Micro 611: House of Cards Season 1 [GAME OVER]

[shannon]

Hi guys, I just got a PM to replace in to this game. It's my first time outside the newbie queue so be gentle! I'm going to read through now and will post things as they occur to me. I might not have time to get completely caught up tonight.

[shannon]

Just in case it's not announced, I'm the new Beeboy, who was the new Antihero. I'm posting now because I don't want to hold the game up, I hope this is OK

So here's what I noticed D1:

Dislike Maxous in 6 saying that it doesn't matter whether the whip is scum or town. Even though the whip can be held accountable for their actions, better to have a townie hammer honestly and maybe hit scum, than a scum hammer who they want to, no? Not that this is alignment indicative, but I just think he's got the wrong end of it. Not that it matters now, I suppose, since D1 is over and he's dead.

Dislike the quick hammer on the whip vote, it seems ... unsportsmanlike. Shos's reaction at 36 feels a bit forced and OTT, especially compared with 62 in which Shos starts to believe Bella and basically says 'oh well, maybe it was for the best'. Not thrilled with Bella in 46 48 56. She seems defensive and a bit too aggressive for what she claims was a simple, low-stakes mistake. I think SirCakez 55 pretty much sums up what I think about it. It's not about the one extra vote, it's about the process. (Hi SirCakez! How nice to get to play with you after you just finished modding my newbie game )

Not loving the vibes I get from Chilled Tea. Dislike in particular the stuff around the fake hammer. 237 "Well. I actually hammered anna and I didn't even realize it.
I didn't know anna was on L-1, I guess it doesn't matter. shos post where he "unvotes" anna probably doesn't count so she's hammered." - But Anna wasn't hammered. So did CT miscount or just stuff up here? Also, what's going on in 254, I can't make sense of that post full of half words and misspellings. Is nonsense the point? Because he goes back to normal in 255.

Actually, 255 really pings me because we had a very similar situation in the last game I played, but it was with L-1/L-2 not L-1/dead. The person who made the 'mistake' was my scum partner, so CT sticks out to me as scummy here.

Yeah, for some reason I thought others were more knowledgeable than me regarding the wagon. Should have calculated the votes before voting. Would have stopped this unnecessary misunderstanding.

@Chilled
Did you count the votes before placing yours?

No. But had a general feeling that anna was not L-1.

I've played three newbie games and in two of them there has been some kind of 'voting confusion', and in both cases it was a deliberate scum ploy. Not saying that I have a huge wealth of information to back me up or anything, but based on the game I've seen so far, CT is on my scum list.




Initial reads:
Townier: SirCakez
Neutral so far: Copper, Expedience
Scummier: Chilled Tea, Bellaphant, Shos

If I had to guess the team right now I'd say it was CT and Shos, but it's a wild guess.

[shannon]

Aww snakes! Newbscum!

Are snakes good (like the snek kind) or bad (like the bitey kind?). I will do my best not to embarrass myself in more experienced company, but I make no promises!

[shannon]

Oh and because I realised we are voting for a whip: VOTE: Sir Cakez as he's my top town read

Not self-voting because I suspect I misunderstand how to use the role and don't want to stuff it up for town

[shannon]

Sorry!!!!

Will reply to all those questions tonight

[shannon]

In response to Copper 407:

I've read all of this stuff between you and Cakez. If there's more, please point me to it.

Spoiler:

Why wouldn't you just not use the ability? Making someone hated is a recipe for a derphammer.

That's a pretty scummy mindset cakez.

If you give me a tool to help me lynch those I think are more likely to be scum by making me a double-voter, I am going to use it.

I am disclosing my intention early so that you know what you're getting into and since you're all smart people I'd consider such a "derp" after my disclosure a scum-claim.

I'm looking at it from the mindset of there's a good chance someone is going to forget who's Hated and hammer accidentally depending where the votes go which I'd rather not see.

I don't see how that's a scummy mindset.

I'm looking at it from the mindset of there's a good chance someone is going to forget who's Hated and hammer accidentally depending where the votes go which I'd rather not see.

Hm, either scummy or paranoid then.

I find it potentially scummy because you are waiving your right to influence the lynch more by claiming you would not use your ability and that's not the kind of mindset you should have as town, I'm already a bit peeved I had to compromise on Anna yesterday.

I find it potentially scummy because you are waiving your right to influence the lynch more by claiming you would not use your ability and that's not the kind of mindset you should have as town, I'm already a bit peeved I had to compromise on Anna yesterday.

I mean if you want to use it at deadline to make sure your preferred lynch goes through then I think that's fine. It's just declaring someone hated immediately after being elected seems like a bad idea.

I am waiting for Bella to clear up a few points before I decide if I want to vote her.

@Cakez
You have a scumread on expe. but you are voting Shos, who is his most likely partner, and you motivate it by saying you just want the election to be over.

Why aren't you concerned with giving scum expe's team a double voting power and the possibility of a derp hammer which would set up lylo nicely for them, in many cases?

How is Shos Expe's most likely partner?

Yeah Expe is a pretty solid scum read for me now as well.
VOTE: Shos
I just want the election over.

Wait a second, what is this shocking development?!

"now"? Are you implying that you somehow drew a scumread from that dejected, lonely nullpost above?

Not just the nullpost.

You have hard defended shos from the start of the game based mostly on gut because some of his posting sounded genuine, shos himself said it is "correct" to assume that you are only scum with him, so the first part is anything but a reach.

The second part is definitely not a reach for cakez, he stated he was afraid I was going to use the hated modifier immediately causing a derp. hammer (note I have a scum read of his in my list as well), so then he goes and votes for shos who pretty much said he is going to do so immediately, makes sense to you?

Also if beeboy was more likely to be scum yesterday and have a teammate helping him out during the election, how scummy are you shos for being the second biggest wagon yesterday but having most of the votes today? Another thing that doesn't add up to me.

VOTE: copper

Shos specifically said he would announce what he would do beforehand and wait for response. You said you would use it immediately. Difference.

Shos specifically said he would announce what he would do beforehand and wait for response. You said you would use it immediately. Difference.

Yeah the difference is you mixed up the players again...

How is Shos Expe's most likely partner?

If shos is scum then it's likely his teammate had to come out in the open to save him yesterday and the player that most opposed his lynch was expedience, since then they've had pretty samey scum reads which again could speak of a shared purpose.

How is Shos Expe's most likely partner?

If shos is scum then it's likely his teammate had to come out in the open to save him yesterday and the player that most opposed his lynch was expedience, since then they've had pretty samey scum reads which again could speak of a shared purpose.

You think this is what happens always? always the one who jumps up for your defense is your scumbuddy? never saw town defend scum? never saw scum whiteknight?

Haven't you ever been scum and pushing your partner?

Shos specifically said he would announce what he would do beforehand and wait for response. You said you would use it immediately. Difference.

Yeah the difference is you mixed up the players again...

I'm pretty sure I didn't with you, I remember having a discussion with you over how to use the Whip.

How is Shos Expe's most likely partner?

If shos is scum then it's likely his teammate had to come out in the open to save him yesterday and the player that most opposed his lynch was expedience, since then they've had pretty samey scum reads which again could speak of a shared purpose.

Is Expe one to hard defend scumbuddies though? I don't think he is.

SirCakez, what is the "now" referring to then? If sounds like you are claiming a strengthened read when all I made is one post.

Yes the one post strengthened my scumread.

I'm pretty sure I didn't with you, I remember having a discussion with you over how to use the Whip.

Do you want me to grab the quotes?

This is a summary of our discussion:
I said I was going to hate one of shos, chilled, or cakez. You then told me you though it was a bad idea because of yolo hammers. I said that wasn't going to happen cause I would make sure to tell you when I hated someone and you are all smart people (so a yolo hammer is a scum-claim). You then replied that it was still a risk if I did so

immediately at the start of the day

(which was solely your supposition); I then clarified that I would very likely not do so unless I was very certain of who is scum.

Shos claimed he was going to immediately hate someone and that is the best way to use the ability.

So why did you choose to vote him again?

I think expedience would go for the most logical play and in that position that is definitely defending shos, do you have meta that shows expe. is a hard busser as scum?

OK, so Cakez could be part of a scum team with Shos, looking to take control of the Whip position for their own nefarious ends ... But if he's doing that, why bother to call you out for (what he saw as) wanting to use the position to yolo hammer someone, and then choose a player who (you say) wants to do exactly that? I mean if it were me and I was going to vote for my partner who said that they'd use the hate mechanic, I wouldn't call someone else out for also saying they were going to use hate straight away. I honestly think it's an oversight and/or Cakez got confused, but it's certainly worth keeping an eye on Cakez to see if it becomes a pattern.

[shannon]

In response to Chilled 409

I definitely don't endorse dreams as a scum hunting technique. That was actually a bit weird, but I don't think it was scummy. I think Cakez's view of Anna genuinely changed, if we can take 222 at face value. He explains in 322 that he doesn't think ScumAnna is capable of planning that kind of response to a faux hammer, and since she did actually flip town I think we have to take it as a genuine change of mind.

I can't see what the scum motivation would be in moving off a lynch of Anna, I mean, pretty well everyone was happy to push Anna even after she faux-flipped, so it's not like Cakez would particularly be in the firing line for lynching a townie. And it's not like anyone is town reading him for attempting to nobly save the poor mislynched Anna. So for ScumCakez, there's no benefit in changing mind like that - and it could even be detrimental, because now we're all talking about it

I don't do meta dives in to ISOs or anything like that, I'm still trying to learn the game without complicating it too much. So if you think my read of Cakez is wrong, based on what you know of his play, you should definitely point out why.

[shannon]

Hey newguy, could you elaborate further about hwy you scumread me, because I don't recall saying what you said I said

OK, so what I said was "Shos

starts to believe Bella

and basically says '

oh well, maybe it was for the best

'".\

and an actual quote from 62 was

"

I kinda sorta believe bella actually

. It makes much sense to nit read anything at all that is ij the first page or two.

But at least this got us talking

, and i kinda think the whip is scum by the way hes talking about it."


So I think I was right about 'starting to believe Bella'. I was too strong in equating 'maybe it was for the best' with ' at least this got us talking', and I retract my comment. It wasn't my intention to misrep you, and I should read more closely.

[shannon]

OK, so it seems I'm being scumread because my slot's predecessor wasn't night killed, even though he replaced out ... right. I can't answer for either of my predecessor's reads, but I'll go back and ISO Shos so he knows why I am leaning the way I am.

Shos, why do *you* think three of us (all happening to be in this slot) have scum read you? Do you imagine a Grand Scum Conspiracy to Eliminate Shos, Even Though That Would Be Super Obvious, or is it something else?

[shannon]

Election Votes 1.1

Antihero (Elected): chilledtea, SirCakez, Antihero, Maxous, Bellaphant
Anndog40 (E-4): Annadog40
Copper223 (E-4): Copper223

Not Voting: Expedience, shos

With 9 Alive, It takes 5 To Elect a Whip.
Election Ends In (expired on 2016-05-18 13:00:00)[/b]

Election is Over, Antihero is the Whip

WHAT
why did you guys do this so quickly?! wtf?!

I agree that it shouldn't have happened this quickly, but this feels like an over-dramatic and fake reaction.

Make me hated, i care not. You die

Something about this just feels wrong to me. You're either the BP player, or you're scummy and frustrated. IDK. How would you react if I"d said this to you, now you're whip and making

me

hated?

We should do shos today.

While his original rage may or may not be fake, he later changed his viewpoint regarding anti - his push on anti that anti is scum because he got the whip so early is silly. It is also omgus and doesn't feel like the kind of omgus you see from town.

His initial argument was that it matters a lot whether we elect town or scum as the whip.

I don't see how it was realistic to expect us to come to a good conclusion on day 1 regarding this anyways. I feel like we might have randomly selected someone to be the whip, and I don't really see any problem with it.

Shos's reaction was opposite. He was upset about it and that itself isn't really indicative of anything. What is indicative is that shos was pushed by anti - for this particular reason. And shos gave a very weak reasoning for an omgus vote. That bella is anti's partner and that anti has to be scum for him to be elected.

It looks more like he manufactured this reasoning than naturally reaching this conclusion.

Are you reading the same game?
like at all?

you say that I attacked anti, and then he attacked me, and you say that I omgus? xD
in case you didn't read, I voted anti mainly for his reactions to my push on him. Yes, I think that him getting the whip so easily DOES make him more likely scum, but that was not the reason for the vote.

You guys are all about how the whip is useless and oh look how it doesn't matter at all, but then again, I'm now at L-1 which can be made past hammer this easily because of it. And will he get flak for it? I dunno.

Like, this game is p6, and I remember only two names of the participants, and we're *this* close to day ending. Do you guys still not realize these quick wagons are scum driven?


I'll let anti doublehammer me, no harm done - but make sure you get that dead later

A few things here:
1) I agree with CT's analysis, though I've said I'm scum reading him, I think it could be some distancing going on from the scum team (or I could be wrong about him - but I'm feeling righter about you)
2) The fact that you didn't get hammered, even though at L-1, might suggest that it wasn't a scum wagon. (What would be the point of scum rushing a wagon on anyone, if they aren't going to hammer?)

Here's your big read list in case you die -

current reads, for in case I die:
scum #1 is antihero
scum #2 lies within {sircakez, copper}.
likely sircakez, because he was also on the antihero wagon p1.

I feel Expedience is town, and inB4 antihero starts throwing shit again, it's not only because he is townreading me, but rather because of WHY. Posts 81 and his latest feel genuine. He's the first to actually ask anna for reads and all, too.

Maxout gets a slight townread there too, for his post 51.


The rest of the game is nothing.

But your voting habits don't reflect this.

VOTE: Anna

testing some waters

It bothers me that you have a three person scum list and yet voted outside it.

considering post 216, which is correct, AND considering the entire anna scene, I find the expedience vote by chilled on 215 very wierd. VERY.

This is also not the first tim eI find his play wierd/bad in a way.


Policy lynching Anna makes sense for this D1 I think. But I can really settle on a chilled lynch right now, that is, of course, assuming an antihero wagon is completely unviable,.

UNVOTE: chilled

So this was a vote to gain a response, and a response was gained.

sadly I think it's town.


Can we go back to lynching Antihero's slot?

VOTE: Anna

admittedly, this is a compromise, but I really don't see anything much better.

According to my count, you've voted Bella for the quick whip, Antihero for being whip, (given a read list of Anti, CT, and Cakez as scum), then voted Anna, CT, Anna. So if you were really trying to lynch Antihero, I'd expect much less jumping around and 'reaction testing' votes. I think you are being disingenuous. I think you knew Anna was town and you were trying to distance yourself from the lynch, first by doing other 'reaction test' votes, and secondly by calling it a compromise. 'Can we go back to lynching Antihero's slot' makes no sense to me; in all the vote counts, he has no one on him at all. (Caveat: you could have voted and then unvoted between counts, but I didin't notice it if you did). It looks like you were desperately looking around for any town target to lynch, and realised you had scum read Anti and had to account for that somewhere in a hurry, so you called it a compromise. (And why would you compromise on a slot that you called 'nothing'? Why not try for Cakez or make a decent attempt on CT?). I can only see scum motivation here.

Also, if you were so suspicious of Beeboy/Antihero in your big scum list, why join the Anna wagon that Beeboy was on? Surely you'd have to suspect him of voting for a townie? Especially since your other two players from your 'scummiest' list (Cakez and Copper) weren't on that wagon, and could have rushed in and hammered? And then when Cakez posts about town reading Anna, you accuse him of distancing ... I think this is a cover for your own fake-scum reading of him, and he genuinely did change his mind about her.

Hey newguy, could you elaborate further about hwy you scumread me, because I don't recall saying what you said I said

OK, so what I said was "Shos

starts to believe Bella

and basically says '

oh well, maybe it was for the best

'".\

and an actual quote from 62 was

"

I kinda sorta believe bella actually

. It makes much sense to nit read anything at all that is ij the first page or two.

But at least this got us talking

, and i kinda think the whip is scum by the way hes talking about it."


So I think I was right about 'starting to believe Bella'. I was too strong in equating 'maybe it was for the best' with ' at least this got us talking', and I retract my comment. It wasn't my intention to misrep you, and I should read more closely.

See, the thing is that I was scumreading both your predecessors. This makes sense, as replacing in and out does not change anything.
But the wierd thing is
That all three (!) of you scumread me?
I mean, that is just a coincidence?

Now you retract your statement, yeah, but see, the supposed thought in your head was upon reading that post. It did not depend on how you explained it in thread.

So please. Explain to me further on why you scumread me in the first place. Looks waaaaay too orchastrated. Also dat 405 looks extremely like an attempt to step back and out of spotlight.

make me not make you hated this day?[/quote]

All of the above is what makes me scum read you. That, and you are now using the 'hated' mechanic as a sort of OMGUS vote, which is dodgy in itself. Here's what scum might do: Declare an OMGUS-based 'hated' decision, then build a bullshit case based on several players (who only happen to be in the same slot) scum reading you for independent reasons that can't possibly be known by any of them. I can't answer for why my predecessors thought you were scummy, and no doubt the game looks different to me as an outsider than it did to them being part of it. But rest assured, I really do genuinely scum read you. It is my honest town opinion. It's not orchestrated in the least.

If you're not scum, you need to stop looking so scummy!

Also: I noticed something about CT's voting pattern when I reviewed the vote counts, can anyone else take a look and see whether they think it's dodgy?

[shannon]

UNOFFICIAL VC BECAUSE TIME IS SHORT

Election Votes 2.2

Shos (L-1): Shos, Expedience, SirCakez
Bellaphant (L-3): Beeboy
copper (1) - copper223
Sircakez (1) - Shannon

Not Voting: , Expedience,, Bellaphant, chilledtea,, SirCakez

With 7 Alive, It takes 4 To Elect a Whip.

Whip Election Ends In (expired on 2016-06-08 00:00:00)

Just in case it matters, I am in Beeboy's slot so there are no votes on Bella

[shannon]

Copper, this is the part I felt was off about CT's voting.

In 151, he votes Shos and says it's probably L-1 unless Anti has made him hated already.

In 232, he votes Anna and gives no L-1 warning. (Why the inconsistency?). Then there's the weird follow up in 237, where he thinks he's hammered Anna (which would have made her L-1 *before* he posted), and yet also says he 'was thinking that she was on L-2' - - in which case, he should have given the L-1 warning when he voted in the first place. Something stinks here.

As you say, Copper,

It would have been better if she replied immediately, but chilled preemptively justifying his "hammer" tops the charts for me.

Then this really weak looking defense -

Considering it wasn't the hammer, and that I indeed miscalculated votes what other reaction did you expect?

There was no L-1 indication, (I guess because it wasn't L-1) and I didn't actually want to hammer

.

I would have expected CT to give a L-1 warning if he thought it was L-2, and I would have expected him to give a hammer warning if he honestly thought it was L-1. I think I've said this before, I've seen this sort of thing in two of my three games, and both times it's been a scum move.

Yeah, for some reason I thought others were more knowledgeable than me regarding the wagon. Should have calculated the votes before voting. Would have stopped this unnecessary misunderstanding.

@Chilled

Did you count the votes before placing yours?

No. But had a general feeling that anna was not L-1

.

Again, why not post 'this puts Anna at L-1' like you did for Shos, instead of saying 'I think I've hammered'?

[shannon]

I was reading about hakf of your oost and got tired in the middke. Ckearky youre new in this, kok, but I wikk anaswer. From comouter though, so kater.

Yep, I'm new, don't feel like you need to dignify my newbie post with a response if it tires you

[shannon]

Whoops should have been a

[shannon]

I'm having a look at Expe right now, and I'm leaning town.

158, though against someone in my slot (Antihero), seems genuine.

I like this response to Max, it seems confident.

Expedience might be scum buddying shos.

I mean, of course. Anyone with a scumread could be "scum trying to mislynch". Is there anything I've done which actually makes you consider this possibility, or are you just giving meaningless statements to cast doubt?

I also feel like his response to Anna's lynch (was it faux lynch at this point?) was fair in 301, and his callout of CT's voting in 388 also seems pretty genuine.

I have a gut feel (and it really is just gut) that Expe is being honest, and I can't see an obvious or consistent scum motivation in what he's saying, so I have to go town for him.

[shannon]

Regarding Max, I think some of his earlier posts are pretty weak - especially the convo with Bella that went from 6, 12,17. It feels like Max made a pretty weak claim to be able to read Bella, and then abandoned it as soon as Bella asked when they'd played together before. Like maybe it wasn't a genuine claim to start with? Bella calls him out in 73, and then Max gives a vague response and tries to deflect by referring back to CT.

There's another weird post about Copper. In 57 Max says he's voting Copper for being too cautious, which seems quite weak itself (especially when other people are being called out for active, overt scumminess), but then he doesn't really answer Copper's follow up on it and I think he tries to deflect again.

@Max

Yo, nice playing with you people.

VOTE: copper

Anti or Expedience are choices I am also ok with.

This is the only post I made before your vote, what do you find overly cautious about it?

i just felt it was rather stoic.
Anyway you ignoring the shos-antihero thing for a reason?

I don't see any scum hunting from this slot, only wishy-washy agreement and disagreement with others. He could be weak town but I feel like all the deflection is scummy. I guess null-scum for now? That puts Max, Shos, and CT at the scummier end of the spectrum for me.

[shannon]

Itnisnt a bad oost, you just arent famikiar with ne

True, I don't dive ISOs at this point, I have a hard enough time keeping up with the regular game.

Thus concludes tonight's wall of posts to myself!

[shannon]

Shos: Loads of content of course doesn't mean town, but you asked me why I scum read you and I wanted to give you everything. I'm not one for sitting on things and using them as 'gotchas' later on. I am also not one for lurking, as you can probably tell.

If you can't see what's wrong with threatening someone for making you hated, you're coming from a really different perspective than I am and I don't think we're ever going to see eye to eye completely. Which is fine, as long as we're both on the same team... which I am unsure about. And I guess you are too. I really can't account for my predecessor's reads, for all I know the first one was genuine and the second guy just sheeped him for consistency. Maybe they pulled names out of a hat. I really don't know.

It has been ages since I have seen anyone write WTF BBQ, thanks for the chuckle

[shannon]

Ok I am now that dork at a gig on her phone. Just wanting to let you know ive seen your posts and will respond in the morning

And I didn't realise max was killed whoops

[shannon]

Catching up as much as I can before work starts, if I miss anything I either ran out of time or didn't see it; please re-post your question if I've missed it.

First, another thought on this:

Obviousky, if they are scum, they have the motivation, and need to justify their oredecessors. Either way, im not rushing with the hated. Ket me get home and answer and we'kk think

Townies can also be motivated to justify their predecessors. Not that I am doing any justification - I have no idea what the others were thinking. But I've previously subbed in to a slot that was scum read the whole game, and had to try to prove that I was town. In that case, it was really really hard, as I was reading the game I had to keep checking my role PM to make sure it really was VT, because damn, that player looked scummy (I think it was The MM). Anyway, just food for thought.

[shannon]

Hello Shannon!
I'm wary after your domination in aforementioned Newbie game but I thought Beeboy was town so hopefully we are town together.

I was going to townread her but yeah, I just looked at that game and she had a lot of posts. I might have to actually evaluate all the spam now...

I always post as much as I can, I think it's only helpful to town. I did it in my first game where I was Tracker (I even logged on from an airport during a layover), and I did it in the dying days of my other game, when I subbed in during a 4P MYLO in a really scum-read slot. I only have four games including this one, and only the one Cakez refers to I've played from the start, so ISO diving me isn't very hard if you want to go there.

[shannon]

I can't see what the scum motivation would be in moving off a lynch of Anna, I mean, pretty well everyone was happy to push Anna even after she faux-flipped, so it's not like Cakez would particularly be in the firing line for lynching a townie. And it's not like anyone is town reading him for attempting to nobly save the poor mislynched Anna. So for ScumCakez, there's no benefit in changing mind like that - and it could even be detrimental, because now we're all talking about it

The idea would be that SirCakez didn't want to appear implicated with the lynch, so he was in a superficially "better" position at the start of the next day.

And even if nobody's townreading him "for attempting to nobly save the poor mislynched Anna", couldn't he be scum who thought that it would?

I'm not trying to convince you of what I'm saying, or even convince myself. I'm just interested what your opinion is.

That's just it, any advantage would be really, really superficial. I mean, posting that he dreamed Anna flipped town has got to be the most attention-attracting move so far, so why would you do it as scum? Why not let the lynch just go through quietly? I have no idea how much experience Cakez actually has, but if it's enough to mod a newbie game I imagine it's enough to know that the move he made isn't going to be doing him any favours if he's scum. I guess we can get all WIFOMy with this and think well, maybe ScumCakez thought there's no way that scum would do it, so he did it ... but yeah, I don't see it. It looks like he's heading toward a lynch today so I guess we'll see how it shakes out (unless I've misunderstood something else, and we're still voting for whip?).

[shannon]

Right, here's my post thingy on Copper - fingers crossed that he is alive at time of posting I'll try to make this a bit shorter because I worry that I'm now overrunning the thread.

Starts out with a sensible non-scummy strategy for whip voting in 31. Spends a fair bit of D1 responding to Max and calling him out for weak posts, e.g. 59, 69 75 98. I am a bit surprised that Max wasn't a lynch target D1, I guess Anna must have looked really bad.

The next bit that I find interesting is his response to CT's faux-hammer.

This is a very specific question and I am not sure about this, but it was probably because of me looking at possible associations - I went back and looked at mod's latest post and realized that two more people voted anna when she was L-2, and thought she got lynched.

One possibility is that your buddy told you you had hammered and that was a panic reaction post, I can't escape the feeling it was made in preparation of an Anna town flip.

I see thought that some of you don't agree with me on chilled, if we don't reach a consensus the way to go is Anna, maybe I'm just overestimating my fake hammer brainchild.

^ This post made me go back and re-read the game description. I thought it was weird to suggest that a scum buddy had told CT how to react, but now I realise that scum have day chat. So that changes things a bit, I probably need to go back and look for connections between people's posts. I broadly agree with Copper's assessment of CT's faux hammer, I think it's really dodgy. And now knowing that scum have day chat, I think it's worse.

Another thing I noticed is that Copper is seemingly unafraid of defending players, not necessarily defending their towniness, but defending against bad cases made against them by others. I'm not sure whether this is a scum trying to look nice thing, or a genuine town play, but on face value it's towny.

@Bella/Chilled

Ok, the wifom comment was mainly the thing chilled just picked up on: i was super surprised the anti slot wasn't nked. While I was posting, i'd forgotten that anti had replaced out: i've not had a game with anti recently where he wasn't nked n1 as town, so i was suspicious he wasn't the nk. course, he'd been replaced and i forgot, like a derp.

Anti wanting the whip from the get go is a WIFOM play, he is signaling he is not the BP and scum can try and kill him N1 if they want to, if he is scum why does he make that play given he is usually killed early?

I just thought this was interesting, I'm not at the point of being able to keep track of meta ISOs yet, so I didn't realise that asking for the whip was a WIFOM thing.

Copper is a town read for me at the moment, possibly there's a bit of gut feel in there but mostly I think his actions look transparent and he's sharing info in a towny sort of way.

[shannon]

Snippy snip - Chilled tea:

What makes you think I knew anna was on L-2?

Well, you didn't think she was L-1, but you thought she was close enough that you had accidentally hammered, and you seemed to know there were lots of other votes on her?

[shannon]

OK, this is where I miss having an IC - can someone explain to me (maybe Cakez himself) why Shos' use of the whip thing on Cakez could be perceived as either rushed or anti-town? All I get from it is that he's whipped someone he thinks is scummy, and it's not like he's used it as a sneaky hammer, so ???

(Also, unless I missed something, Cakez is not at L-1...?)

[shannon]

Don't know whether anyone is online at night, my time, but I'm playing Civ and will check in later to see.

[shannon]

I always post as much as I can, I think it's only helpful to town.

I've managed to skim your other games. you do that as scum too.

@cakez: I made you hated, and as such, lynch threshold lowered by 1 = doublevote.

Well yeah, I was trying to make sure my scum game didn't stick out for lack of posting! Would have been pretty suss last game if I'd not posted much, given how my other two games were

[shannon]

Regarding anna's fake lynch, my mind was more interested in voting expe at that time.

The reaction from others practically messed with my head and I decided that going for a compromise lynch is for the best.

The reason why I scum read cakes although it is a tiny reason, is his actions around anna's lynch were weird since there was so little time left, there could have been no other lynch possible. His vote on exp didn't achieve anything, and couldn't have achieved anything. My vote on exped was to start a conversation around scum-expedience. It backfired and people started scum reading me for it, I decided to leave it alone.

Mmm, I'm not quite convinced, but OK. I could see how Cakez voting elsewise than Anna is a bit weird given the timing. But it's not like there was a wagon on Cakez to distract attention from, and Anna flipped town, so what was the scum motivation for it? I can see that maybe TownCakez wanted to vote with his conscience since the lynch was going through anyway, but I can't work out what the scum motivation is.

[shannon]

^^Wow, that is a really big difference between Bella's plays! Although if she's aware of that herself, she could be using it to her own advantage. I don't feel like I've seen many posts from her.

With two of you on Expe I'm going to have to go back and re-read everything again tomorrow, I have a feeling that a lot is going over my head. So Expe is now at L-2, and if he was hated it would be L-1, right? And one vote on Cakez. And no one is officially hated yet.

@Expe do you think Copper or CT's votes are directly connected with your town read on Cakez, as part of some larger scum plan by one/both of them? Or do you think that they're genuine-but-wrong?

[shannon]

@Shannon
Did you read expe's case? That should tell you all you need to know.

1. Again he connects me questioning Cakez with himself, I asked him why before and he didn't answer. Why do you think? Cakez is crumbling and expe. is hard defending.

2. The "clear opinion" I gave just now is that it's expe. and cakez, not expe and shos, which failed to register apparently, so the second bolded is even more absurd, it would be scummy anyway.

3. The last bolded sentence just isn't a possible belief to have if you are being honest, I have been vocal about shos from the start of D1 and expe. was aware of it at the time, so why has he now decided that I don't have an independent read on shos (whom by the way is not even relevant to the conversation of expe. cakez)?

Regarding Bella, yes I considered it especially after she made that WIFOM post, but it's not easy to alter all your game-play to fit your town meta as scum so I don't think that's the case especially given he above.

1) I don't think it tells me all I need to know, otherwise I'd be persuaded by now. I would not characterise Cakez as 'crumbling'.
2) I don't agree with your read on Cakez (yet). I'm still looking at CT and Shos, but I'm less sure than I initially was - hence, I need to re-read as I'm sure things are going over my head.
3) I guess this is a rhetorical question, but I don't know, you'll have to ask him!

Does this make Bella one of your strongest town reads?

[shannon]

^^Wow, that is a really big difference between Bella's plays! Although if she's aware of that herself, she could be using it to her own advantage. I don't feel like I've seen many posts from her.

With two of you on Expe I'm going to have to go back and re-read everything again tomorrow, I have a feeling that a lot is going over my head. So Expe is now at L-2, and if he was hated it would be L-1, right? And one vote on Cakez. And no one is officially hated yet.

@Expe do you think Copper or CT's votes are directly connected with your town read on Cakez, as part of some larger scum plan by one/both of them? Or do you think that they're genuine-but-wrong?

I don't think there is any scum plan, I think SirCakez is town, chilledtea is town, and copper is scum.

Why are you town reading CT, and scum reading Copper?

[shannon]

Chilledtea, good catch, but that makes it null rather than a towntell because shannon made that mistake as either alignment. I seriously don't expect a newbie to fake that.

Can confirm it's a real stuff up, completely forgot that Max was dead in between posts. I definitely need to pay more attention and drink less wine while posting.

I can understand why CT is voting me for it, and it's actually quite clever of him to do so. He's one of my scum reads, but now I can't vote him without it looking like OMGUS.

[shannon]

Actually no, you're more right because of the third post.

It's still not entirely clear because she could've forgotten who was killed. I didn't like her most recent post either tbh, with the part assuming copper's statement about meta was accurate.

I didn't assume it was true, but when asking someone about their beliefs you have to work from their own premises and draw out contradictions if any are to be found. In this instance, I'm trying to work out whether Copper town reads Bella.

It's like when someone tells you about how their God is omnipotent, and instead of questioning whether their God exists, you ask them whether he can make a burrito so hot he can't eat it. (That's a bad metaphor but I hope you get the idea. I didn't accept Copper's statement, I just had to work from his belief to see what the consequences of it were).

[shannon]

Sorry for the wall again, it seems to happen because I miss the time that everyone is online. The last group of 'conversation' posts happened after 10PM for me, and I was zzZZZzzZZz

[shannon]

CT I'm quite flattered that you think I'd have the foresight or ability to pull a gambit like that, but I really did just stuff up.

I think the first game I subbed in to no one was dead yet (it was like the longest day 1 ever with like a tonne of replacements), and the second one I subbed in to was in MYLO and only three others were alive. So in those cases it's easy to tell who to ISO. I actually did forget that Max had died. I've got no excuse except my own stupidity, but it is genuinely noob town stupidity. Of course, I can't convince you of that until I die and flip town, but for obvious reasons I'm not willing to die to prove this one point! If you are not scum then there is someone out there quietly waiting for you to push this lynch on me, and rubbing their hands together because they don't have to do anything.

I don't think anyone can accuse you of misquoting or misrepping me at all, I said what I said and I said it because I'm a noob who needs to work on reading comprehension and memory skills.

Unless someone has direct questions for me, I think I"ve said all I can on the topic, I'm never going to be able to prove my intentions to you so I understand if you need to keep your vote on me.

[shannon]

I have read and re-read and I agree somewhat with Copper, it

is

weird that Expe connects himself with Cakez. If Expe and Cakez aren't scum together, then it could be that ExpeScum is trying to associate himself closely with what he knows will be a town flip.

I am not sure about my read on Shos any more. I think today he has threatened me, Cakez, and now Copper with being made hated, which seems like town reaction testing, i.e. too scummy to be scum. In this game I don't see anyone as obviously town, so I'm not sure I can meet Shos's request for a town case on Copper. So FWIW I think that Copper's points against Expe have been fair, and in reading back his ISO I can see how his thoughts have progressed through the day. And I'd personally prefer to see someone made loved than hated, but YMMV.

I know CT now scum reads me, but I can see it's for a genuine reason - if one that's been blown wildly out of proportion. I feel like if he were scum, he'd have a bigger and more complicated case to make on me, just to really sink it in, so he's moving toward my town reads because he hasn't done that.

Bella ... I've got nothing on Bella. I almost think the team could be Bella and Expe, with Expe telling her to keep quiet in order to fit the meta that Copper has pointed out. I guess Expe and Cakez is a plausible team for the reasons Copper points out, but I still think Cakez is town.

[shannon]

I can understand why CT is voting me for it, and it's actually quite clever of him to do so. He's one of my scum reads, but now I can't vote him without it looking like OMGUS.

I'm not sure how to interpret this.

There's no subtext. If CT is scum, then voting me first on a minor point is a good way of making me look bad if/when I vote him.

[shannon]

snippy snip

Is chilledtea now a townread? Can you go into detail about that? That part bothers me, I don't see why scum would have a bigger or more complicated case on you.

What I mean is that CT has brought up a relatively weak point against me, and one that's plain for all to see and involves no misrepping or interpretation - I forgot who was dead and who was alive, and he's voting me for it. That alone, I think, is not enough to get anyone else to vote on me. (Fortunately, because there's real scum out there to be caught). So I think it's a vote for pressure and to generally let me know he's watching.

Part of it is also that I know I'm not doing a great job at the moment, I've been working really big days and not taking days off, and my attention to detail isn't what it needs to be. I'm aware that I'm not exactly an asset to town at the moment, which could make other townies misread me.

If CT was scum and genuinely wanted to get rid of me today, I'd expect him to be doing a bit more than just bringing up one little point. I would expect him to be picking on every single little thing I've ever said, and finding some way to spin it. (Maybe that post is still coming!) (Maybe that's based too much on what I do as scum, and not what he does). He's not a town read of mine, exactly, more like I'm ... not neutral, but confused. I can't call him Town for voting me, but it seems to be coming from a towny place. So I'm not sure whether he's doing a great job as scum, or whether he's town.

[shannon]

Fuck.

I'm literally the worst. I'm gonna give it 24 hours, a re-read, and then replace out if my slot is still crap.

I think shos is town. I'm kinda ??? on copper: his reasons for his town-reading me are weak, and based on shitty meta: cakes is...more accurate.

I'm totally weirded out by the fact that chilled just put forward case/arguement on shannon and voted me.

cakes, can you maybe throw some points/questions my way.

What do you mean, 'if your slot is still crap'? You're the one playing it, isn't it up to you whether or not it's crap? (I mean, I subbed in to a slot that had been scum read by lots of people, which is crap, and I'm still here playing and trying to turn things around).

Agree with the Chilled thing, the only thing I can think is that he's realised he's wrong about me, even though he thinks his point was strong. I think he's just realised that he's accused me of something I'm currently not experienced enough to actually do.

Why are you asking Cakez for questions and not anyone else?

[shannon]

On the Bella vote, she's expressed intention to replace out in 24 hours, can we please not get rid of someone whose replacement might contribute more? I just feel like it's the wrong time to lynch for 'thread avoidance' when there is lots happening that could be legit scummy.

[shannon]

Expe is developing into a nulltownread now. His posts on this page feel like town, specifically 539 and 541. This could change depending on the Copper flip though.

Because Copper's flip is a given now?

This game is driving me nuts between trying to figure out which of you are scum and which shouldn't be allowed to tie their own shoes.


@CT
That read comes directly from Antihero's sister, but hey you know better and your reads are not "weak", like saying I am the weird one in expe/shos when expe claimed at the start of D1 with shos at or apporaching L-1 (can't be assed to check) that

he would never lynch him this game as he feels genuine on a gut level

or that I didn't have an independent read on shos (I want to know what you guys are smoking...).

Yeah, I was pinged a little bit by the phrasing of 'the Copper flip', like do you know something we don't Cakez?

I am probably in the velcro shoes category this game

Who is Anti's sister?!

Expe, does your gut still say not to vote Shos under any circumstances?

[shannon]

On the Bella vote, she's expressed intention to replace out in 24 hours, can we please not get rid of someone whose replacement might contribute more? I just feel like it's the wrong time to lynch for 'thread avoidance' when there is lots happening that could be legit scummy.

Who do you want lynched then?

I am actually not sure at the moment.

I think I mentioned that ScumBella could be keeping quiet for meta reasons, but whoever her partner is would still have to be among the active players. Your recent actions look towny to me, but your early stuff still seems scummy. I will have to go back and re-read you looking for town evidence only and see what shows up.

I was thinking that Expe might be scum but now I kind of think his thing with Copper is TvT because (I think I said earlier) I think Copper's thought process is genuine ... but Expe seems really confident in his replies. Expe could be bluffing, Copper could be bluffing, IDK!

Shos is ... confusing to me. He seems like a really strong player (not that the rest of you aren't) and could be working with just about anyone else.

So that leaves Cakez, I think. Given that everyone else is looking townier, I'm wondering whether I was wrong about him... I think I need to do the opposite with him, and go back and read everything as though it comes from scum, and see what makes sense.

[shannon]

Alright, this is everything I could find that hinted at ScumCakez. If the analysis doesn't seem convincing that's because I'm not convinced by it, I still think Cakez is town. Short of some massive slip o his part, I can't support a lynch on him today. (Spoilers so as not to clog up the thread).

Spoiler:

Hmm actually
VOTE: Bella
Why hammer the whip vote so early?

Why vote so early, and then end up defending that person as they're finally about to flip town?

Also if Anti was scum I feel like he would have whipped Shos to Hated. He probably could have gotten away with it.

This could be trying to set up Anti to be sympathetic towards Cakez, Anti seemed like a pushy/strong player and not someone you'd want to have scum reading you

I can see why people scumread anna, but I don't understand why it's so BIG, and I can also see why people would townread her.

Why would they read her as town?

Also if Anti was scum I feel like he would have whipped Shos to Hated. He probably could have gotten away with it.

If anti was town, I feel like he would have made some grumbly sarcastic comment and moved on.

Actually yeah, I decided, this is bs. I used to always do stuff like that but he was just vaguely condescending and didn't try to call me scum for it, didn't make those yelling, reachy posts that don't belong.

VOTE: Antihero

no
bad Expe
Anti is town

As above

I had a dream that Anna flipped town I swear.
The main thing I disliked about chilled was how un-engaged he was. I remember completely forgetting he was in the game at one point. But I just reviewed his ISO and there's a lot of good content there so I don't want to lynch him anymore.
I need to review some other ISOs.

The whole dream thing is really convenient.

Expe is developing into a nulltownread now. His posts on this page feel like town, specifically 539 and 541. This could change depending on the Copper flip though.

The language here, 'the Copper flip' assumes Copper is going to flip today. It could also be a way of either having an excuse to town read Expe (if copper did flip scum) or having an excuse to scum read Expe (if he flipped town).

[shannon]

This is all the CT stuff that I think points to town. Lots of it is just exemplary of the kind of questioning and responding he's doing, it's a matter of style rather than any one thing that screams town. Reading CT as town makes his criticism of Expe genuine, and if (if) Copper's case on Expe is also genuine then I would be looking harder at Expe. I think I'll leave things here for tonight and revisit tomorrow when the rest of you have had a chance to post.

Spoiler:

@Chilled
Why are you so much less engaged in this game compared to the newbie I replaced into?

This is actually a very good question. There are several reasons for this :

1) Before the site went down, my internet had issues. Because of which I couldn't post for a day and half.

2) Then the site went down.

3) Regardless of these reasons, I find myself more and more apathetic on day 1 for some reason that I don't know myself. The game I played with anti is one of the only one I know that I played enthusiastically from the start. And even there I was bored during rvs and a bit after that.

In that newbie game you replaced into, I replaced into on day 2.

Anyway, I will try to put more effort into this.

No, his play is getting him lynched.
If I got an actual scumread on him before p4, others will too very soon.

His reactions to my (super weak) accusation (which in fact was really rather a thinking out loud than an accusation) is what makes me feel he is scum. The objective knowledge of him getting whip p1 is just a supporting detail by now.

I am not getting this scum read. He is town read for me.

He definitely has a point that the whip isn't that important so I can see him thinking your reaction was over the top.

I will NEVER vote shos, ever.

Ok why.

We should do shos today.

While his original rage may or may not be fake, he later changed his viewpoint regarding anti - his push on anti that anti is scum because he got the whip so early is silly. It is also omgus and doesn't feel like the kind of omgus you see from town.

Anna on the other hand seems more like a clueless townie than scum, although I can see why people feel she is scummy.

For example, if he had naturally reached this conclusion, then he would have voted anti before anti confronted him. But shos confronted anti afterwards, and his reason doesn't make that much sense as an omgus.

Also,

that is probably L-1 for shos

, unless anti had already made him hated, which I doubt.

Nah don't think anti has given up. Might have taken a small break from this game.

Copper what do you think regarding shos's reaction to L-1?

Day actually ends in 4 days huh. I didn't think we wasted that much time tbh.

I am not getting anna's play. If she is scum you would think she would put more effort into this game so that she wouldn't get lynched. On the flip side, if she was town, she wouldn't or rather, shouldn't be coasting without any content which she is doing at the moment.

I agree with maxous that her lynch is good because she isn't helping with the game's progress.

I would think that maybe at least one person would try and defend her if she was scum. Which hasn't happened from what I have seen.

I also think that listing town reads this game seems like a very bad idea. There is little day activity and scum will have to hit at least someone's null/scum read with their nk. That is if we don't hand out our town reads on a plate.


With regards to SC's first couple of posts, I am not sure entirely if that is scum or town. I can see town forgetting that they have to vote for whip though it could be fake I don't know.

Expedience doesn't look good this game, I am fine with his lynch as well. Actually

VOTE : Expedience

With what little info there is in this game, exp looks like the best lynch.

and yet, you vote Exp over Ana? you vote Exp over me? what sort of logic stands behind that vote?

It is a single vote. Considering no one's really pushing expedience, I felt a vote on him was the right thing to do.

If I vote anna there is no two ways about it, she will get lynched 100%. A vote on expedience practically guarantees more discussion and especially, or at least hopefully more stuff from expedience.

I mean, it would feel better about it if he fully explained and hard-pushed expedience with urgency.

but he didn't

I have little words to express my disappointment over the stupidity of the town.

If I vote someone who was less likely to get lynched over someone who was more likely, what do you think the purpose was? Lynching anna is easy.

And it is possible that she is scum.

However if she isn't, we are getting nowhere on day 2 with regards to our reads. If I vote someone who is less likely to get lynched, I do not understand why anyone, other than that person would come and try to derail the possible conversation that might take place because of the vote.

If you guys lynch me you won't be lynching mafia, just remember that.

I also don't know why I am being lynched.

But whatever. The town is clearly apathetic and doesn't seem to give a damn about who gets lynched. Copper's reason is not true, but ultimately do whatever the hell you guys want to do.

I've though a bit and feel lynching anna is a good option. Anna is not scumhunting, beeboy is correct.

If anna is scum then we will be letting her go and there is not much to let her go on. There should be some basis on which we can conclude that she could be town, and if she is town, her "I shouldn't have lurked as town" feels strange. She is not hammered so if she did feel like that she could have contributed.

[shannon]

I didn't realise we had so many players at a vote apiece.

Copper and Expe cross voting could be a team trying to make sure their partner gets away, or could by TvS. I would lean more towards Expe as the scum, but I could see it could go either way - it could even be TvT and I would not be shocked.

I don't support a lynch on Cakez today.

I dislike Shos's enthusiasm for the VC just to see Copper whipped, I think it's mean-spirited. Shos if you really think Copper is scum I'd like to see a case that I can be persuaded by, not just snarky comments.

I asked that we not vote Bella off until her replacement had a say, so we can work out whether it's a scum slot or just absenteeism. Given that it's now replaced (hi Ceph, welcome), I could support a lynch of that slot if we can't establish obvious towniness or if no one else starts looking really scummy - but I think we should hunt around a bit more first.

Someone asked why I was trying to meta people as certain roles, like reading CT as town - it's to try to make sure my conf bias isn't getting in the way. I need to literally ask myself, if this person was (opposite of what I think they are), would their posts make sense? I can't do that if I'm just reading generally, I need to write it down. I guess I could use a notebook or something instead of using the thread as my diary, so I appreciate that this might have been the implied point.

[shannon]

Copper and Expe cross voting could be a team trying to make sure their partner gets away, or could by TvS. I would lean more towards Expe as the scum, but I could see it could go either way - it could even be TvT and I would not be shocked.

I'm sure it could be anything, ever.

Hi Cephrir.

Oh right, so being openly unsure and trying to look at people fairly is now scummy. I think there's *something* going on with CT and Copper, but I'm not sure what it is. I've got mixed feelings about both of them. If I'd kept getting stuck in to CT you would no doubt have accused me of tunnelling, or bussing, or whatever. If I'm going to be mislynched it's not going to be because of bullshit like this.

VOTE: Expedience

[shannon]

I think I just made Expe L-2, with only Cakez and Ceph not voting yet.

[shannon]

also, it's weird that my slot isn't getting suspected more.

It's because it's been so quiet, I think.

i wish i was a patient enough person to carefully assess each shannon post but they're just too long and i end up skimming, it's almost pathological.

Sorry I am in the Antihero slot, FWIW.

[shannon]

I figured that people had had enough of my posts for a while and wanted to see what the new guy would turn up. (I mean, I can post more walls to myself if you want, but it's probably not going to progress the game at this point). Also waiting on the other non-voters and what they might do.

[shannon]

OK, this is interesting.

Cakez and Ceph are both calling me obv town (Ceph's opinion is based on Anti's slot). Expe has unvoted me in the time it's taken me to make this post.

CT (who I'm unsure about) doesn't understand the town meta read on me and thinks at least one of {cephrir, cakez, copper} is scum just for that 621. CT is scum reading both Ceph and me.

Copper wants a lynch of Shos or Cakez today. Cakez wants Copper. CT and Ceph seem to have opposite reads.

Cakez and Copper, is there any way the two of you can agree on some candidate that's not each other? Then we can see what Ceph thinks.

Also, UNVOTE: Expedience because fair's fair.

[shannon]

Oh wow, so is that like, a scum hammering scum situation?

[shannon]

Or is Expe really town and really thinks Copper is scum? Or is it Town on Town?

Expe I can't believe you hammered without giving intent!

[shannon]

Expe whatever Copper flips, I can't believe you just did that. Hammering without notice is super scummy. I just asked Copper to think about lynches outside of Cakez, were you thinking he'd incriminate you so you hammered?

I don't know what to think but you better hope he flips scum or you're toast tomorrow Expe.

[shannon]

Someone say *something*, I can't believe I just unvoted Expe and now he's hammered Copper without a second thought.

[shannon]

Hopefully the mod is offline and we get a few more posts.

Copper if you're town I want to know your reads.

Expe if you're town I want a genuine reason why you hammered without a warning.

If Copper flips scum I'm still going to be looking at you Expe, wondering whether you were bussing hard in order to preserve your own town reputation.

[shannon]

!!!

[shannon]

Yeah I guess you were, although that would mean the other two reads are genuine. So I guess my post needs to be rewritten for tomorrow - Cakez and Ceph, are there any people you can both agree on?

[shannon]

I'm glad you were right about it, if we'd lost someone today I feel like we would have been in real trouble with only a bulletproof PR role. You also saved me from potentially forming a 'town block' with a scum member, so I should be grateful for that.

But it was still a shitty thing to do. Don't do it again!

[shannon]

Why do you think I"m going to die tonight? Why do you think you will?

[shannon]

Are you sure you didn't just get lucky? I mean you threatened Cakez and me too before eventually setting on Copper.
Or get unlucky and were planning to move on to someone else but Expe hammered?

[shannon]

No, I think it's pretty much 90% against. It would be a super long term bus, which is really unlikely. But I was hoping that Shos would come here to say that!

[shannon]

I really can't believe the thread is still open, this is awesome!

[shannon]

My net connection dropped out, hopefully I have not already submitted this post.

If I am made whip I would prefer to come to some sort of majority consensus about who should be made loved or hated. I had Shos pinned as scum and had this whole post in my head about why that was, so his NK has thrown things up in the air for me.

If forced to decide on my own I would definitely prefer to make someone loved rather than hated. The last thing I want is to make it easier for scum to kill one of us off. At this point I have a choice between a quick-hammerer who got it right, someone who scum reads me, and two people who were part of a late-day rush on 'shan is totally obv town! I would never vote that slot' - which is awesome and all, but came off as setting me up as a NK target. So I dunno who I would pick to make loved. Is there a punishment for not choosing anyone?

[shannon]

Shos kill is weird, I would have expected one on Shannon given the consensus on her being town.
I'm fine with her being Whip for now though.

shos made copper hated, which led to a lynch that might not otherwise have occurred

I thought Shos made Copper hated as kind of a bus, and then it all went too far. When Expe hammered I then suspected Expe, but I also feel weird about Cakez calling for intent to hammer. I didn't feel like we needed to rush it. But then ... all those people were right about Copper, so... I can't tell whether it was a bus (and who by), or whether the other scum was on a different wagon.

[shannon]

I have never played with this role config before, I can see how a walker claim helps if unchallenged (one player is unlynchable so it narrows down the scum pool) but is this the only advantage? What are the disadvantages?

[shannon]

Are you saying you think that CT is scum?

[shannon]

Alright, I just reviewed Copper. If he's scum with Expe he's been driving that bus since about 160, and he starts laying it on thick from there. In retrospect it's kind of obvious that Copper has been pushing for an Expe mislynch, associating him with anyone else that looked at all scummy - first Shos, and then Cakez after the Cakez 'dream' at the end of D1. If I were TownExpe, I would definitely feel like Copper was targeting me, and I'd probably have hammered him out of frustration.

Townier

Expe - based on Copper's constant attacks, Occam's Razor says town
Cakez - based on my own town read, and then Copper's associating him with Expe. A bit unsure about his encouraging people to hammer Copper, it could have been for town cred since the wagon was well underway

Unsure

Ceph - Predecessor was a lurker, hasn't done anything towny except refuse to hammer a wagon (but this turned out to be the right wagon), and town read me (which could be for convenience)
CT - Scum read me based on the 'zombie max' thing, but backed down. Not sure if genuine change of mind, or not wanting to stick out as targeting the townie

Interesting that CT voted Ceph, and Ceph is now apparently saying that CT the likely scum

[shannon]

Anti seemed like a pretty forceful player. My guesses are one of the following:

- save anti for a mislynch, rely on someone asking the whip-not-dead question, or ask it themselves

- anti was town reading scum and they thought it would help d2

- having such a crazy player around (I mean he's pretty out there style wise) could be a good mis lunch target

Apologies for formatting I'm on mobile

[shannon]

Anti is never a safe mislynch. So that's out of the question.

Anti was a safe kill considering he was so quickly elected as the whip. Why kill max over anti? For one mislynch? What if max was the BP and the kill didn't go through? What if anti was the BP and he cannot be mislynched since he becomes a named townie?

Anyways, I need to re-read the game.

I'll take your word for it, I haven't done any meta ISOing or research so I'm taking people as I see them in this game.

Maybe - and this is a big maybe - scum avoided Anti because they didn't want to draw attention to the 'whip loses their BP vest' mechanic on D1. I will admit that I only skimmed the whip description and had to go back and re-read it when it was first mentioned that Anti's taking the whip was a signal that he wasn't a BP. From 717, it seems like Ceph didn't get it either.

I am really at a loss to explain why Max was chosen. I don't see him as the best scum hunter, or the best leader, so I'm not sure what threat he posed to scum more than say Anti, Shos, Expe, or CT, who all seem on the ball and quite forceful when they need to be. Were there any hints of Anti replacing out that might have suggested leaving him alive? What was the vibe at that point in the game? Anyway, this wouldn't explain why Max was chosen. I can't help but think that the point was just to be as unlikely as possible and have us waste time trying to work it out.

So what's the go now, are we waiting on a BP claim before electing the whip, or do we want to get to W-1 and have that person volunteer their BP status if they have it?

[shannon]

Anyone going to counter claim?

(Not me, I'm plain vanilla)

[shannon]

(I'm up for 10 more minutes, if no one posts in that time I'm going to go to bed).

[shannon]

It might still be Expe, we should at least wait to see

[shannon]

That would be amusing

Should we move on the whip yet?

[shannon]

I kind of don't want to be the whip, because I feel like prime NK fodder. Or (almost) worse, being left alive and then mislynched in LYLO FTL.

[shannon]

Expe who would you want to whip if you got the power?

[shannon]

Shannon, why do you think you will be a lynch candidate if you were made the whip?

Well, Shos mentioned it yesterday, and we have just been talking about how weird it was that anti(me) wasn't killed for being the D1 whip, I just feel like it's tempting fate.

[shannon]

Guys I think Ceph has slipped, can you please read this and see whether you're getting what I am from it.

714 displays an understanding of the game mechanic - Walker is a confirmed townie who can't get killed tonight, and if he claims, we don't choose him as whip (implied understanding: because the whip loses bulletproof)

717 - asks what does being whip have to do with being killed?

I don't know whether I have misinterpreted this or whether it really is a slip. Thoughts?

Here's the whole posts with bold by me:

I have never played with this role config before, I can see how a walker claim helps if unchallenged (one player is unlynchable so it narrows down the scum pool) but is this the only advantage? What are the disadvantages?

if it's challenged, we lynch both and automatically win, so it won't be.

i think having a confirmed townie who can't get killed tonight

outweighs the benefits of him potentially getting shot tonight, which wouldn't mathematically help us at all.

i think this is precisely when he was meant to claim, from a game design standpoint, and we can then proceed to not elect him as whip

What does him being whipped have to do with whether he'd be killed or not?

I want a BP claim today. I already outlined why, argue with that or concede the point.

[shannon]

Sorry, got distracted by the footy! Come on Crows!

Quotes for context:

Shannon, why do you think you will be a lynch candidate if you were made the whip?

Shannon, why do you think you will be a lynch candidate if you were made the whip?

Well, Shos mentioned it yesterday, and we have just been talking about how weird it was that anti(me) wasn't killed for being the D1 whip, I just feel like it's tempting fate.

What relation does it have with the whip mechanic?

I feel like at this point, being a whip means being a trusted townie, and the whip's vote counts for a lot. Like, the town/scum read of my strongest town read is someone I'm likely to go after. Scum night killing the whip would be a good strategy, because it would potentially throw everything up in the air. As a somewhat unlikely example: If I was whip and hated Expe today and the lynch went through, and I was killed tonight, how would Cakez choose between Ceph and CT in LYLO? (Note to Cakez: Pretty sure CT is town).

If the whip *isn't* night killed, scum can use that to point to the whip being scum themselves. And since Anti was already not-killed, I feel like others might be susceptible to this argument against me, because it'd be twice that this slot had been an unkilled whip.

I'm not sure whether being the whip is an 'every town' problem, or just specific to my situation given what's happened with Anti already. I don't know whether scum is trying to set me up to be whip today in order to use this argument, but hopefully now that I've put it out there it won't hold water if it's brought up in LYLO.

[shannon]

I get that on D1 and D2 being whip was as good as saying 'not bulletproof', but now I think there's more to it because we're so close to lylo. If you don't feel the same way then that's good I guess.

[shannon]

OK let's just do it then. VOTE: Expe

[shannon]

@shannon:

Why didn't anti get killed on n1 even though he was whipped?

I simply didn't follow the logic of Walker loses his BP if whipped -> scum will kill the whip every night

Scum will could always kill the whip because the whip is guaranteed not to be bullet proof. It's either a regular townie, or Walker, and walker loses his BP in the event he becomes whip. Does that make more sense?

[shannon]

Ceph that's not a very helpful attitude to have. I literally won a scum game because two of the targeted townies *self hammered* thinking that the pressure wouldn't let up. One of these was during 5P LYLO and cost town the game. It was satisfying as scum but it will be far less satisfying if it leads to a town loss here. If you don't fight back, it's essentially an effort-free lynch for scum. If you think you're today's most likely candidate, fight back. Make an argument so that scum have to answer it, and maybe we can catch them.

[shannon]

Why is that Cakez?

[shannon]

I know it's not LYLO, but it will be tomorrow and I'd rather get more info from scum by making them talk today rather than giving them an 'easy' lynch on you.

[shannon]

^^ I don't think CT is lurking or avoiding serious questions, I think he's trying to work out whether or not to trust me.

[shannon]

To make that clear in case anyone is on overnight and speculating, I think CT is town.

[shannon]

I am almost certain that Ceph is the scum. I would put ct and expe each at like 80% town.

[shannon]

I'm about as sure of CT as I am of Expe. Both of them have done slightly dodgy stuff - Expe hammered without warning, CT got it really wrong about Copper. If Expe had been wrong about Copper, it would be a very different game for him. At the moment I am equally sure of them because (to me) these factors balance out, and I am pretty sure we're right about Ceph being scum. If we take Ceph off the table for today, I'm not sure which way I'd go.

We need to either be 100% right, or to make it as easy for Cakez as possible in LYLO. To that end, I'm not sure Ceph is the best vote today. At risk of posting a wall again after I have been so good, a quick summary of what I see as the options for Cakez, if Ceph is today's lynch.

Me and Expe - Cakez' two town reads, pretty much a guess.
CT and Expe - Scum CT would say it's awfully convenient Cakez other town read (me) got disappeared overnight. Scum Expe would say that this is just what Scum CT wants him to think. Wifom ensues.
CT and me - Same as CT and Expe.

Whereas, I think, if it's a choice between *anyone* and Ceph, Ceph is the obvious loser. If he makes it through to LYLO, he's almost certainly scum. I am not 100% believing his explanation for his slip earlier.

Thoughts?

[shannon]

I thought it looked dodgy because it's a way to get town cred while hiding scum status. Possibly lack of experience on my part but if I were scum it's something I'd do.

I can see what you mean about CT being so wrong, but I think he's genuine. Is there anything you know about him that suggests he's not genuine?

[shannon]

Hope there's lots of activity here today, I'm home sick and there is only so much Brexit coverage one can watch

[shannon]

Well, looks like I jinxed the game. Where is everyone? Where's Expe, I feel like I haven't seen him for ages.

[shannon]

Good point about Copper's early play. Ceph it looks like your days are numbered. donyoibhave anything to say before you are whipped?

[shannon]

Are we officially voting for lunch now or do we need to wait for the mod?

I am feeling pretty good about ceph but part of me does worry that this is too easy.

[shannon]

Well, looks like I get to go first this time. VOTE: Ceph

Three votes needed to lynch, so this is L-2. Expe intends to make Ceph hated, so it's effectively L-1.

I will likely be offline tonight for a social engagement (real people, *sigh*). If this Day is still ongoing tomorrow, I'll frankly be surprised. I am pretty sure that this vote will clinch it for town.

[shannon]

I don't think I hammered. You didn't make him hated yet. And even if you did it still means 2 votes to lynch, and no one else has voted yer. Hopefully we get some feedback from Ceph before anyone else votes..


Sorry for typos etc on mobile

[shannon]

i'm duoisoing copper and chilled but i'm not really finding the magical slam dunk i was hoping to somehow stumble across. what do you all think of their interactions around chilled not-hammering anna? ~280-320

they don't really smack of S-S to me. perhaps i'm wrong after all.

This was initially the stuff that made me think CT was scum, at the point I was reading it I thought Copper was townish. Now that Copper has flipped I see it in reverse. I agree with you that it doesn't look scum-scum and I think it was too early in the game to be a bus or a distancing attempt.

Hopefully we get some feedback from Ceph before anyone else votes..

Why did you say this right after saying you think your vote would clinch it for town?

I really do think we're going to win by lynching you. But I've been known to be wrong. (I know I can't believe it either). So I hope that Town You would give us some thoughts to go on in case. It's not too late to change minds, if you've got a case to make on someone else (who are

you

voting?) then make it.

[shannon]

Do you think that Copper was trying to buddy up with Anti early on, as part of some larger strategy that involved a wifom night kill d1? If he was, I suppose it messed up that plan when Anti subbed out. I think there is definitely something weird about Copper's defence of anti. Did you notice anyone else being part of it, or alternately, ignoring it in a suspicious way?

[shannon]

532 in retrospect looks like copper hedging his bets. Like he's trying to keep me on side because I'm one of a few not scum reading him, but he also wants to see whether my lynch has legs just in case he can save himself by voting me. Hmm. But who is he working with? I think it was around that time that cakes came out and said he town read me, and ceph announced he'd never vote antis slot or something like that. Given cakes is conf town, if ct is town it's expe or ceph, and I still think Ceph.

Apologies for typos, on mobile.

[shannon]

Ceph, if you are town you can help us win by sharing your reads or anything you've picked up on.

The only time staying quiet and making no effort is a valid strategy is if you are scum. Seriously, my first game - confirmed townie and two others in LYLO. Both the others were replacements. Townie did some prodding, the other townie went silent, scum went quiet too (why make a fuss and draw attention or say the wrong thing), scum won. Another recent game, a townie who had been quiet for days asked to sub out during LYLO, that was enough to get them lynched on policy, just to get it over with - scum win again.

Start with your read on CT. Why did you think he was scum as soon as you joined the game? What about your read on Anti(me), why is my so towny you'd never consider voting it? What do you make of Expe now? What can you give Cakez that is going to help him decide during LYLO, *if* we don't win today by lynching you?

[shannon]

^^ Ta for that Ceph, it's good to know whwere you are up to.

I am going to UNVOTE: for now so that mr whippy can do what he needs to do without worrying about hammering.

[shannon]

Um hello, anyone out there?

[shannon]

Whoops I need the official tag UNVOTE: Ceph

[shannon]

Hopefully someone else comes along tonight and we can get this moving again. I think we're all heading towards the same conclusion here.

[shannon]

Dude don't self vote, that's the least towny thing possible.

[shannon]

I guess the question we all need to ask ourselves is, "if it's expe or shannon, is there any chance whatsoever we're not going to lose?"

If the answer to that is no, then it doesn't really matter what order we lynch me and CT in.

It totally matters. Cakez is conf town, which means that once we reach LYLO the other two players will know the truth about each other and the town one will be able to track down every little scummy thing the scummy one did. If you think you're the kind of player who can do this well, you totally want to be around for LYLO instead of dead today. That's discounting the possibility of being NKed, of course, but you get the idea.

[shannon]

Just realised this has been sitting here and I forgot to hit enter.

Well, I think you're wrong. If Expe is scum and I go to LYLO with him, I think I can prove it to Cakez. Admittedly this relies on Cakez having some understanding of my meta, since he just modded a game where I was scum and we dominated, so he can hopefully tell that I'm not scum here. (By dominated I mean that D3 ended with both of us scum still alive, and a townie self-hammering under pressure to give us the win - this is why I"m so keen to avoid someone self-hammering here, it just makes things so much easier for scum).

The assumption I made in that post is that we're wrong about you today and we're going to LYLO. This should tell you that I'm open to considering other lynches. I want to get this right today, but failing that, I want to make sure we're in the best position we can be tomorrow, and that includes giving Cakez as much info as possible to base his decision on - whoever is involved in it.

[shannon]

Are you saying that you and CT are town and scum is Expe or me?

What do you mean by don't worry about that? What are you thinking that's scummy? Or are you accusing me of assuming something scummy? I can't quite tell from what you've written.

[shannon]

Hmm reading that back, I didn't mean those three questions to come across as quite so shrill as what they are when Ir ead them back.

Was hoping someone would be online to reply, or at least, to say *something*

Whoopsie didn't mean to ignore Cakez' question earlier. I don't know whether CT is coasting and being quiet, but if he is, then Expe is too. Expe hasn't done much in the past 48 hours except for the post where he tried to connect Copper to Anti and me. I refuted that one and he hasn't posted here since. I would expect the whip to be doing more, but YMMV.

[shannon]

Ceph said if scum was me or expe then town is stuffed because neither of us is currently on the vote list. I said that I think I could beat expe if I went to lylo with him, so we may not be stuffed. That happening relies on one of you two being today's nk, which is why I am encouraging CEph to post more and maybe stumble across
Something dangerous to scum expe that would be nk worthy ... I guess that is out the window now that I have explained this to you! I guess I should also say at this point that expe is my top scum read.

[shannon]

Trying to do this from mobile.

There doesn't need to be an outlandish explanation for either ofnyoundying today because prior to today everyone was saying that the win comes from lynching you both. I think even cakes said that. To me, it's too easy and reeks of scum coasting along. I know it's not me, so it has to be expe.

Ct you are looking in danger of lynching because cakes has started to town read ceph, and he has said hat the win comes from lynching you both.

I will try to quote stuff tonshow why I suspect expect, if it doesn't work right on mobile it will have to wait until I'm on my laptop.

[shannon]

Bloody hell mobile ate all my d1 quotes.

I think expe has backed off Ceph. Note that when I was being considered for whip, I wanted to make someone loved. Expo said he wanted to make CEOs hated, and the general feel was that someone would immediately vote and win. i voted ceph before expe could make him hated (expo apparently not realising that he needed to message the mod) and then after that, expe decided to hold off. Cakes now has a town read on ceph so I think he is off the table today

Expe tried me a few pages ago, and I shut him Down by pointing out that his post is actually evidence of his scum buddy buddying. I have more evidence of same but
Mobile ate my quotes. Also ideas
For why max got killed.

Your reaction and cakes town read tell me I'm not going to get expo today. But it leaves you as the only viable candidate, since cakes now town reads CEph a bit. Ugh it keeps changing ceph to CEOs

Sorry if this is unreadable will post more later in laptop

[shannon]

OK, back at the laptop and thank goodness I don't have autocorrect here making everything weird. I hope you could make sense of the last post. Based on Expe's latest play, trying to tie me to Copper, here's what I think has happened.

I think there are two lots of buddying going on - Copper/Anti and Expe/Shos. This allows Copper and Expe to distance from each other, since their reads are different, and gives each of them a relatively powerful/experienced player to back them up. I also see the start of a scum read on Max, which quickly becomes unnecessary as they realise they can NK him for better effect - the WIFOM on it is crazy because Max didn't do much of anything.

Copper draws a connection between potential Scum Shos and Scum Max and Max defends himself in 93
119 the distancing starts, Expe will never ever vote Shos.


158 - Expe thinks he should vote Anti but it doesn't feel right. The distancing happens again, in 160 in which Copper is not following expe's reads 'at all'. The fake divide is solidified with Expe's vote on Anti in 165. Then there's another fake disagreement in 168.

I think I found the reason for Max's NK in 178 - "Expedience might be scum buddying shos".

In 216, Copper is saying Expe makes sense only as a partner to shos. With Shos being NKed D2 (so it's not an obvious connection with D1), this 'clears' Expe in our minds, as the whole thing is obviously a scum gambit. Conveniently at this point, Copper is happy to vote Anna. CT votes Expe but Copper starts to push him off of it in 229 by calling it a 'vanity wagon'.

Blah blah blah Anna blah

In 236, Cakez says gut feel is scum is one of Chilled/Expe. Conveniently D2, Expe hammers Copper and sails in to D3 on a town read, with Cakez thinking we need to lynch CT and Ceph to win.
Back in D1, Cakez votes Expe. This is the second person who has voted him on D1, and both times Copper or Expe has been there to either get the vote moved or otherwise make it look bad. A single vote against a player with a large EOD wagon on someone else shouldn't be a big deal, unless I suppose you're scum.

[shannon]

^^ I voted Ceph knowing that it was just one vote and not a lynch. If you'd hammered, I would have added that to my arsenal if I made it to LYLO. You didn't hammer, so I proceeded to chat with Ceph. It also gave us more info, namely, that you felt comfortable enough to go AWOL for two days. And also that you haven't whipped anyone yet, that we know of.

[shannon]

Yep, every one thought copper was scum, and I thought you were scum. When I saw the hammer my first thought was that you had hammered to try to distance yourself from copper.

The second part is me trying to sound confused so that if I was right, you wouldn't necessarily be on to me enough to NK me.

[shannon]

In my first game I stumbled upon the truth and posted it, but I didn't make a case (I didn't know how to really) so I got killed - they also thought I was a pr, which I was, but not the one they thought. This is my first go at making a case where there's a confirmed townie to convince, which is both exciting and nerve wracking.

I really thought about the win con cakes described, lynching ct and Ceph. I am not sure whether it's a gambit or whether he really thinks scum is in there. I was going to hold my tongue and just try to win in lylo if it came to it with expe, but I feel like I have to say something. No good me turning up dead overnight and expe and cakes auto lynching whoever is left because I just wanted to make it to lylo for my own sake (it would be my first 3p lylo). I could be wrong, but speaking up seems to be the right thing to do. I think it has probably made me a nk target but I don't care as long as we win!

And because I know what ct is going to ask: cakes described a wincon which would have made it pretty obvious who scum is if it had played out. I fully expected to make it through because cakes had talked about lynching ct and CEph, so expe + one of those would have made it obvious that expe was cruising along playing to cakes expectations.

[shannon]

It kind of feels like I'm just posting stuff to myself TBH, and that's OK. If I don't make it at least you'll know what I was thinking. (God, that sounds dramatic doesn't it? It has been a dramatic day, my poor wee doggy has a mystery ailment and we're waiting on tests).

[shannon]

FWIW I will be AWOL for chunks of tomorrow (I'm posting this at 7:15 PM) as we are ripping our kitchen out. Will still be checking in obviously (cannot go 12 hours without my laptop) but may not respond to immediate questions.

[shannon]

Real-life voting done, demolition imminent.

Interesting read and it's nice to see someone other than me posting. One thing I thought was interesting is that CT seems to be scum reading me, but in order to defend himself, he says there's no way Copper would ask a buddy to jump on a wagon with him. Copper, of course, asked both of us to join that wagon, so if that point is enough to clear him for Ceph then it should clear me for CT.

I am still on Expe but ultimately I'll go where Cakez wants to, he's the one who has to make the choice tomorrow.

I am not obsessed wtih 3P LYLO, but I do think it's likely - I'm pretty sure Expe is our last scum but no one else agrees with me, so from my POV it's over. It's also just mathematically more likely that if we take a stab in teh dark we get it wrong.

[shannon]

Gas fitter here disconnecting the oven, woohoo for a break.

I am not sure whether CT is a straightforward scum player, I haven't ISOd him outside this game. In general I don't think it's wise to rule out *anything* as a scum move. Scum will do what they have to to survive, and (in my admittedly inexperienced opinion) that will vary from game to game.

Hopefully Expe checks in soon.

[shannon]

I didn't realise we had so many players at a vote apiece.

I had a response to Expe ready to post but then I felt the need to reply to his vote on me. (Have you made me hated too? Am I L-1?)

Expe you've said that my thoughts after Copper's flip make no sense if I was town reading him, but I didn't say that I was. Here's what I did say (highlights are mine now).

Copper and Expe cross voting could be a team trying to make sure their partner gets away, or could by TvS. I would lean more towards Expe as the scum,

but I could see it could go either way - it could even be TvT and I would not be shocked.

I don't support a lynch on Cakez today.

I dislike Shos's enthusiasm for the VC just to see Copper whipped, I think it's mean-spirited.

Shos if you really think Copper is scum I'd like to see a case that I can be persuaded by, not just snarky comments.

I asked that we not vote Bella off until her replacement had a say, so we can work out whether it's a scum slot or just absenteeism. Given that it's now replaced (hi Ceph, welcome), I could support a lynch of that slot if we can't establish obvious towniness or if no one else starts looking really scummy - but I think we should hunt around a bit more first.

Someone asked why I was trying to meta people as certain roles, like reading CT as town - it's to try to make sure my conf bias isn't getting in the way. I need to literally ask myself, if this person was (opposite of what I think they are), would their posts make sense? I can't do that if I'm just reading generally, I need to write it down. I guess I could use a notebook or something instead of using the thread as my diary, so I appreciate that this might have been the implied point.

Clearly, I wanted a real case if I was to hammer Copper, not just an assertion of scumminess. And look what I pointed out about Copper and Expe cross voting. I hope that everyone can see that my most recent posts about a scum read on Expe have been a long time coming.

[shannon]

Ugh managed to write inside the quote and destroy it, hope you make sense of it.

Copper if you are town just tell us your thoughts please.

(after copper got shanked)

Ok I feel more secure in my read. Pointing out shannon mistaking maxous' death was also quite town.

Agree that this was a town move from CT. I scum read him for the attack at the time, but a while ago I re-read him in a town frame of mind to see whether it made sense as a whole and it did. So yeah, CT is town for me.

I think you are scum Expe. The only way I'm voting someone else at this point is if I'm in LYLO with them

Yep, every one thought copper was scum, and I thought you were scum. When I saw the hammer my first thought was that you had hammered to try to distance yourself from copper.

The second part is me trying to sound confused so that if I was right, you wouldn't necessarily be on to me enough to NK me.

Oh so if you're scum it's actually trying to chain lynches using knowledge of copper's alignment.

And are you actually saying that you didn't know if Cephrir was scum and you put him to L-1 so that if I hammered then you could use it as evidence against me tomorrow. That seems like... transparently not a town way of looking at things.

I'm not scum, and I'm not trying to chain lynches - I already thought you were scum before you hammered, and I had slight leanings on Copper - not enough to hammer him without a good case, but slight leanings. After you hammered and he flipped the whole thing crystalised in my mind. I had hoped that if you hammered Ceph and NKed me, it would be enough for Cakez and CT to put it all together, especially if I got time to comment after you hammered. But you didn't. Despite saying you were going to hate Ceph, you backed off and have now voted me, without saying whether or not you made me hated. Scummy as.

I don't want to say I'm certain about you, but I'm as sure as I can be without seeing your flip. We've been through the OMGUS thing before and you backed down and I unvoted you. Not this time.

VOTE: Expedience

Come out and tell me whether you've made me hated

[shannon]

Shannon has done so many scummy things, but cakez and ceph think that she is obvtown.

So yeah, I have practically stopped reading her.

Cakez knows me based on modding my only scum game, and if you read that game it's pretty easy to spot the differences (says she who doesn't ISO anyone). I will detail them for you if you want, but if you read it you'll see. It's my last completed game. I think it was D2 I started a wagon on one of my constant town reads and after he was lynched he apologised to town for playing letting us down, and kept me in his top town reads. So without trying to sound like a jerk, If I were scum I'd be doing a better job than this. The 'scummy things' you see are me making mistakes that come from not having perfect knowledge of the game, not from actual scumminess. If I were scum, I'd have counter-claimed Cakez and you'd have believed it.

[shannon]

This game looks a lot like what I"m seeing on TV, I think we're going to have a hung parliament

[shannon]

@mod vote count please, including the whip vote?

[shannon]

Can it be a gif of a cat doing something cute?

[shannon]

Replying to all Expe's posts in one go.

Is it unusual to keep a read to yourself when you're trying to work out whether it's right, and to avoid being NKed for really pushing it? Or to post things to get reactions? I don't think it is. Maybe I'm not very good at it yet, because I am only learning, but I think it's a realistic strategy.

I'm sharing my read on you now because 1) I might not make it to tomorrow and I want Cakez to be able to lynch you if I am NKed, 2) you've voted me (contradicting what you'd said you'd do) and given that you're the whip that puts me on the chopping block, 3) I thought the time wasn't right earlier.

I will let Cakez answer whether my scum game is different from my town one, but you can read it yourself if you want to. I would also ask everyone to consider what purpose a 'scum me' push on Expe today makes. Before I pushed, everyone was pretty much willing to lynch Ceph, and most importantly, Cakez thought a Ceph + CT lynch would win the game. For 'scum me', with a town read by Ceph and Cakez, that's a win. That's why I decided to speak up, because I strongly suspect that this voting strategy will result in a town loss. I strongly believe Expe is scum, he has been really clever about it and about how he and Copper have worked together and set things up, but he's the one.

[shannon]

CT - I was pretty null on Ceph's predecessor, I couldn't call her town for lurking but she had to be based on the Copper Expe pair I had in mind. Ceph's posts today all look pretty towny to me.

Ceph / Cakez - if I can't convince you of Expe then I will vote as Cakez does, we may as well be united in victory or defeat.

[shannon]

Cakez, it's your call. You're the more experienced player and our confirmed townie.

[shannon]

Did you read 913?

[shannon]

If I am NKed please look at Expe closely tomorrow.


VOTE: Chilled Tea

[shannon]

I don't think the whip can be applied to self?

[shannon]

Oh and just realised this from another game, happy 4th of July to the Americans x

[shannon]

Hmm.

Hope Expe comes back soon and tells us what he's decided to do.

[shannon]

Yay the server is back! Where are people up to?

[shannon]

I don't know what to do at this point. Cakez has said who should go, I've voted, but Cakez himself hasn't voted. Maybe he is waiting to see what you do, Expe?

[shannon]

Hang on what, why are you not telling us who you hated?! That's a bit of a misuse of your powers isn't it?

[shannon]

OK what just happened? Did scum forget a NK or something?

[shannon]

Aren't we meant to not vote anyone if there's four of us, because getting it wrong means scum win? Or is this different because of how it has happened? (If anyone would like to step in to their IC shoes and explain the finer points of this to me, please do).

[shannon]

Is there any way of telling whether it was forgetfulness or whether they hit Cakez? Because that could help us decide what to do today I think.

If indeed scum did hit Cakez then you're right, it's very interesting. I'm not sure in what way yet, I am still trying to reconcile it all in my head. I really wish we knew whether Cakez was hit or whether it was forgetfulness. If Cakez was hit, that suggests someone will hit him again tomorrow night (else why bother), leaving Expe, you, and me, in 3P lylo. I can't immediately tell which one of you thought that this combo would benefit you. I can see that ScumCT could switch votes to TownExpe with me for the win, or that ScumExpe could get CT to vote me.

Expe if you're town (which I still seriously doubt) it's probably a good idea to start replying to Cakez's, 951.

[shannon]

I don't want to get in the way of Cakez' questioning so I've just popped in to say that I am reading and I'll respond if anyone's asking me stuff. I'm still FOSing Expe at this point just for the record.

[shannon]

You're right, I did assume that one of us would be NKed. I don't get why scum would bring us to MYLO? (Did anyone else think that was likely?)

If we are wrong about Cakez having been hit, does that have any implication if we don't kill today? It just means it's 3P tomorrow and Cakez is one of the three, right? There's no advantage to scum if this is a fake out?

[shannon]

I can't claim not to be conf biased at this point. I still think it's Expe.

[shannon]

Well, at least we're all online at once to talk about it!

I'm flattered that you think I could have got away with being scum all this time CT, but I'm afraid you're looking in the wrong place.

I'm a bit all over the place here because Expe is now saying I'm obv town, even after I tried to lynch him yesterday. CT has returned to a scum read on me, and it was his (what I took to be) honest scum read on me back on D2 (?) for the Max thing that made me think he was town in the first place, i.e. he was genuinely following his own reasoning.

I can't tell who's playing me and who's being genuine.

[shannon]

I think I said earlier that I was letting Cakez ask his questions and trying not to interfere, but I can interfere if you'd like! I am also wary of tunnelling Expe. I don't know how much I can 'pursue' him beyond what I said yesterday? Would you like me to pursue you instead CT?

[shannon]

also Expe can you link some scum games of yours?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... B%5D=26364
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... B%5D=26364

I'm not scum very often, and when I am it shows.

And I could've done that without making myself look inconsistent and terrible?

ofc because why would he kill himself

Well, I am town.

I get you are scum reading me. Is it impossible for you to see this game where I am town and shannon scum?

^ this post is a borderline scumclaim

Phrasing implicitly assumes that I'm town, and the tone is incredibly propitiatory anyway.

VOTE: chilledtea because Cakez let me.

Yes obviously, that's why I concluded that shannon was mislead town. That was the entire foundation of my dilemma.

You don't mean what you're saying and you're just spouting theory at me.

My reads this game have been very flexible.

Basically this is where I'm at with the new stuff.

Points for CT being scum: 995 appears equivocal, leaves options open, Expe's linked scum game looks really really different from his play here so that would suggest CT, Expe's 961 case against CT.

Points for Expe being scum: Quickhammered Ceph and didn't explain that he'd whipped, 996 'clearly' town reads me and I can't tell whether it's fake, 954 pushes for lynch today when we could potentially go to LYLO instead (OK we might lose Cakez but the others would still have a chance to win?), 969 compares CT's play today with Expe's own scum play as though style is transferrable.

Cakez are you around?

[shannon]

*sigh* forgot to delete the quotes from the posts I was referring back to, formatting fail.

[shannon]

I agree with your assessment of the quick hammer, I think it was so anti-town it's not funny. I let the first one go because Copper flipped scum, but the second one was so much worse.

[shannon]

Sorry for my absence today, half the house is in demolition and I didn't have access until now. Looks like I didn't miss much though. Part of me is like just vote Expe and get the game done, the other half is like what if that's what scum CT wants you to do?

[shannon]

VOTE: Expedience

[shannon]

Well, feel free to vote me, that will make it one a piece

[shannon]

Scum CT, realising Expe is going to fight his lynch, tries to get the vote on me instead? Or Town CT, questioning my towniness?

CT if I were scum I'd have found some reason to change my vote to you around the time Cakez and I were talking about conf bias. With Expe voting you and Cakez town reading me, I could likely have convinced him to hammer you and I would have won for scum. But I didn't do that because *shock* I'm town and I'm scum reading Expe. The only way I'm changing that is if 1) there's a really good case made on you, 2) there's a scum slip, 3) it gets to the end of the day and Cakez makes the call.

I stand by what I said about D1, it looks like Copper and Expe are distancing and each buddying a different person. Also pretty damning is Expe's double quick hammer. It's either {coincidence D1 and shitty town play} or {scumminess and scumminess}. CT I'd urge you to take another look at him if you are town.

[shannon]

So you think CT is basically biding his time and waiting for Cakez to vote with me?

[shannon]

Cakez

- I know what you mean, I don't know how we're collectively going to endure another 7 days of this with little new content. I am starting to get to the point where I want this to end more than I want to win, which is not me! (I think it's because I'm working big hours at the moment and I'm just stuffed). I still think Expe is our last scum, not CT. Do you want me to vote CT nonetheless and give you the chance to end the game, or do you want to keep trying to puzzle it out?

[shannon]

OK then, it's up to CT to change votes now. Fingers crossed.

[shannon]

Lol congrats Copper!

I thought it was going to be a bit obvious that after saying I was going to be NKed, we magically ended up in 4P ...
But someone stepped in and said I clearly didn't understand the game mechanics so that helped. No objection to the scum PT coming out.

[shannon]

Yep, that's why I NKed you

[shannon]

From the scum POV I don't think the game mechanics were too scum sided, it was more that you all ignored your gut instincts in favour of following Cakez'. I mean, Anti had the whip D1 and could have been offed then and there, and someone picked up on that, but let me explain it away. (And I made that bed for myself by killing whip Shos N2, but you still let me get away with it). Expe was going to whip me D2 but didn't after I made a fuss and appealed to Cakez. Don't trust other people's reads, trust your own!

[shannon]

Yeah not sure how I managed to get the vote on expe, probably his quick and dirty hammer of ceph didn't help.

[shannon]

Yeah CT, you could've won it for sure.