Elemental Mafia- Game Over!

[Xtoxm]

Yeh, started quick. Was quite surprised to see day and 3 pages.

This is my first game where you are allowed multiple lynches in day.

vote Farside

.

[Xtoxm]

I'm not sure I see the logic in this randomly speedlynching as many as possible, but I know with cults it can get very hard to win very fast. I guess we have multiple lynches for a reason. The chance of hitting a recruiter/wayne is about 1/5, looking at it from a purely random perspective.

vote Taff

[Xtoxm]

Perhaps Adel was saying "normal weight" on Mneme? Random vote, first post, on for a very short period of time.

@ DoS - <3! Toshirou pwns all...

[Xtoxm]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the only way here for a side to win is to be aligned with the winning cult, right? Jester had an alternate win condition...key word, had. Other than that, we're just townies trying to figure out how to get recruited by the winning cult?

Feels like a game of Hungry Hungry hippos.

Ofcourse town can win...This is not a game of scum versus scum, that would suck. The game is suffieciently balanced, I have no doubt.

unvote vote Mizzy

[Xtoxm]

Well...here goes...

I know that I'm unrecruitable. Thats about all I know at this point. I also know that each night a cult leader can recruit a cult leader. Each night worst case scenerio that means that up to four people are recruited into the cult. If each cult member targets a different person thats eight cult members possible right now. 12 possible tomorrow night. 16 night three. There's only 22 people left in the game. Thats not factoring in multiple recruitment targets and targeting unrecruitables. I find that scary cause we'll be minority pretty dang quick.

If it doesn't scare you then tell us why it doesn't?

I was recently in WEM mafia, that had 2 cults. Only 4 people were recruitable, 6 were unrecruitable (12p game). This game will also be suffieciently balanced out so a situation like that can't occur, i'm sure.

And wow, this is moving quick.

[Xtoxm]

Although I think Mizzy was wrong, she does seem sincere in what she's said, so i'll

unvote vote TSN

.

[Xtoxm]

I guess I never thought about it, but can cult leaders recruit other cult leaders, thereby nullifying that leaders ability to recruit? And also, if a cult member can be recruited into a different cult, perhaps we aren't as screwed as we think.

So would all cult recruits claim please, with the name of the cult you belong to, and then we'll make one of the other cult leaders recruit you, which would answer a lot of questions.

The CL's are unrecruitable, check the PM's in the first post, as is Wayne and the cops.

Your other question seems pretty irrelevant...That is only of concern to the CL's. FOS.

If someone already culted is attempted for recruit then it dosn't after town. I'd imagine someone can change cults, though, based on WEM mafia. Check UA's post, at the end of it.

[Xtoxm]

While I'd say the PM's sound like they can still be recruited, Xtoxm is right, it matters not to the town.

Incorrect, it matters greatly to the town. If someone is already a cult member, and they are recruited to another cult, that is one less vanilla townie who got taken away from the town.

...No it's not...

[Xtoxm]

If that happens it benefits town, yes. There is no way of knowing if it happened, and it is irrelevent to town, if someone moves from one cult to another, even if they were town a one point.

[Xtoxm]

I also don't like the "lynch the good players" comment.

vote LH

[Xtoxm]

Mneme - Why are you suspicious of Pooky (Mizzy)? I think what she was saying seemed to be genuine beliefs and believe her claim of unrecruited townie.

[Xtoxm]

No! DoS is my <3!

But seriously, I can see Mac's angle, but i'm not sure that it's the case...I don't think that's the type of argument a scum would come up with.

But this does look bad, interpreting it the way i'm inclined to:

I am very unwilling to trust what look like obvious scumtells at this point

What did you mean here?

[Xtoxm]

DoS, you will have to full claim on what you are if you want to survive, I think.

[Xtoxm]

Unless its confirmable it shouldn't be trusted.

Think I have to agree here.

Jester down, don't think there'd be a survivor in this game. Not sure what it could be.

[Xtoxm]

I think it should be pretty obvious I am claiming Survivor. I win with the town or scum... which is why at some point it will probably be in the towns interest to kill me, but not today. Since I am unrecruitable killing me doesn't affect the pool of people the cults can recruit.

Ohh, fastposted.

You are claiming plain survivor, with no abilities?

...I don't buy a survivor is massive game like this. Does anyone think it's likely? I've not seen it before.

vote DoS

Sorry.

[Xtoxm]

You are endorsing yourself to be killed later, thus losing yourself that game, so why do you need more time?

That just sounds like a CR to me.

[Xtoxm]

xtoxm, when you say CR do you mean Cult Recruiter (aka Leader) or Cult Recruit?

Sorry, yeh I mean leader. Gotten used to saying CR in my mini cult mafia, currently ongoing.

[Xtoxm]

It's a joint win.

I won't regret it too much if you are telling the truth, you say you'd be happy to help scum if it's going that way, but I really don't like the way you seem to suggest lynching you later...I don't think you're telling the truth.

[Xtoxm]

vote Ergo

He seems to be doing very litte.

[Xtoxm]

That would be correct, yes. I was busy over the weekend when the game exploded, hence I missed something like 14 pages of action. I'm playing now, though.

Ok, that's fair enough, just don't wanna let people use lurking as a strategy.

[Xtoxm]

That would be correct, yes. I was busy over the weekend when the game exploded, hence I missed something like 14 pages of action. I'm playing now, though.

Ok, that's fair enough, just don't wanna let people use lurking as a strategy.

But you didn't unvote...

That is an accurate observation, yes...

[Xtoxm]

That would be correct, yes. I was busy over the weekend when the game exploded, hence I missed something like 14 pages of action. I'm playing now, though.

Ok, that's fair enough, just don't wanna let people use lurking as a strategy.

But you didn't unvote...

That is an accurate observation, yes...

So, since you didn't again, you are voting someone for not having access? Sounds dumb/opportunistic to me.

No, the fact that he didn't have access doesn't change the fact that he has contributed little, or his potential for being a lurkist...The vote is something more of a precaution, to try and make sure he is playing now, as he says...Take a look at his isolation, is why.

Thinking about this now, I guess it's not needed unless he does actually continue like it, so I guess i'll

unvote

.

[Xtoxm]

No-one, as I was typing the response to armlx I realised it wasn't really needed to be left on, so I took it off.

I answered yours without really thinking about it, as I wasn't giving much of a comprehensive answer, merely a point in the form of sarcasm.

[Xtoxm]

vote Jedi

Kab's point is valid, i've seen CL claim SK before, even so I don't think we should let claimed SK live.

[Xtoxm]

It -is- interesting that we have an apparently flavorless roleblocker -and- a jailkeeper

Well we had the same for the Inventor...I'm not inclined to disbelieve them atm.

[Xtoxm]

I believe, an alt of DGB.

[Xtoxm]

I don't believe there is advantage to keeping a claimed SK around, he does not have the town's interests at heart.

CL's also can kill, if you check the PM's.

I'd rather look to someone who's be trying to keep quiet...Andy, he says he's struggling to keep up, but that doesn't change that he's done little...

vote Andy

.

I also think Jedi was telling the truth about his frameblock on Roland.

[Xtoxm]

vote Jedi

Kab's point is valid, i've seen CL claim SK before, even so I don't think we should let claimed SK live.

I can see where you're coming from.

But it wasn't just random agreement.

What I was referring to is WEM mafia. Doesn't look like anyone else there was here.

CL claimed to be SK when we knew we had to get rid of the CL, basically.

[Xtoxm]

Someone seems quite interested in claims and whether people are recruitable. FoS: Cavebear

Why did this bit about claims benefiting recruiters not occur to me earlier?

Claims of this nature are helpful to CL's, but I get the feeling Cavebear has pro-town intentions with the way he's going about it.

[Xtoxm]

I had the feeling you were subtley counterclaim him without actually cc'ing with your null argument about choice of target.

One thing too add - Questioning about when someone claims recruitable/unrecruitable I don't think is a good idea. Someone claiming to be recruitable could be trying to wifom.

[Xtoxm]

Plus you'd be the first power role that's recruitable...kind of iffy.

Actually, the Inventor claimed recruitable...And he did it right before suiciding, so it sounded pretty sincere.

[Xtoxm]

DON'T hint as to what he should/shouldn't say like Xtomx started to sort of.

I don't understand what you mean?

[Xtoxm]

Lol

[Xtoxm]

This apparently was missed from the official rules, but is a general rule in all BM games.

You must Unvote before you make a new vote.

Thanks,
BM

Andy just so happend to forget to unvote in that situation?

I don't buy it.

I think he was after some last ditch town credit.

[Xtoxm]

Andy is not cleared, and I don't buy his claim or his fake self vote. I think Muerrto is being very naive.

[Xtoxm]

That's not what you said.

The ruling is it's up to us to decide, which I agree with. Confirming a role is something a mod can't and shouldn't do.

[Xtoxm]

Andy is cleared, the chances he'd target me and cause this fiasco are literally 1 in 24(since he wouldn't track himself) and I'm confident he's cleared.

How is he cleared?

[Xtoxm]

Btw, with 4 recruiters and multiple power roles floating, wouldn't claiming his results that I didn't go anywhere be risky as hell?

Wouldn't claiming townie result in his lynch?

[Xtoxm]

You'd rather take the chance he's 1 of only FOUR people we want to lynch out of 18? I think your pressuring for lynching a claimed and mostly] confirmed tracker is noted though.

Um...You mean the same statistical chance everyone has..?

[Xtoxm]

I also said I won't and can't go into full details because it involves my role. You won't get any more than that. If you disbelieve Andy then you disbelieve me and you're saying we just happen to apparently know each other which means we'd have to be in the same cult already and one the recruiter and one recruited and had to set all this up night 0...

No that's not what I believe at all.

You originally expressed doubt on Andy, and he looks a lot like scum to me.

Why are you now saying he's cleared?

[Xtoxm]

Andy is cleared, the chances he'd target me and cause this fiasco are literally 1 in 24(since he wouldn't track himself) and I'm confident he's cleared.

How is he cleared?

By my role. Period. If it didn't cause a hubub then BM would've been just like no you're wrong. BESIDES, my point is why would you keep pushing a claimed power role when there's 4 recruiters alive? Especially sooo agressively.

Because I don't believe him...

[Xtoxm]

Well, if you say he's 100% percent cleared I will accept it that, but something doesn't sit right with me about this...

[Xtoxm]

I can agree with an ooba wagon, checking his isolation he's done very little for about 2 weeks now.

unvote vote ooba

[Xtoxm]

Well, if you are that sure...

Unvote

Looking back on xtoxm he's scummy for some of the reasons I found farside scummy (voting record, especially the Mizzy vote), and I can see a possible connection based on xtoxm's random vote and farside's weak attack, albeit a weak one at best. Rather lynch farside first and go from there though, so

Vote Farside

Why do you think i'm scummy and how am I connected to Farside?

[Xtoxm]

My random vote is scummy?

[Xtoxm]

No, but in context of you and farside being scummy to me its a potential leader-recruit connection especially with farside's weak attack on you.

So you think that, if that were the case, I would try to make connections to her?

[Xtoxm]

My random vote was not a scum distancer, I assure you.

[Xtoxm]

My random vote was not a scum distancer, I assure you.

This post helps determine anything how?

Well, I guess it doesn't.

[Xtoxm]

Isolation 2 might.

[Xtoxm]

His insistence on lynching Andy even after the claim was odd as well.

Because I didn't believe it.

[Xtoxm]

Sigh...Well, as i've tried to subtley imply:

Isolation 2 might.

Perhaps Adel was saying "normal weight" on Mneme? Random vote, first post, on for a very short period of time.

I thought that might have been useful had I died at night.

I don't know why your seeing connections from Farside to me that aren't there, though... (atleast, as far as I know)

I'm a temperature cop. Farside is not fire/ice cult.

[Xtoxm]

Welcome DR!

Still liking an ooba wagon after his recent response.

Are we the only ones who check the thread constantly? lol

I check MS quite a lot but I think i'm a diff timezone. I can't very well have a conversation at ~2am on a school night

[Xtoxm]

Explains the xtoxm -> farside connection (not visa versa tho).

Well what is the F - Me connection...Don't really see it myself...I think it's most likely the weak attack was just a weak attack...

[Xtoxm]

/hearty welcome

I'd forgotten you were in this game... O_o

[Xtoxm]

Yeah. Still don't like the false claiming SK is a cult leader idea. Pretty out there.

Check out WEM. It happend. I can find a link if you like. I don't think that's a point against kab, and I don't agree with letting the claimed SK live either ways, now ooba brought it up again.

[Xtoxm]

Starting to dislike the buddying hehe but I'm getting it from alot of people not just you so I guess I either seem town or naieve.

Maybe even a mix of both?

[Xtoxm]

I also don't like that Ergo is so against Ooba's lynch that he's posted but not voted. Wasting our lynch and leaving a recruitable townie alive is better than lynching a possible vanilla? I think not. Same goes for Korlash.

I agree, all I saw that boil down to was wasting time.

vote kabenon

.

[Xtoxm]

xtoxm, result please.

I checked Erg0 and he's not fire/ice. Looks like recruiting is more important than killing me, which I guess makes sense at this stage.

Ok, so I wanna see Andy dead by the end of the day

Likewise, i'd have investigated him save for the agreement he was being lynched today.

I still wanna know how the hell no one ever replied to my repeated comments about DGB completely DISSAPPEARING from the active posting earlier in the day.

Seems most unlike DG from the couple games i've played with her as town. But she was active early on, which is more than others can say.

I'm not seeing the latest Lowell wagon.

vote Pooky

I like this one more, he has lurked far to much. Would also be happy with Korlash.

[Xtoxm]

Xtoxm: Why did you choose to investigate me?

Because I found the way you delayed the bandwagon at the end of yesterday by posting without voting. And you weren't under much suspicion from anyone else.

[Xtoxm]

Why would a bodygaurd want to use his power N0? Or even a doc?

[Xtoxm]

Not a fan of the "Give me more time then kill me" thing.

And that argument is flawed because you say you trying to help town but you would not be on the side of town.

unvote vote Lowell

.

[Xtoxm]

Here's a question, though. We know Adel was a cop. Let's theoretically say for a moment that Adel investigated Mneme. Two possibilities : guilty, innocent. If Adel got an innocent, do you think she would have placed her vote on Mneme like she did?

Yes I do. She didn't follow it up or push for a mneme lynch, if she investigated mneme I think she got an innocent. Like I did for Farside. But would Adel try to crumb her result into the vote or was it just arbritary...

Happy with both the current wagons.

vote Korlash

Doubt we'll have this go through today, armlx.

[Xtoxm]

Xtoxm: !? For bodyguard = doc with benefits, the anwer here is easy.

That's like asking why a RB would want to use his role on N0 -- only moreso.

Well it turns out the claim wasn't what I assumed it to be, but a bodygaurd (I thought this was a protection that exchanges your own life) on N0, I wouldn't have done this, as you could potentially be saving a CR from the SK and sacrificing yourself. And with plain docs, I still think it would have been more worthwile to just let someone die rather than protect randomly.

But with the protecting from culting also, that changes it.

[Xtoxm]

His uberlurk for a while and what he did similar to Erg0 at the end of yesterday.

[Xtoxm]

I didn't really notice the directing scum thing...

[Xtoxm]

Everything xtoxm said is correct. Except the not noticing thing, because I definitely did.

Yeh..Not noticeing probably comes from not reading...Now that the weekends here (I got friday off yay!) I can try look through my week's neglected mafia games...!

[Xtoxm]

I would favor lynching Pooky before DGB because:
- If you consider fame as a factor he was already famous when DGB started.
- He participated much less. Posted only three times with no content. While posting regularly over the site.
- There is no power role claiming to have protected him from cults.

Well, your first point there I think is completely null. I agree with the other 2.

That makes me think about EK's claim of roleblocker.
In a game of Suicidal Dayvigs, Density Cops and Prison Wardens a simple "roleblocker" sounds out of place, doesn't it?

I don't think it looks particularly out of place. As Kison already brought up, the Inventor was called simply "Inventor". And blocking roles I can believe there are multiple of, with 4 cults.

Do we have more power roles than townies in this game?
It's even possible that we have already found all the Cult Recruiters and they are alive among the claimed power roles.
We should use the info we already have and check back all of them.

I doubt we have more power's than townies.

No..Andy's the only claimed power i'm not liking.

[Xtoxm]

I was going to go after Pooky for his power comment until armlx's point.

I think Andy is the way to go now...He's still posting very little, and I want him lynched today, did not like how he acted around his claim at all yesterday.

vote Andy

[Xtoxm]

We've been joking around for too long, as much fun as lynch the lurker is, it aint going to find us those cult leaders.

I stongly disagree with this.

[Xtoxm]

So how about we discuss some topics a bit before jumping from bandwagon to bandwagon?

This could be read as "How about we slow down the game a bit?"

Lol

[Xtoxm]

Why feel the need to post it again when I did respond to it?

[Xtoxm]

Andy might be a recruit. I heavily doubt he's a recruiter.

Why?

[Xtoxm]

xtoxm: Tracker w/ 2 correct results != cult leader

That's a good point actually.

That does make it less liekly he's a CR.

And that's who we want to be going for.

unvote

Not sure about the mneme and cavebear wagons.

[Xtoxm]

List of possible frie/ice recruiters:

DR
mneme
DGB
Kison
Cavebear

EK - claim RB
Andy - claim tracker

armlx - semi clear

Mac looks basically cleared to me. If we believe Mizzy's townie claim, and Muertto's semi claim.

[Xtoxm]

What logic are we using to semi-clear armlx? Not saying I disagree - he looks pretty pro-town to me, but it's more of a feeling. I could see him being a recruit, but I don't think he's a recruiter, and that makes him a less desirable lynch for the moment, certainly.

Andy's claim.

If Andy's bullshitting, armlx can still be a CR. He's looking pro-town to me too.

Cavebear and mneme aren't looking bad to me, i'd rather Kison/DR, but if a wagon forms on them i'd be happy to help out.

vote Kison

[Xtoxm]

unvote vote Cavebear

Don't like voting Muerrto.

What don't you like about my list?

[Xtoxm]

Xtoxm: no claims

Um..What?

...Rapidly changing my mind about these two, lol...

[Xtoxm]

Xtoxm: No need to. A then B is the same as B then A.

I don't understand?

[Xtoxm]

Oh, what I meant was I was changing my mind about recently stated opinion that I thought they both looked good.

[Xtoxm]

DR
mneme
DGB
Kison
Cavebear

These 5 would make a good 5 lynches for the rest of today.

Why you say that? Lack of claims?

Unvote

And why not place a new vote?

[Xtoxm]

Yeh, in 1237 and 1242.

And omg, i'm on at the same time as you guys!

Why am I online at 2:30am, lol...

[Xtoxm]

I don't see how that would work...If someone guesses your role you become a townie??

[Xtoxm]

Lol. Nice try. Lynch him please.

Yeh doesn't sound right.

Just full claim, if you're not lying.

[Xtoxm]

These are the ones not currently voting:

DGB, Erg0, Pooky, Farside, DR, Andycyca

[Xtoxm]

-_-

Feel like i'm playing mao or something...

[Xtoxm]

Hmm, double sarnath'd. That's not what I was expecting.

Unvote; Vote: Cavebear

This claim no longer explains why you wanted to know about whether people were recruitable.

What did you think he was claiming?

[Xtoxm]

Lie detector.

Never heard of it.

What is it?

[Xtoxm]

Also, i've never heard of SS losing his ability if he claims...Anyone seen this before?

[Xtoxm]

Yeh I was...I was NKed the night of the day I replaced though, by the damned vig (I was pro-town doc)

I'll go check it out I guess...

[Xtoxm]

Ah, I checked it out, sounds like a great role

[Xtoxm]

You guys believe the claim?

I've seen the SS role before bu i've never heard of this mechanic of it.

I guess I should sleep and think about it when i'm refreshed.

Too late for playing mafia...

[Xtoxm]

Random roles that lose their power for claiming are beyond the realm of possibility in even theme games.

You've really got it in for me, haven't you? I can assure you, my role is very much within the realm of possibility. The pm is very much within my mailbox, for that matter. Pity I can't show it to you.

No, no remotely competent mod, let alone BM, would put that role in any game. Random chance roles are terribad, the role ability (delayed supersaint) is completely dumb, and the fact that you lose the ability when you claim is absolutely unacceptable from a mod stand point. Sounds like you are trying to claim vanilla without doing so.

I don't think trying to outplay the mod is a good idea...There has been a variety of roles so far (first time i've seen inventor role) and I could definately see a SS being in this game, you should be thinking about whether you believe him, not if the role is present.

[Xtoxm]

I worded that post badly but I think the point comes across...

[Xtoxm]

Well I will

unvote vote mneme

then, happy with his lynch too.

Now, sleep!

Lol

[Xtoxm]

That said I still side more w/DGB if for nothing else but his crumb.

I crumbed too, and right at the start of the game.

DG is lying, i'm pretty sure there aren't 2 cops and i'm temp cop.

vote DG

[Xtoxm]

That said I still side more w/DGB if for nothing else but his crumb.

I concur with this and would also think one of the cults would kill xtoxm if he was a cop.

Well they clearly thought it more worthwhile to recruit. And looks like DG was planning to counter me anyway.

And that's meaningless anyway because even if I was lying the CR's don't know that.

[Xtoxm]

Nice lie. You said your farside vote wasn't a crumb earlier after you claimed.

I said the opposite, and and I quoted my crumb when I claimed, go look back.

I said I wasn't voting Farside because she was my recruit, which s probably what you are refering to.

[Xtoxm]

I don't know why your seeing connections from Farside to me that aren't there, though... (atleast, as far as I know)

I'm a temperature cop. Farside is not fire/ice cult.

No, you didn't.

Yeh, "Farside to me".

I voted her because I had an innocent on her, I explained this.

[Xtoxm]

This is my claim post:

Sigh...Well, as i've tried to subtley imply:

Isolation 2 might.

Perhaps Adel was saying "normal weight" on Mneme? Random vote, first post, on for a very short period of time.

I thought that might have been useful had I died at night.

I don't know why your seeing connections from Farside to me that aren't there, though... (atleast, as far as I know)

I'm a temperature cop. Farside is not fire/ice cult.

[Xtoxm]

I voted her because I had an innocent on her, I explained this.

You vote for innocents?

Yes, I voted to show who i'd investigated.

And I didn't follow it up or push her, I brought the vote off quickly, to show if i'd died at night that I had an innocent.

I don't see how that could have been portrayed as a guilty.

[Xtoxm]

Well they clearly thought it more worthwhile to recruit. And looks like DG was planning to counter me anyway.

I was? Show evidence that I was planning to counter you.

Um, you kinda just did...

[Xtoxm]

DGB countering xtoxm is pretty stupid idea if she's not telling the truth. If xtoxm is actually a cop, we kill DGB directly after. It would be a bad play for her to make.

Well she made that crumb so she's been planning to for a while, and the recruiters are running out of claims that won't get them lynched, so she's just trying to take me out before she dies, to give her cult a better chance.

[Xtoxm]

Well they clearly thought it more worthwhile to recruit. And looks like DG was planning to counter me anyway.

I was? Show evidence that I was planning to counter you.

Um, you kinda just did...

I was forced to.

Show me that I PLANNED to do this.

You made that breadcrumb at the start of the day.

[Xtoxm]

I don't buy a word xtoxm is saying right now.

Well your about to lose your temp cop. You'll still get DG, but there's still another recruiter and recruits that you'll have no help in getting.

The CR's aren't designed to make it to the end in this game, taking out the cop the tracks her cult is the optimal play when she goes.

[Xtoxm]

I am impressed with Xtoxm's play. He has gotten alot better at mafia as of late. He did fairly well and made alot less scum tells and lived awhile despite his claim. I'm guessing he recruited CaveBear night0 otherwise that claim would not have really benefited his team. Nice work. The Town played really well in this game as they made use of all their lynches. Nice work to them all. And I must admit that even I thought Kison was earth cult. He is "cursed" as town, I should have remembered, but then again he actually got a power role this time.

Hey PF!

I personally think this is my best performance ever as scum!

Muerrto was blatantly pro-town for the vast majority of the game, I fail to see how anyone could have thought otherwise.

Trudt me to pick out the action immune for my N0 kill, lol

Yes it is funny. I am still waiting for Xtoxm, Farside, or Mizzy to post. I want to know if they would have recruited me given the chance. I also want to know if the inventor kept his skills after recruitment. It doesn't exactly say he looses them up above.

I dunno, I wasn't gonna recruit on N0 anyways...Depends on your play and if I thought you were recruitablt after that. If i'd made N3 my next plan was to recruit Kison.

And Cavebear said he was telling the truth about his role, btw.

[Xtoxm]

xtoxm, why not recruit N0? Recruit > kill by far.

I don't think so.

And I didn't want to recruit N0 when I figured the chance of sucess was probably <50%, I wanted to wait and try and get reads on who I thought was recruitable. And chance of sucessful kill is, I think (thought) >90%.