You come from the 19th century?In post 7, JasonWazza wrote: I'm Victorian, so it's not like I have a major dog in that race.
Micro 1082 - I’m the Real Tracker (Day 4)
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Bingle Survivor
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"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Bingle Survivor
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I'm a seeking neighbor. No other seeking neighbor should claim, but if you're a seeking neighbor, you can target me. If I get no neighborhood, I will be taking this as confirmation that I'm a faker.
I will be randomly targeting a player who is not me. This is the extent of the mechanical discussion we need D1."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Bingle Survivor
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Absolutely nothing stops me from being the nk, but that’s okay. Unconfirmed neighbor is a meh role and if I get shot I get shot. The entire utility behind having exactly one seeking neighbor claim is this:In post 25, Merlyn wrote:
I'm super duper confused about this, can you explain more? What stops you from being the obvious NK and then we don't get the info back?In post 19, Bingle wrote: I'm a seeking neighbor. No other seeking neighbor should claim, but if you're a seeking neighbor, you can target me. If I get no neighborhood, I will be taking this as confirmation that I'm a faker.
I will be randomly targeting a player who is not me. This is the extent of the mechanical discussion we need D1.
We might get confirmed pretenders."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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For clarification, a seeking neighbor who gets a pt with deadme knows they’re alive. A tracker targeting me who goes to the nk has exactly the same implication of me being the killer as they would if I were to not claim. I doubt a doctor should target me, as a neighbor is not a very powerful role and so an unlikely nk target outside of dayplay. An inspector should target me if they believe me to be otherwise scummy, just like an inspector should do with anyone else.
Basically, I have only really influenced the targeting of people with the seeking neighbor role, because for every other pr my claim is entirely irrelevant.
Also, the pseudo claim conversation doesn’t need to happen until D2 at the earliest and has the significant drawback of potentially allowing scum to narrow down the more probably troublesome town prs."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Bingle Survivor
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Sure. The trade off of having potential sn pretenders know that they are pretenders early is worth exactly one sn claim in my eyes. I would have advocated exactly one sn claim if I had drawn a different role. That’s because the pretender is the role with the highest potential to be useful to specifically town, regardless of whether town or scum rands it. We should lim outside of pretenders if at all possible until the first scum lim because at least one pretender is town.
JW is correct in that if we lim town d1 we should probably do a target and incriminating/clearing/nr claim d2, but if we lim scum a full massclaim is probably better and if we flip tracker the pseudo claim is worth substantially less, which means that the way we pseudo claim (if we do) is a conversation best had, say it with me now, on D2."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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God no. If this was an AITP style game where discussion = bad I wouldn’t be in it.In post 39, Invisibility wrote: so do we just no lim and try to cut the discussion?
It’s just a normal game of mafia where claims matter about half as much for the rest of D1.
VOTE: delta"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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It's pretty odd to me that this plan is being attributed to kowah by a bunch of different people. Vizzy was the first one to bring it up.
In post 39, Invisibility wrote: so do we just no lim and try to cut the discussion?
Both of these show a fundamental misunderstanding of the setup, in that this is not a dethy scenario where putting the puzzle pieces into the right shape is autowin for town.In post 40, Kowahbunga wrote: I really feel like a no lim gets us to D2 with the most pieces of information. A lim maybe hits scum, but if it doesn't then that's one less piece to the puzzle we have. I'm 101% for a no lim today.
This is not AITP where scum is more heavily incentivized to do the solving than town is.
But regardless of whether or not that would be clear to everyone, it strikes me as super awkward that someone would call out the second post while completely ignoring the post immediately before it."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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*insert explicit question implied in the previous post*
Delta, what do you think about Vizzy's 39?"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Hm. I missed that. I’m still interested in delta’s thoughts.In post 55, Invisibility wrote:
Kowah was in 21. Though yeah I do think it's valuable to question why Delta never brought what I said about no limming up. Also yeah you're right about no limming lolz. Plus it's not as funIn post 53, Bingle wrote: Vizzy was the first one to bring it up."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Any particular reason you’re framing this push both as a scummy claim and a policy lim?In post 24, JasonWazza wrote: I mean I think we should just policy lim Bingle, because Seeking neighbor's shouldn't be top priority on anything, over getting useful information out of our information roles, and having them to be able to claim that information (which is now impossible, if we keep bingle alive, as claiming targets no longer works.)
Seeking neighbor's should have basically been treated as named Roles."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Lynx?In post 42, Merlyn wrote:I've played with them before when he was town and he did the exact same thing."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Because the definition of a policy lim is that it's explicitly not based on the likelihood of hitting scum, but on improving the quality/winnability of a game despite not being based on hitting scum?In post 66, JasonWazza wrote: Why is it you think both can't be true?"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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The utility in the role isn't in finding the neighbors, but in allowing pretenders who were told they were neighbors to find themselves.In post 67, Donempire wrote: I'm missing something.
So mafia can get the seeking neighbour role, and if a town and mafia get the role then that would mean the role essentially becomes useless as now you're not proving to each other your role by being neighbours, yes? In that case, what does finding your neighbour, bingle, would prove except that you are not a pretender?
Neighbor is basically a VT for this setup, but pretender is ~ 1/2 a named towny."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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This is inherently a mafia tell in the setup, more so than normal. A cop would have the motivation "I shouldn't get myself scumread and should fly under the radar". A maybe cop might not. There isn't a single claim in this setup that should necessitate backing down and letting it go D1.In post 68, Appearance wrote: protect themselves"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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So, to clarify:In post 66, JasonWazza wrote: Why is it you think both can't be true?
This seems to be a thing that i've come back to that you can't think it's both a worthwhile policy lim, and also scummy, can it be explained to me how exactly this makes sense?
There are several different options here:
You think I am an idiot, and therefore a detriment to town regardless of my alignment -> Policy lim.
You think I am intentionally trying to push a bad strategy in order to cripple town's ability to solve -> Claiming is scummy.
You don't actually think either of those things and are just conveniently putting a vote on someone -> You are scummy.
I'm trying to narrow down which one is the case, which I believe to be option 2."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Bingle Survivor
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Oh, btw, I've recently taken a new position that will mean my posting will be inconsistent comparatively. I will likely be posting in blocks like this throughout the game, as I will frequently be unable to post while traveling or at work, although I will be able to post in blocks like this at least once a day."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Merlyn is probably town for the meta read. Also the meta read is shit."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Kowahs approach to no lim in both games is actually very different. Here it is an active advocacy and there it was a very bland aside that was barely mentioned. The read is incredibly surface level, insomuch as the only actual similarity is that kowah says they think no lims are a good way to play D1.
With that said, merlyn was scum that game, so the broad strokes kowah doesn’t like to lim d1 takeaway is expected, and her scumgame appears to be decent and based around a fairly good read of the player base. If she had been scum here, I would expect a far more careful meta read than the one that only barely resembles this one, and that she simply linked the game without attempting to justify it with context supports that it was a very cursory thing.
You were in that game, does it seem at all similar to kowah’s D1 here?"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Bingle Survivor
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This concern over targeting fallout is very interesting to me. What do you expect a theoretical mafia seeking neighbor loses in the world of track guilties by outing their target the day after? “You targeted X, who was killed. Why?” Would still have the very obvious conclusion of “I thought they were town and I wanted to neighborize them.”In post 78, JasonWazza wrote:
I think the claim is bad for town overall due to the fallout of targeting -> Policy Lim.In post 72, Bingle wrote:
So, to clarify:In post 66, JasonWazza wrote: Why is it you think both can't be true?
This seems to be a thing that i've come back to that you can't think it's both a worthwhile policy lim, and also scummy, can it be explained to me how exactly this makes sense?
There are several different options here:
You think I am an idiot, and therefore a detriment to town regardless of my alignment -> Policy lim.
You think I am intentionally trying to push a bad strategy in order to cripple town's ability to solve -> Claiming is scummy.
You don't actually think either of those things and are just conveniently putting a vote on someone -> You are scummy.
I'm trying to narrow down which one is the case, which I believe to be option 2.
I think the claim is scummy because of the wording within it -> Voting for you.
In fact i'll take the claim apart to show why.
So first line, the second half of this line is unnecessary, and seems to be deliberately setting up for a fail, the reason this can be bad, is i can see a Mafia X claiming seeking neighbor, we have no way of confirming that you aren't that, so this becomes a huge issue.In post 19, Bingle wrote: I'm a seeking neighbor. No other seeking neighbor should claim, but if you're a seeking neighbor, you can target me. If I get no neighborhood, I will be taking this as confirmation that I'm a faker.
I will be randomly targeting a player who is not me. This is the extent of the mechanical discussion we need D1.
In fact to add to why this is dumb, we don't actually get confirmation of you not being fake just because a neighborhood doesn't spawn, it's either your fake, or the other seeking neighbor was roleblocked.
Second line is also an issue, your already getting the seeking neighbor to target you, why do you need to target a random player, this seems like setting up a scum kill, with a simple "well i said i'd target randomly" when in this case you should be targeting no one, if you are actually town, hence why i think you should be absolutely roleblocked.
As far as whether I should be specifically tracked or roleblocked… you have put a lot more effort into targeting the tracker and roleblocker here than I have. I’m an objectively safe roleblock target, because roleblocking won’t actually stop anything. I’m an objectively bad scum track target, because explicitly I will be visiting and the stand to gain no information from doing so. But absolutely nothing about my claim makes me a better doctor or tracker or inspector or whatever target than anyone else, and the motivation you claim to see here just doesn’t exist.
There is a scum reason to claim seeking neighbor, and that is to falsely confirm yourself as a pretender, but every mechanical issue you seem to have with my play is pretty much nonsense."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Do you agree that the games are only very superficially similar?In post 81, JasonWazza wrote: Kowah hasn't done much D1 here to go off, personality seems the same, i don't think he has done anything read worthy at this point though.
Though that's also coming from someone that uses Meta mostly as a rule out of reads rather then a generator of reads."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Anyways, it’s two in the morning and I had a 14 hour day, so I’m going to crash, but I hope we can real time back and forth soon. I think I can get a solid bead on you early (my main account is Jingle and iirc we both played a lot with ETL)."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Not the reason I'm voting you?In post 88, Deltabreedy wrote: why it's worth eliminating me for calling out something I find scummy.
I don't particularly agree with the angle you're pushing merlyn on, I just think it's awkward that your talking to/about the no lim thing and haven't addressed that apparently it was a thing from multiple people. What do you think about Kowah, atm?
WRT your Merlyn case, I understand your sentiment but I don't think it's compelling on its own and also I think that letting merlyn address it is more likely to give information than if I explain what I think is the case. If she is informed and slipping here, I don't really want to let her off of the leash and am just content to let you do the pushing there, even though I expect it'll come to nothing."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Bingle Survivor
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See, this bit feels like you're talking out of both sides of your mouth to me. Either it's good for people to specifically target me (I don't think this is the case) and your argument that me outing has helped that along, or it's not necessary for other roles to specifically be targeting me (The actual case) and people should basically be ignoring my claim for all targeting purposes. Which means your policy reason for wanting to lim me is nonsense. Literally the only impact my claim should be having on the game is that specifically neighbors should be targeting me. The claim doesn't mean I can't be scum, so I'm still a fine choice for someone looking to investigate, but it also doesn't make me scum, which means that I'm not an auto investigate. There's not much difference between trying to narrow down a roleblocker or doc or tracker based on who they target and their read on said player compared to say, a target massclaim.In post 86, JasonWazza wrote: The concern for targeting fallout is that i believe this type of game actually actively benefits from our targeting not all falling on the same player, to have the inspector have a bit more value, the issue simply being that you claiming this can motivate people other then the Seeking neighbor to target you, and this actually calls out roles very quickly based on if they target you (or maybe that's just me overthinking things, in that i think certain roles should be targeting you and other's shouldn't).
Either roles SHOULD be targeting me, in which case, giving them that knowledge is good for town or they SHOULDN'T necessarily be targeting me, in which case the information provided by my claim is entirely meaningless and no less damning than a pseudoclaim strat would already be."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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I think this is probably a result of my RL circumstances, but valid.In post 90, Kowahbunga wrote: I have a gut feeling about them right now that just comes down to me feeling like their posts are fake."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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I think overall this game has a strange preoccupation with the what over the why, when generally I think scumhunting should emphasize the exact opposite."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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It's interesting in that Delta is arguing semantics about what merlyn said and ignoring semantics about what he said, but in my limited experience he became obviously town when exposed to pressure. Which is exactly why pressure on Delta is good.
As I see it, merlyn made the argument that Kowah genuinely thinks a no lim is a good idea, so Kowah arguing for a no lim is not a scum indicative behavior. This ignores that how kowah argues that particular belief as scum and town could be very different, and in fact IS very different in this game and the game she linked.
Delta seemingly conflated not scum indicative with being indicative of not being scum, and has been saying that Merlyn perspective slipped knowledge of town kowah. Merlyn only ever said that the push for a no elimination was not itself scummy.
If what Delta was actually pushing was that Merlyn should have been more wary about the difference between how scum Kowah and town Kowah would push that thing that was a genuine belief, which seems to be what he's arguing in 105, then I'd like him to engage with my logic on why I think assuming a consistency in belief isn't worth analyzing is a town thought process, if a surface level one.
If Delta is actually pushing that the word choice of Not Scum Indicative vs Not Alignment Indicative is damning, then I think that's a bad take and disagree."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Not entirely wrong. The game is close enough to a smalltown, philosophy wise. Power role wise, we can ignore what people have today safely. Starting tomorrow, we should be able to make judgments about whether what they claim to have done makes sense to do as scum or town.In post 112, Political Clout wrote: I was thinking the same thing. but what jason said makes a lot of sense with the pseudo cop thing. alginments are random and roles are random so I thought it was just designed to cause chaos and I was going to treat like a micro vanilla game."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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To give the self meta I give in virtually every game:
I argue mech from a position of arguing what I believe to be the best mech for town in all cases where there isn't an autowin for town that I can't deal with as scum. I do this because as scum in a reasonably balanced setup the risk in being caught arguing shit mech is much greater to me than the risk in town following good mech advise I give. I also tend to be heavily invested in mech, as my primary interaction with mafia is as a game reviewer and/or repository of useless game theory."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Bingle Survivor
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Subject: Micro Queue (Players and Mods)
Supporting Evidence: I am the Jingle in question.In post 1648, GuyInFreezer wrote: /in to mod
Game Name:I’m the Real Tracker
Game Type:Open
Game Size:9p
Co/Backup Mod:None
Reviewed By:Technically Jingle
Setup Link:viewtopic.php?p=13783705#p13783705
Current Modding Commitments:None
Experience:Nonea lot
Hydra Policy:If you really want to hydra in a micro I won’t stop you
Other Restrictions?:
Deadlines?:Day deadline = Alive players (min 5), Night deadline = Alive Mafia players
Is it possible your game has any mechanically bastard roles or mechanics?Not outside of what’s been already mentioned
Is it possible your game has any procedurally bastard dynamics?No
Description:Experimental open setup."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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@Merlyn, do you still think that Kowah's approach to no lim here is similar to Kowah's approach to no lim in the linked game?"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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In this game:
Spoiler:
Not only actively voting for no lim, 4/5 of their opening posts are actively advocating that we do no lim.
Spoiler:
Despite saying they want to no lim, they're not shy about throwing votes around and trying to get to a lim. They go a bit into their reasoning for wanting no lim overall (low information heading into night gives better PR results with minimal mafia interference) and acknowledge that in their view the no lim should happen with virtually no discussion prior. Compare to this game, where they are not only in favor of no lim but early mass claim and think that no lim is still viable even in light of my having claimed, and there is actually quite a gulf between the way they've approached what is probably a genuinely held belief. The underlying belief in no lim remains constant, but virtually everything around that is night and day."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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@ Delta, Overall I disagree with the interpretation that Merlyn's statement was analogous to "This isn't what scum Kowah would do" and took the statement as "This is a thing that Kowah would do as town as well". What do you think of her not seeing the differences between the previous game and this one in how Kowah treated the early day.
I actually kind of agree with you on the "I think everyone is scummy" point being odd, as I personally think that there have been quite a few interactions that look vaguely like town trying to figure shit out. Nothing concrete enough to write home about, but I have a few townleans and no firm scum leads at the moment, and to hear that she doesn't strikes me as strange.
What do you think about JW's simultaneous arguments that I'm scum for trying to pull attention to me and getting people to target me and statements that people should optimally be targeting me? My gut is telling me that it's unnatural to both believe that I should be targeted by a bunch of roles and that scum me would benefit from having all of those roles target me, but I think it might be a situation I'm too close to to analyze well."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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In either case, I think Delta is probably town here.
UNVOTE:"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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In post 28, JasonWazza wrote: Well any seeking neighbor, Pretender or otherwise targets Bingle, as you noted, a kill would make sense to go towards Bingle, so a Doctor probably needs to go there as well, and the way it was claimed means it could just be scum trying to justify targeting the kill by saying "i am targeting randomly" so Roleblock and Tracker could also make sense heading to Bingle.
This, especially when paired with the acknowledgment that seeking neighbor on its own isn't a role that should draw night actions other than seeking neighbor to it.In post 86, JasonWazza wrote: The concern for targeting fallout is that i believe this type of game actually actively benefits from our targeting not all falling on the same player, to have the inspector have a bit more value, the issue simply being that you claiming this can motivate people other then the Seeking neighbor to target you, and this actually calls out roles very quickly based on if they target you (or maybe that's just me overthinking things, in that i think certain roles should be targeting you and other's shouldn't)."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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I still think the fact that she's trying to apply the meta is townish, but I'm waiting on her to respond to my clarification of why the games were incredibly different regardless. She's roughly on par with Vizzy, who is purely a tonal read.In post 136, Deltabreedy wrote: Also, has your read on Merlyn changed or do you still see her as town?"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Actually,
VOTE: PC
I feel like you're being very reactive here and Delta's 133 resonates. Do you have any reads you feel strongly about?"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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It's not *really* a meta argument, although yeah, I am looking at another game.In post 137, Deltabreedy wrote: And I think my aversion to using meta kind of blinds me to the positives of it - so I've not got much input on the differences between that game and this one.
Let me sum it up:
Merlyn knows from prior experience that Kowah thinks a D1 no lim is a real thing that should be done in non extraordinary situations, because Kowah said so in a game where they had no incentive to lie.
Merlyn looked at Kowah saying that and dismissed that as a reason to scumread Kowah.
Merlyn didn't register that the WAY Kowah was looking for a no lim would be a factor.
I think, just based on personality from skimming that other game and her posting so far in this one that as scum Merlyn would be more cautious about the read than town Merlyn, and that the brush off here is actually more likely to be from a town her than a scum her.
Which, I guess is still kind of a meta read, but more in that I'm using meta to try and get a feel for what kind of person she is and then reading her actions based on what I see there."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Meta itself is a tool that can be applied well. In this particular case, I think Merlyn saw a particular thing and jumped to an unwarranted conclusion without poking further: I think that what you did in that game and what you're doing in this game are different enough that asking why they are different can definitely lead to alignment indicative information.
Can you elaborate on why you think no lim is good WITH discussion here, compared to why you wanted no discussion for no lim in the other game?"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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In post 140, Bingle wrote: Actually,
VOTE: PC
I feel like you're being very reactive here and Delta's 133 resonates. Do you have any reads you feel strongly about?In post 145, Political Clout wrote:
I didn't see anyone calling me out I'll go check later. focusing on something else today everyone.In post 133, Deltabreedy wrote:
I find it a smidge suspect how you agree with me in full after being called out for sheeping the vote on me.In post 119, Political Clout wrote:
I agree UNVOTE: we are thinking the same thing.In post 88, Deltabreedy wrote: *snip*"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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I don't really think it is? Like, a VT claim isn't any more likely than an unclaimed slot for a doctor to target. And a person pseudoclaiming a target on a UTR is naturally more likely to be a doctor than a person pseudoclaiming a target on a scummy lurkerslot. I can maybe grok that you thought other people might have decided to target me based on the claim given Kowah's reaction, but legitimately that shouldn't happen and I didn't even consider that it would. I had the nullest of null claims and it should have approximately no influence on anyone without a SN rolecard as far as I am concerned.In post 146, JasonWazza wrote: a claimed role is a different beast entirely
Your clarification does make me feel a bit better about you though."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Sadge.In post 149, GuyInFreezer wrote: Replacing Merlyn. If the replacement is not found by 3 days before the deadline, deadline will be frozen."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Lies and slander."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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/oog
Your argument is fundamentally flawed in that not all power roles are equal. Generally speaking, (and this is speaking not as a player but as a designer and reviewer of games, especially opens and mechanically complex closeds) the impacts of town choosing to no eliminate are a concern that is overlooked quite often in the design process, but that's more a function of how often they're actually a good idea. I am not a reviewer who disregards the no elimination case. In this case, we have 3 miseliminations before we lose the game. A no lim strategy has to be strong enough to overcome the loss of an elimination, the natural detriment of being on evens (scum have more voting power in an evens setup), and the risk of a lucky scum shot taking out the power that would otherwise be making up for not advancing our wincondition.
No elimination is specifically bad in this setup (and, indeed, in almost any smalltown setup) because the actual level of power we have available to us is random. If we have an inspector, tracker, doc, roleblocker, and loyal checker who are all town, and enough of them are obviously town to be trusted when they claim. As it is, this setup offers literally no guarantees that any individual result can be trusted and greatly favors town eliminating a scum player early.
I'd be happy to discuss game theory in the post, but this is probably already more than I should do so in game, as it's not super relevant."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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I can kind of understand why Kowah thinks that discussion doesn't hurt the proposed no lim, fwiw, and at this point I agree that the belief is a genuine one.
Kowah, what do you think about Merlyn's meta defense of you? Reasonable, unreasonable, banana?"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Hell of a coffee.In post 160, Black wrote: Let me get my coffee and then I'll digest everything"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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They do not.In post 165, Black wrote: Pretenders know they are pretenders, right?"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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I mean, I literally started a new job last Tuesday and my posting is now squeezed into vastly different time slots from my historical norm. I'd be surprised if I wasn't tonally off.In post 165, Black wrote: 93 - I'm not really a big fan of Bingle just accepting the "your posts feel fake" claim and not asking Kowah to elaborate"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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^In post 195, Black wrote: I understand that. I still think the RB should only block Bingle if they think he is scum though
Also, if we say... leash the roleblocker to scumMe (in a hypothetical where that is possible because I am scum) that makes it really easy for my scumbuddy to yknow, make the kill. RB should arrive at their own conclusion of who is the best target and target there, without making it incredibly obvious. It might be worth it to have a designated roleblock target in the case that a scum lim happens today (1 scum remaining means any roleblocked player is conftown if a kill happens) but it doesn't necessarily have to be me."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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It is incredibly antitown to aim the roleblocker. The roleblocker should arrive at their own conclusions as to where they should target."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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We're back to the problem of a truly immense amount of cogdis in your arguments."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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My claim is bad because it influences targeting, to the point that it justifies a policy lim. Also, we should be pseudoleashing a roleblocker to my claim, because it actively mitigates the dangers of a roleblocker. Also also, it is proscum to have individual roles be recognizable based on whether they claim to have targeted me in pseudoclaim, completely ignoring that a pseudoclaim by it's very nature groups people into "roles that target townreads" and "roles that target scumreads".
Regardless, the point of a town roleblocker D1 is the threat of a roleblock. Say, for instance, that you scumtrack me. You receive a no result. You don't know whether you are a pretender or have been roleblocked, so whether or not you can safely fakeclaim is in question. Say instead that you get a result of I targeted Kowah. You don't know if you are a pretender or I actually targeted Kowah. Say I targeted no one. You don't know if I holstered, was rb'd or you are a pretender. The threat that maybe a roleblocker might have interfered with information means that scum can't lie about their N1 action easily, which then makes their claim vastly more interesting, because the only viable fakeclaim is to be a pretender and pretenders don't actually take actions."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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So, probably the last time I’m engaging on this, because it’s already become a huge distraction from actually scumhunting, but what can I say: I can’t resist it.In post 231, JasonWazza wrote: Also another News Flash for Bingle, outing the Pretenders early, isn't actually good for town.
Jason’s original advocacy for a mass pseudo claim introduces massive risk of mafia being able to narrow role likelihood down by the read type. If black targeted JW here, for example, even without my claim, everyone would pretty well be able to tell that wasn’t a doc shot and was probably about investigating. My claim doesn’t really change that.
What he has been doing is saying all of the things he sees as positive fallout from my claim (such as a roleblocker who is supposedly negative utility being able to target a low priority action if they choose) and trying to point power roles at specific people. A doctor could have the idea that I would be a night action magnet and protect me, or a doctor could think “Wow, neighbor is shit, I wouldn’t kill there” or a doctor could think “Man Bingle is an asshat; I hope that fucker dies.” JW is the one, through arguing specific potential lines of thought, that is actually aiming the doc at me, and the rb at me, and the tracker at me.
IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT EVERY PLAYER CHOOSE THEIR OWN TARGETS, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THAT TARGET IS ME. This denies scum access to the thought processes of the roles to scum.
Additionally, nothing I’ve done is about publicly outing the pretenders, but rather privately letting the pretenders themselves know they are pretenders.
Also, this is a micro. Potential XLO is D3 we absolutely want to have the pretenders know who they are before that point if we can.
VOTE: JW"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Hi VC!In post 239, GuyInFreezer wrote: VC here"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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/oogIn post 242, Kowahbunga wrote: I don't believe meta exists.
It definitely does. I'm not going to pull up specific examples, but suffice to say that there are people with a certain amount of experience/dedication to reading that are able to have mostly accurate reads on certain people. There are also people who are so shit at one alignment or another that their alignment is pretty much always obvious. Generally though, when people make meta arguments they are doing so very poorly.
The kind of thing that meta is fairly universally good for, though, is determining what kind of person a player is. Like, JW is fairly aggressive, merlyn was pretty cautious from what I could tell, vizzy tends to be pretty go with the flow, you appear to be pretty open and I can't help but get bogged down in theory when the opportunity arises.
None of that can directly tell me someone's alignment, but it does provide a framework to guess at what they might be trying to do in this game, which does.
tl;dr- Meta is a tool to be used in conjunction with other tools. It is very rarely useful as a standalone."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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The problem with your view of the game, Kowah, is that games are designed to not give enough information for town to actually be able to solve them simply through the use of night actions. A game like that can exist, but generally if you only approach the game looking at the information provided by cops/investigations/etc, you're going to lose.
Yes, we will probably end up eliminating town today, but in doing so we will narrow down the pool of players scum can be in. Think of the D1 lim as a cop shot that has the potentially good or bad side effect of leaving a corpse behind."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Like 80% of the thread has been mech talk, and there's really no point to it today. The tl;dr is pick your target based on your own personal thoughts to prevent scum from playing around any publicly assigned choices. We decide whether the flips suggest we should claim targets tomorrow, full claim tomorrow, or claim nothing tomorrow. If we full claim, we discuss whether those choices make sense. If we don't, we continue playing the game of mafia."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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What do you think of JW, Kowah?"He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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I mean, technically we could massclaim, determine which roles contained pretender slots lim one of those roles and have a pretty good shot at publicly outing pretenders on D2. That would also be a very stupid plan.In post 250, Kowahbunga wrote:
Isn't this literally impossible to do without their flips? Not even scum can know who is a pretender until the flip. In fact, one of the scum could even be a pretender. So this post seems very odd.In post 231, JasonWazza wrote: Also another News Flash for Bingle, outing the Pretenders early, isn't actually good for town."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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Not in as many words. JW expressed a reason why a doc might choose to target me based on me being a neighbor, which positively influences the odds that a doc might target me based on being a neighbor. I think a doc targeting me based on anything other than their read on my slot would be silly."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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This is what I was referencing, and when I pushed at it the response was "That's not what I think should be done, but what someone else might think should be done." which does not at all match the presentation of the post in my eyes.In post 28, JasonWazza wrote: Well any seeking neighbor, Pretender or otherwise targets Bingle, as you noted, a kill would make sense to go towards Bingle, so a Doctor probably needs to go there as well, and the way it was claimed means it could just be scum trying to justify targeting the kill by saying "i am targeting randomly" so Roleblock and Tracker could also make sense heading to Bingle."He brings the cool and the muscle" -FakeGod
"I was playing against the timer known as bingle tbh." ~Chennisden
"it's truest in mechanical games (if he gets a gritty setup and is town in it and needs to save the day, he starts levitating and his eyes start glowing. not exaggerating, it literally happens)." ~Ducky-
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