Micro 1051 | Minimalist Micro Normal | Postgame

[NorwegianboyEE]

Ugh.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Sry but whenever i see mafia players be like: "but why i do i need to make an decision?" i start to get really annoyed.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Like what r u even doing here if you aren’t gonna do shit.

[NorwegianboyEE]

That was referring to S_S for not voting btw.

[NorwegianboyEE]

ill self hammer after ircher writes final thoughts do

want to give him a last chance to redeem himself then im out of this shit show

Damn Pooky, who defecated in ur cereal today.

[NorwegianboyEE]

That's not very supportive is it.

Don't self-hammer if you are town... please?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I'm not really willing to bet the entire game that Toogeloo flips mafia here.

I think there's a decent chance town are death tunneling me for shit reasons so this game is never going to be winnable as long as I'm alive.

and I'd rather die here than be a walking mislim at elo

I think you're just justifying your own exit from the game rather than seriously arguing self-hammering as town will be in favour of towns wincon.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Why do you now think Toog is town?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Why?

Picking a side forces you to make a commitment and that commitment in turn associates you with others. That's valuable information down the road even if it may not be in the immediate future.

Also
UNVOTE:
No self-hammering please, especially not before Smart commits to a decision here.

I think if Tracer was scum he would have just hammered himself instantly if he really meant it. The options are that either he is just town or he is scum that is AtEing hard to stay alive.
I'm leaning towards the first option being more likely.

[NorwegianboyEE]

RCE and Wall have both fallen off a bit recently, and they are not slots i traditionally view as doing that if they were town here.
Where you two at right now?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Well this is the first time i played with Wall, but y'all get what i mean. They were active at start, now not anymore.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I’ve thought this over and although i’m neither confident on Toog or Tracer, i’m leaning voting Toog for the simple fact that i think town!Tracer is more valuable to keep in the game than an eventual town!Toogelo. So if worst case scenario and Toog does flip town i’d take that over flipping town!Tracer.
This also presents an interesting dilemma for players currently not voting. It’ll be 3v3 wagons.
VOTE: Toogeloo

I hated this post because town!me is not going to be very useful tomm if someone town votes me so i dunt even understand this

I townread you so i don't see why it's a good idea for you to get elimmed at any point. I also don't see why you think it's inevitable you get voted tommorow, there is no logic behind that thinking.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think you are missing out on a vital point in your thinking, but if i explain it it will be made too obvious for the mafia team and so lose it's meaning.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Anyway i'm not voting you today.
Who is the most likely to flip scum right now in your opinion.

[NorwegianboyEE]

like your mindset feels like "if this is tvt then we should kill tooge cuz town tracer is better"

like thats just mindboggling to me

if this is tvt we shouldnt kill either of us

I think you're misrepresenting me a bit, i'm describing why "worst case scenario" of voting Toog is better than "worst case scenario" of voting you because i view you as an more active and solvey town player.
If you disagree with this and think Toogeloo would be an stronger town player than you then by all mean debate me on that.
But in the end, i'm voting Toog because i believe there is a chance they are mafia. Otherwise i obviously would not vote there.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If i was scum i would have just voted you earlier.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I probably would enjoy that. True.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Magical vibe reading

[NorwegianboyEE]

I don't see why Wallflower would push me this hard if this is a TvT conflict

I don't get this btw.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I don't see why Wallflower would push me this hard if this is a TvT conflict

I don't get this btw.

if me/tooge r tvt, mafia dont have a reason to be invested in which of us dies

If i was scum here and could choose to vote you out over Toog i would do it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

No, I don't think it's the foregone conclusion you are making it out to be. There will be plenty of time for discussion and reconsideration.

Precisely.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Seriously Tracer, is all u gonna do at end of today cry about the possibility of being mislimmed tommorow if we lim town.
That's... dumb.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Seriously Tracer, is all u gonna do at end of today cry about the possibility of being mislimmed tommorow if we lim town.
That's... dumb.

I am not crying

I am assessing the risk profile and making a rational play to increase our EV

I was assuming you were being emotional and thus decreasing your own logical capability.
The fact that you apparently thought about it logically is weird to me.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Seriously Tracer, is all u gonna do at end of today cry about the possibility of being mislimmed tommorow if we lim town.
That's... dumb.

I am not crying

I am assessing the risk profile and making a rational play to increase our EV

I was assuming you were being emotional and thus decreasing your own logical capability.
The fact that you apparently thought about it logically is weird to me.

I don't get emotional about games that I don't feel connected to.

Well i'm sorry about that.
I'm having fun though.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If Tracer town i feel it makes Wall pretty sus, because all they done today is be like "Vote Tracer, everything will make sense once you do "

[NorwegianboyEE]

I'm still ok with voting Toog tho tbh.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I don't really see this as TvT at all. Assuming town!you i really want to kill Toog here.
Also Tracer, i sincerely hope you aren't talking yourself into thinking i'm scum after everything i've done in this game, cus i'm not.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think i'm better as a serial killer or arsonist. But they aren't in the game so we good.

[NorwegianboyEE]

It’s an entirely different mentality.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Not that i meant what i said as a great point, but SK can scum hunt for real and doesn’t need to think about partner so big diff.

[NorwegianboyEE]

So where u at right now? I thought we were on the same page with our reads but i guess you just started scumreading me for… defending you? Really?
Like i’m trying to understand your mindset. So you think i am scum and decided to not vote you but instead Toog because i wanted to pocket you for later and my townread on you is fake because you don’t trust town!me to have good gut reads. Is that it?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think it’s vital to argue about these sorts of things early be4 deadline makes things hectic.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Everyone is in such a bad mood today.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I like that you are thinking outside of the box though Toog.
Now you’re thinking with portals!

[NorwegianboyEE]

Norwe has been defending me for two days now and I'm not actually sure Town!Him defends me this hard because I have absolutely rekt him as scum in multiple games and I'm not sure he can reliably townread me to the point of hard defending me.

I feel like he's using me as a sort of shield - like as long as town votes are stuck on me [Ircher, Duckie, Wallflower] those votes aren't going to be going elsewhere you keep a shield alive because it attracts attention and keeps people from voting you or your partner - if your shield ever gets yeeted, you look good for having hard defended Tracer!town and you gain thread clout/control.

Pretty sure if i point to previous scum games i've had you'll see that i as scum prefer to just kill anyone that's E-1. Like my play isn't as big brain as you are suggesting. Where i'm like "Ah yes, i'll pull the extremely risky move of trying to pocket "Player that i view as a threat to me, whom i know is capable of turning their reads around for miniscule reasons and is thus therefore a much better player to just kill if given the opportunity" so i can in the next day... idk, keep them around for no reason? Instead of propagating a gamestate with much simpler players to have around that i can much more easily manipulate?
Like ur view of my play is completely incompitable with how i actually play. Which i'm wondering is because you genuinely view it this way or you are just making shit up to see if people buy into it and start to scumread me for playing into an "scum meta" that is wrong.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Actually that's wrong. My play IS bigger brain that you are suggesting. And that is precisely why if this was an scum!Norwee/town!Tracer/Town!Toog situation as you are suggesting. That i would hammer a stake through your heart the moment it was possible. And it was VERY possible.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I'm starting to wonder if you actually just bad.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Cus i don't buy you actually scumread me for "paranoia" here.
VOTE: Tracer

[NorwegianboyEE]

Like this just some opportunist shit here, i'm going out of my way to see good intentions from you, and you twisting my words in an very evil way that is making me PUKE.

[NorwegianboyEE]

it actually makes absolutely 0 sense for Scum!Me to want to yeet Town!norwee who has been hard defending me for 2 days now

if I am scum and I have pocketed norwee!town so hard he is defending me two days in a row, why would I suddenly readflip on him? It makes very little sense for my survival.

He should know this.

ESPECIALLY when my readflip is conditioned on me getting myself yeeted today FIRST and asking town to deadsheep my hero solve - it doesn't make much sense to do this if I'm not flipping town today

I am not impressed and laugh at your thesis.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Ok.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Tracer I think this play from Norwe makes your suggested Norwe-scum/Tracer-town world a lot less likely

actually the opposite.

if Nor-Town was actually townreading me he would know that this line of paranoia makes me more likely to be town.

Instead he sees me jumping out of his pocket and he's trying to kill me to shut me up asap

Does not compute. It's impossible to make you shut up.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Also i think it's complete horsecrap how ur like "YOU SHOULD TOWNREAD ME FOR WANTING TO DIE" like Sanae Kochiya wasn't a thing where you endgames cus you kept arguing you wanted to die and i being a big dumb dumb protected you for it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I'm thinking you wanted to do that again, because you realized that's the only way for you and ur teammate to endgame.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Source: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=87498&hilit=+sanae

[NorwegianboyEE]

I already said I'm fine flipping today I don't actually care about yeeting you instead of me

am very fucking good at ATE.

My scum ATE is designed to get townread, designed to buddy, designed to push, and designed to manipulate.

[NorwegianboyEE]

yea except i literally killed the easiest person to kill every day in that game

do you think its easy for me to kill you today? like lol what even is this comparison

I don't know what your plan is. Do i need to?

[NorwegianboyEE]

I just need to see that you playing in a fucking scummy way lol.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Town SHOULDN'T argue for their own death. Especially not someone as experienced as Pooky.

[NorwegianboyEE]

It's fake, nada, blabber, AtE. Whatever you wanna call it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Notice how he got unvoted by multiple players after doing that.
He knows what he is doing.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Rce and Ircher need to both put their vote BACK. Cus we almost just made a big mistake here.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If i didn't have this previous experience with Pooky, ngl. I would have fallen for it.
But it is only knowing what i do and having learnt from my previous mistakes that i won't fall for it again.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I'm thinking you wanted to do that again, because you realized that's the only way for you and ur teammate to endgame.

who is my partner again ?

Interesting question.
The obvious answer would be S_S. Since as you said, his partner could be anyone. You even tried to tie him to me as an possible partner.
What's also interesting about S_S is that he openly stated that he as scum would not hammer either of Toog/Tracer because he just doesn't do that as town, and thus would apply that knowledge to his scumgame as well.

Other choices are Wall, Toog, RCE. Wall could theoretically just be hard bussing you for extra distancing. Toog somehow seems unlikely since you both were wagons, but not out of the question. RCE meh i'm just not feeling that.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Yeah that's entirely possible.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Are you still not gonna vote today.

[NorwegianboyEE]

This is the game where we make S_S come out of his shell and then we all have a big group hug in the shower.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Then why don't you do it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

You scaaared?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Can you talk about that read some? I didn't see much about NorwegianBoy in your ISO.

Uh yeah, I don't townread him, and his play toward Pooky's been pretty weird (and consistent with scum who had someone pocketed who then became un-pocketed) and Pooky thinks he's scum.

Pooky pocketed me. It's the other way around.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think it also makes a lot more sense for Tracer to threaten me when he was no longer E-1 and i wasn't voting him.
When Tracer no longer was in danger of me being the one to place the game changing vote to kill him he realized he no longer had any need to avoid antagonizing me and so he changed his tone completely.

[NorwegianboyEE]

The timing is crucial here.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Also the whole idea that i was scum would start going into a 1v1 against him just because he voiced paranoia is ridiculous. I view Pooky as an much stronger player than me so i have no doubts he would be able to win against me in a 1v1.
In fact i'm kinda coming to terms with the fact that i might even lose it today. But that's just how it goes, i should have hammered earlier and i can blame myself for that.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I already was in a situation where i as town had to argue against scum!Pooky and Gamma Emerald hammered me instead of Pooky. That was an extremely humiliating and humbling defeat and there is no way i'd forget something like that and try to go directly against Pooky if it can be avoided. That's why i as scum would have hammered Pooky much earlier if i was of an informed allignment. The fact that an world where i am scum would inherently imply an world where i make choices that lead up to an 1v1 with Pooky is one that would never happen because that is the one thing i would try to avoid.
However it is entirely possible to end up in a world where i am town and scum!Pooky leads the gamestate into such a way that this ends up becoming the case.

[NorwegianboyEE]

No, Gamma voted me.
I just did it for him because he was gonna spend 5 days to come to the same conclusion.

[NorwegianboyEE]

He said he was gonna vote me and was intending to vote me.

[NorwegianboyEE]

the idea that i decide to read flip on someone ive pocketed is kind of idiotic ngl

Well that's what you did.

[NorwegianboyEE]

if you are town and actually believe this shit you need some serious help

I don't like the way you phrased this response.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Norwee what do you think about Tracer being the only person townreading Wallflower?

Did Tracer ever explain the reasoning behind their townread there? I can't remember if so.

[NorwegianboyEE]

They absolutely do. It doesn't do me any favors but in a tvt scenario it's probably more lucrative to elim toog. The noise you are generating would be enough for me to keep you around if I was scum.

that's why Wallflower is more likely to be town

If she's scum and me/tooge r T/T she is better off elimming Tooge not me

Oh right it was this.

Yeah i don't get why this makes them town from Tracers POV.

[NorwegianboyEE]

To me it just looks like they are mashing words together and concluding: "this makes Wall town for some reason!"

[NorwegianboyEE]

if you are town and actually believe this shit you need some serious help

I don't like the way you phrased this response.

As in like, this is a really fucked up thing to say to someone. You're suggesting someone needs "help" for their stance in a game of mafia.
You should apologize.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Funny

[NorwegianboyEE]

Well i have no idea who the scum is.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Like. This is the first game probably where i literally have 0 clues.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Why are you so convinced i'm not scum here?

[NorwegianboyEE]

could scum!you have been trying to pocket them like yeah i guess but its harder to sell me that than the converse.

i dont think youre out of your scumrange but we hit some mindmeld points early, specifically with ircher pre and post claim. maybe on tracer day 1 too? Also the way you engaged Tracer early in the game like day 1 when the started ranting about the gamestate.

Ima be so upset if you’re scum.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I think my preferred vote might be S_S because all he’s done this game is try to not get his hands dirty by never taking a stance, never joining a wagon etc. and i think that is the scummiest play so far.

[NorwegianboyEE]

And he’s taken it to sn comical degree. Where even when i asked him to vote me yesterday if he so apparently scumread me, he weaseled out.

[NorwegianboyEE]

And we still get nothing.

[NorwegianboyEE]

If i had a claim worth talking about i would have claimed it.

That's me basically saying i'm a VT.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Theory:
S_S is mafia that said "Ok just buss me hard today and you'll be able to skate by with the cred my flip gives for tommorow ElO, since there are no real town PR's left in the game probably."
And this silence is them avoiding to show any ties with their partner.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Did you crumb this claim?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Couldn't we in theory just test the veracity of S_S's claim by limming them and if they do flip town they can venge-kill? Although it is not a given that they'd hit town in that instance.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Umm. So does scum win instantly if an vengeful is eliminated? Or not?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Assuming 50% control all that's needed and S_S is town.
But shouldn't vengeful activate instanteneously and take down someone "with them" essentially?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Oh right.
Wow i really didn't think that one through did i.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Incidentally, this is also why I was playing the first few days so reserved; vengeful in a micro is powerful iff it survives to D4.

Does that mean you have reads, but just intentionally limited yourself to stay alive?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Tbh, your reasoning actually makes a lot more sense than i expected.
And that makes this hard again. Ughhh.

[NorwegianboyEE]

So S_S and Wall want RCE.

RCE, Toog what are your thoughts on the game?

[NorwegianboyEE]

S_S the more i think about your claim the more i want to believe it is real.
I feel like it explains your play and it also seems very unlike you to come up with a fake claim, and have it be something unusual such as vengeful of all things.
And that's also doubly making me question the people that are doubting your claim. I feel this could come from mafia that wants to dismiss it as "of it's just to live longer, whatever" instead of seriously engaging with the implications.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Toog what are your thoughts on the game?

If you are asking if I buy the claim. I don't. Claiming Vengeful in LimLo feels almost like someone claiming Ascetic on Day 1... Convenient.

Also this is an weird thought. Why is claiming ascetic on day 1 used as an example? I think that usually comes from town so why is that the example used?

[NorwegianboyEE]

And even if we say, lim your partner in a scum!you world.
Openly claiming Vengeful makes it so that it is fully possible for us to just lim you as an safety measure in the next day and then have you use your shot the kill the remaining scum. Assuming you are indeed town.

[NorwegianboyEE]

It's like... Either a town claim, or an very good fake claim.
Do you have history with making good fake claims as scum?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Then i can see you as being town with some surety i think.
But that still leaves a problem because i'm not yet confident who the town in Wall/RCE/Toog would be.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Wall and RCE are both shading each other today. That means either they are both partnered with Toog or they are distancing.

[NorwegianboyEE]

469 looks bad for RCE knowing that Ircher and Tracer are both town. In fact unless it's RCE/WF all of the people he mentioned here are town.

This should probably make me reevaluate WF because it means my play is the one that's been scummy but eh.

WF fits this evaluation as well. They've pushed just Tracer!town this game behind TW, Ircher, and later norwee -- and my slot which I know is town but town doesn't.

Side thought. If norwee we're scum here there isn't much downside for them to throw a vote down on me since 1 of the 2 slots content with elimming me has to be town in that scenario

I don’t want you to be a bad guy, why you maybe gotta be a bad guy.

[NorwegianboyEE]

This is potentially the worst betrayal.
I can’t even sleep at night.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I'm always paranoid of Ascetic claims. Especially on slots that I feel would be a cagey read to begin with

Will have to cross check this with Control. I don't remember who all pushed tictac on the ascetic claim besides Ceph

I pushed them because when you’re an arsonist. You HATE ascetic claims.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Are y'all trying to force me to make the first move.
This game is so dead right now.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Seriously if nobody posts by tommorow morning in my timezone i'll just vote whoever in RCE/Toog/Wall and see if it's a hit or a loss.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Idk.
That's why i don't want to vote first.

[NorwegianboyEE]

But i'd rather that than continue having nothing happen while we lose from time out. Only scum wins from that.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I do think RCE has been super inactive today considering it's ElO and i don't find it very town indicative.

[NorwegianboyEE]

In fact i do suspect RCE/Toog based on the fact that they have both been like: "Yeah i think S_S is scum" and then afk until now and ongoing. Without engaging further.
Wall has also been inactive but they voiced suspicion on RCE which seems like less of an obvious target for scum.
So maybe my preference is in RCE/Toog when i think about it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Wall has seemed slightly out of synch so that makes me think they are not partnered with anyone today.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Eh i don't think i'm gonna change my mind on this.
S_S if you think it's ok ima place my vote on RCE. You don't need to join me.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I just want something concrete to happen. And if i confirm RCE as scum that would invigorate me.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Kay here goes nothing.
VOTE: RCEnigma

[NorwegianboyEE]

That seemed very co-ordinated.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Well gg i guess.
Sorry for playing awfully.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I do wish Wall and RCE had been more active. Maybe i'd sort better in that world.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I feel so bad...

[NorwegianboyEE]

I knew there was something extremely fucky about this game. Especially since i started ElO having absolutely zero idea where to look.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Sorry for misreading you RCE and Tracer.

[NorwegianboyEE]

S_S not hammering Tracer when it was possible to do so, screwed with my reads bad.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I don't really focus much on mech as i do dayplay.
Which is a weakness i should try to fix probably.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Where are the pts? lmao

[NorwegianboyEE]

Ohh fancy.