Mini 2096: I Don't Remember the Name of This Game

[The Fonz]

Like, I mean, look how well this works. Mastina's strongest town read isn't Gamma Emerald. This is a slam dunk man, apologies.

NP, it be like that sometimes. Let me know when you feel like waking up and helping me catch scum.

Vote: Lil Uzi Vert

[The Fonz]

Unvote, Vote: Cyrus62

This be a fine wagon.

[The Fonz]

VOTE: Cyrus62

(I hate these tags, they're hard to do on phone).

[The Fonz]

I just think we can sort Cyrus later so there’s no need to pressure what is inevitably going to be mislynch bait atm

Potentially. But I meta'd him, and you know what the first thing he said in his last scum QT was? Paraphrasing: let's try to out the doc ASAP.

What's he done here? Tried to out a vig ASAP. Whether or not we think that actually was a vig is by the by.

[The Fonz]

I'm reading Baezu's mistake the opposite way btw.

[The Fonz]

What mistake?

Repeating the question ten minutes later when the guy you asked it of is offline is a bit of a dick move.

I'll answer once LUV explains his Baezu vote.

[The Fonz]

So since someone else brought it up, imma spill.

I think Baezu town because she notices roster talking about waking up in a strange bed, apparently thinking that a potential scumslip. Karnage then calls Baezu out for not knowing we are on AF1.

Here's the thing: Air Force one is not mentioned in the town Role PM. It's mentioned in the first page flavor. Town role PM just says room.

So Baezu has read the town Role PM pretty carefully, but at best skimmed the bit of the first page prior to game start. What does that imply?

That Baezu got a town Role PM.

[The Fonz]

Scum probably get a similar PM, what

Irrelevant. Scum unlikely to push other players based on the contents of

their[/] role PM. Might push based on the openly available town Role PM, but that implies reasonable attention paid to the opening page.

[The Fonz]

UNVOTE: Cyrus62

VOTE: Dr. Drew

[The Fonz]

really
as an aside
i was hoping fonz was town
y u kill my dreams

Even when calling me scum you can't not sheep me
Let's be honest, I piss excellence.

[The Fonz]

Ok so why does someone just randomly not get to play this game?

thats a question for the moderator and not helpful during the game
after the game ask any questions like that if it's not obvious from the setup
like maybe we find out that the president is actually evil and elements is a good guy
when he shows up to restore our memories after something happens

so it would make sense in context but speculation like that right now is kind of meh

Actually. According to my role pm, the communists are the bad guys, BUT, in spite of them being the bad guys, the president is himself explicitly not a good guy. Flavor wise he's not necessarily evil but is AT THE VERY LEAST shady as fuck himself. So this game COULD be Evil vs. Evil.

Also, on that note: pretty sure that once I get my memories, I'll know who killed Elements. Flavor indicated that I have knowledge there, just not something that I remember.

I mean, evil vs anti hero maybe, but there is 100% definitely a town...

[The Fonz]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jackal711

BAAAAD vote.

[The Fonz]

Third party gambit would be dumb if she's out and out scum and I don't see the point wasting discussion on this.

[The Fonz]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jackal711

BAAAAD vote.

There hasn’t been any good ones so far.

And yes, that includes the one I casted for Baezu.

Urs is particularly bad, though.

For funsies, anyone else want to tell me why?

[The Fonz]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jackal711

BAAAAD vote.

There hasn’t been any good ones so far.

And yes, that includes the one I casted for Baezu.

Urs is particularly bad, though.

For funsies, anyone else want to tell me why?

wait no ive got it
jackal is posting a whole bunch in mish-mash games but not here
and that means hes lurking
and fonz thinks lurkers are usually town and shouldnt be voted
did i get it

Actually unsure if sarcastic (I'm not exactly noted as pro-lurker). The opposite was what I thought was true. I didn't see any other posts anywhere on site since his last post here. Since you have said this I have noted that Jackal did drop a couple of mishmash posts yesterday later than his last post here.

Nonetheless, he has made three posts

across the site

in the whole of the last ten days. Jackal looks like effectively an empty slot to me. Voting a player who appears to be 'lurking' but is actually just not online is a pretty common way scum try to fake scumhunt - it's of very low utility to town, but safe because you can avoid getting caught in the middle of whatever the main argument of the day is. Then he responds to me criticising his vote by saying that all the existing wagons are bad, which reinforces the feeling of scum hiding by parking his vote on an inactive.

If LUV had tried to rally other people to a Jackal vote - even so much as being like "Hey guys, let's get this lurker" I'd be less suspicious.

[The Fonz]

Actually fuck it

UNVOTE: Doctor Drew VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert

[The Fonz]

LUV, he makes a good point. Why do that and just leave when eventually someone would point it out. Either he is terrible at being scum, or he is a convenient wagon. Though I would appreciate him actually answering my question is asked in rvs haha.

Eh, I don't buy that it would definitely get pointed out. After all, I was the only one to do so. This defense: "Why would I/he do it as scum, it's gonna get called out" is WIFOM and basically saying Too Scummy to be Scum.

In terms of the stated town motivation for the vote, let's look at it. The idea that saying you can't explain your vote is scummy. It's ludicrous. Saying you can't explain generally means one of the following:

1) Ongoing game meta. Literally against the rules to explain.
2) Secret scumtell. I think secret scumtulls are kinda bull, but not scummy. Players who have them generally don't divulge them under mild pressure.
3) Role information. Actively bad to try to force these players to elaborate.

So how the effing eff is it protown to place a vote on a player well on his way to flaking out of the game to draw reactions, when those reactions if they even occur are likely to be null at best? Don't even get me started on the scumderp OMGUS of "Trying to infer the reasoning behind my unexplained vote is scummy."

(I'm catching up the last few pages, this may or may not turn into a post blizzard).

[The Fonz]

LUV, he makes a good point. Why do that and just leave when eventually someone would point it out. Either he is terrible at being scum, or he is a convenient wagon. Though I would appreciate him actually answering my question is asked in rvs haha.

Eh, I don't buy that it would definitely get pointed out. After all, I was the only one to do so. This defense: "Why would I/he do it as scum, it's gonna get called out" is WIFOM and basically saying Too Scummy to be Scum.

In terms of the stated town motivation for the vote, let's look at it. The idea that saying you can't explain your vote is scummy. It's ludicrous. Saying you can't explain generally means one of the following:

1) Ongoing game meta. Literally against the rules to explain.
2) Secret scumtell. I think secret scumtulls are kinda bull, but not scummy. Players who have them generally don't divulge them under mild pressure.
3) Role information. Actively bad to try to force these players to elaborate.

So how the effing eff is it protown to place a vote on a player well on his way to flaking out of the game to draw reactions, when those reactions if they even occur are likely to be null at best? Don't even get me started on the scumderp OMGUS of "Trying to infer the reasoning behind my unexplained vote is scummy."

(I'm catching up the last few pages, this may or may not turn into a post blizzard).

The fact is, on some level, every single judgment on every facet of a player's behavior, meta, and past, present, and future actions can be construed as wine in one way or another. Just because it's wine doesn't mean that the poison doesn't end up being in one of the glasses, and just because it's wine doesn't invalidate the argument.

I think you’re giving too much credit to an unexplained vote at that juncture. Votes of that matter, at that stage, boil down to gut as far as I know. So I’m not sure what you mean by ongoing meta as meta is an agreed upon consensus on how a player plays and I highly doubt that Jackal had a super secret scum tell on Cyrus either due to a clear lack of familiarly.

At the time of my vote, there was no way to know Jackal was on his way to flaking out. I’m having serious trouble seeing how you think these reactions are null. People now have a better read on me because of it and now I can read those currently voting me better.

You did not infer. You assumed. It’s not like Jackal vote was naked. He gave a reasoning for his vote which I later explain was the reason I decided to vote for him. For you to have inferred, you would have considered that. You also would have done some homework on me and realize that I don’t vote chronic lurkers as scum.

Eh, this is terrible.

1) I didn't ASSUME your motive. That would be assuming you're scum. I pointed out that starting a vanity wagon on a one post lurker is an action that has more utility to scum than town, and a possible mitigating factor (looking like you were genuinely trying to get him lynched) is absent.

2) Your stated motive is pretty shitty, I don't have time to rebut the whole of your response to why, but a one post lurker is about the last person you'd get useful reactions out of, and people are less likely to react to unexplained lone votes.

3) You expect me to do enough meta to conclusively prove a negative about a veteran player's scumgame, but can't do enough to see that Jackal has chronically limited access?

4) Fine. If it's so obvious what you would or wouldn't do as scum, tell me what exactly differentiates your scum and town games?

5) Who is your strongest town read atm?

[The Fonz]

Gamma I'm short of time atm can you take a look at Baezu's play since the wagon on her crumbled and tell me what you think?

[The Fonz]

Baezu has been meh, not a fan of the seeming lack of activity. But this post interests me.

Ya I guess she prob is third party but she’s been playing very Townie...

Also I think when Menalque is scum he writes up long posts analyzing everything so this is probably Town him

What games give you this impression? I'm honestly inclined to say your meta on Mena is accurate fyi.

Thanks. My concern is essentially that I had a gut vibe Baezu was playing in a pretty lackluster and ineffectual way since the wagon died, but now I've got time to look over properly, she's been lackluster all game. I'm still townreading her off the possible townslip i think.

So the game isn’t bastard but no one pointed out that mastina being lynchproof isn’t connected to her claim, that’s weird

The mod posted that she had been RANDOMLY selected to be lynchproof. Maybe the mod is playing semantics: ie she was randomly selected to get the role which is Lynchproof day one. But in a game where people have lost their memories, really not that weird.

as to not lynch are hero on day1 by mistake but maybe the guy that cant be lynch today is are hero.

Do we know we have a Hero (as in.. the role in the wiki?). I went back to reread my role PM and it doesn't mention anything about there being a Hero. It's just the standard town PM as the mod posted it on the front page.

I don't think cyrus means Hero as in the specific role. I think he's assuming it was a vig shot and doing the whole "Congratulating the Doc" thing. It's part of why I initially voted him as the 'scumtell' may have some validity in someone that newbish (the other reasons being the potential rolefishing I mention at the time and saying voting is dangerous, all of which are antitown enough for a really early nonrandom vote).

More like I think scum checks the PT first, which if entrance isn't confirmed doesn't seem possible
Essentially A50 was flying to free to be scum

Is the meta now for mods to send scum PT links separately to the role pm? In A50's third post, he implied he had received his role pm.

Re: A50's theory. I have a couple reservations:

1) Cyrus might not be bright enough to breadcrumb like that
2) Menalque says this once, and "Oh I can barely remember my own name lol" seems like the kind of jokey brush-off someone might make to an apparent rolefish, or just a joke (Like, regardless of alignments, I'd probably have made it odds-on someone makes that joke at some point in a game with this flavor).

However:

VOTE: Cyrus

You can be my hero baby <3

roster how do we know you good? where were you last night do you remember . because i can only remember my name .

Here, Cyrus is asking us to ask where he was last night: an in-game question. Juxtapose this with "I can only remember my name." This is implying Cyrus knows his

in-game

name.

now a little wouldnt it be funny if the cop and doctor didnt know they were pr lol. i mean i have no idea who i am right now besides my name .

Again, this implies that the potential doctor and cop might not know their roles, but Cyrus does know his name. This just doesn't read like Cyrus knowing his mafiascum username.

Bottom line: I'm not convinced of A50's breadcrumb theory. But Cyrus is definitely suggesting he knows his rolename. I

can

actually buy that Cyrus is enough of a VI to have not read the town role PM in the opening page as scum. After all, I'm theorising that Baezu missed it, and I think Cyrus is even less competent than Baezu. So he could have read his role pm which has a name, and not realised townies didn't have one.

UNVOTE: Lil Uzi Vert
VOTE: Cyrus62

I pretty strongly prefer Cyrus to Menalque if we're going to lynch off this tell. It just seems much more blatant in Cyrus' case, and more Occam's razor friendly (ie, if A50 is right they're both scum and it doesn't matter which order we lynch in, but I think there's a distinct possibility that Menalque was just joking while Cyrus actually scumslipped, so if only one of them is scum I think it's more likely to be Cyrus).

[The Fonz]

Is the meta now for mods to send scum PT links separately to the role pm? In A50's third post, he implied he had received his role pm.

The issue is, would he have had access to the PT? You have to give players permission to access PTs they are in.

Ah, OK.

What do you think about the more pressing issue of whether to lynch menalque or Cyrus?

[The Fonz]

I feel like Menalque might be a better lynch but we should be lynching cyrus if we think that was a scumclaim

Cool. How likely do you think it is that that is a scumclaim? Or to pin this down:

1) Do you think A50 is correct that some kind of scum breadcrumbing happened involving both Cyrus and Menalque?
2) If no to part one, do you think that Cyrus' repeated claims to know his name could plausibly be him referring to his mafiascum username?

[The Fonz]

I'd say yes to (1) but to also answer number 2 I don't think it's as he says it is

OK. So you think Cyrus is scum either way?

[The Fonz]

as i said before i have no flavor name it was me trying to see what others had to say others made a commet to this as well . when i was asking roster about it i wanted to know . how roster was good . the only name i know is cyus62v which we all know

I don't give a shit what others have had to say. I don't believe you. Why the hell would you say

i have no idea who i am right now besides my name

if you did not in fact, know your name? That makes no sense. You're caught, scum.

[The Fonz]

If you truthfully believe that Mastina was selected at random, you can't believe her third party claim. A lynchproof aligns EXACTLY with a third party who doesn't know their win condition.

When the mod says something explicit in thread, I assume it's true.

[The Fonz]

Spoiler:

Cyrus is completely incoherent, sure, but I think this whole stuff about scumslippijg makes absolutely zero sense.

The whole name thing to me just seems like Cyrus is waffling on about some weird semi-joke that he came up with at the beginning of this game.

Menalque or LUV (in a pinch) seem like way better lynches to me.

they have no since of humor roster i just going let it go maybe they can find the scum tomorrow after seeing it was a joke.

Nah, I have plenty of humor, thanks. I can see Menalque's use of the phrase as a joke, not yours. Who makes the same joke four times?

Plus, before "It was me trying to see what others have to say." Roster calls it a weird semi-joke and then Cyrus immediately and for the first time says he was joking.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, worth noting both Cyrus/Menalque voting the other in ways that look opportunistic/survival motivated.

[The Fonz]

Scum playing the pity card.

[The Fonz]

Yeah self-voting never helped anyone Cyrus...

its my thing if i cant convince no one then why bother i vote meqlin they think we are voting.

I mean that was something I noticed that made me think you weren't partners, but thanks for correcting me.

[The Fonz]

As opposed to someone like you who knows

exactly

who the scum are, amirite?

[The Fonz]

Cyrus: Accuses me of not paying attention
Also Cyrus: The Fronz

[The Fonz]

The joke



You

[The Fonz]

The joke



You

the joke is no one knows who they are mate or ..........

Hi kids! Peter Griffin from TV's family guy. See, this joke is funny because mafia is a contest between an uninformed minority and an informed minority, each trying to become the informed majority: the majority by catching all members of the hidden minority, and the minority by eliminating enough of the majority to outnumber them. Fonzie, by pointing out the

informed

nature of Cyrus' role, is alluding to Cyrus' membership of the informed minority. Made me laugh pretty hard I tell ya.

[The Fonz]

Cyrus, the only "main joke," I can think of is that you're hinting power, but you claimed the standard town Role PM.

[The Fonz]

Cyrus, the only "main joke," I can think of is that you're hinting power, but you claimed the standard town Role PM.

nevr once hinted power .

Well other than the quality of your play, I can't think what else the 'joke' would be. Probably the same level of 'joke' as you saying you knew your role name.

[The Fonz]

Is the joke that the mod WoTMed another player who had never played a non-newbie, but allowed Cyrus in?

[The Fonz]

Is the joke that the mod WoTMed another player who had never played a non-newbie, but allowed Cyrus in?

Yes.

Regretfully it doesn’t make Cyrus scum

Nope, his role PM does that.


I'm not unaware that Cyrus has done most of the things that make newbies in general Lynchbait - the poor English that makes him seem unintelligent and which is kinda painful to read, the inconsistency, the self pitying self vote, the vague "you are gonna regret this" threats.


He's still scum because there's no way that was a joke.

[The Fonz]

I have a number of Cyrus thoughts, some of which significantly cloud my scum read on him.

Firstly, though.

@Cyrus: Please explain the progression of your rosterfoster read through the game.

[The Fonz]

For the unfamiliar or those who may have forgotten: scum thrive on possible scenarios, while town generally aims to find what is probable. Cyrus spouting "what if" question is firmly in the zone of throwing out possibilities. In addition the questions he asks are rather bad anyway. Like if you were the vig, I don't see you self voting?

He's claimed regular amnesiac.

[The Fonz]

VOTE: cyrus which I think is L-1

I'll let somebody else have the fun of hammering

Explain.

[The Fonz]

I was more meaning why you put someone to what you thought was L-1 immediately after I said "whoah, hold up, I've found some things" and asked the player you voted a question.

[The Fonz]

In fact, UNVOTE: Cyrus62 for the moment.

[The Fonz]

Obviously, it's a paraphrase, not a quote. I didn't want to release the pressure on Cyrus before he'd answered me. Also, my other suspects Drew and LUV had disappeared from the thread the same time I returned in earnest, so I didn't really have anywhere else useful to put my vote.

But nor did I expect anyone to put him in position to get quickhammered (or say they were doing so) before I got my answer.

My meta dive made me sceptical of my own case, but I saw other things that concern me. I'm no longer convinced he's scum, but do want to keep interrogating him.

[The Fonz]

But when I said explain, Karnage, I wanted you to explain why you thought putting Cyrus to L-1 was a good town move when you hadn't really taken a position on him prior to that. What made you think he has to die?

[The Fonz]

Ok I can dig that

I still think he's likely scum but I'm interested in why you've changed your mind

Yeah, I wrote up a pretty big post explaining it then deleted it as I decided making a case against my own read would reduce my leverage to extract useful answers from Cyrus.

[The Fonz]

But when I said explain, Karnage, I wanted you to explain why you thought putting Cyrus to L-1 was a good town move when you hadn't really taken a position on him prior to that. What made you think he has to die?

Because I think there's a really strong chance he's scum.

I liked what Almost had to say about the "name" stuff and cyrus's posts the last couple of pages looks a lot like scum flailing.

Are we expecting people to ask permission before putting somebody at L-1 now?

Nope, but I would expect an explanation if you haven't expressed particular suspicion before. You've asked a lot of questions this game but it's unclear to me what you've done with the answers.

[The Fonz]

I think this whole thing on Cyrus is crazy, because in essence it’s a tone read on someone for whom English clearly isn’t the first language and who makes a lot of typos which make the posts hard to understand.

Don’t blame me when it flips town.

I'm basically certain English IS his first. He's from Canada.

[The Fonz]

VOTE: karnage

How's that re read going?

[The Fonz]

Cyrus, if you think Roster is scum, why did you ask him to stop defending you?

[The Fonz]

Cyrus, if you think Roster is scum, why did you ask him to stop defending you?

BINGO

Roster has been trying to keep pressure off Cyrus all game, and using the obvious argument about his play style. Even trying to AtE with me, referring to the one game we all three were in.

Making connections is iffy on D1, but big chance Roster is scum if Cyrus flips scum.

thiis is how scum doctor plays he hides then waits to add to the topic to make him self look good.

thiis is how scum cyrus plays he ignores the question directed at him by Fonz and shades the secondary response to the original question

He answered the original question before this post.

[The Fonz]

I actually think green!cyrus implies roster more than red!cyrus bc of

reasons

This'll be my last post tonight.

So the reasons I found to doubt Cyrus' guilt is 1) rereading he did go with 'joke' as soon as it was brought up, and b) he self-voted in his first game as town. Additionally, it is not necessarily the case scum know their names: not knowing their abilities but knowing their partners would allow for them to be in the same position as town, only, y'know, scum. That seems the simplest explanation of the flavor. (Though it still strikes me as weird that Cyrus decided to use the exact same phrasing three times - that does not feel natural as a joke).

Yet, two things really bug me. One is this "Real joke" which Cyrus keeps alluding to, the idea the mod is "laughing at us." That he can't tell us. I've seen this before, either from superderp town power roles who think it's great to act super scummy then at the last minute reveal their role thinking it 'proves' whoever is attacking them is scum, or from scum trying to imply vague bad consequences of lynching. Fucking out with it already.

The second is the Cyrus/Roster/Doc interaction. This has felt off all game. I noted before that in Newb 1945 that scum Cyrus decided to bus from the get-go. How does he react here? He starts by throwing an insinuation at roster with no vote:

roster and benzu seem to know something i dont know

Whilst also expressing suspicion of Dr Drew:

i dont trust the doc though

Clarifies this by saying Drew is playing the same as in a game where DD was scum.

Then he lists Roster as his top scumread, and doesn't include Drew. Doesn't actually vote for Roster. This is weird. Why not vote top scumread?

Then suddenly:

come to think of it roster is playing the same way as ae 1st game will have to see if i can find pts to where he acts diffent but i may need to bump him to town.

Early suspicion, lists as top scumread, doesn't vote, suddenly remembers he's playing the same as he did as town previously? Not making a lot of sense here. Vote remains on Drew despite Roster being claimed top scumread, and Doc not in top three.

264 Drew asks Cyrus about Roster's "subtle protection" of Cyrus. Following sequence of Cyrus posts: 265 Roster is just bad town. 271 actually he's sheeping. 273 I might be able to make a scum case on roster, give me time. 284 votes roster. 307, 313, 322 attacks Roster.

328, Drew shows up in Cyrus' top two suspects for no apparent reason. Like he's just pointed Cyrus in the direction of someone scummy, enough to make that person #1 on C's scumlist. This apparently makes Drew

scummier

in his eyes? That makes no sense.

334, says he is CONVINCED Drew is scum. Still voting the person that Drew told him to look into.

This just really looks like he's scum with Drew or Roster, and is trying to distance badly.

[The Fonz]

Whaddaya know, I couldn't sleep.

LYNCH ALL LIARS

VOTE: Cyrus62

[The Fonz]

You earlier claimed plain town amnesiac. You are now claiming vig. One of these statements is untrue.

[The Fonz]

LYNCH. ALL. LIARS.

[The Fonz]

I'm sick of these motherfucking VIs on this motherfucking plane!

[The Fonz]

Can we lurker hunt Momo?

[The Fonz]

Menalque prob town if Cyrus scum.

[The Fonz]

the

Try not to do anything that might be alignment relevant during this stage.

[The Fonz]

Well this isn't how I'd wanted my one comeback game after five years away to end, especially as I'm not sure I want to start another (I really got to hate being scum by the end of playing regularly). Maybe I'll replace into a slot a think looks obvtown.

The heated arguments we'd have had day two about whether to lynch Roster, Menalque or Mastina D2 would have been something.

[The Fonz]

Grey - at which point I'd be pretty sure I'd have wanted to scratch the Mastina itch.

[The Fonz]

I'd re-read and there were a few anti-associative tells betwen Menalque and Cyrus iirc. Probably wouldn't have been down with a Menalque lynch if i'm honest, which would have been shit in hindsight - he dropped one of my favourite individual tells.

[The Fonz]

I Also, I was legitimately just really busy IRL which is why my posting/catch ups were limited and I maintain that was a bad reason to scumread my slot. Mastina was scary tho.

Also, fwiw I submitted fonz as the NK

Nah, that was the individual scumtell I talk about above, and an excellent reason to suspect you. Scum and town tend to play differently when they have little time. Town motivated players will often try to ensure they do as much as they can with their limited time: naked votes, claims, really important questions. People who have time to whine in thread about how unfair it is when they are busy irl are usually scum. They try to use limited access as an excuse to lurk. These players also tend to continue whining postgame and claim that they'd have done the exact same thing as town, but they keep flipping scum!

Contrast: I did a sixty hour work week over six days from about three rl days into this game.

Were you actively trying to signal with the name thing?

[The Fonz]

Seems to me like Elements was in on it, and this was always planned to be a 12p game.