Mini 611a - Troy, Meet Helen (Restarting)

[CF Riot]

/confirm

[CF Riot]

My name isn't violent. It just means I'm really funny. [=

Charter you say Blackberry's actions seem odd. On a scale of 1-10 rank his scumminess in your eyes right now.

Netlava you think what is strange? Mac saying firmcon, or you not being able to compare it to anything? (just wondering)

I'm joining the no-random-vote wagon.

[CF Riot]

Scum tell!

How? And what does ftp mean? I meant to ask you that earlier. Nothing to do with the game I've just never seen that acronym before.

[CF Riot]

Netlava, fair enough. Keep watching me, I'm innocent.

Charter, I didn't mean "answer me right now," I meant how do you feel "at this point in the game." You were the one to say it was odd behavior in the first place, not me. If you

honestly

thought that way and you

honestly

have nothing to hide, there's no reason for you to dodge the question. The reason I asked was because so far you are the only one I had any suspicion about, albeit small, and I thought your answer could give me a better read.

The reason I thought you was because at that point, you voted for Mac, who Netlava had already voted for, and you voiced your suspicion of Blackberry after Hadhfang called him out first. This made me think, "Charter is following what other people start first, maybe he's trying to be a follower so no one can single him out." Now instead of just answering the question, you're showing the same behavior I had already been suspicious of by following Netlava again and calling me scummy.

I'll happily answer any questions about my logic or discuss other possible suspects. Sticking to what I thought about random voting and to show I'm not trying to "string anyone up early" I'll hold my vote if you can explain yourself Charter, but my FoS is you right now.

[CF Riot]

That was Near's only post and his reasoning mentioned a different game. The way I read it, he's simply joke voting Mac because of events between them outside this thread. To me, that didn't set of any buzzers in my head.

What I asked you was not a loaded question. Despite the fact that you claimed it was and refused to answer, in a way you still did. You said

Obviously it can't be very odd, or even odd enough to raise much suspicion.

Instead of giving that big disclaimer about my question being unfair, you could've just said "2 out of 10 because it's a small tell early in the game," or something to that effect, and it would've meant about the same and looked completely normal. The whole point of my asking was to see if you could make an opinion for yourself and stick to your posts, because like I said, I think you were just following what others said. Even if you still think it was a loaded question, you brought it on yourself. You said, "I think that's odd" so I asked "how much does it affect you?" It shouldn't have been that hard to answer.

[CF Riot]

Haha, Blackberry (can I call you BB?) when I first read your post I got sort of protective and instantly scum flashed through my mind. But after I settled down and looked at some of the posts you referenced, I'm glad you're being honest and keeping all the options open. In your post you point out 6 different people you are suspicious of, or at least who have posts you don't feel good about. Half of me dislikes that, and the other half loves it. I'll see what happens because of it.

About being over-aggressive, I actually wondered myself if I was. This is why I haven't voted for Charter yet. I think as soon as I got the ball rolling on him, he had plenty of pressure to make him react. I honestly didn't think I'd pull so many votes to him from what I said. Battousai, you pop in after Charter is obviously floundering and is tied for most votes at 3, so what do you think your vote will do to turn up the heat with no accusations or opinions attached to it? Kind of a slippery move IMO. Honestly I would rather not put more votes on Charter at the moment, because while he's still my primary scum target, if we lynch him now, no one else is going to be questioned today. We still haven't even heard a word from ShadowGirl or AcidMix (or Near really, since 1 joke vote isn't much to go on).

I'm another of the players who has a problem with your post Walnut. I just honestly don't understand it. Basically, I'm still waiting for a reason not to vote for you Charter, because I'm happy with my read on you right now. I'm not asking you to rank anyone anymore, I'd just like any kind of input that you think would help clear your name. Saying "I can't do anything about being scummy" is the biggest scum move you've made so far. I'm not locked onto just you, so there's no need to just give up. If you've got any other suspects you can convince me of, I'll gladly vote

with

you instead of for you, but right now it's going to take a lot. I know the game hasn't been open long, so I understand inactivity, but the time for that being okay is almost up. I want to see some posting soon, and some actual content in them to.

[CF Riot]

Netlava sorry I didn't answer, your post came up while I was writing that mammoth of a post. I don't think I was forcing Charter to take a stance because like I said, he said he felt that way first. I was more asking him to stick to his guns and expand on his meager posts. But if he is pro-town it wouldn't matter if I was forcing him to take a stance anyways, because he could just take it then counter-attack me and everyone would be happy. At that point in the game very little had been said even by Charter so I didn't really look too far into what he'd done. It was his answer, or lack of an answer, and all his following posts that convinced me to push harder.

For the whole fimcon thing I just really wasn't clear on your wording and was genuinely curious, but I also considered the possibility of you trying to make something little and insignificant (the way he confirmed) into an actual argument against him. I don't like when players do that. But it didn't look like that's what you were doing , and then I got all my tells on Charter so I dropped it and focused on him.

[CF Riot]

Rank how odd you think SG's post is on a scale from 1-10 right now.

Nice. [= For a while I forgot about the Golden Rule of Mafia and this actually made me laugh.

I was about to post what I thought about the whole ShadowGirl thing but since you asked Had and not me I'll wait.

I don't think what Battousai did was tunnel vision, I think it was hiding behind a bandwagon. Which I consider worse.

Charter you make specific points about what you think of Had, Battousai, Tinsley, AND Mac in your post, but not me. I feel left out. =P

[CF Riot]

"Mafia is a game, so try to have fun and don't get too personal." It's on page 1 under the rules Mizzy lists.

Since I missed your sarcasm, (silly me) I don't think SG's posts are scummy. I think she's just a new player who is being overly cautious of leaving her vote on someone she isn't ready to vote for. Then again, my opinion is slightly swayed because she is unvoting me and I like her avatar. I don't like the fact that she has time to pop in and make short posts of why she's not posting, but no time to read, but I know that's different than reading all the info and critically thinking of a suspect.

[CF Riot]

It was. And I also brought you (Battousai) up in an earlier post (60) that you haven't responded to.

[CF Riot]

The thing is, the blackberry issue looked pretty insignificant. "Obviously it can't be very odd, or even odd enough to raise much suspicion." I'm thinking that you (as scum) may have overestimated the situation and tried to encourage a bandwagon while avoiding responsibility.

I just cannot convince you can I? You seem to not pay attention to my responses either. I've already told you, the BB issue

was

insignificant, just like every other issue at that point, but it was the only thing that stood out to me. I didn't care about him accusing BB and I didn't care about him not voting BB. I wanted to see

why

. It was all the ways Charter got shifty afterwards that kept me on his trail. And just to be clear, it wasn't a bandwagon when I started. I was the first to accuse Charter of anything, and I didn't even vote him yet. I've yet to avoid any responsibility, so I don't know where you get that. I explicitly asked for questions in my logic, and obviously the fact that you're voting me means I'm catching at least

some

flack for my actions. So explain that please.

While I've got your attention, why don't I ask you a few things too? Like why on day one with such a small read, you're so avidly defending Charter? Or if Charter isn't mafia, and simply for argument's sake I'm not mafia, who do you have a read on?

Acid, thanks for joining us. It's getting exciting. Battousai, I don't know what you're doing right now, but I can't get a read on you and it's making me nervous. You seem pretty fickle, but at this point I don't know what to do about it yet.

Just to be clear again, my main FoS is still Charter. I've backed off you for the last few posts, but the way you're acting now doesn't make up for how bad you set off my scumdar earlier.

I don't know when the lynch will come, but assuming we vote Charter and he flips town, I'll have to rethink what's gone on, but my most likely target will be Batt. If he hangs and flips Mafia, I don't know yet who may be with him. Maybe a better guess if more people post. Mac, Near, either of you still with us?

[CF Riot]

I'm thinking that you (as scum) . . . tried to encourage a bandwagon

. . . just to be clear, it wasn't a bandwagon when I started. I was the first to accuse Charter of anything,

Being the first to accuse Charter doesn't mean much, because that's not why I think you're scum.

You're being totally inconsistant in why I'm a suspect, yet you do think I'm guilty. Okay wait, now that I think about it, not

totally

inconsistant.

Netlava post 33: (In response to the scale question) "Scum tell!"
Netlava post 58: (After quoting scale question again) "This post is scummy . . . it's a loaded question."
Netlava post 58 continued: (After quoting another post by me) "Pretty convincing. However, "On a scale of 1-10 rank his scumminess" does not seem like a question you would ask if you were suspicious of charter in the first place. Vote Riot

Is that one scum tell from page 2 really the only reason you're voting me? Because you would interrogate a suspect differently in my situation?

About me thinking ahead to day 2, if I knew what Charter's role was for sure, I wouldn't need precautions. I'd know I was right or wrong ahead of time. Your logic doesn't make sense. I think Charter's actions give off a very strong scumminess, but I'm not convinced of anyone. It would take a lot to totally convince me of anyone's role at any given point in the game. All I know is I'm putting a lot of my credibility on calling out Charter now that I've started this wagon, and as such I've considered what may happen in the future if I'm wrong.

Walnut thanks for clarifying I guess. What do you think of everything going on in the town currently?

[CF Riot]

I love this little game you and Netlava have going on where you answer all of my questions for each other instead of for yourselves.

1

Netlavas post 33 was pretty clearly (at least in my eyes) a joke.

2

That was what he said in post 75 but he never says that's why he thinks you're scum.

3

he's never said that your questioning me is scummy.

4

he has other reasons for finding you scummy, but you choose to ignore it.

1 Wrong. He was serious.
2 His exact words are; "I'm thinking that you (as scum)..." That's why I had to defend myself. I didn't say "If I disprove this, you have no other reason to suspect me."
3 Beyond obviously wrong. He quotes me questioning you 3 times and tells why it's scummy every time.
4

Is that one scum tell from page 2 really the only reason you're voting me

?

That last thing there Charter is a question mark. I'm asking him what his unannounced "reasons" are.

Netlava I still expect you to answer my questions, despite the fact that Charter has tried for you.

The reason I haven't laid down a real vote for Charter is the wagon originally got 4 votes onto Charter really quickly. This was too soon to lynch him because no one else had been questioned, so I held my vote. After that, I got really caught up in this side attack from Netlava, and on top of that Charter didn't do anything after the wagon stalled to really confirm my suspicions. His scumminess peaked early, so there was no point in the game later that made me think, "Okay now I'm sure." I think everyone here knows my stance on Charter, so whether or not I vote wouldn't distance me from any fallout later. The real vote wouldn't carry any more weight than my posts and FoS.

[CF Riot]

What info did you hope to glean from such a question?

My whole suspicion of him at the time came from the fact that he was blending in to the crowd too well. I hoped by asking him to commit to what he'd hinted at, I could see if he was legit or if he was only making the statement to seem like everyone's best friend.

The way Lava was being inconsistent is he states evidence against me, I give reasoning for it which helps prove my innocence, and then he comes back and claims the detail is now unimportant.

If it will help prove my township and prove I'm willing to take responsibility for my own actions, so be it.

Vote: Charter

I post too much. Number of times and length of each post. =/

[CF Riot]

I'm so mad at this game right now I'm going to cry. I think I'm being played really well by the mafia, but my brain is so fantastical the scenarios I come up with of how they're doing it are too ridiculous to be logical on D1.

*sigh*

Had, I don't know what to say to you. I was holding my vote for Charter because I didn't want a speed lynch and I wasn't (am still not) convinced he is scum. He is still however my main suspect. (I have others now though.) Several people disapproved of me pressing him without committing a true vote to him, so to show my willingness to cooperate with the rest of the town I voted. To repeat, no I'm not sure of him, yes I still suspect him. I wouldn't vote for a person I thought was innocent based on something like, "If you don't vote George you're scum." But I will lock in a vote I've already purposed based on proving my honesty.

The credibility post you have a problem with was in response to Netlava's post about my D2 predictions. He didn't like the way I was thinking ahead in the game, which I semi-understand, so I stated why I thought of the possibility of Charter being lynched/town. This is what everyone claims to be me "taking precautions". It is not. I'm speculating what would happen if Charter was town. Half the time people say, "if you're so sure of Charter why not vote?" then the other half say "you don't seem too sure of him". We've finally found a good example of a loaded question, or situation at least. I'm doing my best to deal with it and give my full honest thought process behind every move I make. I think that by holding nothing back and letting everyone plainly see why I make the actions I make, there should be no reason to think of me as scum.

Lastly, since this is another of my long winded posts, I'm going to try for at least the end of day 1 to start giving shorter posts unless specifically questioned. I think if we start getting down to actual lynch time, we'll see for real what happens and all of this near-blind speculating won't be necessary. And Acidmix, post 89 is

your

post.

[CF Riot]

No I never meant to imply that I was in fact taking them. Netlava said it appeared that I was taking precautions

as scum

. I am not scum, and my post was saying "

if

I were, I wouldn't need them."

[CF Riot]

Okay here. Like I already tried to clarify to Had, I would never follow the requests of a majority simply to appear more town. I see what you're all saying and I realized my vote for Charter may appear that way before I made it. But like I said, I had already stated more than once Charter was my #1 suspect, so my vote for him was simply me putting my vote where my mouth was.

From here down I'm mostly talking directly to you Netlava. About me getting mad at the game, it isn't because I'm afraid I'm going to be lynched. It was more because every time I think I've totally proved myself by posting reasons and examples of what I've done, that is when I appear the scummiest in the eyes of those persecuting me. My scenarios were things like, you being Mafia and Charter being town, you coming to defend him and gain a sort of friendship with him, Charter still being lynched, then you throwing blame to me D2 for his mislynch. Also I added to that ideas of Mac being your scumbuddy and in turn defending me to abolish any link you two may have appeared to have. To be clear, I don't actually think any of this is what is happening. But if it were, it'd be the best set up and puppet game ever by mafia on two unsuspecting townies.

I think what you said about townies not knowing what their suspects will flip explains why I did consider Charter being town. Since I don't know, I am still hoping for the best and still suspect him, but before he actually IS lynched, I wanted to imagine what the result would be if I were wrong.

For your first question (how suspicious), I know you didn't ask me for a number but on my scale that everyone seems to be using now, it was probably a 4. In my head, everyone was a 3 before they posted. To be 2 or less you must seem protown to me, and to be 0 you must be confirmed. 9 and 10 would be serious "We MUST lynch this person" territory. To take it a step further, at this point in the game I think Charter is a 7. At first all his accusations against me and others started to make me think he was scumhunting and therefore lowered my rank of him. Lately however, his accusations seem to all be stretching what is happening. He constantly says things like, "What you did could set you up to do something bad as mafia later." He always points this out about people, but so far none of those people have actually done what he was predicting. He's casting a scummy image of them when they could make scum moves later, but could also be innocently being active. He also seems to think

everyone

is twisting other people's words.

For your second question (case sound?), no. I said I think I'm being

played

well by the mafia. This means I felt like I (and those voting against me) was being led astray and somewhat manipulated by those that were the actual guilty party. This doesn't apply to every question or remark that's been made against me. Some of what people have thought, either because of misinterpretations or because they really believe me to be scummy by my actions, are reasonable. (And when I say reasonable, I don't mean they're right. Simply that they could logically come to that conclusion from what had been said.)

I don't know if I'm happy or hurt at the fact that Had and Mac see me as protown now at the expense of me being newb town. It

is

my first game here, so I guess that's not a bad thing yet. My long posts are back. Are you happy? [=

[CF Riot]

I didn't say "you say BB is scummy," I said "you say BB's actions are odd." Charter actually did, in those exact words, claim BB's actions were odd in his own post. I didn't lead Charter to that conclusion, I asked him to expand on it because he already said he felt that way. You're doing the same thing Charter is in claiming if someone phrases a question a certain way, the person answering has to agree with it. Charter could have said, "It's not scummy at all, I meant his playstyle is odd." What if I did think BB's action was scummy? Couldn't I think that way and ask Charter to agree with me and then he simply not?

Earlier in a post I asked you why you were defending Charter. This didn't force you to take Charter's side. Despite the way I phrased it, you said "I'm not defending him. He could be innocent or guilty." Explain?

[CF Riot]

I sure do hope that you're taking responsibility for your actions - who else will do it for you?

That was the point I was trying to make. Netlava and Charter had both accused me of trying to avoid responsibility for various things. I had assumed that how vocal I was against Charter was enough, but seeing as how they still argued that case against me, I decided to go ahead and confirm my vote for him so there'd be no doubt that I claimed all responsibility I deserve for whatever may happen if he was lynched.

merely saying that your words are being twisted are not enough. Show evidence that they are!

I don't know for sure that you were talking directly to me here, but I haven't thought anyone's twisted my words yet. Not a big deal but I just thought I'd address that since it confused me.

I agree with Battousai on the subject of people answering direct questions of others. General statements or questions aimed at the town as a whole are different. But specific questions to a single player are intended to give a better idea of their own individual opinions in the game. If another person posts his opinions first, we can't know for sure if the original person being asked will be influenced or not.

Acid are you sure Mac was lying about what you said in his question? Do you think Mac was trying to twist your words, or that he misread what you meant because of the way you answered?

[CF Riot]

Charter since this is becoming popular now and since I'm voting for you will you rank your top 3 scum suspects for me please? You haven't voted, and I find the way you post paranoid and accusing of almost everyone.

[CF Riot]

I don't need to vote someone to scumhunt, do I?

Nowhere in my post did I suggest there was something wrong with you not voting. I only meant that because you haven't, I don't know who you suspect the most.

How am I accusing of everyone? Everyone would mean more than you, mac, battousai, and tinsley.

And Hadhfang, and Acid. That's 6 people out of 12. Minus you, minus BB and Near for hardly anything to read. That means you suspect 6 out of 9 people. Nothing wrong with this per say, it just makes it seem like you have a sort of paranoia style which makes it hard to say who you really suspect and who you're just trying to get a feel of. I personally think the way

you specifically

are doing this is scummy.

Your post 148 really bothers me. Looks to me like you changed your mind pretty fast after just laying down your opinions. Your question to Near doesn't do anything to help the town. He's been asked already to post his thoughts, and it's implied he do so anyway because of how the game is played.

[Riot] doesn't even care about anything but lynching me or netlava.

Point to me where in the game I give you the idea I want to lynch Netlava so bad. I'm not only focused on you either. Trust me, I'm paying close attention to everything that's going on here but of all the people I've questioned so far none of them give me any reason to suspect them like you have.

[CF Riot]

There's been a lot happening since my last post so I tried to address things in the order I saw them in. I think I may have accidentally switched two of them, but they weren't related to it should be fine.

@ Netlava

Earlier in a post I asked you why you were defending Charter. This didn't force you to take Charter's side. Despite the way I phrased it, you said "I'm not defending him. He could be innocent or guilty." Explain?

You didn't answer my question. (Now that I look at it, it seems to be unclear. What I want to know is why you think my question to Charter only leaves him one answer, but not my question to you.)

@ Acidmix

Acid are you sure Mac was lying about what you said in his question? Do you think Mac was trying to twist your words, or that he misread what you meant because of the way you answered?

You haven't posted since I first wrote this so it's no big deal, but since people have been ignoring my questions I thought I'd repost it for you.

@ Charter

Point to me where in the game I give you the idea I want to lynch Netlava so bad.

You didn't answer my question either, or admit to making a mistake.

Walnut at the beginning of the game I didn't think you were posting enough either but you've cleared yourself from that list. I think Near for sure and Acidmix for maybe are the only ones left lurking.

Tinsley, I'm glad I used that scale page 2, if only for everyone to get a kick out of it later. (=

I like post 166 by Hadhfang. I don't agree with everything he's saying but he is explaining himself well, supporting his opinions with detail, and sticking to his claims when they are challenged.

What on earth could I have had to hide by not answering that question? Tell me that and I'll agree that my not answering makes me scum...

By not answering it you keep your true opinion hidden from the town by leaving your original post which was vague and open for interpretation.

Plus there was nothing he could hope to learn from that question,

Had you actually given a number, I could continue to watch your posts to see if they reflect that same opinion later or change to agree with someone else, ie being a follower to avoid suspicion. Because you didn't answer, I did learn you seemed to have something to hide, you continue to appear to be a follower, and you didn't want to take a stance on BB if you didn't have to.

If it is Netlava saying odd implies scummy, he's clearly being fecetious. Note the rolleyes smily.

Again I have to disagree with you. I think you're taking one of Netlava's posts as a joke when he is being serious, for the second time. How can anyone not be convinced Charter is Mafia? This is the point in the game where I would've dropped my vote on Charter to signify I'm not just scumhunting anymore, I think I have one. Since I can't revote for him or anything, I'd like to officially announce I'm pushing for a true Charter lynch.

BB the first time you posted your thoughts on the town all together and suspected a lot of them I said it felt scummy to me for a split second, but you've stuck to it so I can tell this is how you play. Now that I have more posts from you to go on I'm liking the way you post more and more.

[CF Riot]

You didn't answer my question. (Now that I look at it, it seems to be unclear. What I want to know is why you think my question to Charter only leaves him one answer, but not my question to you.)

How many times do I have to repeat myself?? Your question to Charter is loaded because you lead Charter to the conclusion that BB's action was scummy even though it was obvious he thought nothing much of it that early in the game. It also forces him to commit way too early in the game over apparently nothing.

You totally missed the point here. You said why you think Charter's is a loaded question, which I've read from you already. But the whole idea I want you to explain is how it is any different than the question I asked you? I'm referring to our interaction in posts 78 and 79. You know I wasn't leading you to a conclusion any less or any more than I was Charter, so why scummy in his instance but not yours? About me pressing for his lynch, it took about 2, 2 and a half pages for me to build my confidence on him. If you look at the posts from pages 5 to now(7), you'll see Charter has been extremely active and extremely scummy.

Walnut, I find the 3 mafia tell to be valid, but weak. I'd say a FoS on Netlava is appropriate right about now though.

[CF Riot]

/in again.

So pissed about Acid, but pretty happy I picked out a mafia D1. Are we going to use this same thread or start a new one? BTW, Charter if you survived the lynch who was going to be N1 kill? (Is it cheating to ask that?)

[CF Riot]

Wow, town was really strong that game. I think we would've had it wrapped up pretty quickly. I was just a vanilla, but a cop and a doc with the Godfather on the ropes D1 is pretty sweet. Netlava I'm going to miss the Orca. [=