Open 78: Friends & Enemies (Over) - before 608

[PokerFace]

All /in

[PokerFace]

Woah, I'm late to the party and there is alot of people I have never played with or even heard of before here.

Tekkactus's avatar reminds me of some old cartoon show about some kind of Living Starship.

icemanE also has a Good tastes in cartoons.

Rolfcopter and kortz must be blind. Grimmy's avatar cleary depicks a satirical joke about how much gas prices suck.

Dcorbe needs to chill and get an avatar too.

Anyone else besides me remember that Mr. Blonde was the name of a Bad Guy in the Perfect Dark Game genre?

I have heard of and/or played with you farside22, Rishi, and Surye, so hello to you guys aswell.

Cel

e

blok

i needs to go behind bars

Vote: Celebloki

[PokerFace]

Hello everyone. I will be trying to get in a big post in the near future, probably tomorrow. I've been a little bit under the weather as of recent. Just skimming through it would appear that farside is currently at L-1. I would prefer no one hammered at this time simply so I could give some comments on all that has been going on. The only posts I have made so far were my confirm post and my random vote post. I'd like to actually say something relevant to day 1 before it ends. Tekkactus has also made that many posts. I'd like to see his view of the current situation as well.

Since my random vote is rather useless considering all that has gone on

Unvote

see you guys hopefully tomorrow.

[PokerFace]

Ok I'm here. Wish you guys had posted less to make this easier on me[/jk]. Ok here we go...

_________________

@Surye,

You voted decorbe near the end of the random stage and then jumped off when Rishi and Farside began to wagon him.

Oh my, another San Diego scummer.

Unvote, Vote: dcorbe

Unvote

Okay, my SD Scummer vote is pointless now

Did you unvote because A) You felt the random stage was over B) Didn't like the wagon on dcorbe C) Other. Basically what made you think your vote was now pointless. Feel free to give reasons for thinking as you do. As well as say anything else about the current situation.

_________________

Post #58 by korts throws up a red flag for me. Defending yourself to an acusation on bad logic is fine, but you present no real case on Mr. blonde when you vote him so you just OMGUSed. Does bad logic make him scum or foolish? Feels wierd with how you vote celbloki later because he OMGUS someoned (See posts 73-75 for that last part)
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 79#1093079
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 26#1093126
more on korts further down.

_________________

icemanE's early comments feel alot like he was playing both sides of the fence. First he mentions the issue about dcorbe needing an avatar.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19#1093019
Then he jumps on Rishi and votes Farside when he was originally voting rishi.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 64#1094264
Then he jumps back at dcorbe.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 37#1094937
I talk about his more recent comments later on in this post.

_________________

Rishi was the first person to start voting dcorbe for a rather nonsence reason. For the moment I agree with the case Tekkactus has put forward on him. I think it is better to get reactions out of a player by saying the reasons when you vote. That way you let the individual know whether it is a serious vote or nonsence. Him presenting those reasons in the post after his vote just looked like an excuse to stay on the wagon and avoid scrutiny.

I don't think I contradicted myself. I provided NO reasoning in the first post where I voted for dcorbe. Sure, I mentioned the lack of an avatar, and it's easy to infer that is the reason that I voted for him (I maintain that people on MS has *NO* sense of humor), but if I provided a reasoned analysis, I wouldn't have gotten any reaction. If I truly thought that dcrobe was a loose cannon, giving him a logical reason for a vote wouldn't have provoked him, would it? I wasn't seriously trying to get him lynched, anyway. Seven votes is a lot.

If you really believed this then you would have never given the reasons you gave in post #80 until after the dcorbe wagon had ended. Also ironically he does give the reaction you seemed to want after post #80 in dcorbe's post #82. I think if you are town you'd have orginally explained your reasons better and perhaps pursued some of the suspicions you pointed out in post #99. Not pursueing them is like needlessly throwing around suspicion.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19#1095219

_________________

Farside voted dcorbe to join the no avatar wagon. I seem to remember the first newbie game me and Farside were in together where there was a player who did not have an avatar and did kinda buddy up to other players. That player was oprice in newbie 520.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6924
I don't see real life meetups at a bar as buddying up conversations so I feel she may have been reaching because this doesn't feel like the farside I've seen before. I will say I disagree with roflcopter's opinion in post #102 though. That doesn't look like she was buddying up to you. Looks more like she was analyzing your comments of her as you wagoned her. I know a few players who's play style involves analyzing people that wagon them by self voting themselves day1 (UltimaAvalon, Niv). Farside did the same kind of analyzing of Mr. Blonde in post #100
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 54#1095454
Korts and Grimmy jumping on farside's wagon for that comment feel off to me since I don't se it as buddying up. Seems like Grimmy may have just been looking for a safe place to vote where he won't get in trouble for lynching Farside (see post 117). Farside's reaching on dcorbe buddying and the bad reasoning she had to wagon dcorbe in the first place are suspect at this moment while I would not acuse her of buddying up to anyone herself.

Farside's claim is pretty simple. I'm surprised Korts and IcemanE jumped off the wagon for it. Korts gives some underming logic and changes his opinion in posts #139 and 142. I'm puzzled of what to make of that at this moment. I think I'll get a better opinion of him based on any reactions he has to my comments and I want to see what he thinks of rolfcopter vs farside in this analysis he alludes to.

do you have any problem with me doing a PBPA on you, rofl? Because if you do, just say so and I'll skip to voting you.

no doing a pbpa is fine i am just interested in what in particular made you jump immediately to me from farside.

Your reaction to the claim. Of course, it was the obvious claim, and the safe claim for scum of either faction... Damn! Okay, I see where you're coming from now.

Anyway, now that I have it scheduled, I'm doing the PBPA. I don't like your reaction to the proposition.

I've reconsidered regarding farside's claim. But the choice was because you were the first to pounce on farside's claim. Now I realize that this was a bad reason, but your reaction to my proposition telling enough for me to do that PBPA.

Here is what I don't like about Icemane's response to the claim

Well at L-1 all I have is my claim as town.

At least lynching me no power roles are revealed, which gives the scum nothing but guessing for the night.

I don't think I'm reaching. Please look at those who were on my wagon. I don't think my vote against dcorbe is wrong. I say look at him tomorrow.

Hmm... I initially glanced over this post, but look back at it I'm actually sort of inclined to believe it.

Though scum often say something like "I'm just a townie so at least we aren't losing anyone important",

the "look at the people on my wagon, especially dcorbe" part of the message sort of hits home. That last piece of the message would hold no water if farside turned up scum,

and farside seems to sort of concede instead of getting overly defensive and fighting back.

Her comments about the offtopic bar discussion and wide-reaching suspicions are still suspect, but, at least for the time being, I'm going to believe the claim.

unvote

Overdefensiveness is not a direct scum tell. There was a mafia discussion thread about that awhile back and if i find the link later on I will post it in the thread. In my 'current' opinion overdefensiveness can only become a scumtell if it reaches the point where the player's responses and attacks come off as OMGUS every other post. OMGUS is a scum tell, but overdefensiveness certainly isn't.

The conceding and not lynching a power role part of Farside's claim come off as a bad appeal to me. Her post 134 also looks very bad because i firmly believe over defensiveness is not a scum tell. If dcorbe was OMGUSing you, he would have voted you alot sooner. The wagon on him earlier looked like crap. It looks like farside is frantically try to grab reasons to stay on dcorbe. I want to see her comment on some of the recent posting more.

_________________

In closing people pinging my scumdar slightly at this moment include grimmy, korts, and icemanE. Grimmy most slightly. I suspect Farside and Rishi more than slightly. My comments towards Surye are mainly questions and not so much suspicions.

FOS: Rishi & Farside

I'll later vote the one I feel is most scum based on their responses to me and some recent postings.

[PokerFace]

Found the link to the Mafia Discussion thread about overdefensiveness
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7684
I thought I posted in there back then, but I guess not. At any rate I mentioned my current view of overdefensiveness in this game so I guess that works out. Since you are not suppose to discuss ongoing games outside of the game thread I recomend that no one necro/post in this linked topic since that could/would break some site rules.

[PokerFace]

Well I was going to wait for Surye to answer my question before I posted again, but it looks like that may be a lost cause.

@Mod-Qman, you should prod Surye since he has not posted since the 6th

Nice post, Poker. I should have time a little later tonight to weigh in on what you say about everyone else, but while I have a few free minutes now I'll just respond to what you've said regarding me.

icemanE's early comments feel alot like he was playing both sides of the fence. First he mentions the issue about dcorbe needing an avatar.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 19#1093019
Then he jumps on Rishi and votes Farside when he was originally voting rishi.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 64#1094264
Then he jumps back at dcorbe.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 37#1094937

What I think is strange is that a "no avatar" wagon formed in the first place. That wasn't my intent - earlier in the game I asked Grimmy to get an avatar too, and I didn't and still don't really see how not having an avatar is a scum tell in any way. One of the strangest things is the difference between how people reacted to Grimmy not having an av and dcorbe not having one. Check it out:

Grimmy - why no avatar?

He finds them suspicious.

I think it goes beyond that. Avatars find Grimmy suspicious.

Just a few jokes, etc, no votes. Now dcorbe, same question to start it off:

dcorbe - why no avatar?

Oh my, another San Diego scummer. Unvote, Vote: dcorbe

Note: I don't think Surye's vote was related to the avatar issue, but nonetheless it's the first after my post so I feel its necessary to mention it. Moving on:

obvious scumtell

This is in response to my "dcorbe, why no avatar?" post.

Sidebar - I meant to ask you, Blonde, whether this comment was aimed at me or dcorbe. Either way I don't really follow how its a scumtell and I assume you're joking, as you did when I asked Grimmy to get one.

So far, the reaction seems to be pretty similar to when Grimmy didn't have an avatar. Then this happens:

Unvote
Vote: dcorbe
for not voting anybody

Yes I think I see some of your point. It should be noted that Blonde treated grimmy and dcorbe differently over the avatar thing.

...and the bandwagon begins.

Actually, I play in a lot of newbie games as an IC. I'd say that 90% of them will get an avatar if asked.

Unvote, Vote: dcorbe

Someone needs to join a newbie game me thinks.
unvote:
vote: dcorbe

Those two votes seem incredibly opportunistic to me. Rishi

actually

seems to be voting dcorbe for

not having an avatar

and Farside claims we were getting good info out of that bandwagon, to which I said:

The only real conversation coming out of that BW is "why are you voting me because I don't have an avatar" which is a totally reasonable question.

It was a bizarre bandwagon - those last two votes seemed to have been placed as "middle of the road" votes, which after a lynch don't seem as important as the first or last, making it appealing for scum to place them, especially if there's a readily available excuse.

Anyways, as far as me playing both sides of the fence, I think you're talking about this post:

I'm gonna have to FoS: Rishi as well.

However, I agree with what rofl has said thus far regarding dcorbe (who, when he's trying to be very sincere, uses his real name in his posts, apparently ^^^), especially this:

rofl wrote:

dcorbe wagon is being ridden by scum, methinks


As such, unvote, vote: farside.

I'm actually talking about two different issues here, but it's poorly worded. I agreed with dcorbe that Rishi was pushing the wagon oppurtunistically (I actually stupidly FoS'd him while my vote was still on him from the random stage which he was keen to point out) but I also agreed with rofl that dcorbe's wagon was being ridden by scum. The way the initial post reads makes it seem like I'm saying I agree with rofl that dcorbe isn't scummy, but what I really meant to say was that rofl was right in that scum were probably riding dcorbe's wagon. Therefore I put my vote on farside - so in the post i express my suspicion of both farside and Rishi, and accidentally make it seem like I'm not suspicious of dcorbe. Which, as evidenced by my more recent posts, I obviously am. Keep in mind that we're dealing with two scum teams here - Rishi and Farside could be teammates OR be on separate factions - one could even be teammates with dcorbe - either way, those are my three biggest suspects right now.

:good posting: but I still wish you said it better first time around

Here is what I don't like about Icemane's response to the claim

icemanE wrote:
farside22 wrote:
Well at L-1 all I have is my claim as town. At least lynching me no power roles are revealed, which gives the scum nothing but guessing for the night. I don't think I'm reaching. Please look at those who were on my wagon. I don't think my vote against dcorbe is wrong. I say look at him tomorrow.


Hmm... I initially glanced over this post, but look back at it I'm actually sort of inclined to believe it. Though scum often say something like "I'm just a townie so at least we aren't losing anyone important", the "look at the people on my wagon, especially dcorbe" part of the message sort of hits home. That last piece of the message would hold no water if farside turned up scum, and farside seems to sort of concede instead of getting overly defensive and fighting back. Her comments about the offtopic bar discussion and wide-reaching suspicions are still suspect, but, at least for the time being, I'm going to believe the claim.

unvote

Overdefensiveness is not a direct scum tell. There was a mafia discussion thread about that awhile back and if i find the link later on I will post it in the thread. In my 'current' opinion overdefensiveness can only become a scumtell if it reaches the point where the player's responses and attacks come off as OMGUS every other post. OMGUS is a scum tell, but overdefensiveness certainly isn't.

Hmm... another poorly worded post on my part, it seems.

Note: Mod, it looks like the quote might not format properly, if there's an issue would you mind correcting it? I don't see quote tags inside my quote to denote the quoted passage inside it. Thanks.

What I mean to say in the post is essentially this: farside's claim seems more town than other claims I've seen. That doesn't necessarily mean it's a valid claim, but without a deadline in sight, there's no reason to rush a kill, so for now, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt as there are many other subjects to investigate and at least three more scum to find.

The whole overdefensiveness bit doesn't really correlate to what I tried to get across - I only mention overdefensiveness because she DIDN'T do it, so Poker, a mafia theory question: Do you mean to say that the LACK of overdefensiveness, which is what I point out in the post, is a town tell, a scum tell, or a null tell? I couldn't quite tell from the post, because you point out that overdefenisiveness, which her post lacks, is not a scum tell, but you also say you don't buy the claim. In that sense, if she HAD been overdefensive would the claim look any different to you, or would you be just as suspicious of it?

Anywho, thanks.

Yay I brought up the overdefensiveness thing because I thought you and Farside were implying that overdefensiveness was a scum tell. And thinking that way, can sometimes be a tell. But from your reaction I gather you may have just been using bad logic when viewing the claim for that aspect. I guess I worded something a bit off too.

Farside's claim was not overdefensive. The lack of it I'd say is a null element. And I think you may have misunderstood what part I didn't like about the claim. I didn't like

Well at L-1 all I have is my claim as town.

At least lynching me no power roles are revealed, which gives the scum nothing but guessing for the night.

I don't think I'm reaching. Please look at those who were on my wagon. I don't think my vote against dcorbe is wrong. I say look at him tomorrow.

That part looks like a bad borderline emotional apeal in the aspect of take one for the team and trying to be matyr. As far as buying her claim of vanilla I always see a claim of vanilla townie as a null issue since proving or disproving a vanilla claim is rarely possible.

_________________

Again, the purpose of my post was to test reactions, and not just dcorbe's reactions. I wanted to see what the other players had to say. In the early game, there isn't much to go on and so you start cases on people to generate discussion. The discussion leads to more suspicion, either on the person being pressured or others.

The main reason I abandoned suspicions of dcorbe: 1) I hadn't had as much time to log in lately. 2) I think people have done more scummy things since then. When I unvoted, I pointed out other behavior that deserved a closer look.

Now should we look at dcorbe for his general defensiveness? Probably not. But he is still on the farside wagon, which doesn't seem all that well thought out to me. Sure, she's said a couple questionable things, but it looked like people were trying to quicklynch her.

I am especially wary of those who jumped on and then jumped off in an incredibly short amount of time: icemanE and Korts.

As far as Mr. Blonde, Grimmy and dcorbe, I am curious why you guys are still voting for farside. I didn't see must justification when you placed your votes.

The bolded element of this post is good. Though I don't like the idea of nonsence wagons to gather reactions, it should be noted that Rishi is now analyzing a

non-non

senceable wagon (farside's wagon) in order to gauge the opinions/reactions of those on it. Which he should be doing.

I'd like to know why Grimmy is voting Farside. What reasons keep him on the wagon.

Despite Rishi saying Grimmy gave some reasons I don't recall Grimmy going into great depth. If i missed that post then point it out to me other wise I want to know why he is still on. I don't believe Farside was buddying so what reasons does he have.

_________________

Korts PBPA of Rolfcopter is a piece a crap. I wouldn't call most of rolf's posts weak tells. There are people contributing alot less then rolfcopter is. I don't see how any of it was tells. Being selfconcious is something everyone does regardless of alignment. And your conclusion kinda sucks

Summary: No real substance, therefore no real read. Not especially scummy, I don't see the effort (although now I'm just being a hypocrite) what with all the one-liners. Gonna have to do a more serious reread.

You have no real read after all that effort and all the stuff you call weak tells. Feels kinda like you are back tracking and perhaps undermining your own logic just like your response to Farside's claim.

do you have any problem with me doing a PBPA on you, rofl? Because if you do, just say so and I'll skip to voting you.

no doing a pbpa is fine i am just interested in what in particular made you jump immediately to me from farside.

Your reaction to the claim. Of course, it was the obvious claim, and the safe claim for scum of either faction... Damn! Okay, I see where you're coming from now.

Anyway, now that I have it scheduled, I'm doing the PBPA. I don't like your reaction to the proposition.

_________________

Okay I read through. Couple of things. First of all I would say Pokers comments about defensive or non defensive is really a non tell. I don't agree with the article, but knowing how I behave in some instances I guess it is a non tell. Now that I've see dcorbe playing in other games I see that in general he gets defensive when any pressure is added. Since the games are on going I won't say anything further about them, but I think it's just the way he is.
Finally on the I'm buddying up comment. I'm not sure why you think I'm buddying up. I figured in reality I would be lynched. Claiming townie usually does not have people unvoting. I get iceman's point on his reasoning for unvoting, but Korts is so back and forth on issues that just struck me as scummy.
First he unvotes after the claim. Then he talks about doing a PBPA on rofl for some odd reason. Why not do it on everyone. Then I find the PBPA really reaching to make minor scum points. I feel this is a set up to make rofl look scummy day 2 after I'm lynched and shown I was truthful in my claim.
On to those I find townie:
Rishi
Poker
Rofl
Iceman
And no I'm not explaining my list. I am not giving scum an advantage, but I would like to warn some people to be careful what you say and how you talk to people. If I can see something that looks like protection and knowing there is a mason group I'm sure the scum can too.

unvote:
vote: Korts

I'm glad to see Farside is making a better opinion on the status of over defensiveness. The town list thing Farside gave doesn't bug me much. Some players talk about who they think are town and some don't. It's basically a priniciple matter of showing others who you suspect and don't. But if she really didn't want to give the scum an advantage, I think she wouldn't have done it in the first place. With reasons or not. Also the fact that her belief that IcemanE is town, quickly turning to considering him as scum should also be noted.

pretty sure this post makes it obvious that iceman is farside's scum partner.

farside's claim makes her the right lynch. she was found scummy enough to bandwagon into claiming, and her vanilla claim makes her either scum or expendable. this may seem like a harsh judgement, but i'd rather lynch a vanilla townie and get the information out of it than pussyfoot around til deadline and have to scramble to find a lynch.

I agree with my lynch being best for the town. I'm not sure why iceman is being wishy washy about lynching me. Could be town or scum looking town since scum would know I was telling the truth. I still don't like Korts comment about wanting to do a PBPA on you and kept asking you if you were okay about it. Plus his PBPA giving the some what scummy for each post made was just crap to me.
To answer my list of pro-town people. I would not want to say too much on my thoughts on why I believe them town.

Farside gave her town list in post number #188.

Which was after post #175

. Rolfcopter quoted 175 in post #206 and suddenly Farside's opinion changes in post #208. That smells funny to me.

IcemanE's recent comments are looking a bit better despite the odd feelings I get about him still being between the fences. Rishi's comments are looking a little better aswell. I think I'll just keep an eye on them. Farside's comment are still off and Kort's recent comments really suck. Farside, Korts I think I'd be up for lynching either one. Not sure if they're on the same teams as Celebloki suggests, but as long as their both scum in some way that's good enough for me.

Vote: Farside

She is now at 5 votes which is L-2. She was only at L-3 earlier, check the top of the page.

[PokerFace]

@Grimmy,

Yay I'm still waiting for your comments on the Farside wagon. Why are you with us?

I'd like to know why Grimmy is voting Farside. What reasons keep him on the wagon.

I'd also apreciate remarks from

Surye

on this and anything else he wants to bring up, since I have no real read on him at this point.

@Surye,

You voted decorbe near the end of the random stage and then jumped off when Rishi and Farside began to wagon him.

Oh my, another San Diego scummer.

Unvote, Vote: dcorbe

Unvote

Okay, my SD Scummer vote is pointless now

Did you unvote because A) You felt the random stage was over B) Didn't like the wagon on dcorbe C) Other. Basically what made you think your vote was now pointless. Feel free to give reasons for thinking as you do. As well as say anything else about the current situation.

_________________

It should be noted that tekkactus was not the first to make a statement like this:

You keep on saying this, why? There is no benefit to the town by withholding this information.

Mr. Blonde made one simular.

Farside lists townies:

On to those I find townie:
Rishi
Poker
Rofl
Iceman
And no I'm not explaining my list. I am not giving scum an advantage

Giving absolutely no reasons <= this is not "scum advantage" if we know: it could be town advantage. Now it just creates confusion.

Bit scummy I think.

Also I am not certain I would call either of those statements as fishing. I supose I'm kinda in the Middle on that. Maybe that's not the best choice of words, but to me it looked more like those were "WTF are you doing reactions" as apposed to "i want role info, give me moar!"



And I think IcemanE's reluctance between dcorbe and farside should be looked at tomorrow regardless of farside's alignment. So should Kortz, since his reaction to her claim and his general backtracking/wishy washy logic looks rather telling to me. On the subject of Kortz giving another PBPA, this time on dcorbe, I got nothing wrong with him doing it as long as he does it today! Not getting around to it during day 1 while we have more then enough time with no deadline, is just odd. And he better actually have some real conclusions without backtracked logic. I want to know if he is really considering dcorbe to be scum or if he's stalling instead of scum hunting. I still wouldn't mind seeing him do it. Dcorbe's playstyle was a little OMGUS like earlier, while I've been busy focusing myself on other players who I think are much more likly scum, but his recent comments look pretty good. I think this statement may be true after all.

I'm sure as the game progresses you'll see that I can be a little more level-headed than I'm currently being given credit for.

Dcorbe's other comments on page 10 responding to IcemanE looked alright to me especially post #232. IcemanE has some nerve discussing fence sitting since he was doing that somewhat earlier. Also something about him saying "bussing" rubs me the wrong way. Saying dcorbe was bussing is making an early inferance that farside is scum. I wonder if icemanE "knows" that she is for certain.

I don't want you to remove your vote - I just want you to be consistent about whether or not you want to lynch her. You essentially contradict yourself in those first two quotes - you want to lynch her but have reservations because the pace of the game is moving too quickly for you, and if you want to slow it down all you'd have to do is take your vote off. It's fence sitting.

No, I don't need that. But you've given just as many reasons why she shouldn't be lynched as you have that she should, so for me it just looks like you want SOMEBODY lynched, essentially whoever has the biggest bandwagon at the time, and farside's is an easy one to ride at this stage. It seems as if, tomorrow, you want people to look back on your posts from today and say "Dcorbe was on the wagon, but he wasn't the first or last vote, and he sounds protown when he says X and Y".

It looks like bussing.

_________________

Yes I changed my mind about Iceman it was his most recent post that i found scummy. For tomorrow after my lynch I really think you guys need to look at
kort and iceman more. Good luck.

I guess your opinion changed not just because of rolfcopter's post #206, but also because of IcemanE's posts between post #188 and #208. Wait a second, his only content post between there was #199. I fail to see anything wrong with that particular post. If you are really town you'll give more reasons for thinking as you do about whose scum instead of continueing to advocate your own lynch. You are more so throwing out allegations then following them.

_________________

Looking through Kortz analysis there are a few things I don't agree with:

EDIT, almost forgot: in the beginning of the post, farside tries to discredit Mr. Blonde, a possible attempt at clearing Mr. Blonde's suspect of the moment, hey it's farside. Or another possible explanation is she tries to dismiss Mr. Blonde's vaguely scummy attacks with meta reasoning.

weak/very weak scumtell

Like I said before it looked to me like she was analizing Blonde's interactions with her. I've seen alot of scummers analize those on their own and on others peoples wagon's in order to really determine if those players are really scum. This comment looks like Kortz is reaching a bit. A couple of other statements he makes are a bit of a stretch aswell.

Post 11:

If I could put my finger on it. dcorbe converstations and comments just arent' sitting right with me. He brings up the Sd thing and now is getting pissy with others mentioning it. You know that when someone is too nice thing. (i call it a politian smile in RL) well that's what I feel reading him is someone who will smile while talking to you then stab you in the back the moment you turn around.

This seems like misrepresentation: dcorbe isn't getting pissy with others mentioning it, he's getting pissy when people keep reasserting that this topic should die, because the topic won't die this way exactly because of the constant reassertion. weak/strong scumtell.

And the feeling that dcorbe's intentions are the opposite of what he says

is fine, but

farside including this as a point in the case against dcorbe

is also a weak scumtell

More backtracking/wishywashyness on his on logic. His change of opinion on her claim should be noted.

Post 12:

Well at L-1 all I have is my claim as town. At least lynching me no power roles are revealed, which gives the scum nothing but guessing for the night.
I don't think I'm reaching. Please look at those who were on my wagon. I don't think my vote against dcorbe is wrong. I say look at him tomorrow.

The claim. It's the obvious claim for scum, and even if it's true, it's not confirmable.

_________________

I'll say it again I'll support both a Korts and a Farside lynch today. I'm actually starting to lean towards Korts more heavily now. To show that I mean what I say and to give sometime for Surye, Celebloki and Grimmy to make more contributions I'll move my vote to Kortz.

Unvote, Vote:Korts

.

I doubt any player/scumbag is stupid enough to end this day before they can give more input, nevertheless It should be noted, that I am still willing to revote/or hammer farside (assuming she is as L-1 then) once everyone has had their say. Also atm I am still yet to look at Blonde's and Rishi's recent interactions they looked kind of interesting at first glance. If Rishi, IcemanE, Kortz and Farside really are all the scum, beers will be on me at the after party.

[PokerFace]

Sorry I ain't posted in a while. Got a vacation to go on soon and so getting ready for that has taken a bit too much of my time.

Ok I read through post 248. Yay I think i may have been reading to much into IcemanE's words there since he did explain most of that stuff already. I think that perhaps I was trying too hard to get a read on him at that moment since I originally had an early scum read on him then he posted some stuff I liked and then back again. I'll explain my current view of him later on.

I also read Rishi's 235 and Blonde's 238. Rishi's reason for voting Blonde confuses me.

My vote is on Mr. Blonde because I'm not 100% sure he's savvy enough to realize he should be more helpful as scum.

I don't entirely understand that reason. I at least understand the comments Mr. Blonde brings up. And I'd like know if Rishi has a response to Mr. Blonde's post #235 since he never directly gave one.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#1110765

In any event in reading their posts, I feel I should bring something I found a while back up, since some aspects of their posts might be going too far. "too townie" fallacy. Scum will scum hunt in this game since there are two scum groups, but they won't be truly/honestly too helpful. Being too helpful gets you night killed. Getting crosskilled by the other scum group is not something scum wants. People with stuff to hide usually ain't helpful for fear of the night kill.

_________________

I read over Korts 251. I don't see the logic behind calling some posts:

Post 23: again, trying to rationalize a D1 mislynch.

And I hate this comment

Go see for yourself.

Overdefensiveness without reason is the sign of paranoid scum

. weak scumtell

can't say I agree with most of his opinions on the weak scum tells either, but its not like disagreement is also a scum tell. His replacement has a job infront of him.

Other people with jobs infront of them include Grimmy, Surye, Celbloki and Mr. blonde. Grimmy and Surye still ain't gotten to the questions I asked them earlier at the start of this post.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 85#1113685
Celebloki and Mr. Blonde just need to post since they ain't done it in a awhile. I got no questions for them at the moment except "Can't you post?". These people just need to talk. I am having trouble trusting any kind of read on them. I fear they may be going to far under the radar. with their activity.

I feel Rishi and Tekactus have posted more content than the aforementioned. The recent hate for Tek and Rishi on the aspect of low content posting/lurking is BS because others have done worse. The only good piece of evidence I seen on tekkactus possibly being scum, is right here:

I'm starting to see why farside is L2.

-

Distancing, and then defense

, which comes from post 255, quoted above in this post.

The distancing - defense model of scum partners is a fairly common tactic.

Tek distances but does not vote her when she's near a lynch, then begins to defend her when people start to fall off her wagon.

Tekkactus's view of Farside did change dramatically in there.


I also very much like the recent views icemanE brought up on korts.

My suspicion of Korts is based mostly on what I mentioned earlier - the scum in this game need to be protown for more reasons than just to appear that way. If this were a game without two scumteams, I'd say his PBPA's were just extraneous and more or less unnecesary - the targets he choses to analyze (other than farside, perhaps) seem opputunistic, as they tend to focus on the leading wagons (other than the rofl PBPA which was just strange) especially when you look at the results they yield - almost entirely weak scumtells that are debatable in their validity. Since this a two scumteam game,

I see these PBPA's as an attempt to both appear protown and potentially cast suspicion on whoever happens to look scummiest at the time

- he's gotta get rid of those other scum too.

unlike

Korts, whose PBPA's are relatively shallow attempts at DEMONSTRATING protownness

, and...

I feel alot better about icemanE because of postings like this. His comments about Rishi and Tekactus lurking are a bit off when you consider other players are worse, but either way He is definatly moving out of my original 4 scum list.

If Rishi, IcemanE, Kortz and Farside really are all the scum, beers will be on me at the after party.

I'm agreeing with IcemanE and Kortz but can this say or instead of and so I can get that drink.

So sadly no one might be getting drinks bought by me, except for of course me.

_________________

As far as the recent icemanE and dcorbe conversation goes I think it did make them both look childish aswell. dcorbe's vote on icemanE for those reasons isn't the greatest either. I think there are scummier players out there for you to vote and scumhunt. As far as the idea that icemanE and dcorbe are scum together goes, I severly doubt all that was distancing. If they were to turn up as scum together, my jaw would drop ten stories.

question for pokerface, rishi and roflcopter: what scum groups do you see and why?

There are players I see as scum (you and korts). And there are players that have just pinged my scumdar at some point or another as i have explained. But there is a good chunk of players I am having trouble getting descent reads on. Because players in that chunk can pretty much go anywhere, town or in any scum group at this point, I don't feel as comfortable as I did before when I gave that 4 player scum list. I'll say I still consider you and Korts as scum, but as far as who your partners are or if you are each others partner's goes, i am uncertain at this moment. If this general view changes I'll let you know who I think is in what group.

My vote is going to stay on Korts for the time being. If his replacement doesn't pull all the same stuff, perhaps I'll move it. I can't really ask his replacement to defend that stuff since they don't have the same brain, but I can ask the new player to try and do/look better. I'm going to look back on a couple of the things farside said earlier on Korts. Do you have any new suspicions you want to bring up on any player? Since the big wagon on you has faded alittle, you have not really gone into great lengths on who you believe is scum. You feared your lynch was inevitable and that is no excuse to ever stop scumhunting on your own.

[PokerFace]

Looking at posting records and this rule:

12: If you do not post for 4 days without notifying me you will be away, you will be prodded. Not posting within 48 hours of the prod or getting prodded more than 3 times may result in replacement.

@Mod - Qman, I think you need to do some prodding.

Mr. Blonde and Surye ain't posted since Monday
Celebloki ain't posted since Tuesday.

Something else I want to point out to players. If you'll notice my sig mentions a vacation I will be going on later this week. I'll remind you all about this again later and try to get in some more posting before I go but I still felt i should say something about it at this time.

[PokerFace]

Hello everyone, I am going to try and get a read in of the thread later on tonight so I can say something more before I go on my vacation. I still have a bit of packing to do so hopefully I'll get time to say something tonight or tomorrow morning at the latest. If I am unable to do so, then I will just have to catch up on everything after my vacation ends. If you'll look at my sig you will see

I'll be on V/la June 26th-29th with no access. I should be able to contribute again on or just after the 30th

should I not say something tonight or early tomorrow morning. Cya later

[PokerFace]

Hi all. I am back from V/la. I'll catch up on things post something relevant when possible.

[PokerFace]

Hey all. Sorry I ain't done shit in awhile. Got back from vacation and I chose to catch up on my other games first as Independence day approached. I will catch up here momentarily. Expect a post up sometime tomorrow.

[PokerFace]

Alright post time

People who have been Lurking 'most': Killa 7, Surye, Blonde, do you have any further views you want to give? I'd like some kind of read of you guys today. The worst lurker here is probably Killa 7. has he done anything since he has come in?

posts 331 and 332 bring up some interesting points on tekkactus. 331 did not address/attack dcorbe and he went on to comment on it anyway. Tek's defense in 346 looks alright. I am not sure I'd agree with Blonde saying all the points in 331 or 332 were guess work.

Dcorbe's play in relation to lynching and bandwagoning looks odd but I've ocassional seen that from town players. you can get more info from wagons then from randomvoting/lynches.

Posts 364, 365 and 368 show good evidence that Muffin head could be scum. I like how 365 shows almost reminds me of korts's contradicting logic.

Additionally, you come very close to contradicting your own reasoning in your post.

Now I understand how this caused a wagon due to the fact that farsides vote was based on the fact he doesnt doesnt have an aviatar which has nothing to do with this game.

then people decide they vote him for a wagon

Now surly we cant lynch farside based on that one scummy post.

After this Muffinhead analyzes more about the farside wagon and doesn't really defend himself from IcemanE's comments in the posts that follow.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 87#1129387
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 09#1129409
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 38#1129438
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 96#1129496
Judging by how icemanE went back towards dcorbe and rolfcopter in a later post it looks like muffin's defense was a deflection that got icemanE to look elsewhere.

_________________

Post 383 is rather reached accusation coming from Surye since a great case rolfcopter has not been brought up. Scumbuddy?

Post 391 Killa seven still ain't contributing much and his change from korts to dcorbe is unexplained amongst his last posts.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 22#1123422
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 45#1133345
Killa 7 is easily the worst lurker. Surye is also a bad lurker as Rishi's posts 393 and 395 outline.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 24#1133724
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 60#1133860
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 91#1133891
How quickly Rishi drops his case on surye looks odd. Rishi has checked in a few times before getting prodded and promised doing a re-read. did you get anything more out of any re-reads you wanted to bring up?

_________________

Farside's comment in 403 make sence but her vote on him feels a bit OMGUSish as the tide of votes being to turn towards the lurkers.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 31#1134231
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 93#1134593
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 16#1134616
her recovery and responses to Surye on this topic are just satisfactory

Just after this everyone begins to jump on Mr. Blonde. Is it all just because he is lurking or do you all think something more about his desire to want a lynch.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35#1135235
This game has gone on awhile and we probably do need a lynch, So who would you like us to lynch and why Mr. Blonde. If you want a lynch you should be in here voicing support for a lynch instead of just droping in.

_________________

Tekactus's and Muffin's recent comments about Mr. Blonde look like two guests arriving late to a party and just wanting to play the party games. Kinda feels like muffin was hoping on wagon for bad/little to no reasons

Ok im back now with plenty of time. Im currently happy with a blond lynch as he isnt a big loss.

vote mr blond

Claim or die. Give us a reason not to lynch you in ur next post.

@tek- I would be intrested to see which game it was that was 72 pages long. Cause for a mini to go 72 pages is incredibly long.

if your role pm does not say 'scum with mr. blonde' you should be voting for him right now.

I think this is a bit of an overstatement.

Blonde, you're at L2. I don't want to put you into hammer range until you at least get a chance to defend yourself.

If you opt not to or give a poor defense, though, I have no problem lynching your ass into proverbial grass.

Wow somone seems afraid to vote.

fos tek

You should know that no one will put the final vote on blond untill he explains himself. If anyone does hammer before he speaks then that person is very likely to be lynched tomorrow.

Also i would like to hear from both grimmy and pokerface as neither of them have contributed anything since I entered the game. Still dont like surye either.

As things stand muffinhead's is not as scummy as korts but he is not a great improvment in my view and there is something I want to know from muffin before someone hammers Blonde. Muffinhead can you explain you reasoning for the blonde case? the blonde case took flight over the last 2 pages with little detail and I am wondering why you are on there. Your claim or die comment makes me wonder if you are just on there to see a claim. There isn't much to claim in this open setup and so I can see any player searching for claims as being suspicious.

I find muffin/korts, tekkactus, and killa 7 most suspicious at this moment. I will not yet name a forth nor do I see a need to hammer Mr. Blonde yet at this time.

[PokerFace]

Well rofl the bunny sees the point I was going to try and get across. All i really wanted to know was if you had a real case on Blonde and weren't just joining the party in order to get a claim and I believe I found my answer.

Well first of all he comes in after not contributing much whatsoever saying lets just lynch somone no matter who they are.

Now when someone is on L-1 you usually get the most information out of a player. Orginally the aim of my vote was to get some info out of him to see how he would respond under the pressure. Now from my personal experience

all of the townies that have been on L-1 have ended up coming up with an extradinary explination of why they should be lynched

. however MrBlond hasnt responded yet in 72 hours.

To sum it up orginally it was a pressure vote but if he doesnt respond in 48 hours then im happy to lynch him. That is why I responded rishi and if you had a look then I said no one should put the final vote on him untill he responds.

You originally joined the wagon for information. What all information are you looking for? And what townies are you refering to?

_________________

As far as the deflection goes, you only briefly addressed IcemanE's strawman accusation after it was re-explained, and then you quickly went back to commenting on Farside's wagon.

@ Muffin - You have set up a strawman with the way you frame the above quotes. You turn everyone's reason for voting farside into "she had one scummy post". That is inaccurate and is not representative of the way that part of the game unfolded. There were three seperate reasons provided for the votes. Blonde's was the closest to what you give as a reason, but it is still inaccurate, as Blonde states that he was voting her for the purpose of bandwagoning. Bandwagoning and lynching are two seperate things. Grouping all three players votes into one category and giving a single reason for it is a clever way of subtly pinning suspicion on players without actually having to come out and say it.

The use of this tactic returns you to the realm of scum, in which your predecessor, Korts, dwelled.

unvote - vote: Muffinhead

Well first of all can you give a clear reason to why you are voting me as it doesnt make sense to me. All I can do is answer what you have said.

First of all what are you going on about when you say I use tactics? I explain my oponion of the scnario and you say im using tactics with those 3 quotes. I couldve used a couple more different quotes but those were the first ones I saw.

The point of the quotes were to show that there was only one scummy post which got farside on L-1 for and that NOT ONE person had a good long proper reason to lynching farside. Yet there were people ready to end the day.

Well first of all can you give a clear reason to why you are voting me as it doesnt make sense to me.

It isn't all you. More than half of it is Korts, who you replaced, who I wanted to lynch before you replaced in. You can refer to my reasons for wanting to lynch him on previous pages. Your latest post is what drew my vote back to you/Korts.

First of all what are you going on about when you say I use tactics? I explain my oponion of the scnario and you say im using tactics with those 3 quotes. I couldve used a couple more different quotes but those were the first ones I saw.

What I'm saying is that the way you frame those three quotes implies something. You say

then people decide they vote him for a wagon

which is more or less accurate. However, after you cite the three votes, you say:

Now surly we cant lynch farside based on that one scummy post.

That implies that the reason all three of those people voted for farside was because we thought she was scum based on one post, which is inaccurate. It's providing your own reason for other people's actions. It not only ties those three people in together, but it also implies that they had a bad reason for voting, when in fact, you provide the bad reason. It's a fallacy.

The point of the quotes were to show that there was only one scummy post which got farside on L-1 for and that NOT ONE person had a good long proper reason to lynching farside. Yet there were people ready to end the day.

There is a difference between putting someone at L-1 by way of bandwagon and actually wanting to lynch that person. People form bandwagons to put pressure on someone. They don't necessarily want to lynch them when they place their votes, but people tend to drop more scum tells when they are under pressure - so lynching is not always the end goal when a vote is placed, yet your post attempts to make it seem as it that was the intent of all the votes when in fact you've invented that intention yourself.

Ok before I start I need to explain why the reasonsing for voting farside in the below quote is poor

. Voted you because I consider you to be the safest bet - as far as I can tell you have an equal chance of being scum as you do being town, and since you didn't claim one of our three power roles it's not a big risk in day 1.

Now as you know there are 3 masons in this game. Now unless they are incredibly bad, they will make sure that a mason isnt lynched. Therefore there is a 45% chance that any person we lynch today will be scum.

It isn't all you. More than half of it is Korts, who you replaced, who I wanted to lynch before you replaced in. You can refer to my reasons for wanting to lynch him on previous pages. Your latest post is what drew my vote back to you/Korts.

Well I have no control over what korts has done before i replaced him. So if I get lynched for his actions then i will be really po since ive posted alot in this game but ill know personally that I personally done nothing wrong.

That implies that the reason all three of those people voted for farside was because we thought she was scum based on one post, which is inaccurate. It's providing your own reason for other people's actions. It not only ties those three people in together, but it also implies that they had a bad reason for voting, when in fact, you provide the bad reason. It's a fallacy.

You are right. For some reason I got the feeling that everyone wanted to lynch farside. Proberbly because you and dcorbe put votes back on her and ive seen nothing really scummy from her recently.

Since thats the case then @dcorbe- what is your reasoning to put the vote back on farside? As im STILL waiting for ur orginal answer.

ty for explaining icemane

I understand that defending korts is not something you can easily do so I guess I rather expected some greater explanation about the strawman things that just addressed you and not korts. You do understand that there were other reasons people were on farside right?

_________________

And btw this is the first page rules on prodding and the like in case anyone has forgotten.

12: If you do not post for 4 days without notifying me you will be away, you will be prodded. Not posting within 48 hours of the prod or getting prodded more than 3 times may result in replacement.

Well then that's all I got for now let's see what blonde has to say.

[PokerFace]

Damnit! I'm was currently in 4 games and I got killed in two of them yesterday! Those are first times I've been night killed in the year I've been on the site.

Thanks for the awesome flavor with my death Qman.

Bah, go town!

[PokerFace]

@Grimmy,

Yay I'm still waiting for your comments on the Farside wagon. Why are you with us?

I'd like to know why Grimmy is voting Farside. What reasons keep him on the wagon.

...Later on in that same post...

I'll say it again I'll support both a Korts and a Farside lynch today. I'm actually starting to lean towards Korts more heavily now. To show that I mean what I say and to give sometime for Surye, Celebloki and Grimmy to make more contributions I'll move my vote to Kortz.

Unvote, Vote:Korts

.

I doubt any player/scumbag is stupid enough to end this day before they can give more input, nevertheless It should be noted, that I am still willing to revote/or hammer farside (assuming she is as L-1 then) once everyone has had their say. Also atm I am still yet to look at Blonde's and Rishi's recent interactions they looked kind of interesting at first glance.

If Rishi, IcemanE, Kortz and Farside really are all the scum, beers will be on me at the after party.

I had 3 outa 4 of my early reads right. And I did hold suspicions of grimmy just not strong ones. A lurker got the best of me. I was pressed for time in RL, I usually don't join 4 games at once but I did it anyways in hopes of being a mason. Cause I didn't have enough time I tended to trust my mason buddies and not try to persuade them and everyone else to follow me.

I smelt bus when Muffin voted Grimmy there. Rolf jumped on muffin and then muffin voted grimmy. Lynch your lurkish scum buddy to look good and seal things in end game where Rolf will be gone via NK and farside and K7 will be there to trust you. Muffin had big time oportunity with that plan.

I was on the right track but didn't have the best fuel. Oh well. GG to grimmy and everybody else too.

[PokerFace]

And no don't misread me and think I am blaming my mason buddies. I blame myself for not getting heart into it with time and spirit focusing myself elsewhere and the fact I trusted icemanE some too. IcemanE did some work of his own to get me off him. I should have tried harder with what time I had to get people to think more like I did early on GG all

[PokerFace]

Oh wow! I just skimmed the quick topics of the scum.

Rishi was all over let's kill poker.
Muffin was all for killing mason's night one and farside night 2, but Grimmy got him to hunt mafia night 1 suggest rishi and icemanE then and icemanE again later on.

Grimmy made the right kill choices to eliminate the other group BUT he lurked alot. Muffin did alot better than Korts imo and was able to get people like farside to trust him. There are some games where I ignore lurkers and focus on those scumier imo. Oh well.

Who still wants to go out drinking?

[PokerFace]

Ok then I will pay for you and grimmy and maybe some of the others. Won't pay for everyone since i only got 3/4 and that was the deal.

Qman you'll be Designater driver for us won't you?

[PokerFace]

WOOOHOOOOOOOOO. Good its a great feeling to win when the odds are aginst you. This I believe is my greatest win as I came into the game with 3 votes on me and argubly the most likely to be lynched at the time.

First off I hope grimmy has no hard feelings for me starting a lynch against him. Since I started it, it wouldve made me highly unlikly to be lynched tomorrow. Just having a brief look at the masons and werewolves it seems I was a target for both of them lol. I personally believe the fact that I replaced korts ended up benefitting me so that I had an extremely low chance of being lynched even if I looked town.

It was a great game to play and fun to play with all of you here. And ty for modding qman and keeping the game going as there is nothing worse then a mod who doesnt send prods. That I really appriciated. Also curious to hear more of your thoughts as you watched it from the sideline.
as for poker there are sum people here who cannot drink yet

Will sum up the game tomorrow after a good nights sleep

So my buss smelling was correct, but when you are dead you can't do anything.

And I think you mean won't get nked because you replaced kortz. In your guys Quick topic you guys refered to nk as "our lynch" too.

GG Muffin. If Qman wants to drink, then you can drive for us.

[PokerFace]

Looking at the Quick topics it doesn't look like many thought I was a mason. Who all thought I was?Did anyone see these breadcrumbs in my early posts?

Woah, I'm late to the party and there is alot of people I have never played with or even heard of before here.

Tekkactus's avatar reminds me of some old cartoon show about some kind of Living Starship.

icemanE also has a Good tastes in cartoons.

Rolfcopter and kortz must be blind. Grimmy's avatar cleary depicks a satirical joke about how much gas prices suck.

Dcorbe needs to chill and get an avatar too.

Anyone else besides me remember that Mr. Blonde was the name of a Bad Guy in the Perfect Dark Game genre?

I have heard of and/or played with you farside22, Rishi, and Surye, so hello to you guys aswell.

Cel

e

blok

i needs to go behind bars

Vote: Celebloki

...Also I am not certain I would call either of those statements as fishing. I supose I'm kinda in the

Middle

on that.

M

aybe that's not the best choice of words, but to me it looked more like those were "WTF are you doing reactions" as apposed to "i want role info, give me moar!"

A

nd I think IcemanE's reluctance between dcorbe and farside should be looked at tomorrow regardless of farside's alignment.

S

o should Kortz, since his reaction to her claim and his general backtracking/wishy washy logic looks rather telling to me.

O

n the subject of Kortz giving another PBPA, this time on dcorbe, I got nothing wrong with him doing it as long as he does it today!

N

ot getting around to it during day 1 while we have more then enough time with no deadline, is just odd...

They were probably unecessary but I thought I'd do it just in case lylo got rough.

[PokerFace]

Rolf and Dcorbe start the middle paragraphs and they were my mason buddies. a little obscure. Anyone see that?

[PokerFace]

Careful there Muffinhead, your pride is showing, but then so is mine with the 3/4th read. You did alot of work to earn trust after korts left. I am alot like Rishi in a sence I don't let up on replacements. I kept my vote on you after korts left after all. Me, rishi, and datte dying certainly helped you. But even then you played well day 2 and 3 getting very little flak overall. So yes, you certainly did some good work with only a little luck at your side. You do deserve a win after Korts messed up a bit and you only messed up on the mason claim thing. You had only one mistake in my view, so congrats. Also had you bussed grimmy and made it to day 4 with farside, Surye and K7. I think you would have won with that plan too.

I went on vacation for 4 days and during those 4 days the Blonde Wagon formed. I don't know if rolf pushed it just to hide the whispers, but so was everyone else. I came back from that vacation without the time and certainly not enough charisma to get everyone behind yours or a different lynch. I remember only finding blonde a little scummy. Maybe i should have tried to defend him and not just weakly attack you. This game has taught me to trust my instincts more and to work on better ways to persuade people into seeing my instincts.

I was absoutly shocked though when icemane came up as the other ww. I was convinced he was mason when poker came up mason. Thats why I was asking those questions to icemane about poker on day 2. That even convinced me more thats icemane was a mason and that was the only thing that stopped him from winning this game.

...

Also was sure that rofl was rishis partner because they seemed to distance each other on day 1.

Distancing is never something I use to find masons. Only Mafia distances, like how Rofl random voted rishi and Fosed him while voting him. Masons help each other so your read on Rishi seems off on a distancing principle. Then again Rofl did call Rishi town some during day one. Read the mason quick topic. It was rofl's idea to buddy up to other town looking players to get them killed over us. He told me that during night 1. I wasn't a fan of the idea, but it did get Rishi killed I guess.

Also I have no clue where you got the me and IcemanE thing. I thought he was scum day 1 and said that often. I skimmed most of day 2, being dead and all. Can you point to the exact posts with questions that made you think he was my mason buddy? I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I must have missed them as I watched in the cemetery.

I must say that grimmy done well to plan the kills of both wolfs. I still cant believe that you didnt know about masons even though I mentiioned them in night chat. Also you done a brilliant job settling in with the other vanillia townies.

Now I do think we had some luck with the wolfs really ending up assisting us. First off I think i can say that if poker was alive on day 2 then I was dead meat lol. Also if datte wasnt nked night 2 then I think i wouldve also been in deep water.

I warned the wolves that those too helpful to the town would get nked.

In any event in reading their posts, I feel I should bring something I found a while back up, since some aspects of their posts might be going too far. "too townie" fallacy. Scum will scum hunt in this game since there are two scum groups, but they won't be truly/honestly too helpful. Being too helpful gets you night killed. Getting crosskilled by the other scum group is not something scum wants. People with stuff to hide usually ain't helpful for fear of the night kill.

I must admitt that I said those exact words for reactions. i way of testing IcemanE. But Icemane kept acting town even after. He did not back down. So even I began to consider that he could be town with no fears of NK (meaning he was nilla). IcemanE did not give a scared scum reaction and so he then ended up getting some leeway from me but some NKage from you.

I have played with Grimmy in one other game. And it now appears he has a natural lurkish comedic playstyle and that it is part of his character as town and as scum. So blending in with other lurkers like Surye, K7, and Blonde probably wasn't a challenge. I doubt he had to plan that since I think it comes natural to him. Grimmy was given a good situation and oportunity so he could rely on who he already was, and therefore get by without doing alot of extra effort during the day. At least thats what I think. He got alot done with little effort. I wish I had that kind of luck to get put in situations where my perticular charisma lets me flourish. But I still get the impression that he did do some work, so there is no denieing he won this too, yet I still wish I could fathom one question. Is Grimmy flying by the seat of pants and just improvising as he goes with the tools he sees surrounding him, or is there really a loose crazy plan somewhere in his head motivating him constantly?

Oh well. GG everyone. If you can find the icemanE posts that made you think we were mason's i'd apreciate it. Later.

[PokerFace]

EBWOP: after that first quote..

...Distancing is never something I use to find masons. Only Mafia distances, like how

IcemanE

random voted rishi and Fosed him while voting him

and jumped on farside

. Masons help each other...

[PokerFace]

Oh wait I mis understood you. You were saying Rishi and Rofl were mafia partners and not masons after night 1 in that early quote. Which is why you hit icemanE night 2 over rofl. I misuderstood since you said you thought Rishi was a likly mason at one point aswell.

If that Rofl and rishi were scum together I doubt Rofl would buddy up to his scum buddy and call them town. He did say he thought Rishi was town some day1 and all that Jazz.

If you thought rishi had a chance of being a mason who did you see as his partners back then?

[PokerFace]

Well, I figured as much

[PokerFace]

Well the idea of having people counter claim and lynch a scum faking mason, makes masons come out in the first place. I suppose making a one for one trade may look ok, but should one mason turn up the other may have to too. I would see that as bad should the masons be poorly organized claiming wise.

Also one mason death could illy lead to the death of the others. When rofl and farside had that whispering fight, I was facepalming at home. Rofl and I came to the conclusion at night that if he and dcorbe survived the night, Farside is unlikly scum. That's why rofl flip flopped on his view of her. i really wished i had survived the first night and gotten to play with dattebayo. I play on IRC alot and i think Dattebayo has played with me a bit on there based on his simular playstyles here. I would have liked to play with him again since its been so long since I seen him in IRC.

Back on topic, i guess a one for one trade ain't so bad in a normal game, but with multiple scum groups. I can see one mason claiming turning up disatrious and possibly leading to the death of all masons's since multiple scum groups can kill to townies a night and even thiungs up despite the begining town majority and a simple one for one trade. That's why I still think its better mason's don't claim and you simply view who tries to defend who since i can see two masons easily defending or staying hidden when there is a third mason who's play can be scummy.

This game had a couple of fast growing wagons because of the mason and scum factions pushing them (Farside and Blonde wagons). Korts and IcemanE unvoting Farside is why I thought they were scum. Why else would a townie claim phase you, unless you are more bent on finding masons or other power roles, you mafiosos. Someone unvoting a claimed vanilla is always suspect in my mind since those claims should be seen as null issues.

That's all I can think to say. I hope that answers everything for you and adds some perspective to the game. 1 for 1 looks good on paper, but when you consider the possible repercussions that could out the rest of the power roles and how 1 for 1 ain't so useful when 2 can die a night, things tilt away from PR's claiming and 1for 1 getting done.