportunities around?

The game I linked was my 3rd game and 1st scum game on site. I’m not removing the possibility right now.

[PenguinPower]

You got it right in the end.....

[PenguinPower]

Confused as to why 2.718 didn’t use his dayvig as a claim and then prove it.

[PenguinPower]

I am never wrong.

Shut it.

[PenguinPower]

I think this was easily my strongest town game (I've been notoriously bad as town in the past), save for the 1v1s with bill.

You were definitely my strongest townread from early on through the end. That made it much easier for me when trying to sort others.