Mini 617 - Scottish Mafia, Game Over

[massive]

I'm not sure I get how Erratus's post could be construed as "breadcrumming" (sic) ... mind explaining that one?

And I also think we can probably move past the "random voting" since we're on page three.

[massive]

Well at least you didn't call me out for saying we were on Page 3 when we were still on Page 2. But it was a nice attempt. I'm much more interested in your own three-related slip-up though.

vote Erratus

[massive]

Let's relieve the mod of the pressure of replacing our current lynch target and just lynch him.

[massive]

And I think it's very suspicious to see two people demand roleclaims from Erratus before being willing to lynch him ... especially CC09, who isn't voting for him at this time.

[massive]

dcorbe

: Can you explain how you went from "wait for his replacement" to "I'll hammer him" (even though you didn't) to "maybe his replacement can claim" in regards to your opinion about Erratus in the span of about twenty hours?

[massive]

But even with the assumption that EA was going to be eventually lynched one way or another, do you think it would be good scumplay on Cybele's part to hammer his/her partner? People WERE clamoring for a replacement, despite how detrimental it could have been to the game. If Cybele is scum, why not ride it out a bit?

[massive]

If Cybele is scum, what would he gain from letting EA / EA's replacement hang at L-1? Well, for one major thing, at least a CHANCE that EA wouldn't be lynched at all. In the event that someone DID replace in and roleclaim due to the pressure, Cybele-scum could also have been rewarded should someone counterclaim EA. Even if it's only a day, I think Cybele-scum would have waited.

In fact, I'd kinda expect scum to act more like YOU did. Your switch off of EA to q21 was OMGUS-y, especially when you claim you are voting EA to pressure him, and then jump off once the strain starts to show on EA. You continuously reiterate that EA's bandwagon is for information and not for lynching. You place the assumed-hammer vote without really lynching EA, then say that it's still possible someone could replace in and claim. Really, the only saving grace is that I can apply the same sort of logic about hammering your own scumbuddy in the face of replacement as I'm applying to Cybele.

So no, I don't think a Cybele wagon has much merit right now.

I'm curious how kuribo called out EA on his scumtell slip but somehow NEVER voted for EA.

vote kuribo

[massive]

kuribo

: Can you please show us where you "kept up the pressure" on EA after calling him out on his slip-up? After an initial exchange with EA about it, I see you then moving on to the q21/dcorbe argument and then saying that you aren't comfortable with how EA got five votes in three days. You say you wouldn't be comfortable with his lynch and that you claim that your "calling out" isn't necessarily even saying he's scum. Even after he asks to be replaced, you state your displeasure and think it a likely scum tell, but still you don't vote.

[massive]

I'm not saying you promised to vote and then didn't. I'm trying to figure out WHY you never voted. Call it 20/20 hindsight, but thanks to EA being scum, it certainly bears investigation.

[massive]

There was no danger of a quicklynch when you pointed out the scumtell. One (?) person was voting for EA and it was someone who had already, indirectly, pointed out the scumtell. So really you didn't even point it out in the first place. That was dcorbe. (Although he called it "breadcrumming" (sic).)

[massive]

I'm still happy with my kuribo vote.

[massive]

I didn't think the Empking bandwagon had much merit to it, and was more interested (at the beginning of it) in questioning dcorbe, who I thought behaved more scummily as we approached lynch. By the time I answered my own questions about dcorbe and voted for kuribo, I imagined that the empking bandwagon had stalled without much impact. The people who voted for empking AFTER I voted for kuribo were: roflcopter, who voted for him because he wasn't on the EA bandwagon; kuribo, who voted for him for claiming the three-mafia-tell wasn't a tell; and Cybele, who voted for him for (in my understanding) claiming the three-mafia-tell wasn't a tell after it turned up scum. None of those votes really connected to the initial bandwagon, and since I was (and still am) suspicious of kuribo, I was giving less merit to his vote.

I also don't put much credence in the "chainsaw defense" theory. I think dcorbe is scummier than q21.

[massive]

I don't necessarily think dcorbe is scum, I just think he's scummier than q21. I think I exhausted all my dcorbe thoughts at the beginning of the day, in particular [159]. That post not only contains what I thought was scummy about dcorbe's actions, but also the reason I don't think he's scum.

[massive]

I only find "uncounterclaimed cop" as an indicator of empking's innocence. I believe that his stated result is the result he got. Doesn't change the fact that (a) dcorbe acted scummy on Day One or (b) that my thought process, occurring before empking's Big Reveal, was inaccurate either. But thanks for making it look like I don't believe the cop.

[massive]

I was majorly responsible for finding scum, and if this town wants to be dumb and lynch me for it, go right ahead. If Empking survives the night, lynch him, and then dcorbe. If Empking is really the cop, then keep an eye on massive, because he just jumped right into a pointless bandwagon.

There are two things that I'd like you to explain here, kuribo.

1) Can you explain why the town should give you townie points for clarifying dcorbe's pointing out of EA's number-related blunder? And why you think you are "majorly responsible" for EA's lynch despite not actually voting for EA?

2) Can you clarify the second sentence? It seems like you are saying to keep an eye on me because I jumped onto a pointless bandwagon, when in reality I am the one who "started" this "bandwagon."

[massive]

Empking's posts have nothing to do with why I am suspicious of kuribo. I've stated my suspicions numerous times and his refutations have been of the "nuh uh" variety. The "number of Mafia" thing started on page 2; EA was lynched on page 6. Kuribo not only does not vote for EA during any of this, but says

Probably because I don't feel three pages of discussion is enough to warrant putting 5 votes on EA just yet?

He backtracks on his "100% tell" statement. He says three pages need more discussion. He claims responsibility for the lynch yet wasn't on site when the vote count went from four to seven (a small point, since it happened in about three hours). He claims responsibility for the lynch yet stands by his choice not to vote.

I dunno, none of that makes any sense to me. If you find a tell that, in your experience, yields 100% scum, why not vote? I haven't heard a reasonable response for that question yet.

I'm not sure what you are trying to infer, Cephrir.

[massive]

I want to state that I am here (just not on the weekends) and I resent anyone suggesting I'm not contributing. Just because I happen to get myself solidly behind lynches and contently leave my vote on who I think is most suspicious doesn't mean I'm not contributing. But I need to read (actually) the last three pages again and I imagine more-than-skim Mirth's gigantor post.

[massive]

I hate massive

I feel the love. *sniffle*

Not the amount you post, Massive, rather how a lot of you posts sound hollow or dont bring in anything new.

Do you really believe this? You were praising my reasoning as for the possible alignment of Cybele/dcorbe at the beginning of Day Two. I'm possibly the ONLY person who thought he had a good reason for voting kuribo (and I still maintain that it's ludicrous to say you are "pushing a bandwagon" when you aren't actually ON said bandwagon). I don't like being grouped with CC09, specifically.

Empking:

So you are saying that you think q21's "concern about godfathers" is more likely to come from someone town-aligned?

Who cares about a mafia godfather? Someone who plans to plant the seeds of doubt in all investigations.

And finally here's my intent to vote. I think this sentence is ludicrous. If the Mafia has a roleblocker (as a pro-town wouldn't block Empking), why do they need to "plant the seeds of doubt" about a godfather? A Mafia roleblocker can sit on Empking until the cows come home and render him useless. Do you think q21 would "plant the seeds of doubt" about JUST Mirth? Because that's what you're saying in that post.

FOS with intent to vote

on Lowell.

[massive]

I still am not seeing the "distribution of godfather paranoia" as a scum tell.

[massive]

First of all I don't believe its a mafia roleblocker. I believe Emp is the cop and Mod's comments were an indication that she forgot to send emp his result.

So, you are saying that you believe that Empking is a cop, you think that starkmoon failed to send out a result, and rather than giving him an ACTUAL result, told him he got no answer? With his target dead and revealed in the thread? Can you explain WHY you believe this? Because I honestly do not think you are this naive.

[massive]

Lowell:

It would be my expectation, at the very least, that the mod would say "Well, duh, look in the thread, he was town." It seems like the mod instead went out of her way to get Empking a result that indicated ... something else.

So let's suppose that your assumption is correct, that there is no Mafia roleblocker, for the moment, and go back to your original suspicions in post 408. Obviously this is in reference to q21, who you are voting for. Do you still believe that he is pushing the idea of a godfather?

[massive]

Mirth

: Which do you dislike more -- Lowell's adamant belief that our cop is 100%, or his belief that there's 100% no Mafia roleblocker?

[massive]

Cybele

: In 452, you seem to intimate that the best play for a Mafia roleblocker would be to NOT block Empking to throw suspicion on him? Do you think that's a better play than continuously blocking him?

I'm waiting on Lowell but I didn't like 463.

[massive]

massive- slightly scummy.

406 just looks weird. He sees a quick wagon building on someone and instead of joining, says he "wants to join." He's trying to push the Lowell wagon without taking the blame for it. Also, he's hiding. And when I accuse someone of hiding, you know it's serious.

If you are the type of player who will put someone at L-1 because "a quick wagon [is] building" then I'm afraid you and I are two different types of players.

[massive]

I am still "for" the wagon and still think you are a good lynch candidate. But I wasn't going to put you at L-1 simply for skittles and giggles. There was appropriate pressure, I made my position quite clear, and wanted to hear your response. I think you are struggling to present this as "suspicious behavior" just because it doesn't match 99% of reckless townie play, which this site has in abundance.

Do you think I "tried to have it both ways" during the first two days' lynches?

[massive]

I will say that I agree with q21: dcorbe's "hop-off" was much scummier than q21's avoidance of EA's bandwagon (in a vacuum). Probably what prompted Empking to inspect him in the first place.

CC09

: After reading the last couple of pages with Lowell's adamant refusal to claim, who do you think is "waiting for Lowell to claim"?

[massive]

CC09

: So, your decision on whether or not to hammer will be based solely on Lowell's role claim?

[massive]

I'd like to be on that train.

vote CC09

I had him written down as "likely innocent" when he made his request for the mod to claim for EA back on Day One. I missed that he also unvoted EA, saying he would hammer, but didn't in the end. He was near the Empking wagon (doing exactly what he's doing here, saying he wants to wait to vote until he hears a role claim) but stayed away from the kuribo wagon (saying he didn't believe kuribo's role claim) with that sort of "I told you he would be townie" pre-emption.

I'm more interested in this than Lowell, for now.

[massive]

Great, the game takes another grinding halt. People really need to time their vacations a little better in regards to when they become the suspicious focal point of this game.

(just so you know, I'm going on vacation around Aug 8 if you want to pencil me in)

[massive]

I do not like the post above me. I know you're desperate, Lowell, to NOT be lynched, but that's an awful post.

[massive]

This is too difficult. I have no doubt that CC09 will come back and Lowell will go away and while Lowell is away, CC09 will do the same level of scummy things that Lowell is doing right now, and I'll switch back and forth between them as they swap their activity.

I'd be interested in hearing Lowell's answer to Mirth's question.

And no one has pointed out that CC09 was supposed to be back on Sunday. So mod can you prod him as well?

[massive]

Empking posted yesterday. That's not THAT long ago.

I'd rather hear the answers to the questions that have been asked (that we CAN'T get answered by a replacement) rather than a claim. Let's not go charging off into claimland when we still have a couple of other decent candidates for today.

[massive]

I guess Cybele's re-read is, in fact, taking longer than a moment.

I'm down between CC09 and Lowell. As much as I want this game to progress, I'm not willing to (a) lynch CC09 pending his replacement or (b) lynch Lowell while he's on vacation. Anything else we can talk about?

[massive]

Can you answer why you WERE willing to vote for Lowell earlier in the day but are now voting q21?

[massive]

CC09

: Can you explain post 500? I have in my notes "hints at possible power role" but in the fact of your vanilla claim, that obviously is not the case. Can you give us some idea why you think the town might have only one other power role?

[massive]

This has been going nowhere fast for the last couple of days, hasn't it? =]

[massive]

Coheed

: Can you explain why Mirth's options are either to lynch you, or lynch Lowell?

[massive]

Hrm. Safe to assume Mirth stabbed Cybele last night? That seems somewhat random. With CC09 coming up townie, I would have expected she would have gone after one of the people on CC09's wagon.

Of course, of those people, Mirth is dead and Empking is the cop. So I guess I need a reread. I don't want to lazily go back to Lowell because this is probably it -- we need to be right here.

[massive]

Double post, hrmph. It was 2 hours. Y'all are slackers. =]

Upon re-read of the first 7 pages, here's what I saw. Open points for discussion is really what will serve us best right now, I think.

Post 60: q21 posts a rebuttal in his nonsensical "seriousness" argument with dcorbe (Mirth) and then offers a throw-away "it's what I would have done" in regards to EA's numerical blunder.

Empking's night one choice is consistent with his day one play.

I still don't get rofl's "chainsaw defending" argument, which he starts early on day one and continues to pound. Minus points for argument I don't understand. Plus points for sticking to your guns.

Post 111: Don't like rofl jumping off of EA after EA requests to be replaced.

Lowell was driving the train that pushed for lynching EA after he quit. He was also driving the train that ran up Empking early on day two. Call it even?

q21 picks back up his attack on dcorbe / defense of "seriousness" on day two. It's almost like he has blinders on and is unwilling to look at the events of the last lynch/night.

[massive]

Well, I -could- certainly have gone right back to why I voted for you yesterday. So for you to call me out as scum because I actually want to go back and find real reasons to vote ANYONE ... not just YOU ... really is a little ridiculous.

[massive]

196: q21 is the first to call for Empking to claim. True, it could have been an inevitability, as Empking was at L-1.

240: After Empking's claim and the banter back-and-forth between Empking and kuribo, q21 points out something I totally missed, and that was that he wasn't even voting for Empking at the time he called for his claim. And he hadn't made any argument saying he thought Empking was scummy. q21 claims his post was because it's, essentially, just what's done -- when someone gets to L-1, they claim. But if you don't find someone suspicious, then why would you want them to claim, bandwagoned or otherwise? It seems like you wouldn't demand a role claim in that case.

249: On the other hand, rofl votes for q21 here and doesn't think that's noteworthy. He's asked to explain the q21 vote and goes back to the 'chainsaw defense' of EA -- that's post 263. No mention of the demand for Empking to claim. He says himself that he's just going down his list, so either he already thought q21 was ripe for a run-up and didn't need to add more fuel to the fire, or he was just lazily ignoring the back-and-forth between q21 and Empking.

roflcopter

: In [286], you say that, and I quote,

"i thought erratus was making himself pretty obvious with how upset he was getting over being caught for something he must have considered to be a stupid reason."

You say something similar when you vote for EA, yet in [111] you unvote him when he asks to be replaced, saying you don't know if it's a town tell or a scum tell. Can you speak to why him asking to be replaced (as a potential town tell) overrode his anger at being caught for a stupid reason (as an obvious scum tell)?

That's through most of the second day. I'm still trying to re-formulate my thoughts about kuribo's lynch.

[massive]

Also, how was anything an "it's what I would have done". I simply said that I didn't think that EA thinking there were 3 scum was a scum-tell.

You dismissed the three-mafia slip-up by saying that you would have assumed there were three mafia also. The slip-up wasn't because EA assumed three mafia; the slip-up was because he said conclusively "you and your two partners". An assumption would have read something like "you and your partners" or "you and your presumably two partners." It's not the quantity, which I think people focused on too much on Day One; it's the absoluteness with which EA stated that number.

Looking at nightkills never leads anywhere, and I still think we got lucky with the lynch of EA. How come rotflcopter gets points for sticking to his guns and I get told I have blinkers on for sticking to mine?

rofl's suspicion is related to the events as they transpired -- he was suspicious of you for your "chainsaw defense" of EA, and that was relevant because EA had flipped scum. Your suspicions, however, were unrelated to EA's lynch and were just a continuing attack on dcorbe despite dcorbe ultimately being proven right about EA being scum. I don't think you can equate the two as you seem to want to do -- it's apples and oranges.

I asked him to claim because he was at L-1 and even though I wasn't likely to be the one hammering him I still wanted to see what his claim was. It wouldn't have surprised me if someone got eager and hammered him before he could claim.

Well, that's either scummy (blatant rolefishing) or supremely lazy. If you didn't think Empking was scummy, didn't have any desire to vote him, why call on him to roleclaim? If you're just saying "it's what people do" then that's horrible. Especially in this game, since Empking's roleclaim has had the effect of rendering him completely useless.

[massive]

So you attacked dcorbe on day one for what you thought was bussing EA, then when EA flipped scum, you felt vindicated and continued to attack dcorbe?

[massive]

If he thought EA was scum and dcorbe was bussing, why wouldn't he leave his vote on EA? Why would he unvote EA to go after dcorbe?

[massive]

Do you still think that dcorbe's play on Day One was worthy of your attention, given that EA flipped scum?

[massive]

Well, since no one seems to be making progress ... I guess I'll pick up my reread where I left off.

I still want an answer to my question for

roflcopter

in [617].

q21, roflcopter, and Lowell all probably should get scumpoints for their votes for kuribo in retrospect. Lowell probably less than the other two, as he at least remembers that EA had a similar temper tantrum when caught as scum, AND had asked questions of kuribo leading up to the lynch. But q21 and rofl seem to stay away from it (both intimating that they are against a kuribo lynch) until he "claims" ... and then they vote for him. Relevant posts: [317-343].

Day 3 (?): q21 buddies Mirth and follows her onto Lowell. Mirth calls him on it. She kinda drops it though.

[388]:

roflcopter

(again): If by virtue of the EA bandwagon, dcorbe and kuribo were "obviously not scum," how was it you came to believe his "claim" as scum during his lynch?

[392]: Mirth points out that blocking Emp / killing Cephrir (again) (over killing either Emp or dcorbe/his replacement) makes little strategic sense for the Mafia. Can anything useful be gleaned from this observation?

Same goes for the godfather discussion that happens right around here. We should probably look at that in light of Mirth/dcorbe actually NOT being the godfather.

[408]:

Lowell

, how do you feel about the likelihood of a Mafia roleblocker now?

[413]: q21 brings up Emp's sanity as another "questionable" that shouldn't be assumed. I can't see any reason to assume Emp's sanity would be anything other than "straight", simply because why would the Mafia roleblock him if dcorbe WASN'T town? The Mafia was assuming that Empking was a true cop. Why wouldn't q21?

[424]: Lowell continues to believe that there is no Mafia roleblocker.

[439]:

Empking

: You mention that you might not be reliable in finding scum but don't clarify, which is fine for yesterday. Now we're in LYLO, can you maybe be more specific?

Still not sure how Lowell avoided a roleclaim in posts [480-500].

That's my thoughts through today. Any discussions you guys want to have?

[massive]

Well, we know dcorbe/Mirth came up as innocent and was actually innocent, so we have a bit of hindsight that the Mafia already knew. At that point of Empking's roleclaim and target reveal, the Mafia already know he's either true or naive. If we continue the thought process with the assumption that the Mafia do have a roleblocker, Empking seems like the most likely target, since Mafia wouldn't want to wait to find out which of those he specifically is before blocking him. (Cause that would mean he investigated a Mafia.) I think the Mafia assuming 'true' in this case is probably their safest play.

(Well, their safest play would probably have been to kill Empking, but what do I know.)

I think also that the death of the doctor and the abundance of plain townies means they didn't need to try and block anyone else. dcorbe played his vig role under the radar, which I think is the right way to do it. (Too many people, especially on this site, are content to just shoot and shoot and shoot.)

In [377], you call Mirth "cop-cleared" with an indication that you were suspicious of her (as dcorbe) but now you aren't. That was Sunday, July 13. [413] happens on Monday. Can you talk about why you seem to trust her less by [413]?

[massive]

vote q21

[massive]

I think the best thing that happened to us, as scum, was EA's implosion on day one. I think it would have been REALLY hard to try and protect him in the middle of the game. (In all honesty, I forgot I was scum in this game on day one and was really happy when he flipped scum ... until I got a night PM from rofl and remembered he was on my team. *snicker*)

The town mislynches were entirely too easy. I don't know why people play this game if all they're going to do is give up.

Apologies to Cephrir for killing him two nights in a row. =]

[massive]

Empking was a known commodity and was rendered useless; I agree that it was much more important to take out the unknown confirmed innocent. =]

I was definitely worried when I was suspected out of the gates on the last day, because it seemed like it came out of nowhere! So I busted my hump on that last day. I'd go a few pages, ask a few questions, see if anyone would run with it ... no? OK, a few more pages ... I was really worried what would happen if I got to the end and nothing further had happened. =]