Mini 611a - Troy, Meet Helen (Restarting)

[Hadhfang]

/confirm

[Hadhfang]

Vote: Acidmix

Its what the internetz told me to do.

[Hadhfang]

Blackberry, since when have you not been one for random voting? I've seen you do it in previous games.

[Hadhfang]

Blackberry, since when have you not been one for random voting? I've seen you do it in previous games.

Had -- when have seen me in previous games? I play mafia games on the forum every once in a blue moon, lol.

maybe so, but I did see one game which you started in before being replaced and you did vote randomly at the start.

[Hadhfang]

I'm not going to answer that. Whatever answer I give you'll turn into an argument against me.

That's generally how this game works though. questions are asked an followed up, not just left at an answer. otherwise we wouldn't get anywhere. refusing to answer questions seems slightly scummy in my opinion.

Fos: Chater.

[Hadhfang]

EBWOP

FoS: Charter

-sorry, minor typo there

[Hadhfang]

So asking loaded questions isn't scummy? Well then Had, who did you and your scumbuddies decide to go after today? Regardless of your answer I can turn it into an argument against you.

"So who did your scumbuddies kill today" and "On a scale of 1-10 how scummy do you think he is?" are completely different questions. The scale question is asking you for your opinion, the scumbuddies one is already making an assumption. What Riot asked you was a simple question on your opinioin, which may have been followed up with a "why" question.

Also, @ blackberry, It seems your non random voting has created the scenario you predicted!

Unvote, Vote: Charter

[Hadhfang]

This is actually quite interesting. I don't answer a question, and it seems I'm the only suspect and the only person anyone has interest in questioning. I didn't dodge it Riot, and I didn't give a flakey answer, I told riot directly I'm not going to answer his question because I thought he was asking just so he could use my answer to make his case on me.

Not entirely true, mac has asked Walnut to clarify his post and Near's semi OMGUS vote (thats what it appears to be at least) has been looked into in a way as well. Even I came under suspicion for my typo of your name.

Also, Had, you seem quite eager to vote me. You say refusing to answer questions is slightly scummy, but in your next post you vote for me.

Fair point, however you are also being incredibly defensive, even at the point when you had no commited votes on you (by commited I mean votes that are not random)

Also, I think this is getting blown out of proportion. If you want to keep interrogating me about it, I'm going to keep giving the same answer. I didn't answer because I thought Riot would use the answer to build a case against me (ironically the opposite has happened). If my actions are scummy, there's nothing I can do about it.

If you think this is getting blown out of proportion then why not answer the question? by refusing further and trying to tell us we are overreacting is like trying to reassure us a nuclear reactor is fine when it clearly isn't. (Slightly different circumstances, but you can see the analogy)

[Hadhfang]

@ blackberry

It wasn't so much about the answering of the question, it was the fact that Charter was refusing to answer still and then sayign we were making a big deal out of nothing. note that I didn't say "then answer the question" I said "then why not answer it" asking him why he was so stubbornly refusig to answer when that was putting more pressure on him. For saying he is so eager to prove to us that he is town he wasn't helping his case by not answering the question.

if that makes sense.



As for the post Charter made in 48, I did touch upon that in post 50, though I perhaps should elaborate.

I said that his refusing to answer the question was "slightly scummy" and in my next post I voted for him.

however, In that post I also pointd out that the tye of question Charter had been asked was different to a loaded question. The question was a simple "what do you think?" in essence, yet Charter got all defensive about it. I did make the point about him him being defensive, but to elaborate on that, I feel that Charter is being a bit too defensive at this moment in time, especially when considering that when he made that post he only had 2 votes on him (I think?) and one of which was a random vote.

[Hadhfang]

Oh, and

unvote

- now that the random stage of voting is over.

Is that all?

I find this slightly odd that you would unvote just because the random stage is over, added to that you don't vote anyone else or give us any opinions. I appreciate that you have exams, but even with time constraints there was no real need to just unvote.

Although I can't see this as a scum tell, but slightly odd play.

[Hadhfang]

Well I felt that Charter was being rather too defensive at the start, so fairly scummy. But I can't see how Battousai's vote on charter made him any more defensive than he actually was, it looks like Battousai was trying to give his vote some meaning, but he's removed it now it's come under a little fire.

I'm thinking now that Charter may be an overeager town player or have a power role which might account for his defensivness. Still, I'm going to keep my vote on him for now, becuase I'm not entirely convinced he isn't scum.

And mod, didn't Blackberry vote me in his last post?

Thank you! With all of the bolds in there, I didn't see the vote.

~Mizzy

[Hadhfang]

Acid, just because they appear to be doing a lot of scumhunting doesn't mean they are pro-town necessarily.

I also agree that CF riot was twisting netlava's words. Riot, i can't see how netlava contradicted himself within the evidence you presented, would you care to point out what it is exactly that is a contradictory statement?

[Hadhfang]

If it will help prove my township and prove I'm willing to take responsibility for my own actions, so be it.

Vote: Charter

Are you voting for Charter here because you honestly believe he is scum though, or becuase you think its what we want you to do? That quote seems to suggest the latter to me, and you aren't truly convinced about Charter yet. That does seem a little defensive, which must also be taken into account wiht your previous comments.

About me thinking ahead to day 2, if I knew what Charter's role was for sure, I wouldn't need precautions.

It's entirely likely that everyone will fall under suspicion and do soethign that looks scummy at some point in the game. Thats how it works. It's a case of sifting through it, and finding the geniune scummy actions from the honest mis-judgments. I fail to see why you see the need to take "precautions" in case Charter isn't scum.

All I know is I'm putting a lot of my credibility on calling out Charter now that I've started this wagon, and as such I've considered what may happen in the future if I'm wrong.

As opposed to everyone else who voted/votes for him? it takes more than one person to lynch, I think this is a bit too defensive as well.

I got really caught up in this side attack from Netlava, and on top of that Charter didn't do anything after the wagon stalled to really confirm my suspicions. His scumminess peaked early, so there was no point in the game later that made me think, "Okay now I'm sure." I think everyone here knows my stance on Charter, so whether or not I vote wouldn't distance me from any fallout later. The real vote wouldn't carry any more weight than my posts and FoS.

If that is the case then why now vote for Charter if you still aren't convinced?

I think that you are perhaps a bit too over eager to defend your actions, This might be a scum tell, but i'm going ot see where this leads.

Unvote, Vote: CF Riot

[Hadhfang]

Fair point Riot, but you seem to contradict yourself slightly which I'd like to ask you about.

This is what everyone claims to be me "taking precautions". It is not. I'm speculating what would happen if Charter was town.

This is fair enough, however, earlier you said

About me thinking ahead to day 2, if I knew what Charter's role was for sure, I wouldn't need precautions.

Which suggests that you are admitting you were taking precautions, which is it?

[Hadhfang]

Mod, could we get a prod on Near and possibly ShadowGirl?

Completely disagree. The actual number wouldn't have given much information, but the way someone answers (or doesn't, in this case) can be a valuable reaction to look at. It wouldn't have put him in a bad position at all, as very little stock would (or should) be put in that number later.

I still don't see how an answer that question would help. But more importantly, it leads Charter to the conclusion that Blackberry's action was scummy with the phrase "you say that blackberry's actions seem odd." The question almost expects Charter to find Blackberry scummy and makes not finding Blackberry scummy a direct disagreement with his previous post.

Netlava, looking at that it looks like you think the question was loaded, why is that? The actual question was "give a rating on the action" and the game was still in the random voting phrase, if slightly exiting it. I can't see how the question was loaded at that point, as the statement before was reiterating what Charter had said.

Lastly, since this is another of my long winded posts, I'm going to try for at least the end of day 1 to start giving shorter posts unless specifically questioned.

Stay active so we can continue to interrogate you

Good point, but the way you say it suggests you feel Riot is scummy.

I think I'm being played really well by the mafia

Are you admitting that the case against you is sound?

That could move into WIFOM territory. If he is admitting the case is sound then either he is mafia, saying that he is town because he looks scummy, when in fact he is scum because he looks scummy, or he is town, saying he is town because he looks scummy, because he is being played by the mafia.

WIFOM situations don't help us at all, and questions like that could create them.

I'm also thinking that Riot probably isn't scum right now, so I'll

Unvote

Having done that, I'm not going to vote anyone just yet because I'm not incredibly sure just yet, I'll make a decision later on my vote, but for now.
FoS: Netlava

[Hadhfang]

EBWOP

[quote="Hadhfang

Stay active so we can continue to interrogate you

Good point, but the way you say it suggests you feel Riot is scummy.
[/quote]

Whoops, I wrote the rest of the post but forgot to finish this bit. I'd like to ask what your reading on CF Riot is at the moment?

[Hadhfang]

Good point, but the way you say it suggests you feel Riot is scummy.

Well, yeah

Thanks for confirming the obvious netlava, any chance you could answer the question now?

[Hadhfang]

So ShadowGirl, in your eyes what order would you put them in from scummiest to least scummy?

[Hadhfang]

I'm not voting for anyone because I'm not trying to lynch anyone yet. I don't need to vote someone to scumhunt, do I?

No, but 1 vote doesn't lynch anyone either, especially as at the moment you are the closest to being lynched. This is a very weak line of thought but one could theorise that your reluctance to vote is because you and Riot are scum together, and you are concerened about voting him in case it somehow linked you, or even got him lynched.

However I have not yet seen any evidence to suggest you might be scum together, but it is a thought.

[Hadhfang]

Walnut, what is your obsesson for looking for non-standard scum tells? Are you worried that you might make some and get noticed?

And also:

He prefaces that question by pointing out that "you say Blackberry is scummy," which leads Charter to that conclusion. "Rank his scumminess" also implies that the action was scummy.

Charter you say Blackberry's actions seem odd. On a scale of 1-10 rank his scumminess in your eyes right now.

netlava, it really doesn't take any effort to go back to page 2 and see what was actually written. I think you just reiterated your previous response, or that of someone elses

Battousai - I don't know yet - he may be more scummy than I previously thought

Care to elaborate?


And, a contradiciton from yourself netlava:

Explain why the timing of my vote is off, but Hadhfang's or Battousai's isn't.

Had was the first to vote, and his reason was pretty trivial. It seemed more of an upgrade over a random vote. On the other hand, your reason indicated the beginnings of a case on Charter.

This is post 110, saying my post was in your eyes pretty trivial.


But then in 113, both on the same page you say

I'm not so sure about Had's and Battousai's votes either, but yours just feels the most suspect.

So now you do think my vote on charter was suspicious.


Also, look at post 33, netlava calls Scumtell but with no reason
35, CF Riot asks why
36, Netlava backs off claiming he needs more time before he can explain it.

Then there are a plethora of reasons you have come out with as to why the question on page2 is a scum tell

The question, "On a scale of 1-10 rank his scumminess," is scummy because it's not a question one would ask when suspecting someone, which makes me doubt your earlier claim that you suspected Charter when asking that question.

This post is scummy because of the way you force charter to take a stance on Blackberry this early in the game while placing the responsibility entirely on him. Charter says Blackberry's actions seem odd? What do they like seem to you? I would consider that a loaded question

And you say words to the effect of "The action is scummy because it is a loaded question."

But more importantly, it leads Charter to the conclusion that Blackberry's action was scummy with the phrase "

Then there is another contradiction:

But more importantly, it leads Charter to the conclusion that Blackberry's action was scummy with the phrase "you say that blackberry's actions seem

odd

." The question almost expects Charter to find Blackberry scummy and makes not finding Blackberry scummy a direct disagreement with his previous post.

He prefaces that question by pointing out that "you say Blackberry is scummy,"

when you just admitted he didn't!

Vote:Netlava

[Hadhfang]

Odd implies scummy, people.

Then we are looking at different dictionaries. odd to me means slightly stange, not scummy.

The rest of your post is trying to justify you twisitng peoples words, and your fairly liberal application of hte word scummy throughout. Odd and scummy are not the same thing, as much as you may like them to be.

Blackberry, what don't you like about my post 90?

[Hadhfang]

Part II The breakthrough

and my response.

As you can see, not answering questions is bad.

Now I don't think you should be lynched based on that alone,

but I will add my vote on you to add on even more pressure.

Implies not answering questions is somehow lynch-worthy.

Oh look! netlava's twisiting people's words, there's a first!

I'm thinking now that Charter may be an overeager town player or have a power role which might account for his defensivness. Still, I'm going to keep my vote on him for now, becuase I'm not entirely convinced he isn't scum.

Discusses power roles, and not convinced he

isn't

scum? You were convinced in the first place?

I mentioned it was a possibility, but to me it seemed that charter was more likely to be scum than have a power role, Also interesting is that you only notice this once Blackberry points it out.

I think that you are perhaps a bit too over eager to defend your actions, This might be a scum tell, but i'm going ot see where this leads.

Damn that vote was useful. A few posts later and you unvote, having gained the wonderful insight of that vote,

An insight you seem to have overlooked. During those "few posts" I was

Questioning CF Riot for more correct reasons, and appears to be doing so honestly.

Oh look! you said that! Now your saying that I wasn't, also after blackberry has made the suggestion that I might be scum,

Thanks for confirming the obvious netlava, any chance you could answer the question now?

ANY CHANCE YOU COULD READ MY ANSWER!?

your answer consisted of "well duh" post. that didn't answer my request

Whoops, I wrote the rest of the post but forgot to finish this bit. I'd like to ask what your reading on CF Riot is at the moment?

I was hoping for a bit more substance than "I think he is scummy" Something like to what extent and possible links with others would have been nice.

I did make the point about him him being defensive, but to elaborate on that, I feel that Charter is being a bit too defensive at this moment in time, especially when considering that when he made that post he only had 2 votes on him (I think?) and one of which was a random vote.

Again, with the defensiveness theme. Is defensiveness is your main reason for voting Charter? I find pointing out defensiveness as the main reason for voting scummy because from my limited experience as scum, it is the reason I am most tempted to give. discuss.

Remember this is day 1. Charter was defensive from the first question posed to him. That to me seemed too defensive for a power roll player, hence my remaining vote on charter at the point i theorised it was a possibility. I was fairly convinced that he was scum, but there was the tiny possibility that he was a power role.

I see my vote has gotten a reaction out of you charter. Just so you know, just because I vote for you doesn't mean I want you lynched. I wanted to see how defensive you would become with an additional vote on you.

Post implies you expect charter to be defensive after voting him. Then you use that as a scumtell!

Again, it's not that he's just being defensive in general, its that the first question he was asked he refused to answer.



To Summerize:

Netlava is staying true to form and twisting words, and it looks like trying to influence a bandwagon by repeating what has already been said, Charter still seems scummy to me, but there is a possibilty that he has a power role (though it seems unlikely), no idea on a third.

[Hadhfang]

Oh yeah, quick question.

Had -- where have you seen me random vote before?

Mini 549, I was looking through archived games, generally completed ones. I hadn't played since /cows mini, and I decided to read through some of the normal mini's, since I've generally been a bigger fan of themed mini's and haven't really touched normal mini's before. having said that, looking back at it, you did mention your general detest of random voting, seems I missed that.

Netlava -- I like netlava's recent posts and am glad he has come to the realization had is most likely scum (lol).

Had -- I don't like the fact that after someone says "I don't think it's xxxx and xxxx" you try to counter their thoughts and make them think otherwise. I may or may not be correct when thinking this next thought: but the way you talk to him it's like you're trying to convince a townie otherwise. You are not considering he may be scum with an alternate plan. Just the way you speak to him is as if you know he is a pro-town player? Am I making sense? lol.

I'm assuming this is a response to why you don't like post 90? or am I wrong there?

Had -- The whole rolling your eyes thing and saying "Oh look!" in the last post is odd to me. "Oh look!", to me, sounds like scum being excited they found mistakes in others...

It probably was my personality coming out, i generally tend to be faily sardonic unfortunatley, and I was pointing out that netlava's post was yet another in a long line of posts that puts words into peoples mouths, which was annoying me.

Had -- This, once again, strikes me as odd

there is a possibilty that he has a power role (though it seems unlikely), no idea on a third.

Why would you think he has a power role? And yet then you say it seems unlikely?

Like I said before, Charter's overly defensive nature from the word go seemed to suggest that he wasn't a vanilla townie. it seemed to me (and still does) that he is scum, there is the possibility however, that he might not be, but I don't think his behaviour is rational enough to be considered vanilla. You will also notice that I didn't say I thought he did have a power role, I said that it was a possibility.

[Hadhfang]

Then we are looking at different dictionaries. odd to me means slightly stange, not scummy.

The only word you need to look up is "imply."

In the context of this game, odd IMPLIES scummy. Why do we point out that something is odd in this game? Is it simply because it's bizarre? No, we say it's strange because it can be interpreted as scummy behavior.

If we take it one step further

, what is the definition of "strange?" Something that is not normal. In this game the "norm" is the town, which constitutes the majority of the players and is thus the standard for comparison. We are trying to weed out the deviations from the norm, which are the mafia. Therefore, strange -> mafia.

I'd like to draw attention to the bit I bolded "if we take it one step further", which implies that we need to do more than read it at base value to reach this stage. therefore "odd" at base value does not equate scummy, you need to take an extra step to get there. Furhter to that it seems you are doing that clever linking game where you link things to make it look like they are the same thing, but in reality are not. If you read a theasaurus you will find that "upset" will have the word "worry" as an alternative. Worried and upset are completely different words. AS are "odd" and "scummy"

This "maliciously word twisting" theme is nonsense. You guys are just purposely misinterpreting my posts, and adding some drama to it.

mhmmm, as opposed to you misinterpreting CF Riot's question and "taking it one step further" or putting words in his mouth as it were.

If anything, this should lend credence to the idea that CF Riot's question was loaded, as his question purported the idea that saying something is odd -> scumminess. How come you don't question that?

We had this discussion when Charter brought it up, and the consensus was that his question was not loaded.

Oh look! netlava's twisiting people's words, there's a first!

Oh look! Had is just gonna take whatever I say next, and say I'm twisting people's words!

Actually no, the only reason I am saying you are twisting words at the moment is because you actually are.

As you can see, not answering questions is bad. Now I don't think you should be lynched based on that alone, but I will add my vote on you to add on even more pressure.

My comment here was that it implies not answering questions is lynch worthy. Here, we look at the assumptions. Batt dispels the notion that Charter should be lynched solely because he didn't answer a question. To dispel this notion requires the assumption that a person should be lynched solely for that in the first place, which is an absurd idea. Consequently, batt's post seems fake. I also don't like how he subscribes to the general mantra "not answering questions is bad."

Well if bat was dispelling an absurd notion I fail to see the problem.

I mentioned it was a possibility, but to me it seemed that charter was more likely to be scum than have a power role, Also interesting is that you only notice this once Blackberry points it out.

Doesn't change anything. Were you really convinced that Charter was scum just based off of that in the first place? I feel that the sentence, "I'm going to keep my vote on him for now, becuase I'm not entirely convinced he isn't scum" is an excuse for scum to leave their vote on someone in case he is lynched while they debate whether they are innocent or guilty.

Like I said, his reaction felt too defensive to be vanilla town. So yes, I was that convinced he was scum. I entertained the possibility that I might be wrong and that he had a power role, but it seemed at the time very unlikely.

Remember this is day 1. Charter was defensive from the first question posed to him. That to me seemed too defensive for a power roll player, hence my remaining vote on charter at the point i theorised it was a possibility. I was fairly convinced that he was scum, but there was the tiny possibility that he was a power role.

I think defensiveness in general is a flawed scumtell. It varies too much from person to person.

I never said that his "general defensivness" was a scum tell, I said that his "overly defensivness on a simple question" was a scum tell. That's the difference.

Btw, had, the quote that where it says you are scumhunting for more "correct" reasons is actually macavenger's, not mine.

hmm, So it was, I apologise.

You didn't answer my question. (Now that I look at it, it seems to be unclear. What I want to know is why you think my question to Charter only leaves him one answer, but not my question to you.)

How many times do I have to repeat myself?? Your question to Charter is loaded because you lead Charter to the conclusion that BB's action was scummy even though it was obvious he thought nothing much of it that early in the game. It also forces him to commit way too early in the game over apparently nothing.

I don't think that Charter is incapable of saying "I think that BB is only 1 on that scale because it jsut seems odd, not scummy to me." The question was a simple scale question, even if, for arguments sake CF had said "you imply BB is scummy, on a scale of 1-10 how scummy is he to you?" Charter is still able to answer "1". If CF said "Charter, why do you think that BB's actions are scummy?" that would be loaded. Asking for a number out of 10 isn't.

How can anyone not be convinced Charter is Mafia?

I think you're overplaying your "I take responsibility!!" act now. Weren't you debating on whether Charter were innocent just a moment ago? PS I don't think Charter is mafia.

Why's that then netlava? Why don't you think that Charter is scum?

No. It doesn't. At all. I'm awed by your ability to bold two unrelated words.

Maybe if you read the words in between, it would help.

"On a scale of 1-10 rank his" Oh your right, I gained a wealth of information from that. yes I was being faceious there, if only to point out how absurd your argument that "odd" and "scummy" are the same. Yes, they can be linked but they are not interchangerble, which is the crucial difference.

Translation: "Shit, people realized the bullshit wagon I started on CF Riot was bullshit. I need to start another bullshit wagon so they don't lynch me or my buddy charter!"

LOL, you really think I'm buddies with Charter?

Well considering everyone except you thinks that Charter is scum, logic would dictate that yes he does.

And the case against CF Riot is based around 2 primary themes. The first is his question and the second is the precaution he takes. However, CF Riot's third act, voting Charter to stick to his guns, strikes me as a newb act, so therefore I'm inclined to dismiss CF Riot as a newb townie.

yet you still managed to bring up the whole "It's a scumy question" argument several times. Also, you say in the same post:

If anything, this should lend credence to the idea that CF Riot's question was loaded, as his question purported the idea that saying something is odd -> scumminess. How come you don't question that?

So you aren't going to stick your neck out and call CF Riot scummy now you've decided to call him newb town, but you want us to ask him why he did that? Surely it shouldn't matter to you why he did it if you think he's newb town, and if it does matter then why don't you ask him yourself?

[Hadhfang]

Another flawed question from Riot. Point to me where in the game I gave you the idea that there was one specific point in time I could point to where I got the impression that you wanted to lynch Netlava so bad.

Charter, first he didn't ask you for a specific point, just where abouts in the game. Secondly your argument that his question is flawed is also flawed. His question is perfectly valid as you said:

[Riot] doesn't even care about anything but lynching me or netlava.

Since you had already said that he is perfectly entitled to ask whatgave you that impression which is what he did. your response is completely absurd, and if everyone made responses like that we could get posts like "point to me where in the game I gave you the impression that I had a reading on everyone"

[Hadhfang]

Erm, Acidmix, if that was true, why would you tell us that your scum as well, since thats only likely to get you lynched and loose anyway?

[Hadhfang]

/in for restart

[Hadhfang]

/in

<--- is happy he was right about Hadhfang and charter ... cuz he usually isn't ever right LOL

yeah, kudos to you on that, I thought I was going to get out of day 1 relativley clean until you started questioning me , Sorry if my response style pissed you off BB by the way, and Happy Scumday.

[Hadhfang]

EBWOP:

@ CF Riot,since the game is over it wouldn't be cheating, I would have tried to get the others to kill BB night one, since he was the closest to being right. Dunno what the other two would have gone for, and I doubt we shall find out who Acid would have wanted to target.

[Hadhfang]

But, we all go out and get dictionarys for the next game.

Good point, shall we all agree on a definition for Odd?


(also, since i was a mafia roleblocker I'm assuming the town had some pretty good roles, and Tinsley already "claimed" cop, what did everyone else have out of interest?)