Beyond the Gap (Dead & Spectator Thread)

[Lukewarm]

I am devastated

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this was the only game that I am in, so I had just fully logged out of my main on my laptop, and literally never needed to switch back and forth.

It was FULL PROOF.

But then I made a phone post.

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If Ichirin is scum, then what ever, but if I was wrong and Ichirin is actually town I genuinely don't know what about the way I pushed them would invoke the response of 2108.

Like, I scum read them, I voiced why I scum read them, I voted them, I tried to convince other people to vote them. That is like *how you play the game*

Like my only crime would be being wrong?

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I don't even think that I was talking about them overly much, as my focus was spread pretty wide. (I have been hyper tunneled before, but imo, this was not that)

I even spent a bit of time exploring other options

They were just consistently my strongest scum read.

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Daiyousei makes strange assumptions about how people play the game.

Like, part of their case against Kagerou assumed that a townie would not vote someone who was not their biggest scum read without great reason.

And their current questions for Yuuka assumes that a townie would avoid voting for the scum read of their scum read.

And I just don't agree with either point.

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I do not want to pursue another wagon, run them up, and get another claim out there, just to decided that the next person's role is too good to elim, and then we all collectively pivot back to Ichirin last minute.

Are we now at 3 claims?

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with both non-ichirin claims getting a "that is too powerful for us to kill day 1" reaction ?

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Kagerou claimed a vigilante shot, but did not full claim

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And I have already seen people specifically say that they should not kill Kagerou because of it. Same with Kioshi.

It is almost like I predicted this exact outcome from not just pushing through with the Ichirin elim lol

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I am pretty sure that it is just a regular vig claim, but just that kagerou did not feel like correcting eternity larva.

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So, I was largely on the fence about Koishi, but I actually think that I am tonally scum reading her more now then I was when I was alive.

My gameplan had been to use

my cop shot

on her tbh.

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My burning question is why did the Doctor/tracker/follower/roleblocker explicitly say that they did not want to be bodyguarded?

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Who did my slot randomly chose for their passive ability?

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Yuuka and koishi and aya are all super fucking obvious

I am like 100% confident in who I think Koishi and Aya are, I have 2 possible guesses for Yuuka. \

Also, Hi Notty!

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Everyone else is a mystery.

Did you know I was me before I goofed?

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Not being in anything stopped me from alt slipping

Didin't stop lukewarm :^)

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Hi Luke! I immediately sent an f to ffery and giffy when you slipped lol

I was so sad, I was having such a good time this game

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@Spiff, you did an amazing job.

Like, I think that you were the single most town read player, which is pretty impressive.

At least, I was repeatedly calling you the single most town read player so that you might have a bigger target on your back then me, but I guess that did not matter lol

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Did Clownpiece target Reisen with their spellcard?

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oh

For what its worth, I also assumed I could not use both

I had just planned to use the spell card lol

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I understood the spellcard + active rule, I just for some reason assumed that

a commuter would not work with a second ability.

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Random thing for posterity

If requested to be randomized from the choices

, the name was randomized between the choices with 50% chance for the first selection, 33% chance for the second selection, and 17% chance for the third selection, to prioritize the first selection as much as possible.

If requested otherwise

, the name was randomized from the entire selection of Touhou characters.

The mod did not give me this choice, which is why my 20 questions with the mod resulted in a less then accurate understanding of account name generation.

I BLAME MOD ERRORS.

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Did you ask the mod to give you three choices, or did you come with a preference?

Someone in thread mentioned being asked if they wanted to be chosen between their choices or between all touhou characters, and that did not happen with me. My assumption is that is got lost in me not having a starting preference.

[Lukewarm]

I...

Cannot fathom why clownpiece chose to activate their ability today

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I doubt I end up convincing Aya to redirect to you.

Like it's possible I would have been more aware of your positioning if I was still in the game, and not out here on the sidelines, but even if my read on you dropped, I don't know that you would have been at the bottom of the list

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I wonder if town buys clownpieces commuter gambit?

Also, who is the lucky clownpiece neighbor tonight?

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If *scum*

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Hi Skitter!

For what it's worth, I thought you were pretty townie day 1. Your flash wagon was very surprising to me

However. I probably would have gone through with your elim this day phase, just because the mechanics of it all were... odd.

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I'm personally surprised that the game plan ever was for you to suicide night 1 in the first place

That felt like a waste of your role to me.

Unless I am misunderstanding the role, it seems like at the very least you could have done something else night 1 and then suicide night 2.

Of course that being my choice is a little colored by me leaning town on your slot, but still

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Ali, you were my first correct main guess!

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Good Riddance???

He is salty scum, smh

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Their roleplay posting reminded me of their Joyboy alt, which is how I guessed them lol

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It was like kind of roleplay but mostly me being me

Your all caps shouting looked very similar to you as joyboy in the JOAT uPick, and I don't feel like you did anything like your opening for this game in any of our games together where you were on your main.

I had already decided you were you before you dropped that tbh

[Lukewarm]

Kaguya's claim feels like the game is at a critical mass of protective claims at this point.

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Ok got all the yelling out of my system and chilled out now, I'll condense the argument for why N2 doesn't make sense if I'm scum

Proof By Contradiction

1. Premise: Kaguya is mafia
   
2. Premise: Kaguya believes Clownpiece is Copping someone that isn't her
   1. If Clownpiece gets a Green Check then shooting Aya/Koishi and protecting them brings the POE to {Aya, Koishi, Clownpiece, Kaguya, Green Check} as town and {Reisen, Daiyousei, Kagerou, Marisa, Yuuka} - 1 as scum -> It is optimal for Kaguya to shoot in Aya/Koishi and coast to victory -> Kaguya does not make the Clownpiece kill as Mafia
      
   2. If Clownpiece gets a Red Check then shooting Aya/Koishi and protecting them brings the POE to {Aya, Koishi, Clownpiece, Kaguya} as town and {Reisen, Daiyousei, Kagerou, Marisa, Yuuka} - 1 as scum. Since at MELO all no-limming would do is kill a conftown, Kaguya can argue against no-limming and decide the lim at 4p MELO instead -> It is optimal for Kaguya to shoot in Aya/Koishi and coast to victory -> Kaguya does not make the Clownpiece kill as Mafia

This argument seems predicated on the idea that if kaguya was scum, and they said *I will protect you* to clownpiece, then they are suddenly townbinned for the rest of the game by the entire playerlist

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And the counter argument is that if you kill aya/kioshi last night, and then kill clown piece/green check tonight, then there is still clownpiece/green check in the game tomorrow.

But if you kill clownpiece last night, and aya/kioshi tomorrow night, then there are no clears left alive tomorrow.

And kaguya is just handwaving that by claiming that the first option lumps them in with the green check for *reasons*

[Lukewarm]

Yuuka not realizing that our clownpiece slot was entirely unlimable is funny to me.

I left the slot universally townread, and Ali promptly caught eternity larva.

Our slot was about as limable as the mech clears imo

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Aya also knew that clownpiece had a cop, but otherwise yeah.

An unclaimed cop who had falsely claimed to be commuting last night was killed, and Aya, Kaguya, and Dai are the ones who knew the truth.

Additionally, Dai says they were led to believe that kaguya would be using a cop protection on clownpiece.

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(oh and Dai died too i guess)

Dai came back

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Who is definitely about to get killed lol

Yuuka was also in my top most town read tier, of course eternity larva was too, but still

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Who does everyone think the remaining scum are?!

I think I'm at kaguya>resien>marisa

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But I am not doing any rereads of anything, so not super confident in my solve

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I'm feeling better about a reisen+kaguya solve personally

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@gif can i get spoiled please?

Spoiler: Scumz

Kaguya, Reisen

Spoiler:

I did it, I solved the game!

I'm feeling better about a reisen+kaguya solve personally

[Lukewarm]

Skitter you talked me out of trying to kill

Kaguya

day 1 >.<

That was like my only good read of the game lol

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I was pretty close to circling wagons on Kaguya, when you said this:

People blatantly going "hmm yes I seem to be only townreading the hyperposters this is a problem" and then not fucking doing anything about it is annoying as hell

Clownpiece - I think that this post is very townie, especially in the context of their Marisa vote earlier - it seems like they sincerely care about the 'sorting in the hyperposters' and are annoyed that other people aren't. I like that this mindset has propagated over tens of pages

And in response, I went back to Ichirin

[Lukewarm]

But I mean, Ichirin was always my stronger scum read, I just was resigned to kill my second strongest scum read for a bit, so its not even like my strongest scum read was scum either lol

[Lukewarm]

Skitts in case you are curious-

Spoiler: who people are

Koishi is Cabd
Aya is lld

Yeah, I had those two, as well as the same yuuka guess.

Although, with yuuka I had a different guess for the first half of day 1, but swapped to the right guess in the end

[Lukewarm]

Yuuka was super obvious by page 10 but I also think I have a lil more experience with them

There was a sequence of posts that made me think Yuuka could be unwd, and I had to stop believing that possibility before I could see the real answer lol

Which is also why koishi should be able to clearly tell Yuuka is town but I’m assuming they do realize they just can’t lolanongame it

I am not sure that he realizes who yuuka is, because he has yuuka in his bottom 3 reads atm

Or, I guess he could recognize them, but still scum read them even knowing his identity

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Kagerou using burglarly on Reisen

I thought this is exactly what Kagerou claimed to do last night?

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Also his day one read wall about Yuuka was what made me hard side eye him in the first place, because he clearly could tell who it was but wasn’t strong townreading him

I am relieved to see that I put Yuuka exactly where he belongs on my reads list (please ignore Eternity Larva's Placement)

Spoiler:

Town:

Eternity Larva

Yuuka

Town Lean:

Marisa
....

[Lukewarm]

I believe yuuka is currently talking about the night 1 roleblock, and for some reason, kagerou thinks yuuka is talking about Marissa ability for this coming night phase.

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This is such a cheeky post knowing the scum team

Spoiler:

Deadline:

(expired on 2024-04-07 14:43:23)

We should be deciding now if we're no limming or if we're gonna try to kill someone here

I'll make it simple.
Dai》》》》》》Yukka > No Lim

[Lukewarm]

Shush, you, you’re clumsy and careless and I wouldn’t have had to deal with half this shit if you hadn’t tripped up. Since you were correctly town reading me.

Also whole debacle with Kaguya, Dai, clown wouldn’t have happened

I'm sorry I left you yuuka

And while I almost certainly would not have claimed to Kaguya, I also dont think I there is a world where I would have directed Aya into killing Eternity Larva, so it might actually be worse right now, and already Melo!

Praise the force replace! It gave us a scum kill!

[Lukewarm]

ugh so frustrating

Yeah, I entered this thread to post

"What a frustrating end to the day"

[Lukewarm]

Yeah they are kinda just luckily pushing towards a scum elim

Spoiler: @spiffy

but don’t you guys have like a super governor spell card or something? I’m spoiled but iirc giffy mentioned it’s on flan

Our clownpiece role had a super governor.

But according to the game rules, any such ability would turn off at (m)Elo, so if scum also had one, it should be off the table for the rest of the game.
Real talk I don’t even know what a governor is

I wasn’t lying about being trash with roles and mechanics lol

[Lukewarm]

Yeah they are kinda just luckily pushing towards a scum elim

Spoiler: @spiffy

but don’t you guys have like a super governor spell card or something? I’m spoiled but iirc giffy mentioned it’s on flan

Real talk I don’t even know what a governor is

I wasn’t lying about being trash with roles and mechanics lol

Our clownpiece role had a super governor.

But according to the game rules, any such ability would turn off at (m)Elo, so if scum also had one, it should be off the table for the rest of the game.

(Whoops)

[Lukewarm]

Wow

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Know Your Own Role Challenge (impossible)

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Yuuka will get limmed tomorrow and that's that

I mean, Yuuka gets to quote Marisa's role flip with the explanation for what happened, so there is a chance that they can miselim Kagerou instead

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Anyway, I do feel bad for Marisa, who probably did not expect that to happen, and is going to get added to this thread and read what's been posted about her. Insult

and

injury added to illness.

A mechanics lesson learned, I hope.

Marisa does get to

live with

die with the knowledge that she is the only one to vote scum this day phase

[Lukewarm]

Also I thought Marisa was Ydrasse so I guess I was wrong!

That was also my Marisa guess, and I feel less dumb seeing so many other people guess that lol

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Yeah, Kaguya has been playing extremely well

I'm very impressed.

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Scum quick hammering that vote was the ending that this game deserved tbh

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Arguing that scum dont have enough goodies to deal with the town goodies with only 1/3 scum have flipped is certainly a choice.

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Arguing that scum dont have enough goodies to deal with the town goodies with only 1/3 scum have flipped is certainly a choice.

It doesnt help that town doesnt know the scum factionals (nor the remaining scum abilities), nor does this thread either.

That is kinda my point.

I don't feel like I have enough knowledge of what the scum has access to to make any kind of judgement on whether they have enough power to counter balance the town power.

If i were alive, i think I would scum read kaguyas argument because of that.

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385 kinda sucks in retrospect.

Oh

Kagero 1.0's first reads list is funny knowing the scum team.

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Yuuka and aya trying hard to right the ship this day phase.

I think aiming for the 5p win instead of the 3p win is drawing extra attention

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put me in coach, i'll be the new reisen

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The single post about how to handle voting, and then bouncing, was...

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What was the plan even

Aya said: I vote first.

Kagerou said: Aya should pick someone, and that person votes first. And then Aya gets to see the 1v1 interaction before voting.

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Kagerou townreaders: pretend you're maf and you know I'm town. Is Kagerou still town in that world?

What does this even mean?

Lol

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I mean, it's a winning strat if you've recognized that Aya wants Kaguya here. Play into her ego, get Kaguya, make it feel like you helped steer the decision to the "deepwolf in endgame" then try to win 3P against Yuuka-Kagerou. It's a valid hedge.

Agreed.

Reisens only real job at this juncture is to appear unaligned with Kaguya, regardless of who dies this day phase.

[Lukewarm]

This game is excruciating, and I am like 99% sure that I would have told Aya she needed to pick or I was gonna vote to force a cross vote like 2 irl days ago, because I am too impatient for this lol

As either alignment tbh

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Every single member of the town came to the right solve, but then kagerou decided to not play for some reason. So now, who knows what happens tomorrow

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I think you played this really well kaguya!

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Reisen posting does not feel like she ever actually tried to solve yuuka/kagerou.

Like, all of the posting this day phase would make me want to kill the slot more then I already did.

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God, Bell, these are all observations I made for you yesterday. Larvae AND Kaguya both wanted to exterminate the wolf, and not in a way that looks remotely like a bus. I know you see it, you're saying it out loud, lol.

Is this all for show or something?

I think he is trying to do his due diligence and let kagerou come post some before he commits, similar to how you played the last day phase.

It's a kagerou waiting room.

But unlike you, Bell just keeps on posting as he waits lol

[Lukewarm]

We'd honestly feel pretty bad for Aya if town messes up here

This game feels like Aya played so incredibly well that she earned a win

But, on average, I think that the scum team played better then the town (Aya Georg's play is a statistical outlier and should not have been counted), and thus also earned a win.

I don't think I will be mad at either outcome at this point.

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Its a very old meme. The original was like:

"The “average person eats 3 spiders a year" factoid is actually just statistical error. The average person eats 0 spiders per year. Spiders Georg, who lives in cave & eats over 10,000 each day, is a statistical outlier and should not be counted”"

It was then parodied into "____ Georg is a statistical outlier, and should not have been counted." But googling the meme dates it to 2013, so its old lmao.

The basic point was that the "On average, I think that the scum team played better then the town," statement needed an asterisk acknowledging you as an outlier that could single-handedly skew the data set, and in order to get a true "Average Town Play" you must not include the statistical outlier in the average.

[Lukewarm]

The Kagerou Townblock Trio :

Marisa / Kaguya / Reisen

i swear i have my reasons

can't belive i've almost caught all 3 scum day 1 i'm so good

You got there by page 16!

Making a readlists cause reading the thread is not working out

Besties

Marisa Kirisame - I could go into details but like she's just being obvtown

Eternity Larva - The second obvtown slot

Kaguya Houraisan - A common feeling i have with Kaguya posts is that she's making them for herself and not really for an audience, her overall play has also been decently protown

Reisen Udongein Inaba - maintaining that the Ascetic claim is prolly town, some individual posts like 314 or 313 i really like

[Lukewarm]

yay bell!